The Garden Within (Feat: Dr. Anita Phillips)

Summary

Gettin' Grown Podcast – Episode: "The Garden Within" (Feat. Dr. Anita Phillips) Release Date: June 30, 2026 Hosts: Jade & Kia | Guest: Dr. Anita Phillips

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Gettin' Grown" dives deep into the connection between mental health, emotions, faith, and self-acceptance with special guest Dr. Anita Phillips—trauma therapist, pastor, and New York Times bestselling author of "The Garden Within." Through candid conversation, Jade, Kia, and Dr. Anita explore the landscape of women’s emotional lives, mother-daughter relationships, personal growth, and cultural context, using gardening as a transformative metaphor. The episode highlights how embracing our emotional realities leads to healing, growth, and breaking cycles in Black womanhood and beyond.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Reflections: Motherhood & Major Transitions

Timestamps: 04:01–20:24

• Jade celebrates her 11th anniversary and her daughter Noah’s 13th birthday.
  • She shares mixed emotions about Noah entering adolescence: pride, excitement, sadness, and fear about a world that's "gross and lawless."
  • Jade’s approach: “I’m trying to be very intentional with the time that I spend with Noah, what I pour into her... create a safe space for her in a very unsafe world.” (06:10)
• Both hosts reflect on the challenge and privilege of nurturing Black children in today’s world and feeling gratitude for the journey.

Memorable Quote:

“I am scared and also excited for her. Yeah. And excited to see just all that she becomes and also mourning what we want, who she was as a little. And we'll never have that again. But that's okay. So trying to find ways to reflect on it in a healthy manner.” —Jade (08:00)

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Introducing Dr. Anita Phillips – The Intersection of Faith, Science, and Emotional Wellness

Timestamps: 24:47–35:00

• Dr. Phillips describes her personal and professional background: ADHD, mother of two, endless curiosity, a scientist at heart, and deeply rooted in her faith.
• Later-life diagnosis of ADHD helped her both personally and professionally, making her more compassionate and skilled at recognizing neurodivergence in others.
• Self-acceptance and destigmatization around mental health and personality are central themes in her work.

Memorable Quote:

“It's made me more compassionate with myself, helped me to embrace some aspects of myself more fully. It's been good.” —Dr. Anita Phillips (30:29)

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The Value and Function of Emotions: Reframing the Narrative

Timestamps: 38:43–42:48

• Emotions as bodily experiences: They precede thought and form the ‘soil’ from which our experiences and decisions grow.
• Scientific and cultural context: Western culture has privileged thought over emotion, stifling bodily and emotional expression.
• The dangers of avoiding or mislabeling emotions: Using “my nervous system is dysregulated” as a euphemism—naming the real emotion (sad, angry, afraid) is vital for healing.

Memorable Quote:

“Our feeling precedes our thinking. Our emotional life is the foundation. It is literally the soil in the garden. Nothing grows here that is not impacted by the soil.” —Dr. Anita Phillips (38:43)

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Culture, Body, and Expressing Emotion

Timestamps: 42:48–48:52

• Black cultural practices naturally integrate movement, sound, and communal emotional processing:
  • Examples: Weighted hula hoop classes for Black women to release tension.
• Language loss and emotion: Through epigenetics and lost language, some of our ancestral emotions may be felt without words—a challenge especially for Black Americans.

Memorable Quote:

“As Black people in America, many of us may be carrying emotions in our body from generations that we literally don’t have words for.” —Dr. Anita Phillips (47:29)

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Mother-Daughter Dynamics, Personality & Intergenerational Healing

Timestamps: 78:00–89:44

• The power and pain of the mother wound: The depth of pain reflects the strength of the bond.
• Understanding children’s personalities: Dr. Anita stresses that outcomes are best when mother and child personalities naturally mesh—but adaptation is necessary.
• Parenting is a dynamic, evolving process: “I have to transform into her mother... Because she's not going to suffer because I just happen to not understand her.” (82:25)

Memorable Quote:

“Chances are... if something bothered you about your mother, you're naturally not going to do it. That's why it bothered you. ...We need to give them what they need.” —Dr. Anita Phillips (81:05)

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Faith, Science, and the Garden Metaphor

Timestamps: 58:47–66:00

• “The Garden Within”: The metaphor is more than figurative—gardening language is woven into neuroscience and scripture alike.
• Emphasizes the responsibility to interrogate and personalize faith, rather than simply inheriting (“heirloom faith”).
• Triangulating truths: Every teaching in Phillips’s work is backed by biology, psychology, and theology.

Memorable Quote:

“Spirit is the seed, but the heart is the soil. And the soil can't outrun the, I mean the seed can't outrun the soil.” —Dr. Anita Phillips (65:20)

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Boundaries, Empathy, and Healing Parent-Child Relationships

Timestamps: 86:40–89:29

• Empathy vs. boundaries: Understanding why a parent acts as they do is healthy—but doesn’t require forgoing boundaries against harm.
• Self-parenting: There is a responsibility to protect the inner child, establish healthy boundaries, and heal generational pain—and to give grace for one’s mother’s limitations without excusing continued harm.

Memorable Quote:

“Understanding how they got from A to Z may help me with forgiveness, with releasing angst. And also I may still need a boundary with this person so that I am not continually wounded again.” —Dr. Anita Phillips (87:39)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “We like each other. And I just want us to keep, like, liking each other.” —Jade about her daughter Noah (12:14)
• “Emotions are bodily experiences that precede our thoughts. So our feeling precedes our thinking.” —Dr. Anita Phillips (38:43)
• “Personality difference helped with that. But one of the things I did have to get out of my system with God was a punishment orientation.” —Dr. Anita Phillips (73:09)
• “The depth of the wound reflects the power of the position.” —Dr. Anita Phillips, on mother-wounding (78:26)

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Suggested Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Start | |--------------------------------------------|----------| | Motherhood & Emotional Transition | 04:01 | | Dr. Anita’s Introduction & Bio | 24:47 | | The Role of Emotion in Wellness | 38:43 | | Body, Culture, and Expressing Emotion | 42:48 | | The Garden Metaphor & Faith Integration | 58:47 | | Boundaries, Empathy, Mother-Daughter Talk | 86:40 | | Closing: Boundaries & Petty Peeves | ~107:00 |

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Final Reflections & Takeaways

• Self-knowledge and self-acceptance are lifelong processes.
• Naming and understanding emotions is foundational to wellness, especially in a culture that has taught Black women that feeling is weakness.
• Parenting requires adaptation, boundaries, and the humility to see your child’s needs clearly.
• Interrogating and personalizing our faith (“don’t just inherit it”) is vital for spiritual and emotional health.
• Healed women create new possibilities for themselves, their children, and their communities.

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Further Learning

• Dr. Anita Phillips' Book: The Garden Within (find the link in the episode description)
• Dr. Anita’s Podcast: In the Light with Dr. Anita
• Upcoming Book: The Fruitful Life: Four Steps to Making the Right Decision Every Time

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For listeners new and seasoned, this episode is both a practical guide and a spiritual balm for navigating emotions, growth, and Black womanhood—planting seeds for generations.

Transcript

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[Jade]

I know you're thinking I've been better off without you by my side Mm but baby this season I don't want another cold rainy July you would think that I'd be better now but I'm not cause I don't have you you would think that I'll be better now but I'm not cause I don't have

[Kia]

you

[Jade]

Come back to the world Come back to the world baby back to my world yeah come back to the world Come back to my world baby Back to my world. I don't even know where that came from.

[Kia]

Wow.

[Jade]

I don't know. I don't know where that came from because I have not heard that song maybe since it came out. I don't.

[Kia]

Oh, Kevin Campbell, ladies and gentlemen.

[Jade]

I'm really. I'm sure I was all off, as I always am, but I. I was like, I'm really impressed, nigga. Cause I'm like, damn, I'm okay.

[Kia]

I'm like, you. That's a deep. Deep. That's a B cut.

[Pharmaceutical Information Speaker]

You know, that's.

[Jade]

You know, that's. That's Tevin with the Bob

[Kia]

with that middle part.

[Jade]

With that middle part. Okay. He had his. His. His Maxine. He had his vaccine.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

He had law ride the ma. Praise the Lord.

[Jade]

Oh, praise the Lord. How are you, sister?

[Kia]

Sister? I am safe. I have what I need. You know what I'm saying? I'm just grateful. I'm grateful. How are you doing?

[Jade]

You know, I'm doing the best that I can with what I got, period. Let's see. I told you. June is. Is Vivi stressful?

[Kia]

Yes. You're almost there, though, sister.

[Pharmaceutical Information Speaker]

Why?

[Jade]

We're almost.

[Kia]

Almost to the end of it.

[Jade]

Just about through.

[Kia]

We celebrate officially summertime.

[Jade]

11 years.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Wedded Marish. Yes. I was like, how do you. What's the realistic version of wedded bliss?

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Bliss.

[Jade]

What's the realist

[Kia]

like? We're just wedded. We're just weddedness, you know, all the. Everything that comes with being wedding.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Jade]

I was like, the twist. The turns, the highs, the lows.

[Kia]

That's it.

[Jade]

The taxes. So we did that. Yes. It is officially summer solstice. Okay. We are in the true, true, true season of summer now. Very exciting, as you all are listening to this. Oh, yeah. Then it was Father's Day right after the anniversary, you know what I'm saying? So we had to make the feel special because not too many of you all deserve that. So you know the ones who do. I'm gonna go ahead and give it to you.

[Kia]

Ain't that it?

[Jade]

Listen, because are on my nerves in these streets.

[Kia]

We're doing the best we can.

[Jade]

Up, down, all around.

[Kia]

Lord have mercy.

[Jade]

Oh, remind me to tell you all in the petty peeve about this cab driver as we're talking about the reckoning of niggas, and then as you all are listening to this, my child just became a teenager.

[Pharmaceutical Information Speaker]

Wow.

[Kia]

How does it feel, sister? Let's sit and sit with this for a moment.

[Jade]

I mean, enter the d'. Angelo.

[Kia]

What?

[Jade]

How does it feel what is.

[Kia]

What is. What is the. What are you sitting with? Like, what are. Where is your head space and heart space now that, you know, Noah is crossing the threshold of adolescence?

[Jade]

Talk to us a little bit about that. I'm a little scared.

[Kia]

Are you?

[Jade]

I am. I'm a little scared because, you know, are gross. You know what I'm saying? And lawless. And. And while that is not the lens that I try to walk through the world with, I also don't walk through the world with unrealistic ones. So I'm a little. I'm a little fearful, but I'm also, like, trying to be very intentional with the time that I spend with Noah, what I pour into her. You know what I'm saying, the things I say to her. Just trying to be cognizant of my own shit so that I always create a safe space for her in a very unsafe world. And so, yeah, I think I'm a little bit scared, if I'm being honest. Honest.

[Kia]

I think that's fair.

[Jade]

You know, I am excited for her because she's excited. And this is like. This is. This is a milestone, you know, waiting. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. All their little child quick lives, they're like, I can't wait to be a teenager. And it feels like it's forever for them. And it's absolutely not. It. It is. As Dr. Anita. It is. E equals MC squared is what I think childhood. Childhood ipsy squared.

[Kia]

It is a link.

[Jade]

It's a blink. It's a. It's a. It's. It's. It's turned into the motion. And that has wished by.

[Kia]

And wow.

[Jade]

You know what I'm saying? And in the blink of an eye. So, yeah, I think I'm to answer your question by. On. By answering it with the emotion.

[Kia]

Yes. Yes.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah.

[Jade]

I am scared and also excited for her. Yeah. And excited to see just all that she becomes and also mourning what we want, who she. Who she was as a little. And we'll never have that again. But that's okay. So trying to find ways to reflect on it in a healthy manner. It's a lot going on over here emotionally, but I'm working it out. You know what I'm saying? I'm working it out.

[Kia]

You know, sister, I think that that is more than fair. I think that's very healthy. It's a change. It's a transition, you know, and you've not done it before.

[Jade]

Never.

[Kia]

So it is.

[Jade]

It is.

[Kia]

I think it is completely healthy and fair for you. To be both scared and excited. Those two things can very much exist at the same time. I hope that in addition to that, you are proud and grateful. I think you are. Yeah. Like, I think you and Tristan Poffar are raising an exceptional human.

[Jade]

Thank you.

[Kia]

And you know, I'm excited to continue to see her bloom into all that she is meant and destined. Destined to be. It's wild to really think about it, but I'm just grateful above all. I'm grateful above all for just the opportunity to look. It's been. I really sit and think about it. Like I've really literally watched Noah grow up.

[Jade]

It's crazy.

[Kia]

It is crazy.

[Jade]

So wild. Oh, my God. I put that on. That so wild. On the invitation. I was like, our girls turning 13. Insanity.

[Kia]

Isn't it nice?

[Jade]

I don't even know how to comprehend this. If I'm being honest.

[Kia]

It is so, so real.

[Jade]

Maybe that's what's been wrong with me. Are we. I told Dr. Phillips that I was angry. Maybe I'm emotional and it's coming out in anger. Or maybe, I mean, do you think still so stupid.

[Kia]

Well, no, I think people are.

[Jade]

No, I think it's. I think it's animal. I think it's a combo of so many things.

[Kia]

Well, yeah, that is, that is also.

[Jade]

But maybe that's also part of it. Maybe I'm like, also in some sort of like grieving stage. I don't know. Maybe I'm also trying to over intellectualize it. But if I'm. If I'm answering you just plainly, I'm like, I'm sad, I'm scared, I'm excited for her. And that's really like, you know, that's really where we're at.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Yeah. And then also just like wanting her to feel special for, you know, with the things that she asked. She don't ask for a lot.

[Kia]

No.

[Jade]

The very first gift she asked, she don't even ask for gifts generally for her, she was like, I'd like a mini portable fan. I was like, for your menopause. That's no problem, girl.

[Kia]

She's so funny.

[Jade]

She cracks me. I like, you know what feels so good. I was, why does she want a fan? I don't know. This is like, she wants to be so bad. That's what I'm saying.

[Kia]

She wants to be a so bad. What?

[Jade]

And I think some of my favorite moments with her, I'm thinking about, I was washing her hair the other day and, you know, she's about my height. Feet are bigger. Like she's going to be significantly larger than myself. And so I have her bent over the kitchen sink while I'm like, trying to wash her hair. And so she's like, wiggling and. And she, A, she hates getting her hair done, even at this age. And then B, but she's worse with me, obviously, because they're always worse with the mother than the other people, which is probably a reflection of how I do the hair. But I don't know. Anyway, I don't have time to be working on all of the things at one time.

[Kia]

Listen.

[Jade]

So one thing, she hates getting the hair done. And then, you know, the. Gets distracted. She just be doing so much. So she's wiggling. And I was like, can you please? I was like, you over here moving around like a. Like a fish, just flopping like a fish. Do you know she like, sincerely. I don't even remember how I said it to her, but she sincerely cracked up. Like, she's like, ah, that is so funny.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Like a friend.

[Kia]

Now look at she.

[Jade]

And then I started laughing and I'm like, you know what's really dope? We like each other. And I just want us to keep, like, liking each other. You know what I'm saying?

[Kia]

That is the key. And I think that that is so, like, that is so real.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Kia]

And I feel like, you know, I say that about my grandparents. Like, you know, I know that they loved me, but I also know that they like me.

[Jade]

They liked you.

[Kia]

And that has meant so much to me.

[Pharmaceutical Information Speaker]

Yeah.

[Kia]

So I think that that is so clutch. And I mean, just as I've said before, I will continue to say it has been so. I love that we get to see Noah troll you

[Jade]

and she does.

[Kia]

There is something about watching the person that has trolled us get trolled in such the same way that you have trolled all of us. Noah trolls you in real time. And it is just like, wow, no, not that bad. I think not that bad. It's not. It's. No, it's not that bad, but it is.

[Jade]

No. I am a natural. I am a natural troll under the bridge.

[Kia]

Like, look at this. Look at this.

[Jade]

Yeah, it's coming back to me tenfold for sure. Like, that whipped me in two games of pool back to back yesterday. You know what I'm saying?

[Kia]

Like, yeah.

[Jade]

And then got me together, too. She first of all. Okay, I'm going tell you the best part. Part, because it was our first time playing pool together. Like, me and her. Her and her daddy go play pool. But it was me and her Playing. He was like, your mom's actually pretty decent at pool. She was like, really? And so we go and we play our. They play their game against each other, then I play next. And she was like, oh, my God, you're better than Daddy. I was like, yeah, girl, I told you, I'm nice with it. I just don't play that often.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And then.

[Jade]

So then she still beats me because, a. I put in two of her balls. You know what I'm saying? So that helped her. And then also, I was letting that cheat because every time she was scratched, which means you move the white ball a little bit or whatever, she was scratch. I'd be like, scratch. And then I was like, after you turn 13, I'm not giving you no more chance. Like, you don't get any second chances with a scratch. We're gonna play like we had to at the.

[Pharmaceutical Information Speaker]

For real.

[Jade]

Like, we. Like, I'm a stranger in the pool hall. But I let her make it on this one, right? So at the end, when she beat me twice, she beat me.

[Kia]

It's like, you got accommodations.

[Jade]

I knocked in that eight ball on that first game, and I was pissed. Oh, I was pissed off. And so, so then I. I got a little sore, illusory about it or whatever that was like, man, I helped you. I helped your ass out, though. That's why you ended up winning. I was like, it was a fluke. It was a fluke. She was like, you had loser. And I said, am I a little. I was like, maybe I am a little bit.

[Kia]

And what about it? Look at you.

[Jade]

I saw a loser with my chin.

[Kia]

She was reflecting you back to you.

[Jade]

She did. And I was like, believe it. Okay, let me fix that. Then I shook her head. I said, good game, competitor.

[Kia]

You better get me together.

[Jade]

But it also felt good when she said I was better than her father. And I was like, and this is a very important lesson about life in Jen. But anyway, right? And also. And I, I, I. I hate to do this, but I have to do it. I'm really grateful to experience this time with her and for her to even get to 13 years old. You know, when I think about these babies, you know, that are a part of these. These horrific atrocities worldwide. And this baby who. Who was just killed by the police. Cohen Wiley here. You know, at. At a year old, I'm so deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply sad and disheartened. Sometimes I feel hopeless about just what we live in. And then it is these moments and these conversations and things like this that root me and ground me in, like, full gratitude for. For even getting to experience my child. You know what I'm saying? And so, so, yeah, I'm. I'm so. More than anything else that I've shared with you earlier, I am grateful. I am grateful to experience life with her, and I'm grateful for every moment that I get with her. That's what I'm grateful for. That's how I feel.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Howard, did I ask you? How you doing? Did I ask you?

[Kia]

Yeah, I said I'm safe. I have what I need. I too, am also grateful and also celebrating, you know, even from the distance and from the sidelines also, like I said, I'm just grateful to be able to be a part of Noah's village and to just see her step into this next season. And, you know, I'm grateful, too.

[Jade]

I'm grateful for all of you all too, being a part of her world, making her the well rounded, you know, individual that she is. There's nothing to celebrate right this very moment. It's raining. Oh, you wasting your firecrackers and rain. I know they heard me.

[Kia]

I hope they did. What are they doing? What exactly?

[Jade]

What a fussing old lady.

[Kia]

And I'm standing squarely 10 toes down into my fussing era.

[Jade]

I can't wait to get to. I. I can't wait.

[Kia]

This is who I am. This is where I feel no way about it. Okay? It's like, I actually do hate this very much, and I'm going to tell you about it, and that's just what it is. Oh, my God.

[Jade]

Oh, I can't wait to get to the petty peeve. I can't believe. But before that, we're gonna have a wonderful conversation with one Dr. Anita Phillips. Yes. Because this went in directions that we didn't even plan.

[Kia]

I know, but it was so necessary and so good. And I love conversations like this. It's just, I think we generally talk a lot around emotions and like, why it's so valuable to really think intentionally about them. Making some distinctions between emotions and thoughts and just having some language for processing all of the things. And Dr. Anita is just, you know, a brilliant scientist and trauma therapist and theologian and leader and cultural thought leader. And she just give us such so many language and tools and a very useful framework for helping us to think about who we are and how our brains functions and how to understand all of the different aspects of ourselves through the lens of self acceptance. So many of us have been taught to believe that our emotions are too much, that they're you know that there's some. They make us weak. They make us that they are, you know that. You know that they're something that we need to suppress. But I think that Dr. Anita's work is really helpful for helping us to embrace and understand all of the ways that we are, who we, what we are, who we are, and the ways that our bodies and minds function naturally.

[Jade]

Yes. And respond and react. And you all just get on over to this kitchen table, grab yourself, grab your wine, your water, your notebooks, all those good things, and let's, let's head on over.

[Kia]

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[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms at Mintmobile. Do.

[Kia]

Welcome back to the kitchen table, y'. All. And I know I say this every single episode, but I be meaning it, okay? I'm not just out here talking, but I'm very excited by our guest. This guest, a person who is personally special to me, someone who has helped me out a lot and someone who is like a gift to us all because she's brilliant. And now she's here to be at the kitchen table to talk with us. I'm going to read her formal bio and then, you know, we'll jump right in. So happy to and blessed and privileged to welcome Dr. Anita Phillips. Dr. Anita. To the kitchen table. If you have been to the team type and fast la, she was the special guest there. And this is somebody who I have just been, you know, kind of a stan. You know, I've been a stand for a very long time, so I'm just happy to have her here. Dr. Anita Phillips is a trauma therapist, a life coach, a pastor, and the author of New York Times best selling book the Garden Within. She is widely recognized as a thought leader at the intersection of mental health, faith and culture. Her mental health advocacy work has reached hundreds of thousands and her podcast in the light with Dr. Anita has transformed lives around the globe. She holds degrees from the University of Maryland and the Regent University School of Psychology and Counseling and completed a postdoctoral fellowship at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. In her downtime, Dr. Anita, who is a New Jersey native, adores a good pint of ice cream sitting by the ocean and the company of her family and friends. Everybody say hey and welcome to Dr. Anita.

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

Hi.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Hey, y'.

[Pharmaceutical Information Speaker]

All.

[Jade]

Hello, Dr. Anita. Welcome to the kitchen table. We're so happy to have you.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

[Jade]

I'm so embarrassed that we met before and at the tea time.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I don't remember that either.

[Jade]

You were okay, Wonderful. All right. I'm not embarrassing anymore.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I do not remember that either.

[Jade]

So we're even.

[Kia]

Okay, good.

[Jade]

It was chaos.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Been there.

[Jade]

No, I was. I was there. I was there contin. I was trying to cuss that cater out, but that's not what we're here for.

[Kia]

I forgot all about that.

[Jade]

Yeah, no, I didn't, I didn't. I was like, she's on my list.

[Kia]

But anyway, she kind of almost took me through there. But we're here now, Dr. Anita. We here at Gettin Grown believe that you are more than what you do. And so we often like to start the conversation by giving our guests the opportunity to introduce themselves. Is there anything else we want our audience to know about you? The person while we're gonna get to know you and your work a little bit later. But tell us, Tell. Tell us who you are.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Oh, man, that's a good one. I am my kid's mom. I am. I have a son who's 29 and a daughter who's 24.

[Kia]

Wow.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

And very proud. Close to them. I am a friend. My friendships are super important to me, and I think just an endlessly curious person. I like to explain things, understand them, and explain them. So I'm endlessly curious about every topic and how things match together. I'm a ADHD girl. I'm an all DHD girly. My issues.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

And I see the world a little bit differently, and I'm enjoying pulling all of those things together in a new way as I'm navigating my 50s. And that's. Yeah, I'm having a good time.

[Jade]

Were you a late diagnos? A diagnos or, or early?

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yes, late. Definitely late. Definitely late. My daughter. My daughter first tagged me on the spectrum issues because she had a, A series in one of her classes when she was in, like, maybe ninth grade or something, and they were talking about autism and the spectrum, and she came home and was like, hey, mom. Hey, mom. Hey, Mom. I need you to look into this situation right here because you and that song that you've been playing for three weeks nonstop, and the grocery store overwhelm. And she just started, like, labeling stuff. And I was like, you're not wrong. Shall we do a little research? So that was how it started to come into the world for me. Of, oh, maybe it's more than just, she's the smart girl, but, you know, these other, like, sensory issues. And so then I, I knew there was probably something going on on the ADHD side. I got formally diagnosed with that in 2015 only because I got a job that was going to be demanding on skills that were weak for me. And I was like, let me get this diagnosis and this medication right quick. Right quick. Because I, I, I want to do well with this job. So I.

[Jade]

You literally just answered my question because I was like, has this helped you in your practice at all?

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

It helped me. Well, that particular job was a university job. I was going to run a department, a master's degree department, and I was like, the administrative demands are going to kick my butt, so we're going to have to get some extra, extra things. Done. It's helped me in my practice in that I'm much better at recognizing it now. So I feel like a lot of people were overlooking those issues. So I think that I'm able to. Better Able to recognize it quickly for people and help people have a shorter journey to figuring out what's actually going on with them. So I appreciate that. And it's been good for me in the sense of just normalizing more things about myself and being okay with that. I didn't experience it maybe because I was older when I encountered the diagnosis. I'm experiencing it as just another way to embrace who I am. I don't feel the need to fix a lot of the issues. You know, my. My place is still messy. I'm still eating the same exact food every day. Like, yes, I need. Getting sick of it for my ice cream. Yeah. Never get sick of it. And where's my small spoon that I need for my ice cream? You know, it's all endearing, right?

[Kia]

Yeah. It's quirks. It's what it makes us.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah, yeah. My eccentricities, you know, idiosyncrasies. So, yeah, it's made me more compassionate with myself, helped me to embrace some aspects of myself more fully. It's been good.

[Kia]

I think. I think that's been. I. So I met Dr. Anita a few years back. I was telling Jake before we started recording. I found myself in a situation where my grief counselor was transitioning and I had a mutual friend, Janiece. Hey, Janiece. Reached out and said, I'm going to send you somebody's information. And I connected with Dr. Anita and she was just really an awesome, awesome resource and clinician. But, you know, even, you know, after our relationship transition beyond that, like, you just. Just a. An amazing friend and just the, you know, it's been awesome to sort of see you. I feel like, you know, in the time even that I've known you, I've seen you bloom in a. In a way. And one of the things that is. I find most inspiring about, you know, just watching you and your work is that thread of destigmatization. We had a guest a couple of weeks ago talk about, you know, the power of stigma, negative stigma, how stigmas are formed around certain identities and, you know, as we talk about emotions and mental health. And I think one of the things that I feel like you preach and also sort of practice and model is just sort of this thinking about emotions and how our brains work and how our bodies function and embracing that as opposed to, like, being Critical. Critical of it. It's not something that we need to change, but, you know, along the lines of this. This idea of self acceptance, is that something that has been intentional in your work or, you know, you know, from. From the very beginning, or is this something that has just sort of evolved over. Over time?

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I'm going to pause real quick before I say that, because I'd like to state this for the codes of ethics as a therapist. When I got connected with Kia, I invited her in to say, hey, let's just talk. And so we didn't have a formalized insurance payment, therapy relationship. So I want to get that for all my clinicians out there who's just like, well, she was your client and now you her friend. And then. And so we do. We have codes and we have ethics. And so I wanted to make sure that I.

[Kia]

Yes, yes, I know. Important trouble.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Everything was, yeah, appropriate, y' all know,

[Kia]

like, she's over her past and.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Because those things have been important to me. And now I'm a pastor, and, like, sometimes people are like, can I be your clients? Like, no, you're my member. So, no, can't do that. And so my. While my clinical skills have definitely been a benefit in my opportunity to support. Support Kia and to pour into her, that is. That was what it was. So y' all don't have to file a report. So I. But on to the question, I think, yes, I have always looked at people from a baseline of this is who they are. How is the world being experienced through their lens? And I. Some of that. A lot of that is just personality in a ways. And so my observations, even as a kid, I would notice when my mom. My parents are both preachers, when my mom preaches. I could hear my mom, though I knew her personality. I knew her experiences. I knew things she was thinking about at home. And so I could hear that and I could hear my dad, and so I would notice those things. I've just always been good at kind of pulling the pieces apart and recognizing there's a person at the center and that people just come at things differently. So I think that's always just been intrinsic to the way that I've seen the world. And so as a result, it's intrinsic to the way that I work. You got to start with who and what you are and then move from there. And I think one of the big challenges we have sometimes had in trying to apply different psychological frameworks and concepts is the idea that we have been made the way we are by our environment. And what has happened to us. And I do not subscribe to that school of thought. We're not born blank slates. We come here with something already, and then how we come interacts with the environment we're in, and that can give us our outcome. But we never lose the fact that at foundation, at core, you are a being independent of what has happened after you left the womb.

[Jade]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah. I think that's really important.

[Jade]

You. Do you feel.

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

I.

[Jade]

Do you feel like that your. Your ability to see people in that way, to really see them, because this is so important. Right. I think that's also why so many of us get so triggered and polarized by people, because we will observe behaviors or the ways they affect us. And that's such a beautiful gift to see somebody's humanity at the core. Do you feel like that was innately in you, like as a. As a soul? Or do you feel like this was nurtured or it's a combo. Like, where do you think that this, this gift. In this. In this realization came from?

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I think that there was an aspect of it available within me already from a personality perspective. I'm an observer. I tend to have a natural capacity for objective observation. So there's a certain distance that I'm able to take and not. And because of that, I'm also introverted. I have a very internal locus of control. And so I'm more interested in, like, why would this person be behaving this way versus why are they doing it to me? And so that just was natural. And then I think being raised by ministers, you know, then it's like, how do you take care of people? How do you support people? So even though personality type wise, I'm more categorized as someone who would have become an engineer or chemist, but I felt like I'm supposed to take care of people. So I think I absorbed that from my environment. So people kind of became the machine that I was most interested in. But I still have that machinery viewpoint. Right. Which is pretty good. It's cool though, because we're not as unique as we think we are. Like, we are so not unique. And that is a really difficult thing for us to absorb, especially in, like, American culture. Western culture was like individual. Individual personality is so powerful. Temperament is so biologically seated. We are running the program installed at birth in so many ways. And until you, like, accept that and explore that, your chances of moving beyond that are almost nil.

[Jade]

The Internet has really helped people or really showed people that they are not unique in individuals. There's A creator who's like. He's like, this is me at 10 years old making up my own language. And he's doing it. And everybody's like, did I have a single unique experience? I'm like, no, girl,

[Kia]

not at all. Not at all.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

That is truly one of the benefits of social media. It's just like it is.

[Jade]

You know, I thought I was weak. Yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I'm just one of a.

[Jade]

Millions of millions.

[Kia]

Yes, exactly. I love that you mentioned, like, culture and socialization and how, you know, that. That sort of messaging around individualism. I think another sort of social construct or social idea that you have really helped me to unpack is. Is, you know, just embracing emotion and the wide range of emotion as a part of the human experience. So many of us have been socialized to think that we are too emotional when it's just our emotions doing what they are supposed to do. Can you talk a little bit about. Because I think that, to me, that's what the book, the Garden Within. It really gives us some language for understanding the role that each emotion plays in making us who we are and just embracing all of this as a part of self. So can you talk to us a little bit about 100? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Emotions are bodily experiences, and that is such an important thing for all of us to recognize. They are bodily experiences that precede our thoughts. So our feeling precedes our thinking. Our emotional life is the foundation. It is literally the soil in the garden. Nothing grows here that is not impacted by the soil. You cannot have a plant that is not impacted by the soil. And so if you think of the soil as the heart and the mind as the plant, then you really understand that we can have all different things planted. But it's called a plant. It can't even be defined outside of where it's planted. That is how dependent our thoughts are on our emotional life. So whether you're aware of the emotion physically in your body at the time, it doesn't matter. It is watering that plant. And so our thoughts have emotional movement in them. They are the water in the soil. So when you have a plant, a plant is flexible because of the water in it. If the plant starts wilting, it needs water. If the plant is devoid of water, it dies. And so emotion really is our moving force. And to be able to recognize that and embrace that is so important. But it is a transition that's been made in the science and in the culture. It's still happening. Just in the last 10 or 20 years, it started to come through but even still, I feel like there's still a stigma about it because we're starting to skip over it now. And we talk about nervous systems. My nervous system is at risk. My nervous system is dysregulated. No, you mad? Just say you mad.

[Jade]

I'm sad.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I'm scared. No, my nervous system is dysregulated. Like, we're still trying to accept that our bodies have power and they inform our experience, but not still being willing to name emotions that make us feel vulnerable. So I think we're still struggling with the labeling by defaulting to the nervous system language. So I'm really glad our bodies are involved. But our emotions are autonomic nervous system experiences. And I think it's important still to name them because that helps us know. First of all, just naming an emotion, especially a painful one, has been shown to bring down the intensity of it once it is acknowledged. But then also it lets me know what I need and how I can get those needs met and what I might do to build a life that doesn't leave me in a position to experience this emotion in this intensity, in this space over and over, if that's not what I want. Although there's no way to say I'm never going to be sad again, or never going to be angry or never going to be afraid, But I don't have to be angry about the same thing for 20 more years. We can. We can deal with this issue. So, yeah, emotion had a bad rap from the start. Western culture has always idolized the mind and suggested that thought is the mark of a higher civilization. And if we think about ethnic spaces, the more that the body is centered in a particular ethnic space or less, we see emotion travel with that. And so in ethnic spaces where dance is central and movement is central, we tend to see emotional expression also be central because it is the body. And when we find ourselves, ourselves in ethnic spaces where posture and stillness are celebrated, we tend to see more emotional repression. So the relationship between the body and emotional expression in any particular ethnic space really does give us a lot of information. And many of our theoretical approaches have been developed in more still postured, less emotionally expressive spaces. And so the theories become infused with that, and then we take it as a norm. But you can tell a lot by how central the body is in a cultural space, how much the body is celebrated, how much is out to move, to be seen. And we'll know a lot about what's happening emotionally as well.

[Jade]

You just said a word to me, right?

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

But it makes so much sense, right?

[Pharmaceutical Information Speaker]

You're like.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It does.

[Pharmaceutical Information Speaker]

Yeah. You know what I mean?

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Is automatically see the difference in the dance styles, whether people are dancing in pairs or in circles and groups or individually. All of that's telling us something about relationship. Do women dance with women? Do men dance with men? It. I mean, there's so much anthropological information that's available to us by just watching how the body is. Is dealt with and how we interact with others.

[Jade]

I have a friend who does weighted hula hoop classes specifically to help women. Black women release in their hips and where we hold the most tension. And I'm thinking about myself lately. I keep blaming it on my hormones, but maybe perhaps I am not moving my body enough and people are, you know, also very stupid. But I think maybe it could be both.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

You know what I mean? It could be both of them. Are we in the. How old are we? Are we in the very. Are we in the very life?

[Jade]

Oh, yeah, we're in the. We're in the early 40s. Yeah. You know, it's. It's. It's gonna come in soon. If it's not here, you know, the fibroids not helping. You know, she emits things out as well. And again, people are stupid.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

So it's all the things you can get with this or you can get with that, you know.

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

Okay.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

It's a little bit of both.

[Jade]

And I was gonna start singing. You can't do things like that. I'm gonna start singing the songs. You did it yourself. Look at you. No, you really just said a word. How do you. How do you talk to your clients? How do you help your clients to understand the relationship with. Between their emotions and their body? And what kind of recommendations do you give them for tapping into that?

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I always start with body on everything. Right. Because we want to work our way from the inside out. And so what's going on within you? Who are you again? I'm always personality baselining. Any client that I'm working with, we're going to. We're going to do a round of personality test first, because I want to know who you are at core, what's your base, and then what's going on with your body? So if someone is not connected with their bodies and aware of their emotion in their body, which is a lot of people, I may ask someone to think of an experience that they found distressing on a level maybe five or six out of 10. We don't have to go to the highest, but, you know, something that either made you sad or angry. Or afraid at a level of 5 or 6 on a scale of 10. And when they bring that up, then we can explore. Where do you feel that happening? Just slow down and take a moment. Like when you told me the story just now. What happened anywhere? Did your chest get tight? And I might notice you're bouncing your leg or you're gripping your hands. Things that they may not be aware of until you slow down to explore. So that's one way that sometimes I help people tap into that. Another would be to ask a person to make a sound that sounds like how the experience felt to them. Sound can really unclog things at times, especially in ethnic spaces where sound is so central to what we do do. Sometimes that makes it especially accessible. But it certainly is an access point for every human being because voice is a part of our bringing that nervous system back. So whether it's a groan or a yell or whatever, that sound or make a physical movement that shows how that situation felt to you. Somebody might want to curl up in a ball or somebody might want to throw a punch, you know, so just helping them realize. And we all have our lean, right? So just helping people realize the reason they know how they feel is because something happened in their body. But it's so fast, and we're so used to it, or we're so disconnected from it, we miss it. Because very often if I ask someone what. How they're feeling, they'll tell me what they think. You know, well, how did you feel about that, man? I think it was wrong. I didn't ask you what you thought. I asked you how you felt. And we'll go straight to what we think. We'll go straight to the conclusion or what we believe, which is legit, because emotion awakens beliefs. And so then we move straight to what we believe. But I want. Before that happens, I want us to be able to say, I was frustrated, I was anxious, I was humiliated. I, you know, really get to that emotional space. But if there's no words for it again, we can just drop into our bodies and just say, my chest is tight, or, you know, my stomach is hurting. Because the body is the. Is that first source. And when it comes to culture again. And sometimes I say culture, sometimes I say ethnicity. And there's some intentionality around that. But when we look at the fact that, for us, we are working with the English language, there. There are words in every language that don't translate directly to other languages. And those words are. 99% of the times those words are emotional. They have some emotional energy to them. And so the fact that they can't be translated directly is very significant because some emotions don't fully exist in every space. Right. And so, as black people in America, many of us may be carrying emotions in our body from generations that we literally don't have words for. Because in the loss of language, you lose more than you lose a lot of things. You lose memory, you lose communication, but then also being able to put words to something that's happening within me that may not exist in another language. And so I think the body is especially important for people who are negotiating life in a language that may not have been the original language of their ancestors.

[Jade]

Oh, it's so funny how epigenetics shows up everywhere, honey.

[Kia]

It's huge.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

It's not really all just trauma. You know, we talk about it that way, but there's so much more that we come here with, and that part is important. Like I said, we're born with certain temperaments and personality leanings. We know we are also born carrying stories.

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

With us, you know, and that blends in there, too. And how we interpret that is important to look at.

[Kia]

The body carries, like, even before we have words to articulate. Even before we know, to articulate certain things. The body carries. Even when you look at, like, little babies and they don't have words, but they certainly express.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

They do.

[Kia]

And so I think even, like, when you said that, you know, you ask somebody how they felt, they immediately go to what they think, like, what. What has shaped that? What has caused that in our behavior? Because it's super common. And so many of us, even our big, great grown, big ages, still struggle to really name what we're feeling. Like we know what the words are. Like we know. You know, I even. I think sometimes I have questions. I mean, conversations with my mom, and I feel like. Or anybody in my family, particularly, like, boomers. Right, Right. All of their emotions come out as aggression or they're talking rage, anger. But when I really talk to them, it's like, oh, this is nervous. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you're scared, you're surprised. Like, you know, like. Or, you know, but there's just. There's a tension. It's like when you really talk it through, and it's like, well, why are. Why this response? And when you really unpack it, it's like, oh, this caught you off guard. You. You were surprised by this information. You might be scared. You might be nervous, but why do

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I feel my daughter's Eyes on me. Even though she's across the country right

[Jade]

now, because my eyes are on my mother. And you're sharing energy. Well, I feel my daughter.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I feel my daughter giving me a face.

[Kia]

It's like, girl, first of all, calm down.

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

Okay.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Second, let's talk about it.

[Kia]

But why do you think it's so hard for us to bridge that gap and really name the feelings instead of all the feelings coming out one way?

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

As someone who's kind of in the middle? Right. My parents are boomers, but I'm older than you guys, so I'm in that transition generation where some of us are decided to do some thinking and make it make sense. And I feel like my daughter helped me with this one as well. It's been so important to me to have a healthy relationship with my daughter, because the mother daughter relationship, generationally, that's just not going well. So having a healthy relationship with her has been critical. And as a result, I've had to allow her to reflect me to me and believe the reflection. So she's helped me a lot, and she helped me with this. So fear, we talk about fight, flight, free, freeze. In our space amongst us sisters, we tend to have a fight response to fear.

[Kia]

Oh, yes.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

So that's what it is. Fight, flight, freeze. So it's fight. And so something would happen. You know, my daughter calls me from college. I'm looking for a new apartment, and I'm looking at this apartment, and I go straight to the crime website to see what the level of danger in that area. And I'm just like, oh, no, girl, this is that.

[Kia]

Why must you always.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yes, I know you want to be with our people. And also, like, can we negotiate like this? Yeah. You know, I went from 0 to 10, and she's like. And then later she's like, mom, like, it really shuts me down or really frustrates me when I feel like you're coming at me. And it's like, you raised me like, I am paying attention to these things. And so then I have to hear her. I'm like, okay. So it took a few of those for me to realize, okay, I have a fight response to fear. And a fight response comes out like a fight. So I seem angry when I really am just worried about you. And so it's my fight response. Now, in other places, we like the fight response, right? Don't start. And it won't be none. Don't come here. Don't bring it. And. And that is. There's some standards that we have around that and so we are action oriented. We black Americans have an emphasis on action orientation. Don't talk about it, be about it. Performative.

[Kia]

Don't be.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Perform like we want to see what you're going to do. Action is a high value in our culture. I believe it's a value in every group. But it is higher ranked than some others for us. And some of that brings out. That's the approach orientation. As we were saying, psychology. I'm more likely to approach than avoid. And that is wonderful when you tried it at the registrar's office and not as wonderful when my daughter needs me to hear her concerns about something. So we have to. Where we need to mediate some natural behaviors.

[Jade]

I just, just about to. You raise my hell. Yes, yes. Raise my child.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

This is, listen, this is the thing we so miss. We. Because it's hard to know ourselves.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Like we have individual personalities, but then in our ethnic spaces we have. I kind of. We have like a personality that we all look up to in that. That becomes our worldview. So worldview is really like a personality for the group. Right. And so action orientation is high in the. In the. In how we see life. And that can bring a lot of frustration, especially if you're interacting with another ethnic space where that is not emphasized as much. And we don't have the language to understand what is actually bumping up against each other right now. It's not often what we think, but we are looking at it through our lens. We're being seen through another lens, and it's like two different languages that aren't translating. And sometimes it's just a lightweight disagreement and sometimes it's dangerous enough for us to end up dead.

[Kia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

But really at the base, it's a. It's a misalignment evaluation.

[Kia]

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[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

Upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full [e-mail]

[Kia]

I love so many things about what you said all the way like from, from how much you, how much you value and how important your relationship with your daughter is. And I, I love that because I say to Jay often the way that she is mothering Noah has been healing to me in a lot of different ways. Right. Because I feel like it has shown me another, another way. And one, I think I've said this to you before, hearing you talk about the mother daughter relationship more specifically what, what wounds we might carry when that is not managed well. That was something that has sort of like blown my like peel my muffin cat back blue. Right. So, so, so yeah, I think that what you have given us with the garden within and just sort of with the longer arc of your work is some really useful language and metaphors for having, for broaching these things in ways that disarm. Right. Because it's helpful. Like I'm able to go to my mom and say something to her that does not put her on guard when I can explain it in a. In a very accessible way. So it's that I'm curious about the metaphor of the garden and where that came from. Yeah, because it really is so good. So what inspired that talk to us a little bit about just like, where that came from?

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah, that came definitely from my faith base. I am raised, you know, I'm a PK pk. So I'm raised in a. In a Christian space. And had not. I have challenged that at times, but here we are. I landed back in, in here. Me and Jesus ended up staying together. And, you know, that's my man. I'm a stick beside it.

[Jade]

I love it.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

And so when I was in, in my PhD program, I took my first neuroscience class. The first time that I saw a picture of a neuron in my textbook, I was blown away by how much it looked like a seedling. And even to the point where the names of the different parts of a neuron are named after garden analogies. Dendrites, the Latin word for branches. I mean, it's, it's. They were using this language heavily in neuroscience already. And so the body of the cell is called soma, which means body, seed. I mean, it's. They were there already. But for me, because I really do believe in the Creator, I'm just like, well, if I believe this, then if I believe the Creator made the plants and made us, then this must be intentional. So I saw it as an intentional element of the spirit, spiritual space. And so I dove into scripture and started looking at the many, many, many, many, many verses that describe us as plants, as grass, as trees. And specifically in Isaiah 58:11 will be like a well watered garden whose waters don't fail. And so we're getting this definition of well being as a garden. And so the Bible, whether someone embraces it as the sacred book or not, for any book to survive that long, there are universal truths in it. And so I'm like, I'm diving in. And so just going from Genesis, literally Genesis to Revelation, looking at every garden analogy, every time it says grass, every time it says trees, every time it says fruit, every time it says soil or earth or ground, and cataloging all of them. And a very clear system emerged. And so I have a section in the book that's called More than a Metaphor. Yeah, it is definitely more than a metaphor. It's an analogy. And analogy is consistent. So in the same way that Einstein observed that electrons circle a nucleus under the same forces that planets circle the Earth, it's the same. That's an analogy, but it's showing the same thing. The garden analogy that I found in Scripture, it works. It is not random. And I get frustrated sometimes because seeds represent something, soil represents something, and people will like, be all willy nilly like, oh, the seeds of your emotion. I'm like, seeds are not emotion. Soil is in the most words and beliefs because it's actually consistent in system. And I was blown away by it because I am a scientist at base. And so to see the data. So everything in the garden within has three columns of truth supporting it. If I didn't find it in botany, biology, slash psychology and theology, it's not in there. Every single one of the points that I make, I found the same data point in multiple places. So try. I triangulated them. As we say in qualitative research, they are triangulated so that no one can. And whichever area you want to come in, you want to come in the biology door, you want to come in the botany door, you want to. That's fine. But the data has been triangulated for every single thing and sometimes quadrangulated, depending on whether we're able to get into some sociology, some anthropology. So that, that's where it started, though. It started with my belief in the. In a creator and an intentional one. And so these things have to match. And that's how I dove in.

[Kia]

Super dope. And it strengthens all of that for me. And I think one of the things that I feel like you have helped so many of us do is to sort of bring that curiosity, that analytical part of ourselves to our faith spaces. Right?

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yes, please.

[Kia]

For those of us who, you know, it's not just about. Listen, you know, we've been socialized and we hear things, but many of us don't have a practice for interrogating and, you know, know, unpacking and thinking about why we believe what we believe. Yes. And the fact that, you know, you are there, you've demonstrated how, how we might go about testing. Because God says the Bible is very clear. He says, try me. Prove me right. It's not, it's not like. It's not just out here just, you know, that there's. There's some heft and rigor. Yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

God ain't never been scared.

[Kia]

Yeah. It's very much like, okay, yes.

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

And.

[Kia]

And there's. It is. I think that that's what. I think that's our responsibility. And. And it is. So many faith spaces have not handled that well for many. Yeah, many Believers and agree. Yeah, I'm grateful that you've been truthful about that. Like Dr. Dr. Anita has not, has not held back and held up some of the problematic ways that things have to have taken place down.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah. I mean we gotta disrupt all self harm anywhere we find it has to be disrupted. And, and really when we use our faith against ourselves, that's what it is.

[Kia]

It's self harm.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Like we can't continue to self harm individually, but also as a group, like we can't self harm. So if I see that, that hurts me for that person. And so I wanna not leave someone self harming at the individual or the group level. And sometimes at church it's then at the group level. And one of the things that I'm enjoying the most about being a pastor is the kind of church that I have the privilege of leading. It's in West Hollywood. The congregation is extremely young, overwhelmingly under in their early 30s or younger. And I'm just having a ball because the curiosity that's there, this is the make it make sense generation. So you people who actually want, want this to make sense to them and to their mental health and their relationships and their lives and, and not just throw a scripture at him and tell them what to do or not do. And, and that hasn't made anybody spiritually healthy or emotionally healthy. And your spiritual health cannot exceed your emotional health. It cannot absolutely exceed your emotional health. It is. Spirit is the seed, but the heart is the soil. And the soil can't outrun the, I mean the seed can't outrun the soil feel.

[Jade]

So this is so comforting because like he was saying, I've just heard so many older ones like, you know, who are like, I don't need therapy, I don't need to talk to nobody. This is not. Now you put somebody like yourself in front of them and it's like, what now? Well, now what are you gonna say? As well as those who, you know, those who believe that science and spirituality can't exist at the same time. I love the intersection that you are highlighting of all of those things existing together. And I think 100 beautiful, beautiful thing to witness because it's, it's at the core of us as, as humans.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Right.

[Jade]

Spirituality is so important and also science is so important and those things do actually go together.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Have you always been a scientist at your core as well? Because you've always been very human centered as well. Can you talk to us a little bit about how you were as a little.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah. There's a story that I. There's a story I often tell about the first time I learned the formula equals MC squared. And so that of course means if you move matter at the speed of light squared, it will become energy. So essentially it disappears. And so when I first learned that formula, I came home and told my parents, hey, today I learned that a scientist made a formula that describes how the rapture is going to happen. And my parents were like, what are you talking about? I was like, well, the Bible says we'll be changed in a moment of an eye. The twinkling of an eye is like super fast light, man. And so we're going to move be our bodies will be moved at that speed and then they'll just disappear into energy. And so I was like, so this is how God designed it to work. And then somebody figured it out and then they labeled it with these variables and they made a formula to explain what God had built into the system. Make this happen. And my parents were just like, that'll work. Yeah, and that'll work. And so my dad is also a very like, analytical mind. And he was just like, okay, I like it. And so there was no pushback on that for me. And so I've, yeah, I've been at this for, I've been at this, at this point.

[Jade]

I love that you were also supported and that you had a positive. It sounds like you had like a possibility model in front of you as well for somebody for, for parents who were let. Willing to let you explore your curiosity. Because that's often shut down too, especially with it. As you talk about culture, sometimes curiosity is shut down for us, especially when it also comes to religion.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Asking questions once upon a time was, was damning. It was disrespectful is what it was.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I wasn't allowed to ask questions that challenged that. That wasn't okay, I think. But like something like the E equals MC squared. I am starting with the Bible as my base. Then when I'm learning something new, my question is, how does this apply to the translate. Does that make sense? So, yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Kind of like if you've ever learned a second language for a long time, you think of your first language and then you translate in your mind to the new language. So Bible was my first language.

[Jade]

Okay.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

And everything I learned is like my brain would find something in scripture to click it to and then extend from that. So pattern recognition is, is my, is my superpower. And so that part was always welcome because I wasn't questioning scripture, I was explaining through that lens. But now, if I came in and was like, I know the Bibles say we ain't supposed to do X, but I think we should do. Yeah, that was a different.

[Kia]

That was different.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

No, but, you know, I definitely got to the point of being willing to do that kind of questioning, but not as a little kid. That. That wasn't as encouraged, you said.

[Jade]

No, that came with.

[Kia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

But I did have some more space than others because my dad was educated, and he felt like education was a good thing. So, okay, I had more space than others, but not all the space.

[Kia]

That point, though, because so many of us were brought up in spaces where we were not allowed to, you know, don't question God. And that sort of. That sort of cultivates a sense that our questions are sinful or inappropriate. Right. You know, particularly when, you know, I think even now in my adulthood, I've been reframing a lot of that, like, in real time, trying to heal.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

She's like, reframing, like, heal, heal, release,

[Kia]

recover, certainly, because it's like, you know, we talked about it on the show before, and I was actually talking to Fran about this over the weekend because we were talking about just some of the differences in the way that we see our friends parent. And I told Fran that I had. I was writing a little reflection for my substack, and I was. It's called God is a gentle parent. And it took me a long time to really come to accept that. But, you know, we are not like we are we. I grew up in a you do what I tell you to do household. You don't ask hundred questions kind of household. For most of my life, I looked at my relationship with God in that very same way. But I think now that I have more understanding and can sort of look at things on my own, I'm realizing that God welcomes my questions because he wants me to have understanding. But how. How. How did you turn that corner for, you know, how did you come to a place growing up in a place where you were not permitted to challenge or.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah, for sure.

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

Or.

[Kia]

Or, you know, like, how did you come to a place to. How did you flip the switch on that? And.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

So I know I'm beating this horse dead, but it's a fact. I'm gonna go back to personality again.

[Jade]

Okay.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Because I think we have different personalities. And so some. Some of us are more natural rule followers. And so if you tell me to rule, I'm gonna follow it. I'm not going to challenge it. Some of us are not as Natural rule followers. I'm not a natural rule follower, but I'm also not a high physical risk taker. So you might tell me, xyz and I don't agree with you. I'm not gonna say I don't agree with you because you're not gonna beat me to death, you're not gonna put me to death, but I don't agree with you. You know what I mean? So it's just things. So for me, I was able, I had times because I listened to my parents preach and I spent so much time in scripture, I could recognize when something wasn't lining up. And then I'm just like, yeah, nah. But you know what? You cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. You stay with that. I'm leaving for college and two more years and I'm going to be on my own. So I had some awareness of that. I can remember one time my mom and I were in it about something and she said. And I said, well, what if I have different values than you? And she said, well, my values are God's. You can argue with God. And I just didn't even say nothing else because I was like, don't put that on God. Don't put that on God. That's all you. So my mind just worked differently because I didn't have a personality that automatically attributes authority to external sources. I'm an enneagram5. I'm an INTP. We are skeptical of authority in terms of, you really need to prove to me why what you're saying is true or else I'm going to investigate it for myself. So personality difference helped with that. But one of the things I did have to get out of my system with God was a punishment orientation. If you do something wrong, you know, we didn't get time out, we didn't get grounded. We got knocked out.

[Kia]

Yes. Knocked to the ground.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Right?

[Kia]

That's right.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

And so I noticed as I was like, if any little thing, if I stub my toe, if any little thing happened, I would freeze. Like, is God. Did I do something that God trying to get my attention? You know what I mean? I'm just like, girl, that's. That's crazy town. But it was still happening. So I had to observe that in myself and then work, work through that. What does scripture actually teach me about who. Who Jesus is? What does scripture actually teach me? Because a lot of times if we grow up saturated in a Christian space or, and I'm sure this is true in other religious spaces that have a sacred text and an institutionalized system of access. We take it from our families versus investigating it for ourselves. Do I know what page to flip to to find that? Have I read this entire book? Or have I just absorbed the lessons I was given through the ones I was given It.

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

It.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

And so me going back to those pages and being like, wait a minute, this is not lining up. This ain't even in here.

[Jade]

What's going on?

[Kia]

Where'd y' all get that from?

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Because that's not what it said. That's not what it says.

[Jade]

That's not what it says.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah. Knowing scratch with the Bible was very important for me.

[Kia]

It's just like, we're gonna have to

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

go scratch with the book. Yes, you gotta do that. So that helped.

[Kia]

Kennedy Ryan was on Kevin Stage's podcast recently, and she was talking about heirloom faith. She's like, so many of us have heirloom faith. It was passed down. It was passed down to us by our grandmothers. And we just hold it as it is. Like, we don't. Like, you know, we've just made it. We've adopted it as an heirloom. But, you know, there's. Instead of engaging it as. As in applying it to our lives and lived experiences, that's something that. Yeah, I'm still sitting with. I'm like, that. That's wild. Heirloom. Yeah. So many of us. Well, that's what my. Especially me, like, you know, it's like. Well, d. I said, it's like, okay, right.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

And. And part of that is our. Is linked to our African spirituality, for sure. Because African spirituality, the view of. African view of. Let me say it this way, because some people will hear African spirituality as me talking about a religion. When I say this, I mean the traditional African worldviews per se perspective on the invisible world. What's going on over there? And our view of the invisible world is that there is order there, there is information there, and there are certain permanent structures that don't change. And so if you take that and translate it to American context, we all. If you grew up Baptist, Pentecostal, you know what a statement of faith is. You got your statement of faith. We never changed them. The statement of faith that was written for your denomination in 19 ought. Whatever, has never been changed.

[Kia]

Correct.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

But if you go to a majority white denomination like the sbc, their. Their statement of truth or. Or belief has been revised, expanded, added on to. They're voting on it. Should we add this? Child, that statement of faith been the same for us.

[Jade]

Us.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

That document has never been Centuries.

[Kia]

No.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

No one has suggested that we change it. We. When we believe that something has been extracted from the spirit realm, that's it. It's set. It's not. It don't evolve. That's not how. And that's one of the things that has kept us anchored, that no matter what happens out here, I know God's still on the throne. That's an echo of that. There's an anchor in that. And so it has been a. Important to us and also hindered us a bit. It's okay for us to return to the pages of scripture and. And explore it for the. For the era that we live in, for the moment that we are. And that doesn't mean we're adding to scripture or taking away from scripture as some of our. Our. Our church mothers would be concerned about. But yeah, even the fact that we talk about mothers so much more than. Than the church fathers is. Is very much an ethnic reflection, because in mainstream theological explorations, they talk a lot about the church fathers who wrote this and said this, but we talk about the mothers and not just because the men weren't around. It's more than that. There's a recognition of the knowledge that the mother, the grandmother, the great grandmother carries, and it's a recognition of that. So I. I never want us to miss the beauty of our expressions of faith, thinking that they are just the result of our enslavement. That is not. They have survived that they existed before that and have taken on a new shape and voice. And we have to find the beauty before we start removing what we think might not be beautiful.

[Jade]

Oh, you came with a garden full of knowledge and. Yeah, like, helpful tips. I'm really sitting here.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I'm like. I want to respond.

[Kia]

Respond.

[Jade]

And I'm really just kind of soaking all this in right now. This is. No, this is so beautiful.

[Kia]

And.

[Jade]

And

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

yeah, I'm.

[Jade]

I'm sorry, I'm really just kind of referring.

[Kia]

No, I mean, you're saying.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I love that. Yeah. What's sticking out for you?

[Jade]

The conversation about mothers and. And the beautiful anchor that they are. And also going back to our earlier conversation about those wounds also being so great as well. Yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I mean, the depth of the wound reflects the power of the position.

[Jade]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And also thinking about what you were saying earlier about how you re. Your. Your daughter.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

You.

[Jade]

Your daughter being a reflection and you actually being able to take that in.

[Kia]

Believe it. It.

[Jade]

I'm like. I'm just. I'm processing all these things at once because I'm doing The same with mine.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah.

[Jade]

But also, you know, she'd be triggering me sometimes too. And then how old is she? You know, then she'll be 13. Oh, bless God. But it's not, it's not even her attitude really. Yeah. Please.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I receive. I receive all.

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

Yeah.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

But she's not really like, she's not really a monster, which is nice. She. It's just when I, the challenge I think is, is really myself in the, that I have to work on. Excuse me. And, and what comes up for me in, in when she reflects certain things back to me and then also like still having my own mother stuff. My mom is still very much around, but still having that and then being like, oh, take extracting the beautiful parts of that. The anchor. The, the parts that anchor. And then the revisions as well. It's just so many things.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah. We should always be checking on what age our kids are, especially daughters for mothers, fathers for sons, because there's that more direct reflection and where we were at that age. What was happening to us, what we were walking through. Because they will wake up our inner child at every stage. And so who. What's up with 13 year old Jade? What was she walking through? What was going on with her? Because that will be triggered. And then 15 year old and 17 year old. So there's. But as they're growing up, we kind of walk back through our childhoods with them and we're bumping into our pain or our unresolved things. And so that can have a major impact. So definitely doing that therapeutic work around those different developmental stages. I think that. And then dead horse aside, knowing the difference between her personality and yours, because historically in every group, the kids who have. Whose personalities more naturally match their parent, particularly their mother, have better outcomes. And the kids who have a personality type that kind of clashes with their mother have less healthy outcomes because they just didn't understand each other very well. And so for a child to have a less healthy parenting experience just because we had a different personality is a great tragedy. And it happens a lot.

[Jade]

Oh my God.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

And so. Right. Add a layer to that. When we've had challenging experiences with our mothers, we have raising our daughters and even our sons thinking, I don't want, I don't want to do what my mother did. Chances are 99% if you. And if something that bothered you about your mother, you're naturally not going to do it. That's why it bothered you. So you don't even have to really think about it that much if it bothered you it's because it's not you. And then we try to give our kids what we needed, but if they have a totally different personality, they might need something totally different. So we can't give them what we needed. We need to give them what they need. And that's a challenge. Which is why I can't assume we

[Kia]

know what they need either.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Of course. General stuff like love.

[Kia]

Well, yeah, but like, how. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jade]

How they need. Yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

And I miss. I miss some things early on. Not realizing my daughter needed something very different than what I needed, just on a personality level. And then when she was older and able to articulate it, I was able to, you know, bob and weave and say, okay, I have to transform into her mother. There were certain things about my personality that I just felt like, she's an orange. She needs oranges, and I'm an apple tree. And now I gotta. I gotta grow some oranges. Daggett, we got. We gots to figure that us out. Because he's not gonna suffer because I just happen to not understand her.

[Jade]

Because I'm not a hugger.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yes. Or whatever. Become one. Yes. Because I'm interested. She's extroverted and she needs her friends around. And I'm like, you want people to come over the house again today?

[Jade]

Can you go over there?

[Kia]

Wow.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Stuff.

[Jade]

Okay, wait, hold on. You've mentioned this personality thing. Like. Like, it's big. I. But so I'd like. Like to just ask. I just want to delve into that a little bit more really quickly. How do you. Is this the person that. The personality test? Like, what is it? How do you determine these different personalities and then figure out how to work with the various ones in betwixt.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah. So I have a theory that I. A personality theory that I created. And so I translate everything through that lens. So obviously everybody can't do that.

[Kia]

That third.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

But I'm gonna think that's gonna be my third book, but.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I encourage people to take, like, some of the more popular personality tests that exist. If you're not with a therapist who can give you a clinical one. The 16 personalities is a really good one. And the Enneagram is a really good one. Really good. And being able to recognize. But just looking at the basics, like, I love to be around people. I love to be by myself. I love to read or I love to listen to music. I listen to the same music over and over. And then someone else likes to find new songs every day. These are, like, all indicative of these kind of differences. Right. And so when we look at that, we can recognize my child might need something different than me. And how do I let her teach me not only who she is or who they are, but what they need. And so I recognize my daughter needed a lot more relational interaction action. Her friendships were much bigger deal for her than mine when I was little. She doesn't need as much alone time as I do. And so I have to facilitate that for her. And if that means I have to make sure I get extra sleep and remain calm because I have to memorize five kids mothers names and set up play dates and go outside and make conversation with these people while she plays, then that's what I gotta do.

[Kia]

Wow.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Because that's what she needs and I'm her mother.

[Jade]

No, you're right. I know. Oh my God. Okay, so. So we're having this birthday cookout.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I feel you already.

[Jade]

And most of the time her school friends can't come, which is really such a blessing to me. That's not fair. Because of what her birthday is. And so then. But we've created all these other communities and family friends and family and so forth and so on that. So it never feels empty anyway, this time some of them can come come. So. And I'm like, I'm having, you know, it's our people and then it's a few of the school friends. So one of the mothers hit me and was like, is this for the families too or just the kids? And it's not just a kids party. But I also was like, this lady's gonna come in this cookout and be jarred as all hell. Okay. She not gonna be ready for this.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I can two separate events. It.

[Jade]

I do. But also I'm kind of like, I'm waiting for it to be my personal entertainment as well. Because I'm like, you know what? Come in here and be uncomfortable. Yeah, like I want you to come in here. You're going to be a part of whatever this community is because my child comes into you all's world in this school and in these activities and so forth and so on. No, y' all gonna come over, you're gonna hear this ghetto blaster, you're gonna eat this potato salad and you're gonna have a good time.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Time.

[Jade]

So. And if you don't, then you just will never come back again.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Anyway, that just came a lot of hard work. You know, we had that. Our kids went to private schools, very different space. And then they had, you know, good old black church and family and yeah, that was always fun. That was always.

[Jade]

Which makes them well rounded individuals. They just put you in so many social scenarios. You're like, I didn't make this choice and I never would.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

But here we all are together. But if that is what they need to experience their life in a healthy, meaningful way.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Then I'm gonna make that happen. I'm gonna learn to respond differently. I've learned to man, I had to learn a lot of new skills to, to mother her well. And I, and I'm. But it was worth it.

[Kia]

Question.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

It's worth it. Yeah.

[Kia]

I feel like we can have a whole nother conversation about mom.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I know, right? I think we're out of time.

[Kia]

I really want to ask, so. Well, I think you're talking about thinking about your daughter when you were her age. I often now that I, I think about my mom like when my, like what it must have been like for her when she was my age. And I think that that in some ways has helped me to understand, you know, some of the choices that she made. But there's also the attention of like reconcile that like, you know, I understand why what the, what the conditions were that informed her, you know, decision to do this or not do this or however. But you know, there is also like, you know, I was still hurt by it. It still impacted me in a certain way. Is it healthy for me to think about my mom's age in that way? That's.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I think it's healthy in that empathy is a good thing. We can understand. And also understanding how someone became who they are is not a pass for them. For me to continue to allow you to mistreat me. And so understanding how they got from A to B or A to Z, okay. That may help me with forgiveness, with releasing angst. And also I may still need a boundary with this person so that I am not continually wounded again, because understanding how they got here doesn't make. Make me some kind of superhuman who can't be hurt. I'm still vulnerable to being wounded. And that is, and that is my right and also kind of my responsibility and the protection of my inner child. To make safe space for her to be re parented by me and for me to then change the way I move in relationship and you know, find balance in my way of interacting with others. And if I'm continually being rewounded is very hard to get, get that work done. And so it doesn't remove the need for boundaries. If this person is still committed to not hearing me and I don't need to attribute Intention to it. But the behavior has persisted. I'm being mistreated. I'm a big boundary fan. And I, and I have had to draw some difficult boundaries with people. Some people in my own family where it's like, this is just not healthy.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Walk around with a busted knee and you keep busting you, Right?

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

And it's like. Yeah, I might understand. They have a, a kicking disorder and they can't control their leg. They keep kicking me in the knee, but I'm not going to stand near you.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Because eventually I'll cut your leg off.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

A problem.

[Jade]

It's best that I go over there. Oh, Dr. Anita, you have to come back, please.

[Kia]

I was just about to say, because this mother wound conversation I want us to really get into because I feel like there's, there's a difference between, like, you know, just differences or, you know, just relational disagreements and, and wounds. And I, I feel like I want us to sort of deal with that specifically. So maybe we'll find some more time for you to come back in, in a few weeks or a month whenever you're, whenever you're available. And we can really dig into that one. But this has been dope.

[Jade]

Absolutely.

[Kia]

I'm so excited.

[Jade]

Yes. Oh, you are in that third book. Go ahead and get on that. Oh, okay.

[Kia]

Tell us about the second one right quick. Like, you know, the second one is

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

going to be called the Fruitful Life. Four Steps to Making the Right Decision Every time. Oh, this book is about decision making and how to make the right decision every time. It's possible.

[Jade]

You wishy Washy hoes absolutely need that literature.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

That would be me, you know. You know, Jade, I may have to have you write an endorsement for the

[Ryan Reynolds]

book

[Jade]

to come back for your secular. If you did any translation into Raggedy.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I got you recommended for Wishy Washy Hoes by

[Kia]

forward. I love.

[Jade]

Make sure you all, you all check out the description box because we will have the link to Dr. Anita's first book so that you all can at least check that. You have to come back talking about the second one, the mother wounds and all of the things in between. But, but please, thank you so much for, for sitting with us for this what felt like too short of a period of time.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Thanks for having me at the table.

[Jade]

Yeah. Your transparency is so refreshing and so beautiful. You all check out the description box and stay tuned for the next segment. We'll see you in a minute. Paramount plus is now the home of all your BET favorites.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

That sounds nice. With all new Episodes of All the Queen's Men. You stand up when you talk to the queen. Plus a whole new world of movies

[Kia]

like Gladiator 2, I must have Power.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Original series like the Shy.

[Kia]

Life comes at you fast whether you ready for it or not.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

In live sports like ufc.

[Jade]

Unbelievable new home. Welcome to paradise.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Same family.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

That's all that matters to me. Your BET favorites are now on Paramount plus and subscribe now.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone. Paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

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[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I deserve.

[Kia]

I know that's right. First of all, Dr. Nita has got to come back. Okay.

[Jade]

Like seven times. Like seven different conversations. So many.

[Kia]

I just, I think that this was a good sort of like, introductory conversation for giving us some of the grounding sort of language and ways that we can think about this. But there's so much to talk about. And that last conversation toward the end around, like, mother, daughter relationships, distinguishing, like wounds from, you know, just differences and, you know, we got. We got to dig into that deeper.

[Jade]

Yes. All the things. Yes. We need to. What a gift. What a gift you are, Dr. Anita, to all of us. And also, if I may, I was sitting here thinking about it. I was like, you know, she's so refreshing because, yeah, no, I'm not a church kid and I'm not a church lady, but what a. What a very useful way that she presents things. Right. In a way that makes sense. And I feel like you do the same as. Well. I'm not saying that you've been up here being a deeply annoying Bible thumper, but

[Kia]

actively trying not to do that.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Jade]

No, you really don't. You're really not.

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

I don't.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah.

[Jade]

First of all, can I also say yes. When I was watching your video the other day of you singing. Oh, I got emotional so I don't have to, sister. I did.

[Kia]

I was like, no way.

[Jade]

That better sing with her cold scrunched up in this church. No. It was so beautiful. It was so beautiful.

[Kia]

Thank you, sister. That was. I was singing from a place. I was thinking through something that I know.

[Jade]

I think that's why I got emotional.

[Kia]

Yeah. You know, and the day that I learned that Brian passed, I had sung that morning. And so when my friend Jarod asked me to sing, I was just like, wow, okay, what are we doing? And there was a part of me that was like, nah, I don't really feel like it. But I really just kind of wanted to sing through it, you know, And I felt like I needed to do that. And I'm glad that I did, because no matter what, you know, I still gotta thank you. And that was what. What that. What that was. But appreciate you for saying that. And I think that that's really why I so grateful for Dr. Anita and her work, because I. To your point, she is really an example of how, you know, so many, like, I think for how we as believers are supposed to bring our brains to the equation. Right. So so much of. I think there's just so much unhealthy religious indoctrination that is happening, and there's so much harm that has happened as a result of that. And I think that that misrepresents sort of what the. The intention of some of the faith practices are supposed to, you know, what they're supposed to do that misrepresents them in so many ways. I think it misrepresents God in so many ways. And so I think that Dr. Anita's work and her example of how she does her work to me, helps us learn how to, like, really deconstruct what we believe and make sure that we're believing from a place of. Of health and not harm.

[Jade]

Yeah. And I. And I think that's what it is really, especially for those. For those, I think, in and out of the church. I think for those that are. That are in the church, these are. This is important because a lot of these harmful attitudes and rhetorics and things that have been passed down as we. Heirloom, would you say? Heirloom.

[Kia]

Heirloom faith.

[Jade]

Heirloom faith that has been passed.

[Kia]

Come on. We can thank Kennedy Ryan for that. And Kennedy Ryan's a part of my black women's self care.

[Jade]

But yes, you know what? That's a good transition. Go right on into that now, actually.

[Kia]

Yes. Kennedy Ryan. Now I actually have just really come first. Come into contact with Kennedy Ryan and her work. Kennedy Ryan is a New York Times bestselling author right now, and she is, you know, what all the girls are talking about my black woman self care is that I am very deep, deep down in my reading bag yet again.

[Jade]

Oh, yes, I love that.

[Kia]

And I am enjoying it. And so Kennedy Ryan, I have read she has a series out now that is sort of, sort of loosely. Well, it's about the Harlem Renaissance, but it is about sort of just like how. How we are honoring sort of that period of history and how it still can show up in sort of current stories. And I'll be honest with you, sister. Y' all know that I am not really one. I'm not. I'm not a romance girly. You know, that's not just. That's never been something that, you know, really has felt like any of my business. But I will say that, and I think I was talking to Toya about this because I feel like a lot of romance novels, it's like, you know, it's hard for me to find balance in romance literature because I think

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

it's

[Kia]

got to be the right balance. Right? It cannot be all sex, no story. Sometimes it's too much story, not enough. You know what I'm saying? So the balance matters. And I think Kennedy Ryan very masterfully balances, you know, the. The realistic and practical aspects of relationships. And she presents romance in a way that feels real and healthy and practical. And there is some fantasy and aspiration in there, like, you know, oh, this, you know, some feel good about it, but it's not overwhelming to the point where it feels like Hallmark movie, you know what I'm saying?

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Kia]

And I have. So there's. This is the. There are two parts in the series. Two. Two of the. Of a three part series have.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Have.

[Kia]

Have been released. Real and score. I read score. First score was number two. Real was number one. I was told by my friend Lillian. Hey, Lillian. That I did not have to read. Yes. Lillian put me on. She told me that I didn't have to read them in order. And she was right now. But I did. I read the second one and immediately went and got the first one. And I will tell you that I have read. I read the first one in about 48 hours now, mind you, I had a long flight, but it was a good book. You see what I'm saying? Like, I moved right through that. I moved right through that. And I am just really enjoying Kennedy Ryan's perspective in this space. And I think as I am thinking about healthy ways to dissociate from all of the overwhelm that can be a part of our everyday life, I'm really back into reading. And I've been reading nonfiction for a long time, but getting back into some good fiction has really been good for me. It has been so good. I was in Portland and got to see Franny Gua. Also another devil whammy for the self care.

[Jade]

Oh, it was so good to spend

[Kia]

some time with Franiqua. It was a blessing. We got to see brother Dante. All the things. It was good, my brother. I love it. And you know, it was just, you know, I'm just grateful. I just. I feel like I'm deep back into. I was in Portland for a few days. I didn't turn the TV on like for a couple of days because I was reading these books. And it was so good to just be back in that I was one of the kids that would grow up reading and feeling sad. I haven't, you know, And I love that. I feel like I'm reconnecting to that part of myself. Cause I read for work. I read all the time for my writing and those kinds of things. So I've always been a voracious reader. But just getting back into some good fiction has been healing for me. And so shout out to Kennedy Ryan. I'm so proud of you, girl. And I know you don't know me from Adam, but I love it.

[Jade]

You're like, you really sparked something for me.

[Kia]

I mean, girl, it is good. And you know, that's what I'm saying. And y' all know I got an icebox where my heart used to be. So I don't really give a damn about this romance stuff. But it's good, you know, it's not. It's not like it's not. I. I'm surprised that I'm enjoying the books. This is what I'm saying. Because the girls be like, want you to read this romance. And it's just like that. Don't feel like anything. I need to be reading. But this has been. I've been. I've been pleasantly surprised because it is real impractical in a way that feels really good.

[Jade]

I mean, that's what love is and should be and all of those things. Right? I love that. I love that so much.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Well, what is my self care this week? So, you know, I made a video for you all in January and said I'm holding myself accountable. You know, I. This is my love letter is the very wrong thing to use here. This is my accountability post.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

And to myself and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Did none of it right. We're now in June, almost July now. What I am doing though, is still is not beating myself up over what was not and just trying to Push myself into, you know, more of what I know I need to be doing and have been resistant to. So I'm hoping hosting a pop up people. Hey, as you're listening to this, it is coming up on Monday.

[Kia]

Yes. You talked a little bit about this last week, I believe, sister.

[Jade]

I did. Okay, good. All right.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

I.

[Jade]

If I.

[Kia]

This is a double tip.

[Jade]

This is another one. Yeah, this is me. This is me doing this because I need to do it for myself.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Absolutely.

[Jade]

Absolutely.

[Kia]

So.

[Jade]

Oh, the fifth is a Sunday. So it's actually Sunday, July 5th.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Oh, I switched the bar. I did. Because I said peach barbecue sauce. Right. I'm doing.

[Kia]

You did.

[Jade]

I'm doing a homemade hibiscus barbecue sauce to honor the extension of Juneteenth. And my reasoning behind this is also, I'm like, listen, you know, love to put a lot in the name of Juneteenth, don't they? And it's really annoying. But. And I'm not talking about gathering and enjoying one another, but, you know, a. We. To stop. To stop taking focus away from what Juneteenth was in the region and the area and what, you know, who it. Who it really affected.

[Pharmaceutical Information Speaker]

And.

[Jade]

But I also know how. How we love to celebrate that as a people, and there's a reason for that.

[Pharmaceutical Information Speaker]

Right.

[Jade]

But also in the vein of being told things late, you know what I'm saying? We're going to keep extending this because I feel like they told on Juneteenth they was free, and then, you know, not everybody in Galveston found out that they were two years behind. Like, there had to be a trickle.

[Kia]

Right.

[Jade]

It had to be some days, some weeks, for things to really get around. This is not based off of any historic. This is me using my imagination mixed with.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Jade]

My actual knowledge of said Juneteenth.

[Kia]

Absolutely.

[Jade]

So I was like, you know, July 5th will be Juneteenth extended because I'm sure were still getting free on July 5th, you know what I'm saying? You know, when it all went down. And so we're doing. But to honor Also the region where. Remember Galveston, Texas.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

So to honor that, I am doing smoked brisket sandwiches, as I told you all before, smoked pulled chicken sandwich as well.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

Both of. Both of them will be grilled down with the hibiscus homemade barbecue sauce. We're doing a pickled red onion to honor the reds. That's what the hibiscus barbecue sauce.

[Kia]

I see.

[Jade]

To honor the reds. Remember, red is. Is the color of resilience in Juneteenth. And then you Know on my sides and so forth and so on. Anyway, link in the description box. That's my self care this week. I'm pushing myself to continue to do more. This will not be the end, you know what I'm saying? But this is the first thing I've done since the, since the dinner parties. And I was like, so are we like a once a year girly type of situation? You gotta do better.

[Kia]

We're doing, we're doing the best we know. Don't judge it. Don't judge it.

[Jade]

I, I know, I know.

[Kia]

There's so much happening. You just have to. You're taking the steps, you're moving at the pace that you're supposed to move. This is going to be great. You're sharing your gifts with the people where it's all good, sister. And this is going to be a time.

[Jade]

It's my Virgo nature to be judgy and nasty. So even toward myself, I'm working on that. You know what I'm saying?

[Kia]

All right, so all is well. All is well. Y' all make sure that y' all pop out to support my sisters. Pop out. Okay.

[Jade]

Thank you so much. Yes, pop out for the pop up. Sunday, July 5 in bed Stuy at Deep Dive Brooklyn bar. And again, you all can get the link in the description box for how you can pre order your, your goods, everything, very much things. But with all that being said, what you all can do is send in your petty peeves.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Kia]

And we have a couple that we had that have been sent in. So you want to head over to the.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yes.

[Kia]

Head over.

[Jade]

What a chaotic exit to that.

[Kia]

It's okay.

[Jade]

All as well.

[Kia]

Let's do it.

[Pharmaceutical Announcer]

Country.

[Kia]

Petty, petty, petty. All the same to me playing James Spaghetti.

[Jade]

All right, time for the petty peeves. Now listen here. A little bit of this is me. I'm gonna go ahead and put it out there right now. A little bit of it is me and the rest of it is not. So. Okay, I made this, this appointment for Noah at the dermat at a dermatologist, right? Found a black dermatologist. Black. It was black, man. But I was like, all right, you know, been practicing for a long time. Blah, blah, blah, cool reviews, decent enough. Nothing, Nothing egregious where I was like, no, except I should have paid attention to two of them. So we go to the. So I. So I make the appointment, they call me, they confirm the appointment, they confirm the insurance, all that stuff.

[Kia]

Okay, cool.

[Jade]

They were like, you know, we ask you bring in your ID and your insurance Card.

[Kia]

Card.

[Jade]

I was like, we don't have physical insurance cards. I was like, you know, you have to special request those. You know, I have a digital copy. Okay, well, we do prefer that you print it out. I'll do my best. Okay, now this is where it's me, right? I forgot because I'm trying to do many things and get this to the appointment. So I forgot. So I get there, they give me the packet of the stuff start. I feel like the whole packet. Can we get your d. Your driver's license and. And the insurance card? I was like, oh, you. I said, I'm be honest with you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I.

[Jade]

My printer is not working a Because side petty peeve you hp. Why do I need a subscription for my printer to work? This is a scam and I would have never bought that had I known.

[Kia]

We need a printer for all the things. I mean, a subscription for all the things. That was my petty P from the other week. Like, we need apps and subscriptions for everything. Just. It is just the most maddening thing to me.

[Jade]

So I need you all I t people go ahead and email us and let us know what are the best printers to buy without these subscriptions because they scam you and don't tell you when you buy them. Anyway, back to the original petty P. The op. So. So I was like, yeah, I didn't have a chance. My printer is not working. Actually forgot as well. So sorry, you know, couldn't make it to the Kinko. So whatever the. Wherever you print now. So I was like, can I just send you this digital copy? I'd like to preface this with I understand that every office does not work the same, but across so many different types of doctors, dentists, etc. Etc. Offices at this point in time, they are all like, you can just. Just email us, you know, here's the email address. Because most people have digital cards now.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Yeah.

[Jade]

So I was like, yeah, sorry, I don't have it, but I have this digital card.

[Kia]

I mean, why can't they print it like I'm sending? I have like you right here.

[Jade]

This is why they're my petty peeves. So.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Jade]

So I go. She's like, okay, let me. Let me. Let me just figure it out. And you just sit down, fill out the packet.

[Dr. Anita Phillips]

Cool.

[Jade]

Hey, Mrs. V. So the doctor's not going to be able to see you today because you don't have a physical copy of your insurance card. I said, they're going to cancel my whole appointment. Instead, when I'm showing you the digital card right Here I was like, can I just email it to you? And you print it on that big fucking printer I see behind you. You. Yeah, we don't accept emails from outside. What people? Because we've been sent some things that we're not supposed to have. I'm sorry that somebody air dropped y' all a dick pic. Can I send my child insurance card like you can.

[Kia]

This is the card I'm going to

[Jade]

send to you right now in front of you. I swear, I'm not going to go inside the bathroom, take a picture, I'm a pom pom, and send it to you.

[Kia]

You. Oh, my God.

[Jade]

So she's like, yeah, I'm so so. And, you know, it's one of those things where she's a black girl, it's a black doctor. But then I just. It's a black girl. I don't want to go off on this girl. It's not this girl's fault for this policy in this office. I know that. Right. I also. Oh, anyway, that's another conversation. I know this office is run dated because I could tell by the conversation the girl was having on the phone when I got there, but that's another conversation. So I was like. She was like, if you want, you could finish filling out this packet and I can put it in the file and I can reschedule you right now. And I was like, no. I was like, I need to think about this for a second because I'm really, really aggravated, and I don't want to take that aggravation out on you, but I can't tell you in this very moment how I want to proceed. Proceed. So I'm gonna go. And she was just like, okay, you don't want to reschedule right now? I said, I. I don't want to do anything but go right now because I really don't want to get angry. Part of this is my own fault, and it's not. And it's also fully not your fault. So, like, I need to go work that out. Right? I leave. I think about it a little bit. And I said, yeah, no, the blood, I'm. Nope, nope. I called the office. I said, hey, I just left. She's like, yeah, Mrs. V, you want to go ahead and schedule that appointment? I said, I don't. And just like I told you at the office, I don't want to take my frustration out on you, but I'd like you to send a memo to the doctor. Tell him, as a mother who traveled 35 minutes within Brooklyn to get to this office. Office. Dealing with this subscription, looking at his printer in his office, that his very dated and stringent policy is really annoying. I was like, you let him know that I said that. I said, I'm not going to reschedule the appointment and shred my packet. And she was like, okay, I'm really sorry. I said, I don't want you to apologize on the behalf of a policy that I know you have to uphold as you are the face and is unfair to you. I was like, but I want you to know that his unwillingness to even see a patient when they come in there knowing that they have the insurance because you don't have a physical card. Go to hell.

[Kia]

So that's wild.

[Jade]

So I am.

[Kia]

And I could.

[Jade]

I'm telling you, I could tell by how I could tell by the conversation when I walked in there. There I was like, these girls are working in a very. I. I remember working in environments like this. I know this is dated as I know it is. There's multiple things that showed me that it was dated. So it's probably best that we left anyway. But yeah, that is my petty peeve this week. I got. We wouldn't even see the child. Wouldn't even see the child.

[Kia]

Yeah. Unreasonable.

[Jade]

A little bit. I'll take the responsibility for. They. The girl did say, we prefer you print the insurance. I didn't know I wouldn't be seen whatsoever. I wouldn't. I wouldn't be seen. So anyway, that's my petty peeve. Also on my period and really just fed up with everything, so.

[Kia]

Absolutely fair. I have a pretty peeve. That's. Mine is brief, but I also want to read one. We got a petty peeve. Submitted by pre.

[Jade]

Oh, are we doing a submission today?

[Kia]

Okay, yeah, we got one. I, you know, I'll just go ahead and read this since we have one. Right.

[Jade]

Do it.

[Kia]

Chef Jade and Dr. Kia. Well, Chef Jade with lots of beats and Dr. Kia with lots of days. So I just want to read that appropriately. Greetings from so sessed out. That is. Listen, initially I was going to make this in all caps, but I wanted to be a little civilized and write in my petty peeve. Petty, petty peeve. She said, my petty people are the parents who love their sons but raise their daughters. And when we, when we blossom into this worsthood, adulthood world, we, the daughters are left with yalls quote, pampered and pusillanimous.

[Jade]

Come through with the Ms. Beth vocabulary

[Kia]

in the lake of niggas. Please let that nigga cry, feel and cook Young. So we ain't stuck with a lopsided emotional microwave ninja in our flat headed bullet. She said please and very much thank you.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Kia]

But for those of you who do not know, pusillanimous is an adjective that means lacking courage, resolution or strength of mind.

[Jade]

Oh, that's a way of saying a shiftless.

[Kia]

It is used to describe someone who is cowardly, timid or afraid to take risks. So it's also a very. It is. Yeah. Yeah. This is what that means. This is another one. Assness is what I hear. Yeah, very much.

[Jade]

I also hate that the vagina is attributed to pusillanimous.

[Kia]

No, but this is pusillanimous.

[Jade]

You're right. I'm doing.

[Kia]

Thank you. So sessed out for sending that.

[Jade]

Thank you. So look, Psylamidus is what you all are as an entity.

[Kia]

Nypd.

[Jade]

I fucking hate them. You should have never taught me that word.

[Kia]

No, no. But we can thank. So sussed out for that.

[Jade]

Thank you for hitting so much.

[Kia]

I very quickly would just like to add my petty peeve. I had just got off of a red eye flight from Portland, Oregon and on a red eye flight, which quite literally means that we are flying overnight. The two people in front of me, both of, both of them had their overhead lights on. I don't know if they were reading. I don't know what they were doing. But I was like, sir and madam, it is quite literally 3am and there are those of us who are just try. Even if we're not fully sleeping, we just want to rest. What is wrong with you?

[Jade]

And I know it's your.

[Kia]

What is wrong with you?

[Jade]

It's your right to turn your light on. And also it's inconsiderate when you are the only two lights on a full plane at 3 o' clock in the morning.

[Kia]

Like read the room. The whole plane is dark. And I mean, I understand. Listen, if you want to read your book. Okay, okay. Even if you were to have the flashlight on your phone, it would be less. But like this light, like it is illuminating the whole section of the planet

[Jade]

where we all are. No, I know exactly how that, how that goes. That's like the one person who decides to keep their window thing up the whole time. Like close them.

[Kia]

Like is there not a sense of collectivism in you at all that says it's clear that other people on the plane are trying to rest. You know, since that. Since it is quite literally 4am wow. Wow.

[Jade]

I have to ask because. I know.

[Kia]

Yeah, you know. You know exactly. You know exactly.

[Jade]

Peach you know, Exactly.

[Kia]

It's like.

[Jade]

Yeah, I know, I know.

[Kia]

You are so heavily vested in this Judy Blume ass book. You gotta read it right now. Yeah.

[Jade]

Are you there, God?

[Kia]

It's me, Catherine. Yeah. This is so very much important to you right now. Okay, copy.

[Jade]

I bet you nothing they're reading is. I bet you the romance novels you were talking about earlier, that's what they was. They was reading about a. With centaur legs and a pig snout and a big horse dick. That's what they were reading about. Right. And a fell in love with her wheat hair and nothing worth a 4:00am

[Kia]

I promise, worth a 4:00am life. Nothing worth nothing worth a 4:00am life. So it's just like, Come on. Like you don't ever read the room and just look around and say, wow, everyone else is. I mean, at least. I mean, whether or not they don't give a.

[Jade]

Though, they don't give.

[Kia]

No, they don't. And that's just what it is. But thank y' all for listening to yet another episode of Getting Grown. We love y' all so much. A big thanks to Dr. Anita for coming and hanging out with us.

[Jade]

I'm still processing all her.

[Kia]

I'm still like. I feel like, oh, so good, sister. For those who have unpackaged. Yeah. For those of you who have not, listen. The garden within. Dr. Anita's book. I purchased this book some time ago and it is something that I continue to go back to because it all. It's just very useful in terms of giving us some healthy language, vocabulary tools, strategies for sort of reconnecting with our emotions in healthy ways. And so I. I implore you to pick up the Garden Within. We'll have links in the description box. Shout out to Dr. Nina. We'll have to have you back really soon.

[Jade]

Yes. Must we? Must we must. Yeah. Make sure you all check it out in the description box. Make sure you send all of your emails, whether it be your honesty box questions, your petty peeves. No more graduation announcements for the C song. So that was. That was. Why would I do that? That was really an asshole thing to do.

[Kia]

No, it's okay.

[Jade]

What's wrong with me? Yeah, it's all right. No more graduation announcement for this for right now. You know, the season is wrapping for us, but we will be very excited when it comes back around as it is our favorite, favorite time of year. We do want to say thank you to everybody who has sent announcements. Absolutely. Over this graduation season. It has been just really an honor and a pleasure and a joy to read you all's accomplishments, your loved ones accomplishments, and be able to partake in those celebrations even if just a little bit. And so we are so grateful for you all. Make sure you are drinking your water. Yeah, some of y' all are out here looking like beef jerky and that will help. You gotta hydrate from the inside out. Can't fix that hate. But you can fix your hydration. You want to make sure that you are minding your business.

[Kia]

Very important.

[Jade]

Super super important as they continue to not mind their business in this nasty world. And lastly, you want to moisturize those extremities. You know what I'm saying? We in the thick of summer, critical eczema still exists. And that is all because your black will crack if it's dry, correct?

[Kia]

Bye toodaloo.

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