Shameless (Feat: Dr. Terrell Winder)

Summary

Gettin' Grown x Jade & XD — "Shameless" (Feat. Dr. Terrell Winder)

Date: June 16, 2026 | Host: Kia & Jade (w/ guest: Dr. Terrell J.A. Winder, special co-host XD)

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Overview

In this vibrant Kitchen Table Talk crossover episode, Kia and Jade team up with XD and guest Dr. Terrell Winder to dive into the experiences of Black gay men in Los Angeles, guided by Dr. Winder’s new book, Shameless: The Making of Black Gay Identities in LA. The conversation weaves personal stories, sharp cultural critique, and candid reflections on race, sexuality, stigma, family, media representation, and the power of chosen community. With laughter and vulnerability, the hosts and Dr. Winder unpack themes of identity, “unspoiling,” and what it means to craft self-worth and resilience in the face of societal stigma.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Dr. Terrell Winder & the "Shameless" Book

[24:55 - 26:30]

• Dr. Winder is a sociologist, urban ethnographer, and author of a book on Black gay identity formation in LA.
• The book is based on years of ethnographic research started in 2012, exploring how geography, community, and stigma shape identity for young Black gay men.
• LA’s unique demographic and geographic context, especially its sprawling layout and declining Black population, create distinct challenges and opportunities for Black gay community-building.

2. Geography and Access to Community

[28:05 - 29:51]

• LA’s “car city” status and poor public transportation heavily influence access to community, producing isolation or requiring significant effort (sometimes hours of travel) to reach safe spaces.
• Geographic and demographic context are central to understanding how Blackness and queerness manifest differently by place.

Quote

"Geography matters...the context of where people are growing up and those demographics really matter for how we think about what is blackness, how does blackness show up? And what is queerness, how does that show up in space?"
— Dr. Terrell Winder [28:36]

3. Communal Spaces, Gender, and HIV Funding

[29:51 - 33:33]

• Community spaces for Black gay men often exist thanks to HIV-related funding, resulting in resources skewed towards men and creating gaps for Black lesbian or femme communities.
• Dr. Winder’s research was shaped by the availability of men-centered physical spaces, often driven by public health interventions.

Quote

"Part of the reason why I was able to do this is because there’s so much of an emphasis on men and patriarchy... that’s a whole other thing."
— Dr. Terrell Winder [33:24]

4. Understanding Stigma and "Unspoiling"

[35:21 - 38:07]

• Dr. Winder clarifies distinctions: Stigma is the social “mark” attached to certain identities; discrimination is how people treat you because of that mark.
• Navigating intersectional stigma (race + sexuality) is uniquely challenging.
• The central idea of “unspoiling”: reshaping one’s own relationship to stigmatized identities, rather than centering acceptance from others or treating “coming out” as the primary act of self-affirmation.

Notable Quotes

• "Coming out is often framed as...accepting yourself, but I actually think there’s a step before that—unspoiling."
  — Dr. Terrell Winder [38:37]

• "Stigma is one of those cagey terms...I define it in the book as the actual mark of what it is to hold up an identity that is looked down upon in society."
  — Dr. Terrell Winder [36:50]

5. Intersectionality: Race, Sexuality, and Gender

[44:10 - 56:16]

• Many interviewees experience racial identity as "immutable," while sexuality feels more fluid or less rooted in communal affirmation.
• Family rejection tied to both race and sexuality can shape life trajectories, such as preventing someone from leaving home for college.
• Despite progress, stories of ongoing youth homophobia show that today’s environment is not uniformly accepting.

Quotes

• "You grow up hearing messages about Blackness…often more evenly tempered than you hear about sexuality."
  — Dr. Terrell Winder [44:10]
• "It was important for me to address the racial piece…race and sexuality presented as such clearly salient things."
  — Dr. Terrell Winder [55:03]

6. Family: Blood and Chosen

[82:14 - 89:13]

• The concept of “gay family” extends beyond ballroom; chosen family networks are vital, transcending biological kin and house structures.
• These new familial bonds offer acceptance, guidance, and accountability—often stronger than biological family relationships.

Quotes

• “Family is the primary socialization agent of your life…when you don’t have a family that’s supportive…you go out and you search.”
  — Dr. Terrell Winder [82:50]

• “They are creating family relationships…where they see them stronger even than their biological families sometimes.”
  — Dr. Terrell Winder [85:27]

7. Media Representation & the Power of Possibility

[70:22 - 76:59]

• TV shows like Noah’s Ark and Pose act as “possibility models,” expanding visions of what Black queer life can look like, even if they’re critiqued for being too “fantastical.”
• Representation matters: seeing diverse Black queer experiences on screen enables imaginative resistance and self-acceptance.

Quote

"It was important…to say we don’t have to put all the stereotypes on one body—Noah’s Ark gave an opportunity to see a group: some masculine, some more feminine…"
— Dr. Terrell Winder [73:54]

8. Spirituality, Religion, and Stigma

[60:36 - 63:47]

• Religion is a key source of stigma for many; Dr. Winder is working on a forthcoming project examining Black spirituality and migration away from Christianity—especially among women and queer individuals seeking affirming practices (hoodoo, IFA, etc.).
• The need for a “God that looks like them” and intersectional inclusion.

Quote

"A person’s God should look like them…that also means including women."
— Dr. Terrell Winder [62:32]

9. Class, Access, and Internal Community Divisions

[64:31 - 66:12]

• Wealth disparities fragment the Black gay community, affecting participation in nonprofits and dating pools.
• Many “rich gays don’t show up” unless on boards or staff—a reality shaping how community space is built and accessed.

---

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• "You slept like a white baby." — XD [07:54], joking about the joys of a new mattress/graceful aging.
• "My mother asked me…'the Lord brought it upon me to ask you…'" — Jade [48:49], on coming-out experiences in Black families.
• “You gotta wash your nuts. Like, we wash…” — XD [11:59], during a comedic riff about summer, Pride, and body odor.
• "If everybody in the world would say I like this movie, then they're gonna keep making the same horrible movie."
  — Jade [122:03], on the importance of critique and discourse.

---

Recommendations & Takeaways

• Shameless is for anyone navigating intersecting stigmas—not solely Black gay men. The processes of “unspoiling” can be applied universally.
• Community organizations, media, and chosen family are vital pathways for healing and affirmation.
• Societal change requires those who perpetuate stigma—not only its targets—to do the difficult work of unlearning and transformation.

---

Where to Find Dr. Winder & "Shameless"

• @bmoreTerrell on social media
• Book available from Amazon, Rep Club, NYU Press (code PRIDE40 for 40% off) — [93:12]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Dr. Winder intro & book overview: [24:55 – 26:32]
• Geography & LA context: [28:05 – 29:51]
• Queer community access & HIV funding: [29:51 – 33:33]
• Stigma, intersectionality, & unspoiling: [35:21 – 38:07]
• Race, family, and identity navigation: [44:10 – 56:16]
• Media representation (Noah’s Ark, Pose): [70:22 – 76:59]
• Spirituality & future research: [60:36 – 63:47]
• Class & internal differences: [64:31 – 66:12]
• On family (chosen & biological): [82:14 – 89:13]

---

Tone & Style

The episode blends humor, warmth, and real talk:

• Laughter and candid banter about adulting, Black family, and pop culture keep the tone lively and welcoming, even as the discussion navigates trauma, marginalization, and societal critique.
• The hosts' and guest’s personal disclosures foster intimacy and trust, giving depth to academic and social themes.

---

Final Thoughts

"My goal was to make something...portable for people who are navigating stigmas—no matter what they are... We need to rework how we feel about what it means to be who we are..."
— Dr. Terrell Winder [92:09]

"Shameless" offers both a scholarly lens and a compassionate roadmap for building self-worth and community amidst the interlocking forces of racism, homophobia, family expectation, and systemic neglect. The conversation urges us to push for broader representation, affirm expansive forms of chosen family, and—above all—unspoil the truths we carry about ourselves.

---

Book Links & References found in show notes & description boxes.

Transcript

[Jade]

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[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities.

[Jade]

So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Jade's Assistant]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail].

[XD]

Knock on our door Knock on our door We've been waiting for We've been

[Kia]

waiting for you We've been waiting for

[XD]

you where the kisses are hers and hers and his three's company too. I'm Chrissy in this scenario down in our rendezvous

[Jade]

Come on, trees company. Praise the Lord.

[Kia]

Praise the Lord.

[Jade]

And welcome back to the blackest show about nothing.

[Kia]

Oh, yeah.

[XD]

Praise the Lord. Blackest about nothing.

[Kia]

Yeah, it's a mashup.

[XD]

Don't you love it? Yeah. Mashup episode. We have a fantastic guest today and I how this mashup came to fruition was outside of my own general laziness,

[Jade]

lazy booking.

[XD]

I was like, how can I make this work for me? So our guest today is a wonderful academic or a person of academia. He's a doctor. How am I supposed to say that?

[Kia]

He's a sociologist. He's the sociologist.

[XD]

Oh, thank you. Okay, wonderful. He's a sociologist and he's also a black homosexual man.

[Kia]

And so he's written a book that is out.

[XD]

He writes a whole book about being a black homosexual man. So we brought the worlds together. So, so sorry. Getting grown audience, y' all are fine. I'm just.

[Kia]

Yeah, there's. What do you apologize for?

[Jade]

I know, yeah, it's a good time. And you know, it's. It's information for all.

[XD]

It is exactly Oh, I don't mean the kitchen table. I just meant our shenanigans. But it's all, oh, oh, oh, oh.

[Jade]

Well, in that case, then. How was Yalls weeks? What's been happening? What's the tiaga? What's going on?

[XD]

Let's start with Takia.

[Kia]

I'm doing okay. I'm just, you know, making my way when I can. I'm keeping my head above water. Making a way when.

[XD]

How you feeling in the season? I know this is a. A season. How you feeling?

[Kia]

I'm hanging in there. You know, I am thinking a lot about what is going on in the world and my family just negotiating a lot of change and just trying to allow myself the space to sort of experience it in real time with gratitude. Like, you know, I mean, it's hard, it's heavy, but I'm still able to look around and express gratitude. You know, I think, I think, I think I share with both of you. Like, you know, at this time, when I think about Brian, Brian's passing, it is hard and I don't know that it will ever not be. But one thing that helps me negotiate that is to think about all of the ways in which, you know, I have. God has given me people and relationships and, you know, family to help me through it. And, you know, I. I see both of you as, you know, expressions of that. So I'm grateful for all the ways that y' all have been holding me up for the last 10 years, you know, and I'm gonna miss my brother for the rest of my life and. Yeah, that's okay. I'm supposed to.

[XD]

Yeah, absolutely. And we love, you know, we love you.

[Kia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jade's Assistant]

Thank you, guys.

[XD]

Time as family here at the, at the Mesa. Yes. Yeah, I'm cool. It's end of year. That means these are going to be home. But also, like, it's kind of nice that I won't have to wake up at 6 o' clock in the morning. But, you know, lots of end of year activities. Your girl was getting it yesterday stories hitting her ones and her twos.

[Jade]

I was hitting my, my rainstick.

[XD]

I was like, come on. Noah was up there killing the rest of the kid. And I know. I was like, it's not accomplished embarrassing

[Jade]

a little white girl.

[Kia]

She was trying to keep up. I was like, look at her.

[XD]

She was, look.

[Jade]

And she did, she did her little stone cold. She did cluster bones.

[Kia]

Right?

[Jade]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've never seen an 11 year old in a knee brace. I was like, work stone Cold diva.

[XD]

She was a diva. I had to. I had to make sure, you know, as the mom with the best dancer, I had to be like, you did a fabulous job.

[Jade]

Absolutely. But see, and that's the thing.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And.

[Jade]

But that's the problem why I don't have children. Because now I got a lot. Because you'd be absolutely Miller. Yeah. I don't be second.

[Kia]

That's first.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Last.

[Jade]

Absolutely not.

[Jade's Assistant]

Yes.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

We are winners here. You better come in third.

[Kia]

That's right. That's right.

[XD]

How are you XD outside of. Exactly.

[Jade]

I am better. And I'm going to tell you why it is so. And it's so interesting that we have Dr. Winder on the show today because years ago he told me, invest in your rest. Um, because it is so important, a restorative rest. It changes your heart, mind and everything. Yeah. And so I've been struggling on my mattress for. I talked about on the show for a while, but I made a big boy purchase.

[Jade's Assistant]

I know.

[Kia]

That's right. Adulting real time.

[Jade]

Yes, yes. And I was like, when does this get so expensive, honey? The whole time, honey. And I bought myself a new mattress.

[XD]

Absolutely.

[Jade]

And with an adjustable frame. Because I'm a person of a particular age.

[Kia]

That's right.

[Jade's Assistant]

Yes.

[Kia]

I love that.

[Jade]

And when I tell you it came yesterday and I. I rested like the dew in the morning. I know.

[XD]

That's right.

[Kia]

Judy Paquelle.

[Jade]

Okay, that's nice. Simply rest.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Jade]

That's what I did.

[XD]

You slept like a white man. Like.

[Jade]

Yeah, like a whole white baby.

[Kia]

Privilege.

[Jade]

A whole white baby.

[XD]

A white baby.

[Jade]

I haven't even had coffee today and I am on. I am on the zest for Vida. Yes. That's what happens when you get a good night's sleep. I can't wait to go to bed again.

[XD]

You're like, who was I? Who was I all that time?

[Jade]

I was a total bitch.

[Kia]

It's like, stuff be happening now. You be like, oh, wow, we were poor.

[Jade]

Woo.

[XD]

What a tough.

[Jade]

I woke up, it was like Luther's version of can you feel a brand new day.

[XD]

It was calm and a blitz. See, the best version, actually, the best version.

[Jade]

Cuz I don't believe in the raptress. Diane.

[Kia]

Jesus, Lord.

[Jade]

DJ Green Te.

[XD]

She was my.

[Kia]

Please.

[XD]

You always talked about Green.

[Jade's Assistant]

Please.

[XD]

I got other names, but I'll leave. I keep saying I'm. I keep edging this conversation about Diana Ross, but I will have it all

[Jade]

the way the articulates. Don't think I don't know from beyond the gates it's the same story.

[XD]

It is.

[Jade]

What else happened this week? I went outside. It is funny because Tarell had his book thing yesterday. So I went and I always laugh because our friend Darnell, who wrote a book, he talks about how like when gays get in places, it always felt like serial deaths. So.

[Jade's Assistant]

So

[Jade]

it was that reparations club, which is a wonderful black queer owned woman owned bookstore. They have wonderful events in the West Adams neighborhood. Please go support them.

[XD]

Link in the description box.

[Jade]

Yeah, but I had. But I laughed because I sat down and I was like cereal dust.

[XD]

Cereal dust. Now is this across the. All the letters? Is this just.

[Jade]

Oh yeah, yeah. Cereal dust. Yeah, it's everybody. It's when a group of. Of. Of alts kid me. Let me not say all because there are some folks, there are some people in the. In, in. In the Alphabet that aren't that little tart.

[Kia]

You know what I mean?

[Jade]

Historically, you know what I mean?

[XD]

But that was.

[Jade]

I'm not saying.

[XD]

I'm gonna say this meme though. I saw this be and it was a non binary black person of the all party community. Yes. Emo and such, you know, I'm saying EDM type, you know, and you know,

[Jade]

black with a bang.

[XD]

Yeah. They might have a natural in the back, but they flat iron the baying. Yeah, exactly. Wow. Some sort of leather. And they're going to dance, you know what I'm saying, with some. Oh yeah, glow sticks. But this, they all look like Leroy from Fame. It. So it's that trend.

[Kia]

Jesus.

[XD]

It's that trend where they like have the Kendrick like and it's the fast way that goes. But I breathe, I bleed different. So they were like being free and black and going to a queer party and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it gets sad with the other part of the music. They were like. But they stink.

[Jade]

Listen, I've been to plenty of prides, plenty of just functions with, you know, it just be rank. You know what I mean?

[XD]

You know, some be musty. You know, and that's just what it is. Straight be musty.

[Jade]

That's why I don't like the fact that pride is in the summertime. Because it's. It's hot. Men stink.

[XD]

Yeah. Real bad. Yeah.

[Jade]

And I know there's some of you, some of you divas are into that.

[Kia]

But around, I cannot relate.

[XD]

Girls, you've got a crazy.

[Kia]

It's something.

[XD]

You gotta wash your nuts. Like we wash.

[Kia]

It is physiological differences. When I think about like with Brian, you know, Brian was a large man. When he was a teenager, though, those hormones and grandma used to tell him he used to have to disrobe in the basement, leave them stinking clothes downstairs, put them directly in the washing machine.

[XD]

Like, how are you permeating all the walls of every room?

[Kia]

Because quite literally, you cannot walk that mess through my house.

[XD]

You must.

[Kia]

You must not. You cannot put them directly into the washing machine downstairs. And then you can come upstairs and wash her behind, but you may not parade that stinky funk all throughout my house. That's not. It's a non negotiable.

[Jade]

I had laughed the other day because I was on the Internet talking about, like, when I first got told to put on deodorant.

[Kia]

We should all think about it.

[Jade]

And it's always like, yeah, and it's always like, I had text waiting. You know what I mean? Like when you thinking when you get told it's been too late, it's been lingering for a while. Had to be like, damn, enough is enough. So I remember I was on my way home, and normally, you know, I would go to Carl's Jr right. Cause that would be my afternoon snack or whatever. Because on the way home, and my grandmother was like, ah, stop. She went over to pnw, which is Piggly Wiggly, and she got me Mitchum. And that's how I knew Mitchum. And you know, old black people think Mitchum and deodorant. A deodorant, right? Like, it's so good you can skip a day. Yeah, don't. But, yeah. And when I tell you, she was like, don't you dare miss a day.

[XD]

Yeah, I had tusks.

[Jade]

I was like, that's crazy.

[XD]

I had tussie. And then you. You know how I told you about that arrow with my parents? So then I got the crystal. We were trying. Or maybe we tried the crystal first. The one that. No, you wet it.

[Kia]

Really?

[Jade]

Oh, yeah.

[XD]

And then it was like, oh, that don't work. And then.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[XD]

And then I think we jumped to not secret. What was the other one?

[Kia]

I had secrets.

[XD]

Maybe it was Mitchum. Actually. Sure it was Mitchell. My use. No, I never. I never was a shirt.

[Kia]

My mom. My mom. My first was secret. And then I remember when degree came out, this was a thing.

[XD]

Degree. That was it.

[Jade]

Yes.

[Kia]

When degree came out, I remember wanting degree and my mom saying something ridiculous like, degree was for boys. And I was like, girl, like, what? You sound crazy.

[Jade]

Because it was Mark. It was heavily.

[Kia]

It was heavily marketed to.

[XD]

Yeah, it had a baby powder degree.

[Kia]

But that. That was later they they came out with those sort of flavors a little later. But I remember, like, the original Degree before there was any sort of. Kind of different fragrance options. Yes. And I remember it coming out. My mom was like, yeah, you can get that for your brother, but you need to get Secret. Because I was like, girl, what? And then I said, my logic was, if it's strong enough for a man, then it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter.

[Jade]

Hello. That's why I wear secret today.

[Kia]

Period.

[Jade]

Okay, listen, Branding. Branding and commercials get me. This is why they need to go back to proper commercial advertising and jingles if they want me to buy stuff in this horrid.

[Kia]

While we're talking about theme songs for your television programs as well. Because I'm tired of jumping right in.

[Jade]

Because I'm tired of just.

[Kia]

Exactly.

[Jade]

And, you know, that's it. Like, that's lazy.

[XD]

It is lazy. I mean, it gives you more show. I'll say that. But there was something very.

[Jade]

They don't have to do nothing else. They could add the extra two minutes.

[Kia]

I mean, they could just put it in and post. Like, it's literally just, you know, put it in at the start.

[Jade]

They're using. They're using AI to ruin everything else. You know, use it. Be effective at the intro in the beginning.

[Kia]

Something.

[XD]

Wait, what kind of deodorant do you use now? Kia.

[Kia]

I still use Degree.

[XD]

You still use degree and xd. You use Secret still.

[Jade]

I don't use Mitchum because it causes like. Like, you know how it is with it. Yeah, it's too much, I think.

[XD]

I wear old lady deodorant. I think.

[Kia]

What?

[XD]

Well, I wear two deodorants, right? Because, you know. Okay, first of all, I got off the natural train, so sorry to disappoint girls.

[Kia]

I hope the girls are not disappointed.

[XD]

I use one. I use an Arm and hammer lavender rosemary situation.

[Jade]

Oh, the essential one.

[XD]

Yeah, I use that. It's summertime, so I don't have time to be playing around. You know what I'm saying? I'm not one of those girls that's like, I don't.

[Jade]

You can't be out here.

[XD]

Stink very much.

[Kia]

I'm like, no, no, I think we're at.

[XD]

If I go to. Listen. Yeah. If I go to sleep and don't put on deodorant, I might be musty.

[Kia]

I never wanted to play those games.

[XD]

So as a. As a college student, y' all know, I was born 80. I used to go into Neiman Marcus to go get my deodorant.

[Kia]

Oh, Very classy. Well.

[Jade]

Oh, you are very old.

[Kia]

Well, cashmere miss.

[XD]

So then I got for a long time.

[Kia]

What did you wear? What the hell? Cashmere miss.

[XD]

I have boundaries, thank you very much.

[Jade]

She's a red door cow. You are.

[XD]

But I went back to my daughter carrying cashmere mist and it's not leading me wrong.

[Kia]

Elizabeth Arden. Red door dolly.

[Jade]

I call it like I see it down the middle.

[XD]

You should. I would felt especially old last night because I went to shout out to Mandy and Wheezy. I went to the horrible decisions one night only.

[Kia]

Okay, Cool, cool.

[Jade]

Oh, okay.

[XD]

Live show at Sony Music Hall. As you all listen to this, I believe this was last week. I went with Antoinette and Crystal G. Very nice, Jasmina. And you, would you all like to see what your crystal Jean looked like at the show? So it was a fabulous show. Wonderful production.

[Kia]

Awesome.

[XD]

Very sex positive. Okay. It was great for the beginning of Pride.

[Jade]

Let's put on a good time.

[XD]

Okay. Man, I've never had Mel burlesque before. He had a nasty hill and got down to a corset. It was. It was fabulous. And the girls did a great job and it was entertaining. And your sister also was having the time of her life.

[Kia]

I'm not surprised at all. Nothing about that for the listeners. Surprising to me.

[Jade]

That is very much on bristle and

[XD]

a mask that is very much on brand. That's on brand.

[Kia]

On brand.

[XD]

No, but it was a good time. But it was. I was out on a Tuesday particular.

[Kia]

Good for you.

[XD]

There was candle wax and paddles.

[Jade]

You thought she was grown.

[XD]

I didn't know who the fuck I thought I was.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Actually.

[Jade]

You was grown or young. It was.

[Kia]

I mean, a school night. It's giving. It's giving.

[XD]

We have a fantastic kitchen table. Slash.

[Kia]

I'm excited about it.

[XD]

After the break conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So should we get to it?

[Kia]

I think we should.

[XD]

I feel like growing up, I was always given some unsolicited advice about one thing or another. Don't wear skirts on the bias. You're too hippie. Don't wear a line skirts. Your legs are too short and you look like a pink lady. You want to lose weight? Try this diet with maple syrup, cayenne pepper and lemon. Or maybe this one where you could eat unlimited meat and cheese and butter. Oh, your hair is natural. Then you must try this coconut oil banded twist out method. Honestly, it's been exhausting. My body doesn't want unlimited cheese and chicken breasts and my hair hates coconut oil. The moral of all of that, I had to figure out what works for me. Speaking of what works for me and my daughter, Baskin Lather, I love that they have a line of various products that target both of our individual needs because each, even though we have locs, we have different hair needs. Neither one of us can go a day okay, not a single solitary day without the hydrating mist. It's part of the morning routine, just like brushing your teeth and washing your face. Just as essential. It refreshes our locks and it locks in moisture, and you absolutely need that. My daughter's hair really loves the stimulating scalp and hair bomb. So you pair that with a hydrating mist and it's been a game changer. All right. And keeping her hair hydrated and her scalp happy because it doesn't clog the scalp, which is really nice. And I personally love the hair elixir oil. It helps to strengthen my hair and keeps it from shedding and breaking off. I also love that neither one of us are having issues with product buildup and our hair is growing and it's visibly healthier than when we were using some other products that claim to have our best interest at heart and head feel me more than anything. I love that Baskin Leather is hair care that started with family love. A little history for you. When dermatologist misdiagnosed CEO Shana's younger sister and said her hair may never grow back, the family took things into their own hands, which, you know, is my type of time. Shana and her mother researched and formulated their own scalp and hair oil to stimulate growth and retain length. And today her hair is down to her hips. And it don't lie. Baskin Lather's hydrating hair mask combines aloe vera and avocado oil to reduce frizz, treat dryness, detangle and redefine curls. And their stimulating scalp and hair bomb that I mentioned earlier nourishes and hydrates hair from the inside out with 100 natural ingredients that can penetrate hair strands without clogging pores, which is very important when used regularly. Users have seen results in about 3 months. Explore Viral bestsellers and products of healthier hair of all types from Baskin lather. Go to baskinlatherco.com and use code grown for 20% off. That's 20% [e-mail] code grown.

[Jade's Assistant]

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[Kia]

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[XD]

Oh, my God, I forgot about the clap.

[Kia]

We have made the table. The little, you know, we've given the kitchen table a little bit more length. And we are joined by some very special guests. Y' all know friend of the show, our brother XD is here. But we're also very excited to welcome a special guest whom I will introduce right now.

[XD]

Yes.

[Kia]

Terrell J. A Winder. Received his PhD in Sociology from UCLA. The University of California, Los Angeles in 2017. He is an urban ethnographer whose research areas include race and ethnicity, sexuality and sexual health, qualitative and quantitative research methods and education. His current research examines stigma response processes among stigmatized populations negotiating more than one stigma simultaneously. His research has been published in qualitative sociology, AIDS patient care and STDs, the Journal of Racial and Ethnic Health Disparities and the Journal of Medical Internet Research. His work is also on mobile applications as a health intervention and he's been covered in the LA Times. He's here to talk about his latest book which is out today. It is a book called Shameless, the Making of Black Gay Identities in la. It's a multi method examination of anti gay stigma response among young black gay men in Los angeles. Everybody, welcome Dr. Winder to the kitchen table. Hey Dr. Winder. And welcome.

[Jade]

Hello.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Thank you, thank you. Thanks for having me.

[Jade]

Yes, yes. So this is a really interesting book and a timely one being that it is pride, but we're coming at an intersection of life where we're being attacked by a whole bunch of shit. Right. So talk to us a little bit about this book. We have questions, but you introduce and let us know about your baby.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah, happy to do so. You know, Shameless was a long working process. You know, I started data collection for the project probably in 2012 in Los Angeles and you know, spent over four years kind of going and collecting data with, with a group of guys in LA and learning just how they were navigating what it meant to be black and gay in Los Angeles. And I kind of start off in the book saying, you know, I'm from Baltimore, so my orientation to what it means to be growing up as a black person is different than what was happening, I think in la. I think people sometimes think of LA as very black because we have these like, you know, black movies. Like, you know. Exactly. It's set in la, but it's actually been, you know, the population of black people has been declining over time. And so I was very interested in like, how are you all learning what it means to be black? What does it mean to be gay in a city, you know, the second largest city in our country and that's very geographically different. And so the book is an opportunity for me to kind of tell their stories in connection with my own, but also thinking about how do we respond back and reject some of those stigmas and negative experiences in everyday life.

[Jade]

Dope T V. So even you talk about in the beginning about the geographic layout of la and how that is indicative of how people establish community. Can you talk about that in the sense of like comparing it to Baltimore or like New York City or anything in places where you've lived?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah. You know, I think one thing that's true about la, right, is public transportation is not winning any awards.

[Jade]

And not even that ride the D campaign. They got influences talking about priority.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

It's not that. Right. You know, but that's part of it. Right, that, you know, la, to me, when I got here, I was like, why does it take an hour and a half to go 10 miles? Like, you know, I can see where I need to be, but I'm starting on the highway. And so, you know, understanding how people are navigating the physical space I think helps to understand how people are setting up their identities and who they are. Right. Like, you know, who you encounter, who you don't encounter is shaping how you see yourself. And so me, it was interesting coming from Baltimore and New York City, where, you know, it doesn't take an hour and a half to go 10 miles or, you know, you can hop on the train and go where you need to go. And, you know, seeing that play out in LA was very interesting to me. So I think, you know, at the core of it, what I'm saying is, like, geography matters. So, like, it's important for us to consider, like, where people are growing up and the context of the, like, the demographics of that place really matter for how we think about what is blackness, how does blackness show up? And what is queerness, what is gayness, how does that show up in space? And so that's kind of what I emphasize there. And I highlight kind of, you know, people are traveling an hour, two hours, you know, wherever to get somewhere to meet people, to hang out with, community. And I think it's important to, you know, to highlight that even though we have so many resources in la, it's not equally dispersed across the city in location.

[XD]

I have a question for you, actually pre. I guess pre book, because in order for you to write this, you had. This was part of research and also just adaptation to a new space. I have a. A good friend out in la, her name is D is Nia. And she put together these supper clubs specifically for lesbian and femmes in a black lesbian and femmes in la, because they feel like they have not had any spaces and those spaces have predominantly been for black gay men. I mean, for gay men and specifically for white gay men, which I'm sure we're going to get to that how did you go about. With all of these challenges that you. That you just spoke about, how did you go about really finding your community out there?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

You know, that's a great question and a great point. I think when you talk about the supper club and the creating a space for. For lesbians and particularly, I think, for women, we don't have as many organizations that target women. We don't have as many public spaces for women to do that, especially for black lesbians, women. So one of my early mentors kind of did a similar thing. She used to host these parties, I'm gonna mess it up. I think it was called Chocolate and wine. And she and her wife used to. That's how she would recruit people for her. Her work. And her book is Invisible Families, about black lesbian mothers and black lesbian motherhood. And so I think how gender plays a role in who can access what spaces is important. And so in my case, because I was looking at men and mostly CIS men, there are a lot of organizations and spaces targeting them, namely for hiv, NSTI prevention, care and treatment. And so, you know, a lot of the organizational pieces of the work happen because of hiv. It was important for me to say that the book is not about hiv. And I've made that comment a lot, that when I said I. I was working on a project about black and men, people would often say, oh, so you're studying hiv? And I have to say, well, no, you know, and I resisted that for a long time. But I think it's important to acknowledge what are the kind of spillover effects from this kind of funding, you know, system that created these organizations where people are getting money to find people who are positive. Right. And so because black gay men and black women, queer men in particular, have been such a target, both impacted by the epidemic, but also being targeted now to be found through organizations, it made it some ways easier to locate physical spaces. There's also the gendered aspect, which is like, most places are catering to men. Even gay clubs, gay bars often are catering to men. And so it wasn't as hard to locate spaces physically where they would be. But I think that's a key point when people ask me, like, why are there. No, you know, why didn't I also include, like, queer women or that? And they really weren't there in the space as much.

[XD]

Because also, you're not a queer woman. Like, I'm not.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

But if they were there, you know, I mean, I feel like it's, you know, if they're in this physical space, you. I would Include them. Right. But I think it's important to highlight, like, there are not as many resources that are targeting them. I think, you know, many of the women colleagues of mine I know who are fighting to say no. Black women need to learn about prep. Black women need to know about pep. They need to know about these things that's coming much later. They're always being pushed as an afterthought. And I think it's important to highlight, like, part of the reason why I was able to do this is because there's so much of an emphasis on men and patriarchy, but that's a whole other thing.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Even as a personal note, I worked on a. A movie, and a part of. A. Part of the director's push and a part of, like, financial stuff was attached to the Black AIDS Institute. And I've always. It was always been this adage of, like, there's always money in aids. And I always think that it's so interesting how that money is funneled into other usage, you know, to create, like, third spaces that we all need, which we'll talk about in a little bit. But, you know, I just find it interesting how everything is just relegated to this epidemic and not anything else that have stuff going on. You know what I mean?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah.

[Kia]

Yeah. To me, the book is really. I think it's really cool. I think it's a different sort of spin because I know there are lots of literature and so the discourse around identity and how identity is shaped by communal spaces. Right. And what role that plays in, like, our socialization and how we come to know identity. What I think is really interesting about Shameless is that you talk about this through the lens of stigmatization and was wondering if before we sort of get into some of the deeper or more nuanced questions around some of your choices to do that, could you sort of just explain, like, stigmatization, like, one on one, like, for anyone who's coming in and wanted to understand, we know that negative stigmas exist. But, like, you know, I think your book kind of lays out what are the things that inform them and sustain them and how we come to respond and interact with them. Just talk to us a little bit about. About that, because I feel like that's sort of a core premise in the. In the work.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

That's a great question. I'm gonna see if I do it justice. But I'll say, you know, one of the things that was important for me in the book was I think we use a lot of these terms interchangeably. Stigma, stereotype prejudice, discrimination, racism, even.

[Kia]

Yep.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And I in the book go all the way back to. I think one of the best examples of stigmatization is probably the Scarlet letter, right? The Hawthorne text, where it's like, okay, here's someone who committed adultery putting this big letter on her. It's the mark. Right. So what are these identities, these behaviors, these things that we do that leave us with a mark socially? And then, you know, differentiating that from discrimination is like, when you're treated differently because of that mark. Right. So what does it mean to walk through life with this particular mark? And a lot of work, I think, focused on how do people navigate one stigma. Right. But what does it mean to live at the intersection of multiple stigmas and to be dealing with kind of intersectional stigmas. So the example I gave about HIV is, I think, a good one, where it's like, you know, there are stereotypes about what it means to be black. There are stigmas associated with that. There's stereotypes and stigmas associated with what it means to be gay or queer. But the idea that everything that's going on in black, gay or black queer men's lives is HIV related or like, you know, that's the primary focal point, I think, is a unique kind of intersectional example of how that's the label. Right. The moment where I say, you know, I'm studying black gay men, they automatically think that that's what it's about. And I get to say, well, no, that's not the only thing that, you know, that's happening. And people are. They're human. Right. So it's allowing to, you know, kind of prep full embodiments of who people are. And so to me, stigma is one of those kind of cagey terms that I think people hear it all the time, but can't really name what it is. But to me, I define it in the book as like, the actual mark of what it is to have, you know, to hold up a. An identity that is looked down upon in society.

[Kia]

Like, the cost of it. Like how. What it cost you socially.

[XD]

Yeah.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And also draw on the du Bois. Like, W.E.B. du Bois talks about, like, the burden, second sight. Right.

[Kia]

Like, yeah.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

What does it mean to go through life with the burden of having to see yourself through the eyes of other people all the time.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[XD]

That's exhausting. That's. And that's a double identity is what it is, essentially, because you're existing and then you're like, let me see how other people perceive me. And you've got to Carry that as well. That's so much responsibility. Which. Speaking of responsibility on people that they don't deserve, I want you to go into a little. Go into the coming out, what you were talking about coming out and how coming out is for other people as we're talking about stigmas.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah. You know, a lot of the. The research, I think, in literature about how people navigate stigma is trying to make other people comfortable. And I think coming out is often framed as this, like, revelatory moment where you finally, you know, accept yourself. But I don't. I actually think there's a step before that, and that's where I kind of position unspoiling because I think people sometimes come out and they don't like themselves or they're outed and people know and they. They still haven't made, you know, the decision to come to terms with that identity themselves.

[Jade]

Right.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And coming out, I think force, you know, kind of prioritizes other people.

[Jade's Assistant]

People.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And it's like, I'm gonna share this with you, I want you to know. And then people are upset you didn't tell them and all this other kind of stuff, you know. So for me, it was important to say no. What I'm talking about in this book is not coming out. It's about how do I reformulate a relationship with the identities I've been told all my life are bad. Right. And where you're getting messages about it being bad differ along the line of race, gender, where you are in the world. Right. And so it was important for me to highlight that, but I think differentiating it from coming out, because sometimes people say, well, you know, we had all these campaigns, like, it gets better, you know, and it's like for some people, it doesn't. Like, let's just be real about it. Like, yeah, but you still need to focus on how you feel about you. And that to me is the priority, you know, like, how do I focus on feeling good about me?

[Kia]

Yeah, yeah.

[XD]

Which is everybody. Because every niggas are not okay with themselves. And then they spill their shit all

[Jade]

over the place, other people and expect. It's frustrating to do with it.

[XD]

It's also an unfair burden, I feel like on. On the community, because it's like, why do I have to. Why do I have to come tell you what my preference is? Again, as a. As a. As a heterosexual, I never have to go and make an announcement about who I'm interested in or why I'm interested in them. You know what I mean? It's not a declaration and so I find that. I've always found it actually to be a bit of a weird concept, but I do understand where it comes from because there's so much homophobia rooted in our community as well. So.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And it's a continual thing. You know, I think historically we had thought about, people talked about coming out as, like, when did you come out? Like, people ask that question, when did you come out? You're coming out all the time. Like every time you meet a new person, you have come out. So it's like a continual thing throughout life. You know, I always joke about when the first time I came to California and there was some women I was hanging around and I was very confused because I was like, do they know I'm gay? Like, what's going on here? Like, I don't. I was like, oh, it didn't translate from New York to California. Like, confusing, but it's like, oh, I have to come out again. Like, okay. You know, like constantly, every time you meet new people because you don't know how they are encountering you or like, what they see in you at sometimes. And we take that for granted. If you, you know, I think, I don't know, maybe I'm, you know, an example of a gay person who's like, you know, I have no idea how people interpret what they think I do until they say it.

[Jade]

That's such an interesting thought. I've never, I, I guess I come from a place of privilege where I've lived my outness for the last 20 years on the Internet. So people are already coming with the notion of, of who I am and, and all that stuff. But I've never really had the, you know, have to reintroduce myself or have to come out again. I was like, I haven't had to come out since I left home. Whatever coming out means, you know what I mean? So I've, I think, huh, yeah. I've never thought about this reintroduction, like, going on, you know, again and again and again when whatever new person that

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

you meet, I think, like the barbershop, right? Like, you know, there's a classic example where like, gay people talking about the barbershop. And you know, when I first moved to la, I was going to a barbershop and one day he, the barber at the time, asked me something like what I did and I mentioned it. And then from then on, once he knew, he was like, okay. Every time I came in, he had a list of gay questions. He was like, okay, you hear? I've been waiting to ask this are so entertaining. He's like, the LGBT community. Am I saying that right? I'm like. So I had to appreciate. I appreciated his questions, but it became this thing where it was like, oh, the first few months, you had no idea. You just had no idea who I was, what I was doing. But then I had to come out, and now I'm the authority on the gay stuff. So he gets to stack his questions every few weeks.

[Kia]

Yeah, I was gonna say xd, though, I think what you're saying is an example of something that, to me, came through in the book, like the process of unspoiling like you. I think, yes, ultimately, I guess you could argue that the way that you have presented yourself and your identity online is in largely a lot of way a rejection of the stigmatization that comes absolutely along with it. So I, I. What I think is super dope about Shameless is that it gives us some examples for, like, what the work of that unspoiling looks like in practice, and what are the spaces and places and practices of actually, actually doing that. I'm sorry, I thought you was gonna say something. Xd.

[Jade]

Well, yeah, I wanted to talk about. You interviewed a lot of people. A lot of people. And through this, you know, you discovered, you know, how people identify and stuff. But what I found interesting was I was. Yes, I was expecting gay shit, but I didn't expect the racial identity portion. When with the person who was like, it was almost like, but I'm. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not black. I'm. That kind of thing with the Samoan person. Can you talk about that? In this idea of when it comes to identities and race comes to play, how does race come into play, especially in your research?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah, no, definitely race essential to it. I think one of the key pieces is, like, we. We grow up often, if you're raised in a black family, hearing a lot of messages about blackness that are more evenly tempered than you hear about sexuality. So you grow up maybe learning from your parents that being black comes with costs or social costs or how to prepare yourself for encountering the police or being better. But they also have messages like, black is beautiful. You're beautiful. Like, they often are pouring those things into you around race, not around sexuality. And for many people who I interviewed, race to them was immutable. Right. Even though we often talk about it as a social creation, it's tied to ancestry, it's tied to history, to who they know. And so, you know, they felt like, I'm black. And that's what I know where sexuality felt more like a. Oh, like that has changed for them. Right. Because in their minds, they're like, well, I force myself to live as free for some time. Or I didn't, you know, so they're like, maybe it'll change. It seems changeable to them in a way that race doesn't. I think in particular, the examples you gave are folks who are multiracial. Right. And they talk about feeling like even within their families, they were getting negative, like, messages about what it meant to be black. Right. And I think it's a very conscious choice for them to participate in these black spaces where I'm doing my work. Right. And so that's partially why, you know, it's important to me to name on the COVID like, this is about black gay identities, to talk about their usage of the term, that even if they said something like, I'm biracial or multiracial, they were intentionally trying to put themselves in black space. Right. Or black communities. They're like, I'm a member of the black community. And they understood that they were red in that of way. And so I think race is at the forefront of that. And our understanding of what is sexuality is shaped by race and what is normal or considered normal for what races and what isn't. And so they grew up with those messages.

[Jade]

Yeah, because you often talk. There's another part where you discuss somebody who was supposed to go away to college and you talk about that.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yes.

[Jade]

I don't want to give the book away.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yes. No. So one of the examples is a young boy who was graduating from high school and wanted to go away to college. And his mother basically was like, I'm not letting you go to college so you can go be gay. And, you know that's gonna stop you. Right. I was like, what did I say? Now he's just gay in your house. Right. So, you know, it's. It doesn't do anything. But I think it's important for us to acknowledge these things where it's like, people are changing and shifting the trajectory of people's lives based on these identities and what people find acceptable and don't. And one of the other examples that I talk about in the book is a young boy, I believe I call him Brandon in the book, who, you know, so much of the literature suggests that younger generations are more accepting and more welcoming around sexuality and that, you know, actual gay people aren't being called fags in schools or, like, being, you know, people are less homophobic in Some way. And he's a great example because it's like, no, they still doing that. Like, they still terrorizing the gay boys. And he's an example where he talks about one of the reasons he didn't go off to college is because he was afraid that it would be worse. Like, that they were gonna, you know, now there are no, you know, you even more free to make fun of me or to. Or to, you know, treat me poorly. And so these. These encounters really do shift and move people's, you know, life trajectories, which is

[Jade]

so interesting because oftentimes the black gay escape is through education. Going to school, that was mine. You know, I didn't want to come out. I. You and I have a similar coming out experience where they. We were asked by our parents. It was about a week or two before we both had to go to school. So it didn't.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Mine was the night before.

[Jade]

Mine was two weeks before. I was like, bye, diva.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

You gay? I was like, I'm going to New York City. I'm gay now.

[Kia]

Yikes.

[XD]

Wow.

[Kia]

I don't think I ever knew that. That is so fascinating. Black moms. I mean, what a time.

[XD]

I know.

[Jade]

Piece of work.

[XD]

Piece of work.

[Jade]

My mama asked me, was like, the Lord brought it upon me to ask you.

[Kia]

They love to blame the Lord. Okay.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

They love my mama. Definitely bring the Lord into it. She wanted to know for herself, did she ever.

[XD]

This is a. I. This might be a problematic question. I don't know. Y' all can tell me if it is. What tipped her off to even ask this in the first place? Like, you know what I'm saying? What did, like, question? Did she give you a. Like, a.

[Jade]

Well, she did for me. She did. She had, like, a dossier of things. And, you know, my mother speaks. Yeah, she did. Because, you know, I was a Young Ho in 2003. So I was like, that's what Metro PCs had came out. So I was like, I don't need your singular nonsense in tracking me. I'm gonna talk to the trade on my hotline, okay? So she was like, you know, I hear you on the phone late at night, you know? You know, and I don't know who you're talking to. And I was. And you be on your computer. I'm like, girl, I am listening to Desi Sh. Like, I don't know what you want me.

[XD]

I love playing Tetris.

[Jade]

That's what she asked me. And I was like, yeah, girl. Then she sat down, and she immediately went to aids, because that's usually where it goes. It goes to sickness that had nothing to do with that. And then for her, it was interesting because then after that, she was like, well, I don't know how to. I don't know how to provide you with a toolkit to prepare you for this. And later on, we've talked about this, and she was like, you know, as a single mom, I did my best to prepare you. I know last night you talked about, you know, breaking or being raised into our single mothers, not being considered being able to raise a man, that kind of thing. My mother has always been like, I've raised you to be a good person, not to be a good man or anything. So that's. I was like, well, that's a. A plus. But b, you know, it. Once she got over the idea of this envision of her son that she had thought or whatever, the. She got. She got over it real quick and then was like, okay, well, how can I be supportive?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah.

[Jade]

You know, so it. It took some. It took a little while, but you know what? I mean, it wasn't immediate, but, you know, it. I know that. Again, privileged place. And I. And I understand that's not the case for everybody, especially for a lot of people in this book. But, you know, I.

[XD]

And what about you, Terrell?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

I feel like it was probably a bunch of things over time. The same things, like you on the computer, you on the phone. You're doing this. Who is that? One example, though, sticks out in my mind, is a restaurant we were at when I was a teenager. Probably like Bennegans or something. Come on, say it. I don't think it exists anymore. Right.

[Kia]

But whatever.

[XD]

Get a Monte Cristo.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

We in the restaurant, and it's like, clearly, this is a gay waiter or something. And we're, you know, I'm there with my whole family, and, you know, he's looking at me, and I'm like, oh, whatever. And then my mother's like. To my dad, like, why is he looking at my son like this? Like, what? And I'm like, because, you know, you're embarrassing. You're like, whatever. But it's one of those moments where it was like, okay. There's just, like, an amalgamation of, like, different things happening. Okay. And so I feel like she just was like, I'm gonna ask, because if I'm not gonna wait for you to tell me. Okay, you want to tell me today?

[XD]

Okay.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Before you go to college.

[XD]

Okay.

[Jade's Assistant]

All right.

[XD]

Okay.

[Kia]

So I think you know this. I appreciate y' all sharing that.

[XD]

Yeah.

[Kia]

Because I think, you know, one thing that I thought was cool reading through the book was I felt like. I was wondering, I should say, I feel like you're very explicit around, like, racial identity, sexual identity, but I think, like, embedded within, like, gay as a sexual identity is this idea of gender, manhood, masculinity. And I know that that comes out in some of the stories and some of, like, you know, as you're talking about the people that you are working with specifically, but curious as to whether that was, like, a choice. Like, were you intentional around, like, maintaining the focus on, like, racial and sexual identity versus, like, explicitly exploring, like, concepts of masculinity and manhood as another layer?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah, that's such a great question. And I struggled with how to address it very much so. One of the questions I asked people in the interview was like, what are some of the positive things about being a man? Or whatever gender term they use?

[Jade]

That's a loaded ass question.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yes, but they all had answers.

[Kia]

I would love to hear it.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

But the answers were always things that they didn't have to go through because they're not women. So it wasn't like there was anything inherently good about being a man. It was like, privilege. I get paid more than women do or I don't have to have a period. Yeah, like, you know, like those. And so I.

[XD]

Real manish ass. I was about to say, you know,

[Kia]

owning up to the male privilege. So it's big. That's not something.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

But I don't even know if they even framed it as like, this is male privilege. You know, I mean, it was like one of those things. No, it was more like, well, thank God I don't have to go through that. And, you know, I could have done more and probably should have done more with gender, like, explicitly in. In the world.

[XD]

No, no, no.

[Jade]

You just. It would have been a different book.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

It would have been different.

[Kia]

I'm just saying.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

But I think it is another. It is another.

[Kia]

Yeah, you know, like a. Or how you. Yeah, on the work of implication. I think that that would be exactly dope, because. No, I. I'm not. I don't. I don't think it was a. I'm not qualifying the choice. I think, you know what you think.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

No, but I agree with you. That's the question I ask myself too. So don't know. The critique is also from within. Right. With this question of, like, how do I deal with, you know, not framing the conversation about manhood as explicitly as I could have, I think. And it was always Challenging, because I think it does come out in the narratives and in the stories that they. What it means to be a man.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Or how they learn. But it was a hard question. It was a deep question for them. And I still struggle with. Okay, how best do you present that the thing that men are excited about being men is rooted in, like, misogyny or something, like, you know, like this male privilege thing. And so I don't delve into that as much and partially. Also. One of the reasons why I don't delve into that is that race and sexuality presented as such clearly salient things. Yeah. That, you know, there's been a much larger discourse around, you know, who gets to be black, who doesn't get to be black. And I feel like that's changing right over, like, this new generation are like, you got four black grandmothers, you know, like, who's there and who can be. And so it was important for me to address the racial piece.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And I think I tried to point out that to me, the gendered piece is in the privilege. Like when we first started about this, which is like, that there are even spaces where they can go.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And that for women.

[Jade's Assistant]

Yeah.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Those places don't exist in the same way.

[Kia]

And I mean, I'm only, you know, like you said, you started your data collection in 2012. And so, you know, the thing about research is that it's like, contextually specific. Right. So I'm just thinking about it now through the lens of, you know, this age where we're in the manosphere and what, you know, what that lens would add to this conversation. So that's why I asked. But I think it's. It's. It's really fascinating because I'm learning a lot about even, you know, even the work that we've done before sits around just thinking about intersectionality and all the ways that, like, race and our gender identity also class identity also sort of like, you know, all of these things. You know, it was fascinating to think about it through this lens, also adding the layer of what it means for stigmas and how we collectively, individually and collectively position ourselves to reject them. I just feel like, you know, there's a lot of. That's a lot of. There's a lot of good work. And so would be curious to know, like,

[XD]

You know, I'm really trying to get to Istanbul. No, I'm not getting new teeth or a brand new hairline. Although, shout out to you all, that's not shade by any means, if I'm being honest. I really want to go eat and see what unlimited Turkish coffee does to my caffeine resistant body. I want to go buy all the textiles and roam the marketplaces. And did I mention I'm trying to get something to eat now? Do I know how to ask where the best doner kebab is?

[Jade's Assistant]

No.

[XD]

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[Jade's Assistant]

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[Kia]

You know that thing where you get

[XD]

an amazing pair of shoes at a

[Kia]

really great price and want to tell everyone about it?

[Jade's Assistant]

Yeah.

[Kia]

So do we here at Designer Shoe Warehouse. We'll give you something to brag about, like the latest styles from brands you love or the Trends everyone's obsessing over,

[XD]

or shoes that make you feel like, well, you.

[Kia]

So go ahead, show off a little. Buying shoes that get you. And prices that get your budget. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today. DSW. Let us surprise you. Now that this is out and into the world. Are you already thinking, because, you know, the way, you know, how, you know, academic work, you know, they don't let us finish one thing before they be

[XD]

asking, no, are you gonna have another baby? Are they gonna be closer?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

That's all what they say, right? Yeah. So I definitely have a bunch of other projects, but I think the one that probably comes to mind right now that's related to this is, you know, in the, in the book, I talk a lot about religion as well, because as a source of some of those stigmas and how those go. And so, because people say, well, why do people keep going to these churches and places if this, if they're having these negative experiences? And so highlighting, you know, but, you know, the spirituality and having a spiritual practice really does matter and community matters. And so for many people it's hard to leave. But I started to question, like, what about the people who do leave and say, I'm not Christian anymore. I don't know if I want to do that in that way. And so I had, I have a project on black spirituality that's rooted in things like hoodoo, voodoo, root, working, conjure, and then African traditional or diasporic faiths like IFA, Ishe Shay, those things. And so we interviewed like 109 black folks across the US who are practicing different African diasporic faiths in some. Some way. And that will most likely be the next book. And I will say that one thing is the majority of them in that project identify as women, CIS women or agender and some non binary. And, you know, it's been an interesting counter to this project with like a build off, like an offshoot, because sexuality also becomes like a clear reason why that's happening. And that gender is definitely a big key reason why, you know, women. I cannot go to this church. Yeah, I gotta find something else. And so it's race, gender and sexuality come together very clearly in that to say, no, I have to find a practice that fits better with me. And, you know, I have a paper from this project that just came out and the quote is, you know, a person's God should look like them. And that was one of the things that one of the respondents said in the interview. You know, she said, I'm Very clear on my. On that fact. Like, a person's God should look like them. And that also means including women. And in many of the religions we're brought up in, it doesn't.

[Kia]

Yeah. And so they're there. There's. There. I think. I think there's a lot of spaces. And I think, you know, millennials are in such a space. Right. And there's a lot of reckoning.

[XD]

Reckoning and.

[Kia]

And sort of like recalibration, you know, growing up as a church baby, there's ways in which I am interrogating and problematizing, you know, some of the things that were very normal and core to my own sort of upbringing and identity development. But, you know, experiencing the dissonance of sort of what you were taught and what you were raised in and what your experience is, and thinking about that through the lens of, like, power and patriarchy and all the things. And so that's dope, I think, you know, just. Just naming that. You know, this is work that should continue on because there's a lot for us to talk about as it relates to sort of identities and stigmas and all the things.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And they're shipping.

[XD]

Absolutely.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[XD]

Yes. Very much so. Every single day. As you were just speaking, I was thinking about just running my Rolodex in my head of many folks I know who I guess, for all, you know, for lack of a better, have left the church to explore other faiths. Right. And how demonized that also is as well. You know what I mean? They're not respected as faiths. And so that. Yeah, that. That's a very interesting intersection when you add queerness mixed in with that as well. I. I'm very excited for that upcoming project, but I won't continue to ask you about it because it's annoying.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

It exists. Don't worry, it's happening. That'll be the next one.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Jade]

Yeah, I. And even with the. What Kia's saying, I would love for you to expand. I know this is just a wish list, but class. And because in the book, as. As I used to work for a gay nonprofit, and I'm going to tell you, the rich gays don't show up there unless they work there or they're on the board. Right.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah.

[Jade]

So I want to talk. I want this disparity between, For crass terminology, rich gays and poor gays. Right.

[XD]

That's a book meeting.

[Jade]

And I also. And I often think about that in the terms of the dating pool because oftentimes people complain about, like, oh, it's sour. It's a cesspool of wap de whopp do hoopty hoopty hoo. But that's because you're not crossing the 10, right? Or you're not, or you're not going to the Bronx or you not, you know, doing. Going to the south side of Chicago. You know what I mean? Like, there are class disparities impact so much other stuff in our community. And also why I think all gays hate each other. But that's another sociological question.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

When you were saying that, yo, it made me think of like, you know, when you talk about dating and crossing, I'm like, I'm thinking of what's a millionaire matchmaker with like, Patty Stinger? And she, you know, go. Go to the bar across from the hospital. Like, that's what y' all need to do. You can't go down to the local bar to find, you know, if you mix it, you got to go by the law firms downtown to find you a partner.

[XD]

You also find you a man who likes to pee on you immediately on the first night because not.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

The fetishes are so weird.

[Jade]

But yeah, in all seriousness, I want to talk about the fact that you took very lofty work and made it palatable for folks to read.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

I tried.

[Jade]

You know what I mean? Meaning, like, yeah, you made the. Like, this is some academic shit, my friend, but you made this. Yeah, but she made this. Exactly. You made this for. For regular Deglar folks. Yeah, to get the shit that they need. You know what I mean? And I, And I thank you for that. I appreciate it. I'm sure that was intentional.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

It was. I think, you know, for me, it was. It's always important to me to try to write things in a way that the people who are part of the project can see themselves in it and also understand what I'm saying. Right. And so the ideas in the book I presented to the people in my project, they read different versions of it at different points in time.

[XD]

They.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

They knew what I was talking about. And so I always felt like I didn't want to come out with something that they would say, no, that doesn't sound like me. Or that doesn't sound like what my experience was or, no, I don't agree with that part of it. I think there is. There's space to disagree about my interpretation of things, but I also wanted them to be able to see themselves. And so, like, some of them. Some of guys who I interviewed, like, were texting me earlier today, like, I saw this on. On that Page, I think that's me or whatever, you know, like. Like identifying quotes that they think are them.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And I love that. And sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. And I love that they can be wrong about it because I think it just highlights that. Like. Yeah. Your experience was not just you. You're not the only one who was told that or who felt that way.

[XD]

You know, exactly how, being that you worked on this, you started this project 14 years ago. You know, first of all, was this. What, what. What came to full fruition? Was this at your original plan and thought process or how, like, what was the evolution of that? Because you're not the same person you were 14 years ago.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

No. Which is why it's so hard, you know, to think about the book where I'm like, yeah, and I talk about this and I'm like, did I take that out of there? Like, you know, all the time? Because it's been a work in progress. When I started out, I really thought the project was going to be about a younger population because the organization I was focused on advertised themselves that way as the.

[XD]

You was younger. You was 14, 14 years ago?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yes, I was. I was. I was like 21. Like, you know, like, you know, and so I'm like, okay, they're gonna be like 14 to 20, kind of. And then I got there and it was like 18 or 30. And I was like, smack in the middle of the age range. And I, you know, I started off graduate school thinking about. I was trained as an elementary educator, and so I was interested in what do people do in out of school time. And so I thought this was like an after school, out of school time place because of the way they were talking about the population. And then when I got there, I was like, no, they're all graduating. You know, like, they're all basically adults. And so it shifted. And it was important to me to kind of just follow the direction of what was happening. And so that's kind of how across the book, I end up starting in the organizational space and then turning to media and then turning to these family configurations, because I was following what seemed to be important to them as it was going and progressing. I think I've. In some ways there's more of me in the book than would have been in the book if I had written it. Exactly a while ago. Like, I. I got pressed on that a lot, and I try to make it clear. It's like I'm telling other people's story and my experience of encountering them. This is not my story. I didn't grow up. There was no organization like Uplift LA in the book that I talk about in Baltimore. Like, I was. And I wasn't going to community space with other black, gay and queer folks as a team. That wasn't what was happening. And so it's not my story, but I'm. I use how I grew up as a kind of a lens to interrogate what they were going through.

[Jade]

So you do talk, you do pivot, like you said, to media and stuff like that, through Noah's Ark. I know that's a staple in here, and I know there's not a lot of black gay media. Right. We have pose and tangerine and a couple of other things. But you talk about Noah's Ark being like a possibility model. I know you have a different terminology for it, but can you expound on that? I think it's important because a lot of times, for whatever gender expression or sexuality orientation you identify as, a lot of times, the first time you encounter something is through television. Like, everybody's first drag queen is RuPaul, right? She came on the scene in 1990. So it's kind of like, yeah, yeah, Crazy.

[XD]

Yeah.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

You know, that's true. It's very true. Media does play that role. Like, I always joke and say, you know, when I was a teenager, I remember Queer Spoke coming up. And I remember. Well, I remember watching Queer Spokes start, and I was like, what is going on in this club? And they in this dark room doing this sexual stuff in public. I said, if this is gay, if this is gay, I don't think I'm that. So, you know, when Noah's Ark came out, it was, you know, a moment for me to go, wait a minute now. Okay, now, wait a minute. They feeling a little.

[XD]

They just a group of friends rollerblading and shit.

[Kia]

Okay, now this I can get with.

[XD]

Okay, exactly.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Okay, one point. That's exactly it. And so that's how I felt. Right. And so I think media, and Noah's Ark in particular, is such a foundational frame of reference because it was the first scripted TV show on logo. Logo, of course, being that first gay dedicated channel. And to have a show that centered on the lives of black gay men, a group of them, not just one, meant that it expanded our understandings of who are black queer characters. And black queer characters have always played a big role, I think, in film, but they're often $140. Exactly. Yeah. So I think of my favorite, like, Wayman in a low down Dirty shame or like, you know, these, like, these characters that are often caricatures, and they're the only one right. In a show. And Noah's Ark gave an opportunity to say we don't have to put all of the stereotypes and challenges and issues on one body. Right now we can see a group of them. They're masculine. Some are masculine, some are feminine, more feminine. Some of them are navigating what it means to build a family, to not have a family. They're getting married on Noah's Ark before gay marriage is legalized. Right. So showing us possibility. And the show had been critiqued a lot for being maybe too fantastical, not dealing with the real challenge, the intersectional issues that were having progressive. But I, you know, I argue in the book that that's why I call it dream capacity building in the book, because I say it's important for you to be able to envision a life, life without the burden of those stigmas. And like, what is a gay wedding? You know, what do I want a gay wedding to be? That gave us a model of it. Now, it was very based on, like, what we understand as traditional weddings in some way. But if you've never seen one, how do you know? Or if you don't have an example of what that life could be like, how do you expand your mind around that? And so I thought it was important to highlight that through the critique of the show. Even though it was like, like unrealistic in some ways, it really did shape people's growing up and their life experiences. One of the boys in the book says, I moved to LA because of Noah's Ark. That's what he saw and he believed it. It wasn't true, but it changed his, his life trajectory.

[Jade]

Yeah, no, it's true.

[XD]

Yeah.

[Jade]

It happened to me.

[XD]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jade]

Like I, I, you know, I was a young gay watching Noah's Ark. This is great. And then fast forward. The director and I ended up working together. But I. It was important. You know, we always talk about how representation matters. Right. And I think this is one of those things. Logo was a white network in general. I'll take the gay out of it. Is you having the first black show on this white progressive network? Yeah, yeah. No. Who is fighting, fighting against all odds through advertising and shit like that, displaying this world. That is a possibility that a lot of people in early 00s didn't think that we can expand our minds to, to even get to that point. You know, we still living in the struggle. Yeah.

[XD]

And to that point, and Your point, Terrell, as well, you know where you said people felt like the show was too fantasticalized? Is that what you said? Yeah, like fantasy sensationalized. Right. White hoes get to have whimsy all the time. They go get a job as an intern, and then all of a sudden they're a fashion icon, and then they go into Paris or they're turning Paris down. I don't know. White people get to do whatever they want on tv. Xd maybe watch that. But why can't some things be sensationalized? Like, what's the problem with that? If we watch in Monster In Law, where, you know, they get to go and they're living on a ranch and then they're gonna have this wedding, and then these are the things that went wrong. But they. I hate the term first world problems because it's problematic, but they are, like, very privileged problems. You know, why can't. Why can't that also be represented as well? That's a flawed. I feel like that's flawed.

[Jade's Assistant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

It's attention to would. Like the. You know, who do we have enough room yet to have representation in that way? And so I talked about that a little bit, which is like, the guy struggled with this question of can we show negative things? Like, you know. You know, today we have shows that have been created where it's like, here's a group of black gay men and they are drug dealers or they're like, criminal. You know, it's like, it's. You know, I interviewed a creator of a web series who was like, I wanted to do, like, a black gay the Wire, like, all the characters, you know, that kind of thing. And in some ways, people fought with that, right? They were like, I don't think we have enough. There's not enough good representation out there yet to be trying to say people could be bad, too, kind of thing. And I don't think we're there. And people struggle with that.

[Jade]

I struggle with that.

[Jade's Assistant]

Yeah.

[Kia]

You know, I think. I don't know, I just. This makes me think, right? So I think there's a lot of that. A lot going on, I know, in, like, education research, a lot going on around this idea of imagination sort of being the bedrock of resistance and progress. Y' all know, friend to the show, Dr. Charles H F Davis, and, you know, our friend Candace hall are doing a project called Imagine Futures, Right? And so it's challenging, you know, black academics to imagine a future, right? So, like, you know, it's pushing back on this idea that we have to sort of stay in reality. And like Jay said, like, what would it look like for us to imagine the future that we want in the academy, in the world, etc. Etc. I want. I say that to say one of the things that I think is a key feature of your book that I want to make sure in the spirit of helping people understand it as a. As a choice, like, you know, in the talk about, I think your work as a ethnographer and why that's so important for a book like this.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah, no, I, you know, ethnography, I always say, I teach the ethnography classes at the university in our department. And so I was, you know, ethnography means writing culture. And I think ethnography and observing how people are living their real everyday lives is such a key way to understand what's happening. And, you know, I write a bit in the methods and I also use this in my classes, which is, you know, I think if I hadn't done ethnography, I wouldn't have as accurate data about what people were really doing and how they were navigating things if I wasn't there to observe them. And so one quick example of this was early on, I was doing, like, time use surveys in the interviews where I was asking people to walk me through an entire day in their life. And I sat down with some guys and they were telling me, oh, we got up this morning, and then we prayed, and then we went and got breakfast and then we went back outside again and we prayed again. And I'm listening to them and now it's like 2 o' clock on their day, and they prayed like five times. And I had been hanging around them at this point for over a year, and I had never seen them pray at all, ever. And so I was like, is prayer a euphemism for smoking weed? And they laughed. And then they were like, well, we didn't want to say it on the tape. We didn't want you to get in trouble. And I was like, you know, I'm like, you know, if you have to pray after this.

[XD]

Exactly. Look, I was over Terrell. I was over here. I was like, well, were they Muslim?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

I'm like, I have never seen y' all pray. Like, what are we talking about?

[Kia]

A little talk with Jesus?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Exactly. You know, and I'm like, let's be real. So I think it was interesting because it's an example of, like, if I hadn't been an ethnographer and, like, hanging with them and actually seen them, I would have walked Away from that being like, these some of the most religious people I have ever met.

[XD]

You're like, I've met a faith I've never seen before. Those of a busted sea. Exactly.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

I've never met. But because of ethnography, it made it possible for me to ask the right question at the right time. It also meant that I embedded myself in a way that people knew I wasn't just collecting data and trying to leave.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

So I still talk to several people from the project every week. You know, I'm like, you're black and gay. I'm black and gay. Like, they reach out to me, I reach out to them. You know, so I didn't want them to feel like it was fully extractive because I think I. I'm privileged with the opportunity to tell some of their stories in the book. And I feel like my name rides with the book, so all of the fault can lie on me in their stories and their narratives. But also so does the like. If people enjoy it or they learn something from it, it also comes from that. But I wanted to be clear that my goal was to use this as an opportunity for them to argue or for all of us to argue for more spaces and places that help people who need it. Right. So this is.

[XD]

This.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

You all are showing us why we need community organizations like this, why people need gay family, why people. We need more media rights, representation. And I wanted to be able to do that and let them know that my interests are tied to theirs. Like, you know, it's not extractive in that way for me. And so ethnography, it was true to me to be like, let me embed myself so I can actually truly understand what's happening here.

[Kia]

Yeah, I love that.

[XD]

I love that. I love that. That's a very black, too. Yeah, it's a very black.

[Jade]

I know we're running. We're running out of time here. And I have one more question for you. And it regards around family. In the book, there is. You. You talk about family a lot. It's a cornerstone here. And. And so it seemed as though people are coming to. At your community site that you were at to. To find family. And family has kind of changed in. In terms of what that is. So can you talk about your journey in discovering family through this lens?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah, you know, I think in the literature I. I was saying, you know, when I was growing up, people would say gay family, and they would make. They would mean you have a gay mother, a gay father, or you. You pick someone to be your family. And that, of course, with all this social progress of, like, we can get married now, gays can get together, have kids, you know, all that. Now, gay families means that, like, two. A couple has come together and started a family. And in the literature, I thought it was important to highlight that, one, gay families had always existed before that in these types of configurations.

[XD]

Yeah.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Two, they only are not. It's not just subscribed to ballroom or circumscribed to ballroom. Right. That people had gay mothers and gay fathers and gay siblings and all that outside of the house ballroom community, or even that cuts across the house ballroom community. So your gay father, gay mother could be in a different house than you. And that is. I don't think that's the way that we think about it. And I think when you were talking about, like, pose earlier, I think that's an example of, like, you know, it does give you this impression that, like, that's what a gay family is. I think it's important because family is the primary socialization agent of your life, right? The family you're born into often dictates how you understand your race, how you understand your sexuality, your gender, your class, your religion. It's often all passed on to you in that way. And so when you don't have a family that is supportive or that you feel like you can learn from. Well, you know, I think of that Peppa labeija quote in Paris Verdict, which is like, you. You go out there and you search, right? You don't have a family. You're gonna go out and look for

[XD]

it with the young kids who are just out on the streets at 13 and whatnot.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

You have to find it. And in the work. I think early on, I was maybe not as. It wasn't as clear to me why people were joining gay families or doing things. I always say in the preface of the book, I talk about when it was first brought up to me to join a gay house or have a gay family. And they were like, did you get a gay mother?

[Jade]

Someone's mentioned in the book. I don't want.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah. I won't say who, but, you know, because I was like, I'm not going to these balls. What are you talking about? And then.

[Jade]

And I was like, girl, you're not gonna get this done, right? If you're not gonna go.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

I said, no, I have to go. I have to go. That's the ethnography piece. And so I say two things. One, which is when I was in high school and they presented to me what I like a gay mother and gay father. You need a gay mother and a gay father. And I was like, for what? Cause they can tell you what to do, you know, and how did. And I was like, I have a mother and a father, and I don't need anybody else trying to tell me what to do. So I was like, not gonna work for me. And so I avoided it. Right. I was like, that's not my thing. But I think learning with some good prodding, you need to go understand this. I had a fundamentally skewed perception of even how scoring and things worked at Ballroom or what was happening for these families in that way, until I went and I learned what it meant. And then meeting people who were like, I'm not in ballroom, but my dad is involved, or my gay dad is involved, and I'm not in his house, but he's my gay dad.

[Jade's Assistant]

Right.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And so understanding why it was important to create family and that it's not just, like, chosen kinship network or like a group of friends. Right. Because you can call anyone your group of friends, but like, that these. They are creating family relationships and complex relationships where they see them stronger even than their biological families. Sometimes. Yes.

[Kia]

There's, like, accountability. There's accountabilities in those relationships.

[Jade's Assistant]

Yeah.

[XD]

If we're gonna use media. I know we've mentioned pose many times, and I do agree with you that it's like, it doesn't give. Like, it doesn't get to give the full onion. Right. It doesn't get to dig deep into. And understandably. So it's for media. That white man wrote it all for all. There's all kinds of things. Right. Or direct. Whatever you want to call it. Anyway, I think if I think about a relationship in there that might represent what you're saying, it would be, what's her name? It's Electra and, oh, my girl, MJ. What was MJ's character's name?

[Kia]

Where.

[XD]

What was her name? What was her name in the. Bianca.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Thank you.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Kia]

So how.

[XD]

No matter whether they were in the same house or not, like you said, they would expand up, there would be fights, was getting killed, they had to cover up murders, you know, all kinds of things like that. It was. And then also an accountability.

[Kia]

Right.

[XD]

Because Elektra had issues, and Bianca was like, hey, let me. Let me. You're. She would hold her accountable. She would hold a mirror to her face, whether she wanted to see it or not. And so I feel like that's giving us a media representation kind of surface level representation.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Absolutely. What you're saying, it's a great example. Right. And I think, for better or worse, you know, pose. I think it was, like, a really good dramatization of Paris's Burning and does a really good job of expanding the store, giving us a little bit more, you know, bringing it to life in a different way a little bit, you know, and does a great job at doing that and, you know, actually employs these wonderful trans actors and actresses who can be on this, you know, on the scene in a way that the folks who were in Paris is Burning originally were not able to, like, they didn't reap the same benefits in that same way. So it is absolutely transformative.

[Jade's Assistant]

But.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And I. And it also is another example of there's more than one trans woman in this show.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

All of the stereotypes about what it means to be a trans woman aren't on this one person. Right. Like. Or what it means to be gay. There are multiple versions of what it means to be a gay person in the show.

[XD]

Yes.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

So you get to see that. And I think that's what I'm always pushing for, which is let's. We have to diversify the representations so that, you know, it's not just, oh, you see a show and you think that is the only way to be queer and gay. That's the only way you can be that way. And that's why I use the queer spoke example where I say, look, I saw it. And I was like, oh, no, if this is gay, I gotta find me a new thing. But. But then, you know, Noah's Ark comes along. You're like, oh, okay, yeah, I could do this.

[XD]

You know, you're like, that aligns. That aligns.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yes. I was like, and they're black. I don't. Like, they're black. They're, like, talking about things that I know. There's music here that I know, artists I know, and you know, what that looks like. And so I think it's important to highlight that. But, like, family. I couldn't write about this without addressing family. And I think it does kind of book in the work. Right. Which is. I'm talking first in the beginning, really, about biological families and how people are brought up and what they're learning often at home. And then for by the end, we're turning to, you know, these chosen gay families. People as, like, I am choosing to be in relationship with you in family.

[Jade's Assistant]

You.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

You are my gay mother. I'm going to rely on you. And to take people on as children is a big calling.

[Jade]

Right.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Like, they talk about like, I'm paying, you know, I'm paying the way for my kids, or, you know, I'm showing up when something's wrong or if they're sick or those things and they're. They're stepping up to the plate and doing that. And I think it's important to have that. Especially in a city like la. We have a lot of transplants and people who, like, picked up their stuff and were like, I picked up everything I had in Alabama and I moved to LA to make it New York to, you know, New York, you need a family.

[Kia]

Alabama.

[XD]

I used to host boys Thanksgivings. XD knows he was one of the lost boys. And I was windy and I would cook for all these whose family who didn't have families or they were transplants to the city or whatever, and it was necessary. And that's how we've been able to expand and kind of build our familial community in this way. And so when you add an additional life experience to that, such as being gay, where you've experiences that I haven't even experienced, then you can see why it's so important, because it's important for everybody. Everybody needs that energy. Humans across the gambit.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah.

[XD]

So I. I appreciate your perspective very, very much.

[Jade]

Yeah. Any parting words?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah, parting words. Do I have parting words? Yeah, you know, everyone go pray. Yeah. No, I just hope that, you know, it's, you know, that the book is. Even though it's about black gay men, that I think it, you know, my goal was to make something that was portable for people who are navigating stigmas, no matter what they are. Right. And what unspoiledly looks like for different groups may be different things. There may be different pathways. I talk about these three in the book. The community organization, the media and the family as like primary pathways in the book. There could be others, depending on where you are and what stigmas you're navigating and negotiating. But it was important for me to highlight this concept, which is that, you know, I think we talk a lot about trying to destigmatize, and much of the work that's being done is put on the people who are living through the trauma of the stigma. You know, going to these community organizations, going to places. You're teaching me how to deal with the stigma. That's not. Not going to destigmatize.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

The people who need the intervention, the people who have created the stigma around who I am.

[XD]

Hello.

[Kia]

Hello.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And until we get to that point, we won't see destigmatization. So for me, unspoiling became this, this term to really go into say it's about reformulating the relationship you have with yourself. And if by chance you come to a better understanding, you're accepting yourself and maybe other people feel okay about it afterwards. That's a good after effect, a good spillover effect. But to me, it was more important to say no. We need to rework how we feel about what it means to be who we are, living in these bodies with these types of identities today.

[XD]

Beautiful.

[Jade's Assistant]

Thank you.

[XD]

Dr. Winder. Please tell the people where they can find the book, where they can find you, and check out all that you're doing. Please plug yourself.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah, my social media is bmore Terrell

[Jade]

because I'm from Baltimore, negro.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

You know, with a.

[XD]

With zero. Baltimore. Say two.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Two.

[XD]

See, I don't.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

I don't have. I don't have the accent. But here's the thing. I don't have that. It's a. It's a whole thing. I didn't even realize it was an accent until I went to college and we watched a video and people are

[XD]

like, you understand why you don't sound like that?

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

And I was like, that was English. So, you know, whole thing. But yes, no, I'm be more terrell on social media platform platforms. And the book is available at Amazon Rep Club, NYU Press. You can get it anywhere. Right now. There is. Yeah. So NYU Press, if you use Pride 40 when you buy, you get 40 off of the book right now. Yes. So find me on all. All platforms.

[Kia]

Thank you for being here.

[Jade]

Thank you.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Thanks for having me.

[Jade's Assistant]

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[Kia]

Shout out to Dr. Winder. Okay. Was that not an awesome conversation?

[XD]

Make sure you all go purchase the book as well. Whether you are gay or not. I feel like.

[Jade]

Learn some.

[XD]

Yeah, it's got a conversation for everybody. Yes.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

You need to disconnect.

[XD]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Leave Love island alone for a night or two. I know it's. No, it's hard. Why read it on Thursday.

[Kia]

Are you watching this season xd?

[Jade]

No, I'm not. I'm gonna. And I'm gonna tell you why. I'm gonna tell you why. Because I, You know, I struggle with reality shows where love is the main

[XD]

prize, which is why I was so surprised at how quickly you got propagandized.

[Jade]

Well, they win money on this watch you get.

[XD]

I've watched you.

[Jade]

Well, I know. I do want to see. They do win money, however.

[Kia]

Okay. Unlike a married person or.

[Jade's Assistant]

Or.

[Jade]

Yeah, they do win money, but it's not enough for me to be like. Like, okay, right. But I. I also realize, like, they. This show is just not for me. They are young. They are young people.

[Kia]

Very, very young people with. Yes.

[Jade]

Like, I don't know, 22. Like, I don't have anybody in my family that's 22, like, right now.

[Kia]

You know, I struggle to relate to.

[Jade]

To them as well.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

And I don't want to. You know what I mean? Like, I don't. It's not that I don't want to, but I don't want to.

[Kia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jade]

And it's fine because they don't need to know me. They don't need to know us either.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

And that. It's a mutual disrespect,

[XD]

A mutual unknowing.

[Jade]

I'm going to watch Big Brother as. As per usual.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

That's because I'm. We.

[Kia]

We've been doing very invested at this point.

[Jade]

Watch Big Brother.

[Kia]

Yes, indeed.

[Jade]

Yeah. That's what we do have to do it. Plus it's easy to. It's easier to navigate and plus there's.

[Kia]

It's less a commitment. It's just once a week as opposed to every day if.

[Jade]

And if you choose to. And if you choose to engage in live fees and that's different. But it's. You really need to watch one episode of the week.

[Kia]

Yeah, yeah.

[XD]

Oh, wait, hold on. Before you do your petty peeve, as you all are bringing up tv. So. Sorry.

[Jade]

Jade, you should do. You should do Big Brother with us this year.

[Jade's Assistant]

It.

[Kia]

You know, just. Just give it. Consider it.

[XD]

Just give it A. I'll think about it.

[Kia]

Think about it.

[Jade]

Listen, I just think I. It's. We're coming up on the thousandth episode. We. You have a month. You have 30 days from today or yesterday. You know, it's going to be a good time. I won't even make you watch the live feeds.

[XD]

Yeah, I won't. First of all, like,

[Kia]

it is weird

[XD]

though,

[Kia]

but it's like I'm waking up and watching other people. Like I'm literally checking these fees.

[XD]

Like I am literally intentionally in other business.

[Kia]

Yeah, it's very wild.

[Jade]

Yes. And there's. It's like watching live tribal survival like all the time.

[Kia]

It is.

[Jade]

That's why when Cere was on, it was magical. She was. We was locked in for nine.

[XD]

You know how I feel. But you know how I feel about serie fields, though.

[Jade]

You know how I feel about her. I even encourage you to watch the her season that she was on. I just a couple episodes. Just so you could be like, okay,

[Kia]

I see what this is about.

[Jade]

Like the games.

[Kia]

Give it a. Give it a.

[Jade]

The games are corny. They're not. Like there is real gameplay though. Like there is some shady. That does go down.

[XD]

Okay.

[Jade]

And. And people do be off the wall. They say racist all the time. It's fun to watch and get caught. Well, they get kicked out, but it's fun.

[Kia]

I mean, for the blood and Lee. Racist. But there's also just, you know, the standard microaggressions. Yeah. And you know, I feel like black women on Big Brother is always a wild ride. Right. Because there's a certain way that people engage and perceive a black women in that space and all of their prejudice and bias falls out very quickly, even when they try to conceal it. Especially among the progressive girls. Right. And the gays.

[XD]

It's true.

[Kia]

You see, I'm like, oh, your racism fell right out, girl. You was trying to hold it in. But I see it, look at it, it's right there. So that's always. That's always an interesting angle. And to me it's just something that it's kind of become strangely become a part of the summertime for me. It's just kind of like, oh, yeah,

[Jade]

big brother, it's a part of the summer. It's escape. Because I don't have to think about anything else. They tell you 900 times what happened.

[Kia]

Now you can escape the reality of this world by going over there into this closed social experiment. And just like I'm not even dealing with what y' all are talking about. I'm gonna see what these people are doing, so. Okay, that's been helpful. But, yeah, just think about it.

[XD]

I will. I will consider that. Takiya.

[Kia]

Yes, I'm ready. My petty peeves. I talked about this a little bit.

[XD]

Yes.

[Kia]

Oh, were you gonna ask me something else?

[XD]

I was.

[Kia]

What? Go ahead.

[XD]

XD and I already had our conversation. You can go find it on Patreon.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

J.D.

[XD]

nixie's Patreon. We would like to know your conversation. Did we have Drag Race, the last final episode of the second bracket of Drag Race. Your thoughts?

[Jade]

Oh,

[Kia]

I don't know where to begin. I feel like Silky is doing what I know Silky to do in terms of how, you know, the gameplay and the points and how that all worked out.

[Jade]

She s filled the situation.

[Kia]

I mean, it was kind of. Even though I was like, oh, I was kind of, like, kind of genius, the way that was. It.

[XD]

It just.

[Kia]

She engineered that in a way that was most favorable for her, which in all of the ways that I struggle, you know, with my sister Silky and the ways that she gets on my nerves, it's like. It's masterful gameplay. Okay.

[XD]

Yeah, it was good gameplay.

[Kia]

It's masterful gameplay. It's masterful gameplay. I did at least feel better that she was worried that if my sister, Crystal. Crystal Meth Chris, If. If Crystal didn't get that last point, I was at least encouraged that Sookie was feeling bad. Like. Like, you know, she. She was over there stressed, like, if they don't give Crystal this point, if Crystal is not in the top two. After I done did all of this nigger rigging, I was.

[Jade]

I was encouraged because that's exactly what she did.

[Kia]

It was nigger rigging for sure. I did feel. I felt better about that. I'm trying to think, because I watched it a little while ago.

[Jade]

How did you feel about Selena's reaction?

[XD]

Oh, yeah,

[Kia]

Selena gets on my nerves. And I'm just trying to. I don't know if. Selena's reaction. I wonder why Selena feels so entitled to me. I feel like there's, like, an entitlement there. And. Sis just didn't have the points. She didn't have the wins. She didn't have the points. She got a win. Right. If I'm remembering correctly, I'm getting a little confused because I. That I'm also. I told you that I went back to watch. I'm now, like, watching season 12 because I went back and watched. I went back and watched Silky's Original, and then I. Then I'm in season 12. So I feel like all this drag races is coming together in my mind.

[XD]

That's Jada, right?

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

I think Jada and the Queen. We don't talk about.

[XD]

Oh, oh, yeah. Oh, Sherry pie.

[Jade]

Yeah, we don't talk about Bruno.

[Kia]

It was so wild, though. But, yeah. So I feel like I have a lot of Drag Race in my mind. I'm trying to keep track of this most recent one. So I feel like I don't remember. Okay. Selena. Selena. Felt like, oh, Selena. Okay. Yes. Because the. She was looking for the tres leches to. To back her up and all of them.

[XD]

Yes.

[Kia]

Left my sister out there by herself. Okay. Okay. Yes, Now I remember. Yeah, Now I remember. Now I remember her.

[XD]

And Aura. And Aura. She. She was also relying to give her a point. Remember?

[Kia]

Now, I didn't think Aura had it in her. And I felt like it was interesting that Aura, because, I mean, Aura didn't get nothing out the equation, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, no, all of the ways that Aura was moving to me, it did not benefit her directly. So I, I. I think, think if you juxtapose that against the way that Silky was moving, like, it was very intentional gameplay that benefited Silky directly where I feel like she wasn't going, or it was just.

[XD]

She knew she wasn't, though.

[Kia]

Yeah. And that's why I thought it was interesting that she didn't. That she left Selena out there. I was most annoyed because Selena kept saying, peck, peck. It was like, girl, girl, one more time. She's not laughing, listening to you.

[Jade]

Girl.

[Kia]

Stop saying it like it was irritating. Yeah. But no. What did y' all think? I mean, I think it was wild to see her reaction. Like, she blew up in a way that I thought that she would. But, like, what, boy, did y' all

[XD]

think we had a bit of a disagreement to.

[Jade]

We did.

[XD]

Yeah.

[Jade]

And I think it's. And I. And I recognize this is me playing Survivor.

[Kia]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Jade]

Because I. I did not. I think a. I think Stitty should have fought Aura and April.

[XD]

See, if I want. And look, and I'm playing. Who the fuck are you talking to? And I was like, how you gonna make all these alliances? And then black on me for not voting for you, bitch. Like, after I've been beeping you be shady in this workroom, bitch. I'm not giving you shit, Selena.

[Jade]

And that's why I conceded and I said, fine with Aura. I still don't like the heifer, but it's fine. But April, carry on, who was just there for like, STDs carried her. Like, that's true. She did through these last.

[Kia]

That's true.

[Jade]

Three episodes. And, like.

[XD]

And then Silky boosted her ego with that one little point. That did.

[Kia]

But it was so interesting, though, that was.

[Jade]

She threw it off.

[Kia]

That was interesting.

[Jade]

I couldn't write anybody's name down. That's what I gave to.

[Kia]

But I just feel like what's interesting, because April and Suki had been sort of, like, giving each other a lot. And so it was interesting to see

[Jade]

how quick Puerto Rican macro aggression.

[Kia]

But yeah, so. So it was. It was interesting to see how quickly, like, I felt like all Silky had to do was ask April for her point, and she gave it like, it was not. There was no objection. Which I was just like, what is

[Jade]

that about over engineering the game. Yeah.

[XD]

Production.

[Jade]

Because I called it from the first episode. I was like, oh, Silky and Crystal are going.

[XD]

Yes.

[Jade]

I was like, if any. Or if Silky's not, it's as titties.

[XD]

Well, I thought. I thought. No, I didn't. I never thought Selena was going because of the. The redemption of the. The lip sync with Akiri. That's what I. That's what I was thinking about.

[Jade]

Yes. But I also was thinking, like, well, out of this crop of queens who has been like, most improved, and this goes to what you were talking about, Kia, about, like, the entitlement as titties has. And I can see how this happens to a lot of queens when they come out All Stars. They. Jan. They took. They. They took all the critiques.

[Kia]

Now, Jan was season 12. I'm watching Jan's first season now out.

[XD]

She worked mine.

[Jade]

You about to be.

[Kia]

She works me. She wears me.

[XD]

She wears me.

[Jade]

But then when she gets to All Stars, it's like, damn.

[Kia]

When she get to All Stars, it

[XD]

was very much like, damn, they just don't like you. That's.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

They don't like her.

[XD]

That's really sad, man.

[Kia]

Where's her?

[Jade]

Like, she's talented.

[Kia]

She's very talented, but the personality is just not there. She's irritating. I don't think I would like her neither thirsty.

[Jade]

I like her now.

[XD]

She's too thirsty. I need to watch on Drag Race.

[Kia]

Yeah, I didn't watch her All Stars. I need to watch her All Star season. But I. I've just watched her original, like Drag Race prepare to be sad.

[Jade]

Yeah. And she had a really sad. Especially the Madonna episode.

[Kia]

It's the Madonna episode. Oh, they just did the Madonna rusical in season 12.

[XD]

Yeah.

[Jade]

That was so bad because that was Jan's episode.

[XD]

Yeah, that was

[Jade]

when Gigi became Madonna

[XD]

and she was doing the thing transformed

[Kia]

into Madonna because the rehearsal, it was giving like Gigi girl, what's happening?

[XD]

Oh, yeah, baby. Baby deer. Baby.

[Kia]

Yeah, was giving. What's going on? But then she showed out at the, at the rusical which was like, okay, I didn't see that coming. I think I read the episode where Widow got sent home.

[Jade]

Oh, was that Snatch Game?

[Kia]

No, she got sent home after the debates when they did.

[Jade]

Oh, look over there.

[Kia]

Yeah, yeah, they did this Snatch. Did they do Snatch? Yes, they did Snatch Game because Gigi was the robot. Yeah. What's it the one. Oh, yeah, she was, she was Cardi B. What's her name? I'm thinking about the little one.

[XD]

I gotta re watch. I gotta rew.

[Jade]

Yeah. Pandemic season is real murky.

[Kia]

Yeah. I think right after Black Widow went home is when they had to go

[Jade]

because that is that Tina Burner cena season.

[Kia]

No, no, that was, that was 11.

[XD]

It's Gigi.

[Kia]

Good.

[XD]

It's Jackie Cox.

[Jade]

Oh, yeah, Jackie Cox. Heidi.

[Kia]

Heidi, Heidi. Apple daddy finally landed. Heidi. I think Heidi's, I think Heidi goes home next. I don't know. Does Heidi make.

[XD]

Where's Heidi?

[Jade]

Heidi came to all stars.

[Kia]

She did have an all stars, wasn't she?

[XD]

But I feel like she's been quiet.

[Jade]

There's a new show. It's on out tv. It's with estiddies. Heidi. Marcia, Marcia, Marcia.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Jade]

They're all living in a house and being queen. Where's Gigi?

[Kia]

What is Gigi doing now?

[Jade]

Gigi is a woman in Paris.

[XD]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jade]

She left the country and she's a. She's a woman in Paris.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

That's right.

[Jade]

Go off.

[XD]

Yeah, that's literally.

[Jade]

I wanted her to do us get a salon. But hey, people have different because that

[XD]

on some hair that the fact.

[Jade]

Simone,

[XD]

please. Yeah, Gigi did all Simone's hair.

[Jade's Assistant]

Really?

[XD]

But sorry, that was a very long, long way before your petty pee.

[Kia]

But yes, I'll. Yeah, I, I, we, we should reconnect. I'm interested to see what this week's episode is going to give because isn't

[XD]

it the third bracket Patreon and discuss.

[Kia]

I will. I sure will. I will.

[Jade]

Yes.

[Jade's Assistant]

Country.

[Kia]

Petty, petty, petty. All the same to me playing James Spaghetti. Okay, Petty peas. Here's what I want to say. What, what gets on my nerves. Okay. What really jams my glock, particularly in work settings. And this is something that I feel like I've only experience in communicating with men. White Men specifically, but men, when we're having a conversation and there is a gap in understanding or like, you know, what I'm saying is not something that, you know, it's going to take some work for us to get to a place of shared understanding. There's always this assumption if they don't understand that I'm confused. So a lot of like, when you talking, it's like, no, I think you're confusing. It's like, like, hold on a minute, Nathan. I'm not confused. You're confused. I'm very clear. You're confused.

[XD]

And I have poor communicator.

[Kia]

I have stopped. I have had to stop several people in their tracks at work because it's like if I'm explaining something, you can say that what I'm saying is confusing. You can say that the way that I'm explaining it is not making it clear to you. You can, you can own that, but you have to own that the confusion is yours. You can't project the fact that you're confused on everybody else that you're talking to. And I'm saying that because when I experienced. Well, I don't. I've never heard a man say that to another man. But there is a way that when a man is speaking to a woman and not just me, I've also observed it happening between interactions that don't involve me directly. But when a man is speaking to a woman and he doesn't know what's happening, he will say like, oh, I think you're misunderstanding. No, Paul, you're misunderstanding. Understanding. You can say, I don't know. You can say. Can you explain that to me? You can say, I'm confused by what you're saying, but you can't assume that because you don't understand. We don't understand. Okay, I understand. You can say that you don't. Don't project your lack of understanding onto me. And that's my petty pee because. Are you kidding, Russell? I will knock you out.

[XD]

Don't.

[Kia]

Don't try me because I know what I'm talking about.

[XD]

Okay? It's fake confusion. Oftentimes for them to get their way and what they want. Short story, when I was in college, I worked at Papados and we. You had to slide your card to put in the people's order or whatever. Right. So we had different stations to go and put people's orders in. Yep. So I go to. I go over to computer, slide my cart. I start putting my tables order and this white boy comes over and. And hip bumps Me and canceled me to slide his card, which automatically cancels my out. So at first I'm like, of course. I'm like, there's no way he's that all day. Like, you playing. But, like, I'm not with that right now, so can you stop? So I was like, hey. And he was a big white boy. He's about your size xd, but think about me and a. Your size that's white. And so I was like, come on, stop. Like, cut the like. And I. So I move him out the way, and I slide my car. This. Did this again again. So I said, oh, you're not playing. Like, you're not kidding right now. I was like, stop, because we're gonna have a problem and I'm gonna get fired. Like, stop it now. And this called me a. Whoa.

[Jade's Assistant]

Huh?

[XD]

Call me a.

[Kia]

What's the issue? That he felt like he should go first. He should go for, like, what? Like, is it.

[XD]

There was no explanation as to why you bumped me out the way. And then you're calling me. There was nothing in between. So he calls me a. And I was like, okay. And I knew what was getting ready to happen. I was prepared to lose my job. And because he was a big white man. I got that right in the throat.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Throat.

[Kia]

Ch.

[XD]

And I was like, throat good. It was more like a throat fist bump. Okay. It wasn't quite a punch. I didn't snuff up. It wasn't a chop. It was more of like a. So he fell out because he's gas gasping, you know what I'm saying? Because it was a windpipe, and he was big. The bigger they are. And so he falls. The managers are freaking the. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Jake, go back in the office. I was like, I gotta put their order in. They were like, which table? We'll have somebody. I was like, they. They need it now. This is already too much. No, go back in the office right now, Jay.

[Kia]

Back in the office and went back to work again. Fascinating. I love.

[XD]

I tried.

[Jade]

They were like.

[XD]

They had somebody else. They were like, go back and take their order. Everybody saw what happened because it happened on the floor.

[Kia]

Yeah, right.

[XD]

The computers are on the outskirts of the floor. So it's not like my table would have been confused as to why the orders were. But I go back in the office, I get every manager in there. Okay? Now, when you work in Pop, you got a gm, you got a floor manager, you got the kitchen manager. It's every in there. And I was like, oh, it takes all of you. They were like, what were you thinking? I said, look at the cameras. He bumped me out the way multiple times as I'm putting my table's order in. Now how would you all like me to handle that when I have asked him several times to stop doing it? You could have gone to another computer. I was like, you're putting this on me.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[XD]

And I don't with that. I said, that white boy knocked me out of the way multiple times. Now do you want to put that on the record? Cuz I'm happy to talk about it. They didn't want that kind of smoke. So I got sent home for the day and not fired. But they never put me on a shift with this again.

[Kia]

Good.

[Jade]

See, that's why I operate off of the mo. I'll kill us all.

[XD]

Exactly. Like the US Government.

[Kia]

Listen, we all going together.

[XD]

You understand? It's your choice. We all going to get.

[Kia]

It's up to you. We all going together. How about that?

[XD]

Their entitlement and. And their entitled even. Even within conversation. Yeah. Is infuriating. It's out of control.

[Kia]

It's wild. Because it's very much like, nah. And I just. It's very clear. And I. It's like, you wouldn't say that to anybody else.

[Jade]

You wouldn't do it to another big white.

[Kia]

Exactly. So why do you feel comfortable? Oh, no, I think you're misunderstanding. Oh no, I think your misunderstanding. Like, let's be clear about that so we can get to a place of clarity. I'm even happy to say, okay, I could communicate that better or differently. That does not mean that I'm confused or ignorant. It means that you don't know. And we can get to a place. Yeah, it could get. We can get to a place where we know. But I just think you have to be careful. You let people say that kind of stuff to you. That stuff follows you, you. Oh, oh. Then it's like, oh, Takia doesn't communicate this or you know, that. Like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you got to nip that in the butt and do it right away. But that's a pattern that I have noticed, particularly as a woman in the workplace. And it's very much like, let me help you, Dan. Get out. Like, get the hell out of here. Okay, let me help you.

[XD]

That also lends to a larger conversation about how unqualified most of them are for the jobs they're in. And they're all only in those jobs because of who they are as people. And I'm not Gonna have that now because we've gone off the rails multiple times. But they're confused because they're dumb and unqualified

[Jade]

and embarrassed by it.

[Kia]

Yeah. And then they want to make the fact that, you know, they want to make you some sort of anomaly. Oh, Takiya, you have such a knack for this. It's like, no, sis, I got a PhD. I went to school for many years.

[XD]

Dick.

[Kia]

I went to school for many years. I know exactly how to do this because I trained to do it because I'm qualified. That's the difference between you and me.

[XD]

Me.

[Kia]

Okay, I trained. I trained. But that's a different conversation

[XD]

since you

[Kia]

ready with a petty peeve.

[XD]

You got yours? Oh, I just did mine.

[Kia]

It was that white boy.

[XD]

And I think, I think I'm irritated. Yeah, I just, you know, sandwiched it into your throat. I think I'm irritated because they never put me in another shift with him again. And you know, I play the long game with my enemies and I have a very short but potent list. And so that white boy is forever. It's up. And it stuck. Also, dawn, who used to work at Negril, who lives off the Q train, I haven't forgot you. Thirteen years later.

[Kia]

Thirteen years.

[Jade]

Kill us all.

[Kia]

Thirteen years.

[XD]

Thirteen years.

[Kia]

Please, no.

[XD]

Thirteen years later, it's still stuck. All right. XD what's your petty.

[Jade]

I've been thinking about this for a while. So this, this, this week I was blessed with the opportunity to go see a film called scary movie 2026.

[Kia]

Oh, I've heard this. Isn't it like the 10th one?

[Jade]

It is. It, it's. It's.

[XD]

It's fast and furious.

[Jade]

More than enough.

[Kia]

Wow.

[Jade]

Yeah, yeah, we were forced. Yeah, yeah, we, we, we. Jade and I saw it and it was fine and all that stuff. But what really pissed me off is the after effect of the movie. Right? And it's kind of to your point, Takiya. And this idea of when, and I guess me is like working as a part time comedian sometimes I hate when people like try to defend jokes or sometimes especially like, like when the Kevin Roast, Kevin Hart roast thing came out, there was so many comedians going out to defend and extend their necks out for no reason. It's okay to shut the up sometimes, but anywh who. So when it came. So when it comes to this movie, you know, it's art. You people are able free to interpret the way they would like to.

[Kia]

Art.

[Jade]

Art is, you know, it's subjective. Some people call it art. It is a motion picture.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

So Therefore, motion picture.

[Jade]

Picture.

[XD]

Okay.

[Jade]

Yeah. So I think the movie, if I'm going to be complimentary, I would call it hot garbage and cheese.

[XD]

I was going to say stunk. What do you mean?

[Jade]

Yeah, like, like that is as far as compliments go for me. Like Cats, the movie was better.

[Kia]

Oh. With Jennifer Hudson.

[Jade]

Yeah. Yeah.

[XD]

You know how deeply uncomfortable we all felt looking uncomfortable.

[Jade]

But that was interesting to watch. Oh, yes, this was. I could have been at home and saw this on the YouTube.

[Kia]

Oh, dear.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah, but what pissed.

[Jade]

What, what irritated me is the fact that, like, oh, you don't like X comedy or you don't find this common, you don't find this funny because X, Y and Z. And I understand that comedy is subjective and stuff, but there are just some things that are categorically unfunny. But honestly, you should. You got the money, right? You know what I mean? You don't have to beat down my throat about why I need to like this movie. I bought the ticket and I don't have.

[Kia]

I don't have to like you.

[XD]

Whatever the case is in movies.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Like, it's okay, bro.

[Kia]

I don't have to like it. I don't have to. Or because you like it.

[Jade]

Yeah, yeah. And I, and I, and I think that's what I, I get irritated about, like, just creators in general, how they feel emboldened and entitled to your. Like, because they think social media like likes or real likes in real life. But people think that they're entitled to your favoritism, your. What you find to deem as an escape mechanism.

[XD]

Right.

[Jade]

And it's like, that's super dumb.

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

Right.

[Jade]

And selfish. Right. Like, I think because everybody's moving this, this individualism. Right. Because I always talk about how the I, the idea of the algorithm is going to kill us all psychologically. Because the fact that everybody thinks everything is around them.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Because they can.

[XD]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Critique it. Make everything to their liking and not realizing that they're blocking out the rest

[Dr. Terrell J. A. Winder]

of the world revolve around you or

[Kia]

your opinions and preferences in that way. Yes. It's unrealistic. Yeah. It's unrealistic for you to, to move about the world thinking that you can always dissociate or remove yourself from uncomfortable things in people. That's not real life. The work is in learning to manage my petty. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jade]

I think my petty peeve ultimately is people who are afraid of friction, conflict, different conflict, big difference. Because if I, If I were to say, if everybody in the world would say I like this movie, then they're gonna keep making the same horrible movie.

[Kia]

Correct. Yeah, correct. Yeah, correct.

[Jade]

You know what I mean?

[Kia]

Correct.

[Jade]

Like, I need. There needs to be critique and honest critique about things and in the way we live and have honest dialogue about things, the way we get to a better understanding of who we are as a people and to make a path forward to being better.

[Kia]

Yes. And we can be critical without being harmful, without being dismissive, without being violent or negative or problematic. We can just simply stay, you know, or we can push, we can interrogate, we should question. We could be curious. Like that's natural and normal. And those are the things that keep our brains engaged. I think this is super important now because all of this consensus and going along is really just helping the people not to use their brains in a way that is concerning.

[XD]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I love that idea of the algorithm because it's true. It's ruining everything. You see, Another component of white supremacy.

[Jade]

Yeah. Al Gore warned us, but hey, didn't he? They don't believe all their own whites. And that's another conversation. They don't trust each other. But that's not.

[Kia]

We gotta pay. We gotta pay for that. Yeah. We have to pay for the fact that they. They don't trust each other.

[XD]

And justifiably, y', all, maybe if you would just be better. But you all put so much effort into the things that just don't make things better. It's so crazy to me.

[Jade]

They got to redefine better and like that. We don't have that kind of time.

[XD]

And they may not kept. Anyway, thank you all so much for listening to both Jaden XD and getting grown.

[Kia]

Getting Jaden XD getting Jaden XD grown.

[Jade]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[XD]

Thank you to Dr. Winder.

[Kia]

Yes, yes.

[XD]

And. And sharing such an important and necessary conversation. Once again, you all can find the links to the book in the. In your various description boxes across the board. And sister, take them out and tell everyone what to do.

[Kia]

Okay, I will, you know, just say thanks and hey. And to all of the Jaden XD audience. I love to hang out with you guys. So I just want to say hi and also to everyone. Y' all know how we do. We want to make sure that you are moisturizing your mind and you do that by minding your business. Okay? Not worried about what some other people are doing. You gotta let them do them. And we got to worry about ourselves as a people that feels very pertinent to say. Right.

[XD]

Your own algorithm.

[Kia]

That's right. Secondly, you want to hydrate your body. Right. That's how you keep your body moist and supple and growing and agile, especially around your joints. Okay. Because very important as we age. Hello. So drinking your water, as much water as your body can sustain every day. Okay. That's how you do that.

[XD]

Coconut oil is also good for that.

[Kia]

Absolutely. And you finally, speaking of coconut oil, you want to moisturize your skin. Okay. But not with coconut oil, because it's non comedogenic. It will clog your pores, but active boost. Yeah. So make. Make sure that you are moisturizing your skin, which is your largest organ. And that is foundational and fundamental to making sure that your black does not crack, because it will if it's dry. Bye, y'.

[Jade]

All.

[Jade's Assistant]

Bye.

[Jade]

Bye.

[Jade's Assistant]

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of angie. One thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. For decades, Angel Angie's helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for their projects that matter. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at angie. Com.