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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hi, everyone, this is John Forrester, and we're here for another skills lab, this time on project planning. And as usual, I'm here with my longtime friend, I can't tell you how many years now, and colleagues, Ana Maria Gonzalez. Hi, Ana Maria.
- [00:30]
B
Hey, Don. How are you?
- [00:31]
A
I'm very good. Don't ask me to remember when I first met you because it's been a few years ago. Back when I had darker hair.
- [00:40]
B
Oh, God, yeah. Let's not go there.
- [00:44]
A
Okay, we won't go there. So let's talk about project planning. Ana Maria is going to run the slide deck. We're going to look at the various angles on how to plan about projects, including a bit about the natural planning model. And of course, anything that you all have to bring up. Where you say, this is my thorny, difficult, can't get my head and hands wrapped around a project. Can you help me move this forward or decide how to look at it? That's all available here. So we've got some structure here, and we would love to have your participation, your questions, your answers as well. So here we go.
- [01:30]
B
Thank you. John, did we say it's 90 minutes? I can remember. I know you and I spoke about it.
- [01:36]
A
You and I spoke about it before we officially started. But yes, we are scheduled for 90 minutes. We don't have to use all of that time, but we wanted to give plenty of time for you, your participation here, too.
- [01:50]
B
Great, thank you. So when we were looking at delivering or sharing with you this topic on project planning, actually I had a bit of a. How should we say this? Like, I was a bit reluctant, let's say, because I was like, well, we don't really have a module in GTD or a chapter in the book or anything where we are known as the project planning experts kind of thing. Why are we doing project planning, John, and why are we presenting it this way? As you probably know me by now, I tend to question lots of things and I like to be very GTD clean, for lack of a better word, in the good sense of the word, because I'm always very conscious about the legacy of getting things done and how we have this big responsibility at the David Allen Company, in this case, John and I, as we teach these webinars, to make sure we, if from years from today anyone is listening, it's within the GTD framework because it's easy sometimes to start to blur a line right when you move a little bit to the right or to the left. And then anything can seem like within the GTD framework. So in all that discussion, John kind of convinced me to do this, where basically he said, look there. People often have lots of questions around project planning. Do I need to project plan? How much do I need to do that, when do I do it, what is project planning, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that's the spirit where we're coming from. We're really coming from a place of understanding. Do I need to plan a project to begin with? And if so, how do I plan it? When do I plan it? What does planning means within the GTD framework? Because I'm sure there are lots of definitions out there and even solutions. How I want to approach today's session, along with dawn, is up until now, we've been looking a lot at getting the horizontal inventory in our lives under control, as in all the things that happen at any given location or throughout our day, etc. Now we're going to look at if and when I need to get my vertical inventory under control, how can I do that? Or what are some of the GTD best practices for getting, in this case, a project under control, or the same applies to a situation under control, or even the same applies to my mind under control if I need to do vertical thinking, which means kind of going from the top to the bottom, not necessarily across. So that's in a bit the purpose for today. So at the end of the day, if you were to ask me, how much planning do I need to do, or how much planning Ana Maria does for any given project or situation or whatever the case may be, I would say as much as I need to, to get it off my mind. So we will be taking that approach. What do you need to do to get that project or that situation or that whatever, off your mind? And it often requires that you use your mind to get it off your mind. So there obviously there will be some thinking required.
- [05:21]
A
Oh, no, you're going to make me think.
- [05:25]
B
And the thought approach would be a vertical approach, kind of going from the top to the bottom idea. And that's a lot of what I think is often understood as project planning kind of thinking with the end in mind and bringing it all the way to the beginning kind of thing, or vice versa even, can work as well. So I think that sort of helps you perhaps frame why we're here today and what we're doing. So hopefully this meets your expectations because that's kind of where we're coming from. So, first thing to go through in terms of a bit of housekeeping I think we're done with that. And of course, they're learning objectives, John, if you want to read them, because I'm good now. I remember people are listening, not always watching.
- [06:08]
A
Good for you.
- [06:10]
B
All right.
- [06:10]
A
Our learning objectives are the same as we have for all of these skills labs. They're fairly general, but we always like to include them. Test your knowledge on the GTD best practices. Deepen your understanding through practice scenarios and quizzes. Learn other approaches through group discussion. That's where it's going to be wonderful. If any of you have a project, you're willing to share and ask questions or give answers about how it's going with that project.
- [06:41]
B
And before we continue, I just want to take a quick poll. John, this is a bit unprepared, but it could just be by raise of hands, which I think I can see you guys. And I imagine you all know how to do the raise of hand. Or you can just type a Y for a yes or an N for a no. Are you familiar with the natural planning model taught in the Getting Things Done book? So you can just tell me yes or raise your hand if it's a yes or tell me no or not raise your hand.
- [07:13]
A
So far, everybody is. Is familiar with the natural planning model.
- [07:20]
B
Okay, good. Perfect. Yep, that helps. Thank you.
- [07:24]
A
Okay, that means this is a fairly. This group is, as usual, a savvy GTD group. They already are familiar with the deeper concepts of gtd.
- [07:39]
B
Okay, I want. I have more questions, but it's okay. I'll ask them later.
- [07:42]
A
Okay,
- [07:45]
B
so what is project planning? A, organizing every detail about a project before it starts. B, adding every project action to your next actions list. C, using the same planning model for every project. Or D, getting sufficient perspective and control to get projects off your mind and not. And not lose any potential useful ideas.
- [08:12]
A
Well, the answers are coming. Coming in very quickly, and it looks like everybody's getting it wrong with D. Yeah, no, I'm sorry, this was a fairly easy question for all of you, obviously, because you are. And somebody added an E. Mind like water. That's exactly what we're getting to. So everybody got D, which is. Is the. If we want to say correct. Correct answer.
- [08:44]
B
And all the above, of course, are not the right answer for this question. Unless, of course, you add, if needed or if. If applicable or if appropriate, because I have had folks that I've worked with, with appliance or already kind of, you know, GTD enthusiasts to a relatively advanced level. And in some cases they do use the same planning model for each and every one of their projects. What's not good, which I've also seen, is when we kind of make that the rule without it applying. I think I met someone years ago. I was doing a certification. And of course, the folks that qualify for a certification have already been using gtd, have read the book. I mean, they've done a lot of the work work already. And he was very proud to show me his little template that he had done for every single project, in which basically he had the natural planning model. And he kind of followed that for every single project. You know, my hat went off to him because I go, wow, you do. Because I don't. Because it's not necessarily needed. But at the same time, if we really think about it, whether we externalize it in such a structured way as he did or not, it doesn't equal that we're not using the natural planning model. If we were to get into an argument, then the answer is correct. Using the natural planning model for each and every one of your projects, it's probably appropriate because whether you want to or not, you are doing it exactly.
- [10:29]
A
Your mind goes through that process unconsciously, even if you are not doing it consciously.
- [10:36]
B
Correct. It's just that you may not need that kind of rigorous structure to answer every one of the faces of the natural planning model for every single project. But if you were to error in one approach or the other, obviously that would be a safer approach than not planning, because that. How. That's how you can get yourself into trouble. But then the question is, what is project planning? Because if the answer is getting sufficient perspective and control to get projects off your mind, well, how. What does that look like? What does that mean? Right. So that I don't lose any potential useful ideas. And that's what we're going to be exploring throughout the day or through the. Throughout the session today. Great. Okay, so then, yes, we confirm what we just looked at. I'm going to read it for the listeners. Getting sufficient perspective and control to get projects off your mind and not lose any potential useful ideas is what we're using for today's session as our definition for project planning. And I want to highlight two aspects of this definition. Perspective and control. Sometimes what you need to get off your mind, it's just more perspective on a project or situation. As in, like, you know, why am I doing this to begin with? Right? That that may be enough to get it off your mind and you're done with it. Or what you may need is more control. You may need to kind of drill a little more into the operational aspect of that project or situation and kind of, you know, get just a bit of an organization around that project, kind of identify what are those, you know, milestones that are going to happen if and when, if you know that, and then come up with, you know, whatever next actions you need to come up with and you're good. And sometimes you need both. You know, it's a very complex project. You've never done it before, you're brand new at it and you really, in order to get, you know, the perspective and control to get it off your mind, you have to go as much as, as not only going higher, but also going lower in terms of understanding and having, having it off your mind. So it's important that it's not one or the other or both all the time. It depends really kind of is where the answer gets, gets down to. It depends on what we're talking about, right?
- [13:04]
A
And as you all know, if you start thinking about your project, some of them are quite simple. Some of them are. Well, let's start with the definition of a project. A project is any outcome that needs more than one action to achieve it or more than one sitting to achieve it. So you may have many, many projects and some of them are quite simple. They may have only two actions to achieve them, and you already know what the two actions are. Other projects could be complex and you don't know yet how many things will need to be done and what those actions are because they'll, they'll reveal themselves as it goes along. So we'd like to give you tools to handle any kind of project in that whole range.
- [13:55]
B
Okay, so given what we're talking about, how is this approach to project planning any different to what you're doing today? And you can just can take a moment to type your answers in the chat box.
- [14:24]
A
And it's fine to say I make up my project plan as I go along. I don't do any planning. I, I spend hours planning anything in between. We have one answer here that says I wing it far too often. I'm with you on that. I, I wing it quite a bit. And my improvement opportunity over the few years, last few years has been to do a little more on the side of the structured planning. Another one I'm suspecting. I don't handle the transition from brainstorming to structuring well. I do a little vision casting with what would wild success look like? Good when time affords it. I plan as I go along for more complex projects. I Do reverse planning if I have set milestones to achieve. So David, I think you answered your own question there from a few minutes ago. I'm less proactive than I could be in using the natural planning model. I do enough planning to get it off my mind, but then it falls off into the abyss. I use natural planning model for complex projects, but for simple personal projects, I go with outcome and the next actions. Sounds good. Taking enough time to plan and write it down. Anything you do to get it out of your mind, externalize it is, is a good thing,
- [16:01]
B
You know, and there are many projects or even within the same project moment during the lifetime of that project. Therefore, as much time as we would dedicate to planning it, we don't have the answer because we don't know the next until the previous is done. It's kind of, it begins to unravel as we go or reveals what comes next as we go. So, you know, the possibilities or the answers to this are infinite. And I agree with John, you know, I've winged it way too much too. So I think incorporating some more thoughtfulness to each and every one of my projects. More than structure, but because I guess if I say to myself structure, it's a bit confining. But if I become more thoughtful or more or more mindful or more insightful about my projects or as I'm doing my weekly review and checking through my projects, that's definitely going to be in my case, advantageous. You know, it's probably going to add value into my life as, as the opposite. Is that right? I mean, so I guess that's a good learning for me or a good takeaway.
- [17:20]
A
Well, we have a comment here that I wanted to get your take on on Maria. I have projects planned, but they're still, they still sit there for a long time. Every weekly review I confirm the next action, but it still doesn't move forward. And we've got a couple of me toos and somebody saying, yeah, we could all raise our hand on that. What do you have to say about when projects are clearly defined? You do your weekly review and yet the projects aren't making progress?
- [17:55]
B
Well, I would have to say why are they? I'm going to ask back. Do you have any idea why are you not checking off the next action on your list that let's say belong to that one project on that given week? Because what makes the project obviously move forward is the next action completion because we do next actions, as you all know, and we have projects. So then my question is what are you making more important, which is fine. It's not a judgmental question. It's more like let me become conscious question, right? What am I making more important? What am I prioritizing as more important than that action on my list? Which then brings me to this question, which is just because it's on your list and just because you review it and just because you have a next action that doesn't equal getting the action done, as you know. So my question is by, my answer is by asking you back a question, what are you aware of? Right?
- [19:06]
A
Because just because it's on your list doesn't mean it's the highest priority thing for you to work on this week.
- [19:14]
B
Doesn't have to be something of a higher priority. Can just could have shown up spontaneously see things go on your list so that they are off your mind. Things don't go on your list so that they get done. You may be getting done so many more other things or valuable things in comparison to what's on your list. That, that, that's fine. If you come to the next weekly review and you go, oh my God, what's going wrong here? I have the project, I have the natural planning model, I have the next action. This thing is not moving. Probably nothing's wrong.
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A
Yes. It doesn't have to answer.
- [19:49]
B
You have to answer that question.
- [19:51]
A
Yeah, you're not doing anything wrong. Just because you see a project show up more than once on your weekly review. It could be that life is happening in ways and things that are more important are showing up for you. The key thing is that you've got it off your mind. It's externalized, it's on a list somewhere outside your mind so that when life happens, you can pay attention to that.
- [20:19]
B
If the question is, let's say about around the GTD mechanics and I was coaching you potentially as an exercise of probing. Not necessarily because I think it's wrong, because who am I to say that to begin with, but as an exercise of probing. I may be checking with you. Is that next action that you have on your list, the very next physical visible activity, which is the definition of next action. Right. So we're looking at GTD mechanics right now. If the answer is then it isn't right. You have to be absolute. That's a trick to moving the project forward to be absolutely sure that what you have identified is the next action, not the next and a half next action. Because for that even small difference, there's a part of you that knows that and we just. It knows it's not possible. So of course you're going to find yourself again in the next weekly review, maybe frustrated, but it's because you're looking at a list of next actions that are not next actions yet. That's one possibility. Right. So that's a GTD mechanic. The other question I would be asking you is, is that your desired outcome? Is that when you get to check this project done, meaning that whatever project title you've identified, because sometimes, again, we don't even pause long enough or we're not thoughtful enough and we just want to keep on moving and we end up writing a project title that isn't in terms of the. Think about it as the carrot at the end of the race. Right. You are like those dogs. Whatever. I think people understand what I'm trying to say. Right?
- [22:02]
A
Yeah.
- [22:03]
B
So think about. About that carrot at the end of the race. That's how you want to use your project titles. They have to be that clear, that strong, that descriptive of that end result that you keep on running. I mean, it's your motivator to keep on getting perhaps even past that finish line. Otherwise the mind is very bright and very sensitive and very quick and if it knows it isn't, is just gonna look over it and that's gonna affect, of course, your next action doing. So in terms of GTD mechanics, I will be checking with you. Is that your very very, you know, is that your end result? Is that your desired outcome? You get to check this project done. When what's true. So make sure you finish your thinking all the way to identify and not you're not either cutting yourself short from your finish line or perhaps in that effort of identifying your end result, you end up putting a project that it's not really what you agree to. You kind of added other pieces and components that don't belong to you. So it's tricky, but it's not obviously it's very doable because it's just a mechanic. So those will be GTD mechanics that I will be checking with you if that's. If that would be the case.
- [23:29]
A
I was just thinking about the Golden Gate Bridge. It goes from San Francisco across the San Francisco Bay to Sausalito. If somebody had said build, build a gorgeous bridge across the bay, that might not be specific enough because they could build the bridge halfway over or three quarters of the way over, and then people will be driving off the edge into the bay. The. The outcome needs to be the bridge has to get all the way across and not let the cars drop off. So
- [24:01]
B
in whatever positive terms you want to put that.
- [24:03]
A
Yes. And I'm about to post something here in the chat for you that's a link to the Tools and Templates section in the document library. If you scroll down in that section, you'll find a couple of PDFs that give you very specific verbs for your projects and actions that will help you get those very much more narrowly defined so that what done looks like and what the next action of doing looks like are more attractive to you on your lists.
- [24:40]
B
So I don't know what answers we've been getting based on the question for which I answer with a question. Did we get any kind of like, you know, like as in why are you not getting that next action done and what are you making more important or.
- [25:00]
A
Yes, the one I wanted to bring to your attention, Ana Maria, is about what about a very large project, in this case getting a PhD that may have lots of sub projects. What do you have to say about how much to go into detail on sub projects versus just the one larger outcome?
- [25:21]
B
Well, that's going to become very personalized and often there's not one answer. If we go again by just the pure definition of a project. Right. It's any multi step outcome that you will, that you will finish within a year, more or less. Right. So within 12 months. So how long would it take you to get the PhD? That would be one question.
- [25:45]
A
That's a good point. Because something like a degree that takes two or three years to get is more of a goal or a vision, not necessarily a project. But there could be projects you can do in a year to get toward that.
- [25:59]
B
Right. And not because you put getting PhD on your list. It means that it's an incorrect project title. Because here's another variable that you want to take into account when you're doing your weekly review. What do you want to be looking at? What's going to be that carrot that would keep on pulling you? What is that outcome that will continue to inspire you? What is that outcome that will continue to want you to move forward? Right. Because sometimes it could perfectly be getting the PhD, but sometimes that might be so far out, as John is saying, in terms of the time horizon, that it becomes a bit frustrated that every week I don't see much progress because it takes time. If you go no, I love seeing getting my PhD because I love seeing myself every week as a PhD graduate. That fills me up with energy and really it's a mental trick. It really helps my mind think of what's next Then I'm not the one to say that's wrong. Just because it's within a three year time frame and the project definition is within 12 months, more or less, I always like to say. But if on the other hand, you don't know, you know, that's just, it's tormenting me. It's frustrating. It's actually not. It's adding tensions into my life. It's not relaxing me. However you identify with that outcome, right? Then what is the outcome you want to be looking at monthly or I'm sorry, weekly. So you keep on moving forward or you keep on moving towards that goal or vision of getting my PhD and that maybe successfully complete year one of my PhD. I'm not going to put words in your mouth or kind of pretend I know what your project is, but that's the approach I typically take, number one, to identify the project. Then I think there was like a second question to your question in terms of sub projects and how, how much details I move into or not. Right? As many as you need to get it off your mind. What I wouldn't do, and that's a personal preference and it's often a GTD also best practices. What I, what we won't recommend or what I wouldn't recommend is adding all the sub projects as projects for many reasons. One, because they're not, you know, those are like the, the little carrots on your way to the big carrot. They're not really your end result, right? So you're, you're kind of demanding of yourself, unnecessary effort. Because for every one of those little ones you're going to have to have next actions to begin with. It may be appropriate, it may be, they may not. Because some of them may move on parallel, some of them may not. So you're just adding a layer of complexity that is unnecessary in my judgment. But also you are creating false inventories because now you may end up with a projects list of, I don't know, 75 projects. Because out of those, 7520 are sub projects to one. So it could well be a list of 55 projects instead of 75. And again, the mind is very quick. So you want to keep your system in such way that it's attracting you, not repelling you. I think we've used these terms in other sessions, right? You want to make sure your system is current, complete and consistent. It has the right number of items that you've agreed to, not stuff that you've made up or added unnecessarily in your intention of feeling in control. We tend it's easy to do that to over structure just to kind of feel in control because you can perfectly keep all those all these sub projects as part of your project plan and then within your weekly review. Of course, that's the appropriate time to look at your project plan and think through whatever the next action or next actions because there are sub projects in parallel that belong to this project that you need to now put into your next actions list. So maybe that was a very long answer, but no, no, no, I think
- [30:14]
A
I answered terrific answer. And one of the things that Ana Maria said in one of our previous skills lab that I want to bring to your attention because it it bears on what we're talking about now is what do you want to see during your weekly review? So back up from your weekly review and say what is it that I'll want to be looking at and reminded of during my weekly review that that will change how you look at your projects list and how you create projects and that sort of thing. If you think of your projects list as part of your weekly review support,
- [30:52]
B
correct SA.