Girls Gotta Eat: “Cheating Isn't Black and White” feat. Esther Perel

Recorded 2021, Re-released Nov 3, 2025

Episode Overview

This re-released episode features world-renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel, whose nuanced approach to fidelity, infidelity, and the realities of modern relationships has made her a guiding voice in the topics of love, trust, and healing. Ashley Hesseltine and Raina Greenberg dive deep into why cheating happens, why it hurts, how couples can potentially move forward, and why our cultural conversations about infidelity are overdue for a more compassionate, complex perspective. Woven throughout is Girls Gotta Eat’s signature humor, candor, and relatability.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Myth of “Black and White” Cheating

• Cheating is not simply good vs. bad, perpetrator vs. victim.
  Esther Perel opens by reframing infidelity as a nuanced, multilayered issue rather than a moral binary.

“It is not black and white. It is not good and bad. It is not the perpetrator and the victim. If you want, it’s a little more complicated.”
— Esther Perel (00:00)

• Infidelity as a universal, not exceptional, experience.
  80% of any audience has been touched by infidelity—whether directly, through their parents, or as bystanders. It’s systemic, intergenerational, and has deep roots in both societal norms and individual psychology.

“It is not just a few bad apples. This experience is pervasive. It’s systemic, it’s intergenerational.”
— Esther Perel (13:36)

Why Does Cheating Hurt So Much?

• It attacks identity, trust, and self-worth.
  Being cheated on is felt as a profound violation—of trust, of your belief in your uniqueness to your partner, and sometimes of your own lovability.

“It’s experienced as the most painful violation of trust. I thought we were in this together... How could you be so selfish? Or it must be a confirmation that I’m not enough.”
— Esther Perel (13:36)

Cultural and Historical Context Matters

• Marriage was not always about love.
  Marriage's original roles—property, companionship, social status—meant that infidelity had different emotional consequences. Only recently has romantic love become the central expectation, making cheating feel like “the shattering of the grand ambition of love.”

“When the person cheats on you, it is the shattering of the grand ambition of love...you may be replaceable and it just pierces you.”
— Esther Perel (11:24)

• Women’s economic independence changed the stakes. In the past, women had less freedom to leave after cheating because it meant economic risk. Today, cultural shaming of women who “take back a cheater” reflects new, if problematic, forms of agency.

Cheating and Relationship Dynamics

• Reasons people cheat are often deeply personal and not always about the other partner.
  Cheating can result from loneliness, resentment, or a desire for lost parts of oneself.

“I didn't go outside because I wanted to find another person. I went outside because I wanted to find another self... I wanted to leave the person that I myself had become.”
— Esther Perel (26:15)

• Not all infidelity stems from “bad” relationships. Sometimes, affairs occur even in seemingly happy partnerships, often due to personal crises or unresolved internal needs.

The Fallout: Can Couples Heal After Cheating?

• There’s no single outcome.
  Perel identifies three main relationship trajectories post-affair:
  • The relationship ends.
  • Partners stay but remain stuck in resentment.
  • They use the crisis to reconnect and build something stronger.

“It’s the meaning of it that will tell you if the couple has a life afterward. And what kind of life? Not the data, the facts.”
— Esther Perel (30:59)

• The importance of accountability and rebuilding trust. A person who has cheated must fully own their actions and be an active agent in restoring trust—often for years.

“When somebody has hurt someone, it’s that someone acknowledges it, owns it, feels remorse for it... That’s the starting point.”
— Esther Perel (37:50)
“Trust is an active engagement with the unknown. If you need to know, you’re not trusting.”
— Esther Perel (44:28)

• Forgiveness is complex, and resentment can be a trap.
  Sometimes, despite the best efforts, the cheated-on partner can't let go—not always because of the partner, but due to a personal betrayal (of themselves for “choosing wrong”).

“Resentment sometimes is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die.”
— Esther Perel (54:16)

Redefining Cheating, Blame, and Judgment

• Cheater ≠ Monster
  Society demonizes cheaters and shames those who stay, but Perel argues that we must see “deeper stories,” including emotional deprivation, sexual disenchantment, and the stresses couples face.

“If instead of calling that person the cheater, you call that the person who finally said, ‘I can’t accept this anymore. I can’t be ignored, rejected, unseen days on end, years on end.’”
— Esther Perel (36:15)

• Everyone contributes to a relationship’s climate. The “betrayed” can reflect on their participation in the relationship’s breakdown without excusing betrayal itself.

The Pressure of “Having It All”

• Our expectations for relationships are sky-high and often unrealistic.
  Modern couples demand that a partner be a best friend, passionate lover, co-parent, and self-actualization coach.

“The expectations have never been higher. They’re unprecedented. What we would want from one person...is a really tall order for a party of two.”
— Esther Perel (25:43)

• You are not supposed to be everything for your partner.
  Having friends, separate interests, and an external life is essential.

“What sustains a couple is the people around it as much as what happens between them...don’t think that if your partner wants to go see somebody it means you’re not enough.”
— Esther Perel (60:33)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Cheating isn’t black and white...we have got to make room for these nuances and not just go quick for the judgment.”
  — Esther Perel (00:00, 34:14)

• “For most of history, marriage was not about love...people went outside of marriage to seek love.”
  — Esther Perel (17:56)

• “I didn’t go outside because I wanted to find another person…I wanted to find another self.”
  — Esther Perel (26:15)

• “Trust is an active engagement with the unknown.”
  — Esther Perel (44:28)

• “Resentment sometimes is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die.”
  — Esther Perel (54:16)

• “If you have those people...to amplify, to complete the relationship...it’s very, very important. That’s the beginning.”
  — Esther Perel (60:33)

Important Timestamps

• 00:00 – Esther Perel introduces the theme: cheating isn’t black-and-white.
• 11:24–13:36 – Discussion of infidelity’s pain, rooted in shifting meanings of love, marriage, and societal context.
• 16:16–17:42 – Cheating as systemic, not just a failing of individuals or relationships.
• 25:43–26:15 – Unrealistically high modern relationship expectations.
• 26:15–28:48 – Cheating for “another self,” not always for another person.
• 34:14 – Perel expands on why judgment is so pervasive and misplaced.
• 37:50–41:59 – How to heal, rebuild trust, and whether/how to forgive.
• 44:28–46:56 – Acknowledging hurt, rebuilding trust as a long, active process.
• 54:16 – The toxicity of never letting go of resentment.
• 60:33–62:37 – Why friendship, community, and individual pursuits outside the couple are essential.

Tone & Style

• The episode balances Esther Perel’s intellectual rigor and empathy with Girls Gotta Eat’s signature humor, relatability, and candid personal anecdotes.
• The hosts share their own stories of having been cheated on and reflections on trust, inviting deep moments as well as comic relief.
• The conversation is honest, supportive, and frank, with plenty of memorable quotables.

Actionable Takeaways

• Challenge the assumption that cheating is purely a moral failing; seek to understand root causes and system dynamics.
• If healing after infidelity, full accountability and ongoing repair efforts matter as much as immediate apologies.
• Cultivate a rich life outside your relationship—your partner should not and cannot be your “everything.”
• Examine your own roles and assumptions in relationship dynamics without self-blame or shame.
• Forgiveness and moving forward are deeply individual journeys, not one-size-fits-all solutions.

For further exploration:

• Esther Perel’s books: The State of Affairs, Mating in Captivity
• Her podcast: Where Should We Begin?