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- [00:11]
A
Hi everyone, this is John Forester and I'm here with David Allen. You all recognize David.
- [00:16]
B
David, hello.
- [00:18]
A
And where are you this time?
- [00:20]
B
I am where I live in Amsterdam. Yay.
- [00:24]
A
All right, I recognize your office in the background.
- [00:27]
B
Even.
- [00:28]
A
Even a little blurry.
- [00:29]
B
Blurred. Yeah.
- [00:31]
A
All right, and then let's move next to Ana Maria. Good morning.
- [00:35]
B
Where are you?
- [00:37]
C
Hey, John. Good morning. I'm here in my office as well in Colombia.
- [00:41]
A
Nice to see you again. And Ariane, tell us about you and where you are and I have so many good things to say about you. I would, it's better if you just.
- [00:55]
B
Well, John, first about yourself. First you have to say where you are.
- [00:58]
A
John, I'm in Denver, Colorado between two snowstorms. It's a lovely day today, but snow just melted. Snow coming again tomorrow.
- [01:09]
B
Winter must be beautiful.
- [01:12]
D
Yeah, yeah.
- [01:13]
A
And Ariane, you're the reason we're all here today. And before we get into the topic, tell us who you are, where you are and how. What a big presence you are for gtd. And David Allen Company, the GTD trainer
- [01:29]
D
for the Benelux and in the Netherlands for quite some years done a lot of training and Belgium growing. Luxembourg little less but a lot of increase in people interested in getting things done. Presently in Tilburg, which is very close to the Belgian border, I think about an hour's drive from Amsterdam. It is a small country so never too far away and have been done have been a GTD practitioner From I think 2008 or 9 on. So quite some years under the belt with GTD and increasingly understanding more of it and increasingly knowing how much more there is still to unpack. So still a student at it while training at the same time.
- [02:11]
A
Well, only somebody who's a master trainer and coach would still consider himself to be a student. It's a, it's a wonderful way to look at it. And let's give a shout out to your company. What's your company name?
- [02:25]
D
It's a Mir effect. We've been training GTD for Well close to 15 years now and have been seeing a lot of people going through the level one, level two, level three and very fortunate to have increasingly enough people that find their way to level two and three to really unpack more then the much needed basics and also dive into the higher horizons, seek for alignment between all the levels. So very happy with the growth there, not only in the number of people joining us but also in the depth that they're seeking for. And a lot of people also very vocal about the enthusiasm about getting Things done in the Netherlands, Very lively community. A lot of people that have gone through the certification process, more than 40 already. So very happy with the growth of that community and how everybody's participating in making knowledge workers do their work with less stress and more presence.
- [03:20]
A
Wonderful. Well said.
- [03:22]
B
And yeah, and I have to give a shout out to that Meritech and, you know, is our most successful licensee partner in terms of population and revenues. And also the Getting Things Done book translated into Dutch has been a bet seller here. Our publisher is thrilled. So, you know, it's a ripe place for gpd.
- [03:50]
A
Very, very active community. I've learned so much more about the geography of the Benelux region because whenever I. I'm talking to somebody, usually by email, I ask where they are and they'll tell me some large or small place that I've never heard of, and I look it up on the map. And so I've learned a lot about trains between various cities and the geography there. It's been a pleasure. All right, so, Ariane, we're here because you brought up a topic with Ana Maria. Anna Maria said, let's get together and record something with David about that. I'll just let you take off from here and we'll see where this leads.
- [04:30]
D
Yeah. Last couple of years, I think we've all seen a increase in the growth of books, methods, all kinds of searches for focus. How do I somehow steer my attention, my focus to what it deserves to be on? How do I somehow eliminate distractions? And I find that sometimes that search kind of reminds me, like the books on happiness, that kind of paradoxically, the more you look for it, the more you seem to push it away. And the more you accept that some things just are the way they are, the more the byproduct seems to be satisfaction and increased happiness. So some of these methods encourage you to be off the radar and to make yourself less visible. And in and of itself can be good advice. But it almost seems like there's some tension building up before the workday even has started to make sure that you're not found or less interrupted or that your technology is something of a hostile apparatus in your toolkit, rather than it being an extension of the things you can use to think better. And then I did some rereading of getting things done. I came across a quote I must have read earlier from David on interruptions. And it really resonated and that kind of how the book works so that you've read it at some point but didn't have the eyes to really see it. And then. And it was about interruptions being mismanaged inputs and then circling back to the concept of mind like water, that if you're appropriately engaged with your environment, you see stuff for what it is. Do not overreact or underreact. It made me think that a lot of these attention on focus paradoxically seem to overreact on potential interruptions. And it almost gives the feeling that interruptions shouldn't be there. You've planned a day and now someone calls you. Well, if you ask someone, what are the chances that someone will call you today? Well, chances are big. Well, if it happens, it feels like something that shouldn't happen because you hadn't planned it. So the interruptions, the tension, the advice to somehow be off the radar all seem in and of themselves useful. But also the main thing that I think could help is just the acceptance that there will be a surprise today and seeing it for what it is and reacting appropriately, rather than the tension already present at the start of a workday before something even has happened.
- [06:50]
A
I have a quick reference on that. If I thought of all of the interruptions that come to me as bad things happening, I wouldn't be here right now. Many years ago, I got an interruption in the middle of the day. A call came in from Katherine Allen and she said, come have dinner with David and me tonight. We want to talk to you about something. They offered me a job. If I treated that as a bad interruption, closed off from the world, didn't take the call, I could have missed that window. Now, likely they would have tried to interrupt me again a day or two later. But that was not a bad interruption. It was a well managed input because it led to much better things in my life. Yeah, but I do hear you about that sense that people look at interruptions as a bad thing instead of just
- [07:38]
B
something that's part of life in the training room. One of them, one of the, one of the big issues these days, as you, as you all know, is how many channels of inputs have opened up, especially in the digital world, whether It's Slack or OneNote or Teams or Google meetings or whatever. All these apps, and they're free, have opened up this huge world of things that people would tend to identify as interruptions or how do I deal with all of those inputs, you know, coming in, et cetera, et cetera. So it's a growing issue. It's not going away. Not going away. I guess for the few people that want the rice bowl in the cave, you know, in the Himalayas. Yeah, go ahead. You know, although probably even there, you'll be reached. Somebody's gonna go, you know, gonna go knock on the cave door or, or. Or something's going to happen. Yeah, anyway. Yeah. So we can add that into the discussion called the volume of things that could. That people could potentially be labeling as interruptions. And so it makes it even more probably challenging for people to accept and swallow what I said called interruptions. There are no interruptions. There are surprises. There are things that you didn't expect. But I do all kinds of things in the day that I didn't expect. Take a nap, not on my calendar, you know, you know, have a chat with somebody that just showed up, you know, at the front door or out the window. Those are not, you know, those aren't. Those aren't interruptions. They are new opportunities to engage with people and enrich my life in some. To some degree, you know, in some way, shape or form. But I understand that's probably a tough thing to swallow if you're, I don't know, 28, 38, 48, you know, and you're getting 300 emails a day. But then I go, well, guess how many thoughts do you have that interrupted yourself out of your own mind on the day? 300 emails is nothing compared to that, you know, so. Okay, so I'll stop for now. So what else, Daryan? Does that key off?
- [09:57]
C
I also, in terms of. I also wanted to react to your introduction because I think I found it very interesting when you were saying how many of the books that have been released in the past few years or what have. You seem to be having a focus on the external, like on removing yourself, finding that place, creating that space, making sure that, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Right. So that focus is on creating the conditions, but in the external. But the conditions need to be created first on the internal, because as we know, focus is a function of the mind. So even in a highly distracted space or environment, I can still be focused. And the opposite can be true. It can be the conditions are there and to David's point, and yet I can be focused because I'm being interrupted internally. So I think it's also important for people to understand that, yes, I think I'm not discounting the value of creating the conditions because I think we all do it one way or the other. Right. But that's not going to do the trick if that's what you're looking for. In terms of focus, I remember a while ago when it could not be the exact words, but something along the lines of, if you do gtd, you can focus. If you do gtd, you can relax. And the opposite is also through. Right. If you don't do gtd, you can focus. Or if you don't do gtd, you can relax. Or different words meaning with gtd, which at the end of the day is helping us with the internal. We can either hold that focus, engage, or we can just go and enjoy a relaxed walk, which is also a result of focus. So yesterday as I was talking to a coaching client and we're going like through the preliminary work and stuff like that, something related and perhaps may seem unrelated, but I think it's appropriate. He was talking to me about how impatient he is and how quickly he exasperates when he's in a conversation and his mind goes here and goes there and da da, da, da, da. So to make a long story short, I said, look, that's fine. You may be above average from the rest of the folks and you get easily bored, but also the noise that we have on our minds often contribute to our impatience because there's a part of us that, that it's now feeling that waste of time because there's so many of these other things. Because if on the other hand, you got the idea and you were telling me that you went into creative thinking, into maturing a thought, into resolving a problem. Yeah, you know, stepping there. But if you went to my daughter, my cat, or whatever, of the many other things, no wonder your, your, your, you're more easily. Your patient runs out more easily. So I was just trying to explain to him some of the benefits of getting things done because he was misunderstanding that getting things done was about getting things done. And as, as we know, and as David says, it's not about getting things done, it's about being appropriately engaged. So it was a huge reframing from. For him, which still comes down to being focused or being present. So I think that's also very important for people to make a note that regardless of your external environment, you have to control your internal environment or manage your internal environment.
- [13:30]
D
And the amplifier is turned to max. If you continuously feel a vague sense of, I shouldn't be here, should be doing something else, I don't know what I should be doing. Someone in the hallway just asked something and I didn't take note of it. And it's not very important, but I need somehow to follow up on. And in those volatile waters, the smallest impact can lead to waves. And the opposite, I think, is Also true that if you start a workday and feel a fake sense of tension and you do a mind sweep and see if you can verbalize what it exactly is and see it on paper rather than having bouncing around in your head and decide if that's actionable and if so, what the action would be, then I think you also train the awareness that sometimes my attention is pulled away by something. What is it? And if it's an inner source you're trying to verbalize it, it immediately gives you more grip and control. And even though it's something you need to take care of and maybe very big, you can then decide to either if you can't do anything about it now, to. For now, let it rest, because you have decided on an action. And I think that idea that before you dive into something, you kind of see, where am I? And if there's a vague sense of I'm not quite here yet, what is it? And if you can put your finger on it, it gives you so much more control. Even though in the outside world nothing has changed, your relation to it is completely different. And obviously a chef makes a mise en place, and I think David has shared those examples also, that if the bullets start flying, you have stuff where it needs to go, but nothing. I don't think a mise en place can somehow make good for a chef that's distracted or that's annoyed by some of the staff or. I mean, stuff in place helps, but seeing stuff for what they are, I think that's the real gem. And in a reflection, what is it that's somehow pulling and pushing on my attention? I think whether you're in a silent monastery or in a very busy coffee shop, I mean, that will make the difference. At least that is my experience. Even though that it does help to take care of technology. And a lot of technology is designed to pull you in. But if you're present doing something, really, even though it's nothing, there's no smartphone that could pull you in because you're not available for it. And if something pings, you may not even see it, given your attention completely on something else. And it also is very much more. A social head like John just shared being open for a phone call. And if it's not something that you want to deal with, wrapping it up in a minute and attending to it later, I mean, the disturbance is 1, 2 minutes, and then returning to whatever you were doing isn't such a big job. Then we said, why me? Why me? Why do they need to call me? Is there no one else on my team that can take care of this? I mean, then there are three problems for the price of one that's so big and so much. And if that is an issue, then write it down and see if there's anything you want to take care of in delegation or in teamwork or in the idea that your mind is pulled by something and you can't put your finger on it and to try to work through it. And then I can imagine that having a coaching client that's impatient, you feel there's so much going on, but you have no idea what it is. So if you can list it, if you can phrase, give words to it, it makes you so much more in control of all of these feelings. And I think that's a richness that really helps.
- [16:43]
B
To your point. Aryan too, if you're still using your mind as your office, your mind's a crappy office. And it wasn't designed to remember, remind, prioritize, or manage relationships between more than four things. New cognitive science data basically validates that. So the problem is if you've got some sort of an external system, a calendar, and maybe a kind of a funky to do list, you kind of don't trust it because you got a bigger bunch of stuff in your head. So you don't really trust either one. And so feeling that kind of subliminal, out of control, then to your point, any new thing coming in is magnified tremendously. I think you use the word as amplified. Yeah, good way to take. A good way to express it is, you know, goes up in spades. So the whole idea of being able to keep your house clean, you know, so that you're ready for surprise, you know, as all of you guys know, I usually use the example of there's one organization that never has interruptions for fires or crises, and that's the fire department, because that's what they're designed to do.
- [17:59]
A
Which reminds me that there's also an aspect of this that's where people don't seem to realize the threefold nature of works as there are going to be things coming at you that you didn't plan for that you, you can't shut yourself off from. So it's best to at least understand that one of the parts of the threefold nature of work accounts for that.
- [18:20]
D
Yeah.
- [18:21]
B
And you know, I don't know if I haven't read anything more current, but when I first even started in this game 30, 35, 40 years ago, you know, a common statistic was if you're planning more than 60% of your day, forget it, because 40% of your day is going to be a surprise. And that was, that was before email, that was before mobile phones, that was before any of this stuff. And if that was true, then imagine what percentage of your day is going to be unexpected now with this coming up. But if you're, for instance, in wall to wall meetings and 40% of your day is coming in that you can't deal with while you're in those meetings. Welcome to Gee, you need. When are you going to have catch up time? When are you going to have reflection time? When are you going to, you know, bring up the rear guard, you know, so that they don't shoot you in the back. So, you know, don't shoot the messenger. You know, for us folks, we're just reporting, you know, we got, you know, combined with the four of us, you know, we got multiple decades of, you know, hands on experience with people in this, in this world
- [19:32]
C
also. Ariane, you know, going back to this, I think what got us started here, regardless of what I can do or I'm able to do in order to change my external conditions to help me with this, you know, potential interruptions, or I'm already kind of second guessing I'm going to get them right based on what you were saying at the beginning or to help me with my focus and sort of, kind of let me go hide somewhere where no one can find me. If I'm taking my computer, I'm already in a lost game because now on my computer, and particularly if I have Internet access, I can on my own, you know, interrupt myself immensely and not get whatever I was supposed to get done done. Because opening one social media channel, that's the, you know, that's the end of my fate. So what's the option then for people to completely go offline into a cave to get whatever it is that they need to get done done to hold their focus for however long they need to hold it. That's assuming they have empty minds. That's assuming they're following the GTD best practices. Otherwise, as David said, you, your mind, it's the worst at interrupting you.
- [20:55]
B
Well, and another thing, you know, Ariane, thanks to your point about a lot of the new literature about focus, there's all kinds of statistics that are being quoted out there about how much time it takes to refocus once you get interrupted. I think 23 minutes. I read 23 minutes. Imagine being jumped by four people in a dark alley. You don't Expect having to wait 23 minutes to fight the second one. I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so. You need to be so present that you're now and then. Now and then.
- [21:30]
C
Now.
- [21:30]
B
Yeah. I don't have any. I don't take 23 minutes to stop doing something. I'll take a note, I'll throw in my entry, I'm back where I am. There's no, there's no 23 minutes to get back to what I was doing. This was silly.
- [21:45]
D
This was maybe time.
- [21:46]
B
It's not silly. It's probably true for most people that don't get. Yeah, don't get the idea.
- [21:55]
D
Yeah. I think in that kind of research it usually also is aimed at, and I think to John's point, the threefold nature of work, mainly to people whose main job is to do planned work. I think that the maker would be some kind of a characteristic for that, but more of the minder, the one who's like a management support person or someone as an IT support person, they have to switch, have to be available, they'd like to solve problems every now and again, dig into something, but also then have part of the attention on a potential incoming message where they can help. Someone like the project manager and manager probably will be doing a lot of planning, feedback, goal setting. So the aim at your deep focus for hours at an end. I think that would be difficult to imagine what kind of role that would be in this day and age. Even if you had it, then there would be so many other roles that wouldn't be in that kind of work for whom mainly adding value is helping others or coaching or giving feedback or being available at the right time. And somehow like a lot of people in those roles say, well, one day is hectic, the other is less, but it evens out throughout the week. I know how to take care of stuff and one day is hectic and I'll take attention. The only thing I need to do is just 10 minutes before leaving or wrapping up. I need to just do kind of a checkout and if I then do his mind sweep, check the calendar for tomorrow, I'm back on the board. Nothing crazy has happened. I've added value and the people at the end of this, I didn't do anything today. I think, well, what, what was the expectation of the expectation. And I think like you rightfully said, David, there's always been stuff that pops up and always been surprises. And we do this little thing in training where we say, how often do you get a surprise or something unplanned. Oh, a lot. Could you say every day? Yes. Well, then it's no longer a surprise. And then people kind of feel tricked in the sense of, oh, wait a minute, what. What did just happen? And then to your point, if your calendar is packed and there will be a surprise, I mean, I can predict the present. I mean, something will not go the way you want it to go. And you've introduced friction by yourself. So it's not strange that you feel a certain tension at the beginning of the day because you have several room to breathe. A good meeting that would benefit from 10 minutes longer. You can't do so because you need to be in another one. And if you're not physically in the other one, you're mentally already in the other one. So the. No room for spontaneity or just enjoying company or just saying, well, this is a good conversation. If we could just wrap it up, that would be so helpful.
- [24:25]
A
And then thought of it that way. But you're, you're in, in a way saying, if I'm bothered by something that's an interruption or a surprise, it's because I mislabeled it at the beginning of the day and told myself I'm. I'm not allowing any surprises.
- [24:39]
D
Yeah, the universe should follow my planning.
- [24:42]
A
Yeah, I called it a surprise when it isn't a surprise.
- [24:44]
B
It's.
- [24:45]
A
It's something I should be expecting, anticipating.
- [24:49]
C
And also, you guys may know the statistics, because I don't. But I'm going to speak for myself. I don't know, at least for myself, my own experience and some of the people that I work with and, or that I know that that one can hold focus for deep work for endless hours. I think there is four hours max.
- [25:10]
D
Okay. Yeah.
- [25:11]
C
That's a whole lot.
- [25:11]
B
That's the, that's the research of the guys doing the brain stuff. Four hours of concentrated thing and then your muscle just gets tired.
- [25:20]
C
Yeah, there you go.
- [25:22]
B
You got to go nap. You got to go. Or go snack, do something else.
- [25:25]
C
Exactly.
- [25:27]
B
Go dump, dump your junk mail or, you know.
- [25:30]
C
Exactly. I, I don't hold for. So to me, that's a strong athlete in terms of brain muscle to all. I'm not there yet. So I find myself raising that tension after X number, you know, of time with deep work or deep focus. And I myself interrupt myself. Like I go snack on emails or snack on Instagram or I look out and watch the birds. You know, I do something just to kind of relax that tension. Then I can go back in so it's like, come on, who are we kidding? You know what I mean? Like, it's. Who has that job? But maybe a professor somewhere. I have no idea. But even so. Yeah, the very strong ones can go for four hours.
- [26:13]
B
Well, that's how I keep my computer and all my systems so clean is because I use that to avoid deep work because I've done enough. Yeah. You know, you might as well be productive if you're going to waste time. Yeah, go, go. Just don't, you know, clean up your email. Just go clean up on your backlog. You know, actually that's kind of fun once you get this game.
- [26:40]
C
Yes.
- [26:41]
B
You know, it's actually kind of fun to do that. And it actually gives you, you know, sometimes that's a nice way to get your brain working again.
- [26:48]
D
Yeah.
- [26:49]
B
You know, without doing something really hard. But, you know, it's still constructive. You're still going to have to clean up that stuff at some point anyway.
- [26:57]
C
Right.
- [26:57]
B
So.
- [26:58]
C
And now that we work from home, I mean, for many of us, right, Even, you know, putting, putting a load in the washer, going and walk the dog and this is stuff that you're gonna have to do regardless. You might as well don't see it as, you know, like something on my way or an obstacle or interruption. It's just gonna be productive as, as you're giving your brain a pause from that deep focus. Be productive.
- [27:23]
D
Yeah. I really like the extended mind of the book. The author of a chapter called Rodin was wrong. And then she comments on the famous statue by Rodin the Thinker, where there's one guy crouched on his own thinking. And she makes the point with a lot of research that most of the best thinking is done externalizing. So having a prototype, having all kinds of stuff visual, using a whiteboard, moving so using space rather than being confined in one place with others. So verbalizing, getting criticism, being challenged, and those three with others moving and externalizing make it so much more dynamic and engaging. And she said, and I think that she has a valid point that on your own behind a desk, without any communications, that's so unnatural to think also because very abstract concepts in your mind are much difficult, much more difficult to manipulate than when you have words to them or, or a prototype or something to really physically work on or move or. And I think she really makes a valid point that this hours on end, working on your own are so much not productive. And if you have a chore in which that's required and if at all possible, you could do it with someone or outside or moving. I think you could. Then. Then four hours, maybe doable and maybe even fun, or four hours of looking at a screen or a book. I think that will be very challenging. Yeah.
- [28:48]
B
Well, I think an important point to make is that what matters is your intention. My intention is to relax because my brain's been working hard. That's different than my intention is to avoid something I ought to be doing. So it looks like the same thing. You're looking at the same. You know, you're looking at two. Two people doing what looks like the same activity. One of them may be doing it to relax, but with an intention of cleaning up, using my time productively. The other one is going, I gotta avoid that ugly email that I should write. I don't want to do that. And so your intentionality, I think, is something you can manage. In the fire department, they have an intentionality to make sure they deal with that stuff. That's part of their job. They're trained that way. They're. That's the reflex. And 95% of the alarms are false alarms. Talk about a reason to be frustrated. But they don't are frustrated. They go, there's an alarm. Okay, let's go do that.
- [29:55]
A
And after they come back, they spend a significant amount of time cleaning up, clearing up, resetting their equipment so that they're ready for the next quote. Surprise.
- [30:06]
B
Yeah.
- [30:07]
C
And also, David, I think there may be. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
- [30:10]
B
Yeah, I was just saying. So intentionality, I think, is critical to make sure that you manage what you might consider interruptions or surprises appropriately. Because, you know, people can use all kinds of things as excuses for not doing what they think they ought to be doing.
- [30:31]
C
No, thank you, John. I have nothing else to add. I'm just very grateful for this time and for having this opportunity to discuss. And I think hopefully it's going to be valuable to all listening as well.
- [30:42]
B
Yes. Great.
- [30:43]
D
Thank you.
- [30:43]
B
Thank you.
- [30:44]
D
All right. Thank you all. Thank you.
- [30:46]
C
Gracias.
- [30:50]
B
13th. Yeah, bye. Sat.