What to Listen to Next: Kill List

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Kill List" – Episode: What to Listen to Next

Podcast Information:

• Title: Ghost Story
• Host/Author: Wondery | Pineapple Street Studios
• Episode: What to Listen to Next: Kill List
• Release Date: November 1, 2024
• Description: Ghost Story explores the eerie connections between supernatural occurrences and real-life tragedies, blending investigative journalism with gripping storytelling. Recognized with several awards, the series delves deep into unexplained phenomena and their impact on those who encounter them.

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Episode Overview

In the episode titled "What to Listen to Next: Kill List", hosted by Marshall Louis, listeners are introduced to a compelling narrative that transitions from the supernatural elements of Ghost Story to the dark, intricate world of cybercrime and assassination markets on the darknet. This episode serves as a bridge, recommending Kill List as a must-listen series for fans seeking intense, real-world suspense and true crime storytelling.

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Detailed Summary

Introduction and Transition

The episode opens with Marshall Louis, Chief Content Officer at Wondery, extending gratitude to the listeners for engaging with Ghost Story. He emphasizes Wondery's commitment to creating immersive and thought-provoking podcast experiences. Louis introduces Kill List as the next riveting series, highlighting its edge-of-your-seat suspense derived from real-life family drama and cybercrime.

"Kill List offers a gripping edge of your seat experience. But this time the danger isn't supernatural. It is a bit of a family drama like Ghost Story, but in a very different way."
– Marshall Louis [00:00]

Overview of Kill List

Kill List centers around a journalist, Carl Miller, who uncovers a darknet website offering murder-for-hire services. As Miller delves deeper, he stumbles upon a list of assassination orders that not only threaten innocent lives but also intertwine with his personal history, particularly the unsolved murder of his wife's great grandmother, Naomi Dancy, in 1937.

The Murder of Amy Orwine

The narrative follows the tragic case of Amy Orwine, a 43-year-old mother and dog trainer from Cottage Grove, Minneapolis. Initially presumed a suicide due to a gunshot wound, detective Randy McAllister becomes suspicious when forensic evidence reveals inconsistencies, such as the gun's location on her body.

"It looked like a suicide, but Detective McAllister needed to be certain."
– Carl Miller [04:14]

Discovery of the Kill List

Chris Montero, a hacker by night and a cybersecurity specialist by day, contacts Miller with disturbing findings. While investigating darknet assassination sites, Montero discovers a vulnerability allowing access to backend data, revealing hundreds of murder orders, including one for Amy Orwine.

"The first thing he noticed was the comforting smell of a suburban family home."
– Chris Montero [03:47]

Through meticulous investigation, it becomes evident that Amy's murder was orchestrated through these illicit channels, with payments made in Bitcoin to masked operatives. Detective McAllister connects these findings to Amy's husband, Stephen Orwine, uncovering his involvement in procuring the hit, ultimately leading to his conviction.

Interaction with Law Enforcement

Miller attempts to escalate the issue by contacting local police and eventually the Metropolitan Police. Despite presenting concrete evidence, the response is tepid, resulting in the case being handed over to Interpol. This transition highlights systemic challenges in addressing international cybercrimes and dark web activities.

"Interpol is the international police agency. They don't really investigate crimes. They're the glue that connects different police forces around the world together..."
– Carl Miller [22:27]

Ethical Dilemmas and Journalistic Responsibility

Faced with impending threats from the darknet operatives, Yura, the site's administrator, and mounting pressure from ongoing assassination orders, Miller grapples with the ethical implications of his reporting. The responsibility to protect potential victims weighs heavily against the constraints of journalistic conduct.

"I've never dealt with anything like this before, and I have no idea whether I can even help anyone."
– Carl Miller [26:39]

Climactic Tension and Unresolved Threats

As the episode progresses, Miller discovers the extensive nature of the kill list, which includes 85 names with detailed personal information, making each listed individual vulnerable to assassination. The episode concludes on a suspenseful note, with Miller preparing to contact one of the listed victims, underscoring the immediate danger and the unresolved nature of the investigation.

"It's like a white car that's now on fire. It's a raging fire. That's a fucking death threat."
– Chris Montero [25:14]

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Notable Quotes

• Marshall Louis:
  "Kill List offers a gripping edge of your seat experience. But this time the danger isn't supernatural..."
  [00:00]

• Carl Miller:
  "Detective McAllister realized what this so called Internet throws threat had really been. Someone was planning Amy's murder in secret."
  [15:53]

• Chris Montero:
  "Dog Day God had a lot of details that only somebody very close to Amy would have, even down to the level of describing where Amy was traveling to."
  [19:03]

• Brian Merchant (Harper's Magazine):
  "The targets on the kill list could be completely oblivious that someone wants them dead."
  [40:20]

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Conclusion

The episode "What to Listen to Next: Kill List" masterfully sets the stage for an intense exploration of cybercrime and its real-world ramifications. By intertwining personal narratives with the broader implications of darknet activities, the podcast promises a compelling journey into the shadows of the internet and the human stories affected by these hidden dangers.

Listeners are left eager to delve into Kill List, anticipating a blend of investigative depth and harrowing true crime, underpinned by meticulous research and heart-pounding suspense.

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Stay Tuned:
Kill List continues in its multifaceted examination of assassination markets and the individuals caught in their crosshairs. Subscribe and listen to new episodes on the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify to follow Carl Miller’s quest for truth and justice.

Transcript

[Marshall Louis]

Hey, Marshall. Louie here. I am the Chief Content Officer at Wondery and a producer on Ghost Story. And on behalf of everyone who worked on this show, I want to thank you for listening to this series. We are so thrilled you've taken this crazy, thought provoking journey of this show with us. And this is how we like to do things at Wondery. We believe that a podcast should do more than just tell a story. It should immerse you in. It should grip you from that very first moment, keep you on the edge of your seat until the final seconds. And when it's over, you feel like you've gone somewhere, learned something, you've gone deeper into an understanding of the world. And we think about every detail of the story to make that happen. And this series, made with our partners at Pineapple Street Studios, is a perfect example of this. Now we have another show that we would love to recommend to you if you liked Ghost Story. It's called Kill List. And like the series you just listened to, Killist offers a gripping edge of your seat experience. But this time the danger isn't supernatural. It is a bit of a family drama like Ghost Story, but in a very different way. It follows a journalist who uncovers a murder for hire site where people are taking out hits, often on their loved ones. And when one of those murders takes place, the journalist finds himself in a position where he needs to try and save lives, all while navigating a web of crime and danger that only gets more and more intense with each episode. It's the same meticulous attention to detail that made Ghost Story such an unforgettable experience. The atmosphere, the pacing, the tension. And I am quite certain that when you start Killist, you will not be able to stop listening. So if you loved the rollercoaster ride of suspense and revelation that was Ghost Story, you are going to really like Kill List. And we are excited to share episode one of this series with you. If you're ready to dive deeper, you can follow Kill List on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Carl Miller]

Hey, it's Carl here. I'm the presenter of the show. I just wanted to let you know that this episode contains references to suicide. We've put some links with resources in the episode notes in case you're affected by the things we talk about in the show. Everything was quiet When Detective Randy McAllister drove down the dark tree lined road to the old wine house.

[Chris Montero]

There aren't really any street lights for the most part, but I could see flashing emergency lights down the road.

[Carl Miller]

It was around 8pm on Nov. 13, 2016. McAllister pulled down the gravel drive. It was after harvest time and crops were turning brown in the fields.

[Chris Montero]

There were a lot of police cars there, you know, a lot of police officers. I saw Stephen Alwyn and their son standing out on the road.

[Carl Miller]

Detective McAllister approached the house, an open plan one story building with solar panels on the roof. The door to the garage was open. A light from inside spilled out, casting shadows on the neatly cut grass.

[Chris Montero]

I went through the access door in the garage. Inside the house, as you step through that door, you're in a mud room, a couple of dog kennels there.

[Carl Miller]

The first thing he noticed was the comforting smell of a suburban family home.

[Chris Montero]

There was a pumpkin being roasted in a roaster on the countertop in the kitchen. It felt kind of warm and homey. There were pictures of the family on the walls in the living room. I just got a sense that this was a normal family and they seemed to love each other. They seem to be very involved in each other's lives.

[Carl Miller]

Detective McAllister made his way down the hall towards the master bedroom. He stepped through the doorway. There was a body on the floor next to the bed. It was Amy Orwine, Stephen's wife. In the crook of her left arm was a gun. It looked like a suicide, but Detective Nicallister needed to be certain. He told one of the other officers on the scene to go and ask Stephen if Amy was right or left handed.

[Chris Montero]

And he indicated that she was right handed, which would explain the wound in the right side of her head, if it was suicide.

[Carl Miller]

Except the gun wasn't in her right hand.

[Chris Montero]

I've seen weapons in suicides do weird things and seemingly defy physics sometimes. But the gun was found on the left side of her body.

[Carl Miller]

That was enough to make McAllister pause. He taped off the scene, got a search warrant and called in a forensics team to come down and take a look. Just to be cautious. They sprayed the house down with luminol, a chemical that glows a pale blue in the presence of blood.

[Chris Montero]

When they luminoled the scene, there were bloody footprints throughout the house from the master bedroom on back to the mudroom next to the garage. There was evidence of a large blood pool right outside the master bedroom. This is going to be a big case. Holy cow.

[Carl Miller]

Detective McAllister was right. It was going to be a big case. Not just for him, but for me. Bigger than I ever could have imagined. What began there with Amy would catapult Me into the darkest reaches of the Internet. It would involve hundreds of murder plots across dozens of countries, a dark web cybercrime empire, the FBI, Interpol and me. And a small team of journalists, investigators and hackers having to make life and death decisions we never thought would be in our hands. And it all centered around one documentary. The Kill List from Wandery and novel. I'm Carl Miller. This is kill list, episode one, the hack. In June 2020, I was at home in my flat in West London, one of the places in the UK hit earliest and hardest by the pandemic. It was lockdown and outside the road was silent, apart from the sound of ambulances. All right, Chris, what's been going on?

[Chris Montero]

Way too much. Way too much. Cascade of things. Well, two things.

[Carl Miller]

I was on a video call with a man called Chris Montero. Chris has a short beard and long dark hair pulled back into a ponytail, graying a little at the temples. His pale face appeared almost white against the gloom of his flat. And he looked at me with dark rings under his eyes. He was nighty specialist by day, but a hacker by night. Chris had called me and said we needed to speak urgently. All right, well, Chris, tell us about this case. Is it one minute? One minute. It's the first serious one minute.

[Chris Montero]

I'll go into. Just a sec. So what has happened?

[Carl Miller]

I'm a technology researcher at a think tank and an author. I first met Chris while researching a book about how power is being transformed in the digital age. Chris work had fascinated me for a long time and I thought it might make a good podcast. At that time, my world revolved around writing and papers, talks, a bit of travel. It was comfortable, normally. But everything changed when my life collided with everything you're about to hear. And it all began with what Chris had to show me. A document filled with strange usernames and messages.

[Dog Day God]

I would like to order a killing by stabbing using a tactical knife. I'm wondering if a mugging gone wrong might be an option. Maybe use something like heroin or fentanyl.

[Carl Miller]

Chris was doing what he often did, investigating the myths and rumors that swirl around about the darknet. He was looking as a hitman for hire website, a place where people go to try and hire assassins. Chris was poking around, probing it, seeing what he could learn. And then he almost stumbled over something momentous, a vulnerability, a little opening in how the website worked. And he could squeeze through that gap and into the back end of the website. He could see what the administrators could see, and that included the kill orders that were being Made every single one of them kill him and make it.

[Dog Day God]

Look like a car accident on the road.

[Carl Miller]

Right now, all over the world, there are hundreds of people going about their lives with no idea that somebody wants them dead.

[Dog Day God]

This person needs to go away. Not only silenced, but disposed of without a trace, never to be found again.

[Carl Miller]

Someone in these people's lives filled with hatred, jealousy or rage has paid to have them killed.

[Dog Day God]

Need target killed. Make look like an accident. Seeking house to be burned down with occupants inside. No survivors.

[Carl Miller]

Chris took me through the list. Along with the messages, there were names of what appeared to be real people being targeted. Photos, descriptions of their habits, their addresses. And one of the names on the list was Amy Orwine. Amy lived in a sleepy little Minneapolis suburb called Cottage Grove. It's the kind of place you'd move to to get away from the action. It's all green lawns and neat clapboard houses. The highlight of the social calendar is the annual Strawberry Fest with its grand parade, pet show and a strawberry pie eating contest. It was late May 2016 when Amy Orwine's phone rang. Two police officers were outside her house. One from Cottage Grove Police Department, the other from the FBI. It was not a call Amy expected to receive. 43 years old, a mother and professional dog trainer. She and her husband Stephen were devoted churchgoers who'd been together since they met in college. Run ins with the law were not a part of her day to day life. Amy wasn't at home when the officers called, so she went down to the local police station the next day. When she arrived, an FBI agent sat her down in an interview room. They had something to tell her. Someone had made what they described as a death threat against her on the Internet. They asked Amy who she thought could be behind the threat. Amy didn't know. She couldn't think of a single enemy. At a loss, Amy gave the agents some names. Friends, people she knew from her dog training business. And in the weeks after the FBI did some searches on people's electronic devices, they asked questions. Nothing. Amy and her husband installed a security alarm on their house. They bought a gun for protection and stored it in a cabinet by their bedroom. Almost two months later, in late July, Amy received two strange emails.

[Dog Day God]

I am still watching you and your family. I expect to see your obituary in the paper in the next couple weeks.

[Carl Miller]

The emails told Amy to kill herself and threatened her friends and family if she didn't. She contacted the FBI. Whoever it was that had it in for her was still out there. According to the local police The FBI told Amy that the emails actually seemed like a escalation compared to the threat they found online. They would keep investigating for a while. Amy didn't tell her family about the death threat, but holding it in was torture. Late one evening that August, after Amy's son had gone to bed, she sat out on the deck with her sister Julie. The two of them had always been. When Julie went to college, Amy wrote her a letter every single week so she wouldn't get home sick. Sitting in the warm night air, Amy's voice shook as she told Julie she feared that the person who wanted her dead might hurt her family. How hard it had been to pass names to the FBI, possibly casting suspicion on innocent friends. She desperately wished that she could just apologize to whoever was behind the threat for whatever she had done to anger them. Then a few Months later, on November 13th, at 7:00pm, Minneapolis 911 dispatch received a call. It's pretty distressing to listen to 911.

[Dog Day God]

What's the address of the emergency?

[Carl Miller]

Thank you. Hello? I think mine. I think my wife shot herself. There's blood all over. Okay. What is your address, sir? It's Stephen Orwine, Amy's husband. He told the operator he'd come home to find his wife on the bedroom floor with a gunshot wound to the head. Does she still have the gun, sir?

[Marshall Louis]

Sir?

[Carl Miller]

Yeah. Detective Randy McAllister had examined the scene and he wasn't sure this was a suicide.

[Chris Montero]

I mean, at this point we know at least somebody cleaned up the scene.

[Carl Miller]

And there was another reason why Detective McAllister was suspicious. Back in May, he'd been contacted by the FBI who said they were looking into a threat against amy. According to McAllister, the FBI had only told Cottage Grove police about a vague Internet threat and asked for help making contact with Amy. They didn't provide any more details. Now he asked the FBI for any information they could give him about their investigation.

[Chris Montero]

When we finally got the reports was when we fully understood that, okay, somebody actually spent what we estimated to be 12 to $13,000 on Bitcoin to have her murdered. That's the first time we really truly understood that.

[Carl Miller]

Sifting through the FBI reports, McAllister realized what this so called Internet throws threat had really been. Nine months earlier, someone had gone onto the darknet and paid for Amy to be murdered on the very Murder for hire website that Chris Montero had broken into. They went by the username Dog Day.

[Dog Day God]

God, I am looking to hire you for a hit. What is the price in bitcoin for a Hit and ideally making it look like an accident.

[Carl Miller]

The site administrator replied.

[Yura]

Regarding the price. Normal killing by gunshot is $5,000. That is 13 bitcoin. A killing by a gunshot is the easiest and cheapest.

[Carl Miller]

Dogday God uploaded a picture of Amy, a broad smile across her face as she leans against the railing of a ship. They gave her a dress and a detailed breakdown of her movements.

[Dog Day God]

The target will be traveling out of town to Moline, Illinois in March.

[Carl Miller]

On 6th March, Dogday God made a payment of over $5,000 in Bitcoin to the assassins.

[Dog Day God]

For reasons that are too personal and would give away my identity. I need this bitch dead. So please help me.

[Carl Miller]

Thanks. The FBI told Detective McAllister they'd found an Internet threat. But this wasn't just a threat. Someone was planning Amy's murder in secret. Dogday God spent weeks messaging the hitman for hire site administrator, a shadowy figure who is often anonymous, but sometimes goes by the name Yura. They discussed the logistics of the killing, the price of the hit, the location, the best way to buy bitcoin. But then Dogday God started getting frustrated.

[Dog Day God]

It does not look like anything has happened yet, and I still have no evidence that she's even being tracked.

[Carl Miller]

Yura, the site administrator replied, you're right.

[Yura]

This has been dragging quite a long time and needs to be completed asap. I will explain a bit why this has been so chaotic, even if maybe you don't want to hear excuses.

[Carl Miller]

Jura offered a solution.

[Yura]

We can assign a great team with experts that have military training. If you can add 8 bitcoin to your account.

[Carl Miller]

Dogdegod was willing to try again. But then we are halfway through our.

[Dog Day God]

Current window and I have not heard anything yet. I just talked with her, which means it is not done yet. Not good.

[Carl Miller]

Still no sign of a hitman.

[Dog Day God]

Just requested a refund. You guys have not been able to get this done.

[Chris Montero]

My gut feeling upon first looking at it was it was a scam.

[Carl Miller]

Detective McAllister realized that the site's administrator had no intention of delivering on the hit. They were just taking the money and stringing dogday God along. But even if there were no hitmen, Dog Dae God was clearly deadly serious. They wanted Amy dead, and soon. Detective McAllister believed these messages could lead him to Amy's killer.

[Chris Montero]

Dog Day God had a lot of details that only somebody very close to Amy would have, even down to the level of describing where Amy was traveling to.

[Carl Miller]

McAllister handed the order details to a computer forensics team while they worked on tracing the hit payment, McAllister dug into the people closest to Amy. He started with her husband, Stephen Orwine. Stephen was the one who had reported Amy's death to the police. They'd been married for 20 years at the local church. Stephen was one of the respected elders. He gave sermons, held couples counselling, and even filmed dance tutorials for the church with Amy waltzing across their living room. After Amy's death, Stephen was staying with Amy's parents. But there were a few details that made Detective McAllister curious. Three days after Amy's death, Stephen was brought in for an interview at the police station.

[Chris Montero]

When he came in for the interview, he came in with his attorney. Now, under our legal system in the US that's perfectly acceptable. That's his right. But in my entire career, I've never had a loved one of a suicide victim talk to us with an attorney.

[Carl Miller]

During the interview, Stephen seemed distant, even a bit cold. That didn't prove anything. I mean, people can react in all sorts of ways to traumatic events. But Detective McAllister was looking for leads. And his next stop was to get a warrant to search Stephen's phone and computers. Stephen had been messaging women on multiple dating websites.

[Chris Montero]

Ashley Madison was one of them, which is a well known website for men to cheat on with other women.

[Carl Miller]

On his phone, the police found a.

[Chris Montero]

Strange contact, Specifically a female name and a phone number. No last name. He apparently was having an affair with her.

[Carl Miller]

Stephen had even met up with women on trips he'd take to give sermons at churches out of state.

[Chris Montero]

You almost feel disappointed because on the one hand, there's this perception that they're just a great family. Then you start realizing, okay, he's not.

[Carl Miller]

So great from those digital contacts. The next step for Randy McCannister was Steven's finances.

[Chris Montero]

He had sold a bunch of silver bullion to a local pawn shop for cash. He immediately took cash from his second transaction. I think it was at this pawn shop. And purchased Bitcoin in person from a private seller at a restaurant in Minneapolis.

[Carl Miller]

And it was only two days later, that dog day, God made a payment of $5,000 to the website for Amy's murder.

[Dog Day God]

I need this bitch, dad.

[Carl Miller]

McAllister was building a case against Stephen, but so far, the evidence was mostly circumstantial. He needed hard proof. On December 12, 2016, McAllister got a phone call. It was from a detective from the digital forensics team who'd been looking into the order.

[Chris Montero]

He said, I found the Bitcoin address on Stephen Alwyn's computer.

[Carl Miller]

The payment that had been made to the assassination site came from a bitcoin wallet. And that wallet was linked to Stephen.

[Chris Montero]

That was as good as a fingerprint in my opinion, because you really can't recreate by chance a bitcoin address. That was the best direct evidence we could have gotten.

[Carl Miller]

Steven was Dogday God. In February of 2016, he signed up to the Hitman for Hire website and tried to place a hit on his wife.

[Dog Day God]

It looks like she will be home tomorrow from 12 to 1pm and Thursday from 12 to 1pm Let me know the plan so I can be somewhere else public.

[Carl Miller]

In May, after four months of messaging on the site, Dog Dae God goes silent. Presumably, Stephen had given up on hiring a hitman, but then he popped up somewhere else. The police found posts from the same Dogday God username on a different dark web forum, trying to buy an anti nausea drug called Scopolamine. An overdose of scopolamine can make you disorientated and compliant. When the police ran another autopsy, they found large quantities of the drug in Amy's blood and stomach. Detective McAllister now had enough information to act. On January 17, 2017, the Cottage Grove police pulled Stephen's car over at a traffic stopped near his home and arrested him. Stephen was charged with first degree murder. Just over a year later, Stephen was convicted and sentenced to life in prison without parole. When I first heard about the kill list, the dangers seemed a bit unclear to me. After all, the Murder for Hire website was a scam. But Amy Orwine was targeted on that same website. Her death proved that the danger was real. And not because some shadowy darknet hitman was on the way, but because the customers were the real threat. They could be as dangerous as any assassin. And what Chris was showing me were hundreds more names, just like Amy's. Kill orders being requested right now. And now that I've seen inside this dark world, I need to decide what on earth to do next. When Chris first showed me the list, he showed me something else too. A grainy mobile phone video. It begins in darkness. A shadowy figure appears holding a sign with Chris username on it. Then the sound of liquid being splashed around. Fucking hell. Flames engulf the screen.

[Chris Montero]

That's the car being torched.

[Carl Miller]

Jesus Christ. It's like a white car that's now on fire. It's a raging fire. The camera shakily holds its gaze on the shell of a car. Blazing flames shoot up the windows, out the doors, over the hood. That's a fucking death threat. He's torching a car and sending it to you. For years, Chris has been publicly working to try and get the website taken down. In response, this video was sent to him by the person running the site, who goes by the name Yura. Chris took the video and all of his evidence to the UK police. After multiple attempts to report it, he finally managed to get through to some officers who seemed interested. But in the end, Chris says the police told him they couldn't take his information because it had been obtained via a hack. So he tried to work with US law enforcement instead. He'd made a contact at the Department of Homeland Security in America. So now, with more kid orders flooding in, he tried reaching out to them.

[Chris Montero]

So I send my contacts an email and say, hey, gonna send you data again. Reply. We are unable to take the data at this time due to lack of resourcing.

[Carl Miller]

The Department of Homeland Security was another dead end murder. Orders are piling up and no one in law enforcement seems to be interested. So Chris has come to me. Since I'm a journalist and a writer who has worked with the police before, Chris thinks that I might be able to help raise the alarm in terms of actions. This is what in the journalistic trade is known as a clear and present threat to life. Which means that I need to work out what to do today. Like, we can't sit on this kind of information, if you see what I mean. We're in the worst possible position I could think, like, the world is on fire. We're in the middle of a global pandemic, meaning we can't leave our houses. We found ourselves in the middle of a live assassination market and we don't even have any policy or moral guidance yet in terms of what we actually do.

[Producer]

Terrible.

[Carl Miller]

I've never dealt with anything like this before, and I have no idea whether I can even help anyone. I am not a hardened crime journalist, nor am I drawn to adventure or risk. I can't even drive a car, honestly. But I can't step away knowing that what happened to Amy Orwine might repeat itself. I tell Chris to send me the list.

[Producer]

All right, you ready?

[Carl Miller]

Yep. It's a Thursday afternoon and I'm on a call with one of my producers. The road outside my house is almost totally silent. On my computer, I open Chris's document.

[Producer]

Oh, wow, There's a lot on here.

[Carl Miller]

Yeah. Chris has run me through the orders, but this is the first time I've got my hands on the kill list itself. It's a long spreadsheet of names, locations, telephone Numbers. So how many do we have?

[Producer]

It looks like there's 85.

[Carl Miller]

85 on this list. I scroll through the list. A man from the us, A woman from Russia. Alongside each name there are contact details, workplace addresses, details of their movements. And in most cases, there are photos. The photos are the thing that strike me first. A few dozen people staring out at you as you open this document. In one, a middle aged man stands surrounded by his family. His light blue eyes twinkle with a deep and joyful pride. In another, a woman tilts her head as she smiles shyly at the camera over rimless glasses. She's somewhere glitzy. She looks relaxed and happy. The thing that's so striking about these photos is that they look like they've all been taken from social media. They look like kind of mainly Facebook profiles. So they're the ones that you decide to put on your profile picture? Yeah, they're nice photos.

[Marshall Louis]

Yeah.

[Producer]

And it's. I mean, it's just a photo, but they all just sort of have this, you know, they just don't know. And this is just sort of looming over their head and they have no idea, you know? Man, this is awful.

[Carl Miller]

This list looks like any other Excel spreadsheet. It's innocuous, boring even, until you read the instructions listed against each name.

[Dog Day God]

There's one fucking guy and I only have his name and the city he lives in. How can I hire a killer to kill him? How much bitcoin should I pay? Tell me the execution time in advance. I can't be there. I would just like this person to be shot and killed. Where, how and what with does not bother me at all. I would just like this person dead.

[Carl Miller]

These are the messages written by whoever paid to have these people assassinated. Their specifications for the hit.

[Dog Day God]

Can you kidnap, silent and erase without.

[Carl Miller]

A trace killerness in Taipe?

[Producer]

I guess we don't know the backstory. But like a nurse, I want her to be killed.

[Dog Day God]

They should seem she is dead because of accident.

[Yura]

Not one murder.

[Carl Miller]

Kidnap family in Hong Kong.

[Dog Day God]

Can we say 15 Bitcoin for hit with a car and a sure fatality.

[Producer]

Cunt Mother needs to die. Someone wants to kill their mom.

[Carl Miller]

Kill an unidentified woman in Ottawa.

[Producer]

Kill a woman who permitted sexual abuse.

[Dog Day God]

Moscow women 45 years old.

[Producer]

Jesus, man, this is terrible.

[Carl Miller]

Just like these are really, possibly 85 really serious crimes just staring back at us. Yeah, I mean, this is conspiracy to commit murder. Ethically, this is the hardest thing to cover that I've ever tried to do. And for sure, I mean, this is a Ethical bomb waiting to blow up in our faces if we don't do this correctly.

[Producer]

Yeah, I don't know, man. It looks like a big Pandora's box that we're opening. And once you open it, it's open, man. I don't think we can put it shut.

[Carl Miller]

The thought of what could go wrong if I meddle with this is terrifying, but so is the thought of what could happen if I do nothing. So I start with the obvious step. I'm quite nervous, honestly. Like, I wasn't able to sleep that well. I don't know why. Suddenly makes it a lot more real when it's just a spreadsheet at the moment and it's about to turn into a crime. I'm about to phone the police and hand over my information. Chris might have struggled with law enforcement, but I've worked with the police before in my reporting. I'm confident I can do better. After all, this is a credible threat. How hard can it be to get them to take it seriously? All right, should I just do it, then? Hi, there. My name is Carl Miller. The reason I'm calling is that I'm a journalist on a series to do with cybercrime. It's a bit of a long story. I'm on the phone to the police, trying to find the words to explain what on earth it is that I'm doing. In our kind of investigation, we've encountered a series of possible crimes. Really? So I'm just looking to disclose that.

[Police Operator]

And you said you're. Do you say you're a journalist?

[Carl Miller]

I'm a journalist, yeah.

[Police Operator]

And what's it investigating?

[Carl Miller]

This is going to sound quite strange. It's an investigation into online assassination markets on the Darknet. So these are websites. I do my best to summarize how I ended up with a spreadsheet full of murder orders.

[Police Operator]

I think this is going to be a bit complicated to report on the phone. I think maybe we'd be better to get officers to come and see you.

[Carl Miller]

Yeah, that's fine. At least the operator didn't think it was a prank.

[Police Operator]

All right, thank you.

[Carl Miller]

Bye, then.

[Police Operator]

Thanks. Bye.

[Marshall Louis]

Bye.

[Carl Miller]

I hadn't expected officers to actually physically come around to my house, but it's a good sign that they're taking it seriously. From the early morning, I start obsessively peeking through my curtains, waiting for the police to arrive. And so when they do, I watch them pull up. There's currently a police van just lingering outside my house. I start recording on my phone as the two officers get out of Their car. Hello.

[Police Officer]

Sorry. I appreciate it. Early in the morning I am.

[Carl Miller]

Yes, please come in.

[Police Officer]

Yeah, thank you very much.

[Carl Miller]

The man and woman standing in front of me are the first strangers I physically met in months. Both of them are young, still in their 20s. Actually, seeing the police uniforms, the white shirts and black ties and shoes, is making the situation feel really real. No, no, please take a seat. Okay, so it's a bit of a weird story. It's quite complicated, so it might need a number of interactions. Yeah. Right, where to begin? So it's. We sit in my living room. One of the officers has a police radio which crackles in the background as I explain the situation and walk them through the cases with the biggest payments. One is to kill a hospital worker in the Hague, one is to kill a man of Arkansas, one in Italy, and another one in the Czech Republic. So one of the problems, of course, is that these are so international.

[Police Officer]

Are the names and addresses or is it just names?

[Carl Miller]

In most cases, it's definitely like region and name. So it's like there might be a bit of a. The police are polite, attentive. They interrupt a few times to ask for clarification, and they gravely note everything down on those small notebooks you see on police dramas. There are no smirks or raised eyebrows. But I'm aware that the further I go into the story, the more utterly ridiculous the whole thing sounds. Darknet murder for hire. A hacker intercepted orders, lives in danger.

[Police Officer]

If I'm being honest and don't take this the wrong way. Yeah, I mean, I mean, this is in. We happen to be a bit diligent when we. We get cause of this nature. We generally will always see if you've got this history or a history of mental illness or things like that.

[Carl Miller]

History of mental illness. That's how mad as it sounds that like the first. So this is why they're here, to make sure I'm not crazy.

[Marshall Louis]

Yeah.

[Police Officer]

So it is very unusual. A lot of the more unusual calls we get could potentially be more mental health related.

[Carl Miller]

I mean, for what it's worth, in my career as a journalist, this is the weirdest story I've had to. Ever had to deal with. The police say they'll follow up on the orders. I hand over printouts of the messages.

[Police Officer]

Someone will be in touch, and then.

[Carl Miller]

They call it amazing.

[Police Officer]

Whatever I can find out and actually tell you after I find.

[Carl Miller]

I really appreciate it. Thank you.

[Police Officer]

Thank you.

[Carl Miller]

No worries. I'll forego the handshake given Corona. But thanks so much for coming over. Okay, well, the police have just left. I really hope that the first thing they'll do is to reach out to those victims named on the site. They really, really need to know this is happening.

[Dog Day God]

I am looking to hire for a murder of a woman. Target needs to be hit when alone.

[Carl Miller]

Days pass and nothing bonus reward of.

[Dog Day God]

500 if target is eliminated within upcoming weekend.

[Carl Miller]

I follow up with the police again and hear back from a couple of detectives. They don't tell me much, instead asking just the same kinds of questions as the first officers I met.

[Dog Day God]

Please get the job done. Best if it looks like accident or suicide.

[Carl Miller]

Then four weeks after my initial contact in mid August, I finally get an email from the Metropolitan Police. Given there are no identifiable links to the uk currently the Met will not be taking on an active investigation into the sites. But we have also passed on the intel to Interpol and they are actively investigating this. The relevant police forces in each country where a victim has been identified have been informed and also are conducting their investigations. So we've just officially as of today, been handed from the Met police who decided this wasn't their problem, to Interpol who hopefully have decided that it is. Interpol is the international police agency. They don't really investigate crimes. They're the glue that connects different police forces around the world together and they will pass our information on to the relevant local cops. What happens next is anyone's guess. Who knows if they will actually do anything to properly investigate the orders. Meanwhile, the victims are still none the wiser, the potential killers are still at large and new messages are being sent to the website all the time.

[Dog Day God]

Can you do a job in the UK for this girl? I can tell you where she runs late at night on a quiet path with no on there. Target needs to be eliminated. K Sam beat or poison or shoot. I don't have much time left and the job must be done.

[Carl Miller]

Over the years, other journalists have learned of more people who have been threatened in similar ways. One of those journalists is Brian Merchant, a writer for Harper's Magazine.

[Brian Merchant]

I did manage to speak to a few people who told me that the FBI had been in touch or the local police had said something, but they never told me what it was. It was absolutely crazy to me that law enforcement had not gone to a greater effort to investigate these cases. And as a result of this falling through the cracks, you see some very shoddy detective work. As in the case of the All Wines. There was very clearly expressed intent that this person was wanted dead. I think a serious investigation could have turned things up. And she did not need to die.

[Carl Miller]

What Brian is telling me is that Amy Alwine isn't an outlier. Police forces have repeatedly failed to take these kinds of crimes seriously. Often the victims aren't even informed of the threat. The targets on the kill list could be completely oblivious that someone wants them dead. And with disclosures going via Interpol, we have no direct contact with any of the investigators. They don't know who we are. They can't check like the UK police did to see that we're not mad. We can't tell them how we found the messages or give them updates when new ones are sent. As a journalist, you're supposed to observe, watch and report, but not interfere. But there's just no way I can wash my hands of this. It's the 29th of August, it's a weekend. It's a Saturday. And we are about to phone the first person on the kill list. I genuinely feel quite sick. Hello there, Can I speak to please?

[Yura]

Yeah, it's me.

[Carl Miller]

Hello, it's me.

[Dog Day God]

Who are you?

[Carl Miller]

That's coming up on the next episode of Kill List from Wandering and Novel. This is episode one of six of Kill List. Kill List is hosted by me, Karl Miller. It was written by me, Caroline Thornham and Tom Wright. Our lead producer is Caroline Thornham. Our producer is Tom Wright for Wandery. Our story editor is Chris Siegel and our senior producer is Russell Finch. Our assistant producer is Amalia Sorland and our researchers are Megan Oyinka and Lina Chang. Additional research from Chris Montero and from Anique Mossou, Fuka Postma and Brenna Smith at Bellingcat. Fact checking by Fendor Fulton. Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolfe for novel and Lata Pundia for Wandering. Original music by Skylar Gerdemann and Martin Linnebell. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Max O'Brien and Caroline Fornam. Sound design and mixing by Nicholas Alexander. Additional engineering by Daniel Kempson for novel. Willard Foxton is creative director of development. Our executive producers are Sean Glynn, Austin Mitchell and Max O'Brien for novel. Executive producers for Wandery are George Lavender, Marshall Louis and Jen Sargent.

[Marshall Louis]

So that was the first episode of Kill List and if you want to keep listening, you can listen to new episodes early and ad free only on Wondery Plus. And because we know you'll love this series, we're giving you a free trial. Start it today on the Wondery app, Apple podcasts or Spotify.