What is Healthy Dependency in a Relationship and How Do We Find It? with Nedra Tawwab

Summary

Girls Gotta Eat Podcast Summary

Episode: What is Healthy Dependency in a Relationship and How Do We Find It?
Guest: Nedra Glover Tawwab
Hosts: Ashley Hesseltine & Rayna Greenberg
Date: February 2, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Ashley and Rayna welcome back beloved guest, therapist and bestselling author Nedra Glover Tawwab, for an in-depth, candid, and often hilarious conversation about healthy dependency in relationships. Nedra unpacks her upcoming book The Balancing Act, explaining how we can navigate between independence and connection—personally, romantically, and within friendships— without losing ourselves or becoming over-boundaried. The trio dives into codependency, enmeshment, and how to build meaningful villages, all with practical advice and their signature blend of insight and humor.

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Episode Structure & Key Segments

1. Opening Banter & Catch-Up (00:27–16:00)

• Casual updates, hilarious text miscommunication story, thoughts on modern texting etiquette, and audience engagement questions.
• Notable comedic segment: Rayna receives a series of breakfast-related texts from a guy she dated 15 years ago, eventually realizing he thinks she’s his kid’s school. The hosts riff on how to send a “wrong number” text kindly.

Memorable Quote:
Rayna (16:27): “I’ve never seen you try to do this. You’re trying to keep the mic between your tits. Raina’s titty fucking the mic while she texts this guy back. Lol.”
(Ashley, 16:39)

2. Listener Email: Early Birds v. Night Owls in Relationships (17:31–27:53)

• Audience question: Is it wrong for one partner to be a morning person and the other to sleep in?
• Hosts and Nedra discuss if this is a real problem or just a normal compatibility issue.
• Advice: Reframe solo morning time as beneficial; don’t expect total similarity but focus on overall compatibility and respect.

Insightful Moment:
Ashley (22:17): “He can totally be a person that loves life. He just wants to start life at 10am. Like, it doesn’t necessarily mean that.”

3. Introducing Nedra Glover Tawwab: Her Impact & New Book (33:16–34:49)

• Warm introduction and genuine appreciation for Nedra’s prior influence—her work on boundaries cited as life-changing for both hosts and listeners.
• Nedra introduces The Balancing Act as an integration of boundaries with healthy dependency—a timely pivot toward relational balance.

Nedra’s Core Message:
Nedra (34:51): “There are actually healthy ways to be dependent… We are in a loneliness epidemic… I want to help people feel better connected without the stress of ‘I don’t know how I’m going to be in this relationship because I either go in with no boundaries or I’m codependent.’ You can do it, I’m rooting for you.”

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Main Discussion & Key Insights

4. Setting Boundaries: Healthy v. Over-Boundaried (36:29–43:41)

• Discussion of the “everyone wants a village, but no one wants to be a villager” paradox.
• Nedra explains that while boundaries are powerful, people sometimes overcorrect (become “over-boundaried”), leading to missed connections and loneliness.
• Shows the difference between an actual boundary (a need to safeguard well-being), a preference, and an excuse for bad behavior.

Advice:
If you can’t make a friend’s event, communicate clearly and make reparative gestures (e.g., offer to celebrate another time).
Nedra (38:48): “You have to keep your people in the fold. You have to keep them in the loop. These are not toxic relationships.”

Memorable story:
Nedra describes a friend who always “was on her way” but never showed—eventually losing her invite privilege, leading to a direct (but non-relationship-ending) conversation.

5. Healthy Dependency, Codependency, & Enmeshment (43:42–56:10)

• Healthy Dependency: Leaning on others appropriately and maintaining give-and-take in relationships.
• Codependency: Originating from addiction recovery circles, it means “helping in a counterproductive way,” enabling another’s unhealthy patterns, or being unable to set necessary limits.
• Enmeshment: Blurring of boundaries in relationships (e.g., family, close friends), which only becomes problematic when someone wants to pull away or when a third party is affected (think partner with clingy parent).

Nedra’s Definition of Codependency:
Nedra (44:07): “When you are helping in a counterproductive way to another person, there is some emotional tie that really gets in the way of your growth and the other person’s growth.”

Enmeshment Example:
Nedra (46:20): “It’s not until one of the folks decides, I want something different… and it’s like, what am I watching?”

The Risk of Hyper-Independence:
Nedra (47:31): “When we do not accept help, we do not ask for help… When you actually need someone, you struggle to find anybody because you have disconnected so much.”

6. Codependency & Attachment Styles (54:50–56:10)

• Attachment styles are fluid—not fixed. The same person can show up differently depending on their partner or friendship context.
• Anxious attachments may lean codependent; avoidants may lean hyper-independent.
• Self-awareness and relationship reflection crucial for finding a healthy middle ground (“secure attachment”).

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Practical Strategies & Real-Life Applications

7. How to Maintain Independence within Healthy Dependency (56:11–63:11)

• Advice for not “losing yourself” in a relationship, even when routines become comfortable.
• Proactive suggestions: Schedule solo time, see friends, maintain hobbies/activities separate from your partner.
• Lifelong friendships and romantic relationships thrive on both togetherness and separate interests.

Inconvenience as Necessary in Real Relationships:
Nedra (64:42): “A part of most relationships is inconvenience. If you’re not being inconvenienced, you might be the problem.”

8. Changing Friendship Seasons & Making Space for New Dynamics (66:51–68:38)

• Friendships may shift to “once-a-year” or “check-in-texts-only” phases without ending.
• It’s important to seek out new connections if the old ones don’t meet your needs for a certain kind of companionship or support, especially during different life stages.

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9. Family Enmeshment, Parental Dependency, and Setting New Norms (69:42–77:27)

• Childless friends, friends with kids, and matched/unmatched expectations in friendships.
• Navigating family enmeshment in dating—curiosity first, gentle questions about parental roles, avoiding judgment.
• Handling friends or partners who are “always attached”—when it’s healthy, when it’s a red flag.

Healthy Approach Advice:
Nedra (76:25): “Tread lightly… you have to really get into the system to understand what that is. Sometimes our initial reaction—especially if you’re hyper-independent—is to see family closeness as a problem, but is it healthy love?”

10. Enmeshed Friendships: Wanting/Needing Space (77:28–83:24)

• How to ask for space: Use “I statements” and focus on your own needs rather than rejecting the other person.
• Friendships inevitably ebb and flow; sometimes we need to fold in new people or rework existing routines.
• Acknowledge what the friendship can and can’t offer at each stage.

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11. Building & Maintaining a Healthy Village (83:25–85:50)

• Reinforce both offering and accepting help/support—healthy dependency is mutual.
• The goal isn’t the most friends, but deeper, more meaningful ones.

Nedra’s Closing Message:
Nedra (84:54): “We have to have care in our relationships. We have to accept help. We have to also offer it. We have to be willing to support people and we will need support… Deeper connections [is the goal].”

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Notable Quotes

• On Over-Boundaried Culture:
  “Some people are over-boundaried… when we haven’t practiced something, we go at it really hard and then smooth out… sometimes we’re doing it aggressively and not assertively.” (Nedra, 36:59)

• On Maintaining Self in Relationships:
  “You have to make time for it. Even when it feels like it’s no time… If you never had that stuff and you feel lost, you have to figure out what those things are. Sometimes we’re doing it to ourselves.” (Nedra, 58:57)

• On Inconvenience in Relationships:
  “If you’re not being inconvenienced, you might be the problem.” (Nedra, 64:42)

• On Shifting Friendships:
  “Maybe this is now the friend who you speak to by text four times a year… It doesn’t mean we have to completely lose the connection. It’s just in a different place.” (Nedra, 67:58)

• On Evolving Attachments:
  “Different relationship, different me… there’s some flexibility in how we show up in spaces.” (Nedra, 54:50)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:27 – Hosts' banter, vacation recaps, breakfast text misadventure
• 17:31 – Listener email: early-riser vs. night owl partner
• 33:16 – Nedra’s re-introduction; book discussion begins
• 36:29 – Boundaries: “village vs. villager,” overcorrecting with boundaries
• 43:42 – Definition of healthy dependency
• 47:31 – Hyper-independence and its costs
• 54:50 – Attachment styles and relationship dynamics
• 58:57 – Strategies for maintaining self in partnership
• 64:42 – The necessity of inconvenience
• 67:58 – Allowing for new friendship seasons
• 69:42 – Navigating differences over kids and relationships in friendships
• 74:11 – Handling family enmeshment
• 77:28 – Asking for and navigating space in friendships
• 83:25 – Reinforcing mutual support; healthy dependency
• 84:54 – Nedra’s closing message

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Closing

As always, Ashley and Rayna blend razor-sharp advice with vulnerability and wit. Nedra Glover Tawwab’s wisdom guides listeners through the nuances of healthy dependency, helping us all strive for balance—between self and others, independence and connection, boundaries and showing up for our communities.

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Find Nedra:

• Website: nedratwab.com
• Instagram/Threads: @nedratwab

Find the hosts:

• Girls Gotta Eat
• Insta & TikTok: @girlsgottaeatpodcast
• Ashley: @ashhess
• Rayna: @raina.greenberg

Buy Nedra’s new book: The Balancing Act (out now!)

Transcript

[Nedra Towal]

There are actually healthy ways to be dependent. There are things that we have to do as a byproduct of being in a relationship with people.

[Ashley Hess]

This podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Raina Greenberg]

Hi, guys. Hi, guys. Welcome to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

[Ashley Hess]

Welcome back.

[Raina Greenberg]

We've been talking some really hard shit. The last. I really, like. I feel happy in my boss Arctic.

[Ashley Hess]

We had to get some stuff out. Also, it's Groundhog's Day.

[Raina Greenberg]

Wait, it is?

[Ashley Hess]

So maybe if the groundhog sees a shadow.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, Groundhog's Day's in February.

[Nedra Towal]

What.

[Ashley Hess]

What happens?

[Raina Greenberg]

Day. There's, like, three more months of winter.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. If he sees a shadow or not, what happens? We should relate it to, like, the political landscape. Like, if he sees a shadow, maybe this nightmare will end. And if he doesn't, we have 30 more years of this dictatorship. Wait, is it Punxsutawney Phil?

[Raina Greenberg]

He's from Pennsylvania.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, we've talked about him, his family.

[Raina Greenberg]

What's the thing? Like, if. If he sees the shadow, Is it three more months of winter or something? Or am I stabbing.

[Ashley Hess]

Are you.

[Nedra Towal]

What?

[Raina Greenberg]

Every year, this is like, Groundhog Day.

[Ashley Hess]

No, because remember last year we talked about Punxsutawney Phil and how he has to live in. No, he has to live in, like, a library or something or a museum, and PETA is against it, and PETA reached out.

[Raina Greenberg]

I thought that there was some scandal where Punxsutawney Phil got really skinny. He looks like he was on a GOP one.

[Ashley Hess]

Everybody's on Ozempic. Okay. Groundhog's Day. Not you. It's said to. Except for me. I'm the. I'm the final one. I feel like it's becoming so accessible. Right? Like, pill form and everything, and. Yes. So, I mean, every. Everyone's going to be pill. I'm going to be the last person standing with a natural body.

[Raina Greenberg]

People are like, raina, how'd you lose weight? How do you think I lost Raina?

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. If he sees his shadow, it's said to extend six weeks more of winter.

[Raina Greenberg]

Six weeks, not three months. Okay.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. And then February, our special month.

[Raina Greenberg]

What is our special month?

[Ashley Hess]

So we will talk about this at a later date, but we will be celebrating eight years of the podcast this month.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's crazy.

[Ashley Hess]

It really is. So crazy. I was always like, are we gonna make it to five? You know, and now it's like, are we gonna make it to 10?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. What else are we gonna do?

[Ashley Hess]

All right, let's thank our partner.

[Raina Greenberg]

We're not going anywhere. Thanks to Article, get a beautiful new sofa, dining table or [e-mail] and thank.

[Ashley Hess]

You to Liquid IV. Get 20% off your first [e-mail] with code GGE and thank you to Revolve. Get 15% off your first [e-mail] GGE with code GGE.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I'll just say this really quickly. Ashley and I own a sexual wellness brand called Vibes Only. We have tons of amazing high end vibrators for couples solo. Gift your friends. We have lube, we have handcuffs, we have massage oil, candles, all kinds of stuff. So if you guys want to have just like a spicy, sexy Valentine's day by yourself or with your partner. Vibesonly.com and the last day for ground shipping is this week. It's February 5th. So beautiful packaging.

[Nedra Towal]

The best.

[Raina Greenberg]

I feel really excited to gift to somebody.

[Ashley Hess]

Extra sexy packaging.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes. Give somebody orgasms. That's what they really want.

[Ashley Hess]

So you started your tour. We are recording this beforehand but I'm sure it was great.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm sure it was great and you were with me all weekend and I'm sure it was great.

[Ashley Hess]

Let's hope something terrible happens where I have to come back in. Something terrible will probably happen, but it will be privately in your hotel room.

[Raina Greenberg]

That'll be amazing. I hope a lot of terrible things happen in my hotel room.

[Ashley Hess]

Terrible things. Disgusting things.

[Raina Greenberg]

Disgusting things. You guys stay tuned. Yeah, we'll let you know. We were at our friend's bachelorette this weekend also Alyssa Amoroso, who is a former guest of the show. So we'll, we'll tell you about it next week.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, yeah. If there's anything we need to recap, we will do it then.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah. But thanks for coming and you know, continue to give me your money. Raina greenberry.com yes, we have Nedra today. Oh my queen.

[Ashley Hess]

This will be our third, our third time with Nedra and it's the first time in person. We had her virtually and she walked in and I was like, what are you wearing?

[Raina Greenberg]

She's such a style queen.

[Ashley Hess]

So watch on YouTube to see her outfit. And I have since bought it.

[Raina Greenberg]

You really went home and bought it?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. So I was like, what does designer is she wearing that is like inaccessible to the average person? Like it looked so couture also.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm just like we have a lot of guests show up looking like a wonderful full outfit.

[Ashley Hess]

Heels.

[Raina Greenberg]

She had like heels on. She'd look great. Hair done, makeup done. I don't show up looking like that to other podcasts and I feel bad.

[Ashley Hess]

We Dress way better than we used to. I can't believe what we used to wear.

[Raina Greenberg]

Every day, I put on clothing, and I'm like, I cannot believe what I used to wear.

[Ashley Hess]

I know. And, you know, we did start the podcast without video, so maybe if we would have. I don't know. But even when we started doing video, I was still just really slumming it, and I years. I don't regret it because it's the growth.

[Raina Greenberg]

I was comfy.

[Ashley Hess]

You've been able to be on the journey with us. But her outfit, it's. It's Gap. It's like this Gap Studio thing. I was able to find it. It was on sale, like, 70 off. Final sale. So catch me in Nedra's outfit. You guys check it out on YouTube. And I just don't think I'm gonna be able to pull it off like her. I was saying, like, we just have different bodies, different looks. Like, I don't know. I'm just like. I feel like I'm gonna put it on and be like, God damn it.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know? I like an all jean set. I love a jean jumpsuit. Is it jean?

[Ashley Hess]

It's like. It's denim. Yeah, but the matte, the print, I mean. And she had a heel with it.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's silver heels. I'm saying, people come looking, like, really nice to record with us.

[Ashley Hess]

It is crazy when you see somebody in something you like. I'll buy that right now. I'll buy it now. I'm copying you exactly. Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Lindsay Simcik, when we recorded with almost 30 girls, those reformation pants with the studs down the side, it was like, immediate add to cart.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes, it's. It is so flattering. And it's like, you know, you and I do that too, and we try not to wear the same thing on the same day, but it's just like, that's girlhood.

[Raina Greenberg]

We haven't shown up in the same outfit in a while.

[Ashley Hess]

I know. Our styles change.

[Raina Greenberg]

Our period's not synced up anymore. That's crazy.

[Ashley Hess]

I don't get a period anymore.

[Nedra Towal]

Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

I have to read you this thing.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm just curious what you would have done.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I can't decide if this makes me an asshole or not. Okay. So I get a text from this guy. I've not seen his name in, like. I mean, I want to say 14 or 15 years. I went on one date with him in New York City.

[Ashley Hess]

Do I know about this at all? No, I want to know.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know, nothing. But I went on one date with this guy, it was sort of a weird date. And then I'd see him here and there in New York, but we never. I think we both mutually like, I don't fuck with you. And that was that. He's gotten married and had a kid since then. Okay, so I got a text from him the other day.

[Ashley Hess]

What?

[Raina Greenberg]

And it said, hey, I have an actual work emergency, so I'm leaving now. It says 28 minutes. I'm very sorry. I really hope to get there earlier today. And I was like, I don't need to respond to this. I don't care. Yeah, I don't need to be like, this is not for me.

[Ashley Hess]

But it's. It's so interesting for you to get that. Cause of your name. Like, I am way more prone to get something like that with Ashley.

[Raina Greenberg]

Totally.

[Ashley Hess]

What other Reina do you have?

[Raina Greenberg]

Reyna or Greenberg and like 412 from Pittsburgh. Like, it's not a major. It's a major city, but it's not a top 15 city in the country.

[Ashley Hess]

No, but you were programmed in his phone because he didn't just pull up an old 412 number for. From 15 years ago. Yes. Yeah. Like your name was in his phone.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. Two days later. Hey, be there around 8:15 for breakfast. Hope that's okay.

[Nedra Towal]

Wait.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh. What?

[Raina Greenberg]

He keeps going. So I again am just like, I don't need to respond to this. I don't care about this.

[Nedra Towal]

No.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. I am having a stroke.

[Raina Greenberg]

A couple weeks later. He goes on, no.

[Ashley Hess]

Reina, what is happening?

[Raina Greenberg]

Hey, sorry, but looking like a 24 arrival. Would love to still have breakfast if possible.

[Ashley Hess]

Wait, no. Why is it always the breakfast? What's he just. Was the first one breakfast too? This has been three breakfasts.

[Raina Greenberg]

The first one was not breakfast. The second was breakfast, the third was breakfast. I still am not responding.

[Ashley Hess]

And by the way, whoever he's texting is not responding. I know, which is you, but I'm saying whoever he thinks he's texting is.

[Raina Greenberg]

Not responding to him. So he isn't like picking up any context clues. Like when you got there, was there breakfast?

[Ashley Hess]

Wait, did they go to breakfast?

[Raina Greenberg]

When you talked to the person, did they say, I never got your text Are your text.

[Ashley Hess]

Right. This is an unsolved mystery.

[Raina Greenberg]

I got a fourth text.

[Ashley Hess]

No, the same. A different day last week.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, he says a guy's name, so I won't say what the name is. But John. John is just waking up now, so. So we will not be there for breakfast today.

[Ashley Hess]

Not breakfast again. Reina, how many Breakfast dates. Is this guy going on?

[Raina Greenberg]

Likely will be there closer to 8:30.

[Ashley Hess]

Wait, every day it's 8. What time? He's. Who is he having breakfast with? And he's going with his wife.

[Raina Greenberg]

So I text this to Jeremy. I go, this fucking idiot. Why is he texting me about breakfast every day?

[Ashley Hess]

Does Jeremy remember this guy?

[Raina Greenberg]

Jeremy knows him. Yeah, Jeremy knows him too.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm like this fucking idiot Jeremy. Without hesitating, it's clearly about his son. And it washes over me. He thinks he's texting his son school about his kids breakfast. And this is the kid's name. He's just waking up now. So we'll be there. We're gonna be missing breakfast this morning.

[Nedra Towal]

It never.

[Ashley Hess]

I still don't know what you're saying.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think he thinks he's texting his son. Son's school.

[Ashley Hess]

School.

[Raina Greenberg]

Hey, he's just waking up today. We don't need to do breakfast.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay? Okay. Jeremy, what are you a dad now? What are you a parent? You are inside the minds of parents. Okay, so how did he get. How did it get from Reina to the school?

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't. I'm just like, he'll figure it out. I'm not gonna. I did feel a little bad. Cause I like realized this was some kid's school and I want the kid to have breakfast.

[Ashley Hess]

This kid's starving. Because you aren't responding.

[Raina Greenberg]

Thursday, a couple days ago. We'll be there by 8, 10. Not sure if he will miss breakfast, but he will if you're not okay with waiting.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, so he is texting something that does not typically get a response. Obviously that's the only reason he would keep doing it. So, like.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes, but like, when you got there, didn't you realize there was or wasn't breakfast? And like, isn't it such a dad move to just keep texting?

[Ashley Hess]

Wait, you have not responded yet.

[Raina Greenberg]

Respond to the last one you did. No, I didn't.

[Ashley Hess]

You have not yet responded.

[Raina Greenberg]

I have not responded.

[Ashley Hess]

Did Jeremy say you should respond as a parent?

[Raina Greenberg]

He said I'm being an asshole. He looks like you're being an asshole. But like, I don't know. Listen, I'm not trying to starve this kid of breakfast. But like, shouldn't this dad also. Is he trolling? You think he's just trying.

[Ashley Hess]

Get back in. Get back with you? He's like, I'm a dad that cares about my kid and makes sure he.

[Raina Greenberg]

Has breakfast, but I can't be on time.

[Ashley Hess]

Poured me all the day.

[Raina Greenberg]

What if I wrote him back. I'm like, sorry, it's really giving me the eck that you can't be on time.

[Ashley Hess]

No, seriously, like, you're a shitty parent. Figure your shit out. Pull it together. Your kid needs to eat.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, I hope John's okay.

[Ashley Hess]

Like, I'm calling child protective services. You are not feeding your child.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's why I text him back. The number for cps.

[Ashley Hess]

You have to say, I think this is the wrong number. Because for me, for the audience, like, we all want to know what happens. Like, because you know he's going to say, oh, sorry, I thought you were the school.

[Raina Greenberg]

But now I'm too deep. Like, now I've gotten so many texts, I'm like, really an asshole.

[Ashley Hess]

No, text is funnier. All makes it funnier.

[Raina Greenberg]

Now I'm going to be like, I think you have the wrong number. You've texted me six times.

[Ashley Hess]

You're busy.

[Nedra Towal]

He.

[Ashley Hess]

He's still the one that's going to be embarrassed here. I wouldn't worry about that.

[Raina Greenberg]

Also, I'm confused because, like, I'm pretty sure, like, every school district is different, but are teachers giving out their personal cell phone numbers? And if so, like, then why are you aren't getting a response?

[Ashley Hess]

No, but everything is like text these days. Like, I think it's crazy. Like, stores are texting me all the time. Are you.

[Nedra Towal]

Are you finding this?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, like, randomly, when I'm shopping in New York, when I shopped at Mage and then Rag and Bone, they're texting. The salesperson that helped me is texting me, which I think is a little out of pocket. I don't think you should be able to text me. I didn't sign up for text, but I'm getting personal messages from the store. My point is just like, restaurants. Like, everything is like, text, so it feels like he's texting. This is like the way a hotel texts you when you're in the hotel.

[Raina Greenberg]

I feel like it's an automated service.

[Ashley Hess]

Not automated. Like it's going somewhere, but it's not something that's texting back. I guess I'm kind of going off on a tangent because I've been meaning to ask you, are you getting texts from fucking stores?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, but that doesn't feel weird to me. That's just like, you're just in their system now.

[Ashley Hess]

But I didn't tell you you could text me Rag and bone.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think it automatically, like, when you pay for something, I think it automatically.

[Ashley Hess]

Links it, but they're personal. Hey, Ashley. It was so. It Was great to help you find those jeans, man. I didn't give you my purse.

[Raina Greenberg]

A personal staff member is texting you.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes. And this one lady at, like, one of the. Was it. Was it mage? I think which we had a great. Is that how you say that? Shopping experience?

[Raina Greenberg]

Maj, I. I'm asking you. I have no idea. I don't. I would never. I would never be brave enough to say that word out loud. You're so brave.

[Ashley Hess]

Like, I appreciate it. We had a nice. She really helped me style something. But she was like, hey, this is so and so. Come back to see you next time. Like, I'm like, wait, don't make me respond to that.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't.

[Ashley Hess]

I have enough.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's got to be automated, though, because that's who's logged into the system when they're checking out at all.

[Ashley Hess]

It was completely personalized. My name, her name, and what I bought.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, but that's automated. That's totally automated. Yes. It's never is logged into the store. Okay. And they know who checked you out, and they know what you bought because the receipt.

[Ashley Hess]

Let me read it.

[Raina Greenberg]

I know that you like these personalized emails. I know you like them for our company, too.

[Ashley Hess]

Wait, wait. Don't insult me.

[Raina Greenberg]

You like them.

[Ashley Hess]

Let's have people weigh in on everything. Here it is. Okay. Read it. Hello, Ashley.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Stop.

[Raina Greenberg]

You use your credit card. Let me finish. Use your credit card. Are you gonna let me finish? I'm gonna let you finish. But Beyonce had one of the best albums.

[Ashley Hess]

You're not even ready.

[Nedra Towal]

Okay.

[Ashley Hess]

Hello, Ashley. Thank you for stopping in to shop with us. It was great meeting you. I hope the comedy special taping went well. Please see us again the next time you were in the neighborhood, Nancy.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay, I'm corrected. How much did you talk to this person?

[Ashley Hess]

You know how crazy that whole thing was, Me trying to find pants? Yeah. And then I didn't end up wearing them. But Nancy was so wonderful. I kept the pants. I've since worn them. But, like, they were like my backup pants that I was going to wear. It's a whole thing. When you guys see it eventually, one of these days, it's a whole thing.

[Raina Greenberg]

I told me a second. I was like, wait, what?

[Ashley Hess]

They're like, oh, right. You shot a special months ago. No, I promise. But no. So, like, we were on a journey together. I went in there one day, we picked them out. I told her to hold them, and I went back and got them. Like, Nancy and I were like this. And I really do appreciate her touching.

[Raina Greenberg]

Base that is crazy.

[Ashley Hess]

But I'm telling you, that's personal.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, that's really, like. That's taking it too far.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, I don't want to insult that. I had a great experience. Apparently. This is not. This is the norm.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, I have stores that will text me and say, like, hey, Raina, thanks for buying. Whatever the fuck text. Stop. To have us stop doing this. This is just somebody's cell phone number. Did you invite her to your special taping? Like, what happened?

[Ashley Hess]

I probably. And let me see the ragambo one. And again, I had a great experience, and I appreciated the text, Honestly, I just am, like, wondering if people, okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

This is not happening to me.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm not that friendly. Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think people probably would assume I'm friendlier. I'm not.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. But anyway, let me know if that's happening to you guys. But again, that's not a dig towards them. I, like, did appreciate. Like, we were. We developed a relationship over those couple days. In my desperate times.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, sometimes you just feel closer to, like, a store employee and then they.

[Ashley Hess]

Talk to you, but obviously they are allowed to do that.

[Nedra Towal]

No, it happens with Alice and Olivia all the time.

[Raina Greenberg]

I've been in Alice and Olivia with you, and you will become friends with every person in the store every time I leave.

[Ashley Hess]

Alice and Olivia, hey, girl. Great helping you out today. Come back and see us. I'm telling you, this is happening all the time.

[Raina Greenberg]

You people like you. You're very friendly in those stores. The Austin, Alison, Olivia, you and Zach were so sick as thieves. I was like, can we go?

[Ashley Hess]

I feel like that's how I got.

[Raina Greenberg]

That friends and family list you two were kicking. And that's for 30 minutes. I was like, can we leave?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. Again, I just. I don't mind it. I just didn't know if, like, I thought there might be, like, a privacy concern, that they're just texting customers. But let us know in the comments and then also let us know what you guys think about Raina's dealing with. I need to know. I need the parents to weigh in.

[Raina Greenberg]

Some people are going to be mad at me and be like, this is a kid and he needs to eat.

[Nedra Towal]

Like, he's eating.

[Raina Greenberg]

But, like. And listen. And I know that we're all proud of a dad for, like, doing something. We're proud of him for, like, driving his kid to school. Like, yay. Clap for the dads for, like, doing something that moms do every day. But I don't know. I just. I don't feel like texting this guy back.

[Ashley Hess]

Just do it, because I want to hear what he has to say.

[Raina Greenberg]

And now you want me to say, sorry. What do I say?

[Ashley Hess]

Hey, lol, this is the wrong number. It's just, you got to throw an LOL in.

[Raina Greenberg]

Hey, this is the wrong.

[Ashley Hess]

Hey, I think you have the wrong number. Lol.

[Raina Greenberg]

Now I'm all mixed up, okay? I think you have.

[Ashley Hess]

That's watching what she's doing right now. I've never seen you try to do this. You're trying to keep the mic between your tits. Raina's titty. Fucking the mic while she texts this guy back lol.

[Raina Greenberg]

Feels so rude.

[Ashley Hess]

No, really? Oh, I was doing it to soften.

[Raina Greenberg]

Otherwise, it's a little wrong number lol.

[Nedra Towal]

That's you guys.

[Ashley Hess]

Lol, right?

[Raina Greenberg]

It sent me.

[Ashley Hess]

Did it turn blue?

[Raina Greenberg]

It says deliver it and it's blue.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay. I don't know. I was just curious what he was texting with. What dads are using these days. We just asked Jeremy.

[Raina Greenberg]

The way Jeremy was like, obviously, that's somebody's kid. How is that obvious to you? I'm really smart at a woman, and I. It was not obvious to me and.

[Ashley Hess]

A woman, like, when you turn like.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm the one that would have the kid.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, I see what you're saying. I thought you meant those two didn't go together. Like, guys, I'm really smart, and I know I'm a woman, so it's crazy.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know, us with our stupid, silly woman brains. Can't figure out anything.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, well, we have one more email that we have had in the inbox for a while that we really want to discuss. Should we go over it?

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm not reading it. Yeah, okay.

[Ashley Hess]

Sorry. Serena's. She's so smart. Okay, so you guys know I don't read.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's a job.

[Ashley Hess]

Here.

[Raina Greenberg]

I liked the intro about you.

[Nedra Towal]

What?

[Raina Greenberg]

The intro part about you.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, is it. Was it about me?

[Raina Greenberg]

I think it just said something like sparkle eyes, something. Okay, so Boston.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, yeah. It is about me. I'll definitely read that part. Okay.

[Nedra Towal]

All right.

[Ashley Hess]

I was trying to find the subject line. The subject line is sleeping in slash, waking up early in relationships. You posted this in the outline. You took out the part about me.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, I just wanted to get to the point.

[Ashley Hess]

I'm going to go back. No, there's a Delaware connection, and she's been to the show in Boston where I met Shashank. So. Anyway, she's a longtime fan. We love when you guys also say those nice things when you Email.

[Raina Greenberg]

Listen, I just, I was, I was letting us digest it privately.

[Ashley Hess]

Anyway, she says, I know you guys have talked about this before, but I'd be interested. Have we? I don't know. I mean, maybe not really in depth. So buckle up. Okay. I have talked about this before, but I'd be interested to see what your followers think about sleep. It's necessary.

[Raina Greenberg]

Never matter.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. I have been with my fiance for 11 years. We're getting married this July and I'm so in love with him. That said, am I toxic because I legit love getting up early. I love starting the day when the sun rises and I jump out of bed every morning because I love life so much.

[Raina Greenberg]

What a brag.

[Ashley Hess]

I love life so much in this, in 2026. Do you. But this 31 year old man can literally sleep until noon. Okay. They've been together since they were 20, by the way. Like she, he's 31. So I mean this, this is like a, I find that fascinating together. When you're 20, you're, you're going to get married, you're in your 30s. This 31 year old man can literally sleep until noon. And when we were in college that was fine because everyone did and I was the outlier who wanted to start my day. But now that we're real adults, I feel frustrated that I'm jumping out of bed early to rock and roll and he needs a reason to be up in order to emerge earlier than 9am most Saturdays. If we have to leave the house by 10am for a planned event, I have to wake him up. This is the only part of life where I feel like I'm parenting this person. He is otherwise self sufficient, self starting and can do life on his own. We just get to be partners in it. I recently read an article called the Oppression of Morning People and How we're so Annoying. So I need to know, am I annoying? Like, should I just let this man sleep and be happy I got a good one instead of finding the one thing I don't understand to nitpick or is it fair to question why my man isn't jumping out of bed to live life like I am? I'd be interested to hear what your listeners think.

[Raina Greenberg]

If this is the only problem, truly.

[Ashley Hess]

If this is the only thing, you dig deep and you ask yourself, I mean, for her to write, I am so in love with him after 11 years. It is rare.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's rare. Listen, I like to get up really early. I get up six, six o' clock on the weekdays, 7:30 on the weekends, I like to get up really early. I like the morning when no one's talking to me. But that's my version of rest. I go to sleep really early too. So my version of relaxation recharging is go to bed early, get up early. That's not everybody's version of relaxation. I think that sleep is so important and feeling like you've de stressed from the week. I don't know what his job is, but if this is really the only problem, I understand her feeling like, man, this sucks. This is only a couple days we get together and asleep all day. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, I have so many things to say. And Rain and I talked about this privately too. And it would be tough to be with somebody that really. And I'm not as. I'm not a morning person. I'm not as up as early as you, but it would be tough to be with somebody who wanted to sleep till noon. Like, noon is not the same as 10:00am yeah. She's saying she has to wake him up if they have to do something at 10. Here's my question. Does he get up easily or is he like grumbling and he wants to sleep more? Like, is he an easygoing guy? Like, does he know that like, sometimes he has to get up early and do stuff with you? I also wonder what their nights are like. Is she going to bed a lot earlier? I mean, I curious with everything about their week and if they do both work traditional nine to five jobs and then they only have the weekends together. I mean, vacations, this is when it would bother me. We've talked about this before. Like, I do get up earlier on vacations, traditional vacations where not just like work trips, like, but I want to experience and do things and maximize my time. But she's that really early person. Like we have that friend in our college friends group. Like, even when we were all waking up so hungover, like, Alex was up and she'd been on a run and she is that person that like love her to death. She's like, she knows she's that person and she's not waking anybody else up. But when this girl asks, like, am I annoying? It's like we all have that friend. I don't find it annoying at all. But when we would all wake up, Alex is in the kitchen with her running clothes on and has been on a run. And I think it's like she knows she's got to get up early and she's going to do stuff before the rest of the world wakes Up. And I guess my advice to her is how she can reframe her mornings. Like, can she just kind of tell herself, like, I've been with this man for 11 years, I'm going to be with him till the end of time. Like, those mornings are my solo time and I really want to savor them. Like, you wake up and you do your stuff and you like being alone. Like, can she reframe it to be like, I like that he's sleeping in because I get to do these things for myself. And then I'm curious what the rest of their day looks like. Like, once he gets out of bed, is he willing to go do stuff? Like, is he like a lazy guy? It doesn't really sound like that. It sounds like it's just the getting up.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, I mean, some people have the ability to sleep until noon. I've never been like that. And like all my friends that have had partners like that, they make brunch plans with other friends and they make coffee plans and take walks. And I love the advice of just like, that's your solo time. You should enjoy it. Yeah, I guess. I'm curious if they live in a house or an apartment. It's like, I live in a house now. I can be downstairs making all the noise in the world and I don't really hear it upstairs. Like when somebody stays with me, if somebody gets up before me, like, you don't hear stuff, but like an apartment. It would be like out of the question for me in my New York apartments to like turn on the TV and cook and do stuff because you're like, yeah, somebody.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, that's the worst. If she feels like she has to tiptoe around. But if I were to guess, I don't think she feels like that. I think he thinks he knows he's going to sleep in and she's up. And I'm sure she is able to get up and live her life. I like what you said too. Like, if you are that person, get up, find a friend to go have breakfast with. But my question is just how he is the rest of the time. She says he's self sufficient, self starting and can do life on his own. If she's asking if it's a red flag that he's a night person that he wants to sleep in. No, there's all these studies that show that sometimes more creative people are night people. Like, does he go to bed at 9pm and he has to sleep till noon. He might need to see a doctor. But does he stay up late and he wakes up late. It's just sometimes how we're wired. I have really worked on it, but I know that naturally I am a person that functions better staying up a little later and not waking up at the crack of dawn. I'll never do it. My body rejects it completely when I have to wake up that early. It doesn't even really matter how much sleep I've had. I feel sick when I have to get up so early for a flight. I've realized what's the earliest I can even take a flight these days at this age that I can function the next day. I don't know. It's just kind of who we are, how we're built.

[Raina Greenberg]

I wonder what time they go to sleep at night too. Like she go to sleep a little bit earlier.

[Nedra Towal]

Right.

[Raina Greenberg]

And like this is just one of those things that I'm like when people say to me like we don't. We had an episode last week about fighting. Like we don't have any disagreements at all. Like I'm always like, you're not like a little annoyed at somebody every once in a while? Like to me this is just like something that's a little bit annoying about your partner. But like we're all a little bit annoying. So is this the only annoying thing about him?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. Or does she feel like he actually doesn't want to live life to the fullest? He can totally be a person that loves life. He just wants to start life at 10am like it doesn't necessarily mean that. But she has to ask herself that, like am I writing this email and trying to get advice from these girls? Because my question is deeper than this and I'm just kind of masking it with the morning stuff or not. So that's for her to decide. But if this really is it and once he gets up he's reliable and he'll go do stuff, then I don't think it's certainly a deal breaker this 11 year relationship.

[Raina Greenberg]

I'm curious what his job is too.

[Ashley Hess]

Like right.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think about something like my brother who gets up at like 4:35 o' clock in the morning to go to work. He works in finance and then doesn't get home till like 6pm like my brother is like out at work for like 12 hours a day and so on the weekends, like if somebody wants to sleep in I you have to just kind of let them. That's like their recharge time. And it would annoy me if somebody was constantly like get up, get up, get up because, like, I deserve to relax as much as you do.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, totally. I mean, I do want to validate though that this can be an issue in relationships. I mean, with Shashank, like, we. He was going in at nine and that worked really well for us. He wants to get up at like 7:30. And then we were having like coffee together in the morning. It was like really nice. And now he is going in at 8 and we don't do that anymore. Like I am getting up sometimes when he's leaving. Like, I like to be up and moving by eight. I try and he's gone. So we just had to be like, we're not doing that unless things change. Like, I can't get up at, at 7 or 6:30. Like just. I. That doesn't work for me.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, you're on the night shift.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. And so we're, you know, we still go to bed together nine nights out of ten. But it's just kind of like, I don't know. If he had to get up every morning at, at 5:30 and the alarm went off and it woke me up and I had trouble going back to sleep, it would be a real problem.

[Raina Greenberg]

I also, like, again, I'm not suggesting they have any problems. If this is the only problem, great. Go for you.

[Ashley Hess]

You're killing it.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's amazing to have been with somebody for that many years from the time you were 20. Because like she's saying, like, this used to be a different lifestyle choice. Everybody in college in your early 20s is kind of like a piece of trash and you sleep all day. And I think that's the hard part about relationships. Like that was when you meet somebody, they're just in a very different stage of life and you hope to go grow up together. And some people do hit that age where they're just like, we just are in. We're in different phases of life, kind of.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. And we talked about this with drinking recently. When you do get together this young and let's just say you're drinking and partying a lot and then you grow up and one person stays in that drinking, partying, getting drunk, blacking out, being hungover lifestyle. The other person doesn't. And can you work that out? And this is, I mean, we just are not who we are in our 20s versus our 30s versus our 40s and so on. So if they really have grown together since 20 and everything else is aligned and she can still say, I'm so in love with him and she's really excited to marry him and like this is it. I would say just figure out how you have to reframe your mornings. Let him live. And good luck.

[Nedra Towal]

I agree.

[Ashley Hess]

We solved it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Good luck out there.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

All right, well, let's just thank our partners and then we'll get into it with Nedra.

[Ashley Hess]

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[Raina Greenberg]

I also just wasn't feeling very well on Sunday and so I just put some in water just like made me feel a little bit better.

[Ashley Hess]

Totally. So we are such fans of it. You can get the sugar free as well. I stick to the standard. I like lemon, lime, grapefruit and guava are my favorite flavors. But if you guys want to do sugar free, they have strawberry, kiwi, BlackBerry, lemonade and guava. Pomegranate. All is just so delicious. I really do love their flavors. There's no like aftertaste. They taste really naturally like the, the fruit or whatever the flavor is. And so we just love that. We love the benefits. And again, like we said, just one stick and 16 ounces of water hydrates better than water alone. So you guys can show up with better hydration and energy from Liquid IV. So zero sugar and zero crash tear poor, live more. Go to Liquid I.com and get 20% off your first order with code GIGI at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with Code GGE@liquid IV.com and you guys are.

[Raina Greenberg]

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[Ashley Hess]

Oh my gosh. Seriously.

[Raina Greenberg]

They have a lot of the options. They have linen couches, they have velvet, they have leather. But I'm just liking these, like really like warm, lovely, like cozy couches now. And they have fast, affordable shipping and assembly across US and Canada. They have great support whenever you need it. So the team is available seven days a week offering knowledgeable, and they have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. So if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you could easily return it. If you're in the market for a new sofa, dining table or bed, head over to article.com okay.

[Ashley Hess]

And revolve. Oh my God. Reina, what are you shopping for right now in Revolve?

[Raina Greenberg]

I just ordered actually the entirety of my tour outfits from Revolve.

[Ashley Hess]

So hopefully I feel you on that.

[Raina Greenberg]

We're going to a bachelorette party we've just gotten back from and I just want like different cute tops for the tour. So I just did like a giant haul. There's obviously tons of brands and styles and there is nothing better than their shipping time, which is two days usually, and their customer support. I mean, I love all of it.

[Ashley Hess]

It's the best. Yeah. So for Alyssa's bachelorette, she did some themes and just color. Nothing crazy, but like one night was like a neutrals and nudes theme, which I was obsessed with. So I got right on Revolve and searched by brown and beige and whatever. Yeah, you can search sets by color and of course they have their different collections and stuff so you can shop by vacation. So I was looking at their vacation shop clothing for the stuff that we were going to wear in this boat. And I mean, everything I'm wearing for that weekend will be from Revolve. So anything that you guys need, I mean, these jeans are on Revolve or they used to Be they're a little older but they are Paige. So they have all your great denim brands. So many different incredible brands.

[Raina Greenberg]

I did Reza for my tour tops, Resa and afrm for a lot of like little dresses and tops.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes. I love lovers and friends. They have Amanda Uprichard, Norma Kamali, a Goldie super down. That's like a revolve brand. It's really affordable, really cute stuff. Free people. There is new arrivals daily, inclusive sizing with options from extra extra small up to 4x. We just love it. It's the best customer service. So easy to do returns and exchanges and again that fast free shipping. You just cannot beat it. It is just a go to for everything. I mean get all your clothes for any special event, wedding, night out, vacation, the whole thing. So whether it's a weekend away, a big night out or just a much needed wardrobe refresh, your dream wardrobe is just one click away. Head to Revolve.com GGE shop our edit and take 15 off your first order with code GGE. Fast two day shipping, easy returns. It's literally the only place you need to shop from. That's Revolve.com GGE to shop our favorites and get 15 off your first order with code GGE. Okay. And the offer ends February 19th. So shop now. They don't do this a lot. We say this every time but take advantage of that. Deal that 15 off and it is going to end February 19th. Revolve.com gigi and now we will get into it.

[Raina Greenberg]

All right guys. We are very excited to welcome our guest back for a three peat. She is a therapist and a highly sought after relationship expert. Plus the author of two New York Times bestsellers, set boundaries, Find peace and drama free. I think soon to be three time New York Times bestseller of her new book the Balancing act. Please welcome to the show my boundaries queen, Nedra glovertwab.

[Nedra Towal]

Thank you for having me. Such a warm welcome. You should wake me up in the morning. I need to record that so I can. You could be like my alarm, like.

[Raina Greenberg]

The opposite of the calm app, the get Hype app.

[Ashley Hess]

Wake the fuck up, bitch. You got your third bestseller on the way.

[Raina Greenberg]

Nedra, I feel like I tell you this every time we record. I probably quote you the most of any guest. You and Esther Perel the most of any guest.

[Ashley Hess]

Do you think that that's accurate? 100%.

[Raina Greenberg]

Just in conversation all the time I talk about you.

[Ashley Hess]

I feel like you've changed Raina's life. Ye, that's not a joke. Don't laugh.

[Nedra Towal]

Who was she before me? I mean, was she even Reyna?

[Ashley Hess]

No, I don't remember. Pre Nedra. Reyna, right.

[Nedra Towal]

Who, who does?

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, like fix a lot of stuff.

[Ashley Hess]

Like if a week has gone by and she hasn't brought you up for the last three years, two years.

[Nedra Towal]

I appreciate it.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes, yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, I'm sure you've changed a lot of people's lives and you, I joke that you're the boundaries queen, but like you really taught us and a nation about boundaries and this has become such a buzzword. And then your follow up book was specifically boundaries with family members. And this is kind of a pivot, the balancing act.

[Ashley Hess]

And it's.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, tell us about it. Tell us about the book and the pivot into sort of a new topic.

[Ashley Hess]

An inspiration, a pivot.

[Nedra Towal]

I see it as an integration of how to do boundaries and dependency. Well, great. Because I think that there is this idea that for some of us that boundaries apply to everybody in every single way and all the time. And in this book I am saying there are actually healthy ways to be dependent. There are things that we have to do as a byproduct of being in a relationship with people. It's not always convenient, it's not always fun, but it needs to be done. Yes, codependency is not always great, but aren't we happy when the codependent has someone else and not us? Like, they need people too, you know. So I think we need to look at this as a fuller picture in terms of boundaries and not just like boundaries for me and no one else. So I do some talking about, like, what if a friend wants space with you? What if, what if your partner wants some space? You know, we have heard so much about, like, I need, I need, I need. We're in community and unfortunately we are in a loneliness epidemic. Not just because of boundaries, but, you know, we're more inside the world is more virtual and we are just losing connection. So I want to help people feel better, connected without the stress of I don't know how I'm going to be in this relationship because I either go in with no boundaries or I'm codependent or I have this problem, like, you can do it, I'm rooting for you. You can be in these relationships without losing your mind.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, we have a lot to talk about, especially on the dependency, healthy dependency, codependency. But since you brought it up, let's talk about this concept that we discussed on an episode a few weeks back about everyone wants a village, but no one wants to be a villager. And we want to ask you, boundaries queen, are people over boundaried?

[Nedra Towal]

Some people are.

[Raina Greenberg]

I've never seen a girl do this in the middle of an episode.

[Nedra Towal]

I know I have that effect.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, it's the outfit.

[Nedra Towal]

In some instances, we are over boundary. But I also think that when we haven't practiced something, we go at it very hard and there's this, like, high, and then we sort of, like, smooth out. And many of us, because boundaries is such a new practice, and we're like, yes, I have the juice now. And we're giving everybody the boundary. We're not doing it, doing it softly sometimes. We're doing it aggressively and not assertively. We're overdoing it in some instances. So it. It does happen. But. But I would say it's a. It's a good thing to have boundaries. It always has been. But I do think we need to consider who, what, where, how.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, we asked you, if someone just doesn't want to show up to your birthday party, is that a boundary?

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, when.

[Ashley Hess]

Where's the misuse coming in for when it comes to not showing up for your community?

[Nedra Towal]

So if I nedra to was to not show up to a friend's party, I would, one, send them a message with the reason why. Two, I would let them. Well, before that, I would let them know in advance. So you are already not expecting me there. And two, I want to let you know why. Because I care about this relationship. I'm not coming just because I don't want to be there. I'm not coming because I'm out of town or I have something else booked that day that I can't get out of. And three, one of the things that I think is really important is repair. So if I'm not coming to your birthday party, hey, girl, can we grab a coffee next week? Can we have dinner separately? I still want to celebrate your. Your birthday. I just won't be able to make this thing. What ruins relationships is. And I've been in this situation, people no call, no show. They no call, no show. They act like nothing happened. Then they're texting you. Have you watched his and hers? You ain't even come to my birthday party.

[Ashley Hess]

Forget it.

[Nedra Towal]

I'm so confused. Yeah, like, you have to keep your people in the fold. You have to keep them in the loop. And these are not toxic relationships. Like, I think some boundaries apply to toxic situations, toxic relationships. But if you're applying a boundary where it doesn't need to be, you're not Using it. Using it for its intended purpose.

[Raina Greenberg]

Some people are a little fast and loose. And, I mean, it's a real trigger for me. Like, when we have live shows and we include people in it, we give people tickets and we invite them. And, like, it's happened once or twice to me with a friend that, like, the night of the show, they'll be like, hey, girl, I can't come anyways. Have a great show. And I'm like, are you gonna.

[Ashley Hess]

Or no call, no show.

[Raina Greenberg]

Apologize to me.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah, yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Taking money out of my pocket, taking a seat away from somebody that would have used it. Treating something that's important to me like it doesn't matter. All those things really. But, like, yeah, you could cancel plans on me if you do it ahead of time and not when I'm about to walk on stage and act like you don't care.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah, that's the trigger for me. Yeah. I lost a friendship once because I had a friend who was always on her way to the thing but never showed up.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's crazy.

[Ashley Hess]

What happened? Girl on the way.

[Nedra Towal]

Are you alive?

[Ashley Hess]

Was she on? She wasn't really on the way.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah, like, hey, I'm on my way to.

[Ashley Hess]

Like.

[Nedra Towal]

But she never showed up. Like, what happened on the way? So after she did that a few times, she lost her invite privilege. Yeah, you're no longer on the list. And then that's when she's like, hey, you didn't invite me to the thing. And I had to say very clearly, you don't show up.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Nedra Towal]

You don't show up.

[Ashley Hess]

That's not an insult. That's just. That's your fact.

[Nedra Towal]

That's just a fact. And that doesn't mean I don't want to be your friend anymore. So here's the thing. I think sometimes we have these conflicts, and instead of it just being a conflict, we take it as the relationship is over. No, no, you're just not invited because you have not proven that you'll show up. If you want to regain privileges, you need to work on that. I don't need to help you through that because a lot of times if I'm planning something, I'm accounting for food, I'm accounting for entertainment. Sometimes, you know, like, these things cost. So you not showing up still cost me $100.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right.

[Nedra Towal]

Because I have.

[Ashley Hess]

I just had a wedding.

[Nedra Towal]

I know in advance. What do I say? Hey, hey, that money that I gave you, give me some back. They not coming.

[Raina Greenberg]

No, but, like, some people I think are, like, it's my boundary, and it's like, this is just a crock of shit. Don't therapy language me into your bad.

[Ashley Hess]

Behavior or you're just tired or you had a long day, but that's, that's life. Like, that's what we talked about on our podcast. Like, we understand if you are going to show up to a social event and have a panic attack, but if you just are a little tired or it's a minor inconvenience, I'm still showing up. I want to be the friend that shows up if it's not the thing I want to do the most in that moment.

[Nedra Towal]

Well, two things here. One thing is I recently had a friend and I already knew this about her, but I'm sorry. So happy she said it. I do not invite her to things where it's gonna be 10 or more people, personality wise. I know she's gonna dislike it. It's not her vibe. So recently she said to me, if it's gonna be other people there, I don't wanna go, so just include me for one on one things. Which is on brand for her because she'll let you know in advance. She'll let you know. She'll give you some reason. She follows up with an independent thing. She does all, all the, the right protocol. But after a while I. It's just like she doesn't want to be here. She doesn't want to be at a large gathering. She's like, I prefer a one on one experience. So she doesn't care about being invited to the birthday party, the dinner. She's like, I don't want to be here anyway. Please don't make me come.

[Ashley Hess]

Exactly.

[Nedra Towal]

And, and for her, it's like I feel our connection one on one and not with, yes, 14 people around and you're going and you're talking and, and I'm okay with that because I have other friends who will come to every single thing. I'm not saying that every friend has to do the same thing. Our connection is very deep, despite her not doing that totally. The other thing is what is a boundary? It is a need. I wouldn't say is necessarily a rule, but it's something to keep you safe and comfortable in your relationships with other people. I think sometimes when you have a preference, is, is the preference a need? Is this a rule that maybe you have or is it a boundary? And I think there needs to be some distinction in how you're. You're saying it. But the boundary of I won't come to your party, but I go to other parties Is that really a boundary or is that a preference for your party in particular? And if so, can we communicate something about that?

[Ashley Hess]

We love this.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, I can talk about this for the rest of the time, but we want to talk about your book. So the book is about creating healthy dependency. So could you maybe talk a little about, like, what is what's, quote unquote, healthy versus non healthy? And then we can get into the subcategories of, like, codependency. But broadly, what does dependency look like?

[Ashley Hess]

And I do really want your definition of codependency, because I feel like I have still can't seem to get a grasp on that word.

[Raina Greenberg]

Well, let's talk about healthy and unhealthy and get into these, like, subtopics.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah, well, codependency, when is when you are helping in a counterproductive way to another person, there is some emotional tie to that situation that really gets in the way of your growth and the other person's growth. The word codependency became popular from the AA community. Right. So it became a thing in that community around, like, people who have helped us stay. Addicts are codependent with us. And sometimes I've been codependent in helping people in their addiction. So I'm giving them money. I am, you know, enabling. Enabling. I am, you know, so it sort of came out of that branch of things. However, we can be codependent in other ways. You can be codependent in a friendship. You can give people so much advice that you're like, oh, my gosh, every time they have a problem, they have to call me and I'm on the phone for four hours. Problem solving. So that can also be codependency. So it's really attached to a negative or unhealthy behavior of some sort. Enmeshment would be another form of not necessarily codependency, but an unhealthy dependency. Enmeshment, I will say, is only problematic when the people start to pull apart from each other. So it's really not a problem until you, like, go home and you meet your partner's family and you find out that he sleeps in a bed with his mom.

[Ashley Hess]

Right. Okay. And we do want to talk about enmeshed families and friends. Yeah.

[Nedra Towal]

And you're like, oh, wow. Or you notice that they have this whole cuddle situation going together on the, you know, on the couch, and you're like, wow. Like, we typically hold hands, but I didn't know you, like, really get in there with your mom. Like, so then it's like, wow. And it's like, yeah, this is how it is. And mom is calling all times of the day and da, da, da, da. So that's when it starts to be a problem. Because now you're like, oh my gosh. My partner cannot separate from his mom or from his family. So enmeshment is one of those things where if two people agree to it, totally no problem.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yep.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah. It's not until one of the folks decides, I want something different. Or typically when somebody else comes into that dynamic and it's like, what am I watching?

[Ashley Hess]

It's like, right. Someone challenges. Yeah.

[Nedra Towal]

It's like, what am I seeing? So it's. It's normal for your mom to cut your food.

[Ashley Hess]

We're like brothers and sisters.

[Nedra Towal]

Brothers and sisters.

[Ashley Hess]

Best friends.

[Raina Greenberg]

I see a lot of best friends. I mean, Ashley and I are business part. We're so enmeshed in each other's lives. We have the same friend group. I spent holidays with her family and we're in business together almost a decade. We have a second business.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

It would be a real problem for me if I didn't like, like her partner. I mean, I can't. It's my worst nightmare in the world that like I wouldn't like love the person she was married to.

[Ashley Hess]

But I mean, the scenario I feel like you see more often would have been that he came around whether you liked him or not and you were really jealous and were like calling me all the time. Where are you? Like, it's just. And we've all seen that. And I think that happens a lot when you're younger too. This happened. Not at all.

[Raina Greenberg]

All.

[Ashley Hess]

By this way, I'm just kind of. The scenario would have been you freaking out.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like Regina George. And she was like. And then all of a sudden in seventh grade, I got a boyfriend and she was like, why didn't you call me back?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, she was in love with me.

[Raina Greenberg]

Right. I can see that in like friendships with. With people that are very close.

[Nedra Towal]

There's more to the unhealthy. I think those are some of the things we're more familiar with. But also on the unhealthy spectrum is hyper independent. When we do not accept help, we do not ask for help. We have this spirit of diy.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay.

[Nedra Towal]

Anything that needs to be done, I can do it. I am self sufficient. And what happens in those cases is when you actually need someone, you struggle to find anybody because you have disconnected so much or you are just without resources.

[Raina Greenberg]

Do you think that comes from people that, like, grew up in a household where, like, help wasn't available to them, so they became super independent sometimes.

[Nedra Towal]

But I think all our wounds aren't always childhood, but maybe that could be it. But what if you. What if you were in, I don't know, a dating scenario where your partner made you feel that way, and so now going forward, you, like, question it about yourself? Like, I think there's any sort of traumatic impact that could have happened to sort of change the way that you. You open your arms to people. And sometimes it is really a protection because you have been hurt by people, whether that's the family or other folks. And so it may seem easier, it may seem more appropriate for you to figure it out rather than lean on other people or go to them for any support.

[Raina Greenberg]

I love that you said that it's not just from your parents and that a partner can, like, rock your sense of self. Because I had a girlfriend recently who we're friends with and a relationship, and a. And her ex said to her, like, you're totally dependent on me and I have to do everything for you. And I. It really rocked her sense of self. And I was like, that's not what you're like. This is how this person has made you feel. But you're so independent. You're so. I mean, she's just. I don't know. I like that you said that a partner can rock your sense of self because that's how they see you through that lens. But that's not how we see her at all.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Helpless.

[Ashley Hess]

I mean, and like, I can see a world in which maybe innately, someone has always been super independent and they finally let the walls down and they leaned on someone and they got burned. And, I mean, you would just never want to do it again, whether it was a family member or a friend or a partner, where you're like, okay, I'm going to be vulnerable. I'm going to reach my hand out and ask for help. And you felt some sort of. Like it wasn't what you expected or you felt rejected. So I can understand why you wouldn't want to do that again.

[Nedra Towal]

Well, different people. If we're meeting different people, we're not dating the same person. We're not meeting the same friend. We can't get that sister or that brother again in this lifetime. If we're meeting new people, there is the potential for us to practice what we learned. You are aware of those indicators of a person who will use certain things to their advantage and not yours. You are aware of a person who will maybe call you needy or do these things. So I understand that our natural reaction is just to retreat and to forget that we even have that need because it's been, you know, thrown in our face or it's been abused or we haven't figured it out. But, you know, I think it's really important to reclaim that. That we can be needy, and that's a healthy thing. When I think about neediness, like, you know, I'll have a client here and there be like, am I being too needy? And I'm like, it depends on the person you're talking to. Some people love to talk on the phone every day, and that's not needy at all. Others do not. So I don't want you to feel like that behavior is inappropriate for some people. It doesn't work. It doesn't mean they're bad people. But if you have enough people in your life, you won't even notice the person who doesn't like that thing, because you have seven other people to talk to.

[Ashley Hess]

Right? The village. You need the village.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, there are people. I don't read myself as needy, but, like, there's probably some people that would see my need to send all these voice notes all day long, talk about all my thoughts and feelings as needy or annoying.

[Ashley Hess]

That's not true.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's not my person.

[Nedra Towal]

And some people love them.

[Raina Greenberg]

People generally love them.

[Ashley Hess]

Like, I love this point. You know, how you can act with certain friends. Like, I'm thinking of the way that we. Again, we're best friends. Let's just take us out of it. I have friends that. I have a friend that, like, she is just. She's bad on text, and she's not always available, and I really love her and I can rely on her, but I can't. If I thought I could text and voice note with her all day the way I do with you, I would be sorely mistaken. Like, I would be rejected and let down. So we all kind of have to pick up on the way people communicate and want to be your friend.

[Nedra Towal]

Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

And if you're not getting enough, you're not getting anything at all, and you feel like someone. You can't rely on somebody that's different. But I think the communication is. I think about that. I have friends, and I'm like, I can't. I can't be like that without. That would be crazy.

[Raina Greenberg]

Or sometimes I've beaten a dead horse so much with one audience, and I need to move on to a new audience.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah. I had Someone tell me, you know, my expectation is that if people can't respond to a text, that they text me and say that they can't respond or look at it. And I was like, what? So they have to respond even if they can't say they can't respond? Yeah, it's like they ghosted me. If I text you at 12 o' clock and I text you about this scenario and by 4 o' clock you haven't said anything, you should at least look at it and say, I see this.

[Ashley Hess]

I think you'd start to, I don't know, you start to pick up on people's communication. I have friends I've made here, and they are slower to text. We might. It might be a day, but they're doing other stuff. They're working. They have emails. Like, I think I've learned to expect more, that we don't get immediate responses from people all the time.

[Raina Greenberg]

Sometimes I'm like, I've always DMs and now you've given me an art project. I have to respond to all this. You decided to communicate with me. I did not communicate with you. And so sometimes I need to get through my day before I'm available to respond to this. Because you decided to communicate with me, not the other way around.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah. So it's really about managing our expectations and not putting that on other people to always fulfill our needs because of our expectations. Like, sometimes we have to adjust based on the person. It doesn't mean that they're toxic. It doesn't mean they're emotionally unavailable. But it might mean that they didn't have their phone in their hand for eight hours.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Nedra Towal]

It might mean that, you know, they had a busy day and they want to decompress by not looking at a bunch of, you know, messages that.

[Ashley Hess]

Or they might not have an answer. You know, like, I think when you're making plans, it's like sometimes people need to check their schedule. They need to see if they can make it. And some people might write, I'll get back to you. And some people might not. And that's okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

I like this idea that we can show up as different people in different relationships, too. And I wonder, like, what you would call this, but, like, I had one relationship when I was my early 20s who's like, my first boyfriend in New York. And I've always been a pretty independent person. I can figure things out myself. I think of myself as very like, Type A, but I had this boyfriend who was pretty controlling. He made the decisions for everywhere we Went where we would eat. All the things I felt like he was. He made me feel like he was smarter than me. I do relate to this being a very young trait as well. I was 22 or 23 in this relationship, but I really became this version of myself that was so dependent on him for like my thoughts and feelings and my ideas. And I don't identify as that. But like I suddenly needed to defer to another person for how I thought and felt. And that was really outside of my body. And I've never since or before experienced that. But like, I showed up as a different person in that relationship because of that person. And I guess that's codependency kind of.

[Nedra Towal]

Yes is codependency. But it brings me to thought about attachments, which I talk about in this book. And so, you know, a lot of people may believe that your attachment is fixed, right? Like if you have an anxious attachment, that's how you are in every relationship. And what you're saying is, different relationship, different me. There are some people who we meet in the world where they show up a certain way and we respond to that. He wanted to be the leader, he wanted to be in charge. He wanted to be the smarter person. So you showed up as this, like, I don't know anything totally. And you went with that, right? So that doesn't mean you're always that way. It doesn't mean just because you're avoidant in one connection that you will always be avoidant. That there is some flexibility in how we show up in spaces. I will say that with attachment styles that, you know, some of them do lend themselves to maybe a more hyper dependent or hyper independent. When you think about like a disorganized or an anxious type of attachment, you're probably going to lean a bit more towards that codependency end of the spectrum. And when you're more avoidant, you're more hyper independent, right? Like, yeah. So, you know, what is the middle of that secure attachment?

[Raina Greenberg]

I think that's comforting for everybody to hear that you can kind of change your attachment style depending on your partner.

[Ashley Hess]

So that type of relationship I want to discuss where let's just say you have a woman who's in a relationship and is feeling like she is becoming dependent, she has lost her independence and she can't live without this person and he or she makes all the decisions and you really have a loss of self. And can we kind of discuss what that looks like and how we get there and how we make sure that doesn't Happen, Because I think a lot of women are like, I wasn't this type of person before. I don't know what happened to me. I used. Like our friend we were talking about. I used to be independent and make my own decisions and not have my emotions regulated by my partner. And here we are.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah, well, maybe this relates, maybe it doesn't, but I want to talk about it. Recently, I have rediscovered my love of playing solitaire with playing cards.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay.

[Nedra Towal]

It is so relaxing to just get all of these stacks and every seventh game, maybe win. Right. I used to do this all the time as a teenager. I would be on the telephone talking to my friends, listening to some music in the background and playing solitaire. Like, that was my thing, solitaire. I don't know why it was my thing.

[Raina Greenberg]

You know, I love it on the computer.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah, I. I did, too. But it's something about playing with the cars that just feels really good. And I started doing it a few weeks ago, and my husband was like, you know, he's like, watching me do it, and my kids are like, how do you know? Because I know all these different versions of it with the playing cars, and they're like, how do you know this? I'm like, I used to do this all the time. I don't even know why I stopped. Nobody said, hey, stop doing this. It was just like, we have it on our phones. And the reason I rediscovered it is a way to use my phone less. Right. So now I'm like, I'm going old school. And so sometimes it's not anybody asking us to abandon this part of ourselves. It's us giving it up because we think it's necessary for this relationship.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah, I thought with that guy. And again, I being 22, is very different. I was super young, but he was six years older than me. He made more money. He was more successful in this industry that I wanted to get. He made me think that all my thoughts and ideas were immature and stupid and his were better, and he had more experience, and I just kind of went with it. And there was a lot of good stuff that came with that, too. You know, he had a lot of great connections in New York. We were always at great restaurants. Everybody would want to show up at the table and give us free food. And he knew a lot of people. He taught me a lot of things. I got good things from that relationship, but I did just defer to him. And I remember feeling like, who the fuck? Who am I? What happened here?

[Ashley Hess]

So how do you maintain your independence in a Relationship and have the healthy dependency. I guess those are kind of the same.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Nedra Towal]

I think you have to make time for it. Even when it feels like it's no time. You have to have those friend dates, you have to have that time with your partner, you have to have time with your kids, and you have to have time with yourself. Very often we try to figure out a way to give this one area a lot of our focus. And I think there are times like if your kids are babies or something like that, but, you know, the more they grow up, it's like the more freedom you get. The longer you're in a relationship with your partner is like, the less you have to be enmeshed. It's like, okay, we've been sitting in each other's faces for a year. That's enough, right? It's like, I'm going back to my girls nights. You know, you have to figure out a way to reincorporate some of that stuff that you have been holding back on. And if you never had that stuff and you feel lost, you have to figure out what those things are. You have to give your village the opportunity to rise to you having other things on your plate and in your schedule. I had a friend last year who is a very busy lady, say, I'm going to do a triathlon. She didn't even know how to swim. She first had to take swim lessons to learn how to swim, to do the triathlon. So now she's doing swim lessons multiple times a week and training for a triathlon with three kids. Busy lady, never had time. And she's like, I need to do this for myself. It's a test of my strength. So even without having the time, we have to make it. Because if we don't, we get to, you know, many years and it's like, oh, I never did any of the things I wanted to do. I am not the person I thought I would be. And nobody did it to us. You know, sometimes we're doing it to ourselves.

[Ashley Hess]

But I see how it happens. I don't feel like this about my relationship, and I don't think anybody would say that about me. But I see how it can happen. I see how it can creep up on you, how every night you're together. And then if one person has a more robust social life, which would be me, it's like, I don't want to leave him at home. I don't think like this. I'm just saying I can put myself in the shoes of. It's like, you Become so enmeshed. You have your thing you do every night and then. And the girls want to go out and you're like, but I can't. Like, I get how it can slowly start to erode that independence. And so it is harder to change once you've gotten into the rut. So it's like never stop the things if you can help it. But I also understand you're in a new relationship or you're raising children and you want to commit more time to this thing. But I can see how it happens. And you know those people who are like, I can't leave him at home. And you guess you can't. What do you.

[Nedra Towal]

Yes, you can. My parents.

[Ashley Hess]

And my parents are a great example of like, they've my whole life. I mean, they've been married 40 plus years. They travel separately. They travel together too. That not exclusively separately, but my mom does her girls trips. She has a million friends. My dad does the ski trips. My mom doesn't ski. And they have always kept those things of their own.

[Nedra Towal]

Separate interests are so important.

[Ashley Hess]

Yes.

[Nedra Towal]

For long term relationships. There are some couples in the world where they don't need anybody else.

[Ashley Hess]

But yes, there are. There really are. And they're.

[Nedra Towal]

They're happy.

[Ashley Hess]

That's great.

[Nedra Towal]

And if that's working for you, that's great. I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to the people who are like, gosh, we spend every minute together and I would love to have some friends. Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Nedra Towal]

I feel like I was very heavy in the season of parenting. And I would say about two years ago, I was parenting very heavy. And I was very busy with work probably at the time, like four books in, like, super busy. And I had to send a few texts out just acknowledging that I have not been present in some of these relationships. And I see why y' all be on Instagram together and I ain't there. Because I have issued so many no's. I can't. That I'm no longer on the guest list.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Nedra Towal]

And so now that I notice that, I will try my best to make myself available for this thing. Give me the day. I'll figure something out. I'm gonna try to be there. And if I can't again, we're going back to, okay, I couldn't do it that day. Can we do it on this? Can we connect at another time? I'm also initiating the invites, but I have been that person where it's like, oh, everything is going on. I gotta go home. My man, my man, my man, the, the key is the keys. The key is. And work. Right. But it's not full. Life is not full. Like, I. I need some things for myself as well. We all do.

[Raina Greenberg]

I feel for people though. They're like, I have to be a parent. I have to have a relationship with my spouse. I gotta work now. I gotta work my friends into this. Like, yeah, that is so much to take on. I mean, I feel for people. They're like, I gotta do all these, these things.

[Nedra Towal]

It is a lot.

[Raina Greenberg]

It's a lot. And even promising yourself like once a month that you'll go out and have something outside of all those people, like your job, your spouse, your children, I think is great. I don't know how I would find the time, honestly.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah. And I think people understand, especially kids. Kids. And then those early days of falling in love. And you really want to prioritize that person. And my best friend since I was a kid has three children. One's a step, a child and she has a special needs son. And she. What she did to make it. I could cry to be there for me for every day of the Bachelorette, every day of the wedding because she came in a day early. Like, I think some people were like, is she gonna make it? She's. Because they know what she's dealing with. And it had to be so planned in advance. The whole family had to rally around and watch the kids. Her husband came too. Had to rally around and watch the kids. And like everyone had to step in and make sure she, she could get away.

[Nedra Towal]

Is she taking new best friends seriously? I mean, it sound like amazing.

[Ashley Hess]

It meant the. The world. And she can't up and go on a trip here and there. She doesn't always have that luxury. But I think those things that meant the world to me, it didn't go unnoticed, of course. And you and all my friends were like, wow, she's first person here, last person to leave. And she's got the most on her plate.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

And sometimes you just have to touch to do that.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah. I think a part of most relationships is inconvenience. If you're not being inconvenienced, you might be the problem. I want to say people can't even allow you.

[Ashley Hess]

Right. That's what we talk about, the protecting your peace. Has it gone too far?

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah, it's like if. No, if you have not. I mean, inconvenience. Mirror, mirror on the wall.

[Ashley Hess]

Right. Like, I do think about Corey, like what she had to go through to make that happen. It must have had to be spreadsheets on what parents are coming. Like, it must have been. To organize them to get away for four or five days is an insane amount of logistics. That same with my brother. Bringing two kids to la. All the things, the cars, the car seats. Like, that is. Was so much admin for them to come, and they made it work. And, like, he wasn't complaining to me, but we talked about how annoying it is to do this, to show up.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah. Wow. And I think even scheduling a night out with friends, you guys are on these texts. The back and forth.

[Raina Greenberg]

I can't.

[Nedra Towal]

Of scheduling with a lady.

[Raina Greenberg]

I can't.

[Nedra Towal]

Is like, not a lady. Let's stop. Let's stop the friendship. Because we can't even be women. We just have so. Oh, no, not on the 17th. Because on the 17th, at 5, I have this. Oh, no, not on the 22nd. It's like a constant thing of just trying to get those schedules together so when you can get out with that person, it's like, what a gift that we have worked so hard to be here. We worked so hard to be here together. Let's just say together we deserve a reward because we have really strategically placed our schedules on the same day. That is. That is worthy of praise. Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

And put your phones away. Like, soak it up.

[Nedra Towal]

Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

Because it's not gonna happen for another year.

[Nedra Towal]

This is our Golden Globes. Like, this moment.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Nedra Towal]

Is our award, our Super Bowl.

[Raina Greenberg]

I think we've, like, lost friends to their kids. And I am that. That's fine. I'll get them back at some point. I'm not worried about that. You have a past for life. I couldn't do what you do. I don't want to do what you do. It's. I spent an hour alone with a kid. It was too much for me. So.

[Ashley Hess]

Because you don't want to hang out with kids, that's your boundary.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's my boundary. I don't hang out with your kid. But for an hour. For an hour, it's fine. But, like, when you lose friends to. Because they are so codependent on their relationship, it's, like, really disappointing. We've seen it in our adult. I mean, I really thought this was, like, a high school college type thing, but we lost a friend to her relationship.

[Nedra Towal]

Lost a friend.

[Raina Greenberg]

And it's pretty crazy to me. And I do see how people are. Like, I have wanted love and partnership for so long, and I will do anything to protect this. This is the most important thing in the world, but it is so Disappointing. And, I mean, I think that you do have to just force yourself to, like, schedule plans with friends.

[Nedra Towal]

But let's say we have a friend like that, and it was a great friendship, and then they got married or they did whatever, and it's like, oh, my gosh, this has really shift. Does that mean the friendship is over or is it in another season?

[Ashley Hess]

Exactly.

[Nedra Towal]

Like, maybe this is now the friend who you speak to by text four times a year. Or maybe you get together once a year versus you see each other every weekend. Like, it doesn't mean, like, this person is gone. It's like, this is a new iteration of our friendship. Right. Like, we're just doing something different in this season. And when this person comes around, you know, maybe I'll be here, maybe I won't. But it doesn't mean that we have to completely lose the connection. It's just in a different place. And if I need that type of friendship with another person, I have to go find that person in the world. It's not this person anymore. And that's okay.

[Ashley Hess]

And that's for you to decide.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Cause when they show up, are they a value add?

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Scale of 1 to 10, how much do they bring to the party?

[Nedra Towal]

Well, I have several friends with no kids who are happily without children, and they don't even want any kids. And I don't try to make them have a relationship where it's like, well, can I bring my kids and my kids want to come up? It's like, our friendship is about us as adults, our history. It doesn't have to be this. I'm never inviting you to my kid's birthday party. Like, it's not my expectation.

[Ashley Hess]

I love you for that because I always want to be around my nephews. That's my family. And those are the only Corey's kids too, I guess. But other than that, I remember getting lunch with a friend. Can I bring my son? No.

[Nedra Towal]

No. Why is he here?

[Ashley Hess]

Let's reschedule. Six. Six years old or whatever. The.

[Nedra Towal]

What?

[Ashley Hess]

I. I don't want to go to lunch with you and your kid.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah. I have other friends who are childless, who are, like, sending my kids Christmas gifts and they want to talk to them on the phone. So it's like. Like, what is the relationship not my expectation for. Every single human is not the same.

[Ashley Hess]

I guess it just. Yeah, it depends on the kid.

[Nedra Towal]

Everyone is unique. And the kid's personality sometimes just like your personality. There are certain kids who have a certain warmth with certain friends and not others.

[Ashley Hess]

But Also the parent. Because however you want to parent, that's your business. But there are parents who, if the kid is there, that's their attention. You can't tell a story. You can't get their focus.

[Nedra Towal]

You must know my kids.

[Ashley Hess]

Are you that parent?

[Nedra Towal]

No, no, no. I said the kids. I'm not the parent. I'm trying to ignore them, but they're talking.

[Ashley Hess]

Thank you. And then there's parents that are kind of do the whole, like, mommy's talking, and you got to figure your shit out, and you have to entertain yourself. And it's just. I've been on both sides of it, and it's really hard to be with a parent that is that the second the kid needs their attention, they are on it.

[Nedra Towal]

Well, what I've said to my kids is, do I disturb your play date? Do I disturb your play dates? When you have your. They'll have their friends over and they're watching, I don't know, zombies or. What's the new thing that keeps getting.

[Ashley Hess]

K Pop Demon Hunters.

[Nedra Towal]

K Pop Demon Hunters. And y' all have popcorn and all this stuff. I don't come in there and sit in the middle of y' all and start bringing up random stuff. Don't do that to me. Don't do that to me. I don't do it to you. My kids are 9 and 12. Yeah, so we're at that phase. But if you. You let them, they will certainly be like, mom, Mom, I don't do that to you. I just want you to see how I'm not treating you that way. Now, if you want equal treatment. If you want equal treatment, I could give it. You keep interrupting me. Wait till Christian comes down this street. I'm gonna be all up in there.

[Ashley Hess]

Oh, my God, I love that.

[Nedra Towal]

And the other day, when, yeah, I'm like, you have to be respectful. My friends are not over all the time. So when they come over, find your business.

[Raina Greenberg]

Do you see people create, like, unhealthy dependency with their children? I'm sure you do.

[Nedra Towal]

Yes. Yes.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, can't break that.

[Nedra Towal]

Like, yeah, I'm watching this show. Tiffany Haddish has some, like, adventure show or something, so I'm watching it, and one of her friends on the show, I think, moves to the state that her daughter goes to college, and all of them are like, oh, my gosh, like, you're codependent. You need to get a life. Like, why are you.

[Raina Greenberg]

You. Those parents are so interesting to me.

[Nedra Towal]

Why are you in the same state as her? I don't have Enough information to make an assessment. You know, I'm. I'm thinking, what if her child really does have some, some like emotional issues and need that level of support? I don't know. Or it could be the mom where she's like, oh, God, oh my gosh, my baby is gone. I want to be there all the time. So, yeah, parents have it. That's helicopter parenting. Right. That's the parenting where, you know, you have these kids going off to college and they can't survive that first semester because they don't know how to do anything outside of the parent helping them. So, yeah, of course people have dependency issues with their kids.

[Raina Greenberg]

You do see that. And girls are like, I call my mom five times a day. I could never related to anything less in my entire life. Maybe we would talk once every two.

[Ashley Hess]

Weeks like I used to when I was younger. Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I just, I. To your point earlier, like, it depends on how you digest that relationship. Some. For some people, that's very healthy and they love the safety net of their mom being their best friend. For other people, that would really annoy them and erode their boundaries. So I guess it's just how you digest it and how your partner digests it. I can see a partner being like, I would like to not have your parents involved in every single thing unless.

[Nedra Towal]

Their parents are highly involved and then it wouldn't be a problem.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, God, what does that look like to a couple where both are enmeshed with their parents? What are we even doing?

[Raina Greenberg]

But if you date anybody like that, it's just like, I gotta call my mom or a sibling every time anything happens.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, I, I mean, my college boyfriend was like, we really like that with his mom. But we're so young too. It's. I can't do it. It's not going to be for me. My parents aren't like that. We don't have that relationship dynamic. I have a guy friend who I've only ever been platonic with and I've spent time with him. And it's fascinating to watch his relationship with his parents. And it is nonstop all day. Gotta talk to the whole family. And it's a problem with his relationships because the mom is the top. She comes first above anyone else, including a romantic partner. And I have mixed thoughts on this too. I'm just like, I don't think a romantic partner gets to come in and be top priority over the family. You've had your whole life and all these things.

[Raina Greenberg]

This is just problematic.

[Ashley Hess]

But it, yeah, like, so we want to talk about this, like, maybe we start with family, like a meshment with family. And if you're dating someone like that, can you get through it? What can you offer to those people who are dealing with this?

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah, I think you have to tread lightly because you're new in the system. This is the way that they've operated. Perhaps you see it as a problem at first sight. However, I think you have to really get into the system to understand what that is. Sometimes our initial reaction, especially you think of a person who's hyper independent, they do everything themselves. They don't have that like family loyalty and tie. And then they get into a relationship with someone who's talking to their parents several times a day. Of course they're gonna see that as a huge problem. But is it possible? It's healthy love. So I think it's what's happening in those interactions. Can this person make a decision without their parents? Yes. But do they wanna have somebody to talk through it with them? You know, I think that part of it matters, like, or is it like, okay, mom, I'm about to like, is it a reporting or is it an informing and notifying? So, you know, I think it's, it's really based on, you know, what we need in a relationship. And we have to think about how we attach to people and how others may attach. And maybe it is unhealthy and maybe it's not.

[Raina Greenberg]

That's a good point. I mean, my sister in law and her mom talk four times a day. I think it's cute. I think it's adorable. And her parents don't erode the boundaries of her romantic relationship with my brother. Right. I think that they're like, there's like a clear boundary, like he still comes first to the marriage and things like that. But yeah, her mom calls her all day, every day. I had a sandwich, this is what I put on it. It's cute, it's nice. Yeah, it's a nice support system for her.

[Nedra Towal]

And sometimes when we see people in relationships that we don't have, we automatically think of it as negative. So if I'm dating some person who has this relationship with their mom and I really talk to my mom, it's like, why are you talking to your mom every day? You know, it's like, what's wrong with you? And it's like, maybe not nothing. Like, this is just our cadence. It feels good. Like, what is the unhealthy part? Is she coming over and like rearranging your drawers or something?

[Ashley Hess]

But if that's the case. And it is like you said, they can't make a decision without them. I mean, where do you go? Do you just kind of lead with curiosity? Do you start asking questions like, you can't come in guns blazing. You can't, you can't act like this. You're obsessed with your mom. Like what you.

[Nedra Towal]

Obviously, I think it's curiosity.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Nedra Towal]

Because that person has had such a long term relationship with their family. Your partner is not going. Going to hear you being critical right off.

[Ashley Hess]

Totally.

[Nedra Towal]

So you have to tree it lightly and how you bring that up, but definitely bring it up, but in a curious sort of way. And you know, hopefully they'll start to see it.

[Ashley Hess]

Well, that's. I know we've talked about that with Lori Gottlieb. Like, if you can plant a seed.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

That they could reflect to.

[Nedra Towal]

Right. Versus like, here's your problem in your relationship with your mom. Like, most people aren't going to take that. But if you're saying just like, hey, I noticed that, you know, we were making this a decision about buying a new car and I thought we were talking through it. Then you, you know, caught your mom. Like, what was that about? Like, does she have really good experience on that?

[Raina Greenberg]

Was she paying for this?

[Nedra Towal]

Right.

[Raina Greenberg]

Is she like the dealership? Yeah.

[Nedra Towal]

Like, is she a car dealer? So I don't know, but maybe she is.

[Ashley Hess]

Can we talk a little bit about a meshed friendships?

[Nedra Towal]

Yes.

[Ashley Hess]

And you said something earlier that I want to circle back to when people need space. And that's tough to be in a situation where your friend wants space from you or, you know, the neediness we talk about. So I just think I want him to talk about these, like a mesh friendship relationships.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah. Well, we have to choose our words carefully in relationships when we want to keep them. And so I don't think we go to people and say, I need space from you.

[Ashley Hess]

Totally. No, I agree that it's like, that.

[Nedra Towal]

Is not what to say. But I think sometimes we do say that. And what we need to reflect on is why we have that need within ourselves. I am doing a lot of healing work. I am, you know, having some personal shifts and I'm noticing that I need more time with myself. What that will look like for us is maybe we don't do every Thursday whatever we were doing. Right. So I might not be available for this thing. That's not making it about them, that's.

[Raina Greenberg]

Making it about you.

[Nedra Towal]

About you and what you have going on. Not every week. I don't want to Go to this thing with you. Whoa. Way to ruin a friendship, right? Yeah, but there are ways to let a person know that, you know, based on the shifts that are happening in my life, I, you know, this is how it will reflect on you. Like, things are changing. I was going to Pilates for, like, I don't know, six months with a friend, and she was like, upon reflection, this is not really on my driving path.

[Raina Greenberg]

Aw, that's sad.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, she's like, haiti is my Pilates friend.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah. She's like, this is not on my driving path. And getting here from work and changing in the bathroom, like, it's just. It's just a thing. It's stressful. Like, I'm bowing out of Pilates. And I was like, okay, cool. But I'm seeing her tonight, so.

[Ashley Hess]

Okay, good.

[Raina Greenberg]

Okay. You other plan you have to follow.

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah, you're gonna go to the comedy show.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yes.

[Nedra Towal]

She's here. Ok. Yeah. So it was. It wasn't a ruined friendship. It's just like, I get that my day is a little more flexible, so at five o', clock, I'm free to, you know, I might be done at three. So I'm going to Pilates now. That's fine. But she's working all day and getting off at five and going straight to Pilates, you know, so that's a different lifestyle. I understand that. Thank you for coming for the six months. That was kind of you to make that stretch. We can find other things to do during other times where it's more suitable.

[Raina Greenberg]

When I want space, I take it. There's nobody that I've ever been annoyed with that's been like, Rana seems so great with me. Like, I. I do wear it on my sleeve. But it has been a lifelong battle for me to address those things early.

[Nedra Towal]

Dip them in the butt.

[Raina Greenberg]

Like, I'll take the space, but people feel that I'm taking the space from them. And it has been like a lifelong battle for me. I mean, you and I talked about this a couple summers ago with your book drama Free, and me avoiding conflict with my family and my brother saying to me, like, when you don't talk to me because you feel like you don't love me. And he. I just thought I was, like, sparing him the uncomfortable conversations, but he was like, no, if I'm pissing you off, just tell me, right? I'm an adult. I'll get through it, you know, and trusting that other people can hear those things and it's not going to ruin the whole relationship. We had a Friend recently talking to me, and she said, I avoid conflict. And I said, what are you scared of? And she said, that people will leave me. And trusting that people aren't going to leave you. I think that it is like a lifelong battle to, like, take the space and be able to be like, I need some space.

[Nedra Towal]

Absolutely.

[Ashley Hess]

People, in a nice way. Yeah. What do you say to the best friends, the enmeshed friends, and on the other side, where the one feels like she's losing her best friend to, let's just say a guy romantic relationship or whatever. Whatever it may be.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah. I don't think you feel the void, but I think you incorporate more people. People have the option to want something different for themselves. There are some things that we can't give our friends sex, you know, So I think it's one of those things that we have to acknowledge. I get it. Like, you want that companionship. You want that level of relationship, and I am not providing that. I need to maybe figure out, is this available with someone else in my life or do I need to incorporate some new people? It is not an attack on our friendship. This is a growth thing for you, and I'm proud of you. I want you to be married. And also, this is how it will impact our relationship.

[Ashley Hess]

And can you have a standing weekly date? You know, like, we've all been in those situations where you're like, I'm losing her, you know, and, you know, maybe I'll get her back. Like, I feel like this is. We were in our 20s a lot, and so is there a world in which you're like, can we do dinner? Can we do Pilates? Can we do dinner? Can we have a.

[Raina Greenberg]

Can you meet me a halfway?

[Ashley Hess]

Yeah.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Can I rely on you to.

[Raina Greenberg]

Because you're right. Like, we can't give our friends this romantic relationship unless we want to. But you don't begrudge your friend for going to find that you're probably happy for them. But to feel like I've lost the friendship because of that is probably a pretty common experience.

[Nedra Towal]

Well, yeah. Or can I come over for dinner? You know, it's not always going out. Maybe, you know, your husband goes in the other room or your boyfriend goes in another room and we sit down and we do our dinner and that's our night. Maybe that's the way you. You fold this. This third person into the relationship. So.

[Ashley Hess]

Right.

[Nedra Towal]

You know, can we have something consistent? Yeah. But it's. It's really on the two people in a relationship to figure out what that new Cadence will be. And that requires some discomfort, maybe with some conversations.

[Ashley Hess]

That's a great call. Even when I reflect on friends, when I felt like that I'd be hanging out with them and their partner, I'd be like, I'm coming over. You know, like, every day of my.

[Raina Greenberg]

Life in LA is third wheeling, fifth wheeling. I don't have a single single friend. I don't have a single. A single single friend in LA anymore. All of them. All of my. All of my social activities are with my friends and their husbands and boyfriends.

[Nedra Towal]

And I was.

[Raina Greenberg]

I don't have a single activity ever. Friday night, Saturday morning, I'm like, I.

[Ashley Hess]

Can'T push back on this.

[Raina Greenberg]

I mean, I. I mean, I'm gonna move back to New York, and Ashley's gonna come with me. I'm. I am really lucky. I was thinking the other day, I'm really lucky that my friends have chosen partners that are really wonderful. And all of our friends here have husbands, fiance's boyfriends that I really like. I've. It's important to me to ask them questions and engage with them because, like, that is my life here right now.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

And it's like, I look at when we're hanging out as just five friends, you know, like two dudes, three women. Like, it's just like, not two couples who were on each other, sitting on each other's laps, you know, Like.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I get.

[Ashley Hess]

If you're around a couple that's really, truly making you feel like a third wheel or a fifth wheel. But, like, luckily, when I. And it's like that, it's just we're all. Yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

And I understand that. Like, I have to tell myself, adults want to be with their partners. Adults want to be with their.

[Nedra Towal]

It's just a new. A new friend.

[Raina Greenberg]

Yeah.

[Nedra Towal]

Yeah. It's like an addition to your friendship. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Raina Greenberg]

Or you went back to New York to go find your.

[Ashley Hess]

But there's also nothing wrong with saying, let's do a girls night. And I need that. It's. It really fills my cup. Like, I don't want him to be with, like, attached to the hip. He doesn't want that either. If you say, can we make it a girls night? To your friends who are partnered and they are offended or pushed back, I don't really know what to tell you to do there, because girls nights have been around since the history of time. Like, that's. That's. No, that doesn't mean I hate your man. It means, can we just do a girls night?

[Nedra Towal]

Absolutely.

[Raina Greenberg]

Have a Good balance of both.

[Ashley Hess]

So maybe we close out with what healthy dependency looks like. And I think we've touched on it.

[Nedra Towal]

I think it means that you show up in your relationships in a reflective, boundaried. Boundaried on both sides and considerate way. We have to have care in our relationships. We have to accept help. We have to also offer it. We have to be willing to support people and we will need support. So I think things in terms of dependency. We have to think about the person who we're in a relationship with. There are some people where our dependency cannot be healthy. It can only be codependent. Right. And then we may have to adjust there. But in most of our interactions, if we can strive to have some healthier situations, I think that's really helpful and it makes us feel more connected. So our goal should be to have not necessarily more people, but deeper connections.

[Ashley Hess]

I love that. I love it.

[Raina Greenberg]

Nedra, every time you're on the show, it's so amazing for us.

[Ashley Hess]

Is there anything else you want?

[Raina Greenberg]

No, I think that's great. We want people to buy the book and read the book. It's a great book. All of your books, honestly are fantastic. Whether you're dealing with boundaries or dependency. Anything you want to address in your life, I mean buy them all. But also your Instagram is a wealth of great information. So tell people where they can find you and anything else.

[Nedra Towal]

Yes. So I have a website, nedratowab.com and then my Instagram, my threads, all the places. Nedratowab. Okay.

[Raina Greenberg]

And congrats on the new book, the balancing act. You guys can get it now.

[Ashley Hess]

It's so funny. I remember how I saw you. Do you remember? I was home during COVID I was at my parents house in Delaware. You were on the tv. My mom was like maybe you should watch this. It seems relevant to what you do. And we had wanting to do an episode on boundaries. That's how it happened. And I remember like today show or some news, Good morning America or whatever. Kelly somebody, I don't know.

[Raina Greenberg]

Did you put out a book that year in 2020?

[Nedra Towal]

2020. 2021. But 2020 I could have been on TV talking about it, I guess. Yeah, yeah.

[Ashley Hess]

Anyway, I just had a flashback of just that's how I saw you for the first time. She'd be good. Okay guys. And you know where to find us. Girls gotta eat.com. girls gotta eat podcasts on Instagram and Tick Tock. I'm Ash hess. Raina is raina.greenberg. raina greenberg.com for her tour tickets and you can subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend and we will see you Thursday.

[Raina Greenberg]

Have a good week guys.

[Ashley Hess]

Bye Sa.