D (4:40)

Thanks, Ryman. Yeah, it is an amazing meeting and coincidence how Ryman and I met. As Ryman was saying, this is a very unique project that we're involved in in Brunei. So it's essentially a quasi government, private sector organization which is going through change. And as part of that change, there is a group of people that are being trained to be providing career guidance, career coaching and career counseling to a large pool. I mean, we're talking over a thousand people and a lot of these, the people getting trained hadn't had experience and that was how we came in. So my PhD is in the development of this model called Future Selves, which I did in the 90s. And it's part of that and it's been an evolving piece of work. And this is where the GTD framework comes in. So part of what we've discovered is, or we discovered a long time ago, was that while we could identify career options for people, we had a framework that built those into goals. There's this missing piece between goals and behavior. And psychology has really cottoned onto this. There's a lot more of a focus now on methodologies that are behavioral based. We talk about behavioral activation, which has been around for a long time. You look at things like, for example, act, the third wave methodologies. A lot of those have this behavioral component. But in terms of how to ensure that behaviors happen, it's a little bit more looser. I came across the GTD framework. I don't know, it must have been, you know, four or five years ago as I was looking for something that was this, this interplay between goals and behaviors where a counselor could take, had a. Had a very clear framework which they could work with their client to ensure that they focused on the behaviors on the next actions. And that is what we incorporated into the future Selves program. And so as part of this whole Future Selves program, 90% of it is all around moving people from a place.

E (7:27)

Of.

D (7:29)

Pre contemplation and wondering what they're going to do into being able to then continually stay active on the job search. Because on the job search, of course, you can have long periods where you don't have the section. And as part of that, once they've established their goals, once they've put that into a framework, this is where we include the GTD framework to say, let's start to have those brain dumps each week. Let's start to really get all of those behaviors in there each week so that your career coach, your career counselor can then use this to monitor behavior. And I can get it. We'll get into that a little bit more later on in terms of how that works. But that essentially was how Ryman and I then connected. So Ryman came in as a coach, obviously has this great depth of knowledge in gtd. I mean, we've essentially got this, you know, these couple of lines and when people say we were training and it was like, you know, here's what to do in terms of having these, these weekly brain dumps. And then it flipped because then Ryan was then adding another layer to this whole program and it was just absolutely fantastic. And so now the whole two have been fully integrated. And I think that the more that Ryman and I talk and he was able to give me the depth of knowledge in GTD and also take the GTD the framework, and then align it to the goals that we have, both in terms of the future Selves framework, But more so much broader than that, the general methodologies around counseling and psychotherapy. This alignment has got us Driving in a whole different direction. And I think it's really exciting for both sides of the fence, both the GTD side as well as psychologists. So, yeah, that's my synopsis.

C (9:40)

And in truth, right, what I was excited about was Paul has this framework that connects with people, that helps people to become somebody new in career counseling itself. And that's where the career coaches come into play. But there was that missing gap at the end that says that how do we effectively move into action itself? How do we actually convert whatever.

B (10:08)

The.

C (10:08)

Things that, the goals that we want to actually do to actions itself? And this was exciting for me. I said, paul, I think I can do this and I think I can actually help you with this. And in the process itself, we share information across, we take a look at how we want to actually train the coaches itself to, to be able to actually hand hold, quote, unquote, handhold their clients into action, to become accountable for their actions week on week. And this is something interesting. So Paul, what's your take on that? Taking accountability 100%.

D (10:44)

I think that's a real powerful part of it. If you are providing career counseling, sometimes you have your client is resistant to some of that behavioral component and they can come back next week and they haven't done those behaviors. And part of that is the problem of the counsellor, the problem of the career coach, the problem of the psychologist, because it's left too broad. That behavioral component is left too broad. You will leave the session with some homework, with some broad goals that they have to try to achieve and some behaviors around that, but nothing to the level of detail where GTD goes. And no framework where a psychologist can say, well, here's what I want you to be doing each week, here's what I want to see in your calendar, and then I want you to be accountable for that. And this is where I see this huge growth for gtd because I think that is a massive opening. I wouldn't say it's unfair to say it's a gap in psychotherapy, but I think that these detailed frameworks around behaviors, We don't have as many methodologies coming to the table. And I think GTD is a very powerful methodology. And while it's being used for productivity and those types of gains, and that's where it is, where it's been based, the parallels with what we do in psychotherapy is very, very similar. So for example, if I take something like act, it's very values based, it's around what are your towards and away moves, you know, to Talk about the Russ Harris sort of model and those moves. That's very similar to gtd, which starts from that whole values base. And then looking at how does your calendar rely, how does it relate back to that and the fact that Ryman could take his knowledge and his training and literally, we literally created another module where it was like, okay, Ryman, you're going to run this module for all of these career coaches. And I think it was one of the most successful parts of the, of the program and I think that, that I look at that and I think, wow, there is just this massive, massive space. And I use this now all the time. And my work, my one on one work outside of just career counseling, just, just my, just my general work as a psychologist where I'm ensuring that once we've established those goals, we move it into this, into this framework where people are getting far more micro and they're going through a series of steps and stages on that Sunday, on that, on that weekly review. And then as Raimond said, there is this accountability and that makes it great obviously for the client, but it also makes it good for the coach, psychologist, counsellor, because of course they can then see that and then they can go through it. And just on this whole accountability piece, one of the things that often happens is that a client will come to you and they'll say, oh, I didn't know this was going to come up.

E (14:14)

And I didn't know this was going.

D (14:15)

To come up and I didn't know this was going to come up. And normally that would be like, oh yes, fair call. Whereas with the weekly dump and the trigger which Ryman gave me, that trigger list, that's so fantastic because again, you put the onus back on to the client where you say, well, here's your trigger list, great, you've identified that these things came up, we can learn from that. And now that excuse has gone out of the, out of the way and you ensure that they're continually making those towards moves based upon their values, based upon what they're wanting to do.

C (14:55)

Absolutely, absolutely. And it actually makes the coaching exercise more fulfilling in that sense. So what I see and what I hear from and what I've observed from the coaches that we had, Paul, was that they had a more, they were more connected with their coaches itself week on week, instead of allowing just their coaches or their clients to actually think of a next action itself, they are there to actually guide them and they've got this simple yet not simpler framework that they've got with them to Actually guide them, say, what's your next action and what do you plan to do next? Where are you going next week itself? And it just puts everything into place itself from the thought process earlier on and then bringing people into that growth mindset and setting people up to want to actually become somebody new or go to a new career and then moving to action, taking each and every one of those goals that they have, whether the distal or proximal goals, and linking it to one action at a time and making it all work. And in the process itself, people, the coaches will love that because they actually see progress week on week. It's no longer sort of like a vague, ambiguous sort of what's the plan next week. It was more of an action oriented thing to actually do say have you done it? And on top of that, the second thing that I got from them, this is one of the feedback that I got was they said week on week they knew what was expected of them next week. So that's even more, that's even better than asking them say what's your plan and what have you done last week? It's like setting them up for success week on week. That's what I thought.

D (16:46)

Yeah, agreed. And those catchy phrases like what is your next action? Are very powerful from a psychological perspective. Often it's much harder to control your thoughts and your feelings than it is to control your behaviors. If I say to you I want you to feel a certain way, that's much harder than I want you to act in a certain way. I want you to do something. And when you're doing, in the process of doing, you get some of the right connections going in terms of the emotional responses that you want. One of the things that we're wanting to do is continually work people to, as I was saying, these towards moves taking more of a CBT approach. We want that whole sort of behavioral activation. We want them to be engaging so that they're not involved in experiential avoidance where they are avoiding those situations. So if they put them into their calendar each week, just as you said, they can then have a nice process controlled by them where they're making steps each, each time. And if we bring this back to the employment question, when people go through a period of unemployment and they go through a long period of unemployment, what drops off is those behaviors, you know, they stop getting up at a certain time. They stop, you know, because they naturally. Which is understandable because they've sent out so many CVs and it hasn't worked. They've done all these things, but we know that keeping them active and not just on. And this was. This is obviously the big thing with the Future Selves program. It's not just about careers. We recognize that career guidance in a welfare context is about keeping people well. And so they're working on multiple selves. They're working on their career self. They're working on their, you know, their lifestyle, the character that they want, the person that they want. And so there's so much that they could put down in their plan from a GTD perspective in terms of what they were going to do on a daily basis. Now that keeping people active is crucial to success. So I think GTD has huge. Has huge potential in terms of the impact that it can make within psychology, primarily because it fits like a glove to so many methodologies. You know, so I've talked about today, ACT and cbt, and I've talked about how we use it in terms of, you know, the Future Selves program. You could pick any number of different approaches, and they have this goal component to them. They will have this behavioral component to them. And GTD provides the level of depth that's required to make that work.

C (19:55)

Yeah, I think that's something also. And I remember actually asking you this question, and it is something that I experience as myself as well. And also I've seen this in many of the people that has done gtd. Even the coaches that we've got, every time they actually complete something, they have this. They feel happier or they feel satisfied with things itself. And that's by identifying the next action and also actually completing at the end itself. How do you explain that? I mean, that feeling of winning week on week is actually building people's confidence. How do you explain that in the psychology?

D (20:38)

Yeah, it's a great point.

E (20:39)

And this ties into this dopaminergic system that we've got, this neuromodulator, you know, dopamine that we all know about.

D (20:50)

And I think a lot of people.

E (20:51)

Think that dopamine is sort of what happens when we hit the goal, but dopamine is driving us towards that goal.

D (20:59)

And, you know, we have our basic.

E (21:02)

Goals in terms of food and other things, but we also, as human beings, we create goals for ourselves, and it's the creation of those goals and then the movement towards those goals and that drive a lot of this dopaminergic system. That's why goals are so important. And GTD then sets these wins along the way because you're essentially getting a dopamine hit every time you're making a step closer towards it.

D (21:32)

And I love hearing you use the.

E (21:33)

Language like proximal and distal goals and all that sort of thing.

D (21:36)

And so we have these long term.

E (21:39)

Goals and we have these shorter term goals and then we have these behaviors along the way.

D (21:43)

And what GTD does is it's giving you these wins at each point. And again, this is where this tie between psychology and GTD becomes so powerful because I can explain it in terms of all of that psyche stuff, but at the end of the day it's what works for a client. And what works for a client is being able to put these tasks down each day, know that they're going, this is what they're going to be doing and, and then getting these hits now that keeps them, that keeps them well and that keeps them in the frame, you know, to keep going. And I think that's, that's one of the powerful things with it and that's why it's such a, it's a, it's a key component of good psychotherapy and I think that it provides a very nice framework. And of course there's all the other tools that come with gtd, which I.

E (22:37)

Think is great as well.

C (22:38)

Yeah, so brilliant. I like that. Every time you actually share that with me, it gives me an understanding of why I'm actually feeling happy and happier once. Every time I actually finish a job or a next action itself. And it's not just me, actually, a lot more people are actually feeling that too. And I'm glad that we have actually introduced this to the coaches in Brunei. So John, just to share with you what we did with GTD in Brunei, apart from Paul introducing the Future Self framework, which is a bigger part of the whole project itself. The last part itself was a short model that we inserted almost impromptu in terms of GTD itself, it was more of a deeper overview of GTD to the coaches. It's not the full cost, but a deeper overview of gtd. So something that would spark their interest because I think over the years they've got their own way of doing things, they've got their own way of moving to action, but not in the way that we believe GTD would be able to help them. So I helped connect Future Self framework with GTD at the end and lock it in and introduce GTD as the key methodology of ensuring follow through and follow ups for the coaches and their clients. So I shared also with them a simple one page organizing template. It's a single one page template that is so simple, yet not simpler than what it should be. This template actually happens to be. I came to this from one of my staff itself. He created this simple template for himself, which was a game changer. Every time I actually show this to a lot of my clients and the moment that I actually showed them to the coaches itself, everything clicks. Yes, I know how to do this. It was very easy for them to actually connect how this whole thing works. And to wrap it all up, I created a theme that shared something like in the literal translation from Malay to English, no action, no happen. It's like saying that nothing will happen if you don't do any action itself. So the whole theme around that is that saying to people is that now you've got a plan. If you don't do any action, nothing will happen in life. So that part, that's the part where we help people to move into action. That's the part where the coaches help their coaches itself or their clients move into action and create that accountability that we talked about in reaching their goals. So, Paul, anything you want to add to that?

D (25:19)

Yeah, I think. Yeah, because as. I think many people won't know this maybe, or might not know, you know.

E (25:27)

Just how innovative I think this part of the world is. And, you know, this contract in Brunei was just. It's very unique where we've taken people.

D (25:43)

Who had no background in career counseling, and because they wanted internal. They wanted people who were being displaced internally to then, rather than. Rather than be displaced, to come over and become career coaches. So they went through a selection program, a training program, all as part of this process. It was. Was truly incredible. And I think the point that Raimond's making, which is very interesting, so now we've got these career coaches, so they've.

B (26:17)

Got.

D (26:19)

Some base knowledge. They're continuing to get training. There's webinars and all of these sorts of things. But remembering that they're not people that have come, they're not psychologists, and they're not pretending to be psychologists, they're fully focused on the career coaching and they have certain skills in their skill pack. And GTD fits super quick. So I think this is one of the most powerful things with it. And what Ryman was saying, how he was able to modify, fitted into this program, and when you look at it, you can see how GTD can be used by people who are well trained in psychology and different psychotherapies and apply it at that level, right down to somebody who has just started their new career as a career coach, right down To I think self help methodologies as well. So self directed methodologies. And I think GTD has a place to play there. You know, I can see where all of those self directed methodologies, you know, some of them are pop psychology, some have a little bit more substance, but there is this role for, okay, great, you've created a goal, you know what you want to go for, but how do you actually make it happen? And that's not a productivity question. This is a. It's a future selves question. It is, where do you want to go? And I think that GTD because exactly as Raymond said, because of its simplicity, but not too simple. It gets that it's the right mix of herbs and spices to really ensure that you actually get this behavioral change. And it keeps going. And I think that that is a. I mean, I look at it as a psychologist and I think, you guys, your journey's just started. Your actual impact that you're gonna make in the world, I think productivity ticked next phase is your impact, I think on psychology.

C (28:29)

Yeah, and what works with GTD is, as you mentioned before, was the rigor inside the process itself. The structure that helps people not having to actually think hard, but to just follow the process, in a sense, just walk through that process itself. Now, from a counseling approach, I'm talking about disregard. There are many people who really like GTD because of the structure that it has. It made life simple for them. It's almost like a checklist that they actually follow through. But at the same time, there are also people who does not like too much rigor in GTD that GTD introduces. How do you see that? And how would you introduce GTD to this group of people itself?

D (29:13)

Well, I think that's a really interesting.

E (29:15)

Question and we can answer that in relation to this project.

D (29:20)

So the amount of GTD in the.

E (29:22)

Future sales program, and I think just to put some perspective with the future sales program.

D (29:31)

The whole idea with this is that career is just one part of life. And too much career guidance is just focused too much on careers. And they need to recognize that careers fit inside a broad life. And people need to have this breadth of life and lots of things going on at the same time. And when you've got lots of things going on at the same time, you need a methodology to be able to ensure that all of the behaviors, the things that you're working on as a person, the goals that you've got are all tied together. You know, I remember reading in GTD what was, you know, David Allen's martial arts background and, you know, and how. And changes in his life and how he was able to bring all that together. And that's perfect in that regard. So coming back to your question, the beauty of it is its flexibility. So we have a one pager which basically says, here is a methodology that you guys really should start reading about. You should start getting into at a simple level. Just do that brain dump each week and start to put things through. You then take it that next level and you say, okay, here's some very simple. You don't go to the nth degree. Now, there'll be people that love that nth degree. That's fine. And that's the beauty of it, is that. And that's, I think, why counselors or people who start to pick this up from a psychology perspective, they need to know that depth. And we work like this as well. You know, we have. So again, if we take something like act, you've got fast act, you know, where you're having to do it relatively quickly. And I just got to try and remember their names. Kirk and what was it? Kirk.

C (31:19)

Kirk.

D (31:20)

Because I did write them down. Kirk Strongsl and Patricia Robinson who did that. They take those concepts and they bring it down to a very simple level. I think Russ Harris is like that as well. Same thing with gtd. You have this very, Very comprehensive model and you have this way of simplifying it. And that's what you did in this program. Like you were able to say, okay, here's what we need to add this next layer of depth. We don't necessarily need to go down here, but yeah, I think where GTD can go in terms of training psychologists and training counsellors is that they understand the depth and they understand the narrow. But you work with your clients, there'll be some clients who that works for.

E (32:12)

There'S others that don't.

C (32:14)

I think that's where. I think also think that where GTD works as well, it's their own system. And after the exercise itself. Right. I was actually looking at how people actually manage their work. And it so happens that they've got their own style and this is where it works extremely well for them. So beautiful. Thanks. Thank you, Paul. So what's next for Brunei? What's next for Brunei, in your view?

D (32:44)

Yeah, well, I think the next stage is broader than Brunei. I think it is starting to. I think this dialogue with GTD and psychology, I think will continue to grow. I think Brunei, as you know, obviously, it's an incredibly fascinating place. It's going through change, its economy is going through change and that, that forces a new way of thinking. And you know, Brunei is great because we get the opportunity to do these sorts of things. You know, these, a contract like this or this type of work would be much harder to get off the ground. I think in certain places there may not be a stronger appetite for it. But I think that this continual process of career change, lots of countries are going to go through and lots of individuals are going to go through. And if we don't start thinking about that in terms of a broader life, then I think we're going to leave a lot of people behind. And so we have to have these methodologies that allow people to go for longer term goals, go through that process of career change while working on other areas of their life and pick up these life skills like GTD that then that then help them to do that. So from my perspective, you know, it's a core part of the program, as you said, just sort of to close that loop. Yeah, gtd, GTD closes that loop in terms of so many psychological interventions because I think that it gives the power over to the, to the client to then take responsibility, as you said, accountability, take ownership. And it just, it improves the relationship between the psychotherapist and the client. There's just so much methodology and I'm really interested to see where it all goes.

C (34:53)

Same here, same here. And you are absolutely right to actually say this is a unique project. We have never seen something like this done in this scale itself. And that on its own lends to the fact that this is almost like a test bed for something much bigger than what we can actually offer in Brunei. So it transcends everything itself. So it makes sense. Before this, I knew GTD was how effective GTD is and GTD was, but this is the first time that I saw it being adopted this way in career counseling and bringing people to action in this way. And I had direct feedback and I can share with John and everyone else in the audience. They say that one of the feedback that I've got was that this particular coach who actually introduced the template to her coaches itself and it made it easier for her to actually keep them accountable week on week by defining the next action. And in return, the coaches themselves felt accomplished by having to actually have wins week on week as well. And they can see their progress and they know what's expected of them. Another coach felt that they implemented it themselves. They implemented themselves and it has changed them for life and became an advocate of gtd. I Think that this has changed the way they actually do their own coaching world. It helped them in their coaching world as well. The third one was also interesting in that one of the coaches actually said that it helped them. It helped him beat overwhelm and beat burnout as well, which was amazing too. So in the sense that when you actually adopt this, right. It's not just exactly on career counseling, it helps. It actually helps the coaches themselves, the counselors themselves, in approaching this. Because this whole discipline that you have, Paul, it's bringing positive wellness to people itself. And where that start. It starts with the coaches, with the counselors themselves. And absolutely brilliant. So I think I had a many happy occasions and many aha. Moments with you in the whole journey of that six to eight months as well. That's very encouraging.

D (37:14)

Yeah, it is, it is.

E (37:16)

It's been an incredible journey. And thank you so much for your time and your openness to it.

D (37:22)

You know, like, you know, you see.

E (37:23)

This in the future sales program. You see this one page. There's just so many ways that something like that could go. But it's your openness that then has just meant, you know, it just grows and just picking up on something you just said there.

D (37:36)

You know, the.

E (37:39)

One of the things that you. When you're working as a psychotherapist, one.

D (37:44)

Of the things that you want to do is you want your clients to be very realistic about what they can and can't achieve over that next week. And you want them to remain balanced across their various future selves. You know, all of the things that. All of the different domains of life that they'll. They're working on. And GTD does that. You know, GTD forces people to think about all of the different domains. What do I want to be doing as a husband? What do I want to be doing as a. As, you know, for my. For my children? What do I want to be doing for my career? What do I want to be doing for my own self development? The future sales framework is all around that. GTD is all around it. So it's a very nice fit, like a glove. And yeah, just, you know, once again, thank you for your openness and, you know, the seeing that and then just coming back and now just contributing in this way. It's added a lot to my thinking as well, and I really appreciate it.

C (38:45)

Yes. And John, just to share with you, right. One of the first sessions that I had with Paul, if you were there, you could see him beaming itself with all these questions and all these sparks and stars. That comes in his mind itself. It's literally exciting just to actually be able to speak at that level itself and at that level of understanding. And I learned a lot from the psychological side of things in terms of how GTD fits to how, if there's one word I could say is to activate the next stage of the progress forward as well.

A (39:25)

Yeah. This was just fascinating to hear, the granular practical application of GTD in a very specific field. And I have a hunch that if you guys got turned loose, you could talk in, widen that out into other parts of psychology and psychotherapy and all kinds of things like that. But you did a great job of sending me an outline, sticking to the outline and making this really easy for me. It was just a pleasure to hear you talk, both of you.

D (40:00)

Thank you. Thank you, John. Thank you for the opportunity.

A (40:03)

Sure thing.

E (40:04)

Yeah.

D (40:04)

And thank David for putting this all together. You know, I mean, he's made a contribution. I think he's made a contribution to the world that's bigger than he may realize.

C (40:14)

Yes, agreed. Very true.

A (40:18)

All right, well, thanks so much, guys. And who knows, maybe we'll have a follow up conversation. Well, you'll have a follow up conversation and I'll get to listen in again.

C (40:27)

Happy to do so.

D (40:28)

All right.

A (40:29)

It's a pleasure.

D (40:35)

Sam.