Ari (1:44)

And look at her shirt. And, like, she's a princess. She's wearing pink, which she's a princess. And I took when you guys said.

Jessa (1:50)

I. I remind you of Aura, and I ran with it. Is that her name Yora, or.

Ari (1:54)

Oh, Aurora. Okay, that's okay. And so Ari's in her princess era, so you guys, like, obviously, she doesn't have a boyfriend right now, and not obviously, but she doesn't have a boy, obviously.

Jessa (2:08)

Why would I.

Ari (2:13)

She doesn't have a boyfriend right now, so, like, I'm the closest thing that she has to a boyfriend. And so we're used to this, right? Like, we go to the airport, and I have her ticket in my phone. We go to the airport. Like, she actually doesn't know which city we're going to, but I have the ticket in my phone. I have her TSA precheck. Like, I have her birthday. Like, all of her information, I have it. And she just Shows up. But recently. And I love it. Like, I love seeing my girl. Like, she turns her brain off and I really do. Like, I wear. I literally am like, like a big girl. Like her big girlfriend. It's okay. And then. But recently she started doing this thing where she won't open the door for herself. Like, she. We walk up to a door and she'll be like, in front of me. So obviously the person closest to the door opens the door. We walk up and she just stops. And I'm okay, sure, yeah. And then I go and I like, have to like, hold it open for her and I'm starting to get offended.

Jessa (3:12)

Listen, I need something, all right? And every husband and wife we see, we. We like, relate it to her. And I. I'm like, look, that looks like me and you. And we're like, why are we relating each other to like a. Like a husband and wife?

Ari (3:26)

We'll literally see like couples, like an 80 year old man, an 80 year old woman be like, look, it's us. And like the eight year old man is like holding up the woman. Like, that's me. You're the one I'm holding up. Anyways, I just love.

Jessa (3:39)

We have. Thank you. Because I'm. I can't take it anymore. I need some kind of, like, I need something. So thank you for providing, filling that void. I got you because I'm tired.

Ari (3:51)

I know, I know. But it's just the funniest thing of my life is that you literally get to the door and you don't open it.

Jessa (3:56)

I don't even. Yeah, I don't touch. I do. I'm so. I didn't even know I was doing that. Do I really do that?

Ari (4:02)

All? You really do. And it's actually my favorite thing. I love it.

Jessa (4:06)

It's the thing that I pay for everything.

Ari (4:08)

We have a joint.

Jessa (4:09)

Like, you don't. We have a joint to come.

Ari (4:14)

Ari will, like, we'll literally get somewhere. And like, for no reason, Ari is like, yeah, I'm paying for it again. Like, she doesn't pay for anything. And I'm like, that's my credit card on your phone.

Jessa (4:24)

You really think I'm in a princess era right now?

Ari (4:26)

You're so in your princess era, but you're getting ready for, like, it's so obvious.

Jessa (4:29)

You don't think that I have always been able. Did I have a little phase of, like, grunginess? No, I did have a little, like a little weird phase, right? Of just being like, oh, I remember that phase when I just kind of I was, like, looking funny, kind of.

Ari (4:45)

You let go a little bit. Just kidding. Anyways, there's a. No, my. But probably my favorite Ari story. Actually, I don't know why we're on Ari stories today, but my favorite Ari story is that. Have we ever told you guys how she used to wear, like, dresses to bed? Like whole references, affirmation dresses when I was depressed. Okay, well, that's really sad. It makes me feel funny.

Jessa (5:09)

It made me feel beautiful.

Ari (5:10)

Okay, then I'm really happy.

Jessa (5:12)

If I felt like a woman, like, I'd wake up, I'd feel instantly better. So I'd wear, like, long dresses to bed. That's so abnormal.

Ari (5:19)

No, and we shouldn't tell people that. That's a good idea. Maybe you're helping somebody.

Jessa (5:23)

Girls are gonna be going tell them the story real quick about the brilliance.

Ari (5:30)

No, I can't tell that story.

Jessa (5:32)

So listen to this. I'm insecure to tell about stories because the last episode they were like, yeah, finally they're not talking the whole time. Do you guys hate when we talk in the beginning?

Ari (5:43)

They can skip. I don't. I don't understand why people say that.

Jessa (5:46)

Don't you guys want a little fun?

Ari (5:48)

And if you don't, you could just skip. Oh, right. Like, if I don't like something, I just skip it. Anyways, why is your Stanley matching your outfit?

Jessa (5:58)

I don't know. Do you like it?

Ari (5:59)

Yes.

Jessa (6:00)

You like this color, right?

Ari (6:01)

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Jessa (9:02)

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Ari (10:18)

What are we talking about today? Wait, no, no, no. We're gonna. First of all, Ari and I, are. You guys. You need to keep us accountable for the way that we don't celebrate anything. Because it's actually. It is. We have multiple things to celebrate today. First of all. Oh, first of all, we just finished 32 tour nights. We just finished our last. Our last tour night of this spring leg. That's what it's called. Actually. We can literally.

Jessa (10:52)

Why do you laugh every time? I don't know.

Ari (10:54)

Because one time you go leg and that was his leg. I don't know. We just finished one of the most insane four months of our lives, probably. We went so hard with Tor.

Jessa (11:06)

Thank you for bringing this up.

Ari (11:08)

Yeah, we went so hard for four months. We just did 32 nights. We'll be doing 50 all together. We have the next three months off. We do have our tour dates out for the next in fall, so we can put that on the screen. You can go to girlsgonebible.com tour and you can see the rest of our dates for the end of the year. But yeah, we just finished 32 nights.

Jessa (11:33)

Yeah. Insane. It has been like, oh, I. I can't believe it. And also, we just passed our two year that we haven't even talked about because we have just been so zoned into tour that it's been hard to focus on anything else, really.

Ari (11:52)

But May 10th was our two year anniversary.

Jessa (11:54)

Two years. Two years.

Ari (11:57)

Two years of GGB, guys. What?

Jessa (12:00)

Thank you.

Ari (12:01)

It feels like it was yesterday and it feels like it was 15 years ago.

Jessa (12:04)

I know, I know. It's insane. I don't. I don't understand.

Ari (12:09)

I know.

Jessa (12:10)

But all I know is, man, what a journey it's been with all of us together going on this journey, learning, falling, getting Back up, just growing together as a family and you stuck with us. And we just thank you so much for everything. And it's been such a blessing seeing you guys in person and on tour. And just like the love, the love, it's carried us and sustained us and we just. We thank you so much for everything.

Ari (12:41)

You guys have been so intimately involved in every moment of this for us. Like, it's literally not two people behind a camera and then something just gets uploaded. Like it actually feels like we're all in the same room together that we've been like. Like you guys feel like we're your friends, but it really does feel like we're all friends. And we've experienced that being in the room with you guys. We don't know what we would have done if we had any other type of audience listening. We would have never been able to do it. You have to understand something. Things like this fall apart so quickly, especially when they reach like a level of just exposure and magnitude that if it weren't for you guys, we wouldn't be sitting here. Like, I personally could not have continued through everything that we've been through who through how hard this has been. I think it's such, so fitting that we're going to talk about perfectionism today and performance when we're also celebrating the fact that man, through this ministry through girls Gone Bible, we've grown so much with you guys. And you guys have just given us a level of responsibility that has changed our entire lives. That if it weren't for you guys, who knows if we would have ever had to rise to the occasion and become the people that God called us to be. Because we literally see your guys faces without actually seeing your faces and be like, we can't let first and foremost Jesus down. And then we also have this army of people who love us, who count on us, and we have to be like, we have to do the things that God has called us to do. Anyways, I say all that to say is we wouldn't have been able to do any of it without you. Two years of us riding together G G B G with little bows and the hair tying up and the. And the dresses and the guys. It's not just about dresses. And if you don't wear dresses, it doesn't matter at all. But it's just like so cool what's happened. It's like so girly, but it's so rich of God's presence with God's presence. Like, I just can't believe what he's done with this. It's all Jesus. It is so all Jesus. This is evidence, like, girls gone. Bible is evidence that God is real and that when you give him your life, he does thing. He. He proves himself ways, like, by doing things that could never be done without him, you know?

Jessa (15:04)

Yeah. Can I say one more thing? You guys have also given us a level of grace that I can't even. It's just like, wow. Like, I look back at some of the episodes and I'm like, why did I say that? But you guys, like, have not judged us. You guys have given us so much grace. Thank you. I see the comments and, like, you guys are just riders for us. You're always sticking up for us. You're just. It's. It's just such a positive family. And so you guys are riders, like, riders.

Ari (15:37)

There's no one. Like, please. There's nobody like you. It's crazy that we would be blessed with family like you guys, because, yeah, we just stick together, and we plan on sticking together. And Ari and I, like, we're just obsessed with you. We love you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Two years and tore. We have the next three months off. Not the podcast, obviously, just off of tour. And what do you plan on doing?

Jessa (16:08)

I don't know. Resting life. I really want to be on the east Coast a lot this summer. I want to be on the Cape, on the lake. I want to be with family. I want to be with friends. I just want to chill.

Ari (16:20)

Yeah.

Jessa (16:20)

What about you?

Ari (16:22)

You know how in scripture, Jesus always, like, does big ministry things and then he goes and is alone? I think I'm gonna go bail him for a little bit. Yeah, I think I'm gonna.

Jessa (16:34)

I think that's a good idea.

Ari (16:35)

I have so much, like. I don't know. I have so much expectation for the next three months of my life that, like, I'm just so ready for just a little bit of. Not a little bit. A lot of. Bit of just, like, true hiddenness. And it's still not hidden. Right. We still have a podcast and everything, but I'm just, like, dying for. I just want intimacy with Jesus. I want, like. I'm just really excited. I just have so much expectation for the next three months. I literally got home on Monday, and I looked up and I was like, that was amazing. And now it's me and you, and I don't have to, like, pull on him for anything, and I don't have to, like, just receive.

Jessa (17:14)

Having porn. Yeah.

Ari (17:16)

And we'll do a whole episode on Tor and how that's been. But, yeah. So what are we talking about today?

Jessa (17:21)

We're gonna talk about perfectionism. I think it's something we all go through. I had it so heavy on my heart just from being on tour and meeting so many of you guys, hearing the stories of feeling stuck, feeling like you have to be a certain way, meeting with Christians who grew up in faith their whole life, and that it made them turn the other way because they feel like they have to be perfect. And so I just think it's so important to talk about it, because when we have this level of perfectionism, we lose relationship. And so the one thing I want you guys to hold on to is relationship, because that's what it's all about.

Ari (18:02)

Let's start with. Okay, we've read this on the podcast before, and we actually read this on tour. People always make fun of me. How I say tour? Do I say it? How do you say it? People say tour.

Jessa (18:15)

I say tour. No, I'm just kidding.

Ari (18:19)

Tour. Pure shore.

Jessa (18:21)

Pure.

Ari (18:22)

Yeah. No.

Jessa (18:22)

Orange.

Ari (18:24)

Orange. Orange. Garbage. We're gonna go to Luke, chapter 10. We all know. Maybe we don't. The story of Mary and Martha, as Ari would say, Mary and Martha and Luke, chapter 10. The story of Mary and Martha is just such a beautiful story. And we've read it on the podcast before, talking about it from the perspective of, like, anxiety and worry. Because in the story, we have two girls, Mary. Martha. Mary is sitting at feet of Jesus. When Jesus comes into their home, Martha is, like, you'll read it. Preparing this big dinner, and she has a lot of anxiety, and she's really consumed by and swept up with worry and the anxiety of, like, having all these things to do. And that's, like, such a good lesson on, like, whatever you sh. Like put your focus on is going to feed, is going to get fed. So if you focus on Jesus, you will be fed emotionally, spiritually. And then if you focus on worry, worry will just increase and it'll rise. And it's just. Yeah, it's just a lesson on perspective and focus and whatever you give your attention to, you give your affection to. But then we can also read this story and look at it from the lens of perfectionism and performance and striving. So Luke chapter 10, verse 38 says, as Jesus and the disciples continued on their way to Jerusalem, they came to a certain village where a woman named Martha welcomed him into her home. Her sister Mary sat at the Lord's feet, listening to what he taught. But Martha was distracted by the big dinner she was preparing. She came to Jesus and said, lord, doesn't it seem unfair to you that my sister just sits here while I do all the work? Tell her to come and help me. But the Lord said to her, my dear Martha, you are worried and upset over all these details. There's only one thing worth being concerned about. Mary has discovered it, and it will not be taken away from her. I just love this story so much because you see these two sisters, Mary and Martha, and both of them had the same responsibility to prepare this big dinner for Jesus. And you see Mary on her knees in front of Jesus, sitting at his feet, listening to everything, just literally receiving all that he has for her. And then you have Martha, who's running around and doing all of these things and preparing this dinner. And you see that both of these sisters are serving him.

Jessa (20:54)

Yeah.

Ari (20:54)

Differently. One of them is serving him from a place of striving and performance and running around and trying to gain acceptance and approval and, like, I must do these things for Jesus. And the other one, obviously, we see is like, I'm gonna serve you by literally loving you with all my heart and, like, gleaning from your wisdom and everything that you have to say to me right now.

Jessa (21:19)

Yeah.

Ari (21:20)

I just think it's, like, literally profound. It's literally profound that in a moment, like, Martha is not sinning by what she doing, what she's doing. Like, she's doing a good thing, but her priorities are wrong. You cannot earn God's love. You cannot perform for it. You can't strive to get to a certain place to get him to love you more. More than doing things for him. He wants you to actually just love him.

Jessa (21:45)

Perfectionism, fear, failure. And I think that when I read this story, like, I. You guys know, like, I was a lot like Martha. I was running around worried about all the things because she's so worried and because she's, like, not focused and trying to be perfect. She misses the opportunity to sit with Jesus. And so many of us can go through this where we're trying so hard to strive and do the right thing. We miss him when we really should just be like. And listen, listen. You need both. You need to be Marianne, Martha. You need to have faith and action. If you just sit with me, you'll hear me. But so many of us are trying to just, like, check the boxes. Can I read something real quick? I'm so interested in, like, people that grow up in Christian households because they grew up in a totally different life than you and I and I just like, I'm so interested in, like, their perception because I hear so many people be like, I grew up in, in a Christian. You think like, growing up in a Christian household you'd be full of faith, but they lose it. Right. And like, I just like, will randomly read articles on it because I'm so interested in it. I found this one article, it's really short, but it just says, I grew up in a culture of scary faith. Not only did I constantly question my salvation, but I also lived by checking off the boxes of being a good Christian girl. It felt like an impossible battle that kept me in a place of shame. Have you ever felt like that?

Ari (23:20)

Probably not necessarily like that because like you're saying most people who grow up in a household of faith that don't grow up having the faith that they should, since they've been Christians their whole lives, they're just living in a dead religion. And I've obviously dealt with perfectionism, but I've never dealt with, like, my introduction to Jesus through Socrates was so pure and so spirit filled with. He let me clean up my act later, you know. And so, yeah, I haven't necessarily felt that exactly, but I know so many people who have.

Jessa (23:52)

Do you, do you feel any type of perfectionism now in your walk? Like, are you dealing with anything or have you. That you had to overcome?

Ari (24:04)

Yeah, I mean, I, I feel so much for people like that girl who we've. At our shows, we've actually heard from multiple people. I remember a woman came up to us crying, someone that we knew and was like, I have been a Christian my whole life and I don't love Jesus the way that you guys do. Yeah, I love, I've known, I've been a Christian my whole life and I don't know the word like you guys do because I don't have a hunger for it.

Jessa (24:32)

Yeah.

Ari (24:32)

And that's just like, why talk about this all the time? And it's. And it's like, as of recently, one of the most important things to me. I think that's why I'm talking about the Holy Spirit so much recently. Because a dead religion, a religion of tradition, a religion of reciting prayers, of rituals, and just like doing the same thing every day because it's a. Checking something off the list is so deadly. And of course it will make you turn from Jesus because literally the only way that we can live a morally upright life is through the Holy Spirit. If you don't have the Holy Spirit, of course you're going to turn from Jesus, because you're called to a standard that you will never reach on your own, you know?

Jessa (25:15)

Yeah. I think for me, my perfectionism started to feel like I had to be this perfect Christian, and if I did one little thing wrong, it would eat at me. And I. So I almost started to become like a robot. And I was like, I do one little thing wrong. And I'd be like, oh, my God, is that bad? Did I do wrong? So then because of my perfectionism, it then turned to shame, which then made me hide, and I started not to like this whole thing. I had to go back to think about when Jesus met me. He met me when I was at the bottom of the pit, when I was so imperfect. But during my walk, I started to feel like I had to be perfect. And I. If I do one little thing wrong. So just my journey has been realizing the voice of the condemnation versus conviction. The greatest blessing of my life has been conviction. But I'm learning that you guys ever know, like, when you fall and then you have that voice like, you shouldn't have done that. Why did you do that? So it's been this journey of learning, like, no, God does not condemn me. That little voice in my head isn't of God. And it's just been. It's been a journey of me realizing God as my father. And so many people can have a hard time with God as their father because they're like, if God is my father, I don't want anything to do with that. Because many of you have earthly fathers that didn't treat you so well. I'm learning with you that God's grace and God's love and how I don't have to be perfect and how when I'm in my quiet time, it's not when I'm sitting there all buttoned up. It's when I'm honest.

Ari (26:58)

He can't be where inauthenticity is ever right.

Jessa (27:02)

And so, I don't know, I'm meeting so many of you that you're like, you just feel so stuck. And, like, you have to be this and that. And the goal isn't perfectionism. It's being more like Jesus. We're all gonna fall short. We're all gonna mess up. It takes some good friends to be like, listen, you're being so hard on yourself. You need to relax. But I think we all can go through this just realizing God, God's grace, God's love, like, really understanding, like, he loves me. He. He took my worst moments, and he redeemed them. If he takes all your failures and your worst moments and he redeems them, then why do we have to have this perfectionism so good?

Ari (27:43)

I mean, it's so good. I. I think another thing. And I have a question for you, because I think something else that you and I have definitely had to walk through is what's interesting, because perfectionism can go a little bit with performance. And I think you and I are in an interesting position because we start following Jesus and actually more so you than me, you've had a really interesting journey because you fall in love with Jesus. He really does save your life. He changes everything. And then it's almost like before you, like. Like, I got a few years of, like, right? Socrates is a man who is not my dad. So he would never overstep boundaries and be like, change this or do this or stop doing that. Like, you know what I mean? Like, so he was just there to, like, teach me. Jesus loves you and he wants to heal you and he wants to save you. And so for me, I developed this incredibly pure relationship with God where there was no striving, there was no performance. I enter into ministry, and this happens to almost everybody who gets into ministry, especially to people who had no idea what they were doing or what was going on where we come into ministry. And, like, there is an element of performance if you don't crucify or let Jesus crucify it. Every single day, he, like, takes your failures.

Jessa (29:05)

Like, I, like, think about myself when I first found Jesus, and it was like, I kept falling in the mud and he, like, would pick me up and be like, like, I love you. Let's try this again. And, like, I just hope we can all see him like that, because that's truly how he is. And that's something I'm still learning, but just realizing it's. It's. It's not about religion. It's about relationship. Waking up every morning and following him and doing the best you can, right? You know, not being this perfect person.

Ari (29:38)

Foreign. You've had. So you really have had such an interesting journey with this. And I've. I went through something similar too, of seemingly, like, losing my identity, but that, like, I realized that that's kind of. That is what happens when you start following Jesus. As weird as it is. Like, you actually do lose your identity because you gain another one. And while you gain another one and you have a firm foundation. And like, we are no longer putting our identity and guys and this and. And career and all those things, like, you still Lost something. Like, you still gre. And so it is like, the Christian walk is uncomfortable. Purification. I think if I could go back the past few years, I would tell myself, like, it's okay if you feel awkward. I just would tell myself, like, it's okay. Like, don't freak out. You will get your personal personality back. You will settle back into yourself. Like, the joy will come back. Everything will come. But, like, Jesus really did flip your life on its head.

Jessa (30:38)

Yeah.

Ari (30:38)

And at the beginning of our relationship with him, him, he's giving you milk. Not baby food yet or solid food. He's giving you milk. You're getting touched by the presence of God. You're in this, like, really captivated, beautiful, like, honeymoon love with Him. And then that starts to go, because he wants you to mature. And then you start feeling really uncomfortable and really weird and like, I don't know who I am. So I went through the same thing as you did.

Jessa (31:03)

Yeah. I think that's why I love David, too. I talk about David a lot, but David wasn't perfect, but he had humility. He had a repentant heart. It's not about being perfect. It's about humility. Like, that's what he wants. He wants a yielding, humble heart. And as long as we're constantly yielding to him, having humility and, like, not being perfect, knowing that we're gonna. We're gonna fall short. We are. But having, like, David, like, he. He had the humility to repent, to be like, let's try this again. We have to understand that we're human beings. We fall short. And he wants to walk with us. And it is a journey that we will walk through our whole lives. And the only one that is perfect is Jesus. And every day he wants to make us more like Him. And that's the whole point. Right. And so it's not about being perfect. It's about every day being like, how can I be more like Jesus? I just want you to know, like, you can go to him and you can bring it to him and you can work through it with Him. And even people. Like, we have to have people to talk this through. I can't even tell you how many times I have to go to my friends and have them remind you, don't be so hard on yourself. It's a journey. And sometimes that's all you need to hear.

Ari (32:24)

Yeah. I think what's. Can I put this on a little bit? Because I'm a little cold in here. I think. I think that's what's so beautiful. About faith in general. All of our relationships with Jesus are so different. I think that's what's so beautiful about this podcast is that you have two voices who like experience Jesus differently. This topic is a little interesting for me.

Jessa (32:49)

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Ari (35:28)

Okay, I'm gonna be completely honest with you guys and I'm pretty sure a lot of you already know this coffee is everything to me, but I don't always love how it makes me feel. The jitters, the crash, sometimes weird stomach stuff. Not the vibe. I do not want anxiety from my favorite thing in the world. So when I tried Everyday Dose, I was so pleasantly surprised to see the outcome because it's coffee. Coffee but with benefits. It's made with a hundred percent Arabica coffee plus collagen, lion's mane, chaga and nootropics, which means it tastes like your regular cup, but it fuels your brain, gives you clean energy and actually supports your skin focus and mood. No jitters, no crash. And honestly, I'm just gonna say it less bloating. All right, you take what you can get. You can choose between Coffee plus, which is my mild, smooth, easy on the stomach, or Coffee plus Bold, which has a richer, stronger flavor. They're both third party tested and mold free, which I love. And the best part is that it takes 30 seconds to make like your full supplement stack in a cup of coffee and you guys can get 45 off your first subscription order of 30 servings of Coffee plus or Bold Plus. You'll also receive a starter kit with over a hundred dollars in free gifts, including a rechargeable frother and a gunmetal serving spoon by going to everydaydose.com ggb or enter GGB at checkout and you'll also get free gifts throughout the year. That's everyday.comGGB for 45% off your first order. I'm sitting with Jesus, right? And I'm like thinking about this because as soon as we start like talking about how we're going to have this episode, I immediately start to. I feel myself start to struggle. Because in the kingdom it's grace and truth. Like Jesus in John it talks about how Jesus came dwelt among us full of grace and and truth. Not 50% grace and 50% truth, like 100% grace, 100% truth. And I think a lot of us can sometimes lead toward like lean towards grace. Some of us lean towards truth. I think I lean towards truth a little bit where I struggle with this and I'll get into it. Like, I've had my own journey with this. But I think I have been struggling because my heart is like, I'm just so, like, scared of abusing grace. Like, I'm so afraid of like the idea of coming on here and telling people like to tolerate sin, you know, so that's what I'm like struggling with my own mind because that's how I deal with myself. And so like, right. Everything that we say and do is a projection of us and ourselves. And so I'm realizing, like, so I'm like, I really sit down with Jesus and I'm like, I want you to speak about this to me first. I'll start off with saying that I went through a period in my journey where I was not only striving per for perfection in myself. Result like having a bunch of religious ocd, but I was also like inflicting it on other people. Like, I was actually not even just doing it to myself, I was doing it to other people. I think because I come from a background of darkness and living in the world, I think think I was filled with the fear of God so quickly. And then I think I also had fear of imperfection. And like, I went through a really hard time where I was. I got super not religious because I was never religious, but I got critical. I was very critical of myself and I was critical of my friends. You know, this. Like, I thought I was the swear police. Like, I'm like, my friends are 30 years old and I'm taught, like, it was just like too much. And so I went through a period of time where I had this perfectionism thing where I thought like, I had to be in control in like perfectionism and performance and striving are all rooted in control, which is rooted in fear. Perfect love casts out fear. You cannot, like, you cannot have fear when Jesus is involved. So you can't have perfectionism if God is in it. And so I'm like on this journey where I am being very critical of myself and other people. And it's not spirit filled, not the intention isn't bad, but if the Holy Spirit's not in it, it's not right. And then as I go on a journey and you spoke to this a little bit where like, shame, like literally the second you just said shame, my entire world, like my heart opened up because I was like, that's what it is, is we have shame. It's not even just that messing up and sinning and falling short leads to shame. It does. But we have shame to begin with. And I have to say that. And I want people to really hear this and understand this, because sometimes we read the Bible and we have these, like, beautiful Christian cliches that actually don't do anything to us. Because I can come on here and tell you every scripture there is about not having shame and not striving, but it won't mean anything to you unless you let Jesus come do a work in you. Everything Ari talked about about how you can't strive, you just do your best. Like, it's all a work of the Spirit. You let the Holy Spirit come and you let him do a work in you. And one of the first things that you have to let Jesus do. I'm saying this because I am on a journey of addressing shame. If you don't look at shame, you will be in this perpetual cycle of trying to be perfect, having shame, falling, and then just being riddled with shame and guilt. I. The second that I started to address shame, I stopped being as, like, weirdly religious because I realized that I was being critical because I had shame still, and I haven't looked at it yet. And so things started to, like, unwrap. That's why this is interesting for me, because I'm going through this right now where I did deal with perfectionism, but I have received so much breakthrough. I. Because I. I've looked at my shame. Not all of it. It's a journey, but, like, I did start to look at my shame and be like. Because when you're free of shame, you actually receive and understand the grace of God. But if you have shame, you will continuously not understand what Jesus is saying in Scripture. And so I just want to say that, like, having a standard of perfection isn't that bad because it's actually biblical. Our standard is Jesus. Jesus is perfect. So our standard really is perfection. We get into trouble when our standard of perfection is based out of fear rather than, like, it's the fear of being imperfect rather than the fear of God. Because the fear of being imperfect leads you to be like, God's mad at me. We did a whole episode on. It's called God's not mad at you, you. And it's like a beautiful episode that I think everybody should listen to because we are on our own journey of hearing a mean voice from God that. That's not him. He doesn't sound like that. The other one, the fear of God leads you to knowing that God has your absolute highest interest at heart. So it's not living this Life of not wanting to be perfect. It's about living a life, fearing God, knowing that God has my best interest in heart. So I'm going to act according to his word and his will and what he wants. Not because feel like I have to, but because I just want to. Because I know it's good for me. Because I know that not having sex outside of marriage is good for me. I know that when John and I hang out at 10pm that we look at each other and set a really strict boundary because we know that if we don't, it's not good for us. Not because I'm afraid of being imperfect. I just know what the consequences. Something that I. You talked about it how like your old journey with how you used to. You talked, you talked about it really early, about how like they gave us so much grace. For the beginning of the podcast. As I'm thinking about this, I literally, I'm like on our Insta or on our YouTube and I go through like, I press oldest. So it takes me to the beginning. I'm looking at the thumbnails and I see I'm like looking through the thumbnails of myself and I'm just like. Like, it's just so funny. Like, it's just so. I'm so prideful. I'm so. It's just dark. It's just like I've got this tough girl. Like, I don't need a man. Like, just like the opposite of who I want to be.

Jessa (43:58)

Yeah.

Ari (43:59)

And I think about that time and I think one way to really combat perfectionism is one to know that it's about learning. It's about making a mistake and then moving forward. It's about falling and then not giving yourself the allowance to abuse grace and say, it's okay. Yeah, of course it's okay. Jesus already paid the price. But like, maturity means that. Like, okay, I hear the conviction, I know what to do, and I'm just gonna do better. And if and when I do fall again, which I do, I have very strong convictions. There's a difference between tolerating sin and falling into sin. Tolerating sin means that you think something is okay or you know it's not okay and you continue to allow it because you think there's grace. And then falling into sin means that you do have your daily convictions where I know this what's. I know what I believe is right and what's wrong according to God's word, and I'm going to stay true to it and I'm going to Fall, obviously, for example, for me, I really, really don't want to react out of my flesh.

Jessa (45:07)

Yeah.

Ari (45:08)

Really don't want to yell at my mom when she upsets me. Do you know what I do sometimes? I get upset with my mom. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? I don't, and I don't want to, but that's falling into sin. I refuse to let Satan win in those moments by sitting there and beating myself up over it instead of just being like, that sucked. How'd I get there? Jesus, can you help me? All right, let's move forward. This is what we're here to tell you guys today. I know it's hard. I know perfectionism and striving is so real. And the guilt. Guilt and the shame is so real. But we're here to set you free. Jesus is setting you free. But we're here to let you know that you can. Literally, every moment that you fall, you don't have to sit in it. And please just don't. But can I offer you something? That the way to not sit in it is to address the shame that's already in you. You have to address shame from the past, shame from everything. I don't know what kind of shame you have. We all have shame. I have shame. Not just, like, past sexual shame shame. I have loads of shame. I don't feel good in this area. I don't feel adequate in this area. Like, that's all shame.

Jessa (46:15)

Yeah.

Ari (46:15)

So you learn from your mistakes and you just keep moving forward, and you let Jesus pick you back up and you literally say, satan, I'm not letting you win. Yeah. If Jesus isn't looking at me, asking me to sit in the shame. But Satan is asking you to sit in your shame. Why would you do it?

Jessa (46:34)

Yeah.

Ari (46:35)

Instead of just being like, that sucked.

Jessa (46:36)

Yeah.

Ari (46:37)

I wish I didn't react like that. I wish I didn't do that. I wish me and my girlfriend boyfriend didn't take it that far. But you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna set a boundary. I'm gonna acknowledge it. I'm gonna repent, and I'm gonna move forward, and that's it. We're not gonna, like, buckle our knees and just be all, whatever. And then another way that I combat perfectionism is by remembering my history with God. So like I said, I'm looking at the thumbnails and I see myself, and I'm just, like, not who I am today. And I have a long way to go. But I'm so incredibly proud of how far I've come in the work that the Holy Spirit has done in me of purifying my heart and just everything. You see it in my eyes, like I'm just a different person. And I look at those. And to combat perfectionism in the moment is to realize how patient God is. And to realize how patient God is, it's really, really hard in the moment when you sin and when you fall to realize God is patient because all you feel is like, he must hate me. But then if you look back on your history, I look back at the girl that I once was, who was on a platform talking about Jesus, who was not walking in purity yet, who was saying swear words, who's do it was. It goes way deeper than that. My heart had so much impurity. And I look at that girl and I see how patient God was with her and was like, like, I'm calling you higher. It is okay.

Jessa (48:01)

Yeah.

Ari (48:02)

And I do love you, but I'm pulling you out of that and I'm bringing you forward. And so that's to combat perfectionism. You simply realize and you acknowledge I am imperfect. So many of us literally need to just acknowledge every single day, I am imperfect.

Jessa (48:19)

Yeah, I am freedom.

Ari (48:21)

It's so freeing.

Jessa (48:22)

Because freedom, we all are.

Ari (48:24)

You can't strive for perfection when you realize you'll never get there.

Jessa (48:28)

He hates perfectionism. He doesn't want perfectionism because you'll never reach it. Never reach it.

Ari (48:33)

It's lifeless. And you call on the one who is perfect and you say, do the work that you've come to do. He who started a good work is faithful to bring it to completion. You started a good work. The day I got saved, you said, the Holy Spirit came and said, I'm going to make you like Jesus. And he comes and he does that. He's not making you perfect, but he is making you like Jesus every single day. And there are 90 year olds on the planet who have been pastors and faithful, faithfully devoted to Jesus their whole lives who are not perfect.

Jessa (49:05)

Right. No one is.

Ari (49:07)

And that's not a pass. That's not saying, don't worry, sin and just tolerate sin and it's okay and don't know what you really feel and don't listen to your conviction. All that's saying is that it's so freeing to know I'm actually not perfect and I need Jesus.

Jessa (49:21)

It's freeing.

Ari (49:23)

We need Jesus. The day of salvation. Scripture talks about it's today. Today is the day of salvation. I need to be saved daily. I Need Jesus every day to come. Purify my heart, do a work, help me stand back up. I'm on a journey every day of being like, I don't like how I acted there. I don't like what I did there.

Jessa (49:40)

And that's what it is. That's the goal.

Ari (49:42)

That.

Jessa (49:43)

That's what that is what it should be every day. It shouldn't be about. I have to be this perfect person. It's daily of saying, I'm so imperfect, I don't like what I did, then help me. And even like a posture of humility. If you're someone who needs help with your heart, even if you're sitting here being like, but I don't feel like a humble person. Like my heart is. He'll help you with it. Look at what he's done in our hearts.

Ari (50:07)

Prayer. Really dangerous prayer. Do me a favor, get down for six months, every, whatever, two weeks, six months, as long as you want. I did it. You do it and you get down and you pray very dangerous prayers and you say, lord, with all of this sincerity in my heart, humble me. And it's going to be really painful. And he takes you through things that literally strip you of all pride, strip you of all ego, strip you of everything that you had to protect yourself. And he humbles you, recognizing that there is impurity in your heart. I feel like perfectionism makes us think, like, I have to be perfect, so I have to get to a point where there's nothing impure in my heart. Actually, perfectionism is literally pride in and of itself. Think that you can ever, ever, ever, ever get to a point yourself in your own strength of being good and being right with God. You can. It is the blood of Jesus and a work of the Holy Spirit that makes you right with God. It is nothing that you can do. And recognizing there is impurity in my heart, there is right now, there is so much impurity in my heart. And there are two things that I'll do. One, I will do my very best not to let that impurity cause me to sin, because we all are impure. Sinning is a choice. You know what I mean? And then two, you invite Jesus in and you ask him to purify your heart. Search my heart, oh Lord, give me a clean heart. Purify my heart. Like that's what it is. It. Do you want to combat perfectionism? Wake up every single day and say, I'm not perfect, Jesus, help me? Yeah, it's actually that simple. I know that that sounds crazy and it's not giving yourself allowance. It's not saying, oh, it's okay. He never accepted. Expected us to be perfect. No, he didn't. That's why I struggled with this topic, because I don't want to come on here. And because you guys are too mature. You're too good. You're too. You're too, like. You're just too mature to be like, ah, I'm gonna abuse that grace.

Jessa (52:07)

No, no. You know what it's about.

Ari (52:10)

No, you know, and we don't. And none of us, like, Ari and I both come up here and we tell you guys, like, you have to give yourself grace, and you rise to the occasion, and you literally say, say, I could never do this on my own. I need Jesus.

Jessa (52:24)

And you understand that it's not just a checkbox.

Ari (52:27)

Exactly.

Jessa (52:28)

This isn't a checkbox. This is. Jesus doesn't. I was just talking about this the other day. Jesus doesn't give us these things to be like, these are rules. You need to do this. He does it out of his love to protect us, to. Because that is life. He says, I come to give you life abundantly. He's not coming to give. Give us rules because he wants to punish us or keep us from things. He's doing it to give us life abundantly. And. Yeah, and when you. When you look at it in the lens of that. When you look at it in the lens of he's doing it out of his love, then we don't sit there and we're like, this is just, I. I have to follow rules. Like, we do it because we love him, because we're in relationship with him. But the minute we start looking at it from the lens of, okay, I have rules, I have to do it because I'm perfect, that's when we lose it.

Ari (53:16)

Exactly. And it's like, I guess it's so funny saying rules. It's like, spend time with Jesus. The conviction of the Spirit will literally be birthed in your soul through intimacy with Jesus. If you spend time with Jesus, if you read the Word, if you're around other believers, those are the three things you spend time with Jesus. You worship yourself, your face off. You read the Word, and you're around godly people who also have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of them. That is how you, like, become the person that God has called you to be. But conviction, like, this idea of rules is so interesting.

Jessa (53:54)

We do have many people say that. I feel like it's rules.

Ari (53:58)

Yeah, that's what I mean. So crazy.

Jessa (54:00)

They turn. They make this into like this is rules. I have to follow rules but that's because they're a lacking relationship. Do you know what I mean?

Ari (54:08)

No. 100%. Well yeah cuz I, for the longest time was doing everything cuz I thought they were rules.

Jessa (54:14)

But like freedom, it's life if you.

Ari (54:17)

Allow the Holy Spirit to come convict your heart and you just follow your convictions. I guess this is what I was what, what I would encourage everybody like all of us have different convictions. Like that's the Christian walk. I might be convicted about something that Ari is in. Ari might be convicted about something that I'm not.

Jessa (54:36)

Not.

Ari (54:36)

You have to seek God unless it's obviously blatant sin. But like allowing the Holy Spirit to come and convict you and then following your convictions instead of sitting here like thinking that it's a bunch of rules, it's like it's literally God coming into your heart, loving you so much to put his heart inside of your heart and then say, hey, this is the way you're going to go. Hey, this is like the little, little I live for Holy Spirit prompting. I live for the little nudges. I live for the little direction that he gives. I live for when I'm about to say something I shouldn't say and I feel him like pull me by my. You know what I mean?

Jessa (55:17)

That's the greatest part of the journey that people miss. You can't help he pro. Every single day you strive to be the best version of yourself, to look more like Jesus. But people think it's a rule book and they lose it. And that's what it's.

Ari (55:32)

No, it's a work of the Spirit. We don't do it. I didn't do anything to make myself pure. I want everyone to know that I did. Not from the girl in the old thumbnails to the girl in the thumbnails now who still has a long way to go and a lot of work to do. I didn't do anything. Jesus did it. The Holy Spirit did it. Intimacy with the Lord did it. Reading the Bible, that's what did it. That's how you combat perfectionism. Realizing you can't do anything. Yeah, you do partner. You do make choices. You do make really drastic, life altering choices. Like Ari and I have laid down many, many things in our lives that have put us on the direction that God wants us to go.

Jessa (56:11)

Once you lay it down and you follow him, he, he turns beauty from ashes. That's what. And you don't even want those things anymore. That's what he does. That's what following Jesus does. You don't even desire those things anymore anymore.

Ari (56:24)

Yeah.

Jessa (56:24)

You know.

Ari (56:25)

Yeah, 100%. It's when you are captivated by Jesus, everything changes. A lifeless religion is when you don't love Jesus and you're just doing things because you have to. And you're sitting there and you're all anxious, being like, should I, shouldn't I? Why don't you just ask Jesus? Why don't you just genuinely, with a sincere heart, seek his face and be like, what do you say about this? Why don't you spend an hour worshiping Jesus, Jesus on your face, and then you'll see that your question is answered without him ever speaking.

Jessa (56:55)

That's the thing.

Ari (56:56)

Like, literally just spend time in worship. Spend time talking to Jesus. Literally just being like, I love you, you're beautiful. You're amazing. You're faithful. You're amazing, you're perfect. You run out of things to say, so he just keeps saying the same thing over and over again. And by the end of the hour, you'll realize, I'm not even asking that question anymore. I just love Jesus. And then you start. Start to step in accordance. We get too much in our heads. We're too in our heads. We're too like, should I or shouldn't I just go love Jesus? Truly? I truly. Again, unless it's like, big, blatant, obvious sin. And there are things even pastors disagree. Like, there's so many. Right. It's nuanced. But I'm just trying to say that you're not perfect. I'm not perfect. Ari's not perfect, Jesse's not perfect, and Jesus is perfect. Sorry, Jesse. Our producer's looking at us like, excuse me. That's why we look to the one who is perfect.

Jessa (57:50)

Yeah.

Ari (57:50)

And I would just say it is. It can sound so Christian cliche when you say God is kind, God is merciful. You need to understand that God is actually kind and he's actually merciful and he actually loves us. And he does not sound like our dad. Dad.

Jessa (58:14)

He does. And he's.

Ari (58:15)

It's flower earthly dad.

Jessa (58:16)

And he's not demanding. He's not.

Ari (58:19)

It's a. Oh, thank you for saying that. That's another thing. The Holy Spirit is gentle. It's a fruit of the Spirit. He is gentle. He's not like. He's not. Like, if you ever hear a voice or, like, feel a pressure that's like. Like pounding on your back trying to get you to do or not do something that's not Jesus. You need to literally speak to that voice and, and be like, s. Be silenced in the name of Jesus. Lord, what do you say about this? He doesn't sound like that. Like we said in either two episodes or whenever. Like, God has the kindest eyes, full of pride. Looking at you in the middle of your sin, in the middle of your mess, looking at you being like, I love you so much and I just want you to be with me. Yeah, like, come to me. Just come back. Just come back.

Jessa (59:06)

Wands, it says, his grace follows us. Yeah, his, his, his goodness and grace are made new every morning. Like they ch. His grace literally chases us. That means that when we mess up, no matter what, he's like, come back to me. If you would just be honest. If you would just not hide from me, if you would just open up and come to me, I will redeem you, I will heal you. But walk this thing out with me because we're all going to fall short. A couple of scriptures just to, just to comfort you in your, in your moments of feeling such shame, like, I just messed up, I'm too far gone. I, I, you know, in James 3:2, for we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to brittle his whole body. Ecclesiastes 7, verse 20 says, Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins. So for anyone who's sitting here who thinks they're too far gone and they're just so stuck in shame, I want you to know that we all fall short of God's glory and it's okay. Just open up to him. Do not hide in your shame. Do not sit in your shame. None of us are perfect. None of us.

Ari (60:25)

I'm definitely not. I'll say that none of us are good.

Jessa (60:30)

Our goal, our goal is to every day look more like Jesus. And what is that? That is relationship, not perfectionism. That is every day being in the Word, consumed in the Word, being in intimacy with him, praying, being in community, having people remind you that is what it's all about. It is not about this level of perfectionism and letting these voices that is from Satan deteriorate your mind, telling you you didn't pray enough.

Ari (60:59)

You're this, you're that, like that's a whole other episode.

Jessa (61:02)

Jesus will never condemn you. Will never condemn you. He is love. And so I just hope that takes a weight off you guys shoulders. I hope you guys just know, like, you're not alone. I'VE been walking through this too. So much. Like just the Christian walk isn't easy, but it's beautiful and life isn't easy.

Ari (61:23)

I'd rather be. You'd much rather be a Christian because it's harder out there. I just can't.

Jessa (61:28)

I just will say one more thing. I just. And I know I said this earlier, but I really want us all to be on this journey of understanding the love of God and him as a flawless father who is like, come to me, I love you. Like, let's walk this out together. Because when we understand the love of God, that's when we feel safe and we can open up and we don't have to hide.

Ari (61:51)

So good. I love that you say he's a loving, flawless father. I want to read you guys something from Isaiah, chapter one to this go so perfectly for. With what we've been talking about. So really quick, I'll give you a teeny, teeny little lesson on the Old Testament, the whole Old Testament. We know that God, if you read the Old Testament, God talks to Israel a lot, right? Israel was like God's chosen people. And then when Jesus dies on the. The cross, the veil is torn. Anybody can enter the holy of holies, anybody can be redeemed and saved by God. It says Jew or Gentile alike. So whether you're Jewish from Israel, who were originally God's chosen people, or you're anybody else, you are a child of God if you receive Jesus in your heart. And so in the Old Testament, when you see God talking to Israel, he is talking to the nation of Israel, who literally, from the book of Genesis on, until Jesus gets there, Israel basically was in this cycle of falling into idolatry, falling into sin, rejecting God, and then God having to come save them. They would be repentant, and then God would have to come and save them, deliver them, whatever, everything you see, Moses, Egypt, like Judges, Joshua, and then so we get to the book of Isaiah and he's talking. God is talking to Israel, right? But Israel is representative of us. So in the Old Testament, yes, we read in context that he's talking to Israel, the nation who is his people. But he's also talking to us because we see in our own lives, we go through the same exact thing Israel did, right? Israel was constantly falling, falling into sin, being saved, delivered and redeemed by God. But they did it over and over and over again, right? Until Jesus came, our final means of redemption. But you see, in our own lives, the same thing. We fall, we fall into idolatry we turn our backs on Jesus. We love other things, put our identity in other things. Oops. Everything is chaotic and horrible. Jesus, can you come save us? Right? That's what we go through. So this is so good. So Isaiah is writing and this is God speaking. So right now, in this moment, Israel is so. It's just like. It's a disaster. They're so consumed with idolatry and sin. They're so far from God, and God is really mad at them. And he says, listen, O heavens, pay attention, earth. This is what the Lord says. The children I raised and cared for have rebelled against me. Even an ox knows its owner, and a donkey recognizes its master's care. But Israel doesn't know its master. My people don't recognize my care for them. So he's talking to Israel, but he's also talking to us. Every time we turn away from him, and every time we reject him, he's like his. He's mad, but his heart is broken because he's like, you guys don't even recognize me. And then he goes on to say, this is profound. He says, why do you continue to invite punishment? People always say, if God is so good, why does he punish people? He doesn't punish people. We punish ourselves by sinning. So he writes to us and says, why do you continue to invite punishment? Punishment? Must you rebel forever? Look, your head is injured, Your heart is sick. You are battered from head to foot. You're covered with bruises, welts, and infected wounds. And you don't have any soothing ointments or bandages. So he's saying, your sin has caused complete destruction. Your heart. Your heart is sick. Your head is sick. You have wounds all over yourself, and you don't have anything to soothe you. Soothe you. You don't have anything to soothe you or bandage you up. Meaning Jesus, like, you don't have. Have. I can't come if you don't invite me. And then it goes on to say, so then God gets really upset because they are basically burning all these sacrifices and offerings and all these false gods. And they're like, making gods out of wood carvings. Like, literally dead things. They're thinking is going to bring them life and saving. And that's literally the same thing with us. We might not be making carved things, but literally God is looking at us like, why do you think that relationship. Relationship that I pulled you out of.

Jessa (66:05)

Is going to fulfill?

Ari (66:06)

Yeah, like, why do you think that. That money and that career and. And those things that are sinful? Why do you think that's Going to fulfill you. And so he's basically saying, what makes you think I want all your sacrifices? Says the Lord, I am sick of your burnt offerings of rams. I get no pleasure from the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you come to worship me, who asks you to parade through my courts with all your ceremony? This is religious religion. This is perfectionism. Doing all these things, an outward expression of faith, but your heart does not match.

Jessa (66:38)

Yeah.

Ari (66:38)

You know, and so he's saying, stop bringing me your meaningless gifts. The incense of your offerings disgust me. That's how God feels about religion. That's how he feels about perfectionism, striving and doing things. It actually means nothing to me if your heart isn't in the right place.

Jessa (66:53)

Yeah.

Ari (66:54)

And then he says, it's almost, almost done. And then he says, when you lift up your hands in prayer, I will not look. Though you offer your many prayers, I will not listen. For your hands are covered with the blood of innocent victims. So God is so mad in this moment that he's saying, when you lift your hands in prayer, I won't even look at you. I'm not even going to acknowledge you. And then in his anger, he begins to give them direction. Like, that's how good he is. He's so mad, and he's literally saying, I will not, not even look at you. And in his anger, he starts saying, wash yourselves and be clean. Get your sins out of my sight. Give up your evil ways. This is his conviction, telling us, guiding us what to do.

Jessa (67:34)

Yeah.

Ari (67:34)

Learn to do good. Seek justice. Help the oppressed. Defend the cause of orphans. Fight for the rights of widows. He's so angry at them, saying, I'm not going to look at you. But then he begins to give direction out of his goodness. He begins to show them him how to repent, how to turn around. And then in his anger, he goes, come now, let's settle this.

Jessa (67:54)

Yeah.

Ari (67:55)

His anger is never an end.

Jessa (67:57)

He's so cute.

Ari (67:58)

It is always an invitation. He's always bringing us back to himself. And then he says, though your sins are like scarlet, I will make them white as snow. Though they are red like crimson, I will make them white as wool. If you will only obey, obey me. You will have plenty to eat. But if you turn away and refuse to listen, you will be devoured by the sword of your enemy. Sword by you will be devoured by the sword of your enemies. I, the Lord, have spoken.

Jessa (68:24)

That's beautiful.

Ari (68:26)

Isn't that such a beautiful representation of who he is that he does he's just. And he will bring judgment, you know, as he should.

Jessa (68:35)

And we're going to be living how we're going to be living. Like animals.

Ari (68:39)

Yeah. He will bring judgment. And there's always an invitation. So anytime you sin, anytime you fall, you have to look up. Please, for the love of God. Every single one of us, including myselves, we look up and recognize he's looking at us with love in his eyes. He doesn't even have disappointment. He's saying, please come to me. That's how you combat perfectionism. We're not perfect. We never will be. We just want to be like Jesus. Wwjd?

Jessa (69:04)

What would Jesus, yes, every day, be like Jesus?

Ari (69:08)

We love you guys so much. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May he make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. May he turn his face towards you and give you peace.

Jessa (69:20)

Shalom. Shalom.

Brad (69:21)

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Ari (69:36)

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Ari (69:43)

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Brad (69:45)

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