Introducing: Worth It

Summary

Ghost of a Chance: Introducing "Worth It" Episode Release Date: May 16, 2025

In the premiere episode of "Worth It," a new podcast series from The Minnesota Star Tribune, hosts Nicole Norfleet and Erin Brown delve into a variety of topics that highlight the unique facets of life in Minnesota. From exploring the vibrant live theater scene to uncovering the costs of raising a child in the state, the episode offers listeners an engaging and informative journey through local culture and everyday challenges.

---

Exploring the Live Theater Scene in the Twin Cities

The episode kicks off with a deep dive into the thriving live theater community in Minneapolis and St. Paul. Theater critic Rohan Preston joins Nicole and Erin to shed light on a captivating new production titled "Whoa, Nelly. The Outlaw King of the Wild Middle West." This musical centers around Wiley, a scandalous cowgirl and detective whose adventurous life captivates audiences.

Rohan emphasizes the accessibility of local theater, highlighting the reasonable ticket prices compared to larger venues like Broadway. “Theater tickets here in the Twin Cities are very affordable,” Rohan explains at [16:08], noting that prices range from $30 to $74, with premium shows like Ann Juliet hitting higher marks. He praises the Rush ticket system, which allows theater enthusiasts to purchase discounted tickets close to showtime, ensuring that even those on a budget can enjoy high-quality performances.

Notable Quote:

Rohan Preston ([12:54]): "She kidnapped babies... She was a detective. A fake detective."

This segment not only promotes local productions but also underscores the importance of supporting the arts within the community.

---

The Ultimate Guide to Paddling in the Twin Cities

Next, the hosts transition to a more serene activity—paddling in Minnesota’s picturesque waterways. Greta Kahl, a reporter covering the built environment, shares her personal journey and the inspiration behind creating the "Ultimate Guide to Paddling in the Twin Cities." Greta recounts how kayaking became a therapeutic activity for her son, helping him regulate his emotions and grow into a "Zen" teenager [03:35].

Greta meticulously outlines 11 paddling routes suitable for various skill levels, distinguishing between easy and intermediate paths based on factors like current and accessibility. Her favorite route, from Hidden Falls to Harriet Island in St. Paul, offers a blend of natural beauty and urban views, providing paddlers with a unique perspective of the city skyline [07:07].

Tips for Beginners:

• Rentals: Utilize paddle share programs and local rentals to avoid the hassle of transporting your own equipment. “Bring sunscreen. I have gotten so burnt out there,” Greta advises [10:20].
• Safety: Always wear a life jacket and stay close to shore if you’re in a small craft. Beginners should consider joining guided paddles or taking advantage of instructional programs offered by the DNR [10:55].

Notable Quote:

Greta Kahl ([07:04]): "I love kayaking because you are right down on the water... it's really nice to be able to grab a kayak and go out there by yourself."

This segment serves as both an inspiration and a practical guide for Minnesotans looking to embrace the state’s natural beauty through paddling.

---

Salvage and Reuse: Reducing Waste in the Twin Cities

Nicole and Erin shift their focus to environmental sustainability, specifically the growing trend of salvaging and reusing materials in Minnesota. Chris Magen, a reporter from Hennepin County, discusses the burgeoning salvage industry, which includes over a dozen businesses in Minneapolis alone [19:34].

Chris explains that salvage involves repurposing items from demolished buildings, homes, and other facilities. Unlike traditional recycling, which breaks materials down to create new products, salvaging preserves the original materials for continued use. This approach not only reduces waste but also offers unique, often high-quality materials for homeowners and builders.

Key Highlights:

• Better Futures Minnesota: A standout salvage business that employs individuals recently released from incarceration, providing them with meaningful work opportunities [20:07].
• Restore by Habitat for Humanity: With locations in Minneapolis and Brooklyn Park, Restore offers a vast selection of salvaged items, including flooring, lighting fixtures, and built-ins from historic homes [21:03].

Notable Quote:

Chris Magen ([22:19]): "People who are rehabbing homes are looking for matching wood... it's easier to find and reuse it rather than try to buy new."

This discussion highlights the dual benefits of reducing environmental impact while supporting community members through employment opportunities.

---

The High Cost of Raising a Child in Minnesota

The final major segment addresses one of the most pressing issues for many families: the financial burden of raising children. Emma Nelson, an economy reporter and new mother, provides a candid analysis of childcare expenses in Minnesota [25:21].

Emma outlines that the average cost to raise a child from birth to 18 years old ranges between $200,000 and $300,000. However, these figures often exclude many hidden and unexpected costs, making the actual financial strain significantly higher [28:04]. Childcare is cited as the most substantial expense, with costs varying widely between metro and outstate regions.

Key Insights:

• Childcare Costs: High expenses necessitate difficult decisions for parents, such as relying on family support or altering work schedules to accommodate childcare needs [29:02].
• Childcare Industry Challenges: Emma highlights the disparity between the high costs incurred by parents and the low wages earned by childcare providers, many of whom earn less than $15 an hour [30:09].
• Policy Proposals: The episode touches on the Trump administration's proposal to provide $5,000 to mothers for each child, though Emma notes historical data suggests such incentives have limited effectiveness in increasing birth rates [26:59].

Notable Quote:

Emma Nelson ([26:32]): "It's really grounded in this idea that if birth rates don't go up soon, we're facing a really dire future, even an apocalyptic future."

This segment offers a sobering look at the economic challenges faced by families in Minnesota, emphasizing the need for systemic changes to support both parents and childcare providers.

---

Closing Thoughts and Community Highlights

Towards the end of the episode, Nicole and Erin reflect on personal milestones and the vibrant community spirit in Minnesota. Erin shares her transition from teaching at Hibben Community College to joining The Minnesota Star Tribune, celebrating her long career and new opportunities [34:43]. The hosts also express excitement about local sports, highlighting the contagious enthusiasm that sports events bring to the community [35:01].

---

Conclusion

"Introducing: Worth It" effectively sets the tone for the "Worth It" series by covering a broad spectrum of topics that resonate with Minnesota residents. From cultural engagements and outdoor activities to critical discussions on sustainability and parenting costs, the episode provides valuable insights and practical advice. Through engaging conversations and expert interviews, Nicole Norfleet and Erin Brown establish a compelling narrative that underscores the richness and complexity of life in Minnesota.

---

For more information on "Worth It," visit Minnesota Star Tribune's website.

Transcript

[Megan]

Hi, I'm Megan and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder. A show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcast.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Lemonade.

[Melissa]

Hi, Melissa here. I'm the producer and narrator of the podcast Ghost of a Chance. You're probably expecting another bonus episode here, and we are working on that. But actually, I've got something else for you here. Here at the Minnesota Star Tribune, we've just launched a brand new podcast. And since you are interested in Ghost of a Chance, I thought you might also be interested in this new show. It's called Worth It. It's hosted by editor Nicole Norfleet and columnist Erin Brown. Every Friday, they're joined by people who know Minnesota inside and out. And they reach into the spaces you might not know to share the stories worth your attention, the places worth a look, and the events worth your time and and money. In this episode that you're about to hear, Nicole and Erin explore the live theater scene in the Twin Cities. They talk about the spendy ticket prices and the ways to find a bargain seat at a great show. They also share an ultimate guide to paddling in the Twin Cities. And they tell you why you should get your new sink from an old library. Plus, they break down just how much it costs to raise a kid in Minnesota. Take a listen and if you want to hear more, search for and follow Worth it from the Minnesota Star Tribun. You can also click on the link in the show notes. Okay, enjoy.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Welcome to Worth it from the Minnesota Star Tribune. I'm Nicole Norfleet.

[Erin Brown]

And I'm Aaron Brown.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Today on the show, a new musical on the real life of a Minnesota bad girl. Your ultimate guide to paddling in the Twin Cities and why you should get your new sink from the library. Plus, how much does it cost to raise a kid in Minnesota?

[Erin Brown]

Too dang much. All the money there is. Open your wallet. How much you got? Maybe I'm feeling it. Cause I have three in college right now, I think.

[Nicole Norfleet]

So I'm still. I mean, the diapers and the wipes and the milk is still hitting me right now.

[Erin Brown]

Those are a lot, too. I can't say there's a big difference. But there's always something. And in between is band fundraisers.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Great, let's get into it.

[Erin Brown]

So, Nicole, I lived near a very lovely little lake. And it has just been a wonder because when my son was little, he had a lot of trouble, kind of. He was mad all the time. And he was five and he was just really a loud, angry little kid. And he started going outside every day and he wanted to go out on the water. And so what happened back then is we got him a kayak and he has paddled every non frozen day on the lake ever since. He's in college now.

[Nicole Norfleet]

That's wonderful.

[Erin Brown]

And it literally just helped him regulate. And he. He's now probably one of our most Zen children, one of the most Zen teenagers you ever. Yeah, resilient, doing great. And I can't help but think that the peace and quiet and comfort of paddling a beautiful, pristine little lake with the fish jumping and the birdies cheeping and chirping is a big part of it. Well, our reporters put together the ultimate guide to paddling in the Twin Cities metro. Greta Kahl covers the built environment. Between Greta, our colleague Jake Steinberg and others, they paddled 11 routes for this guide. Welcome, Greta. And just one question. Do did your arms hurt after all that paddling?

[Greta Kahl]

You know, cross country skiing is my winter sport, so I like to think.

[Nicole Norfleet]

It'S like a rest after she got those guns. She got those guns.

[Erin Brown]

So what was the inspiration for doing this guide?

[Greta Kahl]

Yeah, this actually started. I've had this idea for years because my husband and I got a canoe as our wedding gift.

[Erin Brown]

And that's a very Minnesota wedding gift.

[Greta Kahl]

Before we put the canoe fund on our wedding registry, I had been walking around our neighborhood a lot during the pandemic, and I saw a lot of canoes in people's backyards that looked very dirty and very unused. And I was like, we can get a canoe, but the rule is that we have to use it, and we can't just use it once a year or every other year to go up to the boundary waters. So we really started and we had a little bit more time at home during the pandemic. So we really started looking for paddles that were in our backyard that we could do. We at first called them happy hour paddles that we could just like, go do after work. And so that's how it got started. I was just looking for information about where to put in boats and stuff, and I found it really wasn't all in one place. And it Was kind of hard to find and put it all together. So it sor started as me trying to solve a problem in my own life. But I realized, you know, so many people have those sad boats, and I want them all to get out on the water more. So that's when I started. And I roped me wet. I roped in a lot of colleagues who luckily were down for the cause, so.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Well, that sounds super fun. And I know you guys separated the routes by easy versus intermediate. What's the difference?

[Greta Kahl]

Yeah, so if you look at our guide, you're gonna find the easy routes tend to be ones that don't have a current. So a lot of lakes. There's a couple chains of lakes in the Twin Cities met that kind of thing. There are also routes that tend to have rentals. Some of the intermediate ones do as well, but the easy ones tend to have more rentals and. And they're just more approachable, both from a logistics perspective and from a. I don't know how to deal with currents and it's my first time out paddling type of perspective, but very doable for somebody if you've never even been in a boat before.

[Nicole Norfleet]

And so this guide includes, like, 11 great places, and it would be a lot for us to get into each one. But if you want to see the full guide, you can go to Minnesota Starch and Beans website for the story. But, Greta, let me. As a paddler, what's your preference? Canoe, kayak, or paddle board?

[Greta Kahl]

I have to say that I love kayaking. And the reason I love kayaking is because you are right down on the water. And I think I just had some, like, formative experiences when I was young where you can really, like, kind of sneak up on wildlife and be really close to the wildlife. And I just think that's so cool. And that's not something you can always do, like in a canoe, because you're usually with another person. You have to have another person to go canoeing with you, unless you have a solo career canoe. So it's just really nice to be able to, like, grab a kayak and go out there by yourself. It feels like it doesn't take as much planning, and you're really just close to the water.

[Erin Brown]

Did your favorite place make the list, Greta?

[Greta Kahl]

Yeah. So I will preface this by saying I'm a river girl. I grew up in the St. Croix Valley, going on the St. Croix River a lot. I love St. Croix river, and so I really. I just love running water. I don't dislike lakes, but I Find paddling them a little boring sometimes. And so my Favorite is the St. Paul route that goes from Hidden Falls to Harriet Island. And reason I love that route is because when you start that route, you feel like you're not even in the city. It's just a beautiful, pretty, natural, serene area. You'll see people fishing and you'll see people at the Minnehaha Dog park with their dogs and stuff at the beginning of the route. But it's really serene and peaceful. There's a little detour you can take around pike island, which is beautiful as well. But then you start kind of getting glimpses of the industrial and working river as you get closer to downtown St. Paul. So you'll see like this cool swinging bridge and just really things that like, even as somebody who grew up in the Twin Cities, I don't think I've ever. I'd never seen those parts of the city from that angle, from the perspectives. Yeah, it just makes you really appreciate different parts of the city, I think. So I got a new appreciation for that. I also have seen beavers on that route, which is very cool, but it spits you out like right by the St. Paul skyline, which is so cool. At the end of your route, you get to see the skyline. You get to see all the big bridges in St. Paul. And I just think that's the coolest route.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Now do you have to be careful of traffic and barges? I feel like I would be a little worried for a first timer to go out there.

[Greta Kahl]

Yeah. So it's a lot like driving on a highway where you want to give people wide berth and make sure that.

[Nicole Norfleet]

You'Re not zipper merge or you zipper merge onto there.

[Greta Kahl]

Well, I've never had to zipper merge, but I'll let you know if I do. But you want to give. If you see like a barge or something, you want to stay away from it. You're always on the right given what way you're going, like on a highway. So yeah, you just got to follow those rules and make sure you're paying attention. Stay close to shore if you're, you know, in a small craft is a good rule of thumb.

[Erin Brown]

Greta, was there any hidden gems, like something that you were surprised to see make the list?

[Greta Kahl]

Yeah, totally. And I feel bad saying this as a St. Paul girl, but the Faelin chain of lakes is so cool, so beautiful.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Right.

[Greta Kahl]

It's just like really lovely. And I love running around Lake Phalan, but I'd really never thought about paddling on it, which is sad.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Me neither. Me neither. I normally will do a walk around there. We'll be there for an event. And I never thought, oh, yeah, I should get in a boat out there.

[Greta Kahl]

I also think it's just kind of an underappreciated gem overall. Like, the Min chain of lakes, which I also love, can be so busy. And Phelan is just kind of this peaceful oasis. It's like. It's sort of similar in some ways, but it's chiller, I would say. And the route that we have on that side of town really takes you through this, like, cool channel where you, like, you wouldn't know you were in St. Paul going through this, like, thin little channel. There's a tiny little portage, but it's like.

[Nicole Norfleet]

It's like one or two canoes.

[Greta Kahl]

Yeah, it's really. It's a great way to practice portaging because, like, you just can pick up your canoe and walk around for people.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Like, I didn't know what portaging was until I came to Minnesota. What is portaging?

[Greta Kahl]

Yeah, so portaging is when you have to. When you can't pass through something on the water. So you have to take your canoe out of the water and go around an obstacle, basically on foot and carry your canoe.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Any other advice for beginners? Say if they don't have a boat, what they should make sure they bring and what kind of things, if they should have a checklist.

[Greta Kahl]

Yeah, I think definitely. Check out the paddle share program and other rental programs. We have a pretty good list of the guide. So you don't need to have a boat. Some of those paddle rental programs are super easy where you don't have to. Like, if you have your own boat, sometimes you're lugging it kind of far. But in those situations, a lot of times the boats are right there, so you can just use them so you don't have to worry about that. Bring sunscreen. I have gotten so burnt out there. Even if you don't think it's that sunny, the water kind of seems to reflect the sun and. And it will get you. So that's my advice for newbies.

[Nicole Norfleet]

And you have to have a life jacket, right?

[Emma Nelson]

Yes.

[Greta Kahl]

You have to at least have one with you. But if you're new to it or you're not a good swimmer, it's definitely a good idea to wear it. There's also all kinds of programs that will help you learn to paddle if that's not something that you're comfortable with. The DNR has an I can paddle program that people can sign up for and I know. There are also a bunch of guided paddles around town that you could Google and find if you wanted to just kind of, you know, try it out before you make a commitment to go out by yourself.

[Nicole Norfleet]

And I would totally like to go out on these happy hour paddles with you. Let's go.

[Greta Kahl]

Let's get a group out. I love it. Yeah.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Awesome. Thanks so much again.

[Greta Kahl]

Thanks for having me.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm Hasan Minhaj, and I have been lying to you. I only pretended to be a comedian so I could trick important people into coming on my podcast. Hasan Minhaj doesn't know to ask them the tough questions that real journalists are way too afraid to ask. People like Senator Elizabeth Warren. Is America too dumb for democracy?

[Megan]

Outrageous.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Parenting expert Dr. Becky. How do you skip consequences without raising a psychopath?

[Greta Kahl]

That's a good question.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Listen to Hasan Minhaj. Doesn't know. From Lemonada Media, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Aaron, are you a theater guy? When was the last time you seen a show?

[Erin Brown]

The last time I saw a show was just this year. I saw a Patsy Cline tribute show here on the Iron Range. But I think the first time that I really fell in love with theater is when I quit the football team and joined the drama club my ninth grade year in school. And it was.

[Nicole Norfleet]

That sounds like a musical right there.

[Erin Brown]

It is a musical. Well, yeah. Not a very. I can't sing very well, but more of a. Yeah, a puppet show, maybe.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Well, our theater critic, Rohan Preston wrote about a new show at the History Theater that might make us all into theater converts. The main character is Wiley and scandalous cowgirl slash detective Minnesotan. Yee Haw. And. Hi, Rohan.

[Rohan Preston]

Hello.

[Nicole Norfleet]

The show is called Whoa, Nelly. The Outlaw King of the Wild Middle West. I love everything about it, by the way, especially the fact that she's called a king. Can you give us an idea of what's so special about this show?

[Rohan Preston]

Well, of course, we all know, like, Annie Oakley and Calamity Jane. Those are big figures on the frontier, okay? And they're female, and they're heroes and heroines, but we don't know her. Nellie King is pretty amazing, and she is one of her own. She was a badass who dressed as a man.

[Nicole Norfleet]

I see. I see.

[Rohan Preston]

She kidnapped babies.

[Nicole Norfleet]

What? Okay. All right. She went down.

[Rohan Preston]

She was a detective. A fake detective.

[Nicole Norfleet]

How can you be a fake detective?

[Rohan Preston]

Well, during that time, you didn't have to be licensed to be a detective. So you can say, I'm Nicole and I'm a detective.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Did she actually solve any Cases?

[Rohan Preston]

No, the detective was cover to commit crimes.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Anyway, the more I hear about this woman, the more I want to learn about her. And so I actually went into the archives, newspapers.com, you can find literally anything there. And I went back to a newspaper clip from the Duluth News Tribune from 1891. So I'm just gonna read a little bit of this. This is hilarious. Yesterday morning, about one o' clock, she stole softly out of her room, stole softly into another room, stole full suit of men's clothes, put them on, went down to Murray and Ruch's livery stable, stole softly in there, and finished up the night work by stealing two horses worth about $300, and then started towards the land of the Dakotas. Joe Bissette, the young lad who slept in the barn as a sentinel, she succeeded in winning over to her evil ways. And so Joe went with her on one of the steeds.

[Erin Brown]

Wow.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Doesn't she sound like a firecracker? Like, who is this?

[Erin Brown]

That's wild.

[Rohan Preston]

Wow.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Can you imagine?

[Rohan Preston]

That's wonderful. And by the way, she was married in Duluth, and one of her other things was she was. She married a lot.

[Nicole Norfleet]

She married a lot.

[Rohan Preston]

A whole lot.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Like, how many times?

[Rohan Preston]

Like, we don't know. We don't know. Like, literally, she'd be married now and then married later. And I mean, just like she was looking for love.

[Nicole Norfleet]

She was looking for love or a living.

[Erin Brown]

Or both, probably more. A living and description.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Can both be correct? Can both be the right answer? And literally, all the stories that I kind of scanned through, they always mentioned how much she likes to dress wearing pants, which I just thought was just a hilarious thing to mention, but it is.

[Rohan Preston]

And by the way, it was for men to dress as women and women to dress as men during that era. And also to your point, think of it, if you're a horse thief, you're not going to be riding an address.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Got it.

[Erin Brown]

It's practical.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Yeah, it's practical. Very practical. It sounds like a utilitarian. This is like a role model. Okay, well, tickets for one adult are between 30 and $74, depending on where you want to sit. That doesn't seem too bad of a price to me. How does that compare to others?

[Rohan Preston]

That's a great price. And theater, I think, is very affordable when you think of it. Cause it's bespoke. You're in there with the other people who are giving you their craft and giving you the live experience. Almost like being in a show. Katy Perry was here recently. Being in a show. Bad Experience.

[Nicole Norfleet]

I'm not saying that. Katie, can you invite me, please?

[Rohan Preston]

But you know, if you. Those take are gonna be hundreds and hundreds. And if you think of a Taylor Swift, those are, you know, thousands as well. So if you're going to a theater show and it's. And the gift of a theater show is the live performance, the magic that.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Can happen, no show is exactly the same. But I know there's all these big Broadway shows that are coming to town. It's great to be part of a theater city where we get these wonderful shows. I'm not the biggest jukebox musical fan, but I know Ann Juliet is. It was big on Broadway. Can you tell us a little bit about prices for that show?

[Rohan Preston]

It's fantastic. And that's where the prices go crazy because this particular one is here now the top price is. It is pretty high at 400.

[Nicole Norfleet]

What were we talking about here?

[Rohan Preston]

418.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Woo. That's a car payment. Plus maybe my cell phone, something else.

[Rohan Preston]

It is, but the bottom prices are less as well. And you could get in there 65.

[Nicole Norfleet]

To 418 for $65. Where am I sitting? Am I standing?

[Rohan Preston]

Can I sit down or you're skiing in the Alps.

[Nicole Norfleet]

I'm up there. I'm high, I'm up.

[Rohan Preston]

You're high up.

[Nicole Norfleet]

But you're there for. I mean, obviously you want to see the stage and I get that. But you're there also for the experience and just being the energy, right?

[Rohan Preston]

Absolutely. And will have Rush tickets and they'll have discounted tickets. So, you know, you may pay anywhere from like, I don't know, 50, $60 a ticket to 100 or more.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Like, are there ways to kind of get. Obviously you mentioned Rush tickets. Could you explain a little bit about what that is?

[Rohan Preston]

Yes. So Rush tickets are. Guthrie has them, for example, where you go like two hours before a show or you line up and. And you buy a ticket. They have discounted tickets to make sure that they can fill up the house. And the Guthrie, it's $25, so you can see their best work. Of course, it's a risk because the show may be sold out and you may want to buy a guaranteed seat. And that's how people do it in New York as well. Shows at Broadway shows and so on and so forth. But to your point, tickets can be expensive. I think the theater tickets here in the Twin Cities are very comp. Reasonable. And if you go see a show for 20, $25, that's barely your Starbucks and a little muffin.

[Nicole Norfleet]

If you Want more information about shows in Twin Cities theaters, check out Rohan stories on the Minnesota Star Tribune website. Thank you, Rohan. This has been so much fun. We really appreciate having you here.

[Rohan Preston]

It's been a blast. Thank you. And thank you, Aaron.

[Erin Brown]

Yeah, thanks a lot. This is great.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Well, a lot of people all over the state are trying to cut down on the amount of waste that goes into landfills and incinerators. Imagine getting your new lighting fixture from a schoolhouse or having a cabinet or bench made of wood from a tree cut down your neighborhood. You can get all that at a salvage shop. Chris Magen, our Hennepin county reporter, is here to tell us more about folks trying to make salvaging bigger than it already is. Hey, Chris.

[Chris Magen]

Hey. How's it going?

[Nicole Norfleet]

So what exactly is salvage?

[Chris Magen]

Basically just like taking an item made for a particular purpose, like lighting fixture or a bathroom fixture, and reusing it. So it's essentially like reusing something. Typically when we think of recycling, we think of like taking something and turning it into something new. Right. So you have like a plastic jug and it winds up as like deck material or something like that. More and more, what we're seeing is a number of organizations and companies are basically going into these buildings, houses, facilities, and taking all the usual materials out and reselling them. And it's really become a pretty big business, especially here in the Twin Cities. We've got over a dozen salvage related businesses right around Minneapolis alone.

[Erin Brown]

So, Chris, I grew up on a salvage yard, and so we had two trailer houses, a green one and a blue one. The blue one was piled up with hubcaps, and the green one is where my family lived.

[Chris Magen]

Okay.

[Erin Brown]

And so people would come knock on the door looking for hubcaps. Like, no, that's the other one, buddy.

[Nicole Norfleet]

You didn't have a sign.

[Erin Brown]

So we didn't have a sign. You would think there would be a sign, but at a junkyard for cars and car parts, people know to go to the junkyard because they're looking for the stuff. But if I'm trying to build something and I want to go to Menards or Home Depot, but I don't like the prices for the new materials, where do I go to look for the things I might need?

[Chris Magen]

That's a great question. And there's a lot of options here in the Twin Cities, and there's probably a lot of options in greater Minnesota as well. The ones that I focused on were part of this, what Hennepin county was calling it, salvage crawl. And they were highlighting about a dozen businesses in and around Minneapolis that you can visit. One of the ones that I found to be really interesting is Better Futures Minnesota. They hire men who've recently been released from incarceration and they go and do these deconstructions is what they like to call them, rather than a demolition. And then they have a store here in Minneapolis, I think it's on Minnehaha. They call it a cross between a big box store like a Home Depot or a Menards and a Goodwill, like a thrift shop, so to speak. And they have pretty much anything you can think of. Some of the most popular stuff is flooring, dimensional lumber, lighting fixtures, bathroom fixtures. But. But I've seen some of the stuff that's pictured online. A lot of those really nice built ins from the old homes that we have around the Twin Cities and throughout Minnesota. People just pull them out and they wind up going to one of these salvage businesses. And you could really get some cool stuff if you really look. Another thing I wanted to mention is that this really isn't like, it's not a real. It's not a new idea, so to speak. I talked to somebody from restore, which is run by Habitat for Humanity, and they mentioned that they opened their first restore in 1991 in Canada and they have two in the Twin Cities and are opening a third in Brooklyn Park. So, yeah, I think, you know, these facilities, these businesses, I just say are all over the place and it should be pretty easy to find. Like your, you know, your hubcap.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Yeah, your hubcap business.

[Chris Magen]

Business there. Yeah.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Now why would I want to go to a salvage store as opposed to buying, like you said, Menards and stuff like that?

[Chris Magen]

Oh, sure. Well, you know, there's a number of different reasons. One of the most common ones I heard was people who are rehabbing homes are looking for matching wood, wood for their floors. So like, their wood flooring is a certain species or a certain cut and they need to find that and it's easier to find and reuse it rather than try to buy new. Another thing is, is that, you know, a lot of this stuff that's for sale at these places is really cool and has a really interesting story. So I think a lot of folks really liked that kind of idea of being able to talk about, you know, that light fixture. Oh, I found that, you know, it was sort of a dumpster dive, kind.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Of a nice dinner topic party.

[Chris Magen]

And then just keep in mind that like some of the dimensional lumber, you know, not to knock the big box stores, but some of the dimensional lumber and Some of these newer stores, it's really hard to find a board that isn't got a big curve to it. And some of the stuff that's being pulled out of these demolition projects or deconstruction projects, you know, it's 100 year old lumber and it's in really good shape and can be reused. And you're, you know, you're, you're sometimes even using like hardwoods rather than like the pine that we usually can buy now when it comes to that kind of a thing.

[Nicole Norfleet]

And I'm guessing besides just the history that it's also so cheaper, right?

[Chris Magen]

Yeah, oh yeah. And as the one of the people from the pollution control agency repeatedly told me, tariff free. Although it sounds like that maybe isn't quite as big of a concern today as it was a week ago when I wrote, when I published the story.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Well, you know, the day is changing. You know, every news is tomorrow is a new day.

[Chris Magen]

Yeah, tomorrow's a new day for sure. Yeah, for sure.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Well, thank you so much, Chris. I'm excited to go dumpster diving. Hopefully see you out in one of these crawls at some point.

[Chris Magen]

Yep, thanks for having me.

[Greta Kahl]

Me.

[Dave Colley]

An Australian hiker travels to the American west to walk a wilderness trail.

[Melissa]

Wasn't afraid to be out on his own.

[Dave Colley]

But Eric Robinson vanished in the hi Uinta Mountains.

[Greta Kahl]

I remember thinking, Eric, what were you thinking, mate?

[Dave Colley]

I'm Dave Colley. Join me on my podcast Uinta Triangle where I travel the world to answer the question what happened to Eric Robinson? Follow Uinta Triangle, that's U I n T a triangle on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen.

[Nicole Norfleet]

So Aaron, I know your kids are older and so some of this is probably in your rear view mirror, but oh my God, kids are so freaking expensive.

[Erin Brown]

It's, it's recent traumatic past for me, especially childcare.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Like I don't understand how people pay for childcare. I was looking things up and I realized that some of the options that were available to me as a new mom, it was like way more than my mortgage. I just don't get like how we're supposed to be able to pay for this.

[Erin Brown]

Well, I don't know myself. You know, we did a combination of my in laws and I was able to work from home part time when the kids were little and my wife, then when we had twins stayed home. So I mean, but it changed our lives. You know, you either have to do something dramatic like stay home or you have to find the money and that's hard.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Well, as Erin and I know very well kids cost a lot of money. And the Trump administration wants Americans to have more kids. So they're discussing incentives. But are these incentives worth it? What does it take to raise a child in Minnesota? Our economy reporter, Emma Nelson has the answer. And she's a new mom herself, so she knows this stuff really well. Hi, Emma.

[Emma Nelson]

Hello.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Okay, so let's start with the news, which is that the Trump White House is floating the idea of paying moms $5,000 to help with each baby they have. Where does this idea come from?

[Emma Nelson]

So this is one of multiple ideas that are kind of out there right now as the administration really seeks to get people to have more babies. They want to see more kids in the United States. It's no secret that birth rates have been falling in the United States and in countries around the world for a while now. What is different right now is that we are really seeing this previously kind of of marginal pronatalist movement really gained footing in the White House and in people close to the President. So examples are Vice President J.D. vance, Elon Musk, who has, of course, been an advisor to the President and himself. It's believed he has 13 children.

[Nicole Norfleet]

That's what I read somewhere. Yeah.

[Emma Nelson]

Yeah. Not. Not 100% sure, but a lot of kids. And this ideology really is grounded in this idea that if birth rates don't go up soon, we're facing a really dire future, even an apocalyptic future. So that's driving a lot of the conversations right now.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Now, proposals like this $5,000 credit, is there any research to show that they are actually effective in being an incentive.

[Emma Nelson]

For people to have babies? Things like this have been tried historically in a lot of different contexts. They're being tried now in places around the world. And the short answer is, no, they're not. They're not effective. If you look at a place like South Korea, the picture there is really interesting. They have the world's lowest birth rate, and the government is doing all kinds of things, subsidizing health care costs, housing, exempting men from military service. You can even get free taxi rides if you have kids.

[Nicole Norfleet]

So a lot of free lumber would be nice.

[Emma Nelson]

Yeah, I know. I wouldn't say no, but it's really not moving the needle. You know, it's not really typical anymore to see families with a whole bunch of kids. I think about my own family. My mom's mom was one of eight. My mom was one of four, and I'm one of two. Right. And that's a lot more typical. Yeah. So I think Just, you know, women being more educated, being in the workplace, having access to birth control. I mean, all of these things are contributing to a decline that's probably not going to be turned around.

[Nicole Norfleet]

And so you crunch the numbers. How much does it cost to raise a kid in Minnesota? I guess on average.

[Emma Nelson]

So I will start with the big caveat that this is gonna sound low to anyone who has a kid. And there are two reasons for that. One, I look at just the absolute bare minimum, like what it takes to have the baby and raise them with, you know, food, clothes, transportation, like nothing extra. And this is looking at averages from across the state. So for example, childcare is more expensive in the metro than outstate. So that's going to affect the numbers a little bit because we're looking at a statewide average. But with that, that huge caveat aside, we're looking at between about $200,000 and $300,000 from birth to 18.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Erin, is that shuffle out for you?

[Erin Brown]

Feels low.

[Nicole Norfleet]

It is low.

[Emma Nelson]

It is low. Maybe we could say, you know, the cost of the bare minimum.

[Nicole Norfleet]

I don't, I'm trying to think of how much I spent on diapers last month and I'm like, I feel, you know, and I have a gold plated IVF baby too. So that's probably. I started off, I started off expensive.

[Emma Nelson]

Yeah, I mean valid.

[Nicole Norfleet]

So the biggest chunk of that you said is the cost of childcare, which, you know, literally is the first thing a parent would tell you. It is one of the main things that we chat about when I speak to other moms too is like, what do you do? What do you do when you are about to have a baby?

[Emma Nelson]

Definitely. I mean, we reached out to readers kind of broadly and said, tell us your experiences with the cost of having a child generally. And by and large we heard about childcare and just saying, you know, this is. I'm essentially paying for college for my kid out of pocket with no financial aid.

[Nicole Norfleet]

I changed my whole life around just like I'm sure you did. I started working nights literally because I knew that I was gonna have a baby and I wanted to be home more. And I also wasn't 100% sure about what my daycare needs were gonna be. And so I wanted to give us a little bit of flexibility where we'd, you know, we'd be on separate schedules and it's a sacrifice to be on a different schedule as your partner. So I throw a few hundred dollars a month to my sister in law who by the grace of God has been able to take that kid and who's watching him right now.

[Erin Brown]

But, you know, my mom was a childcare provider for years and she earned, I did her taxes, poverty wages, basically for 20 years doing this. And so this is the baffling and maddening thing about it is parents pay so much to get the childcare. The childcare providers don't really make that much. In fact, they're one of the lowest paid professions out there. There. And so like, how, how does that work? How does that happen in a system like this?

[Emma Nelson]

Emma, That's a good question. And it's, it's one that I think people ask all the time. It's one I have certainly asked. And the way people in the industry have explained it to me is there's really just a lot of overhead. So if you think about a child care center, for example, I'll talk about family home based care in a minute. But a center has a building with all the costs that go along with that, right? Rent or mortgage, keeping the lights on.

[Nicole Norfleet]

All the crayons that get chewed.

[Emma Nelson]

Right.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Supplies, cleaning food for kids.

[Emma Nelson]

Replacing things that get damaged, whatever. And then you have the teachers who, like you said, Erin, are making very little money. Oftentimes it's less than $15 an hour, which in many parts of the state is less than minimum wage. But there are legal requirements about the number of teachers you have to have per number of kids. So that's why infant care is the most expensive, because you have the highest ratio of teachers to kids.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Yeah. You can't let those little guys crawl around and be.

[Emma Nelson]

No. I mean, actually I think the ratio is four babies to one teacher, which feels crazy to me, like thinking about taking care of my own baby plus three more babies, I don't know. So I respect that work greatly. But basically, at the end of the day, with all these other costs, licensing, different things, there's just not that much left over for teacher pay. Now if you look at a family based center, there's way less overhead, right. The building is someone's house, probably. There's not, you know, managers there and other types of positions that need to be paid. It's probably just one person and several kids. And so you're gonna see that those costs are significantly less. At the same time, there's this huge number of family providers leaving the industry.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Because you're not making enough money.

[Emma Nelson]

You're not making enough money. And a lot of them are retiring and people our age aren't really that interested in doing it.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Obviously, as a new mom, congratulations. Emma, there are benefits to having kids besides, you know, the drawbacks of them being expensive. I wanted to at least highlight some of the positive stuff. Right, Erin, about, like, why. Why people should have kids.

[Erin Brown]

We do it for a reason. It is a good thing. The children are our future.

[Nicole Norfleet]

The children are our future. And also, they're just fun. Eight months is a fun stage. She's, like, smiling and, like, what else is she doing?

[Emma Nelson]

Oh, my gosh. So much. She's really trying to crawl. She's so frustrated that she can't crawl. She's just, like, flipping over a lot and getting upset about that. She's got little teeth now, which are extremely sharp. And, yeah, she just has a little personality now, which is really fun. So I don't want to say that, you know, having kids is just spending money because it's more than that.

[Nicole Norfleet]

It's living life. It's living life. And for my one and a half year old, Nina, now he can walk. And so it's just like a lot of. I mean, he. He's also falling and bumping into everything, but it's just like, a lot of fun having them enriching in your life. Thanks, Emma, for talking to us and being with me on this new mom journey. We're gonna make it.

[Emma Nelson]

We're gonna make it.

[Nicole Norfleet]

We're gonna make it.

[Erin Brown]

I'm on the other end, so. You will make it. And it is worth it. You just gotta keep going.

[Nicole Norfleet]

All right. Like the good Minnesotans we are, let's overstay our welcome and do the Minnesota goodbye. Aaron, before we go, what's a moment from this week that felt very Minnesota to you?

[Erin Brown]

Well, for me, this week was the finals week of my last semester teaching at the now Minnesota north, formerly Hibben Community College, where I've taught for 21 years. As I embark on this journey at the Minnesota Star Tribune. So very exciting. The long goodbye has been literally stretched out. I told them I was doing this two months ago, so. Talk about a long goodbye. That's a record winner right there. Two months and just a wonderful life that the place gave me. I raised my kids as a teacher, and now I get to start this exciting new chapter as a not ancient person, still pretty young, and get to do this new second act in life. So that's kind of cool.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Well, big congrats to you, Erin. That's like, not a small deal at all. 5,000 students.

[Erin Brown]

Yeah, 5,000 overtime at least, as far as I know. I don't know. I lost track of it back there.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Somewhere, but no, no. And I think you even counted the steps to your classroom.

[Erin Brown]

Yeah. 321 steps. I'm a step guy. I keep track of these things. So, you know.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Wow. Wow. Well, big congrats. Anytime. I actually get excited about Minnesota sports is when we blow up, you know, woes in five. Moves in five. I'm so excited that we made it. I mean, obviously, without, you know, Steph. I know it was a little bit of a, you know, cheat.

[Erin Brown]

Cheat sheet, but who cares?

[Nicole Norfleet]

Who cares? It's sports. Sports. And so I'm very excited that we're gonna actually be here again in the conference final. And it's just like, electric time in the city. I can't wait to see what celebrities we get to see here. I'm kind of, like, knocking on wood, because as soon as I'm very excited, things go very downhill. We all fail miserably.

[Erin Brown]

It's like those ghosts in Mario Brothers where when you look at them.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Oh, yeah.

[Erin Brown]

They disappear. Yeah.

[Nicole Norfleet]

And then you turn around and they're.

[Erin Brown]

Like, well, you're not looking. They're terrible. They'll get you. I think it's the. Anthony Edwards is bringing an energy Ant man is bringing an energy that is not Minnesotan. And we need it.

[Nicole Norfleet]

We need it. We don't, like, brag enough.

[Erin Brown]

Right.

[Nicole Norfleet]

You know, we need a little bit of, like, antics and stuff like that. You know, I just feel like we are too humble sometimes. We just need to just have fun with it, Right?

[Erin Brown]

Yep, Exactly. And you just need to just to have that killer, like, we're gonna go get it, even if they don't want to give it to us, you know, kind of a thing. Eat the last piece. Eat the last piece of cake or pie that's left over because it's yours. We don't think that way. But Ann Edwards, he's there. He's showing us the way.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Showing us the way. Well, I hope we get another catchphrase out of this series, too.

[Erin Brown]

That's right.

[Nicole Norfleet]

Here's hoping. Here's hoping. Go, Wolves.

[Erin Brown]

Well, that's all for today. Thanks for being with us.

[Nicole Norfleet]

We'll be back next Friday. Bye. Worth it is a co production of the Minnesota Star Tribune and Lemonade Media. It's hosted by me, Nicole Norfleet and Erin Brown. The production team includes Melissa Townsend, Chrissy Pease and Tiffany Bowie, with help from Zoe Jackson and Casey Darnell. This series is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with technical help from Matt Gilmer. Our theme was composed by Dan Milott, Lemonada's senior vice president of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson and the Star Tribune's director of Audio and video initiatives is Jenny Pink. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Follow Worth it wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. Catch you next week.

[Emma Nelson]

Bye.

[Megan]

Hi, I'm Megan and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurship entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Hear new episodes each week ad free on Amazon Music. You can also ask Alexa Alexa, play Confessions of a Female Founder with many on Amazon Music and she will.