All the Cool Girls Get Fired with Laura Brown and Kristina O'Neill

Summary

Girls Gotta Eat — "All the Cool Girls Get Fired"

Guests: Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill
Release Date: November 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the taboo, shame, and transformative power of getting fired. Ashley and Raina welcome media powerhouses Laura Brown (former Editor-in-Chief of InStyle) and Christina O'Neill (head of Sotheby's Media, ex-EIC of WSJ Magazine), co-authors of All the Cool Girls Get Fired. The discussion dives into their personal journeys of being fired, the emotional fallout, the shifting landscape of work and media, and how setbacks can forge new paths for growth and reinvention. The episode combines heartfelt storytelling, practical advice from their book, and the comedic candor GGE is known for.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Universality of Getting Fired

• Ashley and Raina open with personal stories of being fired early in their careers, highlighting the shame and unexpected growth that often follows.
• “It’s such a universal experience that pretty much everybody goes through, and there’s so much shame around it...but it is this, like, universal experience.” — Raina (05:13)

2. The Guests’ Origin Story & Friendship

• Laura and Christina recount their first meeting at a Marc Jacobs fashion show the night before 9/11.
• “I’d been in New York for six days. I was dazzled…Everything was grapes. There was grapes everywhere.” — Laura Brown (40:48)
• “Our first impressions of each other: she talked a lot. She thought I talked a lot, and I thought she was judging me.” — Laura Brown (41:28)

3. Early Career Hustle in Media & Fashion

• Both describe a wild, underpaid, and high-energy era: nonstop events, forging relationships, learning from tough bosses, and the joy of working in pre-social-media print media.
• “You’d have a drinks, then a drinks, then a dinner, you know what I mean, in one night. And we were just hurtling our asses around New York City.” — Laura Brown (43:07)

4. “Getting Fired” Stories — Ego, Relief, and Identity

• Laura: Let go from InStyle with her entire team in a Zoom mass firing (48:43). She reflects on the abruptness and ego blow but acknowledges, “I am free. I can do whatever I want.” (14:41)
• Christina: Fired solo after 10+ years at WSJ Magazine, blindsided in a meeting that moved suddenly to the HR floor (51:13), “There are parts of that meeting I have zero recall.” (55:00)
• Both emphasize how identity is tied up in work, and losing a job can feel like a loss of self.

5. Shame, Community, and the Power of Being Public

• Both guests stress the value of talking openly about being fired rather than hiding in secrecy or shame.
• “There’s no gain in taking this big, heavy kettlebell of bloody shame and spin…rather than [just saying] ‘there was a change, I got laid off, or we got fired.’” — Laura (54:48)
• Showing up at industry events after their firings helped destigmatize and reclaim their narrative. Laura immediately went to a fashion show after being let go (60:08).
• “Get in front of those people. Talk about it. Like, talking about it really helps…If you don’t put your hand up, no one’s going to grab it and pull you along.” — Christina (62:13)

6. The Shifting Landscape of Work & Careers

• Post-pandemic job loss is not unique; short job stints or resume gaps are no longer career-killers.
• “The individual is the career, is your economy. You two, as hosts of this, are your business.” — Laura (67:55)
• They highlight that not everyone needs to be an entrepreneur: “There’s so many different things the individual can do based on their individual skills that don’t rely on a corporate 401k and that sort of structure, which is so challenged right now.” — Laura (67:55)

7. Practical & Emotional Advice from the Book

• Mental Health: It’s natural to grieve, wallow, and take time post-firing—just don’t self-isolate for too long. Lean on your network. “You have to bring some ego into it…you own this.” — Laura (59:54)
• Professional Tips: Download contacts before you’re locked out, don’t sign anything in the moment, don’t go scorched earth on your former employer.
• What’s Next? Sometimes the “kick in the ass” is needed to move forward, whether into entrepreneurship or a new traditional role. Be open to hybrid/patchwork work, and revisit personal interests (creating a board game, writing, etc.).

8. Networking and Paying It Forward

• Cultivate contacts everywhere, even if you don’t know when you’ll need them: “Johnny Appleseed, you’re throwing these seeds around your entire career. ... They do bear fruit.” — Laura (82:00)
• Anecdotes about memorable job-seekers: “He would Photoshop me as Daenerys in Game of Thrones on a throne. And then he would be at my side…” — Laura (83:02)

9. Redefining Power and Success

• “If you lose your job, you don’t lose your power. It’s only in your head if you do.” — Laura (00:00, reiterated at 85:48)
• The book’s central message: Everyone eventually faces setbacks; the cool girls embrace it, learn, and help others.

10. The Book’s Impact

• Receiving stories from women readers—government officials, DMV workers, marketing teams—who find catharsis and inspiration in sharing their firing stories. “You feel so vulnerable, but we don’t want anyone to feel vulnerable again.” — Laura (89:23)
• “You’re not alone. This is the best community—girls that have been fired. We’re so cool, guys.” — Ashley (89:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Identity & Ego:

• “Your value is yours.… Do not give them power over you.” — Laura (48:43)

On Shame:

• “Why not just call it what it is?” — Christina (54:48)

On Openly Discussing Being Fired:

• “If you don’t put your hand up, no one’s going to grab it and pull you along.” — Christina (62:13)
• “Get out in the world. There’s nothing good that comes from isolating yourself.” — Laura (61:44)

On Community:

• “It’s old-fashioned as hell…the friends you made along the way, you know what I mean, but they’re gonna be the ones that are there for you.” — Laura (86:48)

On Reframing Power:

• “If you lose your job, you don’t lose your power. It’s only in your head if you do.” — Laura (85:48 and opening)

On the Book’s Impact:

• “She wrote this beautiful note…‘This has been so helpful.’ Then she signed her name, and underneath, she wrote, ‘Cool girl.’” — Laura (88:08)

On Post-Firing Growth:

• “No one wants to hear this will be the greatest thing. You’re like, shut the fuck up.” — Raina (79:03)

On Career Trajectory:

• “The best way to get a raise is to leave your job and go to the next job.” — Laura (76:09)

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Timestamp Guide to Important Segments

• 00:00 Laura: “If you lose your job, you don’t lose your power…”
• 09:50 Ashley: Tells her first “getting fired” story — young, entitled, and the shock of being fired by email.
• 19:36 Raina: Restaurant firing story—pain, shame, and the long road to recovery.
• 37:19 Guest introductions (Laura Brown & Christina O’Neill) and starting the deep-dive interview.
• 40:48-43:35 Laura & Christina reminisce about high-octane magazine life in 2000s NYC.
• 48:43 Laura: The InStyle firing — mass Zoom layoff and reclaiming self-worth.
• 51:13 Christina: Her “HR floor” firing story—blindsided, shocked.
• 54:48 Laura: The toxicity of spinning stories to hide being fired.
• 60:08-61:44 The importance of showing up after being fired, using community.
• 66:36 Raina: On giving herself and others grace after a job loss.
• 67:55 Laura: The new model—people are the business now.
• 74:47-76:52 Both guests discuss their next steps and the creative ‘pilot light’ that can guide post-firing reinvention.
• 85:48 Laura: “If you lose your job, you don’t lose your power…”
• 88:08 Laura on hearing from readers who sign off as “cool girls.”

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Closing & Where to Find More

Laura and Christina’s book, All the Cool Girls Get Fired, is available everywhere.
Follow them:

• @allthecoolgirlsgetfired (Instagram, TikTok)
• @LauraBrown99
• @ChristinaONeill

Ashley and Raina close out with a message to listeners: There is no shame in being fired—only in keeping yourself small and isolated because of it. And, ultimately, “All the Cool Girls Get Fired.”

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Summary prepared by an expert podcast summarizer — capturing the heart, humor, and hard-won wisdom of the conversation.

Transcript

[Laura Brown]

But it gives you power. And the important thing to remember is if you lose your job, you don't lose your power. It's only in your head if you do.

[Ashley Hess]

This podcast is a Dear media production.

[Raina Greenberg]

Hi, guys.

[Laura Brown]

Hi, guys.

[Raina Greenberg]

Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

[Ashley Hess]

Welcome back.

[Raina Greenberg]

What do we have to live for now?

[Ashley Hess]

The wedding's been over at this point for nine days.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. You know what makes me really sad is thinking that, like, stuff is gonna end. Like, I'm gonna plan something for so long, and then, like, it will happen and be done. Well, it makes me sad.

[Ashley Hess]

We're recording this before because we wanted to get ahead so I could take a little time off. So next week, we're gonna recap it in full on the 17th. Everything.

[Raina Greenberg]

With a special guest.

[Ashley Hess]

With a special guest.

[Raina Greenberg]

Did we already tell people who it was?

[Ashley Hess]

I think we did. You guys know who the guest is? It's Jacqueline, my wedding planner. The most important person at the wedding. No, it will be with my husband. Crazy. But, yeah, I think this is what a lot of people feel. What I will feel is that, like, there's been so much leading up to it. I think it goes back to what we talked about with Liz. Moody is enjoying the journey. So you don't have that crash.

[Laura Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

You know, so we'll talk about it next week.

[Raina Greenberg]

We're gonna vote on who had the most main character energy at your wedding. Me, you, or your fiance.

[Ashley Hess]

Definitely not him. You. You guys. It's.

[Raina Greenberg]

The way I've been acting is crazy. It's really crazy.

[Ashley Hess]

Again, it's just. I don't care because I've always said you can't upstage the bride.

[Raina Greenberg]

You can't even try.

[Ashley Hess]

Not. Not me. Not a bride like me.

[Christina O'Neill]

Like, I'm.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm saying I am. Like, I'm. I'm a performer. Like, it's just. There's no chance. So do whatever you want.

[Raina Greenberg]

Take your titties out.

[Ashley Hess]

Just don't. Don't wear white.

[Raina Greenberg]

That is crazy that people do that.

[Ashley Hess]

My favorite is when, like, moms, like, mother in laws wear white just to troll you.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. Well, next week, full recap. We promise.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. And we're just gonna thank our partners, and we'll jump right in. Thank you. To Rocket Money. Cancel your unwanted [e-mail] GGE at Squarespace. Get a free trial at squarespace.com GGE and use code GGE for 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And quick quince. Get free shipping and 365 day returns on your next order at Quince.com GGE.

[Ashley Hess]

And thank you to Nutrafol. Get $10 off your first order and free shipping at NutraFool.com with code GGE10. And thank you to Winks Health to get 50 off winks at Walgreens at HelloWinks.com GGE okay, I do have to say I'm wearing glasses today. Obviously, I had a little bit of a sty scare. Ashley. I got really scared for you.

[Raina Greenberg]

I texted you. I was. I pulled my car over. I was like, will you just cancel the wedding?

[Ashley Hess]

So if you guys are new around here. I had a chalazion, which is a sty. It's a D1 sty. Megatron Megatron sty for my engagement. And it was a whole thing. And we're not gonna reshare the story, but if you know, you know. And honestly, ever since then, I am a little triggered by even the slightest bit of redness, by the slightest bit of discomfort. I'm like, it's happening again. So yesterday I started to feel weird when I put my contacts in later in the day, I see some redness. Then I saw a lump, but it might have been in my head, and so I freaked out.

[Raina Greenberg]

I was really. I was. I mean, just if it turned into that. You can't get married looking like that.

[Ashley Hess]

You can't get married.

[Raina Greenberg]

Listen, you could get engaged looking like that. It's funny. Wear sunglasses.

[Ashley Hess]

Ha ha ha.

[Raina Greenberg]

You can't get it. You can't get married, Raina.

[Ashley Hess]

I would have had to, like, go under the knife, take my eye.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, you. I was like, we're gonna find you the jujitsu voodoo doctor of eye doctors.

[Christina O'Neill]

And.

[Ashley Hess]

And we had a friend who recently had a really bad sty. That's when I said to you. I was like, what if it looked like so and so? And you go, the wedding. You could not do the wedding.

[Raina Greenberg]

I wouldn't even go to your wedding.

[Christina O'Neill]

If I looked like that.

[Ashley Hess]

Like, literally uninvite everyone.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, if you looked like that, I would go to the wedding. If I looked like that, I wouldn't go to your wedding, because then you.

[Ashley Hess]

Would be the main character. You would steal the show. You'd be like, ashley is a sty. Look over here.

[Raina Greenberg]

I might have written the word Shalazion in your ceremony.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, well, it's over now. It was 10 days ago at this point.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know about it now.

[Ashley Hess]

We have such a fun episode today. So we just wrapped the interview with Laura and Christina, and I think we shared this with them at the top, but I had followed, I think, both of them. But Laura for sure, for years, she was the editor of InStyle. And I remember seeing this post and we didn't fully get into this in the interview. So I wanted to tell you guys, like, they. They'll share their story about both getting fired. It wasn't like the same day. There was time and space between it, but they went for drinks and they posted this half drunk photo with the caption, all the cool girls get fired. And that was the beginning of them writing this book called all the Cool Girls Get Fired. And we'll talk about it today. But I just was thinking we referenced this Instagram post a couple times in the interview. We didn't really say what it was. And we want you guys to read the book and the photos in the book. And it's really special. And so just stuff like that. It was a really impactful, emotional interview at times, because thinking of those moments that are a low that you look back on and you can't imagine your life if they hadn't have happened.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, I have to give you credit because you suggested this interview and you sent me the book, like a year ago, you sent me the post about the book, and I would never have thought to do an episode about getting fired from your job. But it's such a universal experience that pretty much everybody goes through, and there's so much shame around it, and you're so devastated. But it is this, like, universal experience. We've all. We've all been through, which I just said twice in two sentences. Imagine if I repeat myself, how short this podcast would be.

[Ashley Hess]

You say that all the time.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I don't think that because you're not listening to me, because I know you don't. Anna edits it out. My voice notes would be half as long. You sent me a voice note this morning. And you go, I just sent you the longest voice note. It was five minutes. And I realized I wasn't concise. And then you sent me an eight minute voice note.

[Ashley Hess]

But see, you would have gotten a 10. So I've never really done this, Raina. I did five, five full minutes and was like, I can't send this. It's not fair to her.

[Raina Greenberg]

I have deleted voice notes to you. Only because I will think, like, I phrased this in a way that could be insulting, and then I'm going to have to, like, send another voice note to explain what I really meant. And then what are you trying to insult me about? I Knew you were going to say that. I knew you were going to say. That's why I don't send the voice notes. I have nothing to insult you about.

[Ashley Hess]

No, but I. When. When there's a voice note and I'm guilty of this too, there are certain voice notes that are so rambly, they're disrespectful of someone's time. Be tighter, be better.

[Raina Greenberg]

We had this voice, not one friend send us this voice note and you text me and go, I gotta be honest, I don't know what that was about.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh yeah, that was such a long story.

[Raina Greenberg]

It was like a 10 minute story about nothing. Could I. While we're here, nothing. She name dropped eight different people. I was like, what is this about?

[Ashley Hess]

So while we're here. So we have had something kind of brewing. Disappointing. And some drama with a business we had previously promoted. Whatever. And it is. It's a real tale. We've been telling it and people go crazy for it. It's so shocking on so many levels. And we also had. There's a. Some tea about a friend. Someone we're really no longer friends with. So we were on the group chat with our other friend and she asked for some tea on the friend situation. And I got my wires crossed. And earlier in the conversation something about the business had come up.

[Raina Greenberg]

I follow. My next text was I was waiting for Ash to be on the chain so that she could fill you in. I said, ashley, do you want to go? Or me and you go. I got this.

[Ashley Hess]

And I tell the seven minute voice note story about the business and I'm.

[Raina Greenberg]

Scrolling through it and going, when is she going to get to this girl? What does this have to do with the girl? I want to talk shit on. I'm sc. I'm at minute six and a half. I'm like, how has she not brought this up yet?

[Ashley Hess]

I was so confused and I was really proud. I felt like I said it really. I felt kept it tight. I feel like there were highs and lows. And I was like. I said it pretty articulately for me and I was really proud of it. And then you both write back like, whoa. Not the tea we asked for, but that also good. Like our friend was like, nice. I didn't know that was the story that was coming.

[Raina Greenberg]

You were like, nailed it.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes. Like mic drop.

[Raina Greenberg]

How did this happen?

[Ashley Hess]

It wasn't even what I was supposed to be.

[Raina Greenberg]

Honestly though, I'll take tea about anything. I don't care. I'll take tea about people. I don't Even know I like tea about people's. Other people's workplaces. When somebody's like, you don't know these people. I don't care.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, and the friend is a specific type of friend who's like a PR fashion type person, and we're talking about a fashion brand. And so I knew she would eat it up. Yeah. So anyway, it was just very funny where I was like, oh, you wanted to hear about so and so. That's Reina's department. I think we both knew who would tell which of the two stories.

[Raina Greenberg]

I do. I really was hoping it would be me, but I didn't want to, like, scoop you on it if you felt really.

[Ashley Hess]

I don't even remember some of the details. I was like, I don't care as much as you do. I do care. I haven't retained as much as you.

[Raina Greenberg]

I was closer with this girl, so it's more important to me to talk shit on her for not being our friend anymore.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes. So speaking of firing our friends. No, she fired us, actually. I don't.

[Raina Greenberg]

We didn't do anything.

[Ashley Hess]

I didn't mean I was gonna quit.

[Raina Greenberg]

She quiet. Quit our friendship. She didn't even tell me she was doing it. Sometimes you think you're still friends with somebody and you try to go to Stagecoach with them and they just stop responding to you. Cause they got a boyfriend and they don't wish you happy birthday.

[Ashley Hess]

You know what she did? She got another job completely. Like, she transferred jobs while you thought she was still working for you.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right.

[Ashley Hess]

Literally.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right. She signed up for a boyfriend, and when she got that job, she never spoke to me again.

[Ashley Hess]

All right, well, you heard it here first.

[Raina Greenberg]

If you're listening to this, you know who you are and what you did.

[Ashley Hess]

You know what you did.

[Raina Greenberg]

Why quit our friendship? Anyways, so we have this great interview with these powerhouse women in media, and we wanted to just take some time up top because Ashley and I have both been fired from jobs and just talk about our experience. We wanted them to have the floor for the full interview, but we have both been fired as well. So we just wanted to, like, talk about how that went.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

And it's funny, we're, like, talking about, like, similar periods of time. Like, my story, I think this is 07. I got this job in, like, 05. I graduated college and I lived in Atlanta, and I really got my dream job working at this magazine right out of college. I knew I wanted to work there. I had heard about it. I'd seen it. This beautiful glossy magazine, CELEBS on the COVID It was local, but it was like still a big deal. And this was 05, still a prime time in media, pre social media, all of that. And so it was my dream to work there. I interned in the events department. And at the end of my internship, at the end of the year, I think I interned from like August to December, whatever. The editor wanted to offer me a job in the editorial department. And I became the nightlife editor. I mean, really low pay. I was like scraping by, but I couldn't believe it. I felt like I had the coolest job in the city. I was like, I can't. I'm so. I felt so out of my league. I was going out every night, going to all these events. I mean, it was truly a dream because of getting to know the new city I moved to and meeting all these people.

[Raina Greenberg]

Cooler.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, but I was also like, I mean, I'm at these open bar events. I was drinking, you know, and that is not why I got fired. That's why you got fired? No, but I just like, loved it so much. But my boss was tough to work for. She wasn't full Miranda Priestley. But there were similarities. Like when I got there, the lore that I had heard was like a year or two prior, her whole editorial staff quit on the same day. They went and they quit in front of her face because they thought she was that terrible. And I became friends with one of those girls. Years later. I was like, you're a legend. Like, she was not well liked. And the thing with me, which I think we all know at this point, is I was never meant to work for anybody. I can't be managed. We've always joked about this. I always knew I needed to be on my own. But I was smart, skilled, talented, hardworking, all the things. Like, I think I was a real easy hire. And then I had a little attitude about me and I would just act entitled. I was like a bratty 222 year old. Like, I will own that I wasn't the best employee, even though my work was good. And I was at that job for maybe two years. And my boss and I just really started to butt heads and I was looking for other jobs. We talk about the networking while you're at your job today here in the episode. I was looking for other things, but also like, I was reaching out to PR companies and they're like, you can't hire you from there. You know, like we work with you. Like, it was just kind of a weird vibe. And I was like, the money's not good. And she was just really riding me. She was, like, purposely making my life hell that just, like, last minute, you have to go to this event. Like, my weekends were not my own anymore. Like, she really was becoming really controlling. And I was like, I just don't think I can do this anymore. So I had a meeting set with her. I was working from home that day. It was a 5pm meeting, and I was gonna go in there. And, I mean, my plan was like, maybe I will quit. I feel ready to go, but I need more money. Something has to give. Like, we are clearly, like, at odds. And I had that meeting planned. And for days, I'd been transferring a bunch of contacts. I mean, I was young and stupid. I was just forwarding all my emails to, like, my personal Gmail. That's the first time I set up a Gmail was specifically to do this instead of my college email. I'm forwarding tons, dozens, hundreds of emails. Like, I had so many contacts. And the day I'm supposed to go in there, maybe we're like, midday. I was supposed to meet her at 5pm My email started glitching. And my friends were in the office. Like, they. My friends were, like, in the office with her, with the editor in chief. And they were texting me. Like, she's flipping out. She, like, has talked to tech support. She knows you're forwarding all these emails, and she's, like, running around the office. Cut Ashley's email off. Cut Ashley's email off. Like, literally, we can hear her on the phone. She's like, crashing out. And I'm like, what are you saying to me? And so I was like, I don't know what's happening. I don't know what's about to happen. And sure enough, I got an email, and it was, you're fired.

[Raina Greenberg]

Do not come back here. You got fired by email? She didn't even have the courtesy to be like, well, I mean, there's no courtesy. You're acting kind of a little shady. She was like, fuck her.

[Ashley Hess]

It was an email or it was not a phone call. It was an email or a text. And I can't remember if the lights. I'm sure it was an email. Yeah, but it was very, like, your time here is done, very curt. And I was stunned. Like, I remember taking a walk and just trudging. Like, what just happened? I just felt like in a daze. I mean, I called my parents, and again, I was, like, ready to leave. Like, I might have left that day, but it Wasn't on my terms. And I was having those thoughts of, who am I without this job? It was a badge of honor. I remember having the business cards. I was like, I'm such a baddie to have this job. And I will say, that weekend, I had the first feeling of, I am free. I can do whatever I want. Every weekend had been dominated by that job since I had gotten it, since I moved to Atlanta, quite honestly. And I'm not on call for this magazine. And I just felt this sense of freedom. And I definitely felt panicked about what was next, of course, but I did ultimately feel a sense of relief. And I had to keep reminding myself, like, I wanted to leave anyway, but it was tough to have it happen like that. It was a blow to my ego.

[Raina Greenberg]

Also, you. It's like, how do I explain this to the next employer?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. It was not. It's not. It was like, she's not giving me a referral.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

And I had some freelance work already. I was doing, like, you know, a little bit of something to fall back on. Don't get it twisted. I struggled then. I struggled for years after, but, you know, maybe enough to pay my rent. So I wasn't just like, I'm on the streets. But, you know, the next few years were a struggle as I started to try to figure out what to do. I did have a connection I made through that job that I did some freelance stuff for this designer, and then I worked in pr, and I was able to use the connections I made from the magazine. I'm just eternally grateful. And so seeing her name was triggering for so long. Like, it. I just. She felt like the devil to me. Like, it was so I couldn't see her name. Like, I would. It would pop up someplace, and she was everywhere. And then I remember being out at an event, and I saw her, and we talked, and I think I even sat next toward an event years later. And then I was checking my email earlier, trying to find that email when I got fired, and I saw an email from her, and I jogged my memory. She emailed me in 2010, three years later, asking if I wanted to freelance. You know, like, we're fine, and I'm grateful. She took a chance on me at 22 years old, and that was still such a wonderful experience. But that feeling is just like, who am I? And really briefly, and then give Raina the floor. But my other experience, and I talk about this a little bit with Laura and Christina, is I got another dream job, which was the Atlanta editor of this Online publication called Daily Candy. It was a dream in every way. It was nothing but a positive experience for 3 plus years. It made me a better writer. It changed who I am. I'm so grateful for it. And I got that job in a really dark time in 2011, and it just. I feel like it really changed my life. And then in three years later, three plus years later, the company got shut down or got bought or whatever, and all the local editors got fired. And it was so crushing. But I, and I say this later, so I don't want to be too repetitive, but I never would have left the job. And you'll talk about your experience too. And that's what made me focus on my blog, which I already had, of course, but really be like, this is all I got and I have to really focus this. And 2014 was the year when my blog really took off. When I started Bros Bean Basic, when my. I feel like my career started to happen for me, things really popped off and I started making actual money I could save and not living paycheck to paycheck and I just wouldn't have left that job. And I may have never done all those things.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's just. It's scary to go out in the world. It's scary to like apply for jobs. And like, you just think, like, what, Maybe it really. Maybe the grass really isn't greener. Like that's foolish to think that. And maybe there isn't more money or more opportunity. And so people just get really comfy. And to be just like unceremoniously just kicked out the door is sometimes the only way that you'll move on.

[Ashley Hess]

And I understand I'm a little different. My story's not the same as everybody and I feel for anybody no matter what. But these points, it's like I always kind of knew I needed to be on my own. It was just the kick in the ass that I needed.

[Raina Greenberg]

I just, I don't think at our age, when we got out of college, there weren't that many avenues to go be on your own. You know what I mean? Like, people had blogs, I guess, but that was like the very early stages. It was like, could you make a real living having a blog? Like, what is the number one thing people want to do coming out of college today is be an influencer or an only fans model. Like, that was not an option back then. How could you even have thought to be out on your own unless someone forced you?

[Ashley Hess]

Exactly.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, I knew. I just was like, I am bad at rocking for people. Yeah. Like, I'm just. I just knew it. I'm like, I'm my father's daughter and he had always heard his story of same type of thing. I know I need to have my own business. And I always knew the writing was on the wall. I remember having my first blog when I was working at that PR company and I was writing about sex and getting drunk. And they were like, you can't do that. What are you doing? And I'm like, what are you doing? I'm trying to make it out here. I got my side hustle. They're like, yeah, but you represent the March of Dimes. You can't be writing about.

[Raina Greenberg]

And you're like, then don't read it. Okay? If you have a problem with it, then don't go to the website. No one's making you go to that website.

[Ashley Hess]

But it was crazy because I would be like, this is Facebook times. I'd be promoting my slutty blog. And at the same time being like, come out to the March of Dimes dinner. This whatever, charity dinner. Anyway, so let's hear yours.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, I sort of have two, and I'm gonna try to truncate the other one, but I got fired from a restaurant shop. I got really managed out of Amazon. They were gonna get me out of there, but I was in very different positions when those things happened. I got managed out of Amazon. I had a lot of money in the bank account. I had a full resume. I had tons of contacts. I knew a lot of people in New York. I had already started the food blog, which is how I would find you. And I had this side hustle that I was excited to start doing when they kind of kicked me in the ass out the door. I had all these other things that I could at least fall back on. But I got fired from a restaurant job when I was 23 and I was managing this restaurant. It's called Quality Meats. We had dinner there recently. It's a huge restaurant group.

[Ashley Hess]

You guys are Gucci now?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, I mean, we're good now. It's a huge restaurant group. They own quality Italian, quality eats. I mean, it's a huge, really famous, well known restaurant group. And I was 23. I had no business managing there. It was one of the highest grossing restaurants in the country. I had no experience. I should have been there to begin with, but I had gotten hired there. And the environment there at the time, I will say, is that like management drank all the time. I was always walking around with A glass of wine, sitting at people's tables, schmoozing, buy a glass. I mean, that was the environment at the company at the time.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I mean, I've only had restaurant jobs where I would be drinking, but different. I didn't work in a place like you, but like, I don't know, it's. It's not such, it's not just such a crime.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm setting the stage so the managers would walk around my gm, all my other manager with a glass of wine, go to people's tables, sit down, schmooze, whatever. So there was an incident where another manager was fired for being like grossly drunk on the job. And so I guess the vibes changed and I wasn't, you know, I didn't tap into those vibes.

[Ashley Hess]

You're 23.

[Raina Greenberg]

I was like, I'm not stumbling drunk. I'm walking around, I'm holding, I'm. I'm only having sex in the private dining room with the bartender.

[Ashley Hess]

But how can you hire young 20s millennials in the early 2000s and expect us to stay sober? I'm so blacked out at those events.

[Raina Greenberg]

That restaurant was three stories high, pitch black, so loud, so sexy. Like three story high steakhouse, New York City. I mean, it was sexy. Who was not drunk, right? And I mean, truly, this is what. This is maybe the worst week of my entire life. I caught my boyfriend, who I was living with, cheating on me for the second time. I threw him out of our apartment, which I could not afford on my own. And I'm like dealing with like money issues and him. And then I went to work one night, I think a week later, and it was the end of my shift, it was like 10pm And I popped into my boss's office and I think I like drank out of the bottle that he had there. And I was walking around, whatever. I don't remember even how people knew, but one of the newer managers there, who probably was aware that I had no business working there at that point, went to the corporate office and told on me. And she basically turned me in for drinking on the job and I went to work the next day. And the gm, who I was very close with, who really, I'll talk about it later, but did me a solid. He said, were you take a walk with me? Were you drinking last night? And I said, yeah, I was drinking last night. Every drink, every night. And I remember you drinking last night. Yeah, weren't you? And he goes, I have to fire you. And I was like, what?

[Ashley Hess]

I can't like, it just sends a chill down my spine. Like, you're like, wait, no, shut up. This is a joke.

[Raina Greenberg]

I know. I was like, are we going to go like, kiki in the bed? What are you talking about? And he was like, I'm. He was like, you. I wish you would have lied to me, honestly. And I was like, why would I lie to you? Everyone drinks here. And he was like, but that other person was just fired for this. And now the environment is not that. You can just be like, oh, right.

[Christina O'Neill]

Cause okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I was just like, you can't do this to me. I don't have. I can't afford my apartment that I'm living in. I just divided my income in half and now I have no income. And he was like, I don't. And he was like, listen, don't. You don't have to tell anybody you got fired. Like, you. Him and I were really close. He was like, you can put on your resume that you laughed and I will back you up, but you don't work here anymore. And I had to, like, go back into the restaurant, collect my things. And I'd already shown up for my shift for the. It was so fucking humiliating. This was November. It was a couple days before Thanksgiving. It was just, like, dark out. Everyone's going home for the holidays. I had to go home. I have no boyfriend. I have no money. I have no job. It was so humiliating. Everyone's, like, celebrating. I didn't even know what. I blacked out. I think I told Melanie. That might have been the only person I told. I didn't tell my family. I could not, like, go home for the holidays and be like, I lost everything.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

It was so humiliating. And I mean, I look back now, I mean, it's the catalyst for everything. I never would have applied for the next job and met my fiance and I. We'll talk about this during the episode. But, like, to what you said, I probably wouldn't have left. I had a cushy job. I ate well, I drank well. My friends would come in for dinner, we'd comp. Everybody. Everybody I knew would just come in. It was like a party every night. I made a lot of money for being a restaurant manager. I just wouldn't have left. But I really wanted to be in, like, a chef driven culinary scene. I wanted to work for a big, big restaurateur. I always wanted to work for Danny Meyer. I never would have the balls to apply there. And my dad, who owns a head hunting company, was just like, just cold Apply. Just decide everywhere you want to work and just email those people.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I just saw it all the time in the world, so I did that. But, like, there was so much shame around it. I didn't know how to, like, tell people I'd lost my job. I didn't know how to talk about it in interviews. It just. I'm just horrible.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, it is. Your story is. Again, we're talking. I feel like we're talking about stuff that feels like the dark ages at this point in 2025. You know, I'm talking about 05. You're talking about 08. You know, whatever. 2010.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, 10.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, oh, 10. But your story is tough. Like, they weren't, like, doing massive layoffs. Like, you got fired from a restaurant. I got fired. Like, it wasn't like Amazon is restructuring, you know? Like, I think you really. When you work for a big corporate company, you have the liberty to say whatever. I mean, I guess you don't want to lie, but these things happen. But a restaurant manager, some shit went down, you fucked somebody, you drank, you know, so it was so nice that your manager was like, I'm not telling anybody if you don't.

[Raina Greenberg]

He was. I mean, I'm so grateful for him. His name is Mauricio. He just really did me a solid. I don't know what I would have done if, like, people really dug into that. I got fired for drinking. Like, you're not going to hire a person like that into a restaurant space where they have all the access in the world to more alcohol.

[Ashley Hess]

Right. And like, you're like, but it was just this small thing. Everybody did it, and they're like, yeah, we don't care. That's. You got fired for it. So it was probably deeper than that, even though it wasn't.

[Raina Greenberg]

But, like, yeah, to your point. Yeah, if they could hire me or somebody else. They're not gonna hire the person who got fired for drinking.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

The restaurant industry is so small, and when this happened to me again at Amazon, it was just. It was such a different experience. I had started the food blog, which was one hungry Jew, which is how I met you. But Amazon just didn't really fuck with the fact that I had an outside job and they're welcome to. Every company can have whatever parameters they want. They sort of were just like, you're representing this company and this company only, and they didn't love that I had this other thing.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, you didn't really drink the Kool Aid. Yeah. You didn't really play ball and as it turns out, you're meant to be a business owner, you know, like you didn't buy in the way that you were supposed to. And they felt that, yeah, they made.

[Raina Greenberg]

Sure it was not a nice environment for me. And I wasn't used to that. I've always been in environments where I was like the most popular, the most well liked. I always was so kind to everybody. I had tons of friends. I didn't really have a lot of friends there. It wasn't a great environment for me. There was a great environment for other people, but I didn't care for it. But really different experience when you have like money and a resume and you're like, I'll go do this other thing. But I also, I don't know that I would have left there necessarily either because it was like, I made a lot of money. It was so cushy and easy. And if that hadn't happened, I never would have met you. I mean, I feel sick to think, like, if that's the path I would have taken. And we'll talk to Laura and Christina about what the next steps are. But as soon as I was managed out of Amazon, I was never fired. I did leave, but I was gonna be. It was imminent. I got an offer to go work for Resy, the reservation company. And they were gonna make me, I think like the head of Northeast sales or something. And I thought, like, I could take this job and I could have a corporate job at an amazing company with people I really liked. I knew somebody who worked there and I just thought, like, I'm gonna just bet on myself for like a little bit of time.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I turned down like a huge salary from them. And they're a great company in the restaurant industry too. And I just was like, let me just see if I can do this. Like, let me see if I can take this food blog and make it a thing. And around the same time, I got my first deal from Postmates to like post a social media post. And it was like, I don't know, 1,000 bucks or 500 bucks. And I was like, I think I might be able to do this. And if I had taken that job at Resy, I mean, that just sort of would have been the end of that.

[Ashley Hess]

I know that, like, jogged my memory. I don't remember what year this was. I mean, 2014 probably. And I got a full blown offer to be a radio personality on this radio station. It was with a big radio conglomerate. I think it was Cox. And it was like a new Station, they had me go in and run the boards for the day, and I was gonna be, like, a radio personality. Like, I done a dabbled in radio, and I was like, I can't believe they might hire me for this. This is crazy. Like, I. This was all I. When I remember moving to Atlanta and it was still like, a radio age, I just thought those people were, like, so cool. The morning show and all that stuff. And I was gonna have that. I was gonna be, like, the main girl. And I remember the money wasn't, like, quite right, which I thank God because, I don't know a bigger number. I wasn't making much. And I just remember, like, what? Something's not right here. Like, this should be, like, my dream job. You know, I'm good at this. I had so much fun when I was in there and just, like, doing the radio and playing the music and things like that. And I was like, something's, like, not right. And I knew it. I was like, this will take all my time. I might have to go do live remotes on the weekends sometimes. And, like, this will be it. I'll be branded with the station. Like, I will be Ashley from this radio station and not Ashley from, like, this thing I'm building with my blog. And this was before, I think, bros being basic, so it must have been 2014. And I turned it down, and I think they were shocked. Who would turn that down? You get to be, like, a radio host who literally.

[Raina Greenberg]

Who would turn that down?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

And like, we're talking about again, like, the dark age is like, I decided to bet on myself for social media. No one was making money in social media. I mean, this was like, nine years ago.

[Ashley Hess]

I was.

[Raina Greenberg]

There weren't like. But for the blog also. I knew you were making money, but there weren't a million examples of people that had taken a blog and turned it into a viral sensation and then built this giant Instagram presence. It didn't happen, like, today. There's too many examples of that, and everybody does that. But you and I were like, I guess I'll just see.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, it's interesting. You and I both have that similar story of this other offer that also is a testament to us. Like, we built our connections and our community to get those offers, too. We made a good name for ourselves. And then we had to be like, no, I think I want to be this other thing. And, you know, we really love this interview today, and they have such incredible advice and they share their stories, but we do just want to acknowledge that it is hard out here. This is a tough time. So many people have lost their jobs and it's just a really bleak moment in history and it hasn't been great for a while, but especially with just the current landscape in the government and everything, it's just, it's a tough time. It's not so easy to, to get a job. You know, we know so many brilliant, capable people that are struggling, that are unemployed and trying to find a job or just trying to leave their current job. And we just want to acknowledge how tough it is and how it is different than.05 or 2010 or 2015 or whatever it may be. But still, there's just a lot of global evergreen inspiring advice in the conversation.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, I like to talk about it in a positive way and the things that came out of it. But like, you know, when I left Amazon, I had a baked in job I could go to. But when I lost that job at Quality Meats, there was like six months of me being on unemployment and having to call my dad and be like, can you just send me $200? Like I can't cover the rent. I was eating so little. I was eating like miso soup and rice every day from like the Japanese restaurant next door. I couldn't even afford like a subway card. I went to the library to take out books like it was wintertime. It was cold. It was fucking bleak. I wasn't like running around having fun. I had zero funds. I think I got $400 in unemployment a week I couldn't afford. I lived on $1,600 a month in New York City. It was the lowest time of my life. You just, you hate yourself. You're so disappointed. Everybody around you is doing cool, fun stuff. And it's just in those moments I know that you don't want to hear, like, it will get better, but, like, it will get better. Like it just. I promise you. I can only look at my life through the lens of history now. But you do think in those moments, like, how am I ever gonna climb out of this? And it sucked. And I'm not really grateful for the experience. It was really bad. Good things came from it.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, move to la. No one has a job here.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, you can live on the beach. No one expects you to know. You date has a job. If you're a guy, don't live in New York where everyone's just unemployed.

[Ashley Hess]

I know, exactly. That's a tough place to be unemployed.

[Christina O'Neill]

Oof. Fuck.

[Ashley Hess]

I was just hustling.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Just took the bus everywhere okay, well.

[Ashley Hess]

Those are our stories. And again, we're just really excited for you guys to hear this episode. Just gonna talk about a few partners and we will get into it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay? So as it's starting to get cold, there is no better time to go on the Quint's website and just shop around, see what they have. Ashley and I love them all year round. And really, as the holidays come, it's time for all these parties coming up and gifting. Quince delivers layers that last. So they have sweaters, outerwear, everyday essentials that feel like luxurious. And the pricing could not be better. I cannot believe the quality. So I just got this neoprene duffel bag, actually, Taylor Strecker and Taylor Donahue, who we will have on the show soon. I saw them with it and I was like, wow, what is that? It looks so high end. And they were like, it's from Quint.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, my God, that bag.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I immediately went on and bought it. Ashley and I love the Mongolian cashmere sweaters. And I've had them for years now at this point, and they have stood the test of time. They have them in every color. If you want a cardigan, some kind of button down, if you want a crew neck, if you want a turtleneck, all the Mongolian cashmere that they have, just every color. Ashley and I wear them all winter long.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, my favorite travel outfit, I'm saying it here first, that I've ever worn all these years of traveling, I finally found it. I finally figured it out. It is the Quince. So super soft fleece, wide leg pant. And there's different tops in that same super soft fleece. But I did a crew neck and that's what I wore when I flew to Vegas and in some videos that I posted. But. And at the bar, the chandelier bar, but it's so comfy. Like, I don't want to fly in leggings anymore. Nothing restricting, and it's not a full sweatpant rain. And I don't like, like sweatpants. Sweatpants. We just can't pull them off.

[Raina Greenberg]

They have them on quints. But this outfit that you were wearing, it looked. I walked into the lounge and I was like, what set is that? That is so cool.

[Ashley Hess]

Such a good set.

[Raina Greenberg]

So you guys will love it. And truly, they offer prices 50% less than similar brands. I don't know what they're doing over at Quints, but they're doing a great job. So buy yourself a gift. Buy someone else a gift.

[Ashley Hess]

We joke about how they sell everything Christmas.

[Raina Greenberg]

Ashley sent me a Christmas tree.

[Ashley Hess]

I was on Quint and I was like, do they really need to sell Christmas trees? It's a one stop shop. Get your Christmas tree on Quint's.

[Raina Greenberg]

On my first Christmas tree. I'll get it there. Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished. And last from Quint's, perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to Quince.com GGE for free shipping on your orders and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com GGE to get free shipping and 365 day returns. That is Quince.com GGE okay.

[Ashley Hess]

And Nutrafol. I could not imagine my life without neutrophil. This is going to be perfect for you if you are experiencing any sort of hair thinning, shedding, hair issues really at all. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people. I've been taking it for years. I take the women's formula four capsules daily. I have my little pill case so I never skip a day. It's labeled Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And there are different formulas you guys can get on the website, see which one's going to work for you. So again I'm with the women's but there's women's, vegan, women's balance, postpartum, obviously anything to deal with pregnancy. Postpartum hormones can really affect your hair. And I feel like our hair is just such a thing that affects our confidence and how we feel like we look and feel about ourselves. And so if you're experiencing any sort of issues, this can really be what you can turn to. They have a proactive approach. They'll target the root cause. And it is a clinically tested formula. Of course. I've also noticed such a difference in my nails. I mean my nails are stronger than ever. I can't even believe it. I can't believe these aren't fake nails. And I really attribute Nutrafol with that. And my hair, I just really have gotten it back to a good place. And so we just think it's so great to use and add into your daily routine. Purchase online, no prescription required, automated deliveries, free shipping. They make it super, super easy so you're never without it. So you guys can check it out. See thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with Nutrafol for A limited time, Nutriful is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. When you go to nutrafol.com and enter the promo code GGE10. Find out why Nutrafol is the best selling hair growth supplement [e-mail] spelled n u t r a f o l.com promo code GGE10. That's nutrafold.com promo code GGE10.

[Raina Greenberg]

And this podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to to stand out and exceed online. So whether you are just starting out, managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content to time, all in one place. I have to tell you something so funny that I don't know if this is gonna make you laugh. Do you know that I did not own Rayna Greenberg, like the domain raynagreenberg.com so I just bought it.

[Ashley Hess]

You did?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, I bought it through Squarespace.

[Ashley Hess]

You got any plans for it?

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, we'll see.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, okay.

[Christina O'Neill]

I do.

[Raina Greenberg]

But I didn't know why you would.

[Ashley Hess]

Have had it is my question.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think it's interesting to be somebody with a large platform.

[Ashley Hess]

You should in the domain. So no, you were able to get it?

[Raina Greenberg]

I got it.

[Ashley Hess]

Raina.

[Raina Greenberg]

I couldn't believe. Huge, huge get. And there is another Raina Greenberg who is like this baddie in New York. We're friends. She's the same age me, she works in pr. I can't believe she didn't scoop it. So I bought the domain through Squarespace immediately. It's like, what? What's your website for? What's the vibe you're looking for?

[Ashley Hess]

What's the vibe?

[Raina Greenberg]

If you guys are like, I don't have the first idea how to build a website. Squarespace's AI tools will take care of that. It is beautiful. They'll help you import whatever type of designs, photos, copy that you want. And they're just gonna make it simple to take payments no matter what you do. And Ashley and I have run our websites on Squarespace for years. So Ashley's touring website is on Squarespace. Girls Gotta Eat as well. And on the Girls Gotta Eat site, we have every episode we've ever done. We have all of our partners, we have our merch. Everything is done through Squarespace. And so we can't recommend it enough. You guys can head to squarespace.com GGE for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use GGE to save time, 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, let's get into it.

[Raina Greenberg]

All right, guys. We are very excited to welcome two amazing women to the show today. Our first guest is the founder of LB Media and previously she was editor in chief of InStyle, executive editor of Harper's Bazaar, and senior editor at W. She is here with her co author of their new book, the head of Sotheby's Media, and editor in chief of Sotheby's magazine. Previously she served as editor in chief of Wall Street Journal magazine, executive editor at Harper's Bazaar. Together they are the authors of the new book all the Cool Girls Get Fired. Please welcome to the show Lara Brown and Christina o'.

[Laura Brown]

Neill.

[Christina O'Neill]

Thank you.

[Laura Brown]

That was such a powerful and multi syllabic resume.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, so this is your second in person interview after Oprah. Did I do better than Oprah?

[Laura Brown]

And a timestamp. Yes. You are the most efficient resume reader of all time. So yes. You could do one breath diving with that.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm just saying, I get so excited.

[Raina Greenberg]

To write these intros. You both are such amazing women. I mean, what you've done in media is unbelievable.

[Ashley Hess]

So I followed you for years and your career and growing up, all I ever wanted to do was work for a magazine and the whole thing. Like, I loved reading your stories. The beginning of the book is my personal favorite because it's your story, her origin story. And I saw the book and the post you guys posted, what, a year or so ago? The getting fired post, appropriately, whatever this was. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is brilliant. This is true. All the cool girls do get fired. And I told Raina, we have to have them on. And then we just had to wait till the book was done.

[Christina O'Neill]

Wait for us to write the book.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, it took ages, actually. We were fast, but it does.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

You turned it in early.

[Raina Greenberg]

What a flex.

[Christina O'Neill]

We're overachievers.

[Ashley Hess]

I love that.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, it's like type A plus.

[Ashley Hess]

That's amazing.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, we really sought you out. I emailed Simon and Schuster like a year ago and they were like, can you relax?

[Laura Brown]

Like, can you? They're like, can we get Kamala Harris out for a minute and then we'll get to you.

[Ashley Hess]

We almost had Kamala then. She did call her daddy instead. It's okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

We've almost had Kamala twice.

[Ashley Hess]

Twice.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Anyways, welcome.

[Ashley Hess]

That's in the book.

[Laura Brown]

Thank you.

[Raina Greenberg]

And we love the book. And as two girlies who were formerly also fired as fuck.

[Laura Brown]

That's right.

[Raina Greenberg]

We loved it.

[Christina O'Neill]

Sorry.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think it's really important.

[Laura Brown]

Faf.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes.

[Laura Brown]

Faffing.

[Ashley Hess]

That'll be the sequel around and find out.

[Laura Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

So. So let's talk about your origin story. You're both these incredible powerhouse women in media. How did you meet? What happened?

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah, you fittingly met at a fashion show. Cause that's where all good girls in fashion meet.

[Laura Brown]

So we're all like youthful fashion obsessives meet.

[Christina O'Neill]

I guess so. We met the night before 911 at the MARC Jacobs show. That was this epic, amazing. It would have gone down in history either way. But the fact that it was the night before 9 11, I think really crystallized in everyone's mind just how much the world had changed in 12 hours. So I met Laura Brown. We had a mutual friend who was sort of. I think you snuck into the show. Love that.

[Laura Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

I think you were always destined to get fired.

[Laura Brown]

I was like, I know, I'm a kiss of death. No. I'd been in New York for six days. I'd moved from Sydney, and I was dazzled. And I was staying with my friend Libby Calloway, who at the time was the fashion editor of the New York Post. And I'd met her in Australia, and we became sort of instant besties. So I've been there for six days, and she somehow. And this Marc Jacobs show, I mean, he's still the thing, but he was the thing.

[Ashley Hess]

100.

[Laura Brown]

It was like on a pier and everyone was famous, but Libby somehow had. Had snuck me in. And I was like, on stalks. Like, it was like Sex in the City. Sarah, just Clark, holy shit over there. Chris, like, like supermodels over here, and champagne everywhere. And everything was grapes. There was grapes everywhere.

[Christina O'Neill]

Lots of grapes.

[Laura Brown]

It was like ancient Greece, but, like Nostalgia 2001. And I was just walking around tottering, probably on some sort of stupid shoe. And my friend Libby came up and Christina was sort of sitting down somewhere at a. I call it the grapes table. The grape table. And she went, laura, this is Christina. And I went. Met her. And our first impressions of each other.

[Christina O'Neill]

Were she talked a lot.

[Laura Brown]

She thought I talked a lot. And I thought she was judging me. And this has not changed. This is completely the same 24 years later. So we, like, met then and then. Obviously it was a very particular time in history in 2001. But I don't know how often we socialized in between.

[Christina O'Neill]

See each other at events and sort of on the, like, fashion shows circuit. You eventually started working at Details, but then cut to w Magazine.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, details W. Whatever. And then cut to Valentine's Day 2005.

[Christina O'Neill]

Laura Brown started at Harper's Bazaar, where I had been ensconced. Ensconced. I had actually been working there when we met at the Marc Jacobs show. So I had already been there for about five years. And Laura came in and just, you know, I think that was like, when everything sort of clicked with the team.

[Laura Brown]

Right.

[Christina O'Neill]

The boss who hired Laura was someone who inherited me. So she sort of had brought in her own team. And it kind of took a minute for her to get the right people around her. But once Laura came in, we were sort of like off to the races. It became really fun.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I know we're gonna talk about the getting fired today, but I could sit here and talk to you guys for hours just about working in media and magazines at that time in the 2000s, like, I mean, and I say, like, the world was just different pre 9 11. You guys met the literal night before, but just the 90s, late 90s, early 2000s, like, what a time.

[Christina O'Neill]

It was a fun time.

[Laura Brown]

And, you know, because when I started there 2005, I would have been, I think, 31 or something. You would have been 29 or about 30. And you're at that age where you're just everywhere.

[Christina O'Neill]

I know.

[Laura Brown]

You'd have a drinks, then a drinks, then you'd have a dinner, you know what I mean? In one night. And we were just hurtling our asses around New York City. We were so over excited. I had no money.

[Raina Greenberg]

You have so much energy. My clothing was from Forever 21. I didn't give a shit. I was everywhere with no money.

[Christina O'Neill]

You were like, borrowing things from the fashion closet.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, you're on a drum.

[Christina O'Neill]

Wear it, return it.

[Laura Brown]

And then you'd get invited to a fashion show and you'd be in like row E or F or G or whatever the Alphabet goes to. What, the 27th letter of the Alphabet. But you were just like, yeah, totally. And we were just so overstimulated all the time. And we would have a little girl gang and we'd go out and like, I would always be Nana, home early, but everyone would go out on the wine and end up at like the Double seven or all these meatpacking clubs that were the thing. And then. Cause meat packing was your thing because we're so old. But anyway, we were doing all of that and then producing. And then we had. Glenda would tell you, our boss, she was really tough, but like, very enthusiastic and she was really demanding and for, like, Glenda, the greatest success would be, like, if you got your cover on the front page of the New York Post or on Page Six.

[Christina O'Neill]

But it was also a time when fashion was really becoming part of the pop culture landscape. And so, so much of what we were sort of charged with doing, I mean, this was before social media. So it was a completely different, like, how we would communicate. All the great work that we were doing looked very different.

[Laura Brown]

You had to be like, page six. Really?

[Christina O'Neill]

Was it like page six was it? And all of the sort of ways that we would try to get our stories out into the culture. You know, it was like Laura was on TV talking about our covers or we were doing things. It was really a fun, very, very different time. And then obviously, we stayed and stayed and stayed. I ended up staying, you know, not leaving there until 2012. So I was there for 12 years. Laura stayed on after I left. You know, it was like the decade, I would say, when fashion just sort of, like, exploded. And then obviously digital came along and like, completely changed the game, Ruined everything.

[Ashley Hess]

No, I'm just kidding. But thank you for, like, regaling us with the story. No.

[Laura Brown]

And then, yeah, Christina got the big boss job at WSJ magazine in 2012, and I got the big boss job at InStyle in 2016. So she was four years. And when she left, I was happy for her, but I was sad because my friend had gone.

[Ashley Hess]

That's what we were like.

[Laura Brown]

And, you know, we were like arm.

[Christina O'Neill]

In arm friends, but, like real life friends. And I think that was just that era, and it was probably a lot to do with our age. But, like, you really did kind of, like work all day, and then you would, like, go out to dinner together or, you know, go on vacations together. Like, it was just where everything just kind of moved together. And so, you know, when I left, it really did kind of start to, like, break the gang up a bit.

[Laura Brown]

Oh, she broke up the gang.

[Ashley Hess]

I could like, feel this story.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Following the money. I get it. Listen, I love money, but I love my friends.

[Laura Brown]

Now. She got the big job, and that's like.

[Christina O'Neill]

No, it was like the editor in chief gig.

[Laura Brown]

You know, you're conditioned to want, you know, and I mean, through all of these.

[Raina Greenberg]

But you guys have been in fashion for so long. That's not a hot take. But I mean, the changes that have come through, I mean, it was like, you're to your point. So Gate kept fashion, and then Page.

[Ashley Hess]

Six was the newspaper.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. And then, you know, you have social media, and then Influencers became the models on the runways. And it was crazy to be like, wait, these are.

[Laura Brown]

You're like, why is this person walking up and down with the phone in front of the car? Haven't they found their car? And I was like, oh, it took me a minute. I was like, why are these people having a really hard time finding their car? Yeah, because they're just doing pictures all day.

[Raina Greenberg]

Get ready with me to go to a fashion show.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

So you guys both really achieved your dreams of becoming editor in chief. Chiefs is a weird plural word.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

And then tell us how it came crashing down.

[Christina O'Neill]

Well, okay, well, Laura gets to go first.

[Laura Brown]

And look. And again we became editors in chief and yay, yippee skidoo. You know, we got that. But it was, you know, our era of even. Even Christina's. The challenges were starting to begin for legacy media was starting to. The digital was taking over. You know, advertising was going, which some way or another, we. We weren't in the Town Car Conde Nast mythical era, which was fine because we worked hard. Neither one of us come from money. We've.

[Ashley Hess]

We.

[Laura Brown]

We really, we worked. We. We worked. We worked so hard. And nose to the grindstone, sort of did that. And so, you know, come 2016, I was hired in 2016, and, you know, I get hired, it's Trump is elected three months later. And I at InStyle went through three different company owners. I walked in and Time Inc. Was going through its death rattle then. And it was merit, a bunch of conservative guys from Des Moines who I actually kind of really love because they were like, really straightforward. And then we got bought by this company called Dot Dash which a bunch of media, New York media, kind of bros. So through my tenure there, it was Covid. It was every. It was. It was not simple. And we did great work through Covid. Yeah, it was like. We just did really, really great work. And there was a part of me that was like. And when Covid ended, I was a bit like, oh, okay. Oh, we got this actress on the COVID and she has to wear Louis Vuitton because we need their money. And I was getting a bit like the dog with the head out the window, as I say in the book. I was thinking of doing my own thing at the end of the year. Did not think in any way. We're all going to get absolutely shit canned in February of 2022. So I was not paying the most attention, I guess, like day to day. But yeah, we were all. Myself and my team were sort of called On I got 20 minutes notice, but my team was, oh my God. Fired on a zoom. And just sort of given the script. You know, I'm going to call, you know, hrs. They got to give you a script because they've got to tick all their legal boxes and everything else. And so that was. Yeah, that was February. And I remember getting everybody back on this All Hands call. And my new joker's like, you know, all Hands meetings sound like sort of like a big hug. You're always getting fired. All Hands means you're getting fired.

[Ashley Hess]

Just.

[Laura Brown]

And so. But you know what I mean? It's like, it's never good or it's like somebody yelling or a protest or something. Anyway, so then I got back on the Zoom with my team and I remember saying something that is actually the very. The spine or of the inception of the book now. I was sort of saying, you guys. And especially to my baby employees, it was their first job. And, you know, saying, your value is yours. What you've created and learned in this job is yours. You know what I mean? You own this. Do not give them power over you. Do not let them take it from you. And that's the essence of this book. So I was done. February went off, actually got married, knew I wasn't going to work for anybody ever again. Let things sort of come to me and all of that. And then cut to record screech 14 months later and I got the boot.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah, I mean, I had gone through some changes in the job because there had been different editor in chiefs because the newspaper had gone through a lot of transition in the 10 years that I was there. But the magazine was sort of its own fiefdom. We kept our heads down, made a lot of money, had a very successful product, both editorially and advertising. So when the new boss came in, she was announced in December of 2022 and started in February 2023. So she started and it was like hectic. It's a global news organization. At the time we had a colleague who had been unlawfully detained in Russia. There was a lot of shit going on. So I was sort of like, okay, cool, we're just gonna stay over here in my lane and keep doing what I'm doing. But February went by and then March went by and it was the end of April. And I was like, okay, it's a little weird. I haven't met with her, right?

[Raina Greenberg]

She's like, I don't need to learn your name because you won't be here.

[Ashley Hess]

Three months. Haven't met your Boss.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah. So, okay. It doesn't matter how much money we were minting. Maybe that should have been a sign. So I finally get the meeting. My team and I, we prepped like crazy for it, because here I am thinking, like, she's so busy, we're just going to knock her socks off. We did PowerPoints. There was, like, printout stories, all this shit ready to go. And my sweet assistant at the time, right before the meeting, we're, like, standing around. It was probably a group of four or five of us. Do you have everything? Okay, this. You know, we're gonna do this portfolio first. You're gonna bring it, and then you're gonna pull up the PDF, then you're gonna show the. And she said, oh, by the way, the meeting location just changed from her office to the HR floor.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, I felt that, like, in my chest. Oh, no.

[Laura Brown]

I mean.

[Christina O'Neill]

So it was like, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

[Raina Greenberg]

And, like, mass firing. Just get out of here.

[Christina O'Neill]

No, it was just me. It was just me.

[Ashley Hess]

It was a special guy.

[Christina O'Neill]

So literally, I said, okay, guys, I'll be right back. I'm gonna go get fired. And lo and behold, I did.

[Ashley Hess]

And then the team didn't, like, how many people were on your team?

[Christina O'Neill]

My team was almost 50 people by the time I left. And, no, I was one of one. I was really singled out at the exclusive at the time on getting fired. It was super exciting. No, so I was. So I go to this HR room, and it is sort of as Laura describes. Someone's there with a script. You have an HR professional kind of making sure that everything is, you know, diligence is done. Yeah, but she said to me, you know, we're happy to follow your narrative. And I thought, my narrative? Like, what do you mean? And I couldn't, in the moment, imagine coming up with a lie that could carry forward the disappointment and devastation that I felt.

[Raina Greenberg]

Were you, like, in that moment, did you black out?

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah, kind of.

[Raina Greenberg]

When I lost a job, I'd only been there for, like, a year and a half. It was. It wasn't my whole world that I dedicated my life to. I mean, I would. How do you even have any clarity in a moment like that to be able to tell them what the narrative is in the book?

[Ashley Hess]

You write like, I wasn't embezzling. What do you mean? You trust me? That's the narrative.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Christina O'Neill]

You know, listen, I think we work in an industry where, you know, people are very worried about other people's perceptions.

[Raina Greenberg]

Absolutely.

[Christina O'Neill]

And, you know, at the same time, like, while I knew, like, wait, I'm good at my job. Like, I didn't do anything wrong. Like, she literally does just want to In a different direction. Why would I come up with some bullshit sort of adding to the. Sort of, like, you know, carrying the narrative forward by also being like, oh, I'm gonna go start my own company. Like, I had. There was nothing brewing. My head was not out the window. Like, Laura's was. Like, I hadn't registered my llc. Like, I hadn't done anything. So there wasn't even, like, a glimmer of, like, what I would do next. And, you know, like, listen, that is one of the things that, like, in writing this book, everyone we meet, they're like, you guys getting fired made me think about what would happen if I ever got fired. And, like, if that's a gift, take it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes, I think it's really important to think about. But in the moment, like, I do remember thinking, like, what will I tell people? What will I tell my next employer? What would the story be? Like, I'm a year and a half on this resume. Everybody's gonna ask, why did you leave your job? And you have to say, I got fired. You start thinking, like, how am I gonna spin this and ever get another job again? And thank God you both had resumes to back up an incredible career. We all do, but I was young.

[Laura Brown]

But we all do in a way. And it's like, you know, I think that that's. That's what. And a big part of this book is women tend to forget and men, too. But it's like being honest and saying, I mean, you fired later for the same stuff. You know what I mean? Like, being honest. If it's. It's shitty enough, you got fired, you go try and find another job, and then you're carrying around this burden of some spin you've had to make up, and you've got to make sure it's consistent and right. And it's a lie. You know what I mean? Rather than, like, you know, there was a change of the thing. I got laid off or we got fired. Especially 20, 25. You're amongst hundreds of thousands of people. You know what I mean? So don't take. You know, there's no gain in taking this big, heavy kettlebell of bloody shame and spin and going well, because it's everywhere. And if you do that, it just slows down your future. Yeah, it's like, you know, because you've got this on, you say it's all. You've already got to Pay your rent. You've already got all these immediate stresses, so why do you always say, it's like an anvil on the head and then you just put another one on?

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah. And it is like this keeping the story straight part. It's like, why not just call it what it is? And that was the thing for me. Like, in the moment when you asked if I blacked out, There are parts of that meeting that I have zero recall.

[Raina Greenberg]

Of course.

[Christina O'Neill]

And I know I was not. I was in there for longer than, like, three minutes. So it's like there were other things said. And, you know, I probably said something else, but that I don't have full. But what I do remember is I had total clarity around the fact that I said, nope, we're gonna go and tell my team tomorrow that you're firing me. And then I asked if they would have a. Throw a party for me and pay for it.

[Laura Brown]

That's right.

[Raina Greenberg]

I love that you actually took the three minutes of. Your body is flooded with cortisol. You actually are blacking out. You are panicking. You're like, can you celebrate? We have a party.

[Christina O'Neill]

We're gonna celebrate.

[Laura Brown]

Also, what did you do in that HR meeting?

[Christina O'Neill]

I did not sign anything.

[Laura Brown]

Oh, no. What else did you do?

[Christina O'Neill]

Oh, and I texted Laura under the table.

[Ashley Hess]

I was just gonna say, is that your first call? Obviously, she was like, oh, okay. I love that point.

[Raina Greenberg]

I love that you had the wherewithal not to sign anything. I mean, I get we were an adult, but, like, we'll encourage people to read the book. But there is so much stuff like that in the book. Like, don't sign anything in that moment when you're not.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Christina O'Neill]

There was, like, a packet of paper, like, this thick, and it's like, being pushed at you, and you're kind of like. Like, in that moment. No. Like, I couldn't even see straight. I mean, I could see enough to text Laura underneath the table.

[Laura Brown]

Giving you props for hand eye coordination, frankly. She's got all these documents and PDFs that are being ignored because she's being fired. She's got a packet of papers and she's texting at the same time.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, only women.

[Laura Brown]

What a gift.

[Ashley Hess]

Can multitask having it all. But I think that the shame. I validate people's shame, but.

[Christina O'Neill]

Oh, it's real.

[Ashley Hess]

It really does happen to everybody. It's like getting dumped. It's exactly like a broken engagement. And she would. She'll always say at the time, she was like, who would this happen to? This hasn't happened anyone. It's so embarrassing. It's so shameful. And it's like, it happens. Everybody gets.

[Christina O'Neill]

All the time.

[Ashley Hess]

Everybody gets dumped, everybody gets divorced, like.

[Laura Brown]

And people just, you know, are so busy trying to keep their social status going that oftentimes they don't necessarily address it. And it's like, like shit happens to everyone in every way. And so the sooner not everyone has to walk down the street with an emotional billboard every day, but you know what I mean, the sooner you share this stuff and it could be like, I mean, look what's going on with menopause now. Let's go. What's going on with us? What's going on with you guys? It's like the sooner we share this, we lift this burden for everyone that we voluntarily place on ourselves.

[Christina O'Neill]

Absolutely.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I think that I. I think that we're starting the younger generation trying to undo this like, like girl boss mentality. But we were raised with girl boss mentality. I mean, your job is your worth. It was my whole identity. I moved to New York when I was 22. I mean, I tied my worth to my job a hundred percent. That's all I wanted to do is like work and tell people what I did for work.

[Laura Brown]

Well, then you go a boss too close to the sun. And then what happens to close to the sun?

[Ashley Hess]

So let's, let's talk about the identity.

[Raina Greenberg]

Start a podcast.

[Ashley Hess]

There's a great chapter about. I think it's in the mental health chapter about all of that and like identity tied up in your job and what to do, what not to do, not shutting people out, maybe getting off social media. I mean, what are some of your. Each of your tips, like right after. In the mental health section?

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah, I mean, we firmly believe that you need to take whatever time you need to take. And if that involves like laying on your sofa for a week and drinking wine starting at 4pm, we're all for it. Yeah, but we really. 11. 11am that's fine too.

[Ashley Hess]

Treat it like it's Covid.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

All the time. Covid for life.

[Ashley Hess]

Randomises, covet every day.

[Laura Brown]

Every day.

[Raina Greenberg]

I would be like, it's 11. Too early to start drinking. I never showered. It was amazing.

[Ashley Hess]

So anyway, that's the same energy.

[Laura Brown]

Some sloppy good parts weren't there.

[Ashley Hess]

Wasn't that sort of co. Like, we all just kind of got fired.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was solidarity there, you know.

[Christina O'Neill]

So anyway, so no, I mean, we encourage that, but obviously you can't like wallow and retreat forever. And we do believe, like, the sooner you're out, at least with the people who make you feel safe and heard, like, get in front of those people. Talk about it. Like, talking about it really helps. Obviously, if, you know, you are in a mental health spin and you need, like, professional help, seek it. But I think, you know, for me, I had to stay in the job for six weeks until I kind of got my official, like, like, party papers.

[Laura Brown]

Goodbye.

[Raina Greenberg]

Till they threw your party.

[Christina O'Neill]

It was a very long goodbye.

[Ashley Hess]

I thought she said party paper.

[Raina Greenberg]

Party paper.

[Laura Brown]

That's called receipts. And she didn't have to pay for element to.

[Raina Greenberg]

This is the invoice for the party. It's the party paper. Here you go.

[Christina O'Neill]

I stayed until I found my lack of water.

[Raina Greenberg]

You needed to find, like, a venue and a florist, a dj, part of favorites.

[Laura Brown]

That would be like, talk about insult to injury. You're fine now. Organize your own, own party.

[Raina Greenberg]

She was like, can I borrow just, like, an outfit from the closet for the party?

[Christina O'Neill]

It was a really fun party, but my team needed closure. That needed to happen, and that was great. But. Oh, my God, you guys are making me laugh. No, but I think the sort of, you know, in the immediate aftermath, like, you do have to start talking about it and you have to kind of get out there and it depends on your industry. Like, we had industry events that we could go to and show up at and sort of, like, show our faces. And it just helped, like, kind of immediately start destigmatizing the shame because.

[Laura Brown]

Because you actually have to bring some ego into it. You know what I mean? Again, like I was saying, like, your value is yours. And it's like. And the reason we did that bloody Instagram post in the first place was like, all the cool girls get fired. Yeah, we're cool. We know what we're doing. We're really good at our jobs. We got fired.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes.

[Laura Brown]

You know what I mean? Those things can coexist. And again this year in this time in history, coexist more than ever, ever, ever, ever before. But, yeah, I went to a fashion show the day after I got fired. I went to, like, the coolest fashion show in New York City.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes.

[Laura Brown]

And. And I was like, you know what? I deserve to be here. I earned the right to be here. I've been a journalist for 27, 28 years in fashion media. And it was kind of. You're certainly in shock. But there was a bit of strategy, you know, a bit of gut, Guttural strategy to it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes.

[Laura Brown]

Being like, yeah, you know what I'M gonna look cool. I'm gonna go to this, and everyone's gonna go, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

What?

[Laura Brown]

Can you believe it? Oh, shit. Yeah. Hug, hug, hug, hug. Bye.

[Raina Greenberg]

But that's also a whole room of people. I'm not an idiot. They're idiots. Yeah, they're idiots.

[Laura Brown]

Anyone? You know? I mean, breaking news. The rest of the world doesn't go to fashion shows the day after they get fired. But it is like sort of if you're on the couch and you're drinking and you're eating cake and whatever, just sort of put up a periscope, you know, just a little bit of what's out there, and just deploy yourself in a way that makes you feel comfortable in. In places where you know you'll be cared for and not places that you know that. That you won't. You know what I mean? And, you know, it's like, it's like a metabolism. You. You know how much you can take of that. A lunch every now and again, a text, an email. You got to listen to yourself, too. But guess what? Getting out in the world does tend to make you feel better, because all that time spent alone, even if you're in a good space in life, how often do you end up feeling worse if you're at home on your own for too long? So, yeah, you get that encouragement, you get a bit of validation, you get a bit of a hug, a pat in the back of. Call me a free drink, you know, any. Any of that stuff. So we. Super. There's. There's nothing good that comes from isolating yourself.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

And the, the talking about it. I had a friend in a group of friends that I have that got fired, and I knew she felt so embarrassed about it and wasn't telling the rest of the group, and I was one of the few people that knew, and they were like, she's not telling everybody. And we were all together and she told everybody and you could feel the sense of relief and everybody rallied around her and, you know, tells you how worthy you are and doesn't that feel nice? And we've all been there. So it's just like, I bet she was wishing, like, why would I?

[Christina O'Neill]

Why did I do this sooner?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christina O'Neill]

And if you don't put your hand up, like, no one's going to grab it and, like, pull you along, you know? And I think that's the other thing. Like, our industry is so word of mouth, it's so based on relationships. It is such a. Who do you know who can help? You know, how can you sort of like leverage your network and if you're not communicating within that group of people and maybe they're 2 or 3 degrees removed type of people. Right. But even so, like those are potential connections to get you where you want to go next. And I think for us it was really important to kind of telegraph it. Like both of our companies sent press releases.

[Laura Brown]

I mean we were public billboard fired.

[Ashley Hess]

Which is not up yet.

[Laura Brown]

Like press release fired, you know, and that doesn't matter. Again, you have to tell the people that care for you.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

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[Raina Greenberg]

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[Ashley Hess]

Exactly.

[Raina Greenberg]

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[Ashley Hess]

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[Raina Greenberg]

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[Ashley Hess]

So the book is a great handbook essentially of the technical stuff to do. We've said we're not going to get into that today, but we encourage everyone to go through. Get the book.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, get the book.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, I feel like Colbert step by step, because I think people's heads are spinning and they're like, I know I should be doing something on the legal, the unemployment, all this stuff. So anyway, all that's in the book for you guys. And I think that's really important. We just weren't going to outline it all today so you guys can get in the book.

[Christina O'Neill]

But thank you.

[Ashley Hess]

Should we talk about really what came next? Yeah, I mean, I like that you.

[Raina Greenberg]

Both kind of like walked out the door and went to a media event and didn't like wallow. And I mean, some people need to obviously go home, open the door to their house and apply for unemployment that moment, whatever you need to do to feel better. But I remember an ex of mine got fired and I was like, okay, let's write a resume, let's write a cover letter, let's start applying. And he was like, can I just have like, a second to digest this?

[Laura Brown]

No, you need a second.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I think that you guys gave yourself that grace and put yourselves in rooms with people to remind yourself, I built a network. There's tons of bridges to other things that I have. You know, like, look at my career in front of me. I think you both did something immediately next to remind yourself, I'm still in it.

[Laura Brown]

Yep. And that could be just going to the local bar or Starbucks or somewhere where, you know, your industry is like, it doesn't matter what that place is. It is because wherever you work, you know where the value is and you know where your community is. And you know we're going to feel comfortable and it's really, really important because people do want to help. And now again with, you know, this year, we're reading something like 3/4 of a million layers off this year. Like just mostly government agencies, everything else. There is more empathy now in the workplace than there's ever been. There's going to be dick bosses everywhere. We all know that, you know, but there is more understanding of all of these changes. There is more understanding of that you were three months at a place and then you got chucked. There is all of that about that.

[Christina O'Neill]

Gap in the resume. I think all of that is like gone.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I think so too. And I think people stay at jobs shorter period of time.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah, they'll have like three jobs and you have no idea. Like, what's the full time job? What's the consultancy? What's the sort of like, you know, part time hustle? Like you look at someone's resume and it's very hard now, I think, to tell, like it's not linear like it used to be.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, People are patching things together, you know, and also like sort of the silver lining. But we say, what is it? Pewter lining? Cause you feel like shit, right? Everything's shit. Everything is shit. The pewter lining is also that the workplace isn't linear and that this corner office doesn't need to be the goal anymore. The individual, you guys are absolute testament to this. The individual is the career, is your economy. You two, as hosts of this are your business. And not everyone's going to host a podcast. Not everyone is an entrepreneur. But there's so many different things the individual can do based on their individual skills. That don't rely on a corporate a 401k and that sort of structure which is so challenged right now.

[Raina Greenberg]

So you asked, Ashley asked, what's next? And something I want to go back to that you said is when you. When you were at your job, you thought, like, what else is out there? Maybe I'll start something else. Maybe, maybe, maybe on the line. And were you like, oh, my God, this is my chance.

[Laura Brown]

I had registered LB Media on LegalZoom and set up an email address on GoDaddy. I remember. Cause I was like, I'm. I'm a professional. In 2020, I realized it was that far in advance. And I'd had this. Nothing to do with COVID I don't know what it was. I. I'd known that I sort of had enough, what I would say LB Juice to. To do my own thing. Because I was becoming a little bit tired of having my fate, my mood, or my day. These kind of publishing overlords in an increasingly challenged and fickle business. I knew that I had sort of social media insurance. I existed for every cover of InStyle on social media. There might be me and a koala or me, like, as Laura, you know, So I knew I had had that. But now I thought about doing a few other different things. So when it happened, I quite literally went and got my little pleather folder with my LLC in it, went out of the drawer in the back of my house and was like, all right, here we go. You know, so it. You know that the timing was forced, but the sensibility and the desire was always there, and I just had to. Had to be activated.

[Ashley Hess]

You have a different story. And you talk about in the book, you liked working for a company. Like, you didn't have the secret LLC on the back like it was just now. Yeah, I just. I liked hearing that because I think there's no right or wrong. I was always a person who's like, I can't work for anybody. I'm just. I'm a problem. I can't be managed. And you were like, I like it. I like the stability. Like, I want to be at this big company and feel that security. So it was a different experience.

[Christina O'Neill]

I think we're very different in that, like, Laura took this as a sign that, like, she never has to work for someone else again. And I took this as, you know, for all of my, like, entrepreneurial instincts. I like applying them within, like, the rigidity of an organization and not always having to invoice.

[Ashley Hess]

Totally.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, it does suck. We are chasing, like, right now. We're on the way over here. We're like, we haven't Invoiced yet or like, no, we're always doing is like half of our conversation is, did you do the docusign?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

It's so hard.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. So when you go on your own, those that minutiae, I mean, how many times people just not send invoices? Like, mostly men, but like, we will.

[Raina Greenberg]

Get people chased down.

[Ashley Hess]

And it's not that you don't want the money. You're just like, I have so much on my plate.

[Laura Brown]

I know it's just a little of busy work, but being an entrepreneur.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

And yeah, and listen, I mean, the.

[Christina O'Neill]

Book is like a sort of a slice of that type of, you know, behavior. And that is, you know, I'm capable of sending an invoice for something if we're working on it for the book. But my like day job, I can't have my, like full time sort of, you know, my boyfriend, my partner is also sort of, you know, creative like Laura, and has his own company and he's having to pitch and hustle and sort of chase work in a way that's really rewarding when it all lands, but it's just a different way of sort of. And he's always done that. That's like his benefit. And I was like, we can't have two of us doing this. So I think if I had some lightning strike idea where it was like, this is the thing that's going to take me in this other direction or.

[Laura Brown]

A match that was like, for example.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Christina O'Neill]

I mean, we'll see where the book goes. But I think for now we keep.

[Ashley Hess]

Forgetting like the book.

[Christina O'Neill]

No, but I think for me, I just didn't feel like I was done making magazines. Like, I really love kind of like just collating everything that's happening in the culture and like translating it for an audience and like creating like, I love the visual execution of magazine making. I love working with writers and teams and like pulling all the ideas together. And, you know, I was very lucky in that the CEO of Sotheby's, who was someone who I had known, you know, a little bit from my job at WSJ, we had covered Sotheby's, we had interacted socially, he had seen a few events that we had done and I had been to a few things that they had done. So we just started talking and, you know, he called me like the day after the announcement had been made that I was leaving. And, you know, not that I like dismissed it, but I was not in the headspace. I was a little bit like, I need a Minute. Let me think about it. And as conversations sort of evolved over the period when I wasn't working until I kind of knew that I needed to start working, it was the only thing that I kept coming back to. I was like, sotheby's has so much cultural impact. You know, it's a 281 year old company now. It's as old as we feel. And it sort of is talking to the same consumer that I've been talking to my entire career. It's a luxury audience. And so what we ended up kind of cobbling together was just a really challenging, interesting kind of position that had never existed in their company before and certainly wasn't something that I sort of sat down and whiteboarded. But as the conversation kind of grew, I was like, this could be really interesting. And it sort of of, you know, ensures that the paycheck shows up every two weeks.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, I mean, I like that you say that and you're both so different. And being an entrepreneur, it's. Being an entrepreneur is amazing. I'm proud of what we built. But there is definitely something to be said for stability and knowing you're gonna paycheck. There's systems in place, there's processes. You don't have to do everything yourself. And not everybody loses their job and has a big idea. I think there's this pressure to like, oh, I'm out of my own and I can go do my own thing now. Not everybody needs to become an influencer or launch a business if you can grape. But it sounds like you also found an outlet so you can work inside of a company and be creative. And this is entrepreneurial to write a.

[Ashley Hess]

Book a hundred percent.

[Christina O'Neill]

And we had sold the book before I started working there. So I went in with a very clear, like, hey guys, I'm gonna have this thing come out in about a year and a half about me getting fired from the old job. Right. But they've been really supportive. And I have to say, I think because the message is so clear and positive, like we are really saying, like, the workplace has shifted. This is not an alone experience anymore. And the whole point of the book is to really lift people up and like, bring people along in their conversations about what happened to them.

[Laura Brown]

And also, like, even if you take a job that you need for the reasons that you need it, being fired or can. What we urge people as well is to listen to the. Not everyone's an entrepreneur, but there's some little pilot light in everyone somewhere. And you know, there's just the best bit of advice in the book, that is from a finance guy, Ron Lieber, at the New York Times, and he literally said, if you've been fired or whatever, look back over the course of your career to what made you happy and what made you less happy. What can you do going forward to increase the happiness and decrease the unhappiness? And in some people it is like, oh, there is this creative thing that maybe I want to investigate. Maybe it's not going to make me all the money. Maybe I've still got to go to this job. But that's what's. There is also a hybridization to be. You don't have to be an entrepreneur or a paid worker. You know what I mean? This is all of these nonlinear ways to. I mean, I read a story in the Times the other day and it was very depressing. It was about how college educated people who were always presumed to be eminently hireable were all getting laid off now. And there was a guy and he was cobbling together work from here and there and everywhere. And it wasn't really what he was. He'd written code and he was getting sort of wiped by AI, right? So he was doing all these different jobs, but there was a part of him and he was like, you know, I always really liked board games and I used to love making board games and now I'm gonna see that if I can do that too. And that wasn't gonna be where his check was coming. It wasn't gonna be where his lovelywood was coming. But the fact that he'd allowed his mind to go there was like a soul for all the shitty stuff. Yeah, you know, what do they say.

[Raina Greenberg]

The best way to get a raise is to leave your job and go.

[Laura Brown]

To the next job and lie about your former salary.

[Raina Greenberg]

But it really is like, you will get a jump. And like, I getting fired was the greatest blessing for me because I never would have taken the leaps next. And I worked in restaurants. I really wanted to work for Danny Meyer. I never would have had the balls to apply because I was like, I'm not good enough. Everybody that works there went to Cornell for management school. And I was just like, well, I have nothing to lose now. I have no money, have no job.

[Ashley Hess]

Sometimes it makes you sack up.

[Raina Greenberg]

I just, I. I cold emailed the company and was just like, I don't know if you guys are hiring, but I would love to interview. And I never would have had the balls to do that. I had a great salary at my job. I would have Never left. I wouldn't. But I wouldn't have left.

[Laura Brown]

No, exactly.

[Ashley Hess]

I felt like you have to be.

[Laura Brown]

Shocked into it sometimes.

[Ashley Hess]

Do you guys remember Daily Candy?

[Raina Greenberg]

Do you remember?

[Laura Brown]

Oh, my God.

[Ashley Hess]

I was there. Atlanta editor, and it was like a dream job. I couldn't believe that was my job. And I had had the job for three years, and I felt like it was time to go. I had my own blog. It was starting to take off, but I couldn't dedicate all my time to it because I was running around doing stuff for Daily Candy, and the company shut down. All the local editors got let go, and it was so crushing. But I had that same feeling of, like, why would I leave?

[Raina Greenberg]

Right.

[Ashley Hess]

Until you're forced into it.

[Christina O'Neill]

I would have never. I would probably still be, like, toiling away at WSJ Groundhog Daying my way through life.

[Raina Greenberg]

And the longer you're there, the more family you develop. And especially if you say to yourself, like, who leaves a job? I get the job at Daily Candy. It's my dream. Who would leave something like this? That's crazy. And I never would have left my job. I. I was like, I thought I was the biggest baddie on the block. I worked for, like, this big restaurant group, and I never would have left. And when I left, I met my now ex fiance, which is like, my biggest, most defining moment in my life is what happened with him. And I write about it in comedy, and I talk about it on the show. And Ashley and I, like, would never have met. I mean, it. It forced me down a path I never would have gone on. I feel sick to think about I wouldn't been fired.

[Christina O'Neill]

Well, it's like what Oprah says in the book.

[Laura Brown]

The setback is a setup.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, that's what we want to talk about. Like, I don't know many women or people, I guess, but, you know, I like to talk to women that have gotten fired that don't say it was the best thing. And the same with breakups. I think there's so much correlation between the two.

[Laura Brown]

You don't want to hear it at the time. You want to punch the person who's saying it in the face.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, you can only see it clearly.

[Ashley Hess]

You don't want to hear it at the moment.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

But they're probably right.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

So you guys do have a whole. I think it's the end about reinventing.

[Laura Brown]

All the different ladies who. Who wrote. And this was so wonderful because.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, the quotes are so.

[Laura Brown]

When we. When we started, we call it Cool girls who had epiphanies. And we asked all the way through the process of reading the book, do you. Do you have a story that you want to share with us on our Cool Girls email? And we had women really like unloading things they'd maybe ever told anybody before. And every single one of them, it's probably 30 or so in the book, have reached the conclusion that it was the best thing that could have happened to them. It took them a minute. There were no.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you said no one wants to hear this. This will be the greatest thing. You're like, shut the fuck up.

[Ashley Hess]

Shut up. Don't say that to people.

[Laura Brown]

But guess what? In the times. Times that they show more ownership of their skills and their future, some of them have started their own business. The most beautiful one I love so dearly is the last passage in the book is from four girls who worked in marketing at InStyle. So they got laid off, too, and they started a business together called out of Office Marketing. And the most wrote the most beautiful, lyrical passage about ownership and teamwork and running their own. And. And it's just. And we've seen them on the tour and it's like, that's it. Yeah, that's. That's what you can do. And again, there are people there for you. You know, again, if you reach out your hand and. And we hear from Women all on LinkedIn. Right now is a buzz. We're just connecting, like, absolute frenzy on. On LinkedIn, because all these women, because we know if they're connecting with us, they've got a story, you know, and the stories we're getting are so unbelievable. And so. So there's just no regrets.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think there's just. When you walk out that door, there's so much shame attached to it. And I remember thinking, I'm the only person this has ever happened to. How will I ever share this with anybody? I'm so humiliated. But what you're doing is so important to just remind people that this happens to everybody. And, like, so much good comes from it. But, man, it feels so bad.

[Ashley Hess]

In that moment, we wish you had our book. I did write you.

[Laura Brown]

Oprah was like, I wish I had your book. And we're like, you do now. And she's like, I don't really need it.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm all set.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, if she ever fires me.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

I want to just circle back to how you got your next position, which was through a connection while you were at your existing job. And this is going to be the coldest take of the interview. But really just the connections that you make, just, that's the networking and having those and keeping them in your back pocket and showing up, presenting well to people while you currently have a job is so important. Any job I've ever gotten was from a connection from the previous one. And so never stop thinking about what's next. You're the prime example of that and how important it is. It's like my number one piece of career advice.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't think it's a cold take. My dad always said to me since I was young, never burn a bridge. Never, ever burn a bridge.

[Christina O'Neill]

That's why we say, don't go scorched earth on your previous employer. I mean, to this day, I will tell you, I loved that job. Like, I loved publicly.

[Raina Greenberg]

You will tell us that?

[Christina O'Neill]

No, but, like, for real, I really, like, I have no, like, totally. And I think that's one of the things that we really want people to kind of take away from one, download your contacts while you still work in your current job. Because as soon as that email is shut off, sometimes it is hard to kind of get things back from, you know, the tech part of whatever. So, you know, do keep up with, like, your network. And also, like, we also. So we're terrible examples of this, but we weren't, you know, constantly updating our bios and, like, republishing things to LinkedIn and doing all that. You can do things along the way, especially in this, like, you know, landscape right now where there's so much change to put yourself in a better position when you're in your current job and.

[Laura Brown]

You'Re not realizing, you're not realizing while you're out. I ran a council for red, the HIV organization. And that's because I'd met all those guys around throughout the years and you too, and all that kind of stuff. And they. They'd heard this had happened and asked me to do that. And now I can use my skills in fashion, media, entertainment, in, like, global health. And that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't just been out and about meeting these people. And, you know, my husband says it's like Johnny Appleseed, you're throwing these seeds around your entire career that you're not necessarily conscious you're doing. You know what I mean? And actually, they do bear fruit. They do bear fruit with your experience and with your relationships and when you need them to.

[Ashley Hess]

Our previous assistant emailed and wanted to work for us, what, a year and a half before we hired her and her resume was great. And we didn't need that job. We didn't need the position at the time. And she would follow up. I think. I think she really had. Every six months, she would follow up. She'd be like, buzz, buzz. Then we ended up hiring her, and I think she was like, whoa, I've really worked out, like, sometimes when you.

[Laura Brown]

Show, you've got the DNA for show. When we went to get the Harper's Bazaar, there was this kid called Iggy, and he wanted to work at Bazaar so bad in whatever department. And he would go on Twitter and he wanted to work with me for whatever reason, and he would Photoshop me as Daenerys in Game of Thrones on a throne. And then he would be at my side for some reason. And it was the most camp ridiculous. And it would make me laugh so hard. And I was like, who's this kid?

[Ashley Hess]

Yes.

[Laura Brown]

Who's, like, funny and got photo. Remember, he came in, he interned for ages. He's now like the global. Global, like, photo director. Evoke.

[Christina O'Neill]

No.

[Raina Greenberg]

I just got chilled.

[Laura Brown]

That's crazy, because he had the nasty wherewithal. He stuck his hand up. He was funny. He followed up. So basically just Photoshop your. You know, anyone that you want to.

[Christina O'Neill]

Work for, just turn them into a drone.

[Laura Brown]

No, but it's that sort of, you know, that sort of belief in yourself and showing that you have that DNA.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's not just sending a resume. I love it. I think it's just. I'm more surprised by people that have, like, a bad reputation for how they treat people and their colleagues or who they come across. Because I just. It's so important to Ashley and I that everybody that meets us has a good experience with us, whether they work for us. We pay. We pay immediately. We try to treat people as much respect as possible. And I can't imagine not doing that in the workplace, because when you are, you're fired for some reason, don't you want to have a giant list of people that are just like, she's the best. I loved working with her. She's a thing.

[Laura Brown]

Goodwill is what's in this book. Oprah's in this book. Because we did three shoots and interviews with her and we got on.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Laura Brown]

You know what I mean? Like, that's a very niche example. But goodwill goes so far.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. Well, let's maybe wrap up with a little bit of the State of the world. Not to end it on a terrific. But I know we talked about it a little bit. The good news is people it's not linear. Like you said, people have more compassion. All the things we kind of mentioned earlier. But is there anything you guys are seeing? Do you have any helpful tips to just really navigate what is, is a totally different world than five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, one year ago?

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah, I mean, I think all of it, right? Like keeping those connections near and dear, checking in, figuring out, you know, it is important, I think, to make sure that you're clear on what you want when you are reaching out to someone. Right? Like putting Laura's head on Daenerys.

[Laura Brown]

I mean, not everyone has to Photoshop.

[Christina O'Neill]

My head, you know, work for everybody.

[Laura Brown]

Understanding your business, understanding the business that you want to be in and if you feel yucky or uncomfortable or that's not your business, you know what I mean? Where's your comfort level and where's your interest? And following that and just reading the Horizon of business app because there's so much change, you know, we, there's so much change in our business, which is why we're not bosses of where we were.

[Christina O'Neill]

Totally different than it did when we started.

[Laura Brown]

But there's so much change everywhere. AI, look what the government, government's doing, you know, it's an absolute show, you know, but it gives you power. And the important thing to remember is if you lose your job, you don't lose your power. It's only in your head if you do. What gives you power is understanding your business and understanding the change in the nuance and positioning yourself through your own curiosity. You don't have to read 12 books and you know, become an AI expert. You just have to read the room, you know what I mean? And people hire people. They don't hire. Can I use a bad word keywords on LinkedIn? You know what I mean? They don't hire that. They hire people.

[Christina O'Neill]

They're not gonna hire like a thing. So remember this resume scan on an AI bot, like singled you out. Like they are gonna hire you based on that.

[Laura Brown]

It's your community and you have a community in the good times, you have a community in the bad community. When you're fired, you have a community that's gonna help you get hired again. And you can't forget that. And that's sort of. It's old fashioned as hell, you know, it's always people, the friends you made along the way, you know what I mean? But they're gonna be the ones that are there for you. But again, you gotta stay. Stick your hand up.

[Ashley Hess]

That was perfect.

[Raina Greenberg]

This is beautiful.

[Ashley Hess]

Thanks guys.

[Raina Greenberg]

I want you guys to just stay so we can talk. I know.

[Ashley Hess]

So, I mean, the book is out. It's been. Well, this will be a week. It's been a couple weeks. While the time this airs. It will have been a couple weeks. Couple weeks.

[Laura Brown]

The book's been out a couple weeks.

[Ashley Hess]

And how does it feel?

[Christina O'Neill]

You know, it really was like a vibe shift in terms of the fact that it sort of existed in our heads and in our, like, publishers, you know, offices. And then having it out in the world has been such a fulfilling and incredibly. I can't even tell you how emotional it's been to kind of connect with all these women who've reached out to us, whether it's on LinkedIn or, you know, through social media. That part, you know, when we realize just how necessary this book is and the timing, you know, being what it is, you know, our hearts are full.

[Laura Brown]

It's really moving. And. Yeah, I'll give the example. There's one who wrote us on LinkedIn, and she was an inspector general of a huge government agency, and she was laid off, like, housing, like, really, you know, really meaningful stuff. And she was laid off in that sort of round of one line, layoffs that happened. Fired at the beginning of the year. And she wrote this beautiful note, and she said, you know, this was really shocking for me, and I placed a lot of value in it. This has been so helpful. And then she signed her name, and underneath she wrote, cool girl.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, why is that movie?

[Laura Brown]

So, And I was like. And we were lucky enough to meet her at Vital Voices, and just the other day, they were at this LinkedIn and there was this sweet kid. She must have been, what, 22 or whatever. And she was like, I was so destroyed when I was, like, fired from the dmv. And I, like, I couldn't get over it. But this is amazing, and I feel amazing, and there's so much to learn, and I feel so much better. And so that's what we do it for.

[Christina O'Neill]

Exactly.

[Raina Greenberg]

It really is.

[Christina O'Neill]

So it really, likes, this book has existed in our heads now for, like, two and a half years since, I mean, literally since we went for drinks right after Laura got back from the trip she was on when I had been fired. And so just to have it have gone from, like, an Instagram post to this. And, you know, we're just so grateful for all the readers out there. Like, it's wild.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's really important what you're doing. And we mentioned this, but in the book, there's so much legal advice and financial advice. And you sat down with so many amazing women and interviewed them. We didn't really mention this, but there's interviews throughout the book of tremendously famous, successful women that lost their careers as well and just had to pick themselves back up. And it's just important to remind people that, like, you feel so humiliated and like the world is over, but, like, it will go on and you can do great things.

[Laura Brown]

You feel so vulnerable, but we don't want anyone to feel vulnerable again.

[Christina O'Neill]

Yeah, you're not alone.

[Ashley Hess]

You're not alone. This is the best. This is the best community girls that have been fired. We're so cool guys.

[Laura Brown]

We're awesome.

[Christina O'Neill]

Cool girls signify means anything, you know, out in the world, fired or fire.

[Laura Brown]

Am I right?

[Ashley Hess]

Were you the Oprah thing, Were you silent or were you silenced? Just hanging in the Louvre.

[Laura Brown]

He was like, is she gonna ask you that? And you're like, well, were you fire.

[Ashley Hess]

Or are you fire?

[Christina O'Neill]

In our case, we're both.

[Laura Brown]

Yes. Sorry, what was the question.

[Ashley Hess]

Girl boss Too close to the sun. Okay, well just. We'll let you guys plug whatever if you obviously the book wherever it's sold but tell people where they can follow you whatever you have before to plug whatever you want to do.

[Laura Brown]

Follow our growing network at allthe coolgirls get fired on Instagram and TikTok and it's growing real fast and that's where the real success is. I think I'm at Laura Bright 99. Christina's at Christina O' Neill and you can go to a bookstore. We've heard of those.

[Ashley Hess]

Exactly.

[Laura Brown]

And we're also on the Internet booksellers and we. Yeah. This week we were from named national bestseller.

[Raina Greenberg]

So congrats.

[Laura Brown]

Keep on coming.

[Ashley Hess]

Keep on.

[Laura Brown]

Cool girls.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm so emotional. I know we got to get working on our book.

[Raina Greenberg]

We the minute Ashley's getting married this week and she. She mentioned the. Our book that we are going to do and she. She said. I said the minute you get married, we are right.

[Ashley Hess]

We've got it. It's in the words. Okay guys. Girls gotta eat Dot com tickets to our live shows is in New York and LA in December. Girls got you podcast on Instagram and Tik Tok. You guys, you have to come Tik Tok. I'm Ash Hess. Raina is Raina Greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube Share this episode with a friend and we will see you Thursday get fired.

[Raina Greenberg]

Have a good week. Bye bye.

[Christina O'Neill]

Crying.