How to Enjoy Your Life Even if You Hate Your Job feat. Guy Winch

Summary

Podcast Summary: Girls Gotta Eat

Episode: How to Enjoy Your Life Even if You Hate Your Job feat. Guy Winch
Date: February 9, 2026
Hosts: Ashley Hesseltine & Rayna Greenberg
Guest: Dr. Guy Winch

Episode Overview

This episode explores how work impacts our lives, especially when we hate our jobs, and how to find enjoyment outside of work. Psychologist and author Dr. Guy Winch joins Ashley and Rayna for his third appearance to discuss key findings from his new book, Mind Over Grind, focusing on burnout, work-life boundaries, and practical strategies for reclaiming your emotional well-being—even in a toxic or unsatisfying work environment. The conversation is candid, insightful, and sprinkled with the hosts' trademark humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Work Has Taken Over Our Lives

[27:36] Guy Winch:

• Work has invaded multiple aspects of our lives beyond the workplace.
• Increased research shows many elements of our personalities and lives “get amputated” due to over-devotion to work, toxic workplaces, or simply being overly driven.
• Dr. Winch wanted to examine (and address) how work impacts us both at work and outside of it, and how we can start to break free.

“How is work impacting us in the workplace, but especially outside of the workplace? And what can we do to counter that and break free?”
— Guy Winch [00:00]

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2. How Work Stress Infects Home and Relationships

• Work stress is contagious; one partner’s chronic work stress can cause the other to develop burnout symptoms ([28:57]).
• Our unconscious brain over-prioritizes work because it sees where we spend most of our time and what provides financial security ([29:38]).
• Preoccupation with work can make interactions feel like intrusions, freezing us out from meaningful connections with family and friends.

“When one partner is really chronically stressed, the other partner will start developing symptoms of burnout. That's how much that transfer happens.”
— Guy Winch [28:57]

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3. The Current State of Work Culture and Burnout

• Despite greater awareness of burnout and the importance of self-care, burnout and stress still reach new highs ([32:12]).
• Job hugging: People stay in jobs out of fear that finding a new one will be worse or too hard.
• Transition to work-from-home erased boundaries—emails and tasks bleed into personal hours. On average, people do an extra 8 hours of “off-hours” work email per week ([33:11]).

“You know, the phenomenon of job hugging... people are just staying in the job they have because... who knows if that one's going to be any better?”
— Guy Winch [32:14]

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4. Work-Life Balance Is (Mostly) in Your Head

• Rituals, boundaries, and how we define ourselves play a big role in countering the stress spillover from work ([39:49]; [40:57]).
• For non-entrepreneurs, work may not allow self-expression—think: creativity, humor, goofiness—that is crucial to personal fulfillment.

“It starts in your head. It starts with, where is the clarity? Where does work end and you begin?”
— Guy Winch [39:57]

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5. The Myth of “Having It All” and Toxic Hustle Culture

• Millennials were raised on hustle culture, girlbossing, and the message that your job is your identity ([41:17]).
• Instead of letting job define 100% of who you are, actively cultivate “what else” defines you. Ask: “If your job disappeared tomorrow, what would be left?”

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6. When to Stay, When to Go: Work Change Guidance

• Dr. Winch cautions against direct negotiation in toxic workplaces—it often makes people a target for layoffs or retaliation ([45:10]).
• Focus on what you can change for yourself first—outside interests, boundaries, reframing stress.
• Only make a job switch after securing another job; being unemployed makes job-hunting harder and personally demoralizing ([46:42]).

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7. Fighting Work Encroachment: Techniques and Rituals

End-of-Day Rituals

• The “workday ends when you stop thinking about work”—not when the clock says so ([34:30]; [55:07]).
• Ritual helps: Change your lighting, clothing, and scent when the day’s over to train your brain to “switch off” work ([52:47]).
• Make transitions multi-sensory; showers, walks, playlists, and physically changing clothes all help.

“The more senses you involve, the deeper the ritual resonates... You are signaling your brain that I'm done with this part of the day and I'm starting that part of the day.”
— Guy Winch [54:15]

Framing After-Hours Work

• If you must deal with email or tasks at night, mentally frame them as "an intermission" from life, rather than “still working”—this allows easier disengagement ([52:48]).

Using Calendars

• Block off “personal time” in your calendar. The brain takes this seriously and commits to the boundary ([55:56]).

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8. Sunday Scaries and the Dreaded Workweek

• The feeling of dread before Monday reveals just how much stress you face ([56:12]).
• Antidote: Schedule something enjoyable for Monday morning that you can look forward to—coffee, workout, favorite podcast (such as Girls Gotta Eat!), meeting a friend ([57:14]; [57:31]).
• Try to avoid Monday morning meetings as a manager, for yourself and your team ([59:42]).

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9. Talking About Work at Home: The Emotional Toll

• Beware of venting or discussing work excessively at home—your unconscious latches onto this narrative and keeps you in a stress mode ([65:20]).
• “Be more accurate”—don’t overgeneralize (“my whole job is awful”); specify, appreciate positives, and acknowledge both the good and bad ([66:45]; [67:25]).

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10. Supporting Stressed Partners

• If your partner continually brings work stress home, ask them what’s actually helpful—set agreed times or boundaries for venting ([72:03]).
• If they’re too depleted to even consider help or change, they may be truly burned out; intervention or professional support may be necessary.

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11. Rest, Recharge, and Your Battery

• The body doesn’t distinguish well between physical and emotional/mental fatigue ([75:01]).
• Just “relaxing” isn’t enough—you must actually recharge by doing activities that fulfill you, whether social, physical, or creative.
• To feel energized, balance your day—if work is draining, seek restorative activities in your downtime ([77:29]).

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12. Vacationing Wisely

• A 1-week vacation is better than a marathon 3-weeker—multiple short vacations provide more total benefit ([79:23]).
• Prepare for vacation by resting up beforehand, packing in advance, and organizing your travel—don’t arrive exhausted ([80:26]).
• Triple dip: Anticipate and plan in advance, enjoy while there, and then relive via photos and organizing memories after the trip ([81:14]; [83:03]).
• Don’t let documenting override living your vacation—get “the shot,” then put the phone away and truly enjoy ([84:49]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On partner stress transfer:
  “When one partner is really chronically stressed, the other partner will start developing symptoms of burnout.”
  — Guy Winch [28:57]

• On overworking and hustle culture:
  “It's not your job defines you, but what else defines you? Can there be aspects that are not about the job?”
  — Guy Winch [41:37]

• On job-hopping vs. job-hugging:
  “Job hugging... people are just staying in the job they have because, you know, it's just too difficult to find another one. And who knows if that one's going to be any better.”
  — Guy Winch [32:14]

• On creating separation from work:
  “You are signaling your brain that I'm done with this part of the day and I'm starting that part of the day.”
  — Guy Winch [54:15]

• On Sunday scaries:
  "A lot of people get, right, the dread on Sunday of, like, the work week is about to begin. First of all, what that shows you is how stressful your job is..."
  — Guy Winch [56:12]

• On positivity at work:
  “Make sure that when you're doing the things, even if it's daily, you're expressing the appreciation again to yourself. ... it lifts you. It gives you some ability to exhale.”
  — Guy Winch [69:19]

• Ritual advice:
  "Change your lighting when you get home. Change your clothes... The more senses you involved, the deeper the ritual resonates."
  — Guy Winch [52:47]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro / Anniversary Reflections & Banter: [00:24–13:00]
• Rayna’s Stand-Up Tour and Conquering Fear: [07:27–10:58]
• Guy Winch Introduction & Why He Wrote Mind Over Grind: [26:13–27:36]
• How Work Stress Spills Over at Home: [28:46–31:47]
• Current Workplace Culture & Increasing Burnout: [32:12–34:30]
• Remote Work, Boundaries & Extra Work Creep: [33:11–34:30]
• What Is (and Isn’t) Work-Life Balance: [39:49–40:57]
• Negotiating Job Change & What to Do First: [45:10–46:42]
• Toxic Workplace Incivility and Effects: [46:42–50:29]
• How to Truly End Your Workday – Rituals: [51:06–54:41]
• Sunday Scaries & Monday Rituals: [56:03–59:26]
• How to Talk (and Not Talk) About Work at Home: [64:53–66:45]
• How to Support a Burnt-Out Partner: [71:29–74:32]
• Recharging Physically vs. Mentally: [75:01–77:43]
• Vacation Planning, Triple Dipping, & Presence: [78:48–85:08]

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Final Thoughts & Resources

Dr. Winch’s advice resonates for anyone who feels overwhelmed, undervalued, or simply "over it" at work, but powerless to change. His core message:
You may not be able to change your job, boss, or industry overnight—but you can change how you manage your energy, rituals, and the boundaries between your work and your real life.

Book:
Mind Over Grind by Dr. Guy Winch
Available everywhere (audio, ebook, print). More info: guywinch.com

Girls Gotta Eat:
Instagram & TikTok: @girlsgottaeatpodcast
Tour info: Raina Greenberg
Share with a friend, subscribe on YouTube!

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Closing Wisdom

“Do things that scare you, run towards them. Like, it will feel like the greatest accomplishment that you ever have in your entire life to accomplish, to just climb that mountain, you know?”
— Raina Greenberg [13:58]

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This summary captures the core guidance, memorable quotes, and practical takeaways from the episode. Skip the burnout—enjoy your life, even if you hate your job!

Transcript

[Guy Winch]

How is work impacting us in the workplace, but especially outside of the workplace? And what can we do to counter that and break free?

[Ashley Hess]

This podcast is a dear media production.

[Raina Greenberg]

Hi, guys. Hi, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta eat.

[Ashley Hess]

Eight year anniversary episode.

[Raina Greenberg]

Eight years.

[Ashley Hess]

Wait, why did. Why is it the ninth?

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, it's this week.

[Ashley Hess]

Is it?

[Raina Greenberg]

Actually it's the week of Valentine's Day. Always.

[Ashley Hess]

It wouldn't be the next week? The 16th?

[Raina Greenberg]

No, because we started it before the 16th. We do this every year. You do this every year?

[Ashley Hess]

You're sure it's not the 18th?

[Raina Greenberg]

No. Yes, I'm sure. I think we started the podcast. I think we started on the 12th.

[Ashley Hess]

I think you're right.

[Raina Greenberg]

February 12th. Because we go through this every year.

[Ashley Hess]

We do this every year. Don't look it up. You guys.

[Raina Greenberg]

What? You know, I didn't look up. What is.

[Ashley Hess]

What?

[Raina Greenberg]

Are you guys ready for an eight year anniversary?

[Ashley Hess]

Wood. Wood.

[Raina Greenberg]

Every year. It's wood paper.

[Ashley Hess]

No.

[Guy Winch]

What is it?

[Ashley Hess]

Let's look.

[Raina Greenberg]

I have no idea.

[Ashley Hess]

Gold.

[Raina Greenberg]

It should be gold.

[Ashley Hess]

Every year.

[Raina Greenberg]

If you give me wood. For sticking with you this long. Anyone? That's crazy.

[Ashley Hess]

Eight year anniversary gift.

[Raina Greenberg]

If you give me wood. It better be a house.

[Ashley Hess]

Bronze and pottery. Well, what do you know? I got you a bronze pot. Just kidding. Okay. Bronze and pottery. It symbolizes strength, durability and the beauty of a well crafted union.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, that's so cute.

[Ashley Hess]

Modern gifts tend towards linen and lace. I did not do that for you.

[Raina Greenberg]

I got you a box of lace. Well, we'll thank our partners and I do want to talk about it so much. So we'll just get into it. Thank you to vivrel. Skip the waitlist and get your first month for [e-mail] with code GGE and Audible. Listen to the audible. Original comedy big [e-mail] vault. Big Age series and Shopify. Test out a new idea or get serious about launching a new [e-mail] GGE.

[Ashley Hess]

And thank you to hers. Get the support that actually reflects your needs. Start your free intake@for hers.com and thank you to Rocket Money. Reach your financial goals [e-mail] GGE so.

[Raina Greenberg]

We this is our eight year anniversary. I just doing something for eight years. Crazy.

[Ashley Hess]

It really is. I mean just two girls with a microphone in a dream. New faces. One microphone, new faces. But two girls with their original faces.

[Raina Greenberg]

We had one mic. We would do it.

[Ashley Hess]

You were like a little. All I need is one mic. Literally. We were nas back in my apartment in The east village. Cuz my MacBook Air couldn't accommodate two. Literally. We bought two.

[Raina Greenberg]

Wait, that's funny. I didn't know that.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, I bought two of those giant yeti mics and I. They would not registers too. And I started doing a bunch of research and they were just like, yeah, it's too much to put in your little MacBook Air.

[Raina Greenberg]

Wait, that's funny. I don't know how we like started. People are like, how do I start a podcast? I'm like, I don't google it the.

[Ashley Hess]

Way that we did.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's how you start a podcast.

[Ashley Hess]

I had no AI back then.

[Raina Greenberg]

ChatGPT couldn't tell me.

[Ashley Hess]

Just old school Internet dialing up to figure out how to do it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, thank you guys for eight amazing years every day. I just can't believe I get to do this. And I get to perform with my best friend two times a week and on the road and it's just. What an honor.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I'm about to google AI. When do girls go eat to start? It's gonna weigh on me.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think it's the 13th.

[Ashley Hess]

You know, you guys have been along on the ride and watched our friendship blossom over the years. If you're new around here. We were newer friends when we started this eight years ago and it's just grown into something so incredible and we have our audience to thank above all. And of course everyone who comes out to the shows and listens every and supports us and the messages we get. And we just love you guys and I love you.

[Raina Greenberg]

Thanks for letting us be a part of your life.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. I love you.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. I'm very excited about this gift.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm like so excited for you to open this. Okay. So I got this for you. It is actually from one of our partners. They're not a sponsor today, but it is from Quints. I saw it and I was like, she has to have it.

[Guy Winch]

Reyna.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh my God.

[Raina Greenberg]

So it's a necklace. It matches your engagement ring. Oh my God. We had a diamond. Reyna, what the fuck?

[Ashley Hess]

I'm sorry. You said you had a gift for me and I was like, well I didn't get you a gift. And you were like, oh, it's nothing. I thought you were giving me a gag gift. You tricked me. You literally yesterday were like, it's like something stupid. I didn't say stupid. This stupid necklace. You were like.

[Raina Greenberg]

I was just like, you're what the fuck imagines.

[Ashley Hess]

You're gifted. I love this. Thank you. This is so perfect.

[Raina Greenberg]

And it's I think. I didn't even know Quinn sold stuff that was this expensive. It's the most expensive thing on the list.

[Ashley Hess]

Wait, what is happening? You have really deceived me. Yesterday. I was like, well, I didn't get you. I guess you were like, oh, it's literally nothing.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's just. I can't even believe what I'm about to give you. Also, I'd be buying you a lot of jewelry, and it's kind of weird. It reminds me of, like, who buys another woman a trip to Paris? Who brings lesbians?

[Ashley Hess]

I love this. Thank you.

[Raina Greenberg]

You're welcome. I just. I saw it and I said, oh, my God. This is, like, exactly matches it. It's just, like, gold, diamond, ruby, out.

[Ashley Hess]

Handle this. I wish I had you on record yesterday. Your full tone was, it's something so stupid. You're gonna laugh when you see you said that shit. So you're gonna laugh when you see it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Maybe laugh at how expensive it was. Why are we doing.

[Ashley Hess]

We didn't talk about this.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's not 10 years.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm gonna take you to Paris. You're. This is some bullshit. I don't even want to give you this.

[Raina Greenberg]

We weren't, like, supposed to get gifts for each other, so, you know, like, this was just an opportunity that I had to pick something out because you.

[Ashley Hess]

Have a shopping addiction.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know that? I've been cured of it.

[Ashley Hess]

I can't even believe this. We'll get this out of here. I can't believe I'm going to give you this.

[Raina Greenberg]

I feel like Shashank's going to be like, I should have bought her that.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, that's what you're doing. That's the reason you're just trying to.

[Raina Greenberg]

Always try to one off your husband, even believe this. Ashley, this is the gift bags from your wedding.

[Ashley Hess]

No.

[Raina Greenberg]

You brought me a gift bag from your wedding. You have waterboarded me with content about these gift bags. And you're like, you know what I'm gonna do is give you another one.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, my God.

[Guy Winch]

Okay.

[Ashley Hess]

Cause I was leaving the house, I was like, she probably does need another Azul candle.

[Raina Greenberg]

Listen, I do need more Cheetos.

[Ashley Hess]

This is.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't have any Cheetos at home right now.

[Ashley Hess]

Thought we were doing gag gifts. This fits the bill.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, I did need another gift bag.

[Ashley Hess]

Another rubber bag. You want me a ruby and diamond necklace? Also did Quince. Is this a custom segment?

[Raina Greenberg]

Quinn's paid for it.

[Ashley Hess]

Quince paid for it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Thank you for making the trip to be here with us. Oh, my God, we are so excited you're here.

[Ashley Hess]

I cannot wait to see these comments, how much better of a friend you are than me.

[Raina Greenberg]

I saw that necklace, and I was like, holy. It's like. It's her engagement ring. That's crazy.

[Ashley Hess]

That's so good. Thank you so much. Okay, well, happy anniversary. My gift to you is I've been hosting your tour. That is the gift.

[Raina Greenberg]

I love it.

[Ashley Hess]

For host pay.

[Raina Greenberg]

I haven't paid you at all, to be honest.

[Ashley Hess]

Club paid me a little bit.

[Raina Greenberg]

I texted you this morning, like, I'll pay you. I'm gonna pay you.

[Ashley Hess]

I am.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm gonna do it.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, well, let's talk about the tour. So I'm going to start. No, because I want to hype you as another part of your gift. We kicked off Raina's tour in Tampa and did a show in Miami. And, you know, I had seen a little bit of this, but not a lot. I haven't been to your New York shows, and so I have only seen 10 minutes tops that you did last year with me on my tour. And so to see it all come together, I mean, I am emotional talking about it. It was so hilarious. It was so brilliant. It was really touching and just so funny and different, and so you. I mean, anyone who likes you on the show is just gonna love to see this hour from you. And I just didn't. I don't wanna say I didn't know what to expect, but just to watch you get into the zone and your delivery like it's you, but it's a different version of you, to see you up on the stage alone, and it was just such a joy. And I got to sit next to your dad, and to watch him react to stuff was just the best part of the night. And Tampa was incredible, and Miami was incredible, and, you know, I'll give you the floor, but I just really wanted to share with our audience how special it was. And those people who were in Tampa and Miami have seen the show, and everyone else will see it too, and you guys should just obviously come out and get tickets.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, thank you for saying that. And I just. To have you with me was really so special. And we weren't necessarily going to kick it off in Tampa. We were going to kick it off in Madison, and I didn't know that you could be there with me. And so to, like, start it in Tampa and have you be with me for the first two shows just, like, meant a lot. And I didn't really want to talk about this. Too much before I started the tour, because I don't want people to be like, what have I bought tickets to? But, like, I had never been on a stage for more than 15 minutes by myself when I called our agent and was like, I think I have this hour I've written. I think it's really different, and I want to go on a tour with it. And to talk on stage for 15 minutes has nothing to do with talking on stage for an hour. Like, to hold people's attention, to write something, start to finish. Like, I have been terrified on a level I've never felt in my life. This was genuine terror. I have not been sleeping. I was just like, what am I about to do? Can I do this? To walk on stage in front of 400 people in Tampa by myself and talk for an hour has nothing to do with walking on stage with another person and talking for two hours in front of 4,000 people. Cause I always have you for banter. If I need to take a break, if I need to pause the energy of another person, it's like, I stop talking, it's over.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

I just. I have truly never faced anything all by myself like this. And every accomplishment I've had in eight years is hours.

[Ashley Hess]

And it's with you.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I've just. I've never done anything like this on my own. And just to share it with you is really special.

[Ashley Hess]

But I just.

[Raina Greenberg]

I feel really proud of it.

[Ashley Hess]

You should.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I felt so sick and crazy. Like, what I truly. Like, what have I done? And if I don't do this, Ashley's not gonna just do it for me. Like, sometimes I'm like, I was sitting there.

[Ashley Hess]

Pop out. I'll take it from here. Right?

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, late at night, I was sitting there, like, do I have an hour of. And like, it's better than I could have hoped for. It is longer than I could have hoped for.

[Ashley Hess]

It's so impressive.

[Raina Greenberg]

Even in three shows, I was like, I know what I want to tighten and change. And our audience has just spent money and time to just trust me and show up. And so thank you, guys. It feels like the greatest thing I've ever accomplished. I just. I'm so proud of it.

[Ashley Hess]

You should be. And it's so impressive. I mean, I don't know the average person who doesn't perform or do comedy, what they think about an hour. I think it think some people will be like, that's crazy. And some people are like, oh, it's not that much. But I just want explain, like, for a Comedian. To have an hour is. Takes years. And that's like a level you get to. You will ask someone, do you have an hour? Are you doing an hour? Are you in the road doing an hour? It's a thing, and it should take years. And I mean, again, you just sat down and you wrote and you put your head down and you practiced this around your house, and you really took it so seriously. That's not what everyone does. I mean, people cultivate these jokes over again, years, and then they put it all together and they figure it out. Everyone has a different process, but it really is so impressive to put together an hour in six months. I don't know.

[Raina Greenberg]

Thank you. And I really, like, I studied this. Everybody was laughing at me because I was like, I turned on every comedy special. Yours, Nikki Glaser, Taylor Tomlinson, Hannah Burner, our friends. I watched them. How do they move? How do they speak? What do they do with their bodies? I wrote this as a start to finish story so people could follow along. It was hard to run this because I was like, 50% of it. I couldn't run it without the other 50% of it. So I couldn't do it until I got on stage. And when you walked off the stage in Tampa, I was like, oh, no, it's go time.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm scared.

[Raina Greenberg]

But, like, we got to Miami, and I was like, I feel good. I feel like I'm in the groove. And it just. I feel really proud of it. Our agent last night asked me, like, how the shows went, and I was like, what were you thinking? I called you and I was like, I would like to do a 30 city tour. I've never been on stage more than 10 minutes. And you were like, bup, bup, bup, here's your tour. But he's.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. What were you.

[Raina Greenberg]

I was like, this is insane that you did this. Yeah, like, it's crazy that you weren't like, raina, I think you should start smaller. I think we should try five shows and see how it goes. He was like, yeah, no, say last. We got you.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, he's known us for eight years, and he has seen you perform. He knows that you're a natural, and he had faith in you. And we just. We have the best agent in the game.

[Raina Greenberg]

He said that you either were the biggest, like, faker, like, fake confidence in the world, or I knew you got it either way. Like, I knew you'd figure it out, but he was.

[Ashley Hess]

When we got on stage at Caroline's and you had never been on Stage before in your life. Not even so much as a talent show. He was like, what the fuck is about to happen?

[Raina Greenberg]

But he was probably like, ash has got this.

[Ashley Hess]

I don't know if that popped into his head at all. Just like, raina's got it. But you. You do got it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, thank you. And really, like, I say this a lot, but I just have to, like, give you your flowers. Because watching you on a stage, I'm like, man, her command of this is amazing. And you raised me. And he raised me and sent me out into the world, and I just. I can't wait for the rest of this tour. I'm so excited. I have, like, 28 more stops or something.

[Ashley Hess]

Two down, 28 more to go.

[Raina Greenberg]

Tomorrow night, I'll be in Madison, and then Wednesday night, I will be in Minneapolis for two shows. I cannot wait to be in Minneapolis and just, like, make that city laugh. There are tickets left for the second show, and I have amazing openers with me on this one. And so Ashley won't be at that one, unfortunately, but she'll be at some other ones. So catch her on tour.

[Ashley Hess]

We're planning it. It is so fun. It's so fun to open these, you know? And, you know, I feel bad for the person that has to go between us, but. Just kidding. They were amazing. People were like, brittany was amazing. Matt was amazing. But it is just so nice to see you guys and, like, watch the excitement and not have to feel nervous that I have to do an hour. It's such a treat.

[Raina Greenberg]

I used to be able to get drunk, be like, what's up, guys?

[Ashley Hess]

Leave.

[Raina Greenberg]

So anyways, that's all I'll say. Thank you guys for coming. I mean, I finally am able to say out loud, this is the most terrified I've ever felt in my entire life. Holy shit. But, like, do things that scare you, run towards them. Like, it will feel like the greatest accomplishment that you ever have in your entire life to accomplish, to just climb that mountain, you know?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. And we had our friend Alyssa's Bachelorette in Miami the same weekend. It was all in one shot, and it was just like, 50 degrees. I mean, it was shocking. And we had mentioned this on the snack, but they haven't had this low of a temp in, like, 100 years. If I've never felt like that in my life, I've been going to Miami my whole life, since I was a kid, and I've never not been warm. You leave the airport, you're like, I'm hot. It feels so good. It, like, warms you from within. Like, you're just walking around in a bathing suit and flip flops, and it was so brutal. And she really had such a positive attitude. I mean, we went on this boat. Like, I was just on the boat, like, fucking jetu holiday energy, you know, like, freezing, trying to make the best of it. And we just had some really fun girl moments where we stayed inside and we, like, watched some reality tv and we, you know, had fun dinners and things like that. But I just. I felt bad for her, but she really kept her spirits up, and I think she had a great time. She just wanted to, like, be with her girls and. But that was something else. I've never experienced that in Miami. We were, like, in Sweatsheva.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, she had a great attitude about it. I don't know how I would feel if I. Her and her sister Jackie, they just planned so much, and everything was outdoors and to, like, bring everybody down there. There was girls that were pregnant. They got on flights and went down there. And to have most of the stuff you planned be, like, not outdoors in Miami, like, some people would have had a real meltdown about that. And it is, like, a testament to her to be like, okay, we have to do plan B. And, like, I can get my head around plan B and still be happy.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. And she kind of had it in her head already. I mean, she checked the weather, but I just, you know, we love her, and we're so excited for the wedding. But it was really funny because there was talk about going to the club. Like, we went to dinner at this place called Mila. It's a spot, for sure. We were talking about going to the club afterwards, and I was like, we're not going to the club. And I just kept quoting that line and knocked up where Craig Robinson is like, you old. She pregnant. Because there's two pregnant women.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, we're.

[Ashley Hess]

What we're going to show up to 11, just pregnant, pregnant, old. Like, listen, I can party at the club, and we look great, But I just kept thinking that, like, you can't come here tonight. It's like, you're pregnant, she old.

[Raina Greenberg]

No. I was like, we are team go home or team get in bed. That's what I'm trying to do. And I was. Honestly, I love a group that just leans into going home.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, yeah. I mean, we did do a club night for my third bachelorette, but the. The other nights, actually, we got a little wild on all of them, but it just. It was nice. And we played that game Fishbowl, which I'm sure you guys know, but we played on New Year's Eve and we played it again. It's like my favorite game.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's my favorite. I had never heard of it until the summer when I played at Megan's house.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, so basically everyone that's playing writes down a person, place, or thing. People are really funny. Like, deep cut. Celebrities are funny. But it can be anything. It can be a sandwich. It can be what, Shashank on New Year's Eve, Nepal.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, I think people write the clues sometimes before they understand what the game is. Because, like, I think celebrities and famous figures, fictional or non fiction, is the easiest way.

[Ashley Hess]

100. So you throw all these things into a fishbowl and then you have two teams and your team has to guess what it is. And the first round is you can describe it however you want without saying it. The second round is you get one word. The third round is you have to act it out. And then a fourth round that some people play, some people don't is you have to make a sound. Like just a sound. And the thing is, is that you know what's in the bowl after the first round. So you really need to pay attention. But you still. It's still hard to figure out with one word and acting it out charade style. It is so fun. And Rain and I being on the same team is a real cheat code. Like New Year's Eve, people are like, oh, isn't fair. They are locked in. They can read each other's minds. And so when we pick teams at the Bachelorette, I was like, right after we in the same team and everyone just thought it was like a cutesy thing. And I'm like, no, it's a cheat code.

[Raina Greenberg]

Thanks. How we're going to win.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

So fun.

[Ashley Hess]

So fun.

[Raina Greenberg]

And like, you can play a bunch of rounds and everything. I can't believe, like, you're usually so drunk by the time you get to the sound round. And people are good at it. Yeah. It's shocking.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. And it's just funny. Like, I don't know. I made mine, like a little edgy. Like, we played a second round with just people and I did Stephen Hawking.

[Raina Greenberg]

Actually acting out Stephen Hawking.

[Ashley Hess]

I was like, oh, my God, Fuck Stephen Hawking. It was an Epstein Island. I don't care.

[Raina Greenberg]

Also, that was the day that the Daniel Bernstein news dropped and three people put Daniel Bernstein in the fish. We kept picking out Daniel Bernstein.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I know. And then I was like, we need to replace The Daniel Bernstein. And I put in Erica Kirk.

[Raina Greenberg]

Somebody swung in on a stripper pole.

[Ashley Hess]

Someone popped up from underneath the floor with sparklers, pretending to mourn their husband playing Nicki Minaj. Yeah. So anyway, that was. That was really fun. And then we did just want to give an update from last Monday's episode about the wrong number texts. Raina was getting these texts. We figured out that it was probably from a dad, and it was about his kid, and it was someone you went on a date with, what, forever ago. And he was texting. You guys can go back and listen. But he was texting. Like, it sounded like it was about his son's school or his son's daycare.

[Raina Greenberg]

But at the beginning, text just said. He was just like, hey, we're running late. Hey, we're running late. I just. I thought this was a work thing.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

So I just was like, I don't care about this. And he kept texting. But then after five unanswered texts, you were like, you got to text him. So I said, hey, I think you have the wrong number. And he said, it's my. My son's, like, caretaker is named Raina also. And he must have swapped the last names by accident or something. I mean, it is so like a man, though, to just keep sending text messages that are unresponded to and never think, like, maybe I got the wrong place.

[Ashley Hess]

And a lot of people are commenting on the stores that were texting me. They were kind of like, you're both right. Like, it's. It is personal, but it is automated.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't know.

[Ashley Hess]

Just people had a lot to say.

[Raina Greenberg]

The one you sent that you read.

[Ashley Hess]

Me was not automated.

[Raina Greenberg]

The girl talked to you, said, like, good luck with your. No, I mean, I get texts from stores all the time. They're clearly. They say, hey, Raina. But, like, they're automated.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. So it's like, I don't know, just be like that.

[Raina Greenberg]

It just be like that. A couple people also messaged me that they were teachers and that there's, like, apps that people text 2, and it looks like a real phone number. It's like a school automated thing. But, yeah, this guy just got his nanny and me mixed up. And, I mean, I want to give a man flowers for doing anything with his kid, you know, like, good for him.

[Ashley Hess]

And.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, it's just like a man to be like, sure, I'll just let it fly. I'll just keep texting into the ether.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, well, we have a great episode today with Guy Winch. We Love him. He's back for his Three Pete, right? Just like Nedra was last week. So these are some of our absolute faves and a really impactful episode. We think you guys are going to love it. But before we get into it with him, I just want to talk about health a little bit. You're always on a health journey, so let's have a real talk about our health. This is not a hot take, but it is the number one thing I value in my life. You know, if I'm not healthy, I can't do anything this morning.

[Raina Greenberg]

Buzz, buzz.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm healthy. I'm healthy. No, but I can't excel at work. I have my personal relationships, every area of my life. It really. If I'm sick or if I'm in pain or I'm just feeling off, it is hell for me. I know. So we're going to talk about hers, but I'm going to talk about my personal experience recently. So I went to the doctor recently, and I had, like, a laundry list of stuff, like, to talk to her about. As you age, it's just like, my butt, my bo.

[Raina Greenberg]

You led with butt, you walk in with butt. I'm always having issues back there, Buffy.

[Ashley Hess]

And then yesterday, I went back, I got blood work because I had a little bit of issue with my thyroid, but they thought it was just related to the supplements that I take, because biotin can send your thyroid out of whack. So my thyroid is normal. But I got blood work yesterday after we got Botox, I was like, I've been poked and prodded all day. I trained in the morning so I could go in the afternoon and get more needles. And I got it all back and everything. Like, looks pretty good. But I just think about this all the time. Like, going to the doctor is not always so easy. And I had a situation where I went to a dermatologist and I diagnosed myself. Like, remember, I was in there and I was, like, waiting for her to say the thing. And then finally I was like, maybe it's this. And she was like, oh, yeah, I do think it's that. And you had a nightmare situation recently?

[Raina Greenberg]

No, I just. I. Because I am getting older also. Like, you should have, like, a full panel of tests. You should have blood work. You should check your thyroid, like you said. Ultrasounds, like, anything. Mammograms, like, everything that you need done as you get older. Check everything. And I went thinking I'd be there for, like, I don't know. I budgeted, like, an hour. I was there for, like, Two and a half hours. I was in the waiting room forever. And I'm like so mad by the time I got in there. And like, I don't want to take it out on anybody. It's like, nobody's fault. I know people are like working hard, but like, to get your health checked and to like spend this time feeling like I'm being kind of taken advantage of or ignored was like, so disappointing. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

And we really deal with so much as women, especially as we age, like you said. I mean, like every year when I go in for an exam, it's a longer list of stuff we need to talk about. I mean, perimenopause, of course, we're coming up on and menopause, changes in our body, our energy levels, anxiety, acne, the list goes on and on. I mean, even looking at my panel from all the blood work I got done, I was like, interested in what all these things mean and how they do affect your energy day to day and all the different aspects, aspects of your life. And these things have historically not always been at the forefront of the conversation. So sometimes it feels like you really have to take your health into your own hands. And you know, we have all the respect in the world for everybody in the medical field, but sometimes it feels like you're not getting the answers that you need or you're being told that everything's fine and it's not. You have to go to your second opinion and you really have to kind of take control. And so we do feel like it is improving in terms of women's health being more at the forefront of conversation, which is awesome. And hers is in the conversation with their women first approach. We are so excited to partner with hers. They are a positive force out to provide access to care women deserve by addressing key tension points of an outdated health care system. So hers is an online health and wellness company where you can get a clear picture of your health with convenient access to in depth holistic lab testing. And then if prescribed, you'll have access to a not one size fits all treatment plan for your needs that go beyond medicine with lifestyle tips for better outcomes. So you're gonna do the intake and then if prescribed again, they're just gonna walk you through everything that's gonna really help you feel back to normal. Whatever you have going on in your body with your health, it is convenient, 100% online care whenever you need it and ongoing support for anything you may be going through. Like we mentioned, changes in your body, energy levels, perimenopause, menopause your skin and more. So you can start a simple online consultation with a provider to see if you're eligible. Check out for forhers.com to learn more. That is f o r h e r s.com forhers.com okay, and I'm going.

[Raina Greenberg]

To turn you guys onto a company that I've known about for a long time. It's called Vivrel, and if you don't know it yet, it's a members only club where you can borrow designer bags, jewelry, watches, and even diamonds. So think like a rotating dream closet that you don't have to commit to. And the best part is that there's no return dates, so you keep a piece as long as you want. You can swap them monthly if you're ready for something new. And if you you fall in love with something, you can buy it for less than anywhere else. So basically think like Valentine's Day. If you're just like, I want to wear something so stunning over the top. Go to their site. Maybe you want to borrow a bag or shoes. There's just so many options on there. The classic tier is 1 39amonth, and it's by far the most popular. So it honestly makes sense because it's the best value that you get, which is wild. And they're consistently refreshing the inventory. So every time you go on there, you'll see new things. They add millions of dollars of new pieces every week, week. And it's like walking to this, like, designer boutique. The stuff on there is insane. They Prada, Fendi, Saint Laurent, Dior. Like, huge, huge, expensive designers. And you just pick it and it shows up like, it's so surreal, really, so incredible.

[Ashley Hess]

Like, sometimes it's like, how'd she get that right? Vivrel. Maybe she's born with it. Maybe it's Vivre.

[Raina Greenberg]

And they just gave us an amazing offer which expires at the end of the month. So if you have been curious or wanting to sign up for it, here is your sign. Use our referral code GGE to get your first month of membership complete completely for free. This is the time to join now. You're gonna go to vivrel.com and apply for a membership today using the referral code GGE for your first month of membership, free. The code will also allow you to skip the wait list from Verel. So that's V I V R E L L e dot com. Use code GGE for your first month for free.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, let's get into it.

[Raina Greenberg]

All right, guys, we are very excited to welcome back a guest to the show today. He's an author and an internationally renowned psychologist whose viral TED talks have garnered over 3,35 million views. He advises startups in the mental health space. He's worked with the US and UK governments and he has created emotional health programs for Fortune 500 companies. His work has been featured literally everywhere. New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Time, tons of major outlets. He is the co host of the ambienominated Dear Therapist podcast with three time former guest Lori Gottlieb. His new book, Mind Over Grind is a modern deep dive into burnout, emotional cost of work and work life boundaries. Please welcome back to the show, Guy Winch.

[Guy Winch]

Thank you for having me. It's great to be back.

[Ashley Hess]

We love it. Third time.

[Raina Greenberg]

Third time.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, we don't do that a lot. We don't do three peats a lot. So welcome back.

[Guy Winch]

Neither do I, you know, so the feeling's mutual.

[Ashley Hess]

Look at that. What an elite club.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. I mean, less than 10 people, less than five people probably.

[Ashley Hess]

So the first time we had you.

[Raina Greenberg]

On heartbreak and rejection, we talked a lot about that.

[Guy Winch]

I always write about fun things.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

I like both of them a lot. Rejection is really like something that just, it applies to everybody. And then how to complain Better was an amazing topic.

[Ashley Hess]

The complaint sandwich. I remember like all those fun takeaways.

[Raina Greenberg]

Changing the topic. So this is a real departure from dating. Relationship stuff you've talked about before. You're talking about like workplace and not just workplace dynamics, but how to function better in the workplace, mental health. So why the pivot?

[Guy Winch]

Well, because work has really taken over our lives. And I would just see it in the people, with the people I'm working with, that work has kind of invaded so many aspects of their lives, some of which they realize, many of which they didn't. And then I started looking at the research and the research was slightly alarming because there are all these studies that show all these aspects of our personality that get amputated because of our devotion to work or because we have a toxic workplace or because we're just very, very driven. So I wanted to like pull that all together and see how is work impacting us in the workplace, but especially outside of the workplace. And what can we do to counter that and break free.

[Ashley Hess]

I love this. And we talk about this. We have a friend who, her fiance is doing his residency and just the level of stress. I remember one time we were talking to her, like, how do you not absorb his stress? And he's a wonderful partner. And I Think about this with my husband, like he's stressed or down about work and he goes there every day, you know, like what you do for most of your life, how can it not impact your home life, partner, friendships?

[Guy Winch]

Right. Well, first of all, moods are contagious to begin with. And so when somebody comes back, even if they're trying very hard not to show leaks, it's clear.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Guy Winch]

We also know that there's studies that show that when one partner is really chronically stressed, the other partner will start developing symptoms of burnout. That's how much that transfer happens. And so it's very, very difficult. And unless people know how to leave it at the doorstep or leave it in the office, as it were, then it's going to leak and it's going to impact them, their families, their kids, all of it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Even if you have a pretty stress free job, to come home to a person that's stressed out, you're already bringing your own stress and of the relationship. And then to come home to a person that's unhappy, hates the way they spent their day, isn't happy with their salary or what they're doing all day long, how could it not deeply impact you?

[Guy Winch]

You know, we get very preoccupied with work because this is where we spend the majority of our time. You know, our unconscious mind thinks work is the most important thing to us because it just looks factually. Our unconscious mind is kind of primitive. It goes, that's where you spend most of your time. That's what pays the bills and that's what gives you the security, the food, all of those things. That must be the most important thing. So when you come home, you're really preoccupied with work. And then when your kid is running to you or when your partner comes up to give you a hug, it feels like an intrusion. It feels like, ah, I'm not ready for that yet. And you freeze up or you tense up and they can feel it and it does a number, you know, and it creates conflict in the home. And, and so there are all these things that happen. And again, some of us are aware of some of it, but we're really not aware of all of it.

[Raina Greenberg]

I remember like as a kid, my mom was a single parent. She got us up in the morning, drove us to school, worked all day long, came home, I'd immediately cook dinner and do homework with us and she wouldn't let us come down to the kitchen. It was like a little, it wasn't a great environment. She was like, I want to be here, I want to cook. I want to be left alone. And as a child, it was really upsetting to me because I wanted to hang with my mom. But now as an adult, I understand how she felt. Can I just have 10 minutes to myself? But it permeated our nights, our evenings, everything, all the time.

[Guy Winch]

That's right. Kids don't understand it.

[Ashley Hess]

Kids. I know. I think about that, like, what kid doesn't have that memory of dad coming home? Especially if, like a finance dad, you know, that comes stress, or working all the time, they're barely home. And I brought up my husband. I want to say too, I am stressed, and he deals with it really well. But I've said this before, it impacts your sex life. I'm too stressed to have sex.

[Guy Winch]

You know, there's research about that too, actually, that it doesn't just impact your sex life, it impacts your sex drive and it impacts the sex drive of the partner because again, it's not very appetizing when someone's a ball of stress. It doesn't turn you on either, and you don't want to intrude in that way. And so it really impacts so many areas of our lives. And again, when you say it, yeah, it makes sense. But people don't understand the comprehensiveness of how badly this is impacting them and their quality of life and their relationships.

[Raina Greenberg]

So I'm curious, like in your research and interviewing people about today's work culture, because Ashley and I both had jobs for a long time, but we've almost, for a decade, worked for ourselves. We've been the bosses, we've been entrepreneurs. And I worked at Groupon and Amazon, huge companies. But it's been very. It's been a long time since we weren't the boss and in charge of our own schedules and things like that. So what do you see in today's current work culture that people are upset about, stressed out about?

[Ashley Hess]

Or is it everything?

[Guy Winch]

Look, I think what we see is that work stress and burnout keep going up and peaking over the past five years. And that's interesting because that's even as the awareness of it has been going up too. And people's awareness of the importance of work life balance has been going up. So when people are more aware of it and trying to do more about it, how come it's still peaking? Because the work culture has gotten really harsh. You know, there's the phenomenon of job hugging right now where people are just staying in the job they have because, you know, it's just too difficult to find another one. And who knows if that one's going to be any better. Things are very, very difficult in the workplace right now, at all levels, really.

[Raina Greenberg]

Have you seen since COVID people aren't going to the office as much? And I really thrived in an environment where I had to be at work. I really liked it, the social aspect of it. I like that I had somebody to take a walk with and go to lunch with. And after work I did like happy hours. I really enjoyed that. Have you seen like not going to work impacting people positively or negatively?

[Guy Winch]

Well, first of all, there is a big return to office kind of shift that's happening in a big, in a lot of big companies and a lot of corporations that they're trying to get people back into the office. But the problem with erasing the boundary between work and home is that it erased the boundary between work and home. And so, you know, I think before the pandemic, somebody would have thought twice about emailing their employee at 10 o' clock at night. And I don't think they're thinking twice about it because especially if they're working from home, well, they're, you know, the lines are blurred. It's where they work. So and so I think those boundaries have become even more fluid and even our expectation of it, like, well, if I work from home, it's fair. No, it's not. And the research is that we do about eight hours on average of emails after hours a week. That's an extra day. An extra day of work. Unpaid. Right. Or unpaid in terms of overtime because of how much that's happening.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, and when you say leave it at the door, there is no leaving it at the door when you're home, inside the door. So because I think of you would work and maybe, I mean, a shitty commute sucks, but at least there's a time between work and home to leave it or let it go, let the stuff go when you're in the home, when's the work day over? Like, how do you separate it between then and whatever it is you're doing, your plans that night, your partner gets home, that type of thing.

[Guy Winch]

You know, it's interesting, when I give talks to companies, I always ask the audience, tell me what time your workday ends. And they always give me a time. It's 7 o', clock, it's 6 o', clock, it's 8 o'. Clock. And that is not when your workday ends. Whether you're working from home or not, your workday ends when you stop thinking about work. And for a lot of people that extends the work day a lot because either they're doing emails or they're just preoccupied and ruminating about work. So they are thinking about work sometimes all evening, all night. And that is how long your workday is. And what that does is you are in fight or flight. Your body is activated when you are at work because of the tension, because of the difficult hostility of the current workplace. Like 90 something percent of people, you know, encounter incivility, which sounds like a mild thing, but when someone's really rude to you, you're gonna ruminate about that when you get home. I can't believe she said that. I can't believe he did that. And so your work day just keeps going on and on. Your body and your mind don't have an opportunity to set and reset, to calm down. So you're in like fight or flight all the time. And that's the chronicity of the stress that's leading to burnout.

[Raina Greenberg]

We start pretty early, Ashley and I both do. And now she gets up really early. So she's up in the mornings with me, but we start pretty early. But like, I try to draw the line at a certain hour because I know I'm not gonna be productive after that time. I know it's actually just better for other people if I just get up at 6:00am and do it instead of, you know, 6:00pm or 7:00pm but when other people message us at night and they need something from us, I and she both feel like somebody. Other people are working, so we should acknowledge them and be present for them. And there's that like internalized pressure to be like other people are doing this. I should too.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, I don't have a lot of hard boundaries with work because I understand the balance of running the company, being able to live my life however I want it. And so that kind of comes with the territory that I'm kind of always on. But I don't know, I still know how to take a break, but I've learned to accept that the benefits outweigh the negatives in terms of being the boss, I guess. So I don't know.

[Guy Winch]

But when you're responding at night, yeah, you're activated again. I know at work again, you're not doing whatever you should be doing. I know at night, in terms of relaxing, having couple time, you know, doing whatever the thing.

[Ashley Hess]

I know.

[Guy Winch]

And so, and I try very much since, especially since doing this research and realizing, yikes, I've been guilty. Two, I will schedule the emails. You know, I won't send it to, to somebody after six or seven o' clock because I feel that like then they'll feel compelled to respond. And here I am being hypocritical because I'm saying that's not okay. So I'll just schedule them. And I'm much more productive in the morning too, so I will respond to all of them in the morning.

[Raina Greenberg]

I guess Ashley and I just always want to tread lightly and acknowledge that like, you know, we're entrepreneurs and there's, you know, trade offs that come with that.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

But we try to not. We don't hold our employees to that responsibility.

[Ashley Hess]

Exactly. And I'm with you. I just like, I look at scheduling the emails, you know, But I want.

[Guy Winch]

To say entrepreneurs are really at risk because of that kind of thinking.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Guy Winch]

Because they feel like, well, we get to control our own schedules. I'm also self employed. Right. So I get to control my own schedule. So surely I don't have to be, you know, difficult about it. I can respond to the email or not, but that's the slippery slope because then I find that like I'm checking my phone, I'm not present in whatever I'm doing. I'm actually, ooh. And that email was actually quite important. Now there's very little that couldn't wait till the morning. I mean, it's truly very, very few things, if any, that couldn't wait till the morning. But the entrepreneurial mindset is must do all the time. And entrepreneurs are really at risk for overworking, for burnout, and for really ruining their quality of life unnecessarily because they feel, well, I have the freedom. But like, then, yes, then use it in a good way.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. I'm not a role model, I want to say in terms of, I think a lot of things you could look up to me, but work, life, balance is probably not one.

[Raina Greenberg]

Ashley doesn't have an off switch. And it's fascinating to me. I mean, she will send fully coherent. I mean before, before she moved in with her husband, I mean she would, I would wake up every morning to like full screens of text messages, but like at midnight, stuff she was thinking about and creative ideas never turns off. And like last night also we were gonna go to, we had 7:30 dinner plans and like I was texting her up until the minute she picked me up about this podcast we were gonna go on. We didn't need to answer it that, that minute. And we talked about work to the minute we walked in the door of the restaurant.

[Ashley Hess]

But then I sometimes Am like, I can't help who I am. My head hits the pillow at night and I think of all these creative ideas. It is wild. And I like the articles that come out that are like, night people just embrace, you know, like, I can't accept, explain it. I am laying in bed and like, the jokes come to me. I have to put them in my notes. I don't know, my brain is trying to.

[Guy Winch]

So you're a night, you're a morning, and you're a night. So then how are your mornings? Are your mornings more restful? Do you at least take a slow start to the day or do you jump in right away?

[Ashley Hess]

I have a morning routine. I really do try to get up and not immediately fire up my brain with emails and Instagram and have my coffee and do.

[Guy Winch]

Okay, so you do get a break as long as you get it somewhere.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I definitely.

[Guy Winch]

For some people it's the morning. For some people it's the evening.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, Yeah. I like to take that seriously. And I think, you know, I'm getting better about saying, I need this time. Don't bother me. You are.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, you really, you've changed a lot.

[Ashley Hess]

This isn't about me. I brought up work life balance, and we have this on our outline. Is it a myth which I want to dive into.

[Guy Winch]

I believe that the work life balance starts in your head, not in. Because people tend to think of it like, I'm going to add an hour of yoga. And I'm like, that's okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

But were you stressed at yoga?

[Guy Winch]

But yeah. Are you really focused? I mean, hopefully if you're doing yoga, you can actually focus on the poses or not, but. But it starts in your head. It starts with, where is the clarity? Where does work end and you begin? I sometimes give this thought experiment to people. If your work disappeared tomorrow, what would be left? How much of you is left and what would that you be about? And for a lot of people, they'd be like, I don't, I don't. No. But it's like, then why aren't you giving oxygen to some other parts of your personality, to your experience, to life that's not encompassed by work. Now, in your case specifically, you bring a lot of your personality and a lot of those things to your work. So you're not like, you know, but people who work in corporate offices, you know, they. They don't get to be funny. They don't get to be silly, they don't get to be goofy. They don't get to bring a lot of their personality you can do anything.

[Raina Greenberg]

You want to do. That's just you do what other people want you to do, right?

[Guy Winch]

But it's like, where do you bring in the parts of yourself that you used to have, that used to nourish you, that are meaningful parts of who you are when you can't express them during the day and then you're too fatigued at night? And that's the part about amputating these parts of ourselves, because we become very narrow people.

[Raina Greenberg]

So, like, people millennials like Ashley and I were raised hustle culture is the thing, and girl bossing is the thing.

[Ashley Hess]

And sleep when you're dead is a whole thing.

[Raina Greenberg]

And your job is what defines you. And, and so much of that I do, I love and I'm really proud of. But like, that is exactly how we were built. And so how do you suddenly tell somebody, don't be like that.

[Guy Winch]

It's not, don't be like that. It's not your job defines you, but what else defines you? Can there be aspects that are not about the job? And maybe for some people it's like, no, I get to express all of myself in my work, and that's okay. But for a lot of people, I say to them, well, what were you like before you got into the career? What did you enjoy doing in college? What were you, you know, people who knew you before this, what would they say about you that we don't see because of where work has taken you now? And not just work, but, you know, parenting obligations and all those things that really kind of take up all the space of the day and all the oxygen that you have. And for some people, they don't even realize what they miss. They just got used to being so narrow and going from this to this to this to this. And then what is life about really? Like, what are you going to remember? And if, if your job is very meaningful and very satisfying, that's great. But for a lot of people, it's just work, work, work. But what are you remembering if you, you know, the end of the year comes and you do a review of the year, what are the moments that stood out for you? And are they all about work? What about outside of work? And what made them special? And it's usually relationships, it's usually experiences, it's usually self discovery, something meaningful. And some of that can happen at work, but a lot of it doesn't.

[Raina Greenberg]

I like this exercise of, like, if work went away, what would be left? Or like, what did you used to enjoy? Because, like, if you said that to me, a lot of it would be cooking. And, like, Ashley is very good. You. You and your husband, like, spend like an hour, an hour and a half, like, cooking dinner. I don't hear from you. You really do. You put. I know when you're doing that because you put the phone down.

[Guy Winch]

Like, that's great.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's important to, like. Like, pull the car into a parking spot and just be like, I'm gonna be here for a little bit and be present. And I think if we strip this all away, like, I would. I just. I love cooking. It's so important to me. Going out to eat, restaurants, traveling, like, that's the stuff that, like, enriches my life. That's what would be there.

[Ashley Hess]

I think of someone who works for us who's watching this now. So I hope I don't misspeak on her. And she lives in New York, so she works from home. And she expressed us she was missing a little bit of community with not going into an office and collaborating with other people and just being home alone. And I think she was maybe wanting a more creative outlet, too, in different ways. And now she is taking up some art classes, and I think it is fulfilling her. I feel as if we were talking about this while she's editing this. But that really puts her around people and fulfills her in that way, too. And I just love to hear that from her, that she kind of thought of, what am I maybe missing in the workday that I can. That I like my job, I want to keep my job. We're so lucky to have her, but what else can I do in my life?

[Guy Winch]

That is such a key thing, though, that she did, which most people don't do. She actually paused to ask the question, what is missing for me? Okay, so more socializing, more this is missing for me. And then how can I address those needs? So for her, it's taking that class, being around people, doing something creative. And this is part of what I'm saying, like, pause to ask the questions. Don't be on autopilot all the time. And when we're stressed out, our default is the autopilot. And we're going to fly into a cliff because, you know, because, you know, we're not thinking. We're just getting from one task to the other to the other to the other.

[Raina Greenberg]

So, like, you've. We talked a lot about, like, you know, how work affects you. And the book also talks a lot about how it hijacks, like, your mental health and your morality sometimes and your personal Relationships. But I guess before we move on to how to manage this, maybe we should ask you, like, how do you decide to stay in your job or make a change? And why do you not talk in the book about how to negotiate at your current job? Like, boundaries and talk to your. You have, like, a lot of, like, good stuff, especially in the intro about, like, why that's not what this book is about.

[Guy Winch]

Primarily because in the current workplace, which is a very challenging one, there are companies and there are many of them in which if you start pushing back about these things, you're going to get listed on the next round of cuts or layoffs. And I've seen it happen time and again where somebody opened their mouth and it's like, well, great, we have cuts coming. Now we know who to put.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yep, I felt like an Amazon. I didn't drink the Kool Aid. I wasn't like, gonna go along with everybody, and I was punished for it. So anyway, so.

[Guy Winch]

And look, that's not all companies totally. But no, because I can't tell and because some people often can't tell until they try and then they find out. I didn't want to go there because I didn't want to set people up. So I'm not saying to you, this is how to negotiate. This is how to do that. There are other books that do that. I'm not doing that. But in terms of when to leave, if you follow the advice in the book and you're making adjustments, it should lower your stress, it should enrich your life outside of work, and it should create more work life balance. So do those things first. But if despite all of that, you're just unhappy, you're miserable, things aren't changing, then you really should consider leaving now, again, don't leave until you've gotten a new job. People make that mistake all the time. Oh, I quit. And then it's like, oh, that's not good. You're more hireable when you're in a job already. It's less depressing to interview for jobs when you're in a job already. But, you know, for some people, it's just so bad that they really should consider doing something else, because, again, this is where you spend most of your life. So your quality of life is being severely impacted.

[Ashley Hess]

And the incivility you mentioned and disrespect that just. I think it starts to rewire who you are if you feel genuinely disrespected every day at work. To me, it's a different level of just being overworked. Or stressed. It's. I mean, even sometimes I'll be in a restaurant or wherever, and the way someone talks to a server, I'm like, how the. And you. They just have to take it, you know, like, I just am like all day to deal with. That's a safe, small example. And, you know, you're dealing with a customer, not your boss. I mean, there's so many different levels of mistreatment, but it really. I think it starts to break you.

[Guy Winch]

Yeah, there's. There's bullying. Yeah, there's harassment. And you know, for women, there's a lot of these aggressions that, you know, being talked over, being, you know, like, every time they express something that would. A man would get applause for, they get penalized for it. There's research that shows, for example, they did a study in which they had people read an assessment of two workers. One of them completed all the assignment well in the allotted time, and the other worked overtime for it. Who would they consider more competent? Well, the person who worked overtime because they showed more dedication, but they needed more time.

[Ashley Hess]

I would pick the person who got it to hire.

[Guy Winch]

And when it's women, then the woman, you know, the woman who did it on time and competently and effectively and efficiently also was judged as less competent and able than the men who took longer to do the same tasks because she's lazy.

[Raina Greenberg]

Cause she got it done quicker.

[Guy Winch]

The task was completed correctly. In other words.

[Ashley Hess]

I don't even understand it. I'd be like, you're slow, you're not hired.

[Guy Winch]

But that's the judgment. You know, there's biases against women. There's biases against all kinds of people in the workplace. There's. And they leak out in all these insidious ways. And you're dealing with it on a daily basis. And so that's a stressor in and of itself. You have to have your defenses up all the time to deal with this rude boss and this one who's doing this to you in a meeting when you're talking, rather than, you know, quite, you know, that kind of these gestures of dismissiveness and rudeness and the hostility. There are a lot of companies, for example, that. In which many. In which they have mergers, right. Or take. And now you have two departments doing the same thing. And one of them is going to survive. But until they decide who they have to work together, those meetings are horrific. And they happen. And that's the daily life now for the next six months or whatever, people are dealing with terrible hostilities and terrible tensions. All day. It's a true battlefield.

[Raina Greenberg]

I had a corporate job and I remember like everyone would sit in the same like pit together and like, who, Whoever left first, I left first always. And it was, look, I was done. I was done working. I got everything done. But it was like, who can stay the longest? Who can be the most miserable? Who can stay until 8pm on a Tuesday? And I was just like, I was looked down upon, but I was like, I'm done though.

[Ashley Hess]

That is so funny. Like, when I would leave work, I'd be like, bye, losers. I have plans. What are you guys, it's dark out.

[Raina Greenberg]

Get out of here.

[Guy Winch]

Yes, but then it costs you. I mean, that's what the research people are not employing good judgment. Saying like, well, actually she got her work done. Good for her. They're like, well, she's not showing the dedication.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, that's how I was. I got looked at.

[Ashley Hess]

I felt like that in one of the few like full time, normal type jobs I had where I was like, I'm really good at this. I get my work done quickly and my reward is more work. I should be able to go home. And that's how we treat our employees. Like, if you're done, go fuck off and go to the park. You know, not let me figure out what else I can give you to do. You know, I think we trust people to manage their workload and their deadlines and we have a great team. But I never understood that, like, I'm done. Can I just take a. Take a little time off? Because I'm so good at this. And instead it's like, no, do more.

[Raina Greenberg]

The tension in the room when I would leave first, I could feel it. It was uncomfortable. I was not. No one liked me because of it, but I was like, I don't need to be here any longer. None of you also all you were just on social media or whatever you're doing to pretend you're working. Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, so you're gonna stay at your job, let's say. And it's not a need to get out of there immediately. Maybe it's fine. You know, I think a lot of people's job is fine and a lot of people realize it's not perfect. I'm stressed here and there, but it could be worse. And it's fine. I'm not being mistreated, but I'm still bringing it home. I'm still stressed and I don't want to be. So what are some of the techniques and self talk?

[Guy Winch]

So first of all, I believe you should have a ritual to transition from work to home. And by transition, I mean your brain needs to transition, because, again, you need to come off the high alert of your fight or flight response that you're in during the workday. And the ritual. And I say ritual because rituals tend to have deeper meaning, and our brain really responds to them. And so if you have a commute, so it can involve music, it can involve listening to certain playlists or podcasts, for example, fun podcasts that make you smile and laugh even as you learn things. But the more senses you involved, the deeper the ritual resonates. So change your lighting when you get home. Change your clothes. We're very sensitive to the clothing we wear. You know, there's studies, for example, that looked at. In one study, they had people do a very boring task, and half the people were in a very cold room, and half the people were in a regular room. And in the cold room, there was a lab coat. And they said to them, oh, if you're chilly, put on the lab coat. And they made the room very chilly on purpose. And so they had the same task. But when people put on the lab coat, they were much more accurate and much more detailed, focused, because it made them think like they're scientists. So the clothing we wear really impacts us. Like the power suits, the this, that it really has an impact. So have clothing that you wear for work and have different clothing, even if it's both T shirts that you wear when you finish work, that you associate with not working, and then sense have, you know, certain candles, certain scents, certain, you know, like, aromatherapies, whatever. The thing is, the more senses you can involve in this ritual, you will train your brain to the minute you start to know, oh, we're coming down now. We're switching out of.

[Ashley Hess]

Don't work after the ritual.

[Guy Winch]

Yeah, well, try not to. When you have emails to do, which you will, you have to frame them, because stress is very psychological. It depends on our framing of it. So if you think about emails as work kind of intruding or still working, then you're still at work. You have to think of it as defining what the task for the evening is. And the task for the evening might be veg out and watch a movie, but then what the emails are, are an intermission. You are taking a break from the task of life. So you're framing it as a break rather than as work, a continuation of work. And again, that framing in your head allows you to then disengage afterwards and get back into relaxed mode.

[Raina Greenberg]

I like this ritual idea. I do it every day. I call my restorative walk. I do it around 4 o' clock every day. I actually change before I do it every day. I put sweatpants on, I take off my jeans if I'm wearing jeans.

[Guy Winch]

See, that's exactly right.

[Raina Greenberg]

I put in something comfortable and I walk around Venice. I take an hour, I go to the beach if it's light out. I feel like a different person when I get home. It's one hour.

[Ashley Hess]

But it really is the transition. I feel like the same way when I do my walk. And it's just like when I get them from the walk, I'm. I'm done. I mean, I should be, you know, it's like that's the way I think about it. It's the same with my workout, whatever it is, because then I shower. So it's like I do the thing, I shower, I get into my clothes for the evening if I plans or if I'm just vegging out. And like that really is the transition. I think that we both do it as well as we can for people who work for themselves.

[Guy Winch]

Yes. You are signaling your brain that I'm done with this part of the day and I'm starting that part of the day, even if it still involves some work. Showers are great. They're very, very immersive. So they're a great way to kind of shift your mindset. But those rituals are really useful.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think that's really helpful. And I do regenerate after that. I am able to like tuck back into emails a little bit for the night. And it doesn't feel as like important, I guess, or stressful. So I love this. I love the idea of changing.

[Ashley Hess]

Always change. Oh my gosh. To be like on the couch in your work clothes. I had a friend that would do that. She would be. I would, she'd be like, come over, let's like watch something. She would be like in her work clothes. Like, you haven't changed. It's like 8 o'. Clock. You're wearing like slat hard pants. Like, this is crazy. So I always thought she was a serial killer, but weird behavior.

[Raina Greenberg]

So anything else? Like, end of the day, how do we separate?

[Guy Winch]

Yes, you, you again. The day ends, the workday ends when you stop thinking about work. So you really have to detach from work again. Even if you have to dip in once in a while. You want to feel that you're really detached and you want to label what you're doing even if it's nothing as your personal time. Now, if you're doing something, then it's dinner with friends. And our brain takes one thing very stupidly seriously. That is calendars. So rather than a blank space in the evening, write personal time, Have a different color for it, or write whatever the plans are, because then you're telling your brain, no, this is about personal time now. Okay. And again, brain loves calendars. I don't know why we didn't evolve with calendars, but the brain still responds to them very well. Okay, so, you know, writing that in your calendar is reminding you, like, that's the task now, is to actually live your life.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, but let's talk about talking about.

[Raina Greenberg]

Work before we break the rituals. I want to talk about Sunday night rituals. Like, how do we not get Sunday scary?

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, well, I want to come back to that.

[Raina Greenberg]

I want to talk about talking about work at home.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. Okay. Sunday night.

[Raina Greenberg]

Sunday night. How do we not talk?

[Ashley Hess]

Everyone has that anxiety that creeps in.

[Guy Winch]

So a lot of people get, right, the dread on Sunday of, like, the work week is about to begin. First of all, what that shows you is how stressful your job is, that your mind, in anticipatory dread of what is to come, is stressing you out just by the anticipation of it. So when that happens, you want to do a couple of things. First of all, you want to try and create a task on Monday morning before work that is something enjoyable. And then so on Sunday night, the next thing up on the agenda is not work, but this task. It can be breakfast with a friend. It can be working out. It can be like, I start Monday mornings with an hour of, you know, your friend painting or doing whatever or going for a very refreshing walk, something you really enjoy that you can look forward to doing. It creates this buffer zone so your brain doesn't perceive the next thing up is work. The next thing up is that thing. And you also want to tell yourself that you want to message yourself like, oh, I love Monday mornings because I get to do this.

[Ashley Hess]

Listen to girls got to eat people. We've gotten that for years that, like, because they get to bring it back to us. But we would never not do Monday because we're like, we want you to kick your week with us. You know, like, for people to say they wake up Monday morning, they get to look forward to our podcast is, like, an honor.

[Raina Greenberg]

Anyway, that's why we picked Mondays.

[Guy Winch]

Yeah, great. I mean, that's great, because that's literally what I mean. It's like, if people are looking forward to the podcast and they can listen to it on Monday morning. I'm suggesting they listen to it on Monday morning before work and start your week with something that you're looking forward to, that you enjoy. It really makes a difference because then it really balances out. Sunday arrives and I have to start the work week, but I, I get to listen to the podcast, so that really matters. And it's these kinds of things that the layering the buffer zone between the Sunday night and the Monday morning. The other thing is a lot of people go away for the weekends and then they have a drive back and they spend one to three hours in the car in traffic and by the time they get back they're so irritable and then they have to go to work. So like there's no buffer zone there. You're not. So try. If you have a week in place, that's great. But try and come back a little bit earlier and do something enjoyable.

[Raina Greenberg]

We do that on Sundays. We always do that on Sundays.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, that's been a really great thing about being on the west coast. I don't prefer to be like behind the rest of the world time wise, but at least you gain the time back. So when I was on my tour this year, I really always wanted that first flight out on Sunday morning to get back by 10am So I really mostly had breakfast with my husband Sunday and then just felt like we're fresh, like the travels are kind of behind me. But getting back Sunday night is so brutal. You're so right doing Monday morning. But I like really love this Monday morning ritual. And I know some people are thinking, like, how am I going to manage that? I got to wake up at six, get into the office, whatever, but if you can, like, I even love this coffee with a friend. Like the workout class. It's really, I'm loving this. I mean, I'll sometimes go to bed at night excited for my coffee in the morning. I'm just like, yeah, me too.

[Guy Winch]

I'm a little bit of an addict. And so it's like, yay.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. Like I got some new Nespresso pods to try out. Like I have a special latte syrup. Like I will get excited about my coffee or breakfast.

[Raina Greenberg]

So I get excited about my morning ritual. I love waking up in the morning. I try to draw high heart line and I don't message anybody before, like unless it's an emergency. 9am I try to like do my to do list, make breakfast, have coffee, message friends back, voice, note all my thoughts and feelings and like then we'll get into work unless it's like an emergency.

[Guy Winch]

And if you have control. Most people don't have control in their jobs. But if you do have control, or if you're a manager and you have control, don't schedule meetings for Monday morning. Yeah, because it's already starting with tension. You know, allow people to ease in a little bit to the workday because you're kind of like, you know, it's not productive. You're just getting them all tense and then like ease in if you can.

[Ashley Hess]

Amen.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, so we're take a quick break and then we'll get back into it with Guy Audible, a new partner. Love books. From visionary creator Kenya Barris comes Big Age, the hilarious and heartwarming Audible original comedy about love, aging, and finding your way in life's next chapter. Big Age stars comedy legends Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer and Niecy Nash Betts. Big Age follows recently retired couple Dot and Butch Watts reluctantly relocating to their new Florida home, Sunset Gardens, a senior community that is anything but relaxing. So in this community, Dot and Butch encounter a parade of just sort of like unforgettable personalities, and they push their 50 year marriage to the limit. So there's Butches like flirtatious ex flame Ethel, played by Niecy Nash Betts, and spiritually possessed neighbors, pesky pill pushing couples, and the ferociously competitive Stevenator. Through its blood of outrageous comedy and touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Listen to Kenny Barnes new laugh out loud Audible original comedy Big Age Starring Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer and Niecy Nash Betts. Big Age Age does funny things. Go to audible.com bigages to start listening today.

[Ashley Hess]

And Rocket Money. Okay, I think we've all experienced some ridiculous subscription or hidden fee you have decided, discovered you were paying for. Never knew when you see it, you're like, oh, my. This happened to me recently. I'm not going to name any names, but it was like something I got years ago for, like, viruses on a computer, which I'm like, what even?

[Raina Greenberg]

What?

[Ashley Hess]

When did I have this in college? Like, I don't even know. Well, I'm not going to say the name, but I was like, have I been paying for this? So I realized that. So this could be happening for something that you don't even know you're paying for. And Rocket Money can help. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. I Was actually talking with my husband recently and he was talking about a friend that's just kind of struggling with his bills and his spending. And I was like, you should use this app. Like, it's obviously so much more than the subscriptions. It really helps you manage your finances and get a clear picture of how many bills and expenses you have a month with what you're bringing home, what you can spend on. It just really helps you with all of that. It again, can track your subscriptions, has the ability to cancel. Within the app with just a few taps, saving time and avoiding charges, you can set budgets and goals, get personalized insights and regular reports, and receive real time alerts for large transactions, upcoming bills, refunds and low balances. I mean, what a dream. It's just like constantly keeping you in check. It can consolidate your checking, savings, loans, investments into a single dashboard to give you a clear view of your financial picture and help you grow towards those goals. With adjustable amounts and frequency. You can just set it and forget it. That's their approach. So you can let Rocket money help you reach your financial goals faster. [e-mail] GGE that's RocketMoney.com GGE RocketMoney.com GGE.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, and we all made resolutions in January, February. We, we tend to like, you know, be like, oh, I'm done, I'm not gonna do that. But don't let that happen to you guys. So if you've walked away from an idea, whether it's due to time or resources or motivation, a people tend to give up on those dreams. But Shopify will help you make things really simple. They are the number one best place in my opinion to start and grow a business just like ours. So if you have a side hustle, if you're ready to just grow any type of business, it is the best place to do it. And Ashley and I have run both of our businesses. Girls gotta eat merch and vibes only through Shopify since day one. It is the easiest platform to use. It is a one stop shop for resources. So if you're like, I don't know how to build, build a website. They have amazing AI tools. They'll make things really easy for you with photos and descriptions and their support is second to none. Ashley and I use the app and the website to log in really from anywhere and check our sales. Our whole team can log in. The reporting is phenomenal. They just make it so user friendly.

[Ashley Hess]

And simple and that cha ching sound every time you get a sale. Keep your, you know My phone's usually on silent, but if I'm going through a big something big on Shopify, I'm keeping it all just cha ching, cha ching, just walking around. I'm rich, bitch money.

[Raina Greenberg]

And we all live on our phone. So you can tag and sell your products globally across all major social media platforms. It makes it possible to sell where your customers are. It's one of my favorite features of Shopify because it just allows us to sell products directly on our channels. And really it is what has made Vibes only possible. It's allowed us to have our entire team logged in, tons of users, different permissions, and we can always just track everything through the reporting. And I cannot stress enough how easy this is to use and how many plugins and tools they have for you. So if you're hungry for a chance to become your own boss, it is time to take your ideas and head over to Shopify today. Go to shopify.com GGE to get started. We promise you will be so happy that you did okay. So back to what she was saying. I do think that people have a tendency all Sunday night and the minute they get home from work to just bitch about work, but not even okay.

[Ashley Hess]

So I just want to talk to you. Even with our brains and letting work go, but also talking about it. Not. Not even bitching, just.

[Raina Greenberg]

Just venting.

[Ashley Hess]

What or positive, like just talking about work. You're. You put yourself back in it. Yes. I think we're talking more about the negativity, but I think you might have somebody who. I mean, I can think about my husband who he gets home from work. And I'm like, how was work? And he's like, I'm trying to forget about work, you know, and then you're in this like, but I want to hear about your day. And he's like, I don't want to talk about my day.

[Guy Winch]

So that's what good for him. Because he's like, you know, there's just. I can about it. But I actually would rather shift gears. Look, the thing about stress is it's extremely psychological and our unconscious. I try and make this point in the book. I talk about the unconscious a lot because our unconscious and it's going to make people paranoid, is always listening. But it is always listening. So when you talk about like, oh, I have such a difficult week coming up, I'm so stressed out, et cetera. Your unconscious, like, oh, it better like activate and be in the fight or flight zone and be prepared now. Yes, you might have some difficult moments during the week, week. But you probably have some less difficult moments during the week. So be more accurate. And you can shave off a huge percentage of stress by just being more accurate by just saying, I have a couple of difficult meetings, but I have some easy days too. You know, I ask people how stressful is your job? And they go, oh, it's very stressful. I'm like, well, if you keep saying your job as a whole is very stressful, then you are setting yourself up to be stressed out, even in the easy way moments, which is a shame and a waste. And it's again, adding stress to your day. Be more measured, be more accurate. Be like, oh, some difficult meetings here, or this day is very difficult, but there'll be some easy times. There'll be some easy meetings, and I can take nice long lunch breaks here. Be more accurate. And that way you can lower significant amounts of stress just by redefining it to yourself, let alone to others.

[Ashley Hess]

I like that because I think we talk a lot about complain about your job, but it's worth saying what's good about your job. And I hate to keep bringing up my husband, but I'm thinking about him a lot in this episode. I was just telling you, like, the things he doesn't like about it and complains about. I was saying he was able to leave early for us to go to this football game on Monday. You know, like, there's flexibility and there's good things that a lot of people don't have. I think it's worth focusing on the good too. And the reason framing, because I don't know anyone, that's when you ask about their job, their mind immediately goes to the good. I mean, I don't know. I think most people immediately think work negative stress, so.

[Guy Winch]

So what's really important? So, for example, just to use an example, when you get to leave your job early to go to the game, it's very important in those moments to express appreciation for that. You know, one thing about my job I really like is I get to leave early and go to the game. One thing I like about my job is I get to cut out and go to the gym during lunch. Nobody's the wiser. One thing I like about my job is this. Like, make sure that when you're doing the things, even if it's daily, you're expressing the appreciation again to yourself. You don't have to say it aloud because that will balance things out. You will feel less stress when you remind yourself of the less stressful moments, the advantages, the ways in which your job is good.

[Ashley Hess]

And he started taking these scooters to work. And he has said it's the best part of his day. He works so close to home that he just started doing this. And he's like, it's, I get to be outside and ride to work outdoors. It's like it changed. I think it's, like, changed his entire, like, outlook on work. I mean, how lucky are you to have such a short commute, but also, like, not get in the car, deal with parking, all of that. I think it's, like, changed. Okay, I'm done talking about him. He's just on my mind a lot because he's like a person that is relatable to a lot of the way people feel about their job.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, I think it's. Everybody in psychology will tell you, your brain will believe the stories that you tell it, and you're the narrator of all these things. And I think back to times when we've had really demanding tour schedules. And Ashley and I will work Monday through Thursday and Friday morning. We have to get on a plane and we'll do shows Friday, Saturday, and sometimes Sunday night. And I'm so exhausted and beside myself from how tired I am. And I really have to work to remind myself how fun this is, how lucky I am. What an honor it is that people spend money to come see you. And I have a tour coming up also, which I think will have started by the time this podcast comes up. But I already have to remind myself, like, be present, enjoy this. Remind yourself how fun this is, and be in the moment, enjoy the journey. Yeah, because I don't want to look back and think I was so tired and stressed the whole time.

[Guy Winch]

You said something so important, so I want to emphasize it. You said, I really have to work at reminding myself of how fortunate I am in many kinds of ways. Yes, you do. And I'm saying, not you, but to the audience. You have to work to remind yourself of that. Because it's much easier to slide into the complaining, to slide into the bitching, to slide into the negativity. That is much more satisfying to just wallow. It is. Unfortunately, that's how we are. Like, you know, we love self pity and we love feeling victimized and we love feeling like, oh, poor me, but. And it's harder because you're feeling, ugh. So when you're feeling really tired and stressed, to remind yourself, like, but I'm fortunate is actually laborious. Emotionally. It's not easy to do, but it's so important to Do. Because A, it's true, and B, it lifts. It really lifts you. It really. It gives you some ability to exhale because, yes, it's very difficult. But I'm fortunate to have this problem. I'm fortunate to be tired in that, you know, like, the podcast is so successful. We're doing all this interesting, fun stuff. It's great to think back to your days at Amazon or wherever it is and realize, like, wow, if I think back to how I felt then, I'm in a golden place right now. That's amazing that I was able to do that and build that. And so to get that perspective and to do it regularly, it takes work because that's not our default. But it's such a healthy thing to do.

[Ashley Hess]

I know. I think about my brother who's so stressed and really works for himself and he feels like he can never turn it off and he has to remind himself. But I get to wake up with my boys every morning and have lunch with them. Some days I don't have to go. He has a lot of friends who go off to the office. They work a 12 hour day and they don't see their kids. And so I think he's been able to reframe it in that way. Like the things I get to do because of this structure I have.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, you have to. I mean, you'd go crazy otherwise.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, Ashley was on tour the whole past year and we talked a couple nights ago about like just having to remind yourself the whole time, like, I'm tired. But this is really wonderful.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, this is really special. And I'm. I'm really lucky and. Okay, so let's go back to personal relationships.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. So I think from the opposite end of it, I think a lot of us have our partner comes home and they're really stressed and they want to really vent Sunday nights and they walk in the door and it's just like, obviously you're the receptacle of that. Cause you're their best friend and you're the person they talk to at the end of the day and you're their confidant. But as the partner that feels like my partner comes home every day and is really unhappy, miserable, wants to talk about, really brings this home. Do you have advice for how to talk to them without being like, let's set a boundary. You don't get to talk about work for the first 20 minutes because that can feel really hot and condescending to your partner.

[Guy Winch]

Well, first of all, get them the book.

[Ashley Hess]

The book.

[Guy Winch]

Because that would be a good way to go about it. But truly, I think it's fair to say what would be helpful to you. Do you want to talk about it? Like, your husband does not. You're like, I don't want to talk about it.

[Ashley Hess]

Sometimes he does. I just see as an example of somebody who I get right.

[Guy Winch]

Let's say he does, and let's say somebody does. Would it be helpful to talk about. Yes. Can we decide when we'll talk about it so that it's not in jibs and drabs and takes the whole evening? Because it affects my mood, too. I want to be here. I want to be supportive. I want to listen. I want to be able to, you know, just validate, give advice, whatever you need. Can we decide on when's the best time for that to happen? Do you need 15 minutes to kind of decompress and just have time for yourself? Would it be helpful to do before dinner or after dinner? What can we decide together on what's the most effective way we can do it so that we can keep it in its place so that work doesn't invade our evening? Because let's give it some space, but. But let's not give it all the.

[Ashley Hess]

Space, figuring out where it's going to go.

[Raina Greenberg]

And also, I think these people have to, like, put their own oxygen masks on first. So, like, the point of, like, buy this book. It's like, you have to. I can only help you so far as your partner. I need you to also help yourself. I need you to go to therapy, work through these problems. Let's evaluate whether a job changes, what's next. You know, like, you can't take this on entirely. They have to help themselves, too.

[Guy Winch]

I'll give you one other case scenario, which I'm seeing a lot, unfortunately. And I get this in Q and A's, and people say to me, my partner is at the point where they can't consider anything. They're just too exhausted. And they're just like, there's nothing I can do. I don't even have the space mentally to start thinking about what I can do. And what they're describing, in essence, is real burnout. Because when you're burnt out, you don't have any bandwidth left. You're just mentally exhausted, physically exhausted, emotionally exhausted, and you don't have any bandwidth left. And so it's that when somebody says to me, like, oh, they can't even consider this. They can't even have that conversation, then I say to them, they might be truly burnt out. Are they aware that it's burnout, and are they aware that that's a very emergent thing? Because it will compromise them more and more and more. It actually requires a sort of intervention of sorts.

[Ashley Hess]

I love the idea of giving them this book. I sent my brother another book. I'm not going to mention that book in this episode because your book wasn't out yet. But I sent it to him. I was like, I think this will help. I think that's really a first step, is providing someone the tools. And if you have a partner who lashes out at you, I don't need that. I don't know. It's not the type of relationship I'd want to be in. I think they should be appreciated.

[Guy Winch]

Well, if somebody says, I don't need that. Well, but how would you know until you've read it?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I mean, I don't. I think about Alyssa, and I think they're doing great. I mean, but he. Her again, fiance who's in his residency. I just. I'm curious now how they're managing it, because that is probably the most grueling type of burnout you could be in. That's just. When she tells us the schedule, I'm like, how is this legal?

[Raina Greenberg]

It's like six, seven days a week, all night.

[Guy Winch]

I know residents. It's terrible. And, yeah, with a cold schedule, with everything, it's like, yeah, but by the way, when you have. Have a schedule like that, then that's when you have to really try and be as effective as you can in figuring out, where do I get little. Little pieces of oxygen? Where do I get little islands of something? Because when you're, you know, morning till night all the time, and you're just tired all the time, you know, one thing that happens to us, and I'm not about residents because they're physically fatigued. They're running around literally from floor to floor in the hospitals. But I'm back to our unconscious mind, which, you know, I keep talking about. But our unconscious mind doesn't distinguish well between physical and mental fatigue. So when we had a difficult day at work, we come home and we feel like, I am drained. I don't have the strength to do anything. Well, no, you're mentally drained. You're not physically drained. So just vegging out for four or five hours, you will wake up tired the next morning because you didn't recharge. You just relaxed. And it's a combo of resting and recharging that you need to have now, you know, and people know that when you force yourself to go to the gym, if you're athletic, or to go and cook, if you're into cooking, or to go and do something active that fulfills you, you will expend energy doing it. And you will feel more energized when you're done, because that's the. You know, when you're doing something that really speaks to you, then it energizes you. It re replenishes your battery. It fills your battery. Relaxing won't fill your battery. It won't deplete it, but it won't fill it. And we're constantly confusing the physical with mental fatigue. And so we actually have to be wiser in terms of I feel drained and I don't feel like getting up from the couch, but if I do, and if I do this thing that I know I like, if you're an extrovert, go meet with a friend or, you know, go for a walk and have a, you know, catch up on the phone. Do the thing that actually invigorates you. And that's the thing that will keep you much more energized because otherwise you're just gonna wake up feeling fatigued again.

[Raina Greenberg]

I wonder if you're like this, I'm saying Ashley or you also.

[Ashley Hess]

Both of you.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, I try to do kind of the opposite of what I've done all day. So if I have a day that was kind of like, I didn't really learn anything or do that much and I didn't see anybody, I tend to seek out entertainment like podcasts and shows that are kind of more information, informational heavy. Like, I'll listen to the New York Times, the Daily, or I'll watch a documentary. Whereas, like, if she and I have had these, like, very mentally charged days, I like to just listen to nonsense and pop culture type of episodes and reality tv. I kind of like, oscillate the type of stuff.

[Guy Winch]

That's exactly correct. It's to balance out your day, you know, it's to give yourself the thing that you, you know, you just depleted yourself on doing X, so do. Why now give you yourself the opposite? That's. That's correct. That's exactly right.

[Ashley Hess]

Amazing. I like talking about distinguishing between the mental and the physical fatigue, because sometimes it's physical fatigue. And that's when I have to think of how much sleep I got the night before. I like, sleep is more important every year as I age to me. And it's like the number one thing that affects the way my day goes. But, like, that I've had to do that with. Like I can work out. I'm not physically fatigued, but I feel so drained and so it does feel crazy. Sometimes I think to talk all day and record all day and do these things and then still go to dinner at night with friends and talk all night, but it makes me feel better at the end of it. Drained in a good way. I actually that's what we say about when we're in New York when we run around all day. Like you get home and are in the hotel and you feel like so drained, but in a good way. That's a really nice feeling. We don't get it as much here because we don't run around and do as much. But that's. I love the way that feels like I really left it all on the field.

[Raina Greenberg]

We really, we really like put our stamp on the day in New York. Here. 5pm I put my pajamas on. I'm done here.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. Can we end on vacations? You have a lot of thoughts?

[Guy Winch]

Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

Vacations and anti vacations. I guess.

[Guy Winch]

Yes. I'm not anti. I'm very pro vacations.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like you think you're on a vacation.

[Ashley Hess]

As an anti vacation you want all the time. Exactly.

[Guy Winch]

So look, one of the mistakes people make on vacations is they go and they're only going to dip into work a little bit and you know, it's a problem. One of the things I say about vacation is that first of all, you should know that roughly a week is where you max out the benefits. So if going on a two, three week vacation because you're really tired is much less effective than going on three one week vacations.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. Okay. Generally speaking, fuck your honeymoon.

[Guy Winch]

Yes. Secondly, the mistake most of us make is we kind of, we try and get ahead of work before we go to kind of clear the desk before we go. And then we pack last minute and then we rush to the airport and we get wherever we're going so stressed out that we spend half the vacation trying to relax and getting into vacation mode. And then half the vacation's over. And so I actually advocate taking time before the vacation to rest up. You want the last couple of nights before the vacation to be restful. You want to be well slept. You want to pack a week in advance if you can so you don't have that on your. I know, it's absurd so that you don't have that on your head. You want to have a travel packing list so you don't have to start figuring out what you need and you just, you know, you just go to it and then you want to try and get to the airport a little bit early so you're not all stressed out. You want to make sure that you get to the vacation in vacation ready mode, because then you'll get the most out of it.

[Ashley Hess]

I love this. And again, it's, you know, people's lives are different now, but if we're talking about a person who was like, they work and this is their one week long vacation, I think this is like so important. I mean, we travel all the time. I don't know the difference difference between vacation and work travel anymore. But it's really like, I think of that person, they have stayed late Friday or whatever the night before, they pack that. Then they get home and pack, and then they take a morning flight out the next morning. And so anything you can do, even if it's the one day to relax, I mean, a couple days is obviously ideal, but it's just everyone has that story of the, like, getting ahead and checking all the boxes and then rushing to pack. And if you're like, Raina, you drink wine when you pack and you have a meltdown and then you have to wake up and you're on a 6:00am.

[Guy Winch]

Flight, like, okay, but it's also guilt, right? It's also like, I want to show all my co workers that I'm, I'm trying to like, do the best for them so they don't get stuck with things or whatever. But it's like you're ruining your vacation. Like, in other words, try and be a little bit more thoughtful. If you can get back, don't get back Sunday night for a Monday workday because you'll, you know, like, get back Sunday morning if you can, if you can just get some time, but buffer. And then I also believe in triple dipping with vacations. In other words, spend time before the vacation, getting excited about it, planning what you're gonna do. Now, you don't need spoilers, but like, anticipate, like, oh, I can't wait to do this, or I can't wait to do that. And then when you're there, make sure you have extra time every everywhere to document. People actually are much guiltier about documenting instead of being present in the thing. Like, I would see people in certain places, I go where they are really just there to take pictures, to show the people that they've been there, as opposed to absorb in any way, shape or form where they are and why they're there.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes, I've had to like, make deals with myself to stop doing this, where I will, like, sit there and take, like, 15 photos of the same thing. And I've had to make promises to myself. One photo of this thing, or just.

[Guy Winch]

Build in a little extra time. First enjoy, then take the photo.

[Ashley Hess]

I love that.

[Guy Winch]

And then, because, look, our memory is not great. What we will remember from the vacation is the media that we took on the vacation. So you're curating your memories here when you're taking photos and videos, but curate them well, don't do it at the expense of actually being there, because then you actually lose out. So build in some extra time to then document. And then when you're done, when you get home, organize it into folders, create a little booklet. Do something so that you can then relive the vacation and do that in the week that you get back. So then you kind of extending the vacation vibe.

[Ashley Hess]

Triple dipping.

[Guy Winch]

It's triple dippy.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, how many people have gone to see fireworks and only watched the fireworks through their phone screen?

[Ashley Hess]

Which. No one wants a fireworks pick.

[Raina Greenberg]

Concerts, I mean, and by the way.

[Guy Winch]

And then they have 20 minutes of fireworks. Are they gonna sit through and watch that? No. Are they gonna punish other people by having to sit through and watch that? No. A minute of fireworks is sufficient. Look how pretty it was. Here's a sample.

[Ashley Hess]

Minute's a little long even, I agree.

[Guy Winch]

But it's like. But they, you know, like. And you. And the phone is not here. It's in front of their face, so they're not seeing it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Concerts.

[Raina Greenberg]

I have to promise myself to not.

[Ashley Hess]

Film all because I'm not gonna do anything with it. You know, you have the album.

[Guy Winch]

So, like, you know, those are the.

[Ashley Hess]

Boundaries you set on yourself. And I go see my favorite artist, which is Beyonce. I thought I go into it. It feels so corny. But I'm like, Ashley, you're gonna get, like, these three moments for your Instagram story, and that's it. And I think Serena Kerrigan posted this. She's an influencer and creator, and I think she was pretty honest about the issues with her boyfriend when they would travel, and she needed him to take pictures of her and this and that. And I can't remember exactly. Exactly what she did. It was some sort of, like, time limit, or we only take this many photos, and if we get the shot, we get the shot. And she said it's really helped their relationship because someone like her, who does this for a living and needs to get this content, she relies on her partner to do it. And I think he's happy to help. They're a wonderful couple, but it gets to a point where it's too much and then he's not enjoying it. So whatever they did felt really healthy and positive and helped their relationship. So he not, like, how many more pictures?

[Guy Winch]

So just. Just plan ahead a little bit early so you can take. So you can document, so you can do the thing. You can get a, you know, a few seconds of the footage while you're there, but then be able to enjoy it because you're not enjoying it when you're so stressed out about, will I get the right footage?

[Ashley Hess]

I just think that's. We. We feel kind of silly, like, planning ahead if you don't do it for a living. For example, if you are just a person who wants to post on your own Instagram. But it's not. It's. It's just making sure you can achieve.

[Guy Winch]

Everyone makes this mistake. Everyone is so obsessed with, I need to find the right picture. And you're literally missing out on what you're there for.

[Ashley Hess]

Doesn't that feel so good when you do it early? Like, we were in Greece. We're like, got the shot. Now we can. Now we can enjoy the boat.

[Guy Winch]

Do it first, then enjoy.

[Raina Greenberg]

I thought about that in Greece because, like, I actually, before we went to Greece, we went to Santorini. We've gone a couple times. We love Greece. I looked up, like, photos that everyone takes in Santorini, and I was like, okay, here's two spots that would be fun to take photos in. And we got those shots and we were able to enjoy it and be with everybody. And we have each other. We're lucky. But I think a lot of. To Ashley's point, a lot of couples experiences are that one of them is trying to be an influencer, be on social media. They mod. They make money from this. I understand they want to, like, post affiliate links, and this is their livelihood, but they also deserve to enjoy these experiences.

[Ashley Hess]

But it feels so good to not do that on vacation. Like the times when I'm like, I did get the. This content, or I'm not getting it because it doesn't matter. And I'm good with what I have so far. When you actually are like, the person with your phone away, you're just looking around and soaking it up.

[Raina Greenberg]

An icon.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. You really feel kind of cocky about it. Well, guy, thank you so much. Again, can you tell us where people can get the book? Anywhere, Everywhere, where you recommend.

[Guy Winch]

So the book should be available everywhere and anywhere it's in audiobook. I do the reading. Ebook and hardcover. Find out more information. They can go to guy winch.com and then you'll have links to my social media, to my substack newsletter and all the other stuff.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

If people want more content, you were on the show in September of 2020 and September of 2022. Those are both on our website. You can search those episodes. But you have great books. You have two other books.

[Ashley Hess]

Three other books.

[Raina Greenberg]

Three other books. And then this book. And so we really encourage people, people to just really consume all your content.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes. Give this to every stressed out person you know. And you guys know where to find us. Girls gotta eat.com, we are girls gotta eat podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I am Ash Hess. Raina Greenberg. Raina Greenberg.com for her tour tickets and subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend and we will see you Thursday.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, and Vibes, only for Valentine's Day gifts for a stressful person in your life. Vibesonly.com have a great week. Guys.

[Guy Winch]

Guys.