Breakup Bootcamp with Amy Chan (re-release)

Summary

Girls Gotta Eat – "Breakup Bootcamp with Amy Chan" (Re-release)

Episode Date: September 1, 2025

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Overview: Turning Breakup Pain into Empowerment

In this beloved re-release, Ashley Hesseltine and Rayna Greenberg revisit their 2019 conversation with relationship expert and "Breakup Bootcamp" founder Amy Chan. With equal parts humor and emotional honesty, the hosts and Amy dissect the agony of heartbreak, explore how to reframe pain into growth, and offer actionable, science-based tools for moving on. The episode is both an intimate story of personal transformation and a practical guide to healing—one that listeners have revisited time and again for its rawness, relatability, and wisdom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Amy’s Story: From Devastation to Empowerment

[03:46 - 11:29]

• Amy recounts the end of her “dream” relationship through infidelity, leading to a profound identity crisis and depression.
• She describes the double mourning of a partner and the imagined future:

  “Not only was I mourning the loss of our relationship, I was mourning the loss of the future and this plan that I held onto for dear life.” (Amy, [04:39])

• The healing pivot came after about 1.5 years, when a friend challenged her to reconsider her narrative, shifting from victimhood to agency.
• Memorable moment: Amy explains writing an accountability letter to her ex, sparking her own empowerment.

2. Heartbreak is Physical—and Temporary

[07:43 - 12:35]

• Amy summarizes research showing acute emotional pain lasts about eight weeks, with heartbreak activating brain areas akin to drug withdrawal.

  “You’re physically in withdrawal…your body is used to getting doses of dopamine and oxytocin from this person...and then you don’t get it anymore.” (Amy, [08:17])

• Discusses strategies for allowing these symptoms to subside without acting on emotional impulses (like calling/texting an ex).

3. Body-Based Tools to Survive the ‘Crazy’

[12:35 - 19:51]

• Amy emphasizes that time alone doesn’t heal—the roots often lie in deeper wounds and childhood patterns.
• Outlines a step-by-step protocol:
  • State Change: Physically shake out adrenaline/cortisol (“excuse yourself and just shake, shake, shake for a couple of minutes”).
  • Breathwork: The 3–5–7 breath (in for 3, hold for 5, out for 7) to reset the nervous system.
  • The 90-Second Rule: Emotions physically pass in 90 seconds; the rest is “the stories you’re attaching.” Pause before reacting.

  “90 seconds is the amount of time that it takes for an emotion to actually move through your body. Anything extra is the stories that you're attaching to that emotion.” (Amy, [16:14])

• Hosts share real experiences with delayed email/text responses to reinforce the power of pausing.

4. Rewiring Narratives and Chemistry

[20:29 - 33:43]

• Amy encourages separating feelings from facts and advises writing out only the factual story for clarity.
• She introduces the idea of “rewiring your chemistry compass”—intentionally dating healthy partners, even when it initially feels “boring” or repulsive due to ingrained attraction to chaos, until healthy becomes familiar and desirable.

“If your relationship history hasn’t been very healthy, it’s possible that your chemistry compass is broken.” (Amy, [27:49])

5. Drama Isn’t Passion—Busting Relationship Myths

[34:12 - 38:03]

• The group discusses how early relational chaos leads people to confuse drama or anxiety for love and passion.
• Amy explains the trap of “love addiction” and how pop culture (Disney, love songs) normalizes unhealthy dynamics.

6. Pie Chart: A Tool for Balanced Identity

[59:19 - 61:09]

• Amy shares a powerful exercise: Divide your “pie” of life (relationship, work, friends, self-care, hobbies). Most women fill 60-70% of their “pie” with relationship energy—often losing themselves in the process.

“...Decision after decision, limit after limit that you breach... you get to a point where suddenly it’s just all relationship.” (Amy, [60:27])

7. Rituals and Letting Go

[62:17 - 64:00]

• At Bootcamp, participants write letters to their exes that include:
  • The facts of what happened
  • Their own accountability
  • Lessons learned
  • What they’re letting go, forgiving, and grateful for
• The letter is then burned—a cathartic, ritualized ending.
• Other self-reflection exercises: Pros and cons lists (Ashley), reframing pain with gratitude, and celebrating growth post-breakup.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “What I thought was the worst thing that ever happened to me. I can now look back in retrospect, and that was the best thing that has ever happened to me.”
  —Amy Chan ([06:39])
• “Breakups are the shakeup you need to redirect your life.”
  —Amy Chan ([11:29])
• “Your feelings aren’t facts.”
  —Amy Chan ([19:48])
• “Avoid contact if you can…you need a new reality without your partner in it.”
  —Amy Chan ([20:41])
• “Healthy love is the same whether you’re getting it from friends or family…Healthy love is consistent, peaceful, generous.”
  —Amy Chan ([37:11])
• “Our greatest lesson in this lifetime is to practice opening our hearts. Even when it hurts. Especially when it hurts.”
  —Amy Chan ([45:20])
• “Sometimes the breakup is the shakeup you need.”
  —Ashley Hesseltine ([11:29])
• “If you broke up with this person, what would you have? If it’s nothing, that ain’t good.”
  —Ashley Hesseltine ([61:49])

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Amy Chan’s Breakup Bootcamp: What It Is & How It Works

[50:16 - 58:16]

• A four-day retreat (Hudson, NY, expanding to CA), founded by Amy, with a team of 14 experts (psychologists, hypnotists, energy healers, even a dominatrix specializing in power dynamics).
• Science meets spirituality: programming runs from 8:30am to midnight, alcohol/drug/phone-free, home-cooked meals, deep group bonding.
• Focus is on rewiring beliefs, nervous system regulation, identifying core wounds, supportive community, and practicing new relationship habits.
• Long-term support via WhatsApp and monthly meetups.
• Amy’s site: renewbreakupbootcamp.com
  Instagram: @missamychan

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Practical Tools & Exercises Shared

Timestamps refer to key explanations:

• Physical “Shake” for Stress Release — [13:00]
• 3-5-7 Breath Protocol — [14:00]
• 90-Second Emotion Rule — [16:14]
• Letter-Burning Ritual — [62:17]
• Pie Chart Life Audit — [59:19]
• Stop-Sign Visualization to Halt Rumination/Fantasy — [67:48]

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On Building a Life Beyond Romance

[54:41 - 61:36]

• After breakup, focus on “finding your identity”—build new interests, fortify friendships, invest in yourself, and reimagine who you could be independent of a partner.
• Reinforces that every breakup can be a catalyst for positive transformation.
• Examples include Raina going to culinary school & Ashley starting stand-up, both after major heartbreaks.

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On Future-Tripping & Fantasy Relationships

[66:01 - 68:56]

• Amy warns about creating relationships in your head—daydreaming about “the future” with someone before the reality aligns.

  “We create a relationship in our heads...Your body can't tell the difference between what's happened in the past, the present, and the future.” (Amy, [66:01])

• Shares the “stop-sign” technique for halting obsessive or fantasy thinking: visualize a red stop sign, then list things you’re grateful for.
• The importance of keeping busy and cultivating a full life (“pick up a book!”) to curtail unproductive fixation.

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Real Talk: On Friendship, Humor & Final Advice

[71:08 - end]

• Heartfelt discussion that most women, in hindsight, are grateful for breakups, as they foster growth.
• Final note: “If that person doesn’t want to be with you, you shouldn’t want to be with them. You deserve somebody that wants to be with you.” ([65:32])
• Amy’s social/contact info recapped.

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Summary Takeaways

• Breakups are universally painful but can be powerful catalysts for growth if navigated with awareness.
• Emotional pain is normal, fleeting, and can be managed with somatic (body-based) and mental tools.
• Patterns of unhealthy love often stem from childhood and can be rewired by intentionally seeking and choosing health.
• Your identity should be diversified—don’t let romantic partnership comprise your entire self.
• Community, ritual, and humor (especially with girlfriends!) are key to healing and moving forward.
• Real relationships are built, not fantasized; stay present, pause before reacting, and audit your own patterns with compassion.

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For more on Amy Chan and Breakup Bootcamp, visit renewbreakupbootcamp.com and follow her at @missamychan on Instagram. For ongoing support and laughs, find Ashley and Rayna at @girlsgottaeatpodcast.

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Transcript

[A]

Everything clicked, and I shifted and reframed my relationship with what had happened, and I went from being a victim to being empowered.

[B]

This podcast is a Dear Media Production.

[C]

Hi, guys.

[B]

Hi, guys.

[C]

Welcome back to sort of another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

[B]

Yeah. So it is Labor Day that this drops, and typically we would take it off, but we thought, let's just release an old classic. So we dipped into the archives and found one of our absolute favorites and is the very first time we had Amy Chan on to talk about how to get over and heal after a breakup. And this was before COVID It was like 2019, and her book, Breakup Boot Camp, was about to come out, and she was doing her retreats, and she shared her whole story. And it's just. It's such a good episode right now. Like, I was, like, listening back today and was like, we were, like, just so enthralled by her, like, crying and just blown away.

[C]

I still remember the first email I got from Amy. We got. And then she called and we talked, and I was like, ashley, you're going to love her so much. It's probably one of the episodes that people reference the most, even to this day, when they're like, I love this girl's Gotty episode. And I think everybody can relate to the extreme pain of a breakup and the way she speaks of it, writes about it, has researched it, done retreats, all the things. I mean, she is just incredible and has been on the show many times since. But this episode was.

[B]

Yeah, she's been on. She's been on twice since, but this was the first time we recorded with her in person. And this will be audio only today. This was prior to our video era, so you guys can just listen to it. And it's just. She really walks through, like, the way it feels in your body to go through heartbreak and how to get it out of your body and all these actionable steps to take to get through tremendous pain after a breakup. And her life is a little different now, but she is in a wonderful relationship with someone that we love.

[C]

We love him.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I think in the episode she says she is in a good relationship and it's healthy and it's stable, but, like, you know, five years later, she's in a relationship with someone who we're, like, obsessed with. So just know that, you guys. Just know that. And her book is out. It's been out, obviously, Breakup Bootcamp. And her Next retreat is November 13th to 16th. And you can find this all on, like, her website and her Instagram and she'll plug that at the end of the interview like we always have done. So we hope you guys enjoy it.

[C]

Yes, enjoy, guys. And enjoy your Labor Day.

[B]

Here we go.

[C]

So without further ado, somebody very special with us in the house studio with us and Dewey. She reached out to us. I got on the phone with her. I couldn't stop listening to her talk. She is a relationship columnist for the last over a decade for publications like the Huffington Post. She is the chief heart hacker of her own company that she started called the Breakup Boot Camp, which we will tell you guys about. She also has the best hair of anybody who's ever sat on this couch. Sorry, Ashley.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Yikes. It's a flex. So welcome. I was like, how is she going to take this? Welcome to the studio, Amy Chan.

[A]

Hi. Thanks for having me.

[C]

Thanks for being here. We are so excited.

[A]

I'll take the compliment on the hair.

[B]

Your hair is incredible.

[C]

But I do want you to talk a little about what you do, because speaking with you, you're very clinical about the way that you speak about love and relationships. You've researched this? I mean, I thought you were a psychiatrist when I was talking to you on the phone, and you're not. So how did you, like, amass this type of. How did you become. You talk about who you are.

[A]

Yeah. So ever since I was a little girl, I was able to master everything. But the one thing that I couldn't figure out was love. And so I set out to do what every high achieving Asian does, which is, I'm gonna study the shit out of this.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And so I did. I became a relationship columnist at the age of 25, and I just dived into the science and psychology of relationships, because heartache after heartache, I couldn't figure it out.

[C]

So you started writing about dating and relationships, and then your story is really. Should we talk about her story?

[B]

I. Yeah, I'm dying to hear it again. I think Raina and I just gave me the briefing and I mean, I'd heard. I'd heard of you before we talked to you, but I don't know the full story. I obviously haven't heard it from you, so I am dying to hear your heartbreak story, Amy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And the catalyst for how you, like, built this incredible business.

[A]

Totally. So I always had the mentality of date, date to marry. I mean, I would think I was dating to marry till from the age of, like, 12. And then I finally thought my dreams were coming true. I fell madly in love with a guy living in Vancouver and we had our life set. We were gonna eventually have children together. He was a business guy. We even talked about the fact that when we had kids, I would just write as a hobby. So everything was set out for me. And this plan and this dream that I had vied for since I was a little girl was finally coming true. And then one day, that read reality of mine came crashing down. And through infidelity, our relationship broke apart. And when the relationship fell apart, I completely fell apart. I was so young minded at the time that I put pretty much all of my identity in him and in us. And when I didn't have that, I didn't know who I was. And not only was I mourning the loss of our relationship, I was mourning the loss of the future and this plan that I held onto for dear life. And it was bad. I fell into depression. I had panic attacks. I had thoughts of su suicide. And I thought I was going absolutely crazy.

[C]

Yeah, I feel really choked.

[B]

I'm just getting, like, really emotional because I just feel like your story is so many people's story. Okay, keep going.

[C]

Ashley and I are fully crying.

[B]

I know, I know.

[A]

I see the tears. I.

[B]

And you know, just thinking of our listeners, like, there's girls listening to this in their car that are like, oh, my God, that's my story. Yeah, I just had a panic attack last night. You know what I mean?

[A]

Totally. And it's.

[B]

And how old were you?

[A]

I was 29, nine when it happened.

[B]

Which is like, right? You're like, oh, I'm about to be 30. Like, my life, I'm gonna marry this guy, and then we're gonna have a family.

[C]

And then, of course, conversely, like, I can't believe I have to start over at this age.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Girls are like, I'm so old to start over. You're not, by the way. But like, yeah, well, my fiance left me at 28. That was my thought anyways. Please.

[A]

Yeah. And. And yeah, this idea that I. I wasted my time, my prime, on you. How unjust unfair the universe was. I remember, like, in a fit of another panic attack, crying and asking God or universe or whoever was out there and like, how unfair this is. Like, I volunteer, I donate to charity. Why is this happening to me? And what I thought was the worst thing that ever happened to me. I can now look back in retrospect, and that was the best thing that has ever happened to me. It took me quite a while to get back on my feet. And I tried everything. Therapy, yoga retreats, meditation, psychics. And it wasn't until about a year, year and a half later where kind of everything clicked and I shifted and reframed my relationship with what had happened, and I went from being a victim to being empowered. I'd love to tell you guys the story of how that happened.

[B]

Girl, the floor is yours. This is my favorite episode.

[C]

You love it. I was like, ashley, I just got off the phone with this girl's gonna be our best episode.

[A]

So, I mean, so, yeah, after a period of time, the, the, the immediate intense emotions started to subside. If you look at research, this usually takes around the eight week mark is when those crazy physical emotions.

[B]

Right. Start to subside, like you feel in your body. Totally. Like, I'm, I, I personally, when I'm in that place, I couldn't even, like, work out because my heart would start racing. I'd be like, I'm in a panic attack on a spin bike. Like, this is bad. I could only do yoga. But like, I, like, I always talk of it as like, what's feeling literally in your body. When people are like, heartbreak, it feels like a hole in your heart.

[A]

Yeah. And you're flooded with cortisol and stress hormones and adrenaline, and so your body is out of whack. So basically, if they did an FMRI study on your scan on your brain, they would see that the same part of your brain is activated as a drug user, feeding for the next fix. You're physically in withdrawal. And so it's super important for people to understand what's happening during this time, because you're actually not going crazy. Your body is used to getting your doses of dopamine and oxytocin from this person, from the text messages, from the hugs, from the makeup sex. And then you don't get it anymore. And your body's in shock and it's like, what the fuck's going on? Go and get it. Go scroll their Instagram, look at your text messages, show up at their house.

[C]

Show up at their house, maybe burn it down.

[B]

Show up at their house with the text messages and the Instagrams keep telling.

[A]

The story over and over again. All these things is your body's way of trying to hang on and get that sort of a dose. And so eventually, if, if you stop contact, if you stop scrolling their feet, if you start showing up at their house, the neural pathways start to prune away. And that's when you start to kind of be able to get back into your body. And so that's what happened to me. But I was still one angry bitch. I Was really horrible to date. I was super close for business. And this went on for about a year and a half where even though I was over the initial angst and anger, I was very resentful. And one day, a year and a half later, I was telling a friend of mine who hadn't seen for a long time, and I was telling the story of the betrayal, how awful and how unjust everything was, and he just stopped me. And he's like, so, Amy, does this story serve you? And I'm like, no. He's like, okay, can you tell me some other times when he was loving and he was trustworthy and tell me some examples? And so I did. I was like, oh, well, there was this time. And there was this time I started smiling and laughing. And it was right then I realized that in my tunnel vision of making him the villain could see was the darkness and the anger and the pain, because that's all I was looking for. And we human beings are very great at finding evidence to prove whatever it is that you want to find. And so I realized that I wasn't able to change the events of my history, but I could choose to change the story I was going to attach to those events. And I went home that day, and I wrote him a letter of accountability of my part of the facts of what happened, not my interpretation of what I learned, of what I was letting go of what I forgave and what I was grateful for. Because. Because of that breakup, it enabled me to stop and say, whose dream was I trying to create? Was this just my parents dream of getting married by this age to the entrepreneur, or was it my own? And I was like, wow, I have a blank canvas. How am I gonna paint this? And then I'm gonna. Ended up moving out of my hometown. I now fast forward, have my own company helping people with breakups. So it's amazing what can happen when your original plan falls out of place, because sometimes the breakup is the shakeup you need to redirect your life.

[B]

I mean, that's what I mean. I moved here. We started this podcast. I have my breakup for. To thank for my entire career and my life. And Rayna, I mean, she ended an engagement. What would have happened if she just, like. Like, marry this dude?

[C]

Yeah. And the first day we met, actually, we talked about this on last week's episode two weeks ago, about the date that we met. And, like, we had dinner, and then we went inside, we were with, like, a couple other women, and we just stayed up all night long talking about Relationships. It's like what connected us was like these painful situations, but like, it grew a whole business for us.

[B]

But then here we are, these women that were thriving in our careers and sitting on the beach in Aruba talking about this stuff, you know, like something went right here for us to be here and doing this. I feel like I have so many questions about just your story. So, okay, the two. The two months of this, like, body pain and all this stuff, people are asking, like, well, I can't stop. Like I'm a crazy person. Like, are you of the mindset of you. Okay, just deal. Just go through it. Time will fix your crazy. Or do you feel like there are tools and tips for women to stop the crazy behavior? Or do you think you. You're just gonna have to go through this?

[A]

Yeah, great question. So there's a few levels to this answer. Time doesn't heal the wounds that were buried beneath the original trauma. Right? So when I look back at my breakup and how I fell apart into a million pieces, it wasn't because of that person. It was a band aid that got ripped off of all of the wounds I had never dealt with since childhood and the compound trauma. And so suddenly I had to deal with it. And I pointed to the finger that, oh, it's all your fault. It's your fault that I don't feel enough. It's your fault that I put my identity in us and it fell apart. It's your fault that my house completely crumbled down because you didn't love me enough or you didn't behave the way I wanted you to. And that's what we deal with at breakup boot camp. The women who come think they're coming to heal from their ex. They're not. It's recycled pain. We recreate the emotional experiences of how we were wounded as children. And. And so if we don't figure out what is a subconscious foundation of the wounds, the patterns and the belief systems, we will create the same emotional experience just with different people. And so I think at a time of a breakup, there's a few things. When you are feeling the feels of the crazy, there's a tool that can help you with this. And it gets better through time. And what you need to do first is you have an over activated nervous system. So if you think about, say, a gazelle in the wild, when they see something that could be possibly dangerous, they freeze. And what's happening is they're being flooded with stress hormones. What they'll do is they'll eventually start Shaking. And then they'll just completely gallivant off as nothing happened. Human beings are wired the same way. When we feel a threat and separation is a threat, that shitty Instagram pic that they've taken with some other person is a threat. We, we feel this surge of angst in us, which is like your survival is at stake. So you're flooded with cortisol and adrenaline. What you need to do is you need to let that get out of your body. So the very first thing you want to do is do a state change. The quickest way to do this is excuse yourself to the bathroom and just shake, shake, shake, shake for a couple of minutes. And what that's going to do is it's going to help your body rid the excess stress hormones. After that is when you can, can do something to start calming down. And very simply, the next thing to do is to take deep breaths. What I Recommend is a 3, 5, 7 breath. You breathe in for 3, you hold for 5, you breathe out for 7. If it's hard for you to remember that, just breathe out longer than it is than you breathe in. What that does, it starts to calm your nervous system down. So it's a two part hack, which is really helpful because when you're feeling a surge of anxiety, it's pretty hard to just meditate your way out of it. You need to actually change your state.

[B]

You want to act on it. You want to, you want to like, send the text, do the get in the car, or do the crazy thing. So I think where people go wrong, I've been there. Is just going, just doing it. Like, no deep breaths, no shake, no get it out of your body.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because that's what Kelly would say to me. She's like, actually, you got to get this out of your body for, you know, long term. It's like yoga and things like that. But just like, I think people are like, like, I can't, I'm gonna do it.

[C]

I just need it. Like, you only. So many girls are like, I'm just gonna send the text. I don't even care what the response is. I just need to get it out.

[B]

Because you're on drugs.

[C]

You're like, absolutely, yeah.

[B]

You're in so many pray mode.

[C]

So many friends of mine have like written that email and sent it and they're like, I don't even care what it, what the response is. I just needed to get it out in the world.

[B]

And then when you calm down, the next day you're like, oh, you feel worse.

[C]

You were Talking about actual steps you can take.

[B]

Is there something else after your three, five, seven breaths?

[A]

Totally. So another thing, once you are back to a more RA state of mind, hopefully this changing your state and then deep breathing will help you is to remember this. 90 seconds. 90 seconds is the amount of time that it takes for an emotion to actually move through your body. Anything extra is the stories that you're attaching to that emotion. 90 seconds. So what happens is when you feel that first emotion, whether that's anger or anxiety or the panic, we then go, oh my gosh, why is there that person in the Instagram? Oh my gosh, what does this mean? Oh my gosh, they're living best life and I'm not. And then it keeps building and building and that thing turns into a huge mountain. And so what you need to do is understand that the emotional wave will pass. You just have to let it. And most of us are not trained to do so. We are trained to act on whatever that we're feeling. Right. And so part of learning this whole process of emotional regulation which is going to to be so helpful, whether it's about relationships or just life in general, is understanding the art of the pause. And in the beginning it is very hard. But the more you practice, the better you get. And my suggestion is before you send that text, that email, that anything, hold onto it. You can do free form writing and write it all out to get it out of your system. And make a pact to yourself to not send any communication when you are in in low vibe.

[C]

I love that you said this. And something happened to me recently that I haven't talked about on the podcast.

[B]

Because we were so in it.

[C]

But I went through this breakup with this guy Ashly and I talked about on this great episode because you're not the one. And I had emailed him to basically end things and he didn't write me back for four weeks. And he wrote me back the morning we recorded the episode. And so I never talked about how I felt. And I get this email and immediately I opened it up and it's four pages and my immediate response was, cause the whole thing was about how he felt bad. And I start ferociously writing and I'm like explaining my thoughts and my opinions and everything I said. It was like a four page email back to it. And then I was like, okay, let me wait an hour to see how I feel. And in my mind I was like, well, I'm not gonna change how I feel. This is just how I feel. I let 12 hours go by. And then I was fucking pissed. Then I was like, I cannot believe you waited four weeks to write me back. Take your feelings and shove em up your ass. I was so mad. So then I wrote that email and I was like, I'm not going to change my mind. Like, this is exactly how I'm going to feel about this forever. But I didn't send the email. And then the next morning, I swear to God, 24 hours went by because I was like, let me just wait. 24 hours went by. I woke up the next morning and I was like, I don't care about this. Like, I'm not mad at this person anymore. I don't care about this person anymore. Like, let's just turn the page and be done with it. And I ended up just writing back, water under the bridge. Enjoy. It was on a trip. Water under the bridge. Enjoy your trip. And like, I'm so glad that I waited because like all those thoughts and feelings I went through were not how I was going to end up feeling. I haven't thought about this person since. Like I just genuinely don't keep on. I love what you said about waiting because how I felt in the moment was not how I long term feel, if that makes sense.

[B]

Well, and I'm. I've tried to explain this not so eloquently on the podcast, so I'm so glad you're here. I think people may be hearing this for the first time, which I had to learn from for myself a few years back. Of like it is what you're feeling at that moment is not your real. What is it you're thinking all the. A different part of your brain, even like the frontal lobe or something when these things are happening. So it's actually not how you're going to feel in, I don't know, 90 seconds to 24 hours, I guess.

[A]

Yeah. Remembering that your feelings aren't facts.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Right. It's so simple but like, oh shit, it's true. And one of the exercises we do at Renew is we have the women tell their stories and I teach them how to tell their stories without re traumatizing themselves. And they start off with their original story and their story is filled with interpretations and assumptions and the. How dare you. You took four weeks. You must have been an asshole. Like all those things, we fill in the blanks and then we have them actually simplify the story with just the facts. And then you take out all those assumptions and the interpretations and the emotional charge schedule gets smaller and smaller and smaller. So it's just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Another thing to remind yourself to take the pause to understand. Our feelings aren't facts. You're not wrong for feeling them, but it doesn't mean that that is a fact of the situation.

[B]

Okay, and are those your main steps?

[A]

I think, yeah, there's that. And I think the best thing, too, after there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Avoid contact if you can. Basically, you have neural pathways that have been wired together for months, decades, years. And you need time for neural pathways to start to prune away, to create new ones. So you need a new reality without your partner in it. And if you're constantly going back to this person having makeup sex or even rehashing old arguments, you're not allowing those neural pathways to prune away. And so as much as you can, and sometimes you can't because you have children or shared pets or whatnot, what I would suggest then is just try to keep your interactions limited to whatever the logistics are, but don't add emotional charge to it. When you have great news, don't go to them. You have bad news, don't go to them.

[B]

Yep, we've. We did. I mean, I. A lot of it. Stuff we've talked about. You. You always share these. These memes with them. Don't do it. Send it to your friend. You always watch the show together. Stop watching it or find someone else to watch it with. I think people get wrapped up in, like, we had these things or these habits and traditions. How do I stop doing them? You just do. You're gonna have. You're gonna have to. They're. You're broken up.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I think people obviously have. This will obviously come up when you have a lot to drink, you know, and you're like, what's the. What's the big deal? I'll just send the text. And I've actually. I'm so proud of me. I'm so proud of drunk me the last, like, six months. Because when I sent that guy that email and I didn't hear back for weeks, Ashley and I went on a vacation. And then I went another vacation with my family. And I was like, I'm gonna be drinking continuously. I'm not hearing back. And I'm furious. And I had to, like, look myself in the mirror and be like, do not communicate with this person while you were drinking. Like, you will not be happy with it when you wake up. And, like, I feel like when I'm drunk now, I'm like, I remember having that talk with sober me. Almost. And just being like, like, you will not be happy when you wake up that you did this. And when you're drunk, like, you think like, what's the big deal? But like, I don't know, I. It's a weird exercise, but I just looked in the mirror and I was like, don't do this good. And you're gonna wake up and not.

[B]

Appreciate yourself in the mirror. Also, guys, move away. Move to New York. That's what I did. I just one quick question for you that might be. I don't know if it's too personal. The infidelity, Was this a one off thing or an affair?

[A]

It was a one off thing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

With someone I knew, which.

[B]

Okay, well, that's brutal. But I think for me this is a different topic. But I just, I think if it was a long term affair and you came home and lied to me every single day for however long, I don't know if I'd ever be able to get past the anger. I don't know. I mean, there's. That's probably a different type of thing, you know? Like, I think you were able to reflect and be like, just because he did this thing, he's not a terrible person. I mean, is that something that you tell yourself now?

[A]

We're actually really good friends now. Oh, okay. And he jokes he should have shares in my company. He's probably listening to this right now. Shout to out. Yeah, I have a very different view on infidelity now. Back then, it was the worst thing you could ever do and you're horrible and the relationship is over. I now have witnessed couples who have become stronger working through the infidelity because infidelity brought up issues that were in the relationship that weren't discussed. Of course, I don't condone infidelity. I think if you have a commitment to a type of partnership and monogamy, I believe in honoring that. If I was to be cheated on in my current relationship, I don't think I would say it's completely over, but it would totally depend.

[B]

Do you think you guys would be friends today if he had had like a full blown, like months affair, other woman side piece, coming home and like looking you in the face and being dishonest every day?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You think you could. Okay, could have worked out.

[A]

It wasn't the magnitude of what happened, which is why I have a different, different way of seeing my. My relationship with my ex. I have come to a place of complete gratitude because if that didn't happen, the entire thing, I would not be where I am today. And so I just have gratitude when I think about what had happened between us, which might be. Might be crazy, but, I mean, no.

[B]

I think about that all the time. It's. It's like, this wouldn't. We wouldn't have this if it wasn't for our exes.

[C]

My ex. Ex, he sleeps at night wonderfully thinking that when I saw. I saw him recently, and he was like, I just. I know I did you a favor by leaving you. And I just. I'm like, well, if that helps you sleep at night, buddy, whatever. But, yeah, I. I love that. And I. I think it's also, like, an interesting message, which is like, you can get through trauma, and if you want, still have the person be a part of your life. It's not for everybody, totally. But you can heal and forgive somebody for something that they've done to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I like that message a lot. And so I love what you're saying about short term. In the short term, here's eight weeks. Here's what you can do to feel better. But I also would love to talk about long term. Let's redefine your life. Let's figure out how to move on with yourself or with another partner, if you want to talk about that a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. The quicker you can reframe your past relationship from a place of victimization to a place of empowerment is the quicker you're going to get rid of the suffering and move on to create a healthier life. And so the people come to breakup Bootcamp. We encourage them to actually become like scientists, and our exes reveal really important information on what's happening on a subconscious level. As I mentioned before, the emotional experience is going to keep repeating until you figure out what is that subconscious belief that's causing you to create these same scenarios. In my case, I grew up in a household where there was chaos all the time. My father was never around. He was a busy entrepreneur. I was trying to always earn his love and affection. If I got good grades, sometimes I would get that. And it was very inconsistent. And so that became what I was familiar with. That was my model of love. And so it's not any coincidence that every single person, Person that I felt attracted to and chemistry with were people who were wounding me in the exact same way. And so I really encourage anyone who's going through a breakup or if you just are not happy with your relationship outcomes, is to just assess, what is the pattern? What is the emotional experience that keeps repeating? Are you resentful Are you over giving? Are you playing the hero and trying to save someone? Are you trying to change someone? Because chances are there's a belief system that's causing that behavior and that's causing that outcome to repeat.

[C]

I'm shocked by everything you say.

[B]

How do you do this? I mean, obviously break a boot camp and obviously I think in therapy, right?

[A]

Yeah. So of course there's so many different healing modalities. So from therapy to hypnotherapy to psychedelics, and you'll need to figure out what is the most helpful for you. But I think just to start before you get into all the professional services is really just taking stock of your relationship history.

[B]

Right. Like, what did you do?

[A]

Yeah. So if your relationship history hasn't been very healthy, it's possible that your chemistry compass is broken. So your chemistry compass is something I've coined that really, really points you into the direction of who you are drawn to. And so if you grew up with an unhealthy model of what love feels like, you are going to likely, as an adult, keep going for people who mirror that same type of model of love as a child. So for example, if it's chaotic when you were young and you equated chaos with love, then it's likely you're going to get into relationships that are very chaotic or if you're in something healthy, you might self sabotage or you'll think healthy mates are very boring. And so I knew that my chemistry compass was broken and the way that this happened was just person after person. I was having the same experience over and over again and I was really frustrated. And one day I had a guy friend of mine reach out to me on Facebook chat and said, hey, Amy, I know we've been friends for a bit and it seems like we have very common values and a shared life vision of what we want in the future. And would you be open to exploring something on a more romantic sense? And I remember I was in the office and I had a physical reaction. I was like, oh my God. And my team was like, oh my God, are you okay?

[C]

Was this a negative or. I can't tell if it's negative or positive. Physical repulse.

[B]

I could feel that. I could feel the repulsion.

[C]

I could feel it. He really spoke like that. This isn't your current boyfriend, right? Oh my God. She's like, and that's my boyfriend. I was like, I'm not gonna insult this. Your boyfriend who, I mean, who talks like that?

[A]

I know. And you know what?

[C]

He.

[A]

He's an amazing guy.

[B]

I know guys that talk like that, like, they're. They're nice guys. You know, we're. We're used to guys, not all, but being assholes. So he was like, I'm going to be nice and respectful and share the way I feel about this.

[A]

And we're like, oh, my God, why.

[C]

Are you so obsessed with me?

[B]

Why are you so obsessed with me?

[A]

Right? So here's a guy who's intentionally wanting to date me. Super respectful, articulate, and I feel disgust. That's not normal. It's a very abnormal reaction to the point where my team members are like, are you okay? They thought something wrong died. And I'm like, if I'm reacting to this, to this good looking, successful, nice guy, there's something really wrong here. And so I did what every relationship columnist does, and I did an experiment on myself, and I set out to rewire my chemistry compass. So what I did was I said, okay, I am going to be open to going out on dates with any guy that intentionally wants to date me, is healthy and, like, of the nice kind. And that's what I did. I went on probably. I met seven different guys, and I went on multiple dates, and it wasn't working. And seven months went by. I was like, this experiment sucks. Like, it's not working, really. And then one day.

[B]

These guys are boring.

[A]

I'm like, this is so boring. There's no chemistry growing. Fuck. One day was having dinner with this guy. And early on in the beginning, I had communicated like, look, I'm not attracted to you, but, like, I'm open to hanging out as homies if you want to keep hanging. And he's like, no pressure. Like, you. You're an awesome human. I just want you in my life. So I was like, okay, no pressure.

[B]

So I just, hey, I'm not attracted to you. But if you want to hang as homies. He's like, God damn it. That's like the biggest boner killer I've ever heard.

[C]

But he was like, I'll wear her down. I'm gonna stick around and wear her down. If this is your boyfriend, of course, probably I will.

[A]

It is.

[C]

We're married.

[B]

No.

[A]

And then so basically we would just hang out as friends. And it was about eight months after this initial conversation. We were having dinner, and it was probably the. Yeah, seventh time I hung out with him. We were having dinner, and I remember this distinct moment when I looked across a table, and I was like, I'm.

[C]

Never gonna suck your dick, Raina.

[B]

I Think it's gonna be the exact opposite. I am on the edge of my seat. Amy. Continue, Raina. God damn it.

[A]

So I looked across the table, and I just remember, I was like, you look hot. Oh, my God.

[B]

I knew it.

[C]

Nailed it.

[A]

And I'm like, what the fuck? And I felt attracted to him. And what I realized was that through time, I started to develop feelings for this person. Not because of all the superfic stuff or the intensity and the high, high, low lows that I was used to. It was because of his character and his soul and how he consistently showed up. And he was a good guy. And I didn't feel any pressure when I was with him because he was totally accepting that we were friends. And we dated for a bit, and we didn't end up getting into a relationship, and we're still friends to this day. But that was the beginning of me being able to rewire my chemistry. Now, would that have happened if those seven guys before him didn't? No, because what was happening is I started to become more familiar with what healthy felt like human beings. Like, what is familiar. And so I wasn't gonna go from super toxic, dysfunctional attraction towards the bad boy towards a person who was always unavailable to super healthy. It's just not gonna happen that way. Degree by degree, my chemistry compass started to shift. And since then, the people I've been dating have been super healthy, and I'm now in a really healthy relationship with an awesome human.

[C]

So we actually were talking about this in the car this morning, Ashley and I, on the way to this event about, like, can you love somebody so passionately and fight with somebody so passionately and have a super, I guess, quote, unquote, unhealthy relationship, and then you meet the next person and you feel like it's boring because it's, quote, unquote healthy? Like, we're not fighting. There isn't that. I don't know. Like, do you think people. I guess my question is, like, do you feel like people confuse drama and fighting with passion and love? And so when they find a relationship that's very even keeled, they think it's boring?

[A]

Totally. I think this comes back to Chemistry Compass, where. And there's other terms for it. There's limerence, there's love addiction. We all have a degree of love addiction. When we're in the throes of the beginning parts of love, which is obsession over the person, the feeling of high dopamine rushes. When the affection is returned, you feel amazing. And when it's not you feel horrible. Some degree of this is normal. However, if you are on the other side of the spectrum and you're always chasing the high, or you're always obsessive over someone and you're creating make believe by putting fantasy in between because you're actually not in relationship, you're not creating intimacy if you're in relationship with a fantasy. This is unhealthy and this is dysfunctional. And it's hard because our love song are Disney movies. All of this stuff is telling you that the Romeo and Juliet story is what love is. High, low, intense. Do you like me? Do you not love me? We're torn because our families can't stand each other. There's conflict. That is not what love is. And so if you equate an activated nervous system with love and you don't create awareness that that is dysfunctional, you are going to continue continuously have the same loop over and over again.

[B]

Yeah, and I, I like used the word homeostasis earlier, which I just, I love that of like, did you, was your normal growing up chaos and trauma and dysfunction? And I mean, I was in a relationship with somebody that, that was their past and it wasn't with me. And I, I, I went to therapy and I feel like she was, she was trying to get out of me. Like, do you subconsciously like the highs and the lows? And I was like, I do not, I hate this. Like, I did not grow people. I have never yelled like this in my life. Like, I come from stability. I want stability. I missed the beginning when we dated and we were normal and not fighting, you know, And I, I just, I think a lot of people, that's not the case. They're like, yeah, this is my normal and this is my, this is what I grew up feeling comfortable in. And I mean, that's a whole nother topic of how you rewire that.

[A]

Right?

[B]

I mean, I guess that's what you just explained that you did. But I think some people have it worse, you know, And I mean, how do they find a quote unquote normal, stable relationship, which is kind of just the rewiring, I think, you know, and.

[A]

I think a good tip for people that you can just even start reflecting on now is if you have a history of unhealthy relationships, take stock of what does healthy look like. Because if you don't know how it feels like, the very first step is to understand what is healthy on a cerebral level. So eventually you can create the experience and feel it on an embodied level. And so What I mean is by this, look at the past relationships that didn't work out and start to write down a list of what is unhealthy. Unhealthy is obsessive. Unhealthy is chaotic. Unhealthy is angst ridden. Unhealthy is wondering, do they like me? Do they not like me? All these things are characteristics of unhealthy. And then write a list of what does healthy look like. You might not have a romantic example, but I'm sure you can find example from friends or family and start writing down how that is. Because healthy love is the same whether you're getting it from friends or family. The last and the romance of it is just one form of the same thing, which is love. And healthy love is supportive. Healthy love is consistent. Healthy love is peaceful. It's calm, it's giving and receiving. It's generous. It doesn't give you this kind of crazy spiral.

[C]

Do you think that there are just people though, that are incapable of that type of state? So you can look for all these things like healthy love versus unhealthy, but there's always gonna be men that just inherently, they don't want to be monogamous. They enjoy having a girlfriend and they enjoy cheating on their girlfriend. There are people, they're just, just. Do you think there's people that can just never give you that?

[A]

I think that there's going to be people that. I think you'll never be able to change someone else. And I think that the, the person who wants to not ever be monogamous and keep playing, like there's nothing wrong with that either. Right. Like they, it might not be my right, but it's also not wrong. And so hopefully they can play with people who share the same relationship model. So. So yeah, I think it's the most important thing is identifying what is unhealthy so that before you take a hundred steps with that person who's showing the red flags of not being monogamous when you want monogamy, of being inconsistent. And you feel the chemistry because you're gonna still feel the chemistry. It's not like suddenly you'll stop feeling it. I still feel chemistry with unavailable hot DJs, which was my thing thing all of my 20s.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But what's different now is with awareness, I choose to not go down a black hole with that person choice.

[C]

It's just, it starts with one date or like one experience. I love that you said that. Like, don't go on the one, don't have the One experience.

[B]

Just don't do it. You know, the pat. I mean, I don't think I'll ever. The guys that I've dated in the past that felt toxic and had these bad patterns, I feel like I can see them from a mile away now. Like, I'm not gonna do. I'm not. That's not what I want. I'm. I want somebody that's done the work. You know, I'm. I'm not trying to save and fix somebody at this point in my life.

[C]

I think unhealthy means something different for other people. And, like, you and I talk about this, like, that feeling when you're at work and you can't listen in a meeting, when you're with your girlfriends and you can't focus or be present. Like, I think people are, like, they mistake that for some kind of, like, drama and chemistry. But, like, that's a terrible feeling. And if you're feeling that and if you're sitting through, like, a work meeting, you can't change, check in, because every second you're like, are they gonna text me? What's gonna go on next? You know, when is the other shoe gonna drop? That's a terrible, unhealthy thing, I think.

[A]

Yeah, I think. And that's a combination of the partner selection and also with your own anxiety. Right. And so I'm not gonna go into attachment theory much, but basically we have an attachment system that's developed by the age of two years old. And. And if you're constantly preoccupied with thoughts of your relationship and you fear abandonment or rejection, it's characteristic of someone who has an anxious attachment style. And so there are ways and therapy to actually become more secure. And I'm sure you guys are gonna get into that in another podcast. I know.

[B]

Sorry, guys. It could be a whole episode on its own, which we do plan on doing, hopefully with the guy that wrote the book. But, I mean, attachment theory, we've touched on a little bit. We talked about it with Carrie Bradshaw and Mr. Big. You know, the iconic relationship of why they did this dance for a decade. We hate that relationship, by the way. Just so we're clear. But what. She has the. What is it called when you have the anxious. Right. And then what's.

[A]

He's an avoidant.

[B]

Right. That's. Yep, there it is.

[C]

We did an episode called Fuck youk, Carrie Bradshaw. It's one of our favorites, and we are going to do episodes about that also. Toxic Relationships. We're going to talk about all that stuff. I think it's really interesting. We all talked about this offline before we started, but like, there's so many women in the, like every city, but I was thinking like New York City that are so successful in every other aspect of their lives. And they're like, why can't I make this work, this one thing that's really. Because I can do friendships, I can do exercise, I could do my job, but I can't do this one thing. And I'd love it if you talked a little bit about that because I think it's just like a deep, dark death hole that we go down.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think that was me exactly. Like I was able to kill it in my career in my friend groups. And what happened was as a child I developed a root belief system that I am not enough. And so I was always trying to earn the love and approval from my parents. And so this coping mechanism to earn validation was great for getting good grades in school, for having multiple jobs, for being an entrepreneur, but not so much translating well into love. And so a lot of these coping mechanisms that successful people have have worked very well to get you successful in achieving. But again, it goes down to what is the root belief system. And so I think it's really important, whether you're a trailblazing CEO or a stay at home mom, or an artist, or young or old, is to just examine what is a possible belief systems that's causing these emotional experiences to repeat over and over again. And what are your coping mechanisms? Because it could be very tricky. You could say, oh fuck guys, I like living best life. I don't need a partner, I don't need anything. Is that really truly where you're at and if that is amazing or is that a coping mechanism? Because at some point you got so hurt and so disappointed that you're like, I can't even be bothered. So your heart is closed. And I know that was for me. I was like, oh, like I'm just living the life. And I'm like dating all these guys and life's amazing, my career's going off. But if I and I even said to myself, like, I'm open for a relationship, but my heart was closed. I was so afraid that that same breaking down that happened seven years ago would happen again. That even though I said I was open minded to be in a relationship, I wasn't because I was constantly going on dates trying to filter people out, like up, oh no, not you. Nope. Three dates in, I'm like, oh, notice that not you. And I thought I'M like, no, no. I'm just so selective now. I'm so woke. But really, it was my way of guarding against creating true intimacy. And the time this changed was I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who got into a relationship, and he. I was like, wow, like, you really jumped into this relationship after being a bachelor for so long. What's going on? And he's like, I just decided I'm gonna jump in and love her with reckless abandon. And this friend of mine sounds like.

[B]

A thing that men do well.

[C]

What's decide they just turned the cab light on.

[B]

She got in.

[A]

What's different with this guy, though, is he's someone who's done so much self work, he meditates every day. Like, he's just such a. He has such a strong foundation. And so even if this relationship didn't work out, his house wouldn't fall apart. He would still be standing so he could love with reckless abandon. And I looked at that with admiration. I said, I can do that too. Because now with all the tools that I have, with having built my foundation, where it's so strong and solid, that if I open up my heart and I get hurt or disappointed, I know I can get back up, and I can get back up pretty quickly. So I made the decision to open up my heart. And the first guy I did this with, I got hurt.

[B]

And.

[A]

And I remember this quote that I say to the woman at breakup boot camp. Our greatest lesson in this lifetime is to practice opening our hearts. Even when it hurts. Especially when it hurts. And I just remember I was so fucking sad. And I was like, I'm gonna listen to that. I'm gonna open my heart, which means I'm gonna have compassion for him and compassion for myself, and I'm gonna get back up. And then I met the guy that I'm with now.

[B]

Can we hear about that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm sure people are curious. How long have you been together? How'd you meet? Just kind of the basics.

[A]

It's pretty new, but I had been single for five years before. Before this wonderful human being. And I think what was really different was I don't know if he was responding to my energy, I was responding to his. But we just both went in with a really open heart. And after our first date, he deleted his dating apps. I followed suit, like, a couple weeks afterwards. And I could feel my old tendencies kind of creeping in. The tendencies to act a little aloof or maybe I should just go on another date with this person just to hedge And I don't put all my energy, all the shit that those books teach you, why men marry bitches, all that stuff. And I was like, why would I do that? Why would I punish this guy who is showing up, who's consistent, who's in his action and his words, showing me that he's interested in pursuing a relationship? I'm not going to do that. And because of that, it's been really healthy and supportive and secure. And our first date, it really developed throughout the entire eight hours we were together. When I first met him, I was like, oh my God, I want to rip your clothes off. I was like, oh, this is interesting and fun. And he's like, oh, do you want to grab a bite? Like, sure, we had dinner. I'm like, oh, this is fun. Okay, cool. You want to go to the next place? Sure, let's go. And that eight hour day ended up over, you know, midnight pizza and a steamy makeout session. And I was like, oh my God, like, I like this guy. And so what I really encourage people out there is be open minded. You know, healthy may not have this crazy intensity in the very beginning. Sometimes things take time to grow. Maybe it's in the course of one day or the course of one week, but just have an open mind that love can be sparked in different ways.

[B]

I agree. We say this all the time. This has been my history with multiple people that I've dated that I. At first I was like, no, absolutely not. For whatever reason, whether it was something that was on paper or something with looks, whatever. And they, I hate to say, grew on me, but the chemistry developed not months later. I wouldn't wait that out. But not day one. And it just, I think all I knew with these past partners was I just want to see them again. Like, I just want to hang out with them. That's the only thing I don't feel obligated. I just feel excited to see them again. For whatever reason, they made me laugh. They felt comfortable with, with me. None of the people that I had had long term successful relationships with were tear your clothes off minute one. So that's been my track record. And now we try to, we, you know, if, you know, you know, if you're, if you're like, absolutely not, I do not want to see that person again, then don't see them again. But I think that the litmus test for me is like, do I am excited to hang out again? Am I excited to go get that slice of pizza at midnight after? You know, I just think That's. It's just as simple as that.

[C]

I also think there's nothing wrong with saying, like, there's two things in the world. I want a partner, and they're not going to do one of those things, then I'm going to walk away from this. I don't think it's. There's nothing wrong with being at a certain age and being like, you know what? I've been through enough relationships. I understand what is a serious deal breaker for me and also walking away. But, like, I love your limits. Test of. Just like, I'm excited to show back up again.

[B]

So I want to get into a little bit more of what you guys do at breakup boot camp. And it sounds to me, and tell me if I'm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that. But after the initial pain and kind of reframing the relationship and what was facts and what was feelings for you and for us, it is like, build this life that. Build your foundation and your career and whatever it is outside of a partner so you're whole, for lack of a better word. When the person comes along again, for lack of a better word. But that's what. What I think you get over the heartbreak, you reframe the relationship, and then it is like, let me make my life great for me. And outside of a partner.

[A]

Yeah. So a lot of the people who come to Renew Breakup Boot Camp, they have an anxious attachment style. So they have put a lot of their identity into the validation from their partner.

[B]

Find my identity. That's. You nailed it. That's what I was trying to get to with all those bumble. I'm like, I'm bumbling in it. Like, find your identity, whatever it may be. Yeah.

[C]

Can you talk about what breakup. I feel like we've been talking, like, what is breakup? So.

[A]

So Renew Breakup Bootcamp. We take a scientific and spiritual approach to healing and rewiring the heart. I bring in a team of 14 experts ranging from psychologists, hypnotists, energy healers. I even bring in a dominatrix with a PhD from Berkeley who specializes in the psychology of power dynamics.

[B]

We want to get.

[C]

We're going to have them on the podcast.

[B]

And a kid. Can I just say. Can I just say what I'm picturing?

[A]

Where?

[B]

And you tell me if I'm wrong. What is the couple's retreat? Have you seen that movie? Like, why am I picturing you guys all like, I'm.

[C]

I'm picturing, like that episode of Girls. She goes into the woods with her mom.

[B]

Okay. We're picturing two different things. I'm picturing couples retreat and everybody's at this island and like Paul Rudd is teaching you how to surf. Like, I just.

[A]

It's fun, but it's definitely more scientific and. And it's only women, so.

[B]

As it should be. Yeah.

[C]

And do you do them at different locations or is it the same location all the time? It's like a spa retreat, right?

[A]

Yeah. So it's a private estate in upstate New York and Hudson and I'm going to be expanding into California.

[C]

Yay. Congrats.

[B]

Oh yeah, that's a totally west coast thing. They'll eat it up.

[C]

And how many, how many have you done at this?

[A]

So I have done 11 retreats now and it's pretty intense. It's four days, 8:30 to 12:00', clock, midnight. You're in programming hour after hour.

[C]

And.

[A]

And we design it this way to really overstimulate you because we're trying to really create a shakeup of the decades of patterns that people have so that we can actually create an opening for new seeds to implant in.

[B]

I mean, I don't even want to ask when's your next one? All these girls are going to sign up, like right immediately.

[C]

You should do a couple more. Just add, how did you find this? So you're like, okay, I'm going to do this retreat. Like, how do I find 14 people to speak? Like, how did you do that? I'm so curious.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I mean, it started off with me just realizing there's a need because when I went through my breakup, I went to yoga retreats, which were great. But by the second I got back into my apartment, I was still dealing with the same thing.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

And there was nothing that was targeted to the type of pain that I was going through and the type of healing that I needed. And so I decided that I wanted to create a safe space in nature where everyone's sleeping under one roof, where there's a nostalgia of being at home. Home when you were young. And you have the best of the best experts teaching you about what's going on in the mind, the body, the soul. So we even have on site chef and nutritionist who cooks all of our meals because everything is interconnected.

[B]

Stay hydrated, ladies. Stay hydrated through those breakups. Don't get dehydrated. Yeah.

[A]

And like the way drinking, there's no drinking. There's. It's completely alcohol and drug free and digital free, actually.

[C]

Okay, so no phones, no alcohol.

[B]

No.

[A]

We actually even have A bucket for people to put their phones in, and they get rewarded with extra cake if they do.

[C]

Cake.

[A]

Okay, well, there's gluten free cake, of course.

[B]

And how many people will be in one retreat?

[A]

20 participants, 14 facilitators.

[C]

Is it all women?

[A]

All women.

[B]

All women. I love that you said that because I. Nothing against yoga retreats. That's. That's incredible. But, yeah, you come back and you're like, well, all I know how to do is yoga, so I'm just gonna do yoga. Like, I love that, like, someone would come back from this retreat and they know how to think differently.

[C]

I know that feeling when you walk in the door and you hear that door click and you are alone. It is the worst feeling because you're like, I did this thing and I should feel great, but the door just shut and I'm alone and I have no new tools to do this at all.

[A]

Yeah. And then there's a community that forms because the women get really, really close and they end up going on vacations together. I had one retreat where they, like, left and they got Ted tattoos together. It's. And there's a WhatsApp group where they're constantly on it. Like someone's going on a new date. They're like, okay, I'm trying a date with this really nice guy. And like, she's on date three, and it's going really well. We're so happy for her to, like, today. Like, someone's going through anxiety because her ex is, you know, dating someone else, and everyone kind of jumps in and helps. And then we have monthly meetups where we have an ongoing conversation about healthy relationships.

[B]

Can we come talk?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Can we come there?

[B]

I don't know if you have speakers, but I'm just gonna bite myself, I think. Okay, we just. Actually, I just want to hang out with you. That's what I'm trying to get at. I want to go back to finding your identity. And I. I think for some people, it can be starting to break up boot camp or starting a podcast. Like, you know, that's our story.

[A]

But yeah, and I say it all the time.

[C]

Like, when my ex left me, when my fiance left me, all I ever is. My job was fine, my life was fine. I never tr. And I had no hobbies, but my life was fine. He left me. And before that, all I. My identity was to be a wife and a mother. Like, we were going to get married. I was going to have children. That was my life. I was going to have, like, a normal 9 to 5. And he took that away from me. And all of a sudden, I was like, what do I. I have nothing left. Like, who am I? What am I? What have I done? And so, yeah, like, how do you redefine that identity?

[A]

Yeah, great question. I think we kind of all have a very similar story where this plan that we thought we were going to have suddenly is, like, ripped out from underneath us. And in the beginning, it's super scary because you're like, well, that's the only plan I knew. But I think if you look back at other times when a plan didn't work out, whether you got laid off from a job and you got a better job or a breakup led you to a better relationships, we have a history of things not working out for something better, a better fit to come along. And so there's a little bit of trust in the process. I've now had so many times where something didn't go right because something better came along that I just now know, like, oh, this didn't work out. I know something better is coming. I've just reframed my relationship with perceived disappointment. And second, I think just what lesson were you supposed to learn? Most of the women who come to renew, they say something very similar, and they say, I feel like the rug has been ripped out from underneath me. The question is, why was this person the foundation and the floor that you.

[C]

Were standing on, why that rug?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And so the bootcamp is really about getting to the bottom of that and those belief systems that is causing your foundation to be so shaky. And the goal is that we give them enough tools and start helping them reframe their subconscious beliefs so that when they leave, they actually can start practicing another way of being so that they can build a health. Healthier relationship with themselves. And then as a bonus, then they can have healthier relationships with other people. But it's about building your own foundation so it's not going to be ripped out from underneath you because you got laid off or because this guy dumped you.

[B]

Right. And is Renew Breakup boot camp. Is that just the official name?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Because we've said both things. Okay. Just making sure. Do you help people try to figure that out, or is that just. Is it just you kind of get them started on that? Yeah. Are you, like, what do you want to do with your life?

[A]

We also have life coaches there.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Um, so there's a bunch of different private sessions that people can sign up for, depending on what area they want to work on. So whether it's Life coach, whether it's sexual education with a tantra coach, whether it's learning about power with the dominatrix, whether it's a psychic medium, we have different private sessions for them.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Wow. People sign up for different things. Yeah, Sorry.

[B]

And everybody's different. I mean, we've. We've beat this to death on all of our other episodes. For me, it was like, I. I moved to New York City, and I knew. I knew I wanted to do more comedy and eventually start this podcast. Raina went to culinary school, and she took up photography, and she just started pursuing these things that you traveled a lot. You know, I think it's. I think it's different.

[C]

All the things that I just, like, wasn't doing, I was like, what do I have left? Absolutely. Like, Ashley changed her whole life. She moved to a new city and. Yeah, I don't need to repeat.

[B]

And solidifying, I guess, relationships, too. And I moved closer to my family, but I've never been close to. With my family. Like, they are just the most important thing in my life. And you've said, you know, when you were with your ex fiance, you lost touch with a lot of friends, and now, I mean, you have more girlfriends than anybody I know aside from me, and I just think it's a part of. It's that too. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I let the relationship just be my whole life, and there's nothing. Fine, do that if you want to do that. But, like, I didn't foster friendships. I didn't make an effort to go out to dinner with other girls. Girlfriends when he was be. When he would be late at work or something. I just stayed at home. I. He didn't really have the money to travel. I didn't travel. He didn't have the money to, like, take hobbies up and take classes. I just didn't take classes. And I just let that be okay. And like, I. That's fine. I was young, and nobody told me to build a life I was proud of, you know?

[A]

Right.

[C]

I was.

[B]

Nobody told me, like, society just tells you to be a wife and a mother.

[C]

Right. I mean, my mother never told me to be my mother. My parents divorced when I was four years old, and I had very loving, supportive parents like Ashley, but they were not together in my home. So my mom said, like, God forbid a man leaves, you have a job you can fall back on. But that's all. That's what I grew up on. Have money. But not like, my mom wasn't, like, make sure you go to Colombia and Peru. You Know, nobody told me that. Yeah, not college. Columbia.

[B]

Columbia. I know. I was like, what, now you're not getting an Ivy League? No offense. Neither am I.

[C]

No, I barely got in Indiana.

[A]

I think you raised a great point, is we, like. So one of the exercises we do is looking at your pie. And it sounds like your pie was filled with relationship, relationship, relationship. So if you look at a pie and you divide that up into different slices of how much energy and time you're spending on relationship, on self care, on play, on education, on work, often, I know with the women at Renew, that pie is very skewed. The slice of the pie reserved for a relationship is usually 60%, maybe even 70%. And that happens often. Slowly. You can start off with, I'm an independent, empowered woman. And then you're like, well, he travels a lot for work, so I just have to leave my weekends open in case he's free. Decision after decision, limit after limit that you breach. Like, I just won't see my friends this weekend because. And then you get to a point where suddenly it's just all relationship. And that pie went like. Went from you being independent woman who's doing soul cycle and like doing, like, women's brunches to like 70% me and him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're like, how the fuck did I get here? Why do I feel so disempowered? And so I think a great exercise for anyone listening is write down your pie. How does that look like right now? Is it balanced? Is it, you know, 70% relationship? Is it no relationship at all? And then write another pie, draw another pie. And what is a more balanced, healthy pie that you can strive for? And if you're in a relationship now, just making sure you look at it to, like, remind yourself, like, oh, you know what? I gotta add more self care. I have to add more community. Or if you have a tendency to be codependent and wanting to merge with your partner, creating a pie and reminding yourself to not do that because you want to keep a balance.

[B]

Well, and nobody wants a partner that they're the whole pie. I mean, maybe some controlling men, but I think for the most part, healthy partners don't want to be your whole pie. And I think that's. We think that people can pick up on that. And that's not just specific to women. I don't want someone that's super needy, and I don't want to feel like I'm someone's whole world. And if. And if we break up there, life's going to be Over. So I think it's for that too. It's just to attract the right type of partner.

[C]

I think if you back yourself into that corner, you're suddenly in a situation where, like, you have to accept everything that person's doing, because what do you have left?

[B]

What would you do without it? Yeah. We had another guest on Lindsay, Lindsay Metzler from a podcast called we met at a. Oh, you are. And she just said, when you think about if you broke up with this person, what would you have? If it's nothing that ain't good. Yeah.

[A]

Mic drop.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Anything else that you feel like, we don't want you to give away your whole breakup boot camp. We want people to go. But any other just unique tools about getting through breakups that you want to share, whether they're related to Renew or not?

[A]

Yeah. So I think one thing that could be very helpful for anyone who's trying to let something go is actually creating a ritual and a rite of passage around it. When you're going through a breakup, there's a part that's dying.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's this old relationship that's dying, and you're making space for the new. And so honor that, have respect in the ritual of that. And what we do at Renew is on one of the nights, we have them write a letter. And it's that same letter that I wrote to my ex many, many years ago. And in that letter, write down what happened, the facts of what happened, not your interpretation. Then write down your own accountability in what happened. Because it takes two people to be in a relationship, and it's not all, he's an asshole, she's a bitch. It's not all that. And then take a look and see. What is it that you learned? What did you learn about yourself? There's such great lessons that our relationships teach us that pain teaches us. Find those lessons and then write down what you're letting go. Write down what you are forgiving, and then write down what you're grateful for. Maybe that was the push you needed to leave your hometown, to start investing into your friendships again, to realize that too much of your identity was wrapped up in one other person and feel the gratitude of that and thank that person for helping you learn all of that. And after that, take that letter and burn it. And if you need to repeat this process multiple times. I've had women at Renew who, after the bootcamp have done it multiple times go and do that. But it's very cathartic.

[B]

Absolutely. Or do stand up comedy. I can't recommend it at all. Absolutely.

[C]

Every fucked up. Just get on. Get on stage. Ashley said this thing we have, another one of our best episodes was about how to get over a breakup, like, right now. And Ashley said, like, just make the pros and cons list, like, physically sit down and, like, if the only thing in the cons column is he didn't love me the way that I deserve to be loved, and I just, like, love that you said that. It still, like, resonates with me, like, 50 episodes ago. If that's the only thing in the cons column, like, do that, write that list, and, like, look at that all the time. And so, I mean, you say light it on fire. You don't have to light it on fire.

[B]

Yes. And I think the pros and the cons. Cons list is a little different. Yours is more like, reflecting the relationship and the good that came out of it. But I think the pros and the cons list is before that. It's just, like, in the moment. Get this on writing. This was not the person for me, and this is how they made me feel, and this is why they weren't the person for me. And I just have to say, I don't know a woman out here. I mean, most of my friends are really love their lives, and they're successful and they're where they want to be. No one has ever liked. I still wish I was with my ex or the breakup was still the worst thing that ever happened to me. Like, I. We have all been through terrible breakups, all me and all of my girlfriends. And I think everybody reflects on it as, like, yeah, that was supposed to happen, and I'm so glad it did. And I can imagine being with that person, and here's what it taught me, and here's what it did for my life overall.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, you only don't get to that realization when you just keep trying to hang on to the relationship by hanging onto the pain and not accepting reality.

[B]

Right. And it's. It's easier said than done. But if that person doesn't want to be with you, you shouldn't want to be with them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You deserve somebody that wants to be with you. That's what a relationship is.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Two people choosing to be in it.

[C]

Yeah. Well, this was amazing. Really. I'm thrilled with this episode. I know.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

We.

[C]

Any other closing remarks? I want her to, like, tell people where they can find her.

[A]

I do have one thing.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

All right.

[A]

So the last thing I want to leave you with is sometimes we create a relationship in our heads. And so what this means is you might go on a few dates with someone, and it starts off pretty level. They like you, I like them. And then. And then you start daydreaming about the person. And they said they wanted to retire in Bali one day, and you wanted to retire in Bali one day. And you're like your soulmate. Bell start ringing. And so in between, you're creating this fantasy. You're replaying the fantasy, and it feels so good. And your body actually can't tell the difference between what's happened in the past, the present, and the future. So that's why when you keep telling the same retraumatizing story of what happened with a past breakup and catching infidelity, you can be flooded with tears because your body's actually creating stress hormones. Well, the same thing's happening when you are creating a fantasy about someone. I coined this future trippin. And so it's creating all these feelings of the chemicals of dopamine and all these feel good chemicals. And suddenly what's happening is your feelings skyrocket for that person. And then you might go on a few more dates, and suddenly something feels off. The power dynamic is a bit off. And then you're clamoring for their attention. You want more. You might feel needy, and then it falls apart, and then you're like, completely heartbroken. This is a very common thing that happens at Renew with the women who tell their stories, where they were in these relationships. And in their head, they were married and had children and retired the in Bali like five times already. Whereas in the head of the person they were dating, they went on a few dates, had some good sex, and that was that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so if you have a tendency to do this, and if you have a tendency to meet someone, get really excited, and suddenly your feelings skyrocket. What I would suggest to you is to do what's called the stop sign exercise. And what this is is whether you're ruminating about the past and creating anxiety or you're future tripping about a future that hasn't happened. Imagine close your eyes. Imagine a big red stop sign. And then say the word stop. And then look around you and just start to look for everything you're grateful for and just be like, oh, I'm grateful for the beautiful sky right now. I'm beautiful for the rain. I'm beautiful.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

I'm grateful for this cute dog. And you just keep going because what that's going to do is it's going to distract your mind from the original thought. And eventually, if you keep practicing this the first few times, it might be hard, you'll be like, this doesn't work. But eventually what happens is you're able to train your mind to actually just go off into this whole gratitude thing, which makes you present, and then you forget the original thought, and it stops you from creating these fantasy relationships with people in your head.

[B]

I love that you said that. I also think sometimes it's. You need something else going on in your life. Like, I have found that when I wasn't as busy and I wasn't trying to run a business, I would have more time to fantasize and make up these scenarios in my head and imagine this life with this person. And when you are busy and fulfilled and killing it in life and doing other things and you have hobbies and workouts and you have a schedule, and you're really living life, you just don't have the time and energy to do that, I think. I love that you said visualization, for one. Like, people are like, why visualize a stop sign? I'm like, yeah, it's the thing. Like, you, like, visualize it and focus on, like, gratitude and something else. But even on a bigger schedule, like, do you have just a lot of time on your hands to sit around and fantasize? I mean, that's what they. That's what they do in the Bachelor. So they put all these girls in a house, and they take away all their phones and their magazines and the books, and there's no tv, and then they all are fantasizing about this one man, and these women go crazy. They put them in this bubble, basically, and it's designed to do that exact same thing. And that's why, you see, these women act absolutely batshit insane. Every single woman in that house, not, you know, exception with the few, think that's their soulmate, right?

[C]

And he's all that they have.

[B]

And then all they do is sit around all week with nothing but each other to talk about this man. And then he picks them for one date, and then they go on this fantasy date, and then they're like, like, of course that's my future husband, right? And so it's. It's. I. I almost tie back into that. Like, they just didn't have enough to do, right? Pick up a book. Like, seriously, if you're just. If you're picturing your life with this guy you went on three dates with.

[C]

Pick up a book, put on Lizzo.

[B]

Just do something else. I like your gratitude exercise. But. Or anything else. Yeah, you know, I just, I just know this because I used to do this. I talk about a guy that I dated when I was. Thought I was super in love with when I was 25 and I had this low paying job and PR. I was like, whatever. And I'll probably just like marry this guy. I love him and we're great and that's that. And it's just like, no, thank God we broke up. But I would sit around and do this thing of like, well, his job is perfect and then I'm just going to move to Charleston and we're going to do this thing. And it's like, this guy's not thinking about me like this.

[C]

That's so true though. Like, you don't realize that in your mind you've lived out the whole relationship and that person has literally just been on a couple dates with you.

[A]

They have no clue.

[C]

Like, you're like, we're dating. We dated. Like, they literally have no idea that you are in a marriage with them.

[B]

It's fun. It's fun sometimes to sit around and fantasize, but put the kibosh on it.

[C]

As I pick up a book. Ashley cannot stress this enough. Please pick up a book.

[B]

Guys, we have a friends. They have a great podcast called Bad on Paper. Lots of book recommendations. Grace Atwood and Becca Freeman, we want to shout them out, listen their podcast, get some book recommendations, do literally anything.

[C]

Else come to our shows.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Can't recommend going to comedy enough. Go out, see a comedy show, see Ashley do stand up.

[B]

Come see me, guys. Come see me. Tell jokes about all of my exes. It's cathartic. It's my therapy. Okay. Okay.

[C]

I don't want to leave.

[B]

We love you.

[C]

Yeah. Thank you for interjecting that. That's really beautiful. We want people to be able to find you and find Renew Breakup Boot camp. So where can they find your website, your Instagram send? You're going to get so many dms.

[B]

Stay as long as you want. Just keep talking.

[A]

Okay?

[C]

Do you want to live here with us?

[B]

You live here now. Do you like Dewey? Are you vibing with him because you're his new roommate?

[A]

So my website is renew breakup boot camp.com and my relationship blog is justmytype ca because I'm a Canadian and on Instagram you can find me Missamychan M I S S a M y C.

[B]

H A n. Okay, well, hope you guys liked this re released episode. You can find [e-mail] Girls Gotta Eat podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I am Ash Hess. Raina is Raina Greenberg and we will see you Thursday.

[C]

Have a great week, guys.