Cheating Isn't Black and White feat. Esther Perel

Summary

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Girls Gotta Eat: “Cheating Isn't Black and White” feat. Esther Perel

Recorded 2021, Re-released Nov 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

This re-released episode features world-renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel, whose nuanced approach to fidelity, infidelity, and the realities of modern relationships has made her a guiding voice in the topics of love, trust, and healing. Ashley Hesseltine and Raina Greenberg dive deep into why cheating happens, why it hurts, how couples can potentially move forward, and why our cultural conversations about infidelity are overdue for a more compassionate, complex perspective. Woven throughout is Girls Gotta Eat’s signature humor, candor, and relatability.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Myth of “Black and White” Cheating

• Cheating is not simply good vs. bad, perpetrator vs. victim.
  Esther Perel opens by reframing infidelity as a nuanced, multilayered issue rather than a moral binary.

“It is not black and white. It is not good and bad. It is not the perpetrator and the victim. If you want, it’s a little more complicated.”
— Esther Perel (00:00)

• Infidelity as a universal, not exceptional, experience.
  80% of any audience has been touched by infidelity—whether directly, through their parents, or as bystanders. It’s systemic, intergenerational, and has deep roots in both societal norms and individual psychology.

“It is not just a few bad apples. This experience is pervasive. It’s systemic, it’s intergenerational.”
— Esther Perel (13:36)

Why Does Cheating Hurt So Much?

• It attacks identity, trust, and self-worth.
  Being cheated on is felt as a profound violation—of trust, of your belief in your uniqueness to your partner, and sometimes of your own lovability.

“It’s experienced as the most painful violation of trust. I thought we were in this together... How could you be so selfish? Or it must be a confirmation that I’m not enough.”
— Esther Perel (13:36)

Cultural and Historical Context Matters

• Marriage was not always about love.
  Marriage's original roles—property, companionship, social status—meant that infidelity had different emotional consequences. Only recently has romantic love become the central expectation, making cheating feel like “the shattering of the grand ambition of love.”

“When the person cheats on you, it is the shattering of the grand ambition of love...you may be replaceable and it just pierces you.”
— Esther Perel (11:24)

• Women’s economic independence changed the stakes. In the past, women had less freedom to leave after cheating because it meant economic risk. Today, cultural shaming of women who “take back a cheater” reflects new, if problematic, forms of agency.

Cheating and Relationship Dynamics

• Reasons people cheat are often deeply personal and not always about the other partner.
  Cheating can result from loneliness, resentment, or a desire for lost parts of oneself.

“I didn't go outside because I wanted to find another person. I went outside because I wanted to find another self... I wanted to leave the person that I myself had become.”
— Esther Perel (26:15)

• Not all infidelity stems from “bad” relationships. Sometimes, affairs occur even in seemingly happy partnerships, often due to personal crises or unresolved internal needs.

The Fallout: Can Couples Heal After Cheating?

• There’s no single outcome.
  Perel identifies three main relationship trajectories post-affair:
  • The relationship ends.
  • Partners stay but remain stuck in resentment.
  • They use the crisis to reconnect and build something stronger.

“It’s the meaning of it that will tell you if the couple has a life afterward. And what kind of life? Not the data, the facts.”
— Esther Perel (30:59)

• The importance of accountability and rebuilding trust. A person who has cheated must fully own their actions and be an active agent in restoring trust—often for years.

“When somebody has hurt someone, it’s that someone acknowledges it, owns it, feels remorse for it... That’s the starting point.”
— Esther Perel (37:50)
“Trust is an active engagement with the unknown. If you need to know, you’re not trusting.”
— Esther Perel (44:28)

• Forgiveness is complex, and resentment can be a trap.
  Sometimes, despite the best efforts, the cheated-on partner can't let go—not always because of the partner, but due to a personal betrayal (of themselves for “choosing wrong”).

“Resentment sometimes is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die.”
— Esther Perel (54:16)

Redefining Cheating, Blame, and Judgment

• Cheater ≠ Monster
  Society demonizes cheaters and shames those who stay, but Perel argues that we must see “deeper stories,” including emotional deprivation, sexual disenchantment, and the stresses couples face.

“If instead of calling that person the cheater, you call that the person who finally said, ‘I can’t accept this anymore. I can’t be ignored, rejected, unseen days on end, years on end.’”
— Esther Perel (36:15)

• Everyone contributes to a relationship’s climate. The “betrayed” can reflect on their participation in the relationship’s breakdown without excusing betrayal itself.

The Pressure of “Having It All”

• Our expectations for relationships are sky-high and often unrealistic.
  Modern couples demand that a partner be a best friend, passionate lover, co-parent, and self-actualization coach.

“The expectations have never been higher. They’re unprecedented. What we would want from one person...is a really tall order for a party of two.”
— Esther Perel (25:43)

• You are not supposed to be everything for your partner.
  Having friends, separate interests, and an external life is essential.

“What sustains a couple is the people around it as much as what happens between them...don’t think that if your partner wants to go see somebody it means you’re not enough.”
— Esther Perel (60:33)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Cheating isn’t black and white...we have got to make room for these nuances and not just go quick for the judgment.”
  — Esther Perel (00:00, 34:14)

• “For most of history, marriage was not about love...people went outside of marriage to seek love.”
  — Esther Perel (17:56)

• “I didn’t go outside because I wanted to find another person…I wanted to find another self.”
  — Esther Perel (26:15)

• “Trust is an active engagement with the unknown.”
  — Esther Perel (44:28)

• “Resentment sometimes is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die.”
  — Esther Perel (54:16)

• “If you have those people...to amplify, to complete the relationship...it’s very, very important. That’s the beginning.”
  — Esther Perel (60:33)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00 – Esther Perel introduces the theme: cheating isn’t black-and-white.
• 11:24–13:36 – Discussion of infidelity’s pain, rooted in shifting meanings of love, marriage, and societal context.
• 16:16–17:42 – Cheating as systemic, not just a failing of individuals or relationships.
• 25:43–26:15 – Unrealistically high modern relationship expectations.
• 26:15–28:48 – Cheating for “another self,” not always for another person.
• 34:14 – Perel expands on why judgment is so pervasive and misplaced.
• 37:50–41:59 – How to heal, rebuild trust, and whether/how to forgive.
• 44:28–46:56 – Acknowledging hurt, rebuilding trust as a long, active process.
• 54:16 – The toxicity of never letting go of resentment.
• 60:33–62:37 – Why friendship, community, and individual pursuits outside the couple are essential.

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Tone & Style

• The episode balances Esther Perel’s intellectual rigor and empathy with Girls Gotta Eat’s signature humor, relatability, and candid personal anecdotes.
• The hosts share their own stories of having been cheated on and reflections on trust, inviting deep moments as well as comic relief.
• The conversation is honest, supportive, and frank, with plenty of memorable quotables.

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Actionable Takeaways

• Challenge the assumption that cheating is purely a moral failing; seek to understand root causes and system dynamics.
• If healing after infidelity, full accountability and ongoing repair efforts matter as much as immediate apologies.
• Cultivate a rich life outside your relationship—your partner should not and cannot be your “everything.”
• Examine your own roles and assumptions in relationship dynamics without self-blame or shame.
• Forgiveness and moving forward are deeply individual journeys, not one-size-fits-all solutions.

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For further exploration:

• Esther Perel’s books: The State of Affairs, Mating in Captivity
• Her podcast: Where Should We Begin?

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Transcript

[Esther Perel]

And that's when you say it is not black and white. It is not good and bad. It is not the perpetrator and the victim. If you want it's a little more complicated. And since it happens in so many of our families, we have got to make room for these nuances and not just go quick for the judgment.

[Ashley Hess]

This podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Raina Greenberg]

Hi guys.

[Ashley Hess]

Hi guys.

[Raina Greenberg]

Welcome back to sort of another episode of Girls Gotta eat.

[Ashley Hess]

A very important re released episode become because I'm married, you guys. Apparently. Well, you know, you never know. Who's to say?

[Raina Greenberg]

We still have 10 days, almost two weeks.

[Ashley Hess]

We're recording this before obviously we were not gonna drop a new episode the Monday after my wedding.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think you'll get married. So Sparkle eyes is in the room with us. Do you think you're gonna go through with it?

[Ashley Hess]

Do you want to pop in?

[Raina Greenberg]

No, no. On both men can only answer one question at a time.

[Ashley Hess]

So we are going to have him on and recap the wedding on November 17th. We just want to be real with you guys and be upfront about the scheduling and the way we were able to do this so I could enjoy myself and you know, back to work. Yeah. So November 17th we'll recap it all. He will come on spoiler alert. But yeah, so as it stands now, hopefully it happened, you know.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, so you're on your honeymoon and mini, mini moon.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, so like a quick three day trip.

[Raina Greenberg]

I like what you've gamed this to have multiple honeymoons.

[Ashley Hess]

I think everyone, I think this is kind of what people do. They take a few days right after and then plan something big for later.

[Raina Greenberg]

I always find we've talked about in the past. I find it crazy that people spend months planning a wedding and they leave the next step. Listen, if you have the capacity that plan for the whole vacation but like packing by itself. Packing for a week wipes me out.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, this is what I said to you. I can't wrap my head around. I need to be packed for a minimum 10 day vacation, two weeks. Whatever you're going to take on the.

[Raina Greenberg]

Tuesday before my wedding, I can't wrap my head around it.

[Ashley Hess]

But yeah, there was no way to plan it. You know, we're going to take some time off and then next year we'll do a big trip. We don't even really quite know where it's going to be. The world in the world.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like where the world's going to be or where you're. Oh, where we're going, we're going To Italy.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, he said we're going to Japan. We're going to Italy. We're going to a group trip to Italy.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's what I meant. Well, also, we are going to go to Japan before we move out of L. A.

[Ashley Hess]

He and I are going to go to Japan at some point. My dream honeymoon is an African safari. It's not his. I wish you guys could see his face right now.

[Raina Greenberg]

He's not even paying attention to us.

[Ashley Hess]

He's scrolling. It's his birthday.

[Raina Greenberg]

We made him come over here and do manual labor in the studio.

[Ashley Hess]

He brought beers in a little lunchbox.

[Raina Greenberg]

But it's so cute. Little six pack and his lunchbox. Like Anton carrying around his little six pack.

[Ashley Hess]

Babe, where did the tequila bottle go? Let me check.

[Esther Perel]

Let's see if I can find it.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm proud of you that you understood that reference.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, so anyway, today. Esther Perel.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes. So, I mean, people always say, who's your number one dream guest? She was always one of our top dream guests. And my number one top dream guest. She is a psychotherapist who's world renowned. Absolutely changed my life with her work. She really focuses on fidelity, monogamy. And that is what we recorded with her a couple years back. One of our top episodes. And we're gonna re release that today. It's one of my favorite episodes that we've done.

[Ashley Hess]

So we've had her on twice. This was the very first time she came on. This was in 2021. It was such a dream. Like they say, never meet your heroes. And we had met my hero a few weeks prior, and that really did not go well. And so then we got to meet your hero. Totally different experience. She couldn't have been more wonderful.

[Raina Greenberg]

She hung out.

[Ashley Hess]

She had a game that we playing afterwards. So this episode, we did not do full video episodes back then. We started that, I think the following year in 2022. But we would record full video for to cut a few reels. What were we doing?

[Raina Greenberg]

That is so much fun.

[Ashley Hess]

But I was still editing the podcast, so we didn't have Anna.

[Raina Greenberg]

Was it one video angle? No, we did multi angle for.

[Ashley Hess]

Do you not know what's about to happen?

[Esther Perel]

I don't remember.

[Ashley Hess]

Anyway, so you guys are watching.

[Raina Greenberg]

She asked me what happened last month. I don't remember.

[Ashley Hess]

If you guys are watching, you already know more than Raina. So this is a full. Yeah, it's us on the couch in the New York old studio and Esther and it's incredible. So we have our old faces. Well, maybe like version 2 faces.

[Raina Greenberg]

I had my old face.

[Ashley Hess]

I am post rhinoplasty.

[Raina Greenberg]

I am preaching implant.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, so this is how we used to look in 2021 and this is never before seen video. So if you guys listen to the episode, I highly recommend you revisit it. I re listened as we decided to re release this and I hadn't remembered it word for word, of course. Just so incredible information. I love that we're releasing an episode about cheating the day after my wedding.

[Raina Greenberg]

But here we are, not really on.

[Ashley Hess]

Brand, but she is just the, I mean, premier voice in this space and she really takes such a unique, realistic, nuanced perspective on everything, especially monogamy.

[Raina Greenberg]

So I read her book State of Affairs. Mating in Captivity is her other really famous book. And State of Affairs was really the first time I ever read a person write about cheating as not a black and white thing, as being very gray, as something that is really heavily practiced throughout the world, highly misunderstood, really vilified, but something that so many people do and will experience either themselves being the cheater or being cheated on. And it's so nuanced and the way.

[Ashley's Partner]

She speaks about it is just incredible.

[Raina Greenberg]

So we had a profound discussion with her.

[Ashley Hess]

So enjoy this deep cut. We are just gonna talk about our partners and we will get into it.

[Raina Greenberg]

All right, thank you to Built. Get points by paying rent@join built.com GGE and BetterHelp get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com GGE and thank you to Helix. Get 20% off at helix sleep.com/GGE and.

[Ashley Hess]

Thank you to Smart Mouth. Get a special discount on your next Smart mouth [e-mail] GGE and Columbia Sportswear. Head to columbia.com to get your hands on an Amaze puff jacket. And thank you to Saks Fifth Avenue. Head to Saks Fifth Avenue or Saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate, elevate your personal style. And without further ado, here is the interview.

[Ashley's Partner]

Okay, guys, we are really excited to welcome our guest for today. She is a world renowned psychotherapist who is iconic in the couples therapy space. She is a New York Times bestselling author of two of my favorite books on how we love Mating in Captivity and State of Affairs. Her collection of TED talks have amassed over 30 million views and they include the Secret to Desire and Long Term Relationships and Rethinking Infidelity. A talk for anyone who has everloved. Please welcome to the show, one of my personal favorites, Esther Perel.

[Esther Perel]

Hello, hello, hello.

[Ashley Hess]

Hi.

[Raina Greenberg]

Thank you for being here.

[Ashley Hess]

This is a huge day for us.

[Ashley's Partner]

And we had such a nice time chatting with you and talking to you, catching up on. You just told us your TED talks have amassed 30 million views. I was in Miami with my boyfriend, and we were watching one of your TED Talks in the hotel room instead of going down to the beach.

[Esther Perel]

Oh. Oh, it was good. Somebody I met this weekend was saying, I'm driving. No. We were literally talking, and like, five minutes into it, she says, I know this voice. I know this voice. I drive with you to Boston. I listen to the episodes of the podcast. Where should we begin? Are you that person?

[Ashley Hess]

Well, I was telling you that I listened to an episode of your podcast, and I got lost, and I ended up in New Jersey because I was so invested.

[Esther Perel]

That's a terrible place to get lost.

[Ashley Hess]

Luckily, I was coming back to New York, but I. I just got so invested in this couple, and so I eventually just was like, I need to turn this off and wait till I get home and finish and wrap it up. But it's heavy and it's raw, and it's incredible.

[Esther Perel]

Should we say what it is?

[Ashley Hess]

The podcast?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. It is Couples therapy live.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

It is. You a fly on the wall listening in.

[Ashley Hess]

Exactly.

[Esther Perel]

And why? Because too many couples spend their time posturing and curating their lives, and they don't tell the truth. And so then you say it's heavy because it's actually real. It's not always heavy, but it's the truth. And most of us don't know what really happens in the love lives of our closest friends. I mean, the two of you may know.

[Ashley Hess]

We know a lot, and it makes us almost. We ask each other sometimes, like, whose relationship do you really want? You know, like, so many people want to be in a relationship so badly, and we're like. But we know.

[Esther Perel]

We almost know too much, you know? Yes, yes, yes.

[Ashley's Partner]

It's the first thing people share with us. And usually I shared some with you, which we're not going to share on the podcast today, but within two minutes of meeting you, I shared something very personal with you. And that's our experience as well, and.

[Ashley Hess]

We talk about that, too.

[Ashley's Partner]

You know, you have this whole list of what you want from somebody in a relationship and this idea of this perfection. And, like, I don't know anybody that gets to have that. You know, I think the goal is just to have most of the things you want with a person that you trust and that you love spending time.

[Esther Perel]

With, or you switch the focus from everything that you want in the other person to asking yourself at least sometimes, who do you want to be? Not just, who do you want to meet? What should they bring to the table? What do you want to bring to the table? I think that that would balance the thing as well.

[Ashley Hess]

Effy, we love. Sometimes we think of someone that has this big list of what they want in a partner. But what are you. What. What's your list look like?

[Esther Perel]

That's right. Who. Who are you being in a relationship.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. I'm going to let Raina kind of take it away on this. You're, you know, her. Her dream guest. I'm so glad to have you here, too, but you can kind of lead the combo. We don't have you on the show.

[Esther Perel]

No, it's a real treat that I'm here. And honestly, I had no idea I was rejecting you.

[Ashley's Partner]

Well, your publicist did.

[Raina Greenberg]

She's here, too.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, no, no. This is perfect. We're so glad.

[Ashley's Partner]

And we're ready for the interview, too. Honestly. I would say, like, day one. I wouldn't have been ready to have these type of conversations. But I found your work about four years ago. I read the book State of Affairs, and it really focuses on fidelity and infidelity from a lot of different lenses. So why do people cheat? Why would somebody take back a cheater? What does that do to a marriage or a relationship? And then you end the book actually with, why would somebody be a mistress? And why would somebody accept that? And I like the whole 360 view of all this. And so we'll talk about those things today and talk about fidelity and reef framing, how you think about it. But you wrote a couple things in the book that I wrote down that I thought were really profound. And it's a couple sentences, so I'll read you back to you. But you wrote this extremely common human experience is so poorly understood. Adultery has existed since marriage was invented, and so, too, the prohibition against it. What are we to make of this time honored taboo, universally forbidden and yet universally practiced? And I find that very moving because, yes, we think of this as the cardinal sin. Cheating on someone or wanting to cheat on someone or saying, I want to be in an open relationship, but so many of us do these things or want to do these things or have the inclination towards it. So you sort of floated this idea of, like, are our ideas of marriage wrong and what we should have in a relationship wrong? So I would love to talk about that stuff today.

[Esther Perel]

You know, if you add a tiny bit of history and also a Broader cultural perspective, let's also say that for most of history, men have had the opportunity to cheat with impunity. And it often was also even justified in all kinds of evolutionary and biological terms. It's the women who were not allowed. There's always been a double standard. What has really changed is the meaning of infidelity, what it means in the context of romantic love. If romantic love is not that your father picks for you, because that's how it is, it's the father that picks for you in many places. And you get to choose, and you get to choose freely as you get a little older and somebody chooses you, and not only do they choose you, but we have this idea of the one and only, and you find your soulmate, supposedly. We can discuss that in a minute. Then, when the person cheats on you, it is the shattering of the grand ambition of love. It is the fact that you are not the one and only. It is the fact that you may be replaceable and it just pierces you. So infidelity has always existed, but what it means has deeply changed. And when you had women who were economically dependent on men, then the cheating also meant an economic destitution, so you had to stay. Once women became economically independent and they can live and they can sustain themselves, then it becomes the cardinal sin from which I'm not supposed to take you back. That question about taking back is a question that my grandmother never had the privilege of asking. She had no choice.

[Ashley Hess]

Wow. We wanted to talk about while we're here, like, why it hurts so bad. And there's something about, even if there's a cheating situation, or even if someone just moves on after you have broken up, it, like, is the worst pain in the world. And I dealt with that. I think we've all dealt with that. And trying to figure out why, you know, like. And it's. I think, obviously that feeling of feeling replaceable, like, you're not the only one wondering, was this ever real? You know, am I lovable? Am I unlovable?

[Esther Perel]

So, you know, you say, Reina, that I write this sentence historically practiced, historically forbidden. I ask audiences, and this goes a moment before the why it hurts. You ask an audience, have you been affected by the experience of infidelity in your life? Either because your parent, one of your parents, was unfaithful, or fell in love with another person and went to live and make a new life with another person, either because you yourself are the child of an illicit, either because you were the third person that completed the triangle, either because you're the friend on whose shoulder somebody's been weeping for weeks? Or because you are the friend that somebody has been confiding with in utter titillation and excitement and revelation. And 80% of every audience I'm standing with raises their hand. So it is not just a few bad apples. This experience is pervasive. It's systemic, it's intergenerational. It's secrets in the family, et cetera, et cetera. On the one on one question that you ask, why does it hurt when this is done? To me, it's experienced as the most painful violation of trust. I thought we were in this together and you had my back and you would not put your interests ahead of mine. How could you be so selfish? Or it must be a confirmation that I'm not enough. I'm not good enough. Other people. This is what I've always thought. I'm unlovable. Nobody will stay with me. I'm destined to be abandoned, and here it is. Or, I mean, these are all soliloquies in our heads about why this is so painful. You fell in love with someone else, and I love you, and I miss you and I ache for you. And, you know, how do I get you to come back? And you cannot force someone to love or. I love you very much. I want you to have those experiences with somebody else. Because I am not able to satisfy you sexually, because I'm sick, because I have all kinds of disabilities that don't allow me to be sexual with you anymore. But I wish I could. It really hurts me that I cannot give you everything that we share together. So it's. All of that. It's. I thought I knew my life, and suddenly I realized that for the last five weeks to five years, you know, there's a whole other story happening in the shadow of my life, where my. The hell is my head? All of that makes us go feel.

[Ashley Hess]

Like we go crazy when we learn, actually crazy. Like, you know, those moments of, like, I'm a crazy person.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

But when you put it in those terms, it's overwhelming, all of those feelings.

[Esther Perel]

It is overwhelming. It is a very overwhelming experience. And more so when it is wrapped in this notion of, I thought I was the one, how could that happen to me? Or how could you do this to me? When I work in other parts of the world? You know, I once was in Morocco with a group of young women that were working in a center together, and I gathered all of them and I just said, you know, in the US the pressure is on the woman especially. I'm talking now men, woman configurations to leave the unfaithful men. And the girl just says to me, mes madame, if we had to chase away all the unfaithful men, all of Morocco would be divorced.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

You know, she just said, this is systemic here. This is not just an issue of a relationship with its issues. And I think that is an important thing, is to not think that this only happens because there are issues inside of you or between, and that by definition, infidelity is a symptom of relationships gone awry. Infidelity has always been a systemic issue of power that existed alongside marriage, and especially when marriage was not a love affair. When marriage was not about love, but it was about companionship and economic support and family life, people went outside of marriage to seek love. But once love entered marriage and. And now you betrayed me, then it became this painful experience that we are describing.

[Ashley Hess]

Right. I think we forget how marriage started. It started so long ago.

[Esther Perel]

So long ago.

[Ashley's Partner]

So somebody could clean your house, like.

[Ashley Hess]

So you could join, like, procreate land, you know, like property.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

And children wear property too. So.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Ashley's Partner]

So I think that maybe there's like an element of all of us in order to be in a relationship is saying to yourself, I'm different. This is different.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Ashley's Partner]

And I don't think anyone starts a relationship thinking, I will fall out of love or I won't sexually be attracted to you. And, you know, Ashley and I have friends that have shared with us and just people in general that they're happy in their relationship, but it's sexless, or that they have great sexual chemistry, but they're not really in love with their partner. We've seen every version of that. But I think to get into the relationship, you have to say to yourself, it's going to be different. We are different. So if everybody's doing it, but no one wants it to happen to them, are all of our ideas of what a relationship should be?

[Esther Perel]

No, our ideas are not wrong. But we have a model that says, you know, what has happened. We wanted marriage for economic support, companionship, children, social status. Now we also want a best friend and a trusted confidant and a passionate lover to boot. And now we have the third level, which is I want the person who's going to help me become the best version of myself.

[Ashley Hess]

It's a lot.

[Esther Perel]

And we live twice as long.

[Ashley Hess]

Right. It's not realistic, but it's.

[Ashley's Partner]

I mean, it's what we all want. And, you know, it's what we get in the beginning of a relationship, we think, yeah, you know, I mean, Rain.

[Ashley Hess]

And I have that just minus.

[Ashley's Partner]

It sucks we don't fuck each other.

[Raina Greenberg]

But, you know, I think that we have the beginning of.

[Ashley's Partner]

In the relationship. You know, I'm at the very beginning of our relationship.

[Esther Perel]

This thing that you just said is very important. You don't have these issues with each other. And many people sit in my office and say, I don't have this with anybody else. And I tell them, I believe you. The only two relationships that have a resonance with each other other is the one that you had with your parents or your caregivers and the one that you have with your romantic partners.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right.

[Ashley Hess]

You're a different.

[Ashley's Partner]

I'm a different person in my relationship with Ashley.

[Esther Perel]

It doesn't evoke the same kind of issues. You don't spend your time with her wondering, am I lovable? Am I desirable? Will she leave me? Will she really care about me? Will she stand by me? Is every closeness relationship bound to hurt me, and I'm just waiting for that shoe to drop? You don't. You love her, you care for her, you work with her, and you're free from the. That angst.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. That angst actually may come out only when you date, only when you deal with partners. Male partners, female partners, doesn't matter. It's the romantic piece of it that then brings up all what you had and what you didn't have growing up that you're not trying to complement in your friendship. Some people do, but that's not what happens here.

[Ashley Hess]

Right. So it's unrealistic even to compare. But, yeah, I love that. That's so true. There's a certain way you are only with your family and your romantic partner. Your parents, specific.

[Ashley's Partner]

But I'm sure if you, like, came to my apartment or I came to yours and just, like, watched you silently in a relationship, I'd be like, who is this person?

[Ashley Hess]

We are.

[Ashley's Partner]

We exist very differently. I'm a different person with my parents, too, and that's a really good comparison. I'm a different person at home with my mom, you know?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. So we are just gonna take a quick break and talk about our partners, and then we will get back into it. I am telling you guys about smart mouth. We had a little bit of an issue with the smart mouth toothpaste in our house last night. We were brushing our teeth, and he was like, where's the smart mouth toothpaste? And I was like, I accidentally left in Vegas, so we need to get smart Mouth. But we should have the mouthwash king way in. Babe, are you liking this smart mouth?

[Ashley's Partner]

Yeah, 10 out of 10.

[Ashley Hess]

He really likes it. He's a real mouthwash person. And I never was until Smart mouth. We all know I'm a coffee drinker. I'm drinking it right now. I love me some garlic. So I really do need to be thinking about my breath. And Smart mouth has you covered. It gives you fresh breath, confidence for a night out or on a date. Peace of mind knowing you'll never wake up with morning breath again. It is the only mouthwash scientifically proven to give you 24 hours of fresh breath with just two rinses a day. The secret is their dual solution, smart zinc technology. As you pour, the two solutions activate billions of zinc ions that instantly eliminate bad breath and keep it away all day. I really do love it. It doesn't have some weird aftertaste and just gives you just a fresh mouth. Overall, we love to tell you guys it is developed by the dentist who literally wrote the encyclopedia section on bad breath. Also, what a funny thing to be in the encyclopedia. Bad breath. You just, what is it? What is it? Where does it come from? So we're just such fans of it. And they have single packs. You can make it easy. Take it on the go in your purse, luggage pocket. Like I mentioned, we're talking about the mouthwash, but also I love the toothpaste as well. So never have bad breath again. Find smart mouth at Walgreens, Walmart and Amazon or visit www.smartmouth.com GGE to snag a special discount on your next smart mouth purchase. That's www.S-M-A-R-T m o u t h.com GGE don't miss out on 24 hour fresh breath. Your mouth will thank you.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. And Helix, our longtime mattress sponsor, are the only mattresses that I have in my house.

[Ashley Hess]

House.

[Raina Greenberg]

Ashley's house, Ashley's family, my family, we are such fans of this. And a good night's sleep is the most important thing to me. I really credit it with my being able to obviously have energy throughout the day, but it just helps my skin, it helps me feel youthful. I just love a good night's sleep. I will not sacrifice it. People are always like, what is the mattresses in your house? I'm like, it's Helix. It's amazing. So if you go to their site, you'll take a quiz and they'll ask you all kinds of questions to suggest a mattress mattress for you. So do you want to address snoring, back pain, sleep apnea, sleeping too hot. Are you big and tall? Do you sleep next to another person? And they'll make suggestions for you. We love the midnight luxe, but you'll take a quiz. It takes just literally a couple minutes. I love a quiz about myself. And they'll recommend something for you. And the quality could not be better. Ashley and I have improved our sleep with this. Absolutely.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, my gosh.

[Raina Greenberg]

Love them.

[Ashley Hess]

We've been sleeping so hard. We just woke up this morning. We were voice each other like, man, I slept hard last night.

[Raina Greenberg]

And you know how much we spend time in hotels. So it is important us to come home, be in our Helix matches. So you guys can check it out. You will absolutely love it, whether it's a gift for yourself or for somebody else. Go to helixsleep.com GGE for 20% off. That's helixsleep.com GGE For 20% off. And make sure to enter our show name at checkout so they know we sent you.

[Ashley Hess]

Helixsleep.com GGE&SAKS 5th Avenue this episode is brought to you by Saks Fifth Avenue. It's just an easy way to find style inspo. We are in the thick of fall fashion. Coming up on winter fashion. Your cozy sweaters, your coats. And we say this all the time. It is such a great place to go find things that you don't see everyone else wearing. Any designer you can imagine. Their list of designers is unconscionable.

[Raina Greenberg]

Unconscionable.

[Ashley Hess]

Unconscionable.

[Raina Greenberg]

What movie is that?

[Esther Perel]

I don't know.

[Raina Greenberg]

She has the curly hair.

[Esther Perel]

It's in.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's from girls.

[Ashley Hess]

How do you say it then?

[Raina Greenberg]

Unconscionable.

[Ashley Hess]

Doesn't it have an S in there? Unconsciousable.

[Raina Greenberg]

Unconscionable.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, but there's an S. Isn't the word conscious in there?

[Raina Greenberg]

There's an S in the middle.

[Ashley Hess]

The word conscious is in there.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's not unconsciousable.

[Ashley Hess]

Anyway.

[Raina Greenberg]

Unconscionable.

[Ashley Hess]

Anyway. We love Zachs. So many incredible.

[Raina Greenberg]

Unimaginable.

[Ashley Hess]

It's unimaginable. Yeah. You have everything you need. I mean, we always mention Alice and Olivia, Bronx and Banco. We love Zhivago. We're such big fans of. And then of course, like Burberry, Gucci, Diesel, Dolce, Hermes. Anything you guys could want from really all different price points. And just shop in there. Shop by category, shop by event that you're shopping for. There's great gift guides. There's stuff for women, men, children, your Home get your fragrances, jewelry, accessories. We're just such fans of it and we are really on there. We like these days if someone asks me like, where should I look for an outfit to wear to a special event? I'm like Saks. And if you listen to girls, gotta eat. You know, we talk about every week. Yeah, yeah. So shopping, really, it should be easy and fun. They'll help you personal style in store or online. So you guys check it out. Head to Saks with Avenue or saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style every day. So can we, should we go back to this kind of expectations?

[Esther Perel]

So the expectations have never been higher. They're unprecedented. What we would want from one person. It's a really tall order for a party of two. So that's the first thing. I don't know that I would say it's a problem, but I do think, yes, there is a major challenge that is, I think, unrealistic when you want one person to give you what normally an entire village provides.

[Ashley's Partner]

Sure it's, you know, it's be my best friend and my confidant, but you know, fuck me like a porn star and you know, be the, the most fun person to go out with, but also to stay in with or I've.

[Esther Perel]

Also been waiting for you for so long and now that I met you, I will never again feel depressed. I will never feel lonely, I will never feel misunderstood, I will never feel invisible because I feel all these things with you. And now it is upon you to make sure that I never have to feel those negative, those bad, sad feelings again. So you have that mating in captivity. By the way, the first book I wrote was about people who would come into my office and say, we love each other very much, we have no secret. And it was an exploration of what is the relationship between love and desire that led me to, you know, think. Look, affairs happen for a multitude of reasons. I wanted to write Rethinking Infidelity because I wanted to see what happens when desire goes outside. And there is a whole range of things that have to do with issues in the relationship. Number one is loneliness. People feel lonely, disconnected, they don't communicate. It's been months, years that they haven't had a glance from each other. That will make you vulnerable to the kindness of strangers, period. But then there is sexlessness, violence, resentment, disconnects of all sorts. And then there is a whole other group of people, which are the people that used to say to me, I do love my partner. I have no intention of going anywhere else. And that's when I started to say, it's too easy to think that this only happens on the basis of all these negative sentiments. But that there is also a certain way in which infidelity happens, even in good couples and in people who consider themselves rather satisfied in their relationships. And then why. And that got really encapsulated in this sentence that traveled with me throughout the 10 years that I've been working with couples with infidelity. Before I wrote the book. And it was, I didn't go outside because I wanted to find another person. I went outside because I wanted to find another self. Other parts of myself that I had lost. After I got pregnant, after my mother died, after I was the one working here for years and my partner couldn't get a job. After I hardened. You know, it's the loss and the longing. I didn't want to leave my partner behind. I wanted to leave the person that I myself had become. And this idea made me then say, infidelity is about betrayal and violation and deception and lies. But it is also about longing and loss and yearning of the lives unlived.

[Ashley's Partner]

I think that's really profound. And I lived with somebody when my first boyfriend in New York, I lived with him. And he used to cheat on me just for fun, you know, just because he felt like it.

[Esther Perel]

You knew it.

[Raina Greenberg]

I felt like there was.

[Ashley's Partner]

He was always sort of like a step outside of the relationship. I felt like. I can't put my finger on why he doesn't feel like 100% a partner. But I felt like between the two of us, we had sex every day. We had fun together. We had a nice life. We did a lot of really fun things. He just felt like fucking other people. He didn't wanna not be with me. He just felt like lying to me and sleeping with other people. Because I think, like you said, outside of the relationship, he was a different person. He got to be free of expectations of a relationship with other people. And then all of those feelings of like, am I good? Am I pretty enough? I didn't even think about those things. I was like, I do feel like I'm good enough for me.

[Esther Perel]

Maybe he asked himself those questions.

[Ashley Hess]

Maybe he did.

[Esther Perel]

Maybe he needed constant affirmations so that anything female that moved needed to be a possibility of affirming his masculinity and his ego. Not just, you know, but you do want to say to people that when you choose somebody, you do let you know every choice is a loss. That is true too. You do let go of others. I would not put this guy in the category of longing and loss because you are new together. You are physical with each other every day. And yet there is a sense in which he doesn't want any restriction. He wants to continue to be and in a relationship and free as if he was totally on his own. And that is a different dance. That's one where you kind of say, you know, I mean, I would first of all say, explain this one to me. What's it up for you?

[Ashley's Partner]

It didn't feel deeper to me than that. I just felt like, you're not a nice person. I'm not interested in being with you. We sat on the show recently. I think I did stop analyzing the behavior of shitty people. To me, I didn't need to analyze the behavior. You're a liar and you're a cheater and you're just fucking other people for sport. So it didn't feel that much deeper to me than that. And we broke up and I didn't really think about it again.

[Esther Perel]

Good.

[Ashley Hess]

You know, I think we've all been touched by infidelity, like you said. And do you see couples come back from it and end up healthier on the other side? I mean, obviously there's work that needs to be done there, but I typically.

[Esther Perel]

Would divide it in three outcomes. I used to see people, you know, if they come to me rather than the lawyer and generally want to discuss something, they at least want to consider the possibility of staying together. What are they going to do with it? Is it salvageable? You know, what is this about? My first thing is to say, let's explore the meaning of this. It's the meaning of it that will tell you if the couple has a life afterwards. And what kind of life? Not the data, the facts. Did you do it standing, sleeping? You know, that kind of stuff that the sordid details that people want to mine for that don't really help you understand what does this infidelity say about this relationship and do to this relationship? There are people who split. There are people who stay together, but they are not at the bone in a marital cell forever. Every time one of them is five minutes late, they remind each other, you know, I can never count on you, I can never rely on you, I can never trust you because this happened and this happened and there is no healing whatsoever. Then there are people who say, this was a terrible crisis. We have a bigger life to live. We have family, we have kids, we have careers, we have parents, we have extended family. We put this aside and they never talk about it again. And then you have people who say, what is the message in the bottle? What is this telling us? Where did we become complacent? Where did we stop paying attention to each other? Where haven't we gone on a date since the kids were born? Got knows what? Where have you not looked at me and complimented me? Where have we not touched each other and caressed each other and just said, I see you. We allowed this to happen. We created such a gap in between. And they see this and they say, or, you know, you made me feel undesirable, or you rejected me constantly, or I don't want to just, you know, be told, not tonight, not tonight, not tonight. For years on end, we're not talking weeks. So this is the couples that I have most to do with. Because something happened in the relationship. This became an expression. The work you do is what does the relationship need at this point? How do you reconnect with each other? What have you not told each other? Look, there's so many variations. And that's the stuff you don't see in the magazines. You know, the person who discovers a history of sexual abuse and family is not the place where you heal. Family is the place where you were hurt, goes outside, meets someone, experiences herself sexually for the first time, comes home, wants to be with the partner, but couldn't do it with the partner. That is a story I have heard more than once. Older people, different stories here, but probably some of the parents of the people who listen to us today, where one person is no longer completely present and the other person goes to visit them every day. But in order to stay alive, they need to connect to someone. You can't imagine the amount of people that have come to me at the end of a talk to ask, is this also considered infidelity? You know, and that's when you say it is not black and white. It is not good and bad. It is not the saint and the perpetrator and the victim. If you want, it's a little more complicated. And since it happens in so many families, we have got to make room for these nuances and not just go quick for the judgment. In every direction. In every direction, including for the many young women who listen to us today, the biggest one is taking him back, taking her back, taking them back.

[Ashley's Partner]

I think that we grow up thinking it's a very black and white thing, or at least I did. Cheating is bad, cheaters are terrible. And women especially that take cheaters back. How could you do Something like that. Why are you so weak? And it's not like that at all. And it's such a gray area on both sides. And there's a million reasons why you would cheat. And there's a million reasons why you would take somebody back. And it's so layered and so deep. And I just. I don't think of cheating and taking somebody back as being this, like, black and white thing. It's so, so, so deep and even. Like, what is cheating?

[Esther Perel]

What if we change the words? And what you call the cheater is actually a person who has felt for years now that you were too busy to pay her, him, them at any attention. Yeah. And now suddenly you woke up.

[Ashley Hess]

We always reference Sex and the City. We can't help it. But they were the first time. The movie was the first time. I feel like something I watched explored cheating in that way where it was like, they said the line, well, you broke a vow, too. You know, like, we hadn't seen that, really. We had seen a lot of black and white cheating. But I feel like they were the. To really tackle it. And, like, why this happened, why Steve felt neglected in the marriage, why she had violated their vows as well. And I just. And the friends were rallying around her and, like, reflect on yourself, Miranda, and forgive him as opposed to, like, him. He's a cheater. Once a cheater, always a cheater. So that was the first time I. It shifted my mind a little bit. And, you know, I know it's a fictional show and movie, but. But I think that helped us all.

[Esther Perel]

See, it basically said there is one person who's responsible for the affair or the infidelity or the cheating. But there's two people who may be responsible for the degradation of the relationship. And if you let this thing fall so dry and so desert, you need to own that, too. It's so easy to instantly put yourself in the role of the victim of a cheater. And that's why the language is a very, you know, if instead of calling that person the cheater, you call that the person who finally said, I can't accept this anymore. I can't live. Like, I can't be ignored, rejected, you know, unseen days on end, years on end, and then suddenly the other person wakes up because they now could feel the loss.

[Ashley Hess]

Absolutely.

[Ashley's Partner]

I mean, why should you be in a sexless marriage if somebody won't sleep with you for years on end and won't touch you and won't notice you and won't consider you or ask you.

[Esther Perel]

How are you or ask you why, how was your day? Or wonder, do you need anything? Or help you? When they see you running around trying to do five things at the same time. All of that, it's all.

[Ashley's Partner]

That's the same.

[Esther Perel]

It's every element of emotional deprivation.

[Ashley's Partner]

So when somebody does cheat and you're considering if you're the one that's been cheated on, and you're thinking, can I take this person back? Are there things that you. You said something in the book where you said, you know, I tell people that their current marriage is over and that they are gonna embark on a new marriage with that same person. And I thought that was really interesting. So how can we begin to, like, forgive somebody? And do we forgive somebody?

[Esther Perel]

I mean, look, there's a difference if you're two years together or 20 years. First of all, there's a difference if there's a family involved or not. You're that guy who is like, you know, you left right on time. And if not even sooner. It's like, there's nothing to talk about. The guy is not just the fact that he's cheating. It's also that he cannot really be in an intimate relationship. Relationship with you. It's not what they do outside, it's what they're not doing inside. So the next thing is, you know, I think the first thing is the distinction at first. When I find out that I've been lied to, that I've been betrayed, that there's been a secret, etc. The first thing I need is an acknowledgment that this is true. You have to acknowledge the facts. If you have a person who starts to deny it or who gaslights you, starts to think you invented it, oh, it's because of what happened at home. It's because your father cheated on you. And so now you see, you know, and starts to twist your mind around, that's a whole other story. So the first thing when somebody has hurt someone is that someone acknowledges it, owns it, feels remorse for it, and feels guilty no matter what reasons they had. If that's the starting point, every hurt is I. I did that. And I own. And I see, you know, you haven't slept, you haven't eaten. I see that I own it to take responsibility. The second step is now can we talk about why this has happened as well? And that's a conversation of the two of us. Why did this happen? What's the meaning of this story? And then you sit and you say, what is in our relationship? Does our relationship have Enough pulp still left that we can kind of, you know, still squeeze some juice out of this. Or do we look at each other and we like, you know, there is nothing to resurrect. And that's the story. The story is not just do you take that person back? It's not what, how is that partner to you, for example? I've seen stories. I mean, it's multi, you know, while the guy in this case, it's a man, you know, has a relationship for about two years or so with another woman, he's taking care of her dying mother, he's taking care of, of her alcoholic brother. I mean, he is the caregiver. And we find out a lot of why the affair was so interesting for him. But the fact was it wasn't so simple to say, what an asshole, what a jerk, what a piece of shit. Because you've got different things happening all at the same time. And I think when people manage to still hold on to the good parts of the person, there is a relationship that can be resurrected when all they see is just this. It's very hard when it's repeat offender. It's very hard for me.

[Ashley Hess]

It would be so big on, on the lie. You know, I think that it feels different than you got drunk at this bachelor party and you slept with somebody else, as opposed to like you're having a full blown affair and you're texting when I'm making you dinner with another woman and you're lying to my face every day. Like, can a person who lies to your face every day change? Or, you know, like I, I feel like that's where you can't shake the, like you lied to me and betrayed me. That's who you are as a person. I guess that's how my mind would work. And like I've always said this, you know, it's, it feel, it would feel so different than having another full blown relationship as opposed to like you slept with somebody, you know, while we weren't doing great when you were out of town. You know, those feel so vastly different to me and I'm sure that's just what's so hard to get. I'm like, you're a sociopath. You know, you, you, you just looked me in the face and lied to me for two years or whatever it is.

[Ashley's Partner]

So maybe some of it's like holding up a mirror. Not to you, but to somebody and saying like, what did you do while I was doing that? Did you make me dinner? Like, were you sleeping with me? Did you acknowledge for sure.

[Ashley Hess]

For sure, right? Yeah. It's 100. There's two different stories there. There's like, I was being a great partner and I was not.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right.

[Ashley's Partner]

I think you're coming from that perspective. I was being a great partner and you lied to.

[Ashley Hess]

And I don't have this situation to speak on, so I, you know, I can't speak on it. So I'm just kind of. That's. I always think about that, though. Like, the line is the cardinal sin to me.

[Esther Perel]

One thing I can say to you is that whatever people think they will do and feel is not necessarily what happens to them.

[Ashley Hess]

100% agree. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Because it happens in a context. And when that happens, you may be that person that says this. I cannot. Every day I'm going to sit in front of you and I'm going to wonder if you're texting somebody else underneath the table, if when you go to the bathroom, you're actually going to the bathroom, et cetera. And other people will say, we have a whole life and I don't want to lose that life. And they will also ask about the phone and everything. They will wonder if you went to that restaurant when they drive by it. They will wonder if, you know, if your partner took that person to the one place that was the most special place of you and that they trampled to the most sacred things that you share together and said, etc. And yet it's an extraordinary thing. People overcome that crisis. People reconnect. Part of my work was to go back to people I had seen two, five, ten years later and ask them, what happened to you? What happened to your relationships? Because most of the time, the therapist kind of doesn't stay in the long run of that. And it was very hopeful to see betrayals happen in relationships, breaches of trust happen. There's all kinds of lies. For some people, this is an impossible lie. For the other is the fact that you took whatever money we had and you gave it to your sister when we had nothing ourselves, and you knew that she was never going to give it back. How could you deplete us in this way? So this dynamic, the lies, there's variations thereof, and I don't think there is a right answer. You know, your integrity, you know, what you can tolerate. But all I can say is when it happens, it happens in a context. And it is for some people, very clear. They know exactly, I'm out, I'm gone. Others, I have no choice, I stay. I have no job. Where am I going? I have a child. With disability, where am I going? I mean, and then you have others who are saying, watch me, watch me. And now I'm going to make you work for this relationship.

[Ashley Hess]

I've seen that. I've seen. I know a couple of things. They're married with children, but he cheated. And I just felt. I think there are a lot, but it's been years. But I think she really made him pay for it.

[Ashley's Partner]

But that's.

[Ashley Hess]

Do you have any. I mean, this is such a loaded question, but how do you trust again? I mean, everybody's gotta be so different. I mean, we're all wired differently.

[Esther Perel]

Trust is an active. You know, trust is a leap of faith. Trust is an active. As Rachel Buttsman says it beautifully, it's an active engagement with the unknown. If you need to know, you're not trusting. So if I need to know where you're going and when you're coming back and how you're going to go from here to there, et cetera, et cetera, I'm surveilling you. That is not trust.

[Ashley Hess]

It's a choice. You're saying, like, you have to choose.

[Esther Perel]

What is it that I need to trust? I don't just need to trust that you're not going to do this again. That's one thing. But what I really need to trust is that you're thinking of me. What I need to trust is that you actually care about an infidelity. It's a loss of value. You. I thought I mattered, and you made me feel like I mattered nothing. You. How could you forget? You were, like, sitting in that hotel and I didn't exist anymore. Your whole life disappeared when you would be in that hotel room. Did you not think about us? Did you not think about the children? Did you not think about what that would do to me? That's the.

[Ashley Hess]

You know, I feel like I'm gonna cry. I just feel like so many people are gonna listen to this in their car and be like, that's how I felt.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. And I mean, I cry with the people. I feel it when they say it. I mean, I can cry when I say it, because this is the hurt. The fact that you're not going to do it again. So you can have somebody who's never going to do it again. That doesn't mean they're going to touch you, talk to you, care about you, support you. So what? They don't do it again. They sit there like this. You want to lock or you want a partner who really. So the trust is. Is feeling that I Am valued again that you think of me. It's the many, many little things you do that remind me that I'm on your mind. We're driving, we're going past the place. You see that face? I have. I don't have to ask you. And you say, no, I didn't come here. And then my nervous system relaxes. I know you know that I know that you know you know that I think. And you go ahead of me. And I call that to be the vigilante of the relationship. You know, where you care about the relationship and you're making sure to protect the relationship. And that's an active job for a long time. I give it two years.

[Ashley Hess]

Two years on the other person, on the cheater to.

[Esther Perel]

And on the trust membrane to come back.

[Ashley Hess]

I love that you said that. It's not just I was the person who was cheated on. I have to forgive you. It's that you have to. To help me trust you again.

[Esther Perel]

And I'll tell you another part about the trust. There's another big one that I want because you were saying, I can imagine listening to this and people listening when this happens. And my whole relationship, my whole reality, sorry, is fractured. I can't think, is this real? Is the ground I stand on real? Is what I thought we had. What we had is where we were there. Were we really there, or were you somewhere? And I ask you questions, and I ask you questions. And often we ask it a multitude of times because we're trying to piece back the reality. It's unbearable to the person who has to answer, no, I didn't. I've told you already. And then I say to the person who did go outside. I say, look, your partner isn't doing this to annoy you. Your partner is doing this because they just can't keep reality in their hand. It's falling through their fingers. And so the mind makes the. And repeat it again and again and again. If you can answer not from a place of, you know, it's been six months and you, you know that kind of thing. But just simply you say you're. You're. You're having an attack again, right? You're getting that thing again. And you just answer. That builds trust.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, just gonna take another quick break and we will get back into it, okay? And it is coach season, everybody. If you are not watching on YouTube, get over there to see us all bundled up in our Columbia Amaze puff jackets. So we are so obsessed with these and can't wait to be in the cold weather. To wear them. Just gonna pack these up and head to the east coast. But we both have the Amaze puff long hooded jacket. Mine is in dark stone and Reyna's is in black and we love how warm and cozy and comfortable they are. And I just love how long jacket looks in general. So Chicago.

[Ashley's Partner]

Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

And we do love the long, but the amaze puff coat also comes in a short and medium length as well. And they have 11 colorways so you can pick your perfect look. And I love the soft material and the thumb holes. I love a thumb hole. And they're weather resistant and if you can't tell, they are down jackets. So again, super warm.

[Ashley Hess]

Like wearing a hug, you know, I'm not a hugger, but I love the way this jacket feels. So maybe I'm turning a corner.

[Raina Greenberg]

She hugs now only.

[Ashley Hess]

Am I a mace buff.

[Raina Greenberg]

Thanks Columbia. So you guys head to columbia.com to get your hands on an amaze puff jacket. They are tough on cold, soft on you. Okay. And this show is brought to you by Better Help with the holidays coming up, I can't recommend therapy more. I mean, whatever you want to address, whether it's sibling drama, I think a lot of people start to get really in their head about where they are in life when they go home for the holidays. Are you in a relationship? What's your career look like? I mean, any way you could just talk to somebody and really just sort out how you're feeling? What are your goals? It's really helpful to just be able to talk to a therapist and Better help. Therapists work according to strict code of conduct. They're fully licensed in the US they have a therapist match commitment. So they do the initial matching work for you to focus on the type of therapy goals that you have. So you'll tell them what you're looking for in terms of therapy and whether you want to deal with anxiety or drawing better boundaries or whatever it is in your life you want to address. There's a short questionnaire and they'll help you identify a therapist for you. And they have over 30,000 therapists. Better help is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5. So can't recommend it enough. If you are ready to find the right therapist for you, Better Help can help you start the journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] GGE that's Better Help. H E L P.com GG okay.

[Ashley Hess]

And by now, you have probably heard of Built, where you could earn points on your monthly rent payment. But did you know they make it possible for you to get more outside of your home too? So I have just been seeing this in more places a lot of times. Workout Studios. I see it. So I'd love to see that people support Built and they use Built. So by paying your rent through bilt, you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed towards hundreds of hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride home, and more. Like I mentioned, I've been seeing it in all these different Workout studios, but it doesn't stop there. Built is about making your entire neighborhood more rewarding. You can dine out at your favorite local restaurants and earn additional people points, get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios, and enjoy exclusive experiences just for Built members every month. Built is turning a monthly expense into an opportunity to earn rewards and discover the best your neighborhood has to offer. Your rent is finally working for you. I mean, this is what I'm saying. It's all around my neighborhood. Literally everywhere. Yeah. So you can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood, wherever you call home, by going to join built.com GGE that's J-O-I-N B I L T.com G G E. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you.

[Ashley's Partner]

And I. I'm sure that's a little bit more black and white, but what do you say to a person that says, I've been cheated on and I love my partner and I. I can't let it go. I can't stop bringing this up. Every time we drive past this hotel, this restaurant, every time they're five minutes late, like, I really want to be with him, I can't let it go. I'm so angry.

[Esther Perel]

There's a lot of things you say. The first thing is, I mean, this is not in order here, but one is, tell me more about the anger. Is this just vis a vis his. Him or her? Is this the first time? Do you have a history with this? Did this happen in your family? What. What fuels that level of anger? Is it because you have a partner who has never truly apologized and owned it? There is that. That is often one of the main things that maintains the anger on the other side is on some fundamental level, I don't really feel like you get it right. You. You apologize, but it's like you and you still feel entitled to it. Type thing. Type, you know, so it's what. What Fuels it. What holds it alive like that. But I have had situations where a person has done all the right things and the partner still can't let go. And sometimes, by the way, and this is really a big piece of the hidden secrets of couples, is because I picked you because I thought you wouldn't do this.

[Ashley Hess]

I keep making the sound. I feel like I'm Michael Babaro in the Daily. I'm like, yeah, so I'm going to take it down. And not everything's just so profound. Sorry. Keep going. I started derailed.

[Esther Perel]

You know that thing? It's like, yeah, didn't marry the guy or choose the guy or choose the woman that I really wanted to be with. This could be two men having the same conversation, for sure.

[Ashley Hess]

Of course. Yeah, we want to know.

[Esther Perel]

I chose you because I thought you were the safe choice. And you betrayed the private deal I made with myself. When you pick a partner, you often also have a deal that you make with yourself. And what sometimes makes it very hard for some people to forgive is actually less about what you did to me as about how mad I am at myself that I misjudged. And there's a narcissistic piece in that. And so you have people who have done everything three, four years of all the making amends necessary. And at some point, they say, that person is not letting the relationship be rebuilt, and they end up leaving.

[Ashley's Partner]

Yeah. Do you say to people sometimes, like, neither of you are happy? You're not happy? You're never gonna let this go. It's time to walk away.

[Esther Perel]

I don't say it like this because I don't think that I am the one who will measure happiness. And I don't think that happiness is really what all of this has to do with. But I will sometimes say, you know, resentment sometimes is like sweating, swallowing poison, and waiting for the other person to die.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You are in a prison here together. Is that how you want to keep it going?

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

I can't help you with that.

[Ashley Hess]

And then, I mean, we've had so many incredible therapists on the show. A lot of it is just like, maybe this was never a match to begin with. You know, like when we talked to Ian of, like, maybe these people didn't pick each other in the right way to begin with, and there is no repairing this relationship sometimes. I've listened to your podcast. The podcast, yes, I do.

[Esther Perel]

Just remind me of an episode. This is an incredible episode on. Where should we begin? The guy and the woman each had an affair with each other. They are Affair partners. They then decide to marry. They then have children. He also forces her to have a couple of abortions. He then has affairs on her. And she. We become clear there is a part of her that is determined to stay with him because somewhere she can't accept that. She told her father, fuck off, I know what I'm doing. And she made a mistake.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And at the end of the episode, I literally say to them, I think you have a better chance at being friends. But as a couple, I don't see it.

[Ashley Hess]

I love that example of. It ties back into obviously like ego and your own self of holding onto a relationship to prove something to someone like your father or your friends or.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, you're talking about matches and why we pick people. Sometimes you pick people not because of the person you pick, but because of another person that you're saying something else to or.

[Ashley's Partner]

We know people that are in relationships. It's like everybody hates the partner and.

[Ashley Hess]

It'S like us against the world. They have like us, you know, like, we're in this together. And there's.

[Ashley's Partner]

You guys are all wrong about him and I'm right and you're so. You've like, you're too pot committed to ever back down at that point.

[Esther Perel]

What is the thing that has reached you in what we just described? I'm very curious where it landed on each of you.

[Ashley Hess]

Probably the. You beat yourself up because you thought this person was different and you made a decision. So, I mean, everybody knows this about me. Like, I'm just part of myself. And so when I feel like I made a mistake or I feel like I didn't do something. Right. That's really.

[Esther Perel]

You would be more angry at yourself than at the partner who betrays you.

[Ashley Hess]

Right. I mean, I guess the betrayal too, but there's. I just. That. That really spoke to me because I hadn't totally thought about that of. I picked you because I thought you were different because I thought you would be the person who was always going to love me and not betray me. And so like the anger at yourself too, of like how it does. How did I go so wrong here? I guess that spoke to me the most. Yeah.

[Ashley's Partner]

Well, one of the things in your book State of Affairs that spoke to me the most, that you even hammered home more today, was that just how unblack and white this is. And outside of my ex who just cheated on me for sport and for fun, there's so many layers to why we cheat and why we take people back and that there's two people in every relationship. And so much about reframing the. The word cheater and looking at like, why did they do these things? Ash and I always say we're not apologists for cheaters, you know, but this idea of like.

[Esther Perel]

So I need to make that clear as well.

[Ashley's Partner]

No, you made it really clear.

[Esther Perel]

I wanted to bring the complexity out, but I am the last one to promote, to encourage, to, you know, to be very, very clear on that.

[Ashley's Partner]

It did not feel like that. It just this idea that there's two of you in this relationship and, you know, everyone is contributing in a certain way. And maybe one person cheats, but the other, other person might not have acknowledged you had sex with you, told you they're proud of you for years. And so it's a very layered thing. And I think we think of cheaters as being terrible, you know, and it's not always that.

[Esther Perel]

And you don't cheat for sex, by the way. This is the other thing. It's very important to, you know, look, I tend to spend more time with people who have been together for a while now. I'm not talking about the young one year and a half relationship, but when people have been together, even if they want the sex, what they want is someone who finds me beautiful, who is interested in me, who enjoys touching me, who isn't just, you know, coming in, out and not ever, ever wondering about my pleasure, who enjoys my experience. It's someone who makes me feel important, special, not lonely. It's that and through the sex. But the sex is the language for those feelings. It's not that in and of itself for other people. It's an unencumbered sex, a sex that is free of pain or free of obligation or free of anxiety. But it is, it is always wrapped with something. Your guy, his issue is that he has zero regard for other people that use as a model, you know, go grow up and then come back and have a relationship.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, and we, we say that sometimes too, you know, like we have a. We do have a lot of younger listeners. And sometimes it's the simple answer is that you guys are 21, you know, so. No, no one's ready for commitment. I, I did want to, but you.

[Esther Perel]

Can be ready for love at 21.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, for sure. I didn't mean to say that yet. But sometimes it can just be as simple as. As that of this person needs to grow up. They're just because they cheated when they were 19 or 20. I cheated when I was 18 or 19 years old. I'm not like Once a cheater, always a cheater. But I want to just. And we don't have you much longer. But you brought up this thing. And I don't know if there's a short answer to this, but Rain and I have discussed this so many times. And just what we talked about, the beginning of, like, the quote, unquote, unrealistic expectations, like wanting all this from a partner, is that just kind of self talk and internal work and discussions with ourselves? And like, that isn't really realistic. I mean, how do you combat that? Because it isn't realistic.

[Esther Perel]

It's a cultural thing. So you can't address big cultural things. Just alone, you know, we have moved from talking about our partners as best friends, which to me was always strange.

[Ashley Hess]

Thank you, Esther.

[Raina Greenberg]

Go off.

[Esther Perel]

People have best friends.

[Ashley Hess]

Today I'm marrying my best friend. My best friend is right here. She's like, what?

[Esther Perel]

Yes, you have best friends. Your partner is your partner. But I understood that there was a cultural shift. I didn't come from that. But now it becomes, I'm marrying my soulmate. And, you know, for most of history, a soulmate and the one and only that was God. It wasn't a person. This notion that a person will become the place where you're going to experience ecstasy and wholeness and meaning and transcendence. Stuff that people looked for in the realm of the divine now becomes romantic love. So this is where we are. And I just want. First of all, this is a model. This is not true. This hasn't always been this way. And this is not this way. A few borders further. Just. We get that now. From that point on, understand something. Have best friends, have a community. What sustains a couple is the people around it as much as the people that. And what happens between them. Have good relationships with other people who are meaningful to whom you can talk about things that you can't always talk to with your partner, because that's how it is. And if you have those people and you don't just use them to complain about your partner, but to amplify, to complete the relationship. And especially for the dudes, because they're the ones who lose their friends more than the girls, and they become isolated. And their girls are like, the woman is the primary person, the minister of social affairs. Basically, that connects them. Two men, different dynamic on that one. But stay in touch with your close friends from before. I ask so many people, how often do you see your friends and alone, not always as a couple alone. You have relationships with these people, some of them from College, some of them from school, from way back when. Keep that. It's very, very important. That's the beginning. Because that's an easy thing to do. And don't think that if your partner wants to go see somebody, it means you're not enough. Once you go with the. You're not enough. I should be everything for you. You have swallowed the model whole, and the model will eat you up alive.

[Ashley Hess]

I love that. And I'll say one last thing. My parents have been married for 40 years. We really think they're like the anomaly. And their secret, when people ask, is that they have separate lives outside of each other and so many other relationships outside of each other, and they're just apart, doing their own things.

[Esther Perel]

And what is the knot that they have as well? Because that is a model that I value very much as well.

[Ashley Hess]

They're together a lot, too. I mean, we have our family. We're a really close family. They do travel together and they enjoy the same things, but they have separate.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, they have a Venn diagram in which there's a strong core and then big circles of individuality. And those often are relationships that sustain. But sustain is one thing. 40 years is nice. But longevity is not the only marker of success. It's that they're alive.

[Ashley Hess]

They're the best. They're alive.

[Esther Perel]

What you want in a relationship is energy and aliveness. You don't just want it to not be dead.

[Ashley Hess]

They're alive. They are just the best.

[Esther Perel]

That's right.

[Ashley's Partner]

Well, it's what we've hammered home on this show for three and a half years. And you've hammered home for us also, which is just to have a life that you're excited about outside your partner. And your partner will compliment those things. And that's a great place to start.

[Esther Perel]

If you measure that. And you say, there's something missing in my relationship. And every time you go somewhere else, it's because you think it's missing you really. You're doing yourself a real disservice. So a lot of the, you know, I. I'm doing couples therapy almost 40 years. I know it's about helping people reconnect with the sources of meaning and joy that are important in their lives, that are away from the partner, so that when you come back, you've got something to tell, you've got energy to bring into the relationship. Otherwise, people sit there with each other. Have you sat in restaurants?

[Ashley Hess]

We watch those couples all the time.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's all I do.

[Ashley's Partner]

I will sit in a restaurant with Ashley and Just be like, look at that couple.

[Esther Perel]

Look at that couple.

[Ashley Hess]

And they don't have anything do to because they didn't do anything outside of each other, you know.

[Raina Greenberg]

Absolutely.

[Esther Perel]

And then I watch them at lunch and I see, you know, when people used to still have lunch and meetings and stuff, and you would see people sitting across each other, well dressed and alive and energized and engaged with each other. And I always would ask myself, and which one of them is here with their partner?

[Ashley Hess]

Uh huh.

[Esther Perel]

Uh huh. Very few. Oh, shoot.

[Ashley Hess]

And then, you know, this feels like.

[Ashley's Partner]

A good time to tell people where to find your podcast.

[Esther Perel]

Know you your box, estherperell.com the podcasts, estherperell.com podcast, Spotify or anywhere where you listen to your podcasts.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, well, hope you guys enjoyed this re release and this unearthed video that I found for you. And I mean, it's just, you know, it was incredible to rewatch and re listen for us as well. So we hope you guys enjoyed it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes, congrats to you. And if you guys are interested in more, Esther Perel official is her Instagram State of Affairs and Mating in Captivity are two of her books. They're both phenomenal. And her podcast, where should we Begin? Is everywhere you find podcasts. So lots of ways to access My mom, Esther Pearl.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, mother. She is mother.

[Raina Greenberg]

She's my mother.

[Ashley Hess]

And girlsgotteat.com get those tickets for our two and two only holiday shows in Newark and LA in December. Girls Gotta eat Podcast on Instagram and tick tock. I am Ash Hess. Not changing my name.

[Raina Greenberg]

Is he changing his name? What if he hyphenated his name?

[Ashley Hess]

He doesn't like that joke. Well, yeah, it was like when you introduced us. Is it like the Hasseltine, Mr. And Mrs. Hasselt Azul's parents. I again, I match house. Raina is Raina Greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend and we will see you Thursday. I won't be here. Raina's gonna have a guest host.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes, I am.

[Ashley Hess]

So it's gonna be a super fun episode of the Snack. Don't like it tonight too much, you guys. But.

[Raina Greenberg]

But it'll be a friend of ours. It'll be a repeat guest.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes, it'll be great. So we'll see you there.

[Raina Greenberg]

Have a good week, guys.

[Esther Perel]

Bye.