Unpacking Fawning, the Misunderstood Trauma Response with Dr. Ingrid Clayton

Summary

Girls Gotta Eat — “Unpacking Fawning, the Misunderstood Trauma Response”

Guest: Dr. Ingrid Clayton
Hosts: Ashley Hesseltine & Raina Greenberg
Release Date: September 15, 2025

Episode Overview

In this powerful episode, Ashley and Raina welcome Dr. Ingrid Clayton, clinical psychologist and author of the new book Why the Need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves and How to Find Our Way Back, to explore “fawning” — the often overlooked trauma response that goes beyond people pleasing. With a blend of clinical expertise and lived experience, Dr. Clayton unpacks how fawning develops, how it impacts relationships, why it can be so hard to recognize in yourself, and how to start breaking the cycle. The conversation is raw, candid, and laced with the Girls Gotta Eat humor, even while discussing deeply personal and challenging subjects.

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Important Discussion Segments & Timestamps

1. What is Fawning? (00:00, 31:46, 35:07)

• Definition and Context:
  Dr. Ingrid Clayton introduces fawning as a trauma response on par with fight, flight, and freeze, particularly common among those with a history of complex or relational trauma.

  “What most of us have known for a long time is fight, flight, and freeze. But fawning is this fourth response — this placating, shape-shifting adaptation to maintain connection and safety with those in power.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [00:00, 35:07]

• Why It Arises:
  Particularly in childhood or within systems of power, fawning is about ensuring safety and maintaining attachment when fighting or fleeing aren’t options.

  “We need our caregivers longer than any other species. We are dependent on them... Fawning became this way for me to navigate the daily, chronic, ongoing, pervasive experiences of not only threats to my sense of safety, but I had to maintain these relationships.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [35:07]

2. Fawning vs. People Pleasing & Agency (42:24)

• Key Differences:
  Fawning is not simply “being nice” or choosing to please people, but a reflexive, unconscious pattern that leads to self-abandonment.

  “The distinguishing factor between fawning and say, what we've called people pleasing... is that it is an unconscious reflex.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [39:02]

• Loss of Self:

  “Am I doing that because it's a conscious choice or am I doing that because the only safety and connection I've ever known has been to a degree where I don't really get to fully exist unless I'm prioritizing someone else's needs?” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [43:32]

3. Lived Experience and Clinical Story (31:46, 34:37)

• Dr. Clayton’s Personal Background:
  She shares growing up experiencing grooming and child abuse, and how that led to chronic fawning responses, both in childhood and later in dysfunctional adult relationships.

  “I've been trying to unpack what I now know is a chronic experience of the fawning trauma response my entire life, including getting three degrees in psychology.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [31:46]

• Resonating with Listeners:
  Ashley and Raina reflect on how these survival modes show up in everyday life—from racism and cultural assimilation to “going along” with group dynamics instead of standing up for yourself.

4. The Many Faces of Fawning (44:03, 55:00)

• How It Shows Up:
  • Conflict avoidance
  • Shrinking oneself in relationships
  • Always deferring to others
  • Repeated unhealthy relationship patterns, such as dating avoidant or emotionally unavailable people
• Chemistry vs. Unresolved Trauma:
  Dr. Clayton explains how, for people like her, the “spark” they feel is often unresolved trauma—not healthy attraction.

  “I didn't have any chemistry with healthy options... I believed what I was feeling — which now I know was unresolved trauma — was healthy chemistry.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [46:05]

5. Breaking the Cycle: “Unfawning” (76:26)

• It’s Not About Quick Fixes:
  Unfawning isn’t flipping a switch or “just setting boundaries.” It's slow work: learning to tolerate discomfort, acknowledging anxiety or terror at saying “no,” and regaining a sense of agency.

  “Unfawning to me is a radical paradigm shift… We’re not getting rid of these things; they are lifesaving. What we're doing is saying, we don't need to live there 24/7 in survival mode.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [76:34]

• First Steps:
  • Name the pattern in yourself
  • Gently get curious about the feelings that arise at the thought of saying “no” or asserting yourself
  • Small acts of autonomy, even if only in your imagination at first

6. High-Functioning Fawners (54:45)

• Success and Loneliness:
  People who fawn are often high achievers, thriving on pleasing others and winning validation — but still feeling empty, restless, or “missing in their own life.”

  “I was doing those things to almost become a different version of me. I was doing those things to override my wounding.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [53:55] “Faunas want me to like them as clients… Am I your favorite? …And I know this, too, from being a client in therapy.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [56:48]

7. Audience Takeaways & Real-Life Examples (68:10, 71:13)

• Day-to-day People Pleasing:
  The hosts discuss the everyday versions — friends who can’t say “no,” helping at their own expense, or staying in uncomfortable situations out of fear of being disliked.

  “I have a friend…self identifies as a people pleaser. She'll say… ‘They keep bothering me to go to this thing and I really don't want to go. But then she'll just go.’ ...and I'm like, then don't go?” — Raina Greenberg [68:10]

• The Importance of Naming the Pattern:
  Becoming aware of these patterns is itself powerful and disruptive — the first step to change.

8. Vulnerability and Supportive Relationships (61:29, 63:00)

• What Healing Looks Like:
  Dr. Clayton describes her now-healthy marriage, where vulnerability and mutual respect are the norm, not the exception.

  “What I discovered…when I brought my concerns to him, he did not gaslight me… He goes, ‘Oh, yeah, that makes sense that you would feel that way.’” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [61:43]

  • “You've always worked so hard to make the wrong person right, and now you're trying real hard to make the right person wrong.” — Dr. Clayton’s mentor, Bill [63:00]

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Notable Quotes

• “Fawning becomes this really genius, adaptive way to navigate relationship to power.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [35:07]
• “[Fawning] is the trauma response that hides in plain sight. Because it does look like, even to the person who's experiencing it, like, I'm choosing to be here. I'm perfectly fine with what's happening.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [39:02]
• “A lot of the time, the only safety and connection I've ever known was at the expense of myself.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [43:32]
• “I've never heard anybody coin it as, ‘I didn't feel chemistry with a healthy relationship.’ And that is just so true.” — Raina Greenberg [48:00]
• “I think you named it exactly: anxiety…a lot of faunas are very anxious, but we don't know that we're anxious because we're so focused on what you're feeling and what you need.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [71:55]
• “Unfawning…is not about you're healed or unhealed. It's about slowly getting more comfortable with living in your own skin.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [76:34]

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Highlights / Memorable Moments

• Ashley and Raina’s openness in sharing their own patterns:
  The hosts relate Dr. Clayton’s insights to their lives; Raina discusses increasing comfort with conflict and Ashley brings up practical friendship examples.
• Dr. Clayton’s metaphor of "winning therapy":
  Both hosts and Dr. Clayton commiserate on trying to “perform” in therapy instead of be vulnerable.

  “Faunas want me to like them as clients. Am I your favorite? …I wonder what it would be like if you weren't missing in your own life.” — Dr. Ingrid Clayton [56:48]

• Recognition of “chemistry” as a trauma reenactment:
  Both hosts are blown away by Dr. Clayton’s statement that what feels like “chemistry” can be the body recalling unresolved trauma, not true compatibility [46:05]

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Actionable Takeaways

• Awareness is the first step:
  Recognize if you’re operating in fawn mode not by conscious choice, but reflexive fear or anxiety.
• Instead of forcing boundaries immediately, start by:
  • Noticing the feelings that arise when contemplating saying “no”
  • Identifying the root of your discomfort (is it fear of disconnection, loss of value, etc?)
  • Practicing small acts of saying “no” or advocating for yourself in low-stakes scenarios
• Understand that the goal isn’t to “cure” yourself but to get more comfortable living authentically, even when it’s uncomfortable

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Additional Resources

• Dr. Ingrid Clayton’s Book:
  Why the Need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves and How to Find Our Way Back — out now.
• Find Dr. Ingrid Clayton:
  Website: ingridclayton.com
  Social: @IngridClaytonPhD

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[End of Main Content]

For more insights and updates, visit: girlsgottaeat.com
Follow: @girlsgottaeatpodcast, @ashhess, @rainagreenberg

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Transcript

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

So basically, you know, we're talking about fawning as a trauma response. And what most of us have known for a long time is fight, flight and freeze.

[Ashley Hess]

This podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Raina Greenberg]

Hi, guys.

[Ashley Hess]

Hi, guys.

[Raina Greenberg]

Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta eat. Welcome back, baby. Big day, big day.

[Ashley Hess]

We have a big announcement on the way. You know what? Today, 9, 15 might.

[Raina Greenberg]

Wait, let me guess. I don't know.

[Ashley Hess]

It's a birthday.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's a birthday in your life.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Stop.

[Ashley Hess]

I don't know. Well, I don't know if you know this one, but my sister in law, she's turning 30.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, she is a grown up now.

[Ashley Hess]

She's so grown up. She's mother of two.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, happy birthday, Steph.

[Ashley Hess]

Happy birthday, Steph.

[Raina Greenberg]

A 30th. You gotta.

[Ashley Hess]

You love to see it.

[Raina Greenberg]

I will never forget her being like 25 in the house her and your brother own. She's cooking us dinner and I'm like, she's so much more grown than me. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

And I survived my filler. I went without you yesterday and I.

[Raina Greenberg]

Don'T like not being on the same.

[Ashley Hess]

Schedule for this and I went without you and I got a little temple filler with Dr. Barrett and I love it, but I went without yesterday and I was sad. But we'll go back at the end of the month.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, we are going to go back at the end of the month together.

[Ashley Hess]

I haven't gotten my, like my full before my wedding and my special Daxify refresh, so we're booked for the 29th, so I hope you can make it 3pm it's been.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's been on my thing for a while.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, well, I booked you in.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, well, thank you. All right, well, remind me when we're done.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, well, let's just talk about our partners and then we will make our announcement.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. Thanks to Function, our first 1,000 listeners get a $100 credit towards your [e-mail] GGE or use the code GGE100. And Smart Mouth get a special discount on your next smart mouth [e-mail] GGE and finally, Zebiotics. Get 15% off your first [e-mail] GGE.

[Ashley Hess]

With code GGE and thank you to Rocket Money. Cancel your unwanted [e-mail] GGE ban Saks Fifth Avenue. Head to Saks Fifth Avenue or Saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style every day. And thank you to AG1. Get a free. What is that supposed to say? Cause this says brother.

[Raina Greenberg]

Frother.

[Ashley Hess]

Frother. Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

Free brother.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

It was a Freudian slip.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, my God. Trina, you've gotta get these dialed in. Get them dialed. Keep this in.

[Raina Greenberg]

This is an episode about your fucked up family, people.

[Ashley Hess]

Get a free brother with your first priest. Thank you to AG1 for this stays. Get a free frother with your first purchase of [e-mail] GGE so I get a free brother.

[Raina Greenberg]

Replace your brother with something free.

[Ashley Hess]

Thanks for fixing my family. I got a new brother. Can I turn on my brother? Okay, guys, let's get ready for it. Let's get ready for the announcement. Okay? Okay. I can't look at you. We are doing.

[Raina Greenberg]

I can't look at you like this. We are doing holiday shows.

[Ashley Hess]

In New.

[Raina Greenberg]

York, in la, you guys. We have not done shows all year, but we could not deprive you of the holiday shows. I can't look at you like this. Ashley, if you're not watching, Ashley's wearing the Grinch hands. Grinch hands.

[Ashley Hess]

I really tried to get a mask at time, but they just, like, grossed me out. So anyway, we do have a Grinch mask from a holiday show last year, but one of the strippers. Well, I think one of the strippers has it. And I was like, I'm not gonna.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know, that hot one to try.

[Ashley Hess]

To sleep with, but the hottest one has it. And then Raina is wearing a real throwback GGE merch. Leave his jingle bells on blue, which is a nod to Cardi Bs. Leave his text on red and his balls on blue. So that was probably 2018 when that song came out.

[Raina Greenberg]

This was Christmas of 2018.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

When these. When this merch came out. So we are really excited, you guys know that we would never leave you hanging. Our holiday shows are our favorite thing that we do every single year. We do it bigger, better, wilder. You can't even touch the screen, can you, with those. So there's going to be two. I'm going to have Smart touch technology.

[Ashley Hess]

Why don't my Grinch.

[Raina Greenberg]

No one's going to let you touch them with that. They're just like, finger somebody with that afterwards. So we're doing two shows and two nights only, you guys. So we will be in LA at the United Theater December 6th, Saturday night, and then we're coming to New York December 13th. Also Saturday night. We're taking it to Brooklyn. Bam Theatre.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes, Brooklyn Academy of Music. Bam Theater. Right across the bridge. We did Brooklyn one year. We did the Bell House. Those shows were lit. And we have always wanted to mix. And we've done the Beacon twice, sold it out twice, and we've done the Apollo Theater. And so we were like, what can we do that's different? And this is such a beautiful theater. We've been there, seen people tape their specials there, and so we're super excited. And then the United Theater was formerly the Ace, and we did a show there. It is stunning. Such a great place in la. We made sure we had two Saturday nights. You guys can make the trip, travel for these shows. I mean, you know, we always blow it out for holiday shows. It is the one tradition we've had since the start. Since our first year, 2018, we did holiday shows and we had a bunch of different performers and dancers and elements to it. And we're just gonna do it bigger and better. We're gonna blow it out fucking full throttle on the outfits, no boundaries, the.

[Raina Greenberg]

Costumes at this point, the costumes, see.

[Ashley Hess]

What Rayna's gonna wear. And, you know, we share never before told stories and we have special guests, we have giveaways and gifts for you guys and dancers and music and performers. And it's just gonna be epic. And we can't wait to see you there.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes. So you guys mark your calendars. We're announcing it today. The tickets go on sale next week. So next Monday, September 22, 10am local time. So mark your calendars, tell your friends. People travel for these shows. They sell really, really fast. This is a tradition that people have had for many years with us. So if you've come before, we can't wait to see you there. And I just can't wait to do it.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes. So girlsgottaeat.com is where the links are gonna be so you can get tickets there. Set your reminders. These are probably gonna go quick. I mean, only two. We're really doing it. I'm gonna be a wife.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's crazy. I think about it sometimes and just laugh.

[Ashley Hess]

Whole ass wife.

[Raina Greenberg]

You're gonna start my husband.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm 42, Rena. I just can't.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, it's cool. It's cool to have a husband.

[Ashley Hess]

I guess I'll get used to it.

[Raina Greenberg]

But I think about it sometimes and I'm just like, that's so crazy. Like, I think about how excited I am for your wedding and then I just, like, forget that you're just gonna, like, be a wife after that.

[Ashley Hess]

So come to the shows before I start my trad wife era. This is my. My grand finale. No, but we are just really so excited, and so we cannot wait to see you guys there.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, we can't wait. You guys.

[Ashley Hess]

I cannot wait to see what you're gonna wear.

[Raina Greenberg]

I can't wait to see what I'm gonna wear. I know.

[Ashley Hess]

Who's to say?

[Raina Greenberg]

Just all the stuff I've been wearing, I just. I really, like, last year, I was like a sexy Santa, and I can't do that again. So.

[Ashley Hess]

Sexy Grinch. Maybe more of the hands. That color.

[Raina Greenberg]

That green's not really my color.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, it's like brat green.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, well, maybe. All right, you guys, just stay tuned. So that'll be on sale next week. Girls gotta eat dot com.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes, girlsgotit.com and then, of course, we will be at Lady World. You guys can also get tickets on GirlsGotteat.com. so those are really the three things we're doing till the end of the year. We will be at Lady World, which is a festival in Miramar Beach, Florid, put on by Lady Gang podcast and a bunch of performers. It's going to be incredible. So we will be there end of September, doing a show there. And then December is just. It's going to be girls got to eat December.

[Raina Greenberg]

I can't wait.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm so excited, you guys.

[Raina Greenberg]

Can't wait.

[Ashley Hess]

So I have a personal update. My dad got a hip replacement today.

[Raina Greenberg]

Your mom just texted me back. She did.

[Ashley Hess]

So I. I just feel really emotional. This has been a long, frustrating road for our family because he's just been so stubborn about it, and he's put it off and he's tried to go every other route before doing this, even though it's such an easy surgery. I mean, I guess, of course, people have probably had complications, but it's one of the easier surgeries you can do. And he thought he had something wrong with his back. I mean, this has been probably two years. Like, I think I was telling you about this, and I was upset about this back when you lived in your old house, I remember. And, you know, he's just really had kind of lost a lot of his, like, physical ability in the way he walks. I mean, he's kind of been limping for quite a while now, and it was, like, kind of in his back, he thought. Also his hip. I mean, he's needed a new hip, and he's seen so many doctors. He's gone to so much physical therapy, and he didn't want to get, like, a back fusion surgery, and so he's really put this off until it got unbearable. Honestly. And I feel like he's really lost some of his identity. He hasn't been able to ski. He hasn't been able to be as active on the farm. I mean, he's so, so active. And he still has been, but I feel like it's been painful for him, and he's tried to manage the pain, and it's been a really long journey and us trying to convince him, but, you know, you can't convince a stubborn old man like that to do anything. And so we finally came around to it, and he finally got the surgery today, and all went well. And I got to show you this video, Raina. So it's quick, you know, And I knew this because I had guy friends who used to work in medical device sales, and they'll be in the room sometimes, and it's so. It's quick and easy in your home that night a lot of times. But I did not expect this. My mom sent me this video. Look at him. He's just up.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

I've been telling him this.

[Ashley Hess]

His up new hip. He's like. They have him do this, like, step up thing. I mean, he's going to be walking with a walker and go. And having physical therapy while he gets used to it and everything for a couple weeks. But look at this man go. I cried when I saw this.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm so proud of him. I know.

[Ashley Hess]

So if you're wondering, yes, I did pull the wedding card to get him to do this. I said, you're not gonna be limping me down the aisle. I just.

[Raina Greenberg]

I get really. I get really emotional when you talk about it. And you and I have talked about this offline a lot, but it's hard to see your parents get older and also reach this phase of life where, like, they're also wrestling with their own demons of, like, my body doesn't work the way it used to. My mind doesn't work the way it used to. And I watch my dad forget stuff sometimes, and he'll say, like, well, I'm getting older, and it's hard to watch somebody struggle with that phase of life. And somebody like your dad, who's, like, so physically active, and he's a big guy, and he's the person that, like, carries the suitcases and does the work around the farm, like, in skis. And it's really hard to accept that your identity is that you're getting older. And I knew he'd be okay with my Aunt Sherry, Uncle John's wife, she got a hip replacement, and she was. Same thing up, moving around. But it sounds terrifying.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. And he had one friend who had a complication with the catheter. I mean, I think he just had some fears, and I think he just came to this on his own. And I joke about the wedding thing, but I do think that was important. I think he wants to walk me down the aisle and be able to dance with me briefly.

[Raina Greenberg]

They told him, you can't dance with me.

[Ashley Hess]

They were like, you can slow dance with your daughter, but not fast dance with her. I'm like, yeah, we didn't have, like, a choreographed routine plan.

[Raina Greenberg]

He was dancing at Matt's wedding.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, he'll. He'll get. He'll get on the dance floor. He has some moves, but so I think that was part of it. And maybe that was, like, the final moment of, like, he waited till the last minute until that was really.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

He really did.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. And so he talked to enough friends and people who had had it done and told him it was no big deal. And I hope this really does give him back most of his physical ability. I think he still has some issues in his back, but this is, like, the best we're going to get. He's not going to do a back surgery, so I couldn't be. I mean, it has been so many conversations between, like, me and my mom and my brother, and, like, which strategy do we take to talk to him? Like, should Ashley talk to him? Should Matt talk to him? My mom's like, I can't do anymore. You know, and so I think it's maybe affected some of his relationships, like, mainly with my mom. And, you know, this is, like, personal, but it is something that we all deal with as our parents age. And so it does feel like once he scheduled the surgery, we all breathe this collective sigh of relief. And he's been in such good spirits about it, and now it's done. And I just hope this gives him, you know, his identity back.

[Raina Greenberg]

I feel like I'm gonna cry. Oh, I know.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm, like, holding it. I'm just trying to kind of disassociate while I talk about it, because it's been, like, the early days of this, and, like, seeing him, like, limping around and, you know, him not picking up, being able to pick my suitcase up and do those things, it's so hard. And cognitively, my parents are both really still there, and they're really healthy, and I'm so lucky for that. And that's not a lot of people's story. And so to have that and just to have this one thing holding him back. We were like, just fucking fix it. Just try. At least just try. You're lucky to have the resources and the insurance or the money or whatever it is to just take your health into your own hands.

[Raina Greenberg]

I really encourage people to talk to your parents about this stuff. And it sounds like so like mom's telling you what to do. But we have another friend also who's. She was encouraging her father to get his heart checked, and he's of the same age. He's stubborn. Men are so stubborn as they get older. She was like, please go do this. And he kept avoiding it, and he did. And there was some pretty serious complications. And she was able to convince him to get surgery and take care of himself. And God forbid, had she not stayed on top of him. And I think these men, as they get older, they're so stubborn, and they're not gonna listen to you. And these conversations are like. They treat you like you're crazy, like you're the child. Back off of me. And it doesn't matter. Stay fucking on them.

[Ashley Hess]

Stay vigilant.

[Raina Greenberg]

I can't imagine your dad if this just got worse. I mean, to be in pain every day is my worst nightmare. Chronic pain.

[Ashley Hess]

Chronic pain. Yeah. So I hope this fixes it. And I mean, to me, I'm just like. Even it's the back and the hip fix one, because you have the bag, and it's weighing on the hip. You have no cartilage left in your hip. You know, like, this should work wonders for him. And so, I mean, he's gonna come to the special taping. Like, I think that's, like, the first time he'll really step out, stepping out, show off that new hip. And so, yeah, but I have been joking about it, that I really, like. This was my Bridezilla moment, and I was like, don't you dare come to the wedding if you don't get a hip replacement. Let me see that hip. Let me see what that hip do.

[Raina Greenberg]

I want to see him comfy in a suit.

[Ashley Hess]

Exactly.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know, looking as hot as he is.

[Ashley Hess]

He's in a tux. We're trying to get him in a tux.

[Raina Greenberg]

Is he gonna wear a tux?

[Ashley Hess]

We're trying to get him in one.

[Raina Greenberg]

I just ordered my suit yesterday.

[Ashley Hess]

It's gonna be in a tux.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm gonna wear a suit to marry you. One outfit left. I got my Halloween costume. I got my Indian outfit. I got my suit to marry you. I need one more outfit.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, my gosh.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm very excited.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Ah, it's really happening.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, so what is going on with you?

[Raina Greenberg]

My only news is that I'm on a friendship journey. I don't want to be. I don't want to be, but I.

[Ashley Hess]

Have no new friends.

[Raina Greenberg]

You and I had this crazy mass exodus from LA in the last, like, six months, really, where, like, some of my closest girlfriends have left. We have lost, like, a bunch of friends that are couples. I mean, you lose two people in one foul swoop. It's crazy, right? Multiple couples. And then I just feel like people haven't been around this summer. And I went back to New York for, like, a few weeks, and, like, every second of my day was, I know people. And that's how I think you and I are used to living. That's how I like to live. And I came back here and I've just been, like, a little disappointed on the social life that you and I used to. Last year. And I don't know some. I was talking to my dad about it. He was like, so make new friends. And it's like, I think people say that really flippantly, but, like, one of the most number one questions we've gotten for eight years of the show is like, how do I make new friends?

[Ashley Hess]

It's frustrating because I don't need any more friends. I'm having a hard time keeping up with my friends. Like, I have a friend right now dealing with a very serious health issue. Like, I have. There's always something going on. I mean, we're aging too, and people's parents are dying. I mean, like, I feel like I sometimes don't have enough capacity to be a good friend to all of my friends. I had three bachelorette parties. Like, I got enough friends. It's like, they're just not here. And the same with you. And we had this point in LA where we were like, we have too many friends. Everybody's here. Too many groups of friends. Like, our weekends were always so full. We were doing so much, and then again, everybody. A lot of people moved back to New York or they moved somewhere else or they're just. Just. It's just crazy. Like, this isn't like friend breakups. We're not talking about. This is like, people just are. Are gone.

[Raina Greenberg]

They left one girl, got a boyfriend, never talked to us again.

[Ashley Hess]

That's true. Y. You know, we did lose one that way.

[Raina Greenberg]

And, you know, rip to her, you don't want friends like that.

[Ashley Hess]

Rip her loss. So, yeah, it's just like, I don't need any More friends.

[Raina Greenberg]

I can't handle any more friends. My dad was like, make new friends. And I was like, I. I've been doing that. I want more friends. I. I have reinvented my friend group a lot throughout my life because of circumstances. Like, I worked in restaurants my whole life, and then I went into the corporate world and all my friends I would party with late at night had very different schedules than me then. So I had to, like, reinvent that friend group. And then I became a food blogger and I had all these influencers and media friends. And then you and I went into podcasting and comedy and we moved to la and I've gotten all these groups of friends. I'm tired. I don't wanna do it again.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, we're full.

[Raina Greenberg]

But now I have to. Cause I can't. You know me, I hate complaining about something over and over again and not fixing it. So I'm like, I do need more.

[Ashley Hess]

And I'm like, half kidding. Like, you can always use friends, whatever, but kind of. No, but I mean, I'm just on that note again. I feel like I've struggled with keeping up with my current friends. But anyway, I want to hear about your friend making journey. I don't know about this new person.

[Raina Greenberg]

Me?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. Weren't you out watching football with some stranger?

[Raina Greenberg]

You know her? No.

[Ashley Hess]

You know her stranger.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, I always say, like, when people are like, how do I make friends? Unfortunately, the first thing you have to do is say yes to everything. And it's like, stuff you wouldn't have gone to and you wouldn't have done, but you can't complain. Like, no one's finding me in my house, on my couch, if you're not trying. And so sometimes you do have to put yourself in situations that you don't necessarily want to be in, and not dangerous situations. But I feel like hanging out with new people is a lot of social capital on me. It's not as easy and comfortable. And I went to the Hamptons a couple weekends ago. It was a whole house full of people I didn't know. And I made new friends and I love them. They're gonna be your friends now, too. And then this weekend, I had. I just. I said yes to a bunch of stuff with like, they're friends of good friends of ours.

[Ashley Hess]

They've been vetted.

[Raina Greenberg]

They've been in the mix, but they're not people I have solo plans with typically. And it was nice. I just. I am having to, like, just say yes. Yesterday I took a walk with a friend of ours. Ex girlfriend. Not on purpose. I ran into her, but I was like, she's here. Yeah, I'll hang out with her. And I mean, I'm doing it.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm really. I'm on a mission. I'm gonna find new friends. Cause I can't complain every single week.

[Ashley Hess]

That I don't have.

[Raina Greenberg]

I feel like my joke of, like, well, you know, I only have three friends. Like, I feel like people are getting tired of it and I need new material.

[Ashley Hess]

You're so right. I mean, sometimes you just have to get off the couch. Like, I'm thinking of a newer friend that we have. And we went out. It was me and you and my fiance. And then I invited her. Cause we were in her part of town, and she was like, okay. And she showed up and we all hung out all night. And I feel like now, I mean, I'll take. And like, that's our friend now, you know? And she could have very easily been like, I don't know. Like, I don't know them that well. I'm gonna go hang out. And she showed up and hung out with us all night. Went to dinner, went to drinks. And so, like, that's just an example of being like, I gotta, you know, maybe be a little bit uncomfortable for a minute.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. It is also interesting when you start hanging out with somebody that you've never hung out with on purpose. Solo. Like, they've always been like, our good friend Jackie. She's the connector of a few people. And I went to meet this girl Sunday. Sunday morning to watch football, because it's 10am here, and I've never hung out with her. Solo. She's Jackie's good friend, and I like her. I know her, but I don't know her like that. And I went to meet her, and she was with a bunch of guys I didn't know. And so it was like me and, like, new people. And it is always like, are we gonna vibe without, like, the central connector.

[Ashley Hess]

Between the two of us? But you always will. I mean, you. You get along. I've never seen someone get along with people like you. I mean, I know sometimes you'd be faking it, but you. And you're not like a fake person, but you. You really can. You might never talk to that person again, but you can really get along with anybody.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. And if I put myself in situations, I'm not saying this about her. I like this girl a lot. But, like, even if it happens to be like, you reach out to a person, you don't hang out with that much, you meet people through them. Like, I'm exactly met this guy through her that I just really like talking to. He's fun. We're not gonna date, but he's just fun to hang out with. And that's how I did it in New York. When I first moved to New York, I would hang out with these people that I'm not friends with anymore. They connect me to meet other friends.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I mean, I always use this example for Meryl and I did this, this Hampton's little share two weekends a summer through someone I got connected to from a friend from Atlanta and the girl that ran the house. Like, we never really vibed that much and we weren't friends, I would say, I mean, we were fine, but like, Meryl is what came out of that group. Like the main core group of the house were not girls I was really ever friends with besides Meryl. And that's one of my best friends. And she came from that and the Connector. I'm not friends with either of the Connectors anymore. One of them I never was. But I was thinking about friends a lot this weekend because I was at Jenny Jones wedding. So we have a little bit of a former guest update as well. Jenny was on our podcast in summer of 2021 and she shared her breast cancer journey and her dating while having breast cancer. Also, she had not yet met her now husband. He is wonderful. And they just got married this past weekend in Denver. But she's cancer free and we've mentioned that on the podcast as well. So anyway, just a little update there. And I just being at her wedding, I mean, I've been friends with her for 10 years and I forgot how many of her friends I knew. Like, I hadn't really thought too deeply about who I was going to run into at the wedding. And I'm like, this woman and I have been friends for 10 years. Like, I know a lot of her other friends. Like, people kept coming up and I was like, oh my God, Holly. Like this one girl who she lived with in Austin. When I met Jenny, she lived in Austin and she shortly moved to Atlanta. Shortly thereafter we had like our Atlanta era. Her roommate at the time was this woman Holly. If you're listening to hi Holly. And I like, I mean, I haven't thought about her in years, but I knew her. We see her and her husband in the lobby of the hotel in the morning and she's like, Ashley. I'm like, oh my God. Like, I haven't even. I wasn't thinking about people like her. We hung out with them all night. My fiance loved her husband. Like, people like that. And just people kept coming up, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I love this. I love that. Of, like, long friendships and, you know, these people's other friends, and everybody's like, obviously there to celebrate her. And in general, I just love that she waited to find her person. She just turned 40, and she's getting married. And it was nice to be around that, too.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, it looked really wonderful. I was invited. I didn't end up going, unfortunately, but it was fun.

[Ashley Hess]

They did, like, a. They got married small. I wasn't at that. It was just, like. Just pretty much family and, like, very, very best friends, like, in their backyard on Friday night. And then they just had the party Saturday night. And it was like a rave vibe. It was just like a dance party. There was pizza. It was, like, casual and really fun.

[Raina Greenberg]

I have to ask you for. So she. I knew it was a rave vibe. What instructions did she give you? Because if somebody had told me rave vibe, I would have shown up looking insane.

[Ashley Hess]

You would have nailed it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, but you wore, like, a normal.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, but I kind of have some regrets.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, but either outfit you wore were still things you could wear in public, and people would be like, she looks lovely. Yeah, I would have looked insane.

[Ashley Hess]

She admittedly was like, I gave y' all a tough dress code. And she did make mood boards.

[Raina Greenberg]

She did send the mood boards.

[Ashley Hess]

There was a Pinterest board, but. But she said, like, fancy festival. And so people went two different directions. I mean, I wore a dress that was, like, an ombre vibe. Like, I look back, and I'm like, that was the wrong fit. I should have worn something I already had. Like, we have plenty of these clothes, sequins and jumpsuits. And I just. People were there, and, like, damn, I should have dressed like that. Like, the vibe was just whatever. Whatever.

[Raina Greenberg]

But it was a wedding. Like, it's like, I threw this birthday party this summer, and it was like, a festival similar. I would not have known what to do because I was like. I would have shown up looking crazy at this wedding. You still wore, like, a wedding.

[Ashley Hess]

But I didn't need to.

[Raina Greenberg]

Were people's butts out? Jenny's outfit was great.

[Ashley Hess]

There were some butts out. It was. It was just a party. I mean, they had already gotten married the night before. So Jenny wore her wedding dress at the beginning of that, so you could see it. And then she changed into this, like, sequin look that was like something you'd wear to a live show costume. So I kind of wish you would have been there. I was just in Denver novel.

[Raina Greenberg]

I was gone for three days.

[Ashley Hess]

It was great. But you were missed and it was fun. So anyway, congrats to her and her husband Micah. And she still gets messages about coming on our show. And just one in particular she showed me that was like, I heard you on Girls Gotta eat. And I followed you ever since. And you've really showed me that you should never settle and fight. Wait till you find your person. And you know, I think about the guy Jenny was dating when she found out she had cancer. Just like the worst guy. She submitted him for the X game on at the bachelorette party. Like, imagine if she would have like been married to that fucking guy and gone through this with somebody like that. You know, she is the best, most supportive, most fun, most hot partner and she waited to find the right person. I just love the message.

[Raina Greenberg]

I love it. Also, as you're talking, I had this idea. Should we do a where are they now episode with our guests and they each has to send us like a three minute video about like what's up since they were on.

[Ashley Hess]

I love that.

[Raina Greenberg]

And then we just edit it together.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, we used to do where are they now for our crazy emails, like bunion girl and like foot job girl.

[Raina Greenberg]

And like your fiance was an email. Where are they now?

[Ashley Hess]

Mary. Mary Ashley Mary and their hall pass. Crazy. I like that idea. Yeah, we can do some guest updates.

[Raina Greenberg]

We'll think about this.

[Ashley Hess]

Someone's like, ah, hi, I'm in prison. Can you imagine? No, there's probably nobody.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, we have good guests.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

And we talk on them probably pretty publicly if they aren't good guests. Okay, well, let's just thank our partners and get our episode. I'm very, really, really. I'm very really. I'm really excited for this one. I, I loved Ingrid' book. I think it's just a really beautiful episode.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. So we will get into it with her. You guys are going to love it.

[Raina Greenberg]

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[Ashley Hess]

And early detection of anything. I mean, how many times not to get too dark is, you know, someone finds out they have something wrong with their health and it's like they wish they would have known years earlier, months earlier even sometimes, yes, I use this.

[Raina Greenberg]

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[Ashley Hess]

Okay. And this episode is also brought to you by Saks Fifth Avenue. We love Saks so much. I was just on their website looking. I've got to really limit myself though because I will just be like, I want everything.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, I'll replace my whole wardrobe.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes, you can replace your whole wardrobe. When we were talking about, about what to wear to a wedding, I mean any formal, semi formal fancy event, you have like head straight to Saks. But of course you can also get workout gear and work clothes and everyday items. They have so many designers that we love. So Alice, Olivia, obsessed from your Burberry to your Chloe to Gucci of course Miu Miu, Prada and then Veronica Beard. I mean they even have lower priced brands like a good American. They really have it all. And you can shop their site or you can of course go to the store, they have in store stylists and then of course online you can see the way that they style stuff and pair stuff. It's just a great shopping experience. I mean I'm on the site and I was just like, I really need everything. And right on the homepage you can see stuff that just went on sale. You can get first dibs on new markdowns. I'm just seeing things at so many different price points. Oh my God, this gorgeous toe. These Alice Olivia pants. They're on sale, half off. I'm gonna need those. Gonna throw those in the bag. These sandals, heels, I mean all the things. Okay, I need to stop. So we just, just really love sacks so much and we are so happy to have them as a partner. I want you guys to check them out. They have clothing for truly every occasion from a wedding to a workout and at various price points. So if you are like us and you are in your fashion era or you just need a closet refresh for fall, head to Saks Fifth Avenue or Saks.com to shop.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. And Smart Mouth. So if you are a coffee drinker.

[Ashley Hess]

You'Re a garlic lover or you're someone.

[Raina Greenberg]

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[Ashley Hess]

So I love this and I formerly was not really like a mouthwash person. My fiance is a mouthwash assistant. Oh really? Oh, he says mouthwash every time he brushes. And so we got a bunch of this and so I've started using it. I got him on it. He approves it. He's like mouthwash king. So if he approves, you know, it's fine by me. And I've been using it and I'm really into it too. It doesn't leave like this lingering aftertaste. I feel like that's why I haven't it liked mouthwash before. So I feel like this is just really like clean fresh. Doesn't leave that aftertaste. Except your mouth just feel obviously like super clean.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes, absolutely. It's like just so important. Who wants to roll around? Bad breath.

[Ashley Hess]

I know, it really is. I'm a believer.

[Raina Greenberg]

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[Ashley Hess]

Okay, let's get into it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, guys. We are very excited to welcome our guest today. She is a clinical psychologist, author, and trauma Expert with over 16 years of experience helping clients navigate the deep roots of relational trauma. Her new book, why the need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves and How to Find Our Way Back is Out now, which explores people pleasing as a survival response. Please welcome to the show, Dr. Ingrid Clayton.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Ashley Hess]

Welcome. Congrats on the book.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes, thank you so much. I love the barker's beauty reveal. That was good.

[Ashley Hess]

That's really all I do here. I'm just the Vanna White of the podcast.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Exactly.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, you did it really great. When you held it up, I was like, look at her go. And the COVID is beautiful, Ashley. And I love an ombre. Can't get enough of a pink to orange ombre.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Well, they did a great.

[Ashley Hess]

We've seen every book cover and we are really judgy. And so I'm just a real font slut. And I love the colors, everything about it. It's great.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

I'm so glad. Thank you.

[Raina Greenberg]

And the stuff in the book is fantastic. We're really excited to have you. You came to us recommended by Dr. Ram and Ervasla, who we've done several episodes on about specifically narcissism. And what she's done is pick like a very specific psychological term and made it her expertise. And you have done that with something else, which we'll unpack today. But the book was hard to read but a pleasure to read and really, really well done.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

So thank you for reading it and having me here.

[Ashley Hess]

Of course. So can we just talk a little bit about your background? You can start wherever you have a personal story as well, but also just this being your expertise. And was it always in the vein that we just talked about Dr. Ramani? Like, she chose the thing and then went for it. And I'm just curious how that came about with you.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Well, as you know, I start the book when I'm 13 years old in the hot tub with my stepfather. So I have been trying to unpack what I now know is is a chronic experience of the fawning trauma response my entire life, including getting three degrees in psychology. You know, next month, God willing, I'll be 30 years sober. I've done all the programs. I've read all the books. And there was something that was still keeping me so stuck. And when you've read all the books and taken the questionnaires and you still feel like it's just me, I'm the only one, it just kind of doubles down on the shame that you're holding, this feeling that it just must be me. I'm broken. And, you know, eventually in my private practice, I started to specialize in trauma, which led to working with complex trauma, which is synonymous with relational trauma or childhood trauma. And I still didn't think, you know, I was sharing with you a little bit before Raina. Like, I don't have trauma. My story's not that bad. There's this idea that trauma is specific to these concrete, you know, single incident events that everyone can agree is traumatic. And what we now know with complex trauma is that that is simply not true. And so, first, getting this introduction to complex trauma gave me a new lens on my own life. And then I wrote a memoir. Not by choice, but by deep calling, Deep Breakdown. And after five years of writing not just my childhood story, but all my dysfunctional relationships and all these patterns that I could not break free from, I could see my own story through a clinical psychologist's eyes. It's not like I wasn't sitting on a lot of therapy couches, because I was doing that too. But none of it had revealed to me what this process did. And so first with my memoir, I said, if I have all this knowledge and information, and I was still feeling so stuck, how many people are living this way? And, you know, then coming to find that big publishing wanted a book on fawning, and just my whole body lit up like nothing ever has. And I said, that's my book. That's my topic. So I come at it from this deep, deep lived experience, which I think, honestly is probably more important than my clinical experience. I feel like, yes, we have a lot of research to do, but you have to turn to the people that are living with the thing, whatever it is, I think, to really understand it. And so I turned to my practice. I have seven clients that I've been working with, you know, between one and 16 years in the book. And I said, would you be willing to share your experience on fawning? And they were so generous. They all said, yes, and it's my story, and it's their story, because it's time to finally have this conversation.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, thank you for sharing that. And we don't need to gloss over your story. I mean, we want everyone to read your book, of course, but it's essentially. I mean, it was grooming and I mean, child abuse, obviously it was tough to read. It's really just, you know, filled me with a lot of anger and, you know, and sadness for people who've experienced anything like that.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Do you feel like that was kind of the start of all this that led you into, like, dysfunctional relationships you talked about later? Like, that was really the catalyst.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes, because, you know, when we think about childhood in particular. So basically, you know, we're talking about fawning as a trauma response. And what most of us have known for a long time is fight, flight, and freeze. But if you think about childhood in particular, we need our caregivers longer than any other species. We are dependent on them. These are vital relationships in my personal experience and many of my clients. A fight response might not be available to you. Right. It's going to make things worse. A flight response. Where are you going to go? You're going to be brought right back to the scene of the crime, essentially. And so fawning became this way for me to navigate the daily, chronic, ongoing, pervasive experiences of not only threats to my sense of safety, but I had to maintain these relationships with these primary attachment figures. So fawning becomes this really genius, adaptive way to do that. And it can look like, on one hand, leaning in to sort of caretake. And like with my mom who was absent, I could sort of endow her with all this goodness. And if she could, she would. And maybe I can help her. And with my stepdad, you know, it was this, like, flirting and flattering and appeasing to try to keep him just at bay. Right. So I can maintain a sense of myself. So it looks different depending on the context, but it's essentially this shape shifting to manage the moods and states of those in charge.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm glad that you named it because I had such a light bulb moment when I was reading this because of course, if you depend on somebody for shelter and food, there's no fight and flight response.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Right.

[Raina Greenberg]

Of course. Like you said, where are you gonna go? You have to placate.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

And that's right.

[Raina Greenberg]

Of course, what you experience is child abuse. And it's hard to read. And you know, I really. Ashley and my. Our hearts broke to read what you experienced. But zooming out from that, lots of women feel like this. Minorities at times, you touch on lots of different categories of people that experience this. Where the Option isn't to not assimilate.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

That's right. That's right. I think it's all systems of power. Right. And so I really touch on that in fawning that again, if you think all of these survival responses or trauma responses, whatever you want to call them, they're based on what we know about the animal defenses. And so if you look in the animal kingdom, it's really obvious.

[Ashley Hess]

He knew that was coming.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

The animal kingdom, that. Right. The lion, the king of the jungle is entitled at the top of the food chain to having a voice and setting healthy boundaries. Right. This is my territory. But that our bodies know intuitively where we reside in that pecking order and that determines what responses are available. So yes, it's not just in childhood, but you think about patriarchy and people of color, all marginalized communities. You even think about people that are, you know, they're a religious community or like we need to affiliate. It might be your whole life that we're talking about. Right. Your identity is tied to these different places and spaces. You're not going to go against the grain because look, look at what you might be sacrificing. It could be everything. You're in a bind. Right. So the body has to choose. And often in these cases, it chooses a sense of safety and relationship over self.

[Ashley Hess]

So it really is the fourth response. Like when we have fight, flight, freeze, fawn.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

This is this one, that fourth F. Right. Cause there are, there are more. But I think these are sort of the biggies that, that, that we're speaking to now. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

And it just, if we're defining it just is to placate, to lean in, to almost appear that you are obviously fine or even enjoy what's happening, I.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Think that's a great way to explain it. It's the leaning in. And so in that way, it's the trauma response that hides in plain sight. Because it does look like, even to the person who's experiencing it, like, hey, how you doing? Right. I'm choosing to be here. I'm perfectly fine with what's happening. So the distinguishing factor between fawning and say, what we've called people pleasing or even codependency is that it is an unconscious reflex. Right. No one's choosing to do this. It's also why I started with that story of me being 13. I didn't choose to lean into relationship with my stepdad. I was almost witnessing it from practically an out of body place, like, wow, this is what's happening. And so when you say to People, well, just set a boundary. Right? Just grow your self esteem. You're using a very conscious, rational strategy that I would go, yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. Right. But it's not available to me. Sure.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's really reductive. And I think that people are so well intentioned when they say, why don't you draw a boundary? Why don't you explain how you're feeling, why don't you tell your other parent? And it's like, well, yeah, I tried all those things before I talked to you about that. And I do want to talk about later where this appears all the time, but women in the workplace with their bosses, how many women have been sexually harassed continuously and you're just going to go find another job? No, you let that person treat you like that. Or when I was growing up, a lot of people, especially in college, had never met another Jewish person and made a lot of jokes to me about it. And I chose to laugh at those things and joke around with it because I didn't feel unsafe. And so I was like, like it's easier to just go along with this and laugh about it. Looking back, I didn't really stand up for myself the way I wanted to. I assimilated.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Right?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. We were talking. I mean there's such a spectrum. There's of course a child abuse situation and feeling like you need to placate your stepfather who's abusing you and then there's laughing at a racist joke directed at you. We were talking about this someone that may grow up as a person of color in an all white community or, or they have all white friend groups. And you hear these remarks and I would hear this back especially more when I lived in Atlanta and you know, you would hear the person that was being targeted laugh along and then that makes all the white people think it's okay. And it's the same thing as you were saying with the Jewish jokes and you mentioned like what are you gonna do as a kid to fight or flight. But that almost feels like, I don't know, as an adult it's not so easy.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

That's right. That's right. Again, depending on where you are, right. In this sort of hierarchy of your life. And if your job is depend right to your point, it's like, I'm not going to look back at my boss and be like, what the hell are you doing? I need that paycheck. Right. So many vital relationships of our lives, that, that is survival. Right. Financial dependency is another aspect of survival. So it's Pretty pervasive when you think about all the systems that elicit a fawn response and quite frankly, that many of us were conditioned to have one, that it's sort of under the guise of respect. It's like, go along, get along and rush under the rug.

[Raina Greenberg]

Don't be the problem.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Don't be the problem.

[Raina Greenberg]

I didn't want to be like the angry Jewish girl that had a problem with everything.

[Ashley Hess]

I just laughed at it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, you know that's right.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. You can't joke around with her.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right, Right. She can't make a joke.

[Ashley Hess]

You know him. You can't make racist jokes at his expense.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

That's right.

[Ashley Hess]

You know him. It's crazy.

[Raina Greenberg]

So can we talk about. And we do want to talk about people pleasing today? Because that's probably what a lot of people relate to. But how does this differ from just like quote unquote, be nice or people pleasing?

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Well, I think it's the sense of agency so inherent in this reflexive response where now I have to orient to you. Right. Anything external, it's like, do you like me? Do you give me permission? Do you validate me? Are you taking care of me? The focus is completely outside of our own body. And the sad consequence of that is a disconnect from self. Essentially, it's self abandonment. So that's the differentiating factor. Am I showing up and am I compulsively volunteering and am I the friend that always does all the emotional labor and is happy to stay on the phone with you for three hours, but we never get back to me? Am I doing that because it's a conscious choice or am I doing that because the only safety and connection I've ever known has been to a degree where I don't really get to fully exist?

[Raina Greenberg]

Wow.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Unless I'm prioritizing someone else's needs. So I think it's conscious choice. There's nothing wrong with being kind and being of service. I'm never going to put those things down, but I think a lot of us don't know how those empathic and loving tendencies are being hijacked by a chronic trauma response.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. And like at the expense of your own self.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

That's right.

[Raina Greenberg]

So how does this kind of manifest in real life? What does this look like? How does somebody who's like fawning show up?

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

I think that it's. There's conflict avoidance. Right. Conflict feels like terror. So to step into healthy conflict, you need to have a healthy fight response to have a voice. But again, if it's like I don't really get to, to be in this relationship where it's reciprocal. I have to sort of shrink myself. We get small, we defer, you know, where do you want to go to lunch? No, Whatever, Right. There's this like sort of easygoing vibe that we can have, but then it can also look like it did for me for many years, which is dating the same person over and over with a different face and feeling like, why can't I have a healthy relationship to save, Save my life. You sort of see the red flags, but you paint them white a little bit. It's like it's going to get better any day now. I know. Maybe if I help them, if I hang in there, if I be more patient. Right. It's, it's those pieces and romantic relationships. So the thing to know is that fawning is context dependent. So that shape shifting notion is like I lean into whatever this relationship needs me to be. And it might be very different to what this relationship needs me to be.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm just curious, what were the patterns in the people you were dating that were the same? Like an avoidant or.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes, avoidant. Actively addicted. Okay, so it spanned a spectrum. So some were cheaters, some were liars, some were actively addicted. None of them really wanted to step into a commitment with me. And I stayed and I waited and I hoped until eventually they broke up with me. They couldn't get their financial lives together. Right. It's like I'm trying to get them into therapy and I'll pay for the therapy. It's like, you know, me just running circles around the dysfunction so the dysfunction could change. But my patterns were very similar.

[Ashley Hess]

Were you rejecting healthy options or just not seeking them out or finding them?

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Well, this is the tricky thing, is that I didn't have any chemistry with healthy options.

[Ashley Hess]

Got it. So not even, they weren't even on the table.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Not really. Because I believe, and this is the other thing I think the window into complex trauma gives us is that I believed what I was feeling, which now I know was unresolved. Trauma was healthy chemistry.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

And so I thought, well, you know, I can't manufacture chemistry with a healthy person. And you know, fast forward. Thank goodness I will have been married to my now husband for 11 years this month, I think current husband.

[Raina Greenberg]

Ashley one time said, my current fiance. And a few minutes later, later I was like, wait, what?

[Ashley Hess]

But it's a thing.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

But it's your first fiance.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's her first and only, but.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, is he not your first?

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

He is not My first.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, so you're part of the culture.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Keying up for the future.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. There's a comedian that does the current husband thing, and it's his first husband, too. It's just very funny. So we just flagged it. But anyway, so we don't want to cut you off. You've been with your current husband for.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes, yes.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

For 11 years. Married. And I have to say, when we met, I didn't have the. That crazy spark, that thing that was like, oh, it's on. And I'm so grateful that I had healed enough at that point that I was like, but I want to see you again. I want to spend time. And what I now know is that I was feeling at ease in his presence. I know it can make me cry. I could bring my full self. And I have never, not one time in all of these years felt unsafe or devalued or not absolutely treasured. There is no drama. There has never been drama.

[Ashley Hess]

It's the two things that we say over and over is feeling at ease, feeling at home. Not that nervous anxiety that people mistake for butterflies.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Right.

[Ashley Hess]

And then the only thing I say about seeing someone again is just that you want to see them like that.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

Just feel the next time to hang with them enough. Even if it wasn't the sparks you've come to expect and know it's just. Do you want to. To just hang out with him one more time?

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

That's magic.

[Ashley Hess]

Just to go for it.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

I've never heard anybody coin it as I didn't feel chemistry with a healthy relationship. And that is. That is just so true.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah. And I thought I couldn't manufacture it, so what choice did I have but to lean into the one where all my bells and whistles were like, okay, it's on. You know, and another merry go round. I went, well, thanks for sharing that.

[Ashley Hess]

This is the word dating podcast. We had to.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Oh, I want to unpack it more.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. We're just gonna take a quick break and then we get back into it. I am telling you guys about AG1 and something new that we haven't told you about before, and that is AGZ. So of course you have your morning routine with AG1. We are such big fans of doing this in the morning in a cup of ice cold water and really getting all your nutrients to start the day. But AGZ is a nightly drink that is going to help you wind down and rest up. AGZ is a melatonin free formula with clinically studied herbs. Adaptogens and minerals. So I think this is great. I mean, we've talked about nighttime routines and what's really gonna help you get relaxed before you get into bed and again help you wind down. And I think this is really great for that. I mean, no matter what your sleep is affected by. I've talked about my sleep journey a lot before. I really had trouble sleeping when I lived in Newark. It's improved in la, but I'm stressed a lot and I just stay up and tossing and turning sometimes at night. I mean, whether you're stressed at work, you're a parent, you're an athlete, I mean, whatever you have going on, sometimes it can affect your ability to wind down and your overall sleep quality can change. This can really improve it, help you sleep better and wake up more refreshed. So it has an herbal flavor and it's gonna help put you in the wind down mindset. There are no artificial flavors, artificial sweeteners, or added sugar. You can drink it with water or milk, warm milk before bed vibes. And you can replace your existing magnesium or other sleep supplements because it is an excellent source of magnesium. Each serving of AGZ delivers 250mg of highly bioavailable magnesium, providing over half of your daily value. So we would love you guys to check this out. We really think it's going to be such a game changer. And you can get that free frother because you can put this again in like a drink and make it kind of frothy and have like a nice little, I don't know, like treat yourself before bedtime. So if you are ready to turn down the stress and focus on the rest, head to drink ag1.com GGE to get a free frother with your first purchase of AGZ, that is drinkag1.com GGE to get a free frother with your first purchase of agz.

[Raina Greenberg]

And with prices going up on just about everything lately, you know who to blame. Dealing with money can be stressful. Trying to manage subscriptions, track spending and cut costs can feel overwhelming. Luckily, Rocket Money can relieve some of that stress and help you feel confident in the financial decisions you make. So Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitor your spending, and help lower your bills. You can grow your savings. I love Rocket Money. The interface is so easy to use. You get in there, they identify all the subscriptions that you were paying for. Tons of stuff you probably didn't know you were even paying for. They're gonna help you cancel those if you want. They're gonna show you all your expenses laid out. And so many people say, how do I take care of my personal finances? The episode we had with Tori Dunlap was so fantastic, and people really gravitated towards that. This is a fantastic first step to just seeing it all laid out in one dashboard. And you can figure out what your goals are, what you wanna save for. And Rocket Money can even help negotiate lower bills for you. And you'll get get alerts as bills increase in price. Rocket Money's 5 million members have saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, with member savings up to 740 a year when you use the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com GGE today, that's RocketMoney.com GGE RocketMoney.com GGE okay, so Zebiotics.

[Ashley Hess]

Zebiotics pre alcohol probiotic. I use this, and I think about this a lot. Like, even if I just have like a drink or two too, I just wake up and I don't feel 100.

[Raina Greenberg]

I know. We talk about it all the time.

[Ashley Hess]

I know. So, you know, I really am a moderate drinker, but I was at this wedding this past weekend and drank more than I typically would. And I took my Zbiotics and, you know, it really did help the next morning. But, you know, I think that we all can kind of relate to just not feeling great the morning after a night out. So. Zebiotics pre alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Because when you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. And it's buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for your rough days after drinking. So the pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. You just have to remember to take it the first drink of the night. So it's this little vial. You just throw it back. Yeah, it's really cute. They're easy to travel with. You can drink responsibly and you feel your best the next day. So fall is right around the corner. So that means it's time to raise a glass to your favorite team. And all the fall activities, whether you're tailgating, enjoying a college game day, watching Sunday's action on your fancy new tv, don't forget zebiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic Drink Drink a pre alcohol before drinking and enjoy great days after celebrating all season long. Go to zebiotics.com GG to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use GG at checkout. Zebiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to ZBiotics.com GG and use the code GG at checkout for 15% off off. Thank you Zeb addicts for sponsoring this episode and our good times.

[Raina Greenberg]

So your story, you know, you talk about getting sober. You got a psychology degree, you got certifications, but like these problems were still there. And so there's like a term in AA called a dry drunk. Somebody that gets sober, but they haven't like healed the issues that made them become an addict. Become an addict to begin with. And you really did all the things you're supposed to in quotes do, which is it sounds like you got therapy, you got a therapy degree.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

You got sober and the problems were still sort of there.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

And so like, what did that journey from then to finding this really solid partner look like?

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Well, I see this with my clients a lot. They have equally done all the things they tell me, their attachment style. Right. They break out like an entire resume about everything that they've done to sort of heal themselves. But just like them, I was doing those things to almost become a different version of me. I was doing those things to override my wounding, my experiences. So if we look at my history, I was essentially not seen, not taken care of. Right. Worth is the wound. Okay. And this is so true for many of us. So if I don't feel worthy out of the gates, well, I need to go and make myself worthy. And so we pursue self help and therapy and all of these things as though it's going to render us one day worthy. And when we do that, we're perpetuating the same problem. Does that make sense? Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

You wrote in the book that often people that grew up fawning present as really high functioning and they're very successful because they've thrived in other areas of their life.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Right.

[Ashley Hess]

And I was curious, even this may resonate with audience and just in general, your personal experiences with clients.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Are you talking to clients? And they're having a light bulb moment that they're even doing this, the bonding, like they wouldn't thought.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Thought that they were 100%, most of my clients don't come to me, or they didn't historically, saying, ingrid, I. I have unresolved complex trauma, and I'm stuck in a chronic fawn response. Right? They came because they had dysfunctional relationships, or they wanted to date, but they couldn't date. Or, you know, a host of other things. And when I present to them this paradigm, they go, okay, I can, you know, start to see myself. But it can be a tough sell, I think, a. Because the language of trauma and people say, well, I don't wanna apply that to my own life. And I can understand that to a degree.

[Raina Greenberg]

And you say people rank their trauma and they say, I didn't have this event, so I wasn't traumatized. Yes.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

My story's not that bad. Ingrid, you know, I was saying to you that people can point to the book. And you were both so kind to say, like, it was hard to read my story. But I guarantee you, for decades, I was like, my story's not that. My story's nothing compared to so many other people. Right? We do. We have this trauma measuring stick around. Is my story bad enough? And it's also why it's important to name. Trauma doesn't happen based on the story at all. Trauma happens based on overwhelm in our nervous system. It's not dependent on this experience or that experience. Ten different people can experience the same exact thing. We see this in family systems all the time. Some people come out traumatized and some people do not. Right? So we gotta take the emphasis off the story. But once you do start to give people this understanding of, like, even pursuing therapy with this idea, like, I have all the answers, and Fauna's want me to like them as clients.

[Ashley Hess]

Right? Okay.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Fauna's are like, am I your favorite? Right. Tell me I'm kind of your favorite client. Right? And I know this, too, from being a client in therapy.

[Ashley Hess]

I know. That's the tell right there.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

That's the tell.

[Raina Greenberg]

Damn it. That is my. I. I would walk into therapy, like, I don't even know what you're gonna tell me. I'm gonna win.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

That's exactly.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm so healed already, I barely even know what you're gonna tell me. Cause I'm awesome.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

I present a client in the book who said that. And he's this phenomenal, very successful lawyer, partner in a firm. And he was like, ingrid, I think I'm trying to win therapy. Like, I want you to tell me what to do. I'm gonna go and do it. I'm gonna come back and Tell you that I did it for the pat on the head. And I was like, so you're kind of missing in the. In this whole equation. It's just about pleasing me. I wonder what it would be like if you weren't missing in your own life. And it was like, I'm missing in my own life. I don't even like my job. I have no hobbies. I'm not leaning into dating. It sort of was. It opened up this whole world that he'd been performing. Right. Also a big fauna trait. Curating a life.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Rather than inhabiting and living it.

[Ashley Hess]

And what a waste of your money.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Come on, let's go have some fun. Oh, it's so true. Yeah, it's so true.

[Ashley Hess]

But actually not being healed just to be performing.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

But we don't know that we're performing. Right. But this is the other reason why I want, you know, hopefully clinicians to read the book, because we can feel as clinicians like we're doing a great job.

[Ashley Hess]

But can't you tell? Like, you're.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

I mean.

[Ashley Hess]

No, you really. Okay.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Most therapists still do not have this language and this framework to even be curious.

[Ashley Hess]

Just this type of person you're talking about. I feel like we've known people like that. We've been on dates with these people that, you know, when you see it, you're not living in your own truth. You don't know who you are.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

I think you're right. And it's a spectrum, like most things, Right. So you can really identify. Absolutely. I can identify sometimes on the initial phone call, right. I'm like, okay, I know the work that we're going to be doing here, But I know even for myself as a client in therapy over the years, Right. I would be the one who. My therapist would be like, okay, can you try to do whatever this intervention is in the session? And they're like, ingrid, just close your eyes and do this thing. And I would close my eyes, and what I'm literally thinking is, how long do I have to do this? Until they feel like I've tried their intervention.

[Ashley Hess]

Totally.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

But I hate this. I don't want to do this.

[Ashley Hess]

This.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Right. And I didn't want them to be mad at me or think that I wasn't willing to try. Right. All these other things. And I was convincing. I know that I was. And now I know that my job is partially to disappoint my therapist. Right. And I do now, my therapist, Holly, if she told me, like, ingrid, go inside and close your eyes. And I'D be like, holly, I hate this right now.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like that's doesn't feel good.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes, it's night and day. It's night and day.

[Ashley Hess]

Interesting. Yeah.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Or because here's the truth. If we're talking about moving from a life of disconnection to self, gosh, this makes me emotional. For me to identify first, just identify. I hate this. Something is coming up in me. And then to be able to say it out loud to another person that I feel like I'm disappointing, you can see why that is. The miraculous moment that starts to change your life in therapy is to say, I hate this. Because my therapist is a trauma therapist and she can go, okay, can we notice that? Can we notice that? Can we notice what that feels like in your body? I wonder if it makes you think of anything else. Right. And then we're off to the races.

[Raina Greenberg]

It makes me think of also your childhood. And where this comes from is you. You told your parent, you told your mother what was happening and she invalidated you.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

And she robbed you of a sex of feeling safe and heard and understood. And so of course that manifests in a. I don't want to tell people what's really going wrong because they'll invalidate me. And I'm not used to being told that I'm right. And so I'm just going to do my best to be as good as I am. As good as I am. But it's hard to tell people you're letting me down or I hate this completely.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

I think it also leads to that other point of that sort of high functioning presentation. And it's like, well, because we have to be that self reliant, you know, I can't count on you or you or you. I've got to figure it out. And so we do. Right? And in a way that's amazing and it's resilient, but it's also fricking lonely and sad. Right. We're not having real relationships from that place. So I want us to have self reliance, but I also want us to feel like we can be a little bit safer in the world.

[Ashley Hess]

This is a little off track, but I'm just really curious, with your current husband, did you have any blips as you were getting into a relationship with him where you wanted to run? Yeah.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. Because it felt healthy.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

It felt healthy. And I was pretty hyper vigilant because I'm like, I had been married before and it went horribly, you know, bad. It was over within a year and a half and I Found all the hidden vodka bottles in the closet that I didn't know were there. But I also knew exactly where to look. So I was looking for the red flags before Yancy and I got married. And listen, he's a whole human being. He has flaws. Similarly, we're on a journey. But what I discovered in that is when I brought my concerns to him, he did not gaslight me. He did not say, oh, that's a you problem. Right. He didn't say, I don't know what you're talking about. He goes, oh, yeah, that makes sense that you would feel that way. He was right. Whoa. He was willing to take personal responsibility. And he's like, I'm in no rush. Whatever you need. I mean, I get goosebumps. Like, paradigm shift. Right. And then I have a lovely mentor who, at the time I brought my concerns to. His name is Bill. And Bill said, ingrid, you've always worked so hard to make the wrong person right, and now you're trying real hard to make the right person wrong.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm gonna burst into tears. That is, like, such an amazing quote. I feel like it's gonna hit people in the heels. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. How many people have been just had the moment of. I've been doing that my whole life.

[Raina Greenberg]

Every second of this interview.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, yeah, Right. Now, can we go back to your light bulb moment?

[Raina Greenberg]

Do you wanna share? Well, I do wanna just also share. Like, you know, I wrote, I took a lot of notes, obviously, from your book. But, you know, one of the things you talk about is apologizing to those who have hurt us. And it sounds like your current husband doesn't make you do that anymore. Like, you say, you've hurt me, and his response is, let's talk about it.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

That's right.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm sorry.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

That's right.

[Ashley Hess]

You're wrong.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

That's right. Or deep curiosity. Right. And one of my favorite things that my husband, Yancey, says is there are no shoulds in this family. And he really means it. Like, he doesn't have to be a particular way. I don't have to be a particular way. There is room for, you know, two and now three, because my son just turned 10 this weekend, all three of us, to be whole people. It is profound. It's so different.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. It must just feel really different to be able to, like, say, I feel this thing and not feel like you're gonna be, like, ripped apart.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah. And the scary things, the scary, dark things. Right. Like, we're talking about even saying the simple things were Hard. And so now pulling on the really hard stuff and having equal room to be able to talk about it, there are no words. The gift that that gives to me as someone who will be continually healing for the rest of my life, I.

[Raina Greenberg]

Relate to this as somebody who grew up feeling invalidated a lot.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

And it very much manifested in my conflict style and not telling people that they were hurting me or upsetting me or bothering me. And it would make me. We used to talk about this more in earlier days of the podcast because I think I've worked really hard to change. And my relationship with Ashley has done that, my relationship with my brother has done that. And people saying to me, like, you avoid talking to me when you're upset, and it makes me feel like you don't love me or care. I just. My brother said that to me one day, and he was like, you just. You're mad at me about something and you just stop talking to me. And really, like, I would just be really upset and feel like if I told him something, it would be invalidated, and that's not what he ended up doing. So it's been a life of, you know, trying to unweave that and be really comfortable with conflict. And I am now, I'm proud to say. Like, I. Oh, yeah. She's like. She loves conflict.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, it's just. I mean, we've been together doing this for eight years, and we both changed and grown a lot.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Wow.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm.

[Raina Greenberg]

She's become less reactive, oriented. I've become more conflict.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

But the thought of somebody saying to me that I was. I always try to make people happy around me. And I want. I mean, everybody does. Wants the people around you to feel good, like you care about you. But hearing that I was doing something that I didn't realize I was doing was the worst thing I could hear. And knowing that I had, like, upset somebody and I didn't realize it and bringing an issue to somebody and feeling like they were gonna tell me that I was an idiot or that that didn't really happen. It was so terrifying to me.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

And now, I don't know. I just. I feel like I've just grown bit a little through this podcast, through Ashley, through our guests, all kinds of people. But I'm not scared to hear that I did something. Cause I know I can apologize and wear somebody out. I'm not afraid to say how I feel. And I do wrestle with that still my whole life. I don't want to pick every battle, but I feel like I'M the architect of the people in my life. And I feel like people in my life are people that I can say, this bothered me and they're not going to attack me.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

And so, you know, both of those things.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

That's incredible. I love that. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

People who are fawners or people pleasers. Do you feel as though narcissists and manipulators and gaslighters sense that and seek it out even. But I feel like even I know that when people are like this and I'm not trying to take advantage of them, but you can sense it and you know how far you can push it and, you know, you don't have to validate them like on the. It's a sick thing to talk about, but it's a match because. Because they've been sought out. Because that narcissistic. Not everybody's narcissist. We know that it's way overused, but that archetype knows that they can railroad you.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. I think that that's such a fair point to make. And at the same time, I even want to say that, listen, I wasn't seeking out avoidant narcissists, actively alcoholic people, but because my trauma response developed while literally my body and brain were developing, my own sense of safety was forged in the face of exploitation. So it's important to name. And it's part of the reason that I reenacted my trauma so many times. The safest I ever felt was when I was exploited. I didn't know safety outside of that. So that's part of that chemistry that I was talking about. It was like, oh, I know how to navigate this kind of a situation. Right. But yes, I think it's this common pairing. It's the Beauty and the beast scenario. We get small and we couple in all kinds of different ways. Mentors, friendships, you know, romantic relationships with people that like to take up all the room. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

So another way this manifests and I want to, like, talk about it with you is like, so I have a friend, she's so wonderful, but self identifies as a people pleaser. And she'll say something to me all the time, like, they keep bothering me to go to this thing and I really don't want to go. But then she'll just go. And I'm like, then don't go. And she'll be like, they want advice for me. They want to get me on the phone and talk about this. And I don't feel like it. And I'm like, then don't do it. But she really has a need to. And it's a beautiful thing about her. And I love her, but like, to make people feel really comfortable around her. And I think sometimes she finds herself, like, agreeing to stuff she doesn't want to do and placating people she doesn't want to placate. Or even, I think she's grown from this point, but, like, having friendships with people that she felt like aren't good for. They're not nice to me, they're not good for me. So, like, is that people pleasing? Is it fawning? I guess you'd need more context, but I'm sure that's identifiable to some people.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah, I think it's very. A common presentation. And you know, for me, I guess in a way, I think people pleasing is just a flavor of the fawn response. It's one of the symptoms of fawning. I don't really differentiate them except to say that fawning includes our physiology and the context. Whereas the language of people pleasing, it sort of felt like this. Like, why would you do that? Why don't you just say, no, just don't do the phone call. Right. So for me, I can't really think of, maybe you can help me but think of a people pleasing scenario where I go, yeah, it's not necessarily attached to a fawn response, but as you give this example of her, I can't help but think of you saying, moments before, I used to feel terror. Like, that's the word that you used in terms of conflict. And that is the most real and resonant, I think, word that we can use. So slowing things down for anybody who's in that thing where it's like, ugh, they're asking me again and I don't want to go. Instead of like, just, well, then don't go. Why would you go getting curious and slowing it down? I wonder what you think would happen if you didn't. And would you be willing even just to sit with that feeling for a moment and notice what you notice? There's a reason in every trauma training I've ever done that we talk about what we're experiencing using, well, experiential language. What are you noticing right now? What are you experiencing? We don't say, what do you think about that? Because everyone goes, yeah, why would you do that? That. But when you move it into someone's body, what do you. What are you noticing right now? You could even say, I know for me, I used to feel terror. I Wonder if you notice any of that. Not that you become their therapist, but I'm just saying it's a way to open up the conversation instead of doing it right or doing it wrong into creating more space for the person who is automatically self abandoning.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's interesting because as you're saying this, I recall my own example 10 minutes ago of like, when people are like, like, why don't you just set a boundary? Like, I thought of that. So, like, when I say to her, like, why don't you just not go?

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, she's probably like, yeah, that's occurred to me. That's not an option for me.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

You have more agency now. But we forget what it was like when we didn't.

[Ashley Hess]

But I'd be so curious of what it would feel like because to me it's relief. It's, I don't want to go and I'm not going. But to her is it, they're mad at me. I'm not valuable anymore to them. No one's thinking of me. I mean, some of it's just rooted as something as like fomo, you know, for just that, like where literally I'm.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, oh, it feels like great.

[Ashley Hess]

I love that. That's probably not what she's.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Not what she's experiencing.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

She would sit home and be anxious about it and not relax. Like, the alternative is just to go and be there as opposed to sitting with, what am I missing? And are people talking about me kind of spiraling when. That's not true.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

But I think you named it exactly. Which is that anxiety. So a lot of faunas are very anxious. Right. But we don't know that we're anxious because we're so focused on what you're feeling and what you're doing and what you need. So when you slow it down and get curious, that's an opportunity to notice the anxiety. Right. I've seen that a million times on my therapy couch. It's sort of like people have said to me, oh, no, I'm not anxious. And then they come to know I am so anxious. I didn't know that I was anxious all the time.

[Raina Greenberg]

She knows she's anxious.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm imagining her listening to this crack on. No question.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

No question.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm the most anxious on a scale of one. To her, she's the top.

[Raina Greenberg]

But she, you know, it manifests in great ways. It makes her like the best friend and she's never met a stranger. Like, everybody loves her, every man falls in love with her, everybody wants to be her. Friend. Friend. Yeah, that. That feeling of anxiety. And, like, Ashley said, like, I. I love saying no to stuff. It feels great. One time I saw this meme, and it said something like, I tell people I don't want to do stuff. Not. I don't make any lie anymore. It just says, like, I just don't.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

I don't want to do it.

[Raina Greenberg]

I was like, oh, I could do that. That's crazy. Well, Ashley always volunteers my house for people to stay at. People always want to stay with me. I have extra bedrooms.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I'm doing it. She bought your new fancy house. I don't do it anymore.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, well, we have conflict, Bender. We didn't. But I feel comfortable telling people. I had a girlfriend asked me if she could stay with me for, like, a week and a half. I said, you could stay with me for a couple days. I don't want that. Like, I don't feel obligated to say yes to that.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

That's so amazing.

[Raina Greenberg]

But it's a lifetime of work. I'm 40. I didn't wake up and decide to do this one day, you know?

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

But I think the other piece that maybe is important for people to hear is that often we don't start to pivot in the relationship itself by, like, saying no to the thing that's terrifying to say no to to. You do it in the privacy, even of your own home, of going, what am I afraid would happen if I did say no? And you feel the anxiety, and you feel the terror. And half of our work, more than half of the work, is learning to stay present to this level of discomfort, learning to be in this different relationship with self. It's almost like, oh, I've got you. I know. It's terrifying. I have got you, right? There's this magical thing that happens. I've seen it with problems, probably every client I've worked with, where we suddenly realize, I'm the one I've been waiting for, right? I'm the one, not you, to make it safe for me. Not the perfect relationship to make it safe for. I have to make it safe for me. And that means staying present with the anxiety or the discomfort, whatever it is, and learning to tolerate more and more of it so that you can say, I don't want to. I just don't want to go. I don't want you to stay with me without feeling that overwhelm.

[Ashley Hess]

It's interesting, the emotions that feel comfortable and safe and the ones that they don't feel like we were talking about a girlfriend who has Been in this long term, really volatile relationship and it's so unstable and it would give me so much anxiety, I wouldn't be able to ever relax or sleep at night and I would never do it. But I think she'd rather keep that going than sit with herself and feel any sort of loneliness or sadness. She'd rather feel the like elevated craziness.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Right.

[Ashley Hess]

And it's so unrelatable to me.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Right.

[Ashley Hess]

I'd rather be sad, be lonely, work through it and move out of that chaos.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

And it's just interesting the way people feel where they're comfortable and not.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

But I would say, I don't know that it's a rather this or that. I mean, I'm imagining anyway. It's not like they have a map of your experience in their body where they're like, yeah, right. And so that paradigm does not even exist. That's what unfawning essentially is, is we're building that capacity that you have. It sounds like inherently to go. That would be so unsettling to me. Right. That would not feel safe.

[Ashley Hess]

And I've been in a relationship like that and it was awful. It's not like I would never. I was in one and I would never want to go back.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Generally speaking, I just think it's useful to name that this is what we're starting to build and that you've had an opportunity to build and you've had. And you know, me too. But it's literally this bottom up foundational experience that we're trying to cultivate within ourselves. It's major. It's like major reconstruction.

[Ashley Hess]

So I feel like we are in this topic of breaking this cycle.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Can we dive in deeper into how can we unfawn?

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah. Well, you know, I think in a way it's tricky that I'm using that language of fawning and unfawning because it sounds like I'm perpetuating this binary idea that like you're doing it right or wrong or you're healed or unhealed.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

And actually unfawning to me is a radical paradigm shift of saying, I'm always going to have a body. I'm always going to have a body that's living in context. Right. With different relationships and different things going on. So I'm always going to have trauma responses. I'm grateful for them. I'm grateful in the beginning of that book when I'm sitting in that hot tub that I had a fawn response to come and save the day. Right. So we're not getting rid of these things. They are life saving. What we're doing is saying, we don't need to live there 247 in survival mode. Survival mode means we are not connected to our fullest sense of self. And I don't know what people's context of their actual lives are. It might not actually be safe to be like, well, let me tell you how I really feel about that, you know, so that what. What I'm inviting is sort of just an expansion of your current level of capacity to feel all the tough stuff so that we can have more conscious choice and agency than we've ever had before. And one of the ways that we do that. We've talked about it a little bit, is the slowing down and getting curious, right? What would I feel if I felt like I was allowed to eat? Even feel it? Like we have to give ourselves so much permission because it's reflexive. It's like, what do you mean? This is how I feel. Okay, well, what if there was another part of you that felt differently? Or is there another part of you that feels differently? So it's creating more space, internal and external. Sometimes that space might be like, well, have you ever gone on a hike by yourself and let your mind wander and notice what you're actually thinking or feeling like a lot of people? The answer is no, I don't feel safe to be by myself out in the world. Right? So we're creating more of a sense of safety and autonomy. It's a big piece of it. And then the other thing, you know, there's a reason that I start the book with my story and that I end the book basically saying, and I also don't have all the answers. Is the. That I'm wanting to adjust this paradigm of, like, I'm the expert, and you come to me and you talk to me for 50 minutes a week, and I'm gonna sort of magically unpack all of this for you. It's like, no, no, no, no. I'm a person. Even the therapy relationship becomes much more reciprocal and collaborative and more like peer to peer, because I'm wanting people to step into their own sense of agency and autonomy so that they can say to me, oh, Ingrid, I hated what you just said, or you said that thing last week, and it drove me n nuts. Right? So I'm trying to also impart that in the book, that these are ways in which we don't have to live terrified all the time.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think that, yes, you want to give solutions to people about how to change. But I think even naming the behavior can be really profound for a lot of people. And you talking about people that want to like, win therapy and they don't even realize that. And I think that can be like a real watershed moment for people when they say, like, everybody, everything's, everything's great. I'm appearing, you name it.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

But even winning your relationship or winning at work, I think you definitely see this in romantic relationships. Someone who doesn't want to rock the boat and is in that people pleaser and is just trying to be the perfect partner and not really ever expressing how they truly feel or being vulnerable. And it's a sad relationship to be in. And your book is obviously going to probably open a lot of people's eyes and give them hope also. And I like that you're not saying, like, you're a fawner and we need to cure you. Yeah, it's a slow process and it's just incremental changes and it will just gradually improve your life. There's nothing wrong with you, obviously. I think we've made that clear.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes. I think that was tricky writing a self help book when they're like, ingrid, make it more prescriptive and give us 10 tips. And I'm like, this doesn't really work that way. In fact, now I'm gaslighting the reader because I'm saying I'm not gonna say something if I think that it's a lie. I lived in that for so long. Oh, you have all the answers and you did those 10 things and now you feel fixed. And so what's wrong with me? So I'm saying I'm not going to buy into that paradigm. And it's also why I teach through personal story and lived experience, because it expands the lens much bigger. I mean, it's not as easy to talk about as the 10 pithy things that people want to hear. It's not a great sales pitch. Right.

[Ashley Hess]

Like it's, we're human, there's nuance. We don't roll like that. We'd probably be a lot more popular if we did.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, every video on TikTok. Five ways to stop being gaslit.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yes. Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

And you know, that stuff does really well. That's the type of content that's really easy to digest and it's for stupid people. No, I'm kidding. No, that stuff's good too. Don't clip me saying that.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

There's a place for it, but it's not a panacea. And I think we Pretend that it is. Yeah, I know.

[Raina Greenberg]

So I think even like understanding that you do this is a real watershed moment. And then, and like somebody, for example, that says yes to everything and doesn't want to, if you could just give them the exercise of like just one time say no. Just one.

[Ashley Hess]

Just start imagining saying no.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

That's right.

[Ashley Hess]

That's the first step is how would it feel to say no?

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, back up. Feel, feel it. And then like, I guess you have to identify what's the worst thing that could happen if you say no. Is everybody going to hate you? Are there examples of people in your life that do say no to? Does everybody hate them? No, I say no to everything.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

And everybody loves a common thing. So I can give you a quick little like snippet of what might happen. Right. So rather to your point. Yes. I wouldn't say, well, just say no to somebody. I would say, what does it feel in this moment? Even the idea of you saying no. And a couple of things might happen. One is a sensation. And I go, great, can we be present with what's happening in your body, whatever it is, and we can move it somatically or from a parts work perspective. Someone goes, oh my gosh, I can see my 5 year old self trying to say no and I got steamrolled or something happened and a memory comes and then we can, in that moment, can you be with that five year old part of you right now? And we're literally healing that terror and that panic that we're still holding. It's so visceral, it comes back immediately. And it's not like people are saying, oh yeah, I always connect with the 5 year old self in that one moment. These are moments sometimes that shock and surprise people. The clarity with which the moments can come back where they've been triggered and they've remained triggered for decades sometimes. So this is the work. It's not about going out in the world and doing it differently and then beating yourself up when you didn't. Because come on, it's so simple. It's like, can I go internal? Can I go inward? Can I be present to all of me? And then what magically happens is there's more of us to be present in all of our relationships. Right. But that's the order that has to happen in otherwise it's re traumatizing.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, all right, so don't do what I said.

[Ashley Hess]

This is like when you said, what? Bring up something you do or don't. Like in the bedroom during sex.

[Raina Greenberg]

I was during the COVID quarantine. And it was a weird time.

[Ashley Hess]

And wasn't Dr. Emily, like, I would not.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

I.

[Ashley Hess]

Actually, that's the opposite of what I would read.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, you learned it was during the quarantine. Yeah. And, yeah, Emily Morrison was like, oh, don't do that.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Oh, don't do that.

[Ashley Hess]

We learn stuff every day. We're different people than we were last week. Well, thank you so much for this. This was a wonderful discussion.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Thank you.

[Ashley Hess]

And the book is out now.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yay.

[Raina Greenberg]

So.

[Ashley Hess]

And then tell everyone else where they are. They can find you, follow you.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Yeah, I'm on all the places and spaces. I think it's all at Ingrid claytonphd. But that's all on my website, which is just IngridClayton.com, so. Great.

[Raina Greenberg]

Site is great. And your book is really important for anybody who has felt this way.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Thank you so much.

[Raina Greenberg]

I really encourage people to buy it.

[Dr. Ingrid Clayton]

Thank you, Vanna.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes. And you guys know where to find us. Girls gotta eat.com, girls gotta eat podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess. Rainasraina Greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend and we will see you next time.

[Raina Greenberg]

Have a good week, guys.

[Ashley Hess]

Bye.