Fix Your Mind w/Drs Les & Leslie Parrot

Summary

Girls Gone Bible – "Fix Your Mind" w/ Drs. Les & Leslie Parrott

Episode Date: October 31, 2025
Hosts: Angela Halili & Arielle Reitsma
Guests: Drs. Les & Leslie Parrott
Main Theme: Understanding and transforming "bad thoughts"—toxic self-talk patterns—and reclaiming your mind through grace, self-awareness, and Biblical principles.

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Episode Overview

In this engaging conversation, Angela and Ari welcome back Drs. Les and Leslie Parrott, respected Christian psychologists and authors, to discuss their new book "Bad Thoughts" (co-written with Judah Smith). The episode candidly explores the negative self-talk that shapes our lives, the five most common toxic thought patterns, and how faith and psychology work together to overcome them. With real-life stories, humor, and vulnerability, the discussion offers hope and practical wisdom for anyone seeking freedom from unhealthy mental patterns.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction & Book Background (02:00–06:42)

• The Parrotts' Return: The hosts warmly welcome Les and Leslie, with playful banter about being "frequent flyers" on the show.
• Book Origins: Les explains how his work counseling Judah Smith inspired the book—a blend of a preacher’s and a shrink’s perspectives on the mind.
• Book’s Core Premise:
  • The mind is shaped by self-talk, much of which is negative and automatic.
  • “This is kind of the book your brain doesn’t want you to read, because it’s going to dismantle the toxic lies that you tell yourself.” – Dr. Les Parrott (05:46)
• Vulnerability: The book is described as honest and open, sharing universally relatable struggles.

Structure & Research Behind the Book (06:56–09:58)

• Survey of 1,000 People: Les shares that a majority of people’s self-talk is negative (citing a UCLA study: ~92% negative on average).
• The Five Toxic Thought Patterns:
  1. Guilt ("Take your last guilt trip and discover the road to grace")
  2. The Disease to Please
  3. Self-Doubt
  4. Entitlement
  5. Earning Credit with God

“What we think is most personal to us is often the most universal thing that everybody struggles with.” – Leslie Parrott (09:53)

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The Five Toxic Thoughts In-Depth

1. Guilt: Overcoming Self-Condemnation (10:03–20:40)

• Guilt as Selfish & Consuming:
  • “Guilt is just a poison in our system... It's like a toothache.” – Dr. Les Parrott (10:09)
• False Guilt vs. Godly Sorrow:
  • False guilt is homegrown from upbringing, not God; true change comes from ‘godly sorrow’ focused on future restoration.
  • “Guilt is all about the past and godly sorrow is about the future, how things are going to be different.” – Dr. Les Parrott (16:15)
• Grace as the Antidote:
  • Illustrations—such as the “guilt free drop” lesson during a juggling seminar—reinforce the liberating power of grace.
• Host Testimonies:
  • Both hosts share struggles with guilt rooted in childhood environments and how understanding grace has fostered healing.
• OCD & Guilt:
  • Ari connects obsessive-compulsive thinking with deep-seated guilt, sharing her own journey of healing (20:05).

2. The Disease to Please: People-Pleasing and Authenticity (20:57–38:53)

• Defining the Disease:
  • Difficulty in saying ‘no’, chronic boundary issues, and fear of rejection.
  • “When we have this disease to please, we are no longer authentic. We’re living in Pleasantville.” – Dr. Les Parrott (23:26)
• Pseudo vs. Authentic Relationships:
  • Surface-level relationships are safe but shallow; true intimacy requires risking conflict and being oneself.
  • “Conflict is the price we pay for a deeper relationship.” – Dr. Les Parrott (24:22)
• Attachment Styles:
  • Anxious attachments fuel people-pleasing due to fear of abandonment (24:34).
• Grace in Relationships:
  • Letting go of the need to change others often leads to unexpectedly deeper love.
• Real-Life Examples:
  • Humorous and endearing stories about personal quirks (like carrot-cutting and leaving caps off containers) depict how acceptance, not control, builds deeper bonds.

3. Self-Doubt: Breaking Learned Helplessness (39:01–50:20)

• Learned Helplessness:
  • Les recounts Martin Seligman’s experiment with dogs to illustrate how we internalize ‘helplessness’ and limit ourselves by negative beliefs (40:35).
  • “You take something personally, you believe it’s pervasive and it’s permanent—those are the makings for clinical depression.” – Dr. Les Parrott (43:36)
• The Antidote:
  • Reroute your thought grooves; use self-talk to challenge personal, pervasive, and permanent negative conclusions.
  • "Awareness is curative." – Angela (46:24)
• Biblical Integration:
  • Citing 2 Corinthians 10:5, the hosts highlight the importance of taking every thought captive to Christ.

4. Entitlement: From Victimhood to Generosity (50:20–57:59)

• Defining Entitlement:
  • A victim mentality—the belief that “life owes me” (52:43).
• Faith as a Remedy:
  • The story of Joseph in the Old Testament illustrates moving from “I deserve” to “God redeems.”
• Happiness Experiment:
  • Les describes research showing that pleasure from self-indulgence fades quickly, but generosity and helping others lead to sustained joy.
  • “If you’re looking for the antidote to entitlement—that’s what it is. Start to give your life away.” – Dr. Les Parrott (57:41)
• Personal Reflection:
  • Ari shares struggles with entitlement in singleness and recognizes that serving others brings deeper fulfillment.

5. Earning God’s Love: Receiving vs. Proving (58:17–69:08)

• Performance-Based Spirituality:
  • Many subconsciously strive to earn God’s approval.
  • “Ultimately our love is not earned. And it’s not from somebody else, it’s from God.” – Dr. Les Parrott (58:43)
• Illustrations:
  • The “Daddy, watch me!” pool story and $100 bill anecdote reinforce our unchanging value to God.
• Widespread Struggle:
  • Even ministry students feel more aware of God’s disapproval than His love (65:25).
  • “God’s love is not connected to our performance…nothing has changed.” – Leslie Parrott (62:08)
• Healing the Mind:
  • The episode persists that love, not condemnation, is at the heart of the Gospel and real freedom.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Guilt and Grace:
  “Take your last guilt trip and discover the road to grace.” – Dr. Les Parrott (11:01)
• On People-Pleasing: “We’re living in Pleasantville…But you can’t have an authentic relationship because it’s only this deep.” – Dr. Les Parrott (23:26)
• On Learned Helplessness:
  “If you take something personal, believe it’s pervasive and permanent, you have the makings for clinical depression.” – Dr. Les Parrott (43:36)
• On Entitlement:
  “If you’re looking for the antidote to entitlement—that’s what it is. Start to give your life away.” – Dr. Les Parrott (57:41)
• On God’s Love:
  “God’s love is not connected to our performance…nothing has changed.” – Leslie Parrott (62:08)
• On Changing Self-Talk:
  “It begins with your thoughts. So many people think, ‘Oh, I need to feel a certain way, and then I’ll think differently.’ And that’s just not true. Your thoughts [are the] catalyst.” – Dr. Les Parrott (68:18)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Guests Introduction & Book Setup – 02:00–06:42
• Five Toxic Thoughts Overview – 06:56–09:58
• Guilt & Grace Discussion – 10:03–20:40
• People Pleasing & Authentic Relationships – 20:57–38:53
• Self-Doubt & Learned Helplessness – 39:01–50:20
• Entitlement vs. Generosity – 50:20–57:59
• Earning God's Love – 58:17–69:08
• Summary of Five Talks & Actionable Wisdom – 69:08–END

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Takeaways & Action Points

• Awareness is Curative: Identity negative thought patterns, bringing them before God and challenging their truth.
• Grace Over Guilt: Receive God’s grace and let go of self-punishment.
• Seek Authenticity: Risk vulnerability for real relationships; let go of people-pleasing masks.
• Break the Cycle of Self-Doubt: Refuse to let “learned helplessness” define your possibilities.
• Choose Generosity: The path out of entitlement is serving and loving others.
• Rest in God’s Love: Stop striving to earn God’s approval—your value is secure and unchanging.

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Final Thoughts

Angela and Ari, alongside the Parrotts, offer deep hope anchored in Scripture and psychology: with self-awareness, vulnerability, and a biblical worldview, anyone can “fix their mind” and walk in freedom. The episode is as practical as it is heartfelt. Listeners are encouraged to embrace grace and let the truth transform their lives, one thought at a time.

“When you know the truth, the truth will set you free.” – Leslie Parrott (68:03)

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For more, check out "Bad Thoughts: A Preacher and a Shrink’s Guide to Reclaiming Your Mind" by Dr. Les Parrott & Judah Smith.

Transcript

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.

[Leslie Parrott]

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[Dr. Les Parrott]

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[Leslie Parrott]

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[Ari]

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[Angela]

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[Leslie Parrott]

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[Dr. Les Parrott]

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[Ari]

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[Dr. Les Parrott]

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[Leslie Parrott]

Dude, my work here is done.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

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[Angela]

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[Dr. Les Parrott]

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[Angela]

Hi, I'm Ang.

[Ari]

And I'm Ari.

[Angela]

And this is Girls Gone Bible. And you guys know if I'm on this side of the table that we have really important amazing guests on and today we have two people who you guys already know, doctors Les and Leslie Parrott. Thank you guys so much for coming back to time.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Ggbers I know are there frequent flyer miles?

[Angela]

Do we get that is so do.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

We get a like a free sub after we get our card check or something?

[Angela]

You A sandwich.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah.

[Angela]

We are so excited, you guys, first of all. You guys having a good day? You guys doing good?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

How you doing? I'm good. Are you?

[Ari]

Nice Donnie Wahlberg jacket. I'm loving it.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Do what I can. Yeah, do what I can.

[Leslie Parrott]

You East Coasters.

[Angela]

We are here to talk about this book. It's called Bad Thoughts, and it's written by Judah Smith. And I didn't look at it because I didn't know who it was written by, by the way.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

I didn't want you guys to see it for the first time.

[Angela]

Written by Les and Jud. And we're so excited to talk about this book with you guys today because we love talking about the mind and thoughts. Ari and I have both dealt with intrusive thoughts and OCD and unwanted thoughts, and we've struggled up here a little bit at times. Yeah. And so we're so excited. This is the perfect topic for our people.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Well, can I tell you something about the COVID of this book before we even get into the content? Because I am very proud of this. So this. You're rolling your eyes?

[Ari]

No, no, I do the microphone phone a little bit.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Oh, yeah. So on the. On the. Is this on the camera someplace? Hey, how come you guys have a.

[Ari]

Oh, you have a camera.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Okay. I'm good. Yeah, there we are. So. So this is Judah, and that's me. Right? Can you see that?

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah. Well, so my editor. Not an art director. My editor said, hey, the art department wonders if you have a profile picture that you could send us. I said, I don't have one. She said, just take one right now for a placeholder. So I literally. While we were on the phone, she was talking to me, and I did a selfie. And that's the photo that they used on the COVID And I said, hey, if you're gonna use it, I want photo credits on the back of the book. So I'm more proud of the photo credit. Cause I've never had that before on a book.

[Angela]

You are such a character, it's insane. Hang on. That's such a beautiful cover. So it's Judah's mind with all these, like, swirls and everything. And then it's basically the relationship almost between a preacher and a shrink. That's kind of the tagline, and that's the whole point.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

So Judah came to man over a decade ago, and he said he and Chelsea, his wife, came to Leslie and me, and they just said, hey, we want to do some counseling with you guys. And I said, what's the issue and he said, there's no issue. And I said, what do you mean? I'm. I'm a psychologist. I'm used to people bringing problems to me. And he said, no problems. He said, we just want to make sure there aren't any problems in the future. And I said, absolutely, let's do some work together. And so we did some marriage work and. And it was. And he'd seen, you know, some of his peers and stuff that tripped up in their efforts. And he said, I don't want to do that. And so it was preventive intervention. But as it evolved, Judah and I began to do some one on one work together. And after a while, after actually a number of years, he said, you know, this is like changing the way I think this work with you is changing the way I think. And he said, would you ever be willing to put it in a book with me? And so that's what we did. That's the result of this thing. That's why it's called A preacher and a shrinks guide to reclaiming your mind. And so I told him when we were titling this, I said, a preacher and a shrink. It sounds like at the start of a bad joke, right? But it's a preacher and a shrink, like walk into your mind. That's really what this book is about. And it's kind of, I think it's the book your brain doesn't want you to read because it's going to dismantle the toxic lies that you tell yourself. And there's five of them that we talk. We can get into this. But the whole concept is to kind of. Do you know that your toxic thoughts literally carve a br. A groove into your brain, like, and you, they just become autopilot. You don't think about them, they just happen. And so that's what we were doing our work on. And I said, hey, Judy, if you're going to do this, you're going to have to be kind of vulnerable. I mean, it's not typical for a preacher in a shrink. When you're in therapy with me, we're going to write a book and you're going to tell everybody your problems. And it's not really that, but it really is a vulnerable book. And that's how it came to be.

[Angela]

That is so cool. This is so special. What else can you tell us? First, just about the contents of the book, like how it's structured. What is your favorite part in the way that it's structured?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Well, the book we did this survey of we first came up with, you know, some of these thoughts that we'd been working on in counseling together, and we did a survey of about a thousand people and asked them how much they see this thought within their own. Thoughts are like. It's like self talk, right? It's a. It's a. It's a way of having a conversation with yourself. And it's probably the most important conversation you ever have because it never turns off. It's 24 7. It happens even while you sleep, while you dream. You just have this conversation that is ongoing. And you get to a place where you're not even conscious anymore of what.

[Leslie Parrott]

You'Re saying is always there.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

It's always there, right? Imagine if you could, before you fell asleep tonight, you could just take a little computer chip out of the back of your head and put it in your laptop and it would tabulate all the thoughts you had for the last 24 hours and simply label them as positive or negative. Imagine if that could be.

[Leslie Parrott]

Especially your self talk.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Your self talk. Which bucket would be most. Most full for you at the end of any given day? It's an interesting question, right? Well, some researchers at ucla, not very far from the studio said, let's study that. And they discovered that the vast majority. Do you remember the percentage off top of your head?

[Leslie Parrott]

92%.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Is it that high? But certainly the vast majority of our thoughts fall into the negative bucket. On average, not everybody's, but on average, that's how it is. And so anyway, that's what this book is about. So we identified these five. Very predictable, almost ubiquitous. We have these thoughts. The first one is, you know, all about. It says, take your last guilt trip and discover the road to grace. The next one is on the disease to please. The next one is on self doubt. Um, the next one's on entitlement. That's the. That's the. Probably the topic that is the most difficult to see in ourselves.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

And then the last one is all about earning credit to win God's love, which so many of us fall into that trap.

[Leslie Parrott]

So here's what I love about this, because, you know, most of us, we know our inner struggle. We overhear that conversation every minute of every day, but we feel like it's super personal. And, you know, I think. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of Henri Nouwen or Henri now, and he's a spiritual writer, but he just said that, you know, what we think is most personal to us is often the most universal thing that everybody identifies with and struggles with. And I think that's what the power of this is, that you guys took the personal stories that came out.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Right.

[Leslie Parrott]

And then they're universal. We all connect with them.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Right?

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Ari]

Can you tell us a couple of them?

[Angela]

Yeah. Can we get into actually all of them? Because I love that first one.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Guilt.

[Ari]

Yeah.

[Angela]

I mean, how often do we experience guilt?

[Ari]

Oh, yeah, we do.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah. Guilt is just a poison in our system. It really is. Because guilt, first of all, is a selfish emotion.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

It's like a toothache. When you have a toothache, you can't think of anything else. I can't. I just. I'm sorry, I can't even focus right now because my tooth hurts so bad. Right. Guilt is like that. It's self consuming. It's like taking mirrored sunglasses and taking the lenses out, flipping them around and putting them on your head and looking out at the world. And all you see is a reflection of your own needs everywhere you go. That's. That's what happens psychologically with guilt.

[Leslie Parrott]

And it's such a disguise because guilt feels like it's about the other person. Maybe we feel like we failed or wronged.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah.

[Leslie Parrott]

But honestly, it's more just about our own sense of who we are.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Leslie Parrott]

Are we perfect?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

So. So we called the first chapter, you know, take your last guilt trip and discover the road to grace. Because grace is, you know, the antidote. It's, it's. It's what. It's the reward for cleansing our system of that kind of guilt. I. I had this weird experience. Not weird, but kind of an unusual experience many years ago, as a kind of a new psychologist. I was just out of graduate school and I went to this conference. It was a serious conference on laughter. All right. Psychologists study laughter sometimes. And so it was a conference on laughter. And it was at the Disneyland Hotel. And so there's this ballroom. There must have been about a thousand psychologists in there.

[Leslie Parrott]

And it's like a real party.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah.

[Angela]

Is it just like super smart in the air?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Like, how are you doing? Well, let's sit down and talk about it. But if. If the very first speaker got up and he had kind of one message. But when we came in, there were three brightly colored pieces of cloth on each chair, and we didn't know what they were for. But he started to give this talk and he says, I'm going to teach everybody in here how to juggle. And he was a physician and he said not to juggle your schedules, your patients, literally how to juggle. But he did it with all kinds of life lessons woven into it. And the very first one I want to tell you, he said, I want you. Before we even begin, we're going to throw these usually scarves, because it's really easy to juggle scarves. They're slow. And so he said, but the very first step in learning to juggle is to take one of the pieces of cloth, hold it out at arm's length and drop it. And we were like, what? I'm going to drop it to the floor, you know, and he goes, we're not going anywhere until everybody does that. So everybody kind of let these flutter down to the floor. And then he said, ah, there. He said, don't you feel better? You just got over your first guilt free drop. Right? A guilt free drop. How many times have you wanted a guilt free drop for yourself because of whatever happened in a relationship or something that you said that you regret or whatever it is? That's what grace is. Kind of a, kind of a, a flippant way of saying that's what grace is about. A guilt free drop. So that's, that's the root. That's kind of the goal of understanding this. By the way, the Bible. Do you know who said, let your conscience be your guide? Do you know where that's.

[Angela]

No, but I should.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

You think it was the Apostle Paul?

[Angela]

Probably.

[Ari]

Yeah, I was going to say Paul.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah.

[Ari]

So it sounds smart.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Well, it's not so smart because it was Jiminy Cricket. Oh, my gosh. But so many people think. So many people think that's from the Bible or something. Right. Let your conscience be your guide. But it's not. It's from Disneyland.

[Angela]

Yeah. God would probably say, let the Holy Spirit be your guide. Right?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah. And the, the, the whole. We don't come pretty packaged with what to feel guilty about. We learn what to feel guilty about.

[Leslie Parrott]

It's a human experience from the church.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

We were raised in or the home we were raised in or what our parents said to us. Yeah.

[Leslie Parrott]

I might feel guilty about being late and you might not.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Right, right.

[Leslie Parrott]

I mean, that's just.

[Angela]

That's literally us.

[Ari]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I dwelled for the whole episode. I couldn't even function because I was 30 minutes late on accident.

[Angela]

Whereas I could, I could, I could be a couple, like 15.

[Ari]

She knows how to like. But you do know how to, like, let go where I have a really hard time of letting go. I will dwell for weeks. Weeks.

[Leslie Parrott]

Yeah.

[Ari]

I've gotten so much better.

[Leslie Parrott]

It can be consuming.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Ari]

Yeah.

[Angela]

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[Leslie Parrott]

Similar to guilt, but different.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

There's an alternative. And scripture calls it godly sorrow. And guilt is all about the past and godly sorrow is about the future, how things are going to be different. Right. And instead of punishing yourself, Godly sorrow propels you to be a better person. And, and guilt is.

[Leslie Parrott]

Is self absorbed. I am not what I should be. Whereas godly sorrow is about the other person that's been offended. Right. I want to set this right for you. With you. It's about you, not me.

[Angela]

Well, this is so interesting because guilt is so many negative emotions are just so selfish. Like guilt is so selfish. I love what you said about how when you feel guilty about something, it actually doesn't even have anything to do with like feeling sorry for the other person. You've just turned inward and now you're hating yourself because you didn't match up to what you hoped you would.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah, but it's not mature.

[Ari]

It's not.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

It's not health giving. Yeah, my favorite verse Verse. I think in all of scripture it's Romans 8. There's therefore now no condemnation. For who? Those of us that love Jesus. Right. And no condemnation. That's guilt is all self condemnation, self punishment.

[Leslie Parrott]

And to answer your question, you shouldn't feel guilty for feeling guilty.

[Ari]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Leslie Parrott]

It's just that you should feel like there's a window of grace I can step out of.

[Ari]

Yeah, right. Like being in therapy. Therapy. I. I had so much guilt and going back to when I'm a child, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is why I feel this way. And it just, it's insane. Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

But that's why I say guilt is homegrown. Right. Your conscience.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Comes programmed with whatever was put into it. It's not from the Holy Spirit, it's not from God. Right. And so we learn what to feel guilty about. And some of the things that we feel guilty about are the result of false guilt. It's not true. You shouldn't be feeling guilty about some things that you're feeling guilty about. So. Yeah. So that's what this whole first chapter is about, is to free yourself from that self condemnation.

[Leslie Parrott]

And because he's stepping into grace.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yes.

[Angela]

I feel like I have in the past because I have really overcome like guilty conscience. And mine also, both of ours comes from like childhood stuff. And I feel like you guys would know this oftentimes that's bred and born in an environment of like a blame system. Like your parents blame you, your siblings blame you, everyone's just blaming each other. So you learn to just feel guilty all the time. And I think for me, the past, you know, however many years of my life until I started doing this work, I would, it would make me feel good about myself to feel guilty, you know, and.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Whereas I feel like it's righteous or something.

[Angela]

Yeah. And like I'm. Oh, I'm a good per. I felt that for so long, like I'm a better person. I've done something that's hurt someone. But I'm a good person because I'm beating myself up so badly. So it's almost like this self protecting thing. Whereas you meet Jesus and then he allows you to the gift of grace where you realize like what you said, no condemnation, you don't. Feeling guilty does nothing for anybody.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Right.

[Angela]

It doesn't fix anything for you or the other person. So I love that we talk about.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

That and you hold on to it long enough, it petrifies, it turns into shame. Yeah. So you don't just feel guilty about something You've done. You feel guilty about who you are and that's really toxic.

[Angela]

Oh, let's get free from guilt. That's amazing.

[Ari]

Do you think that guilt and obsessive compulsive thinking are the connection?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Leslie Parrott]

Yeah. Because you know that OCD is complex, but there is a facet of it that is if I just do it perfectly, everything will be okay. Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Right.

[Ari]

Which God heals. Because I growing up had major obsessive compulsive thinking to the point where like I was so tormented in my mind replay situations over and over. Lived with an immense, yet ruminate all day, immense amount of guilt. And I have been healed so much from that where I never thought I would be healed. I thought I'd have to live with this for the rest of my life and be on medication. Yeah, yeah.

[Leslie Parrott]

Beautiful testimony.

[Ari]

Yeah, yeah. Of grace. Of grace, yeah.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

So that's the first bad thought, you know, is that this idea of. Of thinking that guilt is something that I need to carry around so that.

[Angela]

Just freed so many people because I think we all, yeah. Have a misconception about what guilt is and yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

No condemnation for those of us that are in Christ Jesus. So the second one is about the disease to please. Have you ever suffered from the disease to please?

[Angela]

Have you ever been a people pleaser? Yes.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

So, yes, the disease to please. The disease to please.

[Angela]

I think I have all of those.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

We all do. That's the truth. We do to some degree or another. But the disease to please is all about being we. We all want to be accepted. We all want to be loved. And so.

[Ari]

It'S open enrollment, that lovely time of the year when health insurance companies are hoping we just hit renew without thinking twice. Honestly, navigating health insurance can feel like a full time job. It's so overwhelming. The fine print, the random fees, the surprise. This is out of the network bills. It leaves you stressed and feeling so taken advant of. That's why we love crowd health. It's a totally different approach for people who don't want to stay stuck in a broken system. Instead of dealing with insurance companies, you join a community that funds each other's medical bills directly. No middlemen, no networks. You get access to bill negotiators, low cost prescription and lab tools, and doctors vetted by crowd health. And if something major happens, you pay the first 500 and then crowd comes together to help help with the rest. It feels like going back to when health care was simple, affordable and human. What we love is a sense of agency. It Feels good to know you're in a community that is there to support you and that you're supporting other people, too. It's a completely different way to approach health care. And honestly, it just makes sense. Join crowd health to get started today for 99. For your first three months, using code GGB at join crowd health dot com. That's joincrowdhealth.com code GGB. Crowd health is not insurance. Opt out. Take your power back. Join CrowdHealth.com to do anything that would.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Risk that to be rejected by somebody is scary. And so, in fact, it was the very first thing that Jude and I, when we got into this work, that he was just. He couldn't say no. He just could not set a boundary. He couldn't say no to anybody.

[Leslie Parrott]

And he would be the first to admit that.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Oh, yes. Well, he admits it in this book, for sure. And, you know, so we work on curing his disease to please. But what happens is when we have this disease to please, we are no longer authentic. We're living in Pleasantville. Everything's just fine. And we bury everything that's negative. And anything that is, you know, possibly going to cause friction, we just want to kind of sweep that away and just keep it pleasant. And that you can't have an authentic relationship because it's only this deep. And so, you know, we've talked before about how conflict is the price we pay for a deeper relationship. And conflict is something that people that suffer from this disease to please abhor. Right? Yeah.

[Leslie Parrott]

And I think we've also talked a little bit about the power of attachment styles. And when you're anxious about attachment, it feels like, if I displease you, I will lose you.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Wow.

[Leslie Parrott]

Yeah.

[Angela]

And.

[Leslie Parrott]

And that's part of what makes us suffer from this disease.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

We have to be, you know, to have a real relationship, there has to be vulnerability. And vulnerability sometimes is scary to the other person because you're saying stuff that they don't want to hear. And if you suffer from the disease, the police, you don't do that. What do you do? You wear a mask. You become something that you're not. And so you act like everything's good when it really isn't. And so it just becomes a pseudo relationship, a false relationship.

[Leslie Parrott]

I love this because there is a story, a parable Jesus told about the disease to please. They're the brothers. And the dad asked two brothers, will you do this assignment for me? And one of them said, absolutely, I'll do it. And the other one said, nope, not going to do it. But the brother that said no, thought about it later, went back and did it. And the brother that said yes out of a desire, reflexive desire to please, just didn't follow through because too many yeses didn't come from authenticity.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Leslie Parrott]

And then Jesus said, who pleased the Father?

[Angela]

Right.

[Leslie Parrott]

And I think that's what happens to us.

[Angela]

You know, we.

[Leslie Parrott]

We just reflexively want to say the right thing, but our heart might not be in it, we might not be capable of it. And so it doesn't turn out to be a genuine, you know, act of love.

[Angela]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Every relationship that we have starts at a, a, at a really surface level. Just when we're getting to know somebody. Right. And it's impression management. We're trying to look a certain way, come across in a way that they'll like us. Right.

[Leslie Parrott]

It's shallow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

It's very shallow.

[Leslie Parrott]

Kind of pseudo.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Pseudo, yes. And hey, how you doing? It's like the conversation you might have with somebody in the church foyer, you know, that you just see every once in a while. How you doing? Oh, great. Hey, how's that golf game going? Oh, it's fantastic. How about you? Oh, it's good. We ought to go together sometime. Yeah, let's do that. Right? Okay. See you, man. Right, that's it. Right? That's just. It's just an inch deep. There's nothing to it.

[Ari]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

But let's say that same person, if he got in a car and drove from Los Angeles to Boston starting tonight, how long would it stay at that pseudo relationship? Not if you're real. Yeah, right. If you have the disease to please, it stays there clear across the whole country. Right. But eventually, if you're a real person, you go, hey, I'm not crazy about this music that we're listening to. Can I change the channel? You know, or. Hey, do you mind if I drive for a little while? Because, you know, whatever. You were so self conscious about how you were driving last night. Do you have. You have the disease to please when it comes to driving your car, don't you?

[Angela]

Yeah, because I know how I drive in LA and it's tough and I felt bad.

[Leslie Parrott]

You've never ridden with my husband.

[Angela]

I know you did.

[Ari]

It's because we all flinch when we're in cars. So we go like this.

[Angela]

Ari lives, she drives over curbs. Ari closes her eyes when I drive and has made me very insecure about my driving.

[Ari]

I, like, lose years off my life every time I get in a car with her.

[Leslie Parrott]

Is that why you met here at the studio today?

[Angela]

Oh, no, we'll drive together. I can't.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

So pseudo relationship. If you're together long enough and you start to get real, things get a little chaotic. Right. And it feels like, oh, wow, what's going to happen here? This is like, this is awkward. This is. There's disequilibrium here and there's no balance.

[Leslie Parrott]

We don't see this theological issue. I could be political perspective or we don't. We don't want the same. We don't want to stop at the same place for food, whatever it is.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

There's going to be something that we don't see eye to eye on. Okay. And that, that little bit of chaos gets resolved. Generally when one or the other people in the relationship kind of empties themselves of their need to change that person, they go, okay, I'm not crazy about going to Mexican food, but if that's what you want, I can do that. Let's do it. Right. I'm going to empty my need to go to Italian food or whatever. You know, I'm silly illustration.

[Ari]

Is that bad?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

No.

[Ari]

Oh, that's not people pleasing, right?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Well, it depends if. If that's your lifestyle of doing that where you never want to exert your own desire and your own attitude or your own views or whatever, that's a problem. That's the disease to please.

[Ari]

Okay.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Right.

[Leslie Parrott]

I'm glad you made that decision.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah, that's a really good.

[Leslie Parrott]

That's not what he's talking.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

That's a great clarification. Yeah. What I'm talking about is, is in order to get to a deep relationship, there has to be some sense of emptying yourself to change the other person.

[Leslie Parrott]

But you had to risk being authentic for the chaos to even reveal.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

And by the way, sometimes the things that we empty ourselves of, our need to change in another person. Like, just think of an important relationship to you right now. Everybody that's listening to us think of an important relationship. There's something that you probably are thinking, man, I wish they would do this differently. Right. If you emptied yourself of your need to change that in them, if you offered them a little grace and just went, I'm not going to say anything about it. How they do xyz, more often than not, that thing that irritates you has the opportunity to literally become the thing that endears you to them.

[Angela]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

It's a weird psychological phenomenon and spiritual.

[Leslie Parrott]

I think there's, there's this, I think a mystical grace component to it because when you accept someone right where they are with their differences from you, their flaws, and you're offering grace, and that grace is transforming. It is, Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

I have a silly illustration of this that just came to mind. I haven't thought about this for a long time. When we first got married, Leslie, I remember I came into the kitchen and she was cutting carrots. And the way that she was cutting the carrots just was.

[Leslie Parrott]

I'm left handed.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

I don't.

[Ari]

I am too.

[Leslie Parrott]

I don't do things. Things the normal way. Right.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

But it just looked like, oh, man, you're gonna. I just said you're gonna, you know, cut yourself the way you're cutting carrots like that. You need to do it this way. Like, I'm teaching her how to cut.

[Ari]

This is literally me and you.

[Angela]

I know.

[Ari]

It's actually hilarious. She would literally be like, I need to show you how to cut the carrots.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

And Leslie wants to please me, so she cuts carrots the way. And she's receptive. But then I come back a week later and she's cutting carrots their same old way.

[Leslie Parrott]

You know, Would want to do it for you while you were watching. But later I wouldn't be thinking about.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

It, just revert back to whatever. And. And so anyway, this went on for a while and finally I just kind of got to a place where I just went, hey, that's just how she cuts carrots, you know, that's just. I'm going to empty myself. I didn't consciously say that, but you know what I mean. And the strange thing is that somewhere in the course of our marriage, it's almost like I would be disappointed if she wasn't cutting carrots her way. You know what I mean? Like, that's how my Leslie cuts carrots. You know, it's just a silly illustration.

[Ari]

That's how my cuts carrots. No, we do have things like that, though.

[Angela]

We do. For example, can I say one, my biggest pet peeve in the world. Not my biggest pet peeve, but yeah, I guess was always. When I first met Ari, I couldn't understand why it was. And we practically lived together for the first two years that we were friends until I moved. Ari opens like ketchup or honey or something, but, like, just like leaves it there and doesn't put the top back on. And I remember it's way more convenient now. It's so convenient. And when I. When I first became friends with her, I. It would make me, like, lose my mind. And I would tell her she would tweak out, you know? And it's not even my house. It's not even my house. And I'd be like, you can't do this. Like, you can't do this. And I'm not even kidding. Over time. I was just at our house yesterday.

[Leslie Parrott]

Or.

[Angela]

Yeah, I stayed there last night. I saw something open on the counter when I got home at your house at midnight. And I go, I love her so much.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

I literally go, I love her so much.

[Leslie Parrott]

And kind of be disappointed if it wasn't.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah.

[Ari]

So funny.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Here's my new thing with Leslie.

[Angela]

What is it?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

You're going to be surprised. Probably. So we have dark. You've been in our home. We have dark wooden floors and.

[Leslie Parrott]

Well, I don't think this is going to surprise you. This.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

This blonde hair.

[Angela]

Oh.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Can be everywhere.

[Leslie Parrott]

I shed. Like.

[Angela]

I'm a shame.

[Leslie Parrott]

Yeah. You know.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

But I got a. I got a. What's the name of that?

[Angela]

Dyson.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

I got.

[Ari]

Dyson has changed.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

The one with the light on it.

[Angela]

Yes, with the light on it.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

With the light on it.

[Angela]

See? Everything.

[Leslie Parrott]

Okay, wait, you're talking about the hairstyles, which is good, but he's talking about a vacuum.

[Ari]

You're talking about a vacuum. Okay, what she talking about? He said the faucet bangs.

[Angela]

I mean, come on.

[Leslie Parrott]

You bought me a Dyson?

[Angela]

Ariel, you think who has his Dyson?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

It's like a thing to cut your hair?

[Leslie Parrott]

No, it's like a beautiful style Briar curl or two.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

I'm out of my depth at this point. I don't know.

[Angela]

He's Dyson.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Okay. All I know is that when we got this vacuum a month ago and it has this light, I'm like, man, you need to brush your hair more because I love vacuuming up your.

[Angela]

Wait, that's so real, though.

[Leslie Parrott]

Try not to be satisfied with that. What's going on?

[Ari]

Lord, please bring me someone that like.

[Angela]

Takes joy in that.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

That is really.

[Angela]

That's sweet. Well, John told me recently. His.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

He.

[Angela]

He told me recently that something that's been really endearing for him because I moved and so I got all new furniture, but I'm somebody who. I have to have a piece of furniture and then let it sit in my house for a couple days. And then 9 out of 10 times I'll return it. And so that's. And he finds this material. So at first, at first he was starting to get a little bit because I'd be like, baby, can you please come? Like, so sorry. It's a big box and can you come Bring it to UPS and send it back for me. And the first couple of times he's like, what is like trying to be like, you don't need to do that. You don't need to try out that. Just see if you like it on the website and you don't need to like audition it in your home. And I'm like, yes, I do. I have to know if it fits in the space. And he told me recently he was talking to his friend and was like, yeah, Angela does a lot of weird things. Like, for example, she loves buying furniture and then returning it in two days. And I have to walk up her stairs, box it up for her, walk it downstairs, and then pay $80 to ship it out for her. And he's like. And I do it with a smile on my face because it's just like, that's her. That is beautiful.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

I know.

[Angela]

Oh my gosh, she's perfect.

[Ari]

Oh my God, that is sweet.

[Angela]

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[Leslie Parrott]

It's true, though, when we empty ourselves of our need to change each other, which I think is a deep. I don't think you can do it without the holy spirit.

[Angela]

I was about to say.

[Leslie Parrott]

Yeah, that moves us into genuine, genuine.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Relationship where you can, like, just relax. You can just. It's like sitting in a big leather easy chair. It's just like, like, this is so comfortable to be in this relationship right now because I can say what's on my mind. I don't have to be afraid of being judged. I know you're going to accept me even if it comes out the wrong way. And that's an incredible safe space to be in. But you can't get there via the disease to please.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Leslie Parrott]

Because you never risk the authenticity to be accepted in the worst moment.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

So people have to see your dark side.

[Leslie Parrott]

Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

People have to see, you know, parts of you that you don't want them to see in order for you to really be loved. Otherwise, you're just wearing a mask all over the place and everybody's just loving the impression that you give.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

So great. Yeah. So that's the second chapter. Cure the disease to please and cultivate authentic relationships. So, all right, so that's the first one. Guilt. Second one disease to please. You want to keep going on this?

[Angela]

Absolutely. This is perfect.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

All right.

[Angela]

Come on.

[Ari]

I could spend hours on each one, like, with examples. We should try to give examples in them.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Ari]

Because for me, it helps me. Even though everyone probably understands sometimes.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

You know what you could do?

[Ari]

Read the book.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah, you could read the book. She read the book. She read the book.

[Leslie Parrott]

Penny's picturing your capless. Your capless containers and your boxed up furniture.

[Angela]

Oh, yeah.

[Leslie Parrott]

Such good examples that.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah, you're right.

[Angela]

We do give what I.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

So chapter three is extinguish self doubt and rekindle your courage. Extinguish self doubt.

[Ari]

Give us an example.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

So, self doubt. Well, have you ever doubted yourself? Yeah, we all do, right? Yeah. And we have feelings of insecurity and. And helplessness and like, I don't think I can. There's nothing. What. What can I do? Right. And we lose all sense of our courage. Have you ever heard the name Martin Seligman? He's a psychologist, probably the most influential living psychologist these days.

[Leslie Parrott]

And like the president for a while of the American Psychological association, that kind of influence.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Big, big time psychologist, University of Pennsylvania. But just as a graduate student, he did this groundbreaking study that sounds a little cruel, but it's. I'll explain. It's not. But it had to do with some dogs. And during the time you've heard of B.F. skinner behaviorism, is that. No, no, no.

[Angela]

We probably don't know most of the people you guys know, so I wish we do so.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

But B.F. skinner came up with this whole thing called behaviorism and kind of a philosophy about how people learn to. To be who they are by getting reinforcement.

[Leslie Parrott]

Reward or reinforcement. You tend to do that thing more.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah, yeah. So anyway, that was really popular in the 70s. Martin Seligman kind of came through graduate school at that time. And so he was doing this experiment with these dogs on behaviorism and rewards and so forth. And so he had this thing called a shuttle box. It was a. Just a box that the. The dog would be in with a little partition. And what he was doing was have the dog sit on this side of the shuttle box. And you know how, like, sometimes when you touch a doorknob on a winter day, it can shock you? Pretty mild shock, but enough that you want to avoid it. He would have a little metal plate in the bottom, and their little paws would feel that level of a shock. And most dogs just jump over the little barrier and go to the other side. So all he was doing was measuring how many trials did it take for him to do that, that for the dog.

[Leslie Parrott]

Oh, okay, yeah, Now I won't get the shock.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Right. And then they would associate it with a buzzer or a bell or something like that. And then even without a shock, just hearing the bell, they would go over. It's just a kind of standard psychological study. But in the course of the study, he discovered there was a handful of dogs that weren't jumping over the barrier. 3, 4, 10, 12 trials. They would just sit down and take the shock again and again. And he was like, could not understand what's wrong with these dogs. And it wasn't until another experimenter kind of entered the scene and said, oh, Marty. He said, these dogs were used in an experiment a while ago where they couldn't jump over the barrier. They weren't allowed to jump over the barrier. It was for a different whole different study. And what he realized is these dogs had fallen victim to what he calls learned helplessness. Learned helplessness. And this was a revolutionary thought that we can learn to be helpless. And if you think about it, another example, toward the end of World War II, in concentration camps, what they discovered, they went in to rescue all these prisoners that, you know, were just in dire straits. And what they realized is they could have easily walked out of the camps at that stage, but they didn't because they just learned you can't escape. Right. Learned helplessness. So those are physical examples, but we do that in our head all the time. And we. Yeah, to ourselves. That's why it's a toxic thought, is that. And it dismantles our capacity to have courage in our lives because, oh, nobody in my family's ever gone to college, so I can't go to college. You know, we just put perimeters on ourselves and think it's impossible to do when it's not. We've just learned to be helpless because.

[Leslie Parrott]

We feel like something's wrong with us. It will never change.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Right.

[Leslie Parrott]

We take it personally.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah. And if you take something personally, there's three things. And this goes to depression, too, by the way. This is the making of clinical depression. You take something personal, you believe it's pervasive and it's permanent. You believe those three things, you're going to get depressed. Something happens, you fail an exam. Well, it's because I'm an idiot. I'm stupid. All right? That's step one towards depression.

[Leslie Parrott]

Which is really different than saying, oh, you know, I didn't have a chance to study, life didn't allow me enough time. I can make a different choice. I can have a different result.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Right.

[Leslie Parrott]

That would be a very different choice.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Right. Or that the test was incredibly hard and the professor's unfair even, or whatever. Right. But you internalize it, you personalize it, and then that it's pervasive. In other words, I think I failed this exam. It's going to impact everything in my life. I'm not going to pass this course. If I don't pass this course, I'm going to lose my scholarship. If I don't have my scholarship, I'll never be able to finish college. Whatever it is. You just extrapolate and make this. Yes. You just spiral out of control, personal, pervasive, and then it's permanent. It's always going to be this way. There's nothing I can do about it. If you buy into Those three beliefs, you have the makings for clinical depression if you hold on to them. Right. And we all do those to some degree, some of the time. But if you have that pattern. And that's what I talk about.

[Leslie Parrott]

Self doubt.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Exactly. Yeah. You just, you won't have courage to do much of anything.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Ari]

So what's the antidote to that?

[Angela]

How do you break out of it?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Well, the real solution is, is to change your thinking. Right. That's what this book is all about. And to change, to, to reroute the grooves and so you no longer think of things as personal or pervasive or permanent. So you say to yourself, just like Leslie was saying, hey, I just didn't have what it took to study for this exam. It doesn't mean I'm a failure. Yeah, I failed the exam. I feel badly about that, but doesn't mean I'm an idiot.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Okay, so I climb out of that one and it's not. Not pervasive. Yeah. If I keep failing, I'm going to have a real problem. But just because I failed one exam doesn't mean it's the end of the world. I can keep going. Right. It's the self talk. It's just what we're feeding ourselves.

[Leslie Parrott]

And so you, you lean into optimism. But the Apostle Paul called it hope. Right. I mean, that's what we call it in the Bible. Right. It's just not allowing that, that script of self doubt to become your true truth.

[Angela]

Yeah, absolutely. And bringing every single one of those thoughts. 2nd Corinthians 10:5 says you demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God and you take every thought captive.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

That's it.

[Angela]

And make it obedient to Christ. And so literally taking, doing everything that you just said in the context of prayer time, bringing it to Jesus and having those conversations with the Holy Spirit and being like, lord, I'm coming out of agreement with these lies. Like, I'm done believing these limiting, restricting beliefs that I am this way because of my family, so I'll never be this X, Y, Z. And just like absolutely eradicating all of those lies and saying, I'm not like. And I think what you're alluding to also is like, awareness is curative. Like to be aware of what's going on in your mind. Because you mentioned this earlier, I think where like you have so many thoughts and almost all of them are negative and you're not even aware of what you're thinking and you have this script going on in your head and it's been your whole life. So you don't even think to challenge what's happening in your own mind. And I think what's been pivotal for me personally, personally is just being like, noticing a thought and being like, I don't have to agree with that, right? That doesn't have to be true. Take it captive enough and like, yeah, so that's really profound. Grand Canyon University is an affordable, private Christian university in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona, offering over 360 academic programs informed by industry and student learning outcomes. In addition to federal grants and aid, GCU's on campus students received approximately 190 students $6 million in scholarships in 2024. On average, undergraduate students graduate with approximately $6,200 less federal and private loan debt than students at private non profit four year universities. And many have the opportunity to graduate in less than four years. One of the country's largest universities, GCU is ranked among the top 25 college campuses in America. Visit GCU Edu myoffer to see what scholarships you may qualify for. Admissible high school seniors and transfer students can schedule a complimen visit from anywhere in the country. Find your purpose at gcu. Private, Christian, affordable. Visit gcu Edu my offer.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

You know that we've talked on another occasion about this class lastly, and I used to teach on relationships and we had this sentence that we would start the class with. If you try to build a relationship with somebody else before you've done the difficult work of getting whole on your own own, all your relationships become an attempt to complete yourself. The last time we taught that class, a student came up to me and I was kind of at the podium and kind of getting my computer set up and he goes, hey, Dr. Parrott, he said that. Can I talk to you for a second? I said, yeah. He said, you know that last lecture you gave a week ago, he said, that was really meaningful to me. I said, hey, thanks man, really appreciate that. He goes, no, no, no, you have no idea what this meant to me. He said, if you understood the home that I grew up, up in and how I've kind of been beaten down and, and I, I lost like courage. Like I'm barely, you know, to be here on this campus has been a huge thing for me. And he's just going on, he's telling his story and he goes, that sentence that you gave me, he says, it's like, it's like really revolutionary for me. And I said, man, I've never had a compliment like this on a lecture before this is. Thank you for sharing that. He goes, can I show something to you? I said, yeah, what? And he lifted up his T shirt and he had this sentence tattooed on his rib cage. I kind of wanted to say, hey, I have better things than that to say, hold on, before you tattoo stuff. But doesn't that speak volumes about what some of us need? Like we don't have to tattoo it on our skin, but we need that tattooed on our soul and our brain to be released from that so we can regain our courage.

[Angela]

Right.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

And find that capacity to not surrender to self doubt, to learned helplessness.

[Ari]

Wow.

[Angela]

Wow. The learned helplessness is crazy. I can't imagine how many people. Would you also kind of equate that to victim mentality a little bit? Would that be similar?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

That's actually the next one. That's a great, that's a great setup to the next one is we call it step off your high horse horse and walk in another shoes. And this is all about entitlement.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

And when we were writing the book, we really debated on whether to include this because what we found, you know, we have this little thing where we surveyed people and it, and it shows, you know, which one is, you know, most, you know, troublesome to you and so forth. And you see there's, you know, it shows the percentage of everybody and then we get to entitlement, whatever it is, is. And it's like, just like, yeah, here it is 12%, whereas, you know, 40 and 50% say, you know, needy talk and unworthy talk and insecure talk. Entitlement. Not many of us admit to that. But this is that idea of feeling like life owes me. Life should be fair. Well, guess what, friends? Life is not fair. Not for you and not for anybody else. And if you think it's supposed to be fair for you in spite of anybody else's problem, problems, you're walking down the pathway of entitlement. Yeah, and that's a toxic thought. Entitlement is. I wish we could pass laws in Congress against it. Do you know, it's just not a healthy thing at all. And mostly it dismantles our capacity to see somebody else's perspective. Think about that. That, you know, now we all have this little thing in tight. You know, we were talking earlier about airlines and accumulating miles and all that stuff. And you get status and, and you get to board the plane first or get whatever. And when you travel a lot and you are accustomed to having, oh, I get to go on the plane first.

[Angela]

Right.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

If you Don't. Well, what's. What's going on around here? I need to speak to the manager. You know what I mean? You get that kind of situation of entitlement we all have that I'm talking about, though. The person that just has a groove in their brain and they can't seem to get out of it because life owes them something.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Leslie Parrott]

I think this is where faith can be such a gift.

[Angela]

Totally.

[Leslie Parrott]

You know, like the story of Joseph in the Old Testament is so profound to me that he's able to say, you meant it for my harm, but God meant it for my good. And if you can refocus even on the thing that you thought thought would be fair and that you would just deserve in life, and it's not happening, and you can say, even if I'm right, I should. Shouldn't have been treated this way. I'm gonna trust underneath it is God's love.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Ari]

Yeah.

[Leslie Parrott]

God means it for my good will, work it for my good. And it just takes you out of that place where you act the victim. Instead, you can say, you know, I'm gonna receive whatever the gift is you have for me in this.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Leslie Parrott]

And choose this. But where's the gift?

[Ari]

Because entitlement just leads to. To a hole of depression, Right. Because you're like, I need this. I should have this. And then you just sink right. Where if you change that thought, you actually. It gets you through. Right?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah. And let's do a little thought exercise. What would make you happy? Like, if you could do something.

[Leslie Parrott]

If you could push a magic button.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Kind of thing, like later this afternoon, you're just like, you had an hour to make yourself happy. What are you gonna do? Are you gonna watch, you know, a favorite TV show? Play a video game?

[Angela]

Scroll.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Doom.

[Leslie Parrott]

Scroll.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah, that's fun. You know, when we. When we think about what will make us happy, we think about. I want some ice cream.

[Ari]

Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

I'm gonna get some Ben and Jerry's. I'm gonna. Whatever. The thing is shopping.

[Angela]

Shopping is a good idea.

[Leslie Parrott]

Treats.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Vacuum. Vacuuming. Hair off the floor. Chocolate souffle.

[Ari]

Souffle at the Polo Lounge.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Hey, it's getting personal now. But, you know, we think about indulgences, finding pleasure in something that's going to make us happy. But there was another interesting study where they had people do exactly that and then a little splurge, indulgence, whatever it is that would make them happy. They spent an hour doing that, and then they did another day and did that same hour. But now you're going to add value to somebody else's life. That means being generous doesn't mean you have to necessarily spend money, but you're going to add value to somebody else's life. Volunteer your time to help somebody. Maybe it's just standing at and opening up the door for a bunch of people and just like being whatever the thing is. But add value really does make you.

[Ari]

Happy when you do those things.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Well, exponentially. So the experimenters found when we did the thing that we thought would make us happy, it was very temporary.

[Leslie Parrott]

There's a little hit.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah, a little dopamine.

[Leslie Parrott]

Hit the percentage.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

But when you're generous, when you're. When you're actually considering other people's needs and trying to meet those needs, your. Your kindness is. I coming down here on the flight yesterday, we were talking about miles again. I don't want to keep coming back to this, but because of our miles on Alaska, they come by and they give you these special little chocolates. All right. But you're sitting around other people. It's the weirdest thing because not everybody.

[Angela]

Gets the chocolate exclusive.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

It feels crazy. Yeah. Yes. And so there was this young woman that was sitting on the other side of us, and I talked to her earlier, and she was a. A PhD student at the University of Washington, and she. I saw her reading a textbook and. Did. Did you see me do this?

[Leslie Parrott]

Yeah, I saw you do it. You gave away my chocolate?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

I did.

[Leslie Parrott]

Which I knew I wasn't going to want.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

I knew you would need it, and.

[Leslie Parrott]

I didn't think to offer it he.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Something else. I ate mine and I said, hey, would you like this one? But I know it was so.

[Leslie Parrott]

It made her.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

She said, really? Oh, she was so cute. But it kind of made me feel good. I know we didn't talk about it, but you know what I mean?

[Leslie Parrott]

Better than eating your own.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

It did, actually. That's a great illustration.

[Leslie Parrott]

It's so genuine.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah. We should have put that in the book. Yeah.

[Ari]

I can't believe you're saying this, because I would say I'm in a little bit of a. What is it called? Entitlement with my singleness right now. You know, I've been having a couple moments here and there being like, I.

[Angela]

Should be in a relationship.

[Ari]

I should be like, it's time. And it's. It's made me sink into a depression. And then I do fleeting things like doom scroll and disassociate and do these things. And I just said on the phone last night, out to one of my girlfriends, I said I think I need. I think I know what I need to do to. To gain real happiness. I need to go help kids again. Because that's the one thing that fulfills me. Like helping kids.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Right.

[Ari]

And I can't believe you're saying so.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

[Leslie Parrott]

You really had that discernment. It's huge.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Well, pleasure versus generosity.

[Ari]

Yeah. Great.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

We don't. But. But that's. If you're looking for the antidote to. To entitle. That's what it is. Start to give your life away.

[Ari]

Yes.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

And those are the happiest people on the planet.

[Ari]

Get you through your depression.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah.

[Ari]

And you take the focus off yourself. Got me through all of my hard times. It's insane. Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah. Oh, man, your Boston accent really came out on that. Hard times.

[Ari]

Did I say that? Like that is so lovable.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

I like it.

[Angela]

It's my favorite thing about her.

[Ari]

It's. It's gotta be the worst accent of all time, though, right?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

So one more.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

How's our time? You want to get to one more?

[Angela]

Yeah, let's do this last one.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

All right. So we've talked about guilt. We've talked about the disease to please. And we've talked about self doubt and entitlement. The last one is, in my opinion, the most important one. It's the title is quit earning credit with God and receive his gift of love. And if you don't get this one right, the rest are pretty difficult.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Because ultimately our love is not earned. And it's not from somebody else, it's from God.

[Ari]

Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

And when you have that, all the other ones get a whole lot easier. So the problem is, so many of us think I'm not worthy. I need to do something to prove. I haven't used this illustration for a long time, but I remember I was at a hotel in Chicago once, and I was speaking and I had this little break and I was getting a bite to eat. And through the glass partition in the restaurant, I could see the swimming pool. And I saw this scenario played out where there was this businessman, and he was in his suit, but you could tell he brought his little boy along on the trip. And his boy's splash around the pool. He gets out of the pool, and the dad's sitting there reading the Chicago Tribune or something. And the kid gets out of the pool. He stands on the edge of the pool and he looks at his dad. Do you know what he says? Daddy, Daddy, watch me. Watch me. And he jumped. Father pulls down the paper he jumps in. Hey, that's great. Good jump, son. Back to it. You know what the kid did next? Got out of the pool, went to the exact same place. Know what he said to his dad?

[Angela]

Hey, dad, watch me.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Daddy, Daddy, watch me, watch me.

[Angela]

Kids do that, don't they?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Exactly right. Hey, that's a good jump. Way to go. And he. And I just saw this. He did that several times, you know, And I just thought, how many times do we do that in our own spiritual walk with God? Father, Father, watch this. This is going to be good. I'm really going to get some credit for this one. Look how I'm setting my needs aside here, right? You're going to really give me some credit here, right? This is like extra credit. Right? And we really want to earn that from God. And of course, God's never asked us for that.

[Ari]

Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

The love is given. That's. That's just. Just. It's just there.

[Leslie Parrott]

Not achieved.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Nice.

[Angela]

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[Dr. Les Parrott]

Nice.

[Leslie Parrott]

I mean, it's not. God's love is not connected to our performance. Well, yeah, we sometimes feel God's love more when we think we've done a good job. Nothing has changed if we've done the worst day. God's love hasn't changed.

[Angela]

Wow. You know, thank you for saying that.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

I have, I have a friend and he's. He's in heaven now, but he was one of my mentors. His name was Gary Smalley. And Gary, when we would speak together, I remember at the Rose Garden in Portland, big arena, and we were speaking to a bunch of folks and he got up on the very first night of the conference and he had a hundred dollar bill. And he says, who wants the hundred dollar bill? The place goes, no, I want it. You know, and. And I said, he said, I'm going to give this to somebody in just a few minutes, but I. I want to do something first. And he took the dollar bill and he crumbled it up in his hand and he says, it's all crumbled up. Who wants it now? I still want it. Yeah, I'll take it. You know, throw it to me. And he goes, hold on, I'm not done. And he put it on the, on the ground and he put his foot on it and he's smashing it in like that. And he pulls it up. Does anybody still want it? Yeah, we all want it. And then he spits on it and he puts it back on the ground and does anybody still want. Yes, I'll still take the $100 bill. Right? And he said, that's just like your heavenly father. He wants you to.

[Leslie Parrott]

Because your value hasn't changed.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Your value hasn't changed.

[Ari]

Thank you for saying that. Because one of the biggest things, even as we're on tour and asking people, we said to the audience, we were like, how many of you feel like God is mad at you? And mostly everyone raised their hand, ache.

[Angela]

Something we talk about a lot.

[Ari]

And I can even relate to that, you know, that condemning voice of, oh my gosh, I didn't read my Bible enough today. Are you mad at me? I mean, I said three times last time, I was like, I'm sorry, Jesus. And while it's good to have the fear of God, it's also can be very unhealthy when you constantly feel condemned in your mind. You have this voice in your mind that's like, he's mad. He's mad. Did I say the wrong thing? It's like no way to live. And I feel like so many people are living that way. Way. Like I have to be this perfect person. I have to. It's a real thing that we don't talk about enough. And I would say, you know, I've been doing this thing for two and a half years and I'm still learning and growing, but like, I still go through this where I still feel like if I do one wrong thing, like I have that condemning voice sometimes. Yeah, yeah. So that's really good to touch on that.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

I was just checking it in the book because I wrote this story that's so similar to that.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

And it's. It's about a. A professor that, you know, and he would ask the class, and this is a seminary class of. Of. Of, you know, future, you know, Bible teachers. And he'd say the, the question he was asked, how many of you have been conscious of God's love for you personally in the last week? Raise your hand, you've been conscious of God's love for you, and very few hands go up. And then he would ask the second question. How many of you have been conscious of God's disapproval of you this week? Every hand goes up. Isn't that wild?

[Ari]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

And these are people, these are the professionals.

[Ari]

Right.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Gonna teach us how to understand the Bible.

[Ari]

Yeah. And they feel like that as well.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leslie Parrott]

It's a struggle, but, you know, breaks God's heart. I know love is right there.

[Ari]

I know.

[Leslie Parrott]

Not connected with our performance. I know nothing changes.

[Ari]

And you go back to all the times you feel most loved. It was when you were at the bottom of the pit and you felt worthless and you were in sin and that's when he meets you. And it's so. Yeah, it's. It's a struggle that we need to keep talking about. What do you think? Why do you think so many people feel this way? A constant condemning voice. What do you think is the root of it?

[Dr. Les Parrott]

It's the pre programming of the brain. Right. You are what you think. And we were programmed from day one by hearing what messages we were around in our homes.

[Leslie Parrott]

And because God's love is so unique, unconditional, we've never actually experienced it on a human level. Rare pressure. Precious.

[Ari]

Right.

[Leslie Parrott]

Offered that. But it's always available to us at the ground of our being.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

What is it in Ephesians where Paul talks about, you know, try to measure God's love, measure its depth, its heights, its links. Right. It's so extravagant. God's love is just so extravagant, we can't compare it to any earthly love that we have. But that's why we close the book with this, because it's, you know, even though it's the most important, we wanted to kind of lean on, lead up to it. Because this, this one ultimately is the greatest challenge for all of us to accept God's love.

[Angela]

That's so true.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah.

[Angela]

Thank you for writing this.

[Ari]

This is so important for people.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Well, with thoughts. I appreciate you saying that. This is the list. Unworthy talk, needy talk, insecure talk, entitled talk, and then finally unlovable talk.

[Angela]

And this is the talk that we have in our own minds. Guys, you have to get this book. You have, like, genuinely, you have to read this. Because there are so many people who are suffering when they don't need to be. They're suffering and they're a victim to the thoughts in their mind. When our thoughts are under the authority of Jesus. And it's just no way to live. And we don't have to live like that. We don't have to live absolutely tormented with this unworthy, insecure, unlovable self talk.

[Leslie Parrott]

That's right. I love how Jesus said, when you know the truth, the truth will say exactly. Yes.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

And just psychologically, I want to make sure people understand. It begins with your thoughts. So many people think, oh, I need to feel a certain way, and then I'll think differently.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

And that's just not true. Your thoughts catalyst.

[Angela]

Oh, that's awesome to know.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

And we get it backwards so often. Right.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

And. And that's why take every cat you know, every thought captive. That's why you can change how you feel. Exactly. You can literally change how you feel so good and what you think. And that's why one person can have a certain experience failing an exam, for example, and have a terrible feeling. And another person can go, go. Wasn't great, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

[Angela]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

It's your thinking.

[Ari]

Yeah.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Let me. Let me read this. This is when you eliminate. I'm going to. These are the four, the five things that I just mentioned. But I want to make sure people get the payoff for each one. So if you eliminate unworthy talk, you enjoy more grace.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Because this is all about guilt. If you eliminate needy talk, you enjoy more authenticity. Because now you have real depth. No longer the pseudo relationship. If you eliminate insecure talk, you have more courage to step beyond the learned helplessness that you've fallen victim to. All in your. All in your head. If you eliminate entitled talk. You enjoy empathy. Because now you're focused not just on what brings you pleasure, but how I can add value to somebody else's life. And then ultimately, if you eliminate unlovable talk, self talk, you enjoy more love.

[Angela]

Wow.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

That's great.

[Angela]

This is absolutely amazing. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you both. Thank you, Les. Thank you, Leslie. Guys, you know what to do. We're gonna go get bad thoughts and we're gonna fix our brains.

[Ari]

Yeah, we are.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Oh, is that hard? Is that hard?

[Ari]

Sorry.

[Angela]

That'S part of this whole interview is you telling Les that he uses a Dyson.

[Ari]

Did you not picture him using the Dyson? Doing like.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

That's not even product in this hair, so it's ridiculous. Hey, you know, it just occurred to me when you bumped her on the head.

[Angela]

I'm so sorry.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

It just occurred. It was a love. A loved one.

[Ari]

Yeah.

[Angela]

Okay.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

We have the same. We have the same literary agent. And I don't know if she did this for you, but when this book out, she sent me a box of cookies that had the.

[Angela]

No, she didn't do that for us.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

She didn't do that for you. Okay, well, you missed out.

[Leslie Parrott]

Are you sure?

[Ari]

Or somebody sent us cookies.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

So I got a box of cookies that had bad thoughts on it, and so now I'm gonna eat my bad thoughts.

[Angela]

Oh, I love that. Eat your bad thoughts. Don't think em. Eat em.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

That's right.

[Leslie Parrott]

Let's go figure out how this connected with the box. Now I get it.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

Yeah.

[Angela]

All right, everybody. Bad song. We love you so much. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May he make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. May he turn his face towards you and give you peace and good thoughts. Shalom. Shalom.

[Dr. Les Parrott]

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