Fighting Poverty with Direct Cash Transfers, Featuring Jesús Gerena

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Fighting Poverty with Direct Cash Transfers, Featuring Jesús Gerena"

Episode Release Date: October 17, 2024

Hosts: Phil Buchanan and Grace Nicollette
Guest: Jesús Gerena, CEO of UpTogether and Board Member at the Center for Effective Philanthropy (CEP)

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1. Introduction to Jesús Gerena and His Mission

The episode begins with Phil Buchanan and Grace Nicollette welcoming Jesús Gerena, the CEO of UpTogether, a nonprofit organization that provides direct cash transfers to individuals and families in the United States. With 14 years at UpTogether and a decade of prior experience with the Hyde Square Task Force in Jamaica Plain, Jesús brings a wealth of knowledge on poverty alleviation and effective philanthropy.

[00:28] Jesús Gerena:
"When we invest in people, they do more, they generate more income, they stabilize their housing as well as invest inside of their community. All of that generates more impact for those communities and for our government than everything that we have to do when we deprive people and they don't have enough."

2. Jesús Gerena's Personal Journey

Jesús shares his personal story, illustrating the stark contrast between his upbringing in Puerto Rico and his family's subsequent move to Amherst, Massachusetts. This transition exposed him to the disparities between resource-rich and impoverished communities, shaping his commitment to placing young people at the center of community-driven change.

[02:00] Jesús Gerena:
"I was born in the island of Puerto Rico... When my parents divorced, all that fractured and we sort of fell in a spin... the stark difference of being in a community in Puerto Rico where there was a great need, very little resources and opportunity to being brought to western Massachusetts, to a community that had great resources and very little need, fundamentally changed our trajectory as a family."

3. Challenging Common Assumptions About Poverty

Grace Nicollette prompts Jesús to discuss the often unexamined assumptions donors make about the poor. Jesús emphasizes the prevalent deficit mindset, where poverty is seen as a personal failure rather than a result of systemic issues.

[04:46] Jesús Gerena:
"People think about those who are struggling with financial hardship and are living in poverty, that somehow there's fault for those conditions... Are we creating resource-rich environments? Are we investing in people?"

He advocates for an asset-based framing, recognizing the strengths and abilities of individuals rather than focusing solely on their deficiencies.

[05:59] Jesús Gerena:
"We need to begin to push at that concept and begin to help people first understand, hey, who are these folks again? What are their abilities and what can they do for themselves?"

4. UpTogether’s Approach to Direct Cash Transfers

Jesús outlines UpTogether's model, centered around Community Choice and Capital. The organization provides participants with $500 each month for 18 to 24 months, equating to $9,000 to $12,000 total. These funds are distributed via direct deposit or prepaid cards, allowing individuals the autonomy to decide how best to use the money to meet their needs.

[10:13] Jesús Gerena:
"We have our UpTogether fund which essentially is set up for 18 months, $500 a month for individuals to be able to receive... people spend the money on basic needs, their utility bills, food, care for their children, being able to purchase a car, you name it."

5. Addressing Donor Concerns and Demonstrating Impact

Phil Buchanan raises potential donor skepticism, such as fears of misuse of funds or the temporary nature of the assistance. Jesús counters these concerns by presenting evidence from extensive research partnerships, highlighting that approximately 90% of funds are used for essential needs. He also points to long-term positive outcomes, such as individuals stabilizing their finances and pursuing personal development.

[13:30] Jesús Gerena:
"People see this ... when people are given these opportunities to begin to reevaluate and think and again that they have the space to do it is really important."

6. Balancing Philanthropy and Government’s Role in Systems Change

The conversation shifts to the interplay between philanthropy and government intervention. Jesús argues for a new social contract, advocating for policies like universal healthcare and childcare to complement philanthropic efforts. He underscores that while philanthropy can provide immediate relief, systemic changes are essential for sustainable poverty alleviation.

[16:38] Jesús Gerena:
"We need an absolutely new social contract... Poverty is a policy choice."

7. Countering the Effective Altruism Debate

Phil Buchanan introduces the debate around Effective Altruism, which often prioritizes international aid over domestic philanthropy based on cost-effectiveness. Jesús challenges this perspective by highlighting the unique and broader needs within the U.S., such as housing and basic necessities, advocating for direct investments domestically.

[26:55] Jesús Gerena:
"Internationally, it's usually around more on the farming or entrepreneurship... In the United States, you have a much broader set of circumstances that people are trying to address..."

8. Overcoming Paternalism and Building Trust

Jesús emphasizes the importance of trusting recipients and avoiding paternalistic attitudes. He explains that UpTogether does not micromanage how funds are used, fostering a relationship of respect and autonomy.

[30:23] Jesús Gerena:
"When it comes to individuals who already have assets and that we're investing in, we never ask that question... The overwhelming amount of folks are going to continue to do the right things and care for the right things."

9. The Role of Media and Public Perception

The discussion touches on the media's tendency to highlight nonprofit scandals, which can fuel distrust. Jesús advocates for showcasing positive stories and evidence-based outcomes to shift public perception towards recognizing the efficacy of direct cash transfers.

[34:38] Jesús Gerena:
"Philanthropy has grown tremendously over the decades as we've invested in that right... We need to start to model philanthropy differently."

10. Hope and Optimism for the Future

In closing, Jesús shares his hope rooted in witnessing tangible positive changes through UpTogether’s initiatives and the strong community bonds that sustain both his personal life and professional mission.

[40:39] Jesús Gerena:
"When you see those reactions and those connections... there's something very powerful and moving about the work, your leadership and the way you describe it."

He underscores the importance of community support and personal relationships, which he believes are fundamental to long-term fulfillment and societal improvement.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jesús Gerena at [00:28]:
  "When we invest in people, they do more, they generate more income, they stabilize their housing as well as invest inside of their community."

• Jesús Gerena at [05:59]:
  "We need to begin to push at that concept and begin to help people first understand, hey, who are these folks again?"

• Jesús Gerena at [16:38]:
  "We need an absolutely new social contract... Poverty is a policy choice."

• Jesús Gerena at [30:23]:
  "We never ask that question... The overwhelming amount of folks are going to continue to do the right things and care for the right things."

• Jesús Gerena at [40:39]:
  "When you see those reactions and those connections... there's something very powerful and moving about the work."

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Conclusion

This episode of "Giving Done Right" provides a comprehensive exploration of direct cash transfers as a strategy for poverty alleviation in the United States. Through Jesús Gerena's insights and experiences, listeners gain a deep understanding of the benefits, challenges, and systemic changes necessary to make effective philanthropy impactful. The discussion encourages donors to rethink traditional approaches, fostering a more trusting and empowering relationship with those they aim to help.

Transcript

[Fetzer Institute]

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[Jesus Jerena]

What we see is when we invest in people is that they do more, they generate more income, they stabilize their housing as well as invest inside of their community. All of that generates more impact for those communities and for our government than everything that we have to do when we deprive people and they don't have enough.

[Grace Nicollette]

Welcome to Giving Done Right, a show with everything you need to know to make an impact with your charitable giving. I'm Grace Nicollette.

[Phil Buchanan]

And I'm Phil Buchanan. Today we are excited to welcome Jesus Jerena to the show. Jesus runs the nonprofit Up Together, which provides direct cash transfers to individuals and families in the U.S. jesus serves on the center for Effective Philanthropy's board. He's someone we know well. He's very knowledgeable about poverty alleviation and what actually works.

[Grace Nicollette]

We had ended season two with an interview on direct cash transfers in an international context with the co founder and chairman of GiveDirectly, Paul Niehaus. And we wanted to bring someone in to talk about the domestic context. And really there's no one better to discuss this with than Jesus.

[Phil Buchanan]

Welcome, Jesus.

[Jesus Jerena]

Oh, thank you so much. I'm really excited to have this conversation and get to share a little bit more about our work.

[Phil Buchanan]

What's your story, Jesus? How did you come to this work?

[Jesus Jerena]

So I've been doing this specifically with Uptogether for the last 14 years and have served as the CEO now for the last seven years. Prior to that, I had the privilege of working with an organization called the Hyde Square Task Force in Jamaica plain for about 10 years. And I mentioned the task force first because my roots started in organizing in Boston with young people and specifically looking at the different inequities that existed between those wealthier neighborhoods in Boston versus the more impoverished and less invested communities and for putting young people at the center to be able to move and and drive that change. And for me, that was really important as I left college. I share a little bit of my trajectory here. I was born in the island of Puerto Rico, my parents who were 19 when I had my brother and I'm the youngest of three and I'm 22 by the time I came along. And that meant that they struggle But I didn't know that struggle because we had a really vibrant community of folks that really care for us and provided for us. And when my parents divorced, all that fractured and we sort of fell in a spin. Right where my mom, as she was our full time caretaker, also was trying to go back to school and working part time and those things, that struggle just was not working. And so eventually she followed her sister and brought us to Amherst, Massachusetts. And so the stark difference of being in a community in Puerto Rico where there was a great need, very little resources and opportunity to being brought to western Massachusetts, to a community that had great resources and very little need, fundamentally changed our trajectory as a family.

[Phil Buchanan]

So you're 10 years old and you'd show up in Western Mass. Yeah, small town.

[Jesus Jerena]

That's exactly right. Yep.

[Phil Buchanan]

Quiet place. I've spent a lot of time there. Not very diverse. That must have been a huge transition.

[Jesus Jerena]

It was, it was absolutely huge. And it was also February, so within I think a couple of weeks, we got our first major snowstorm.

[Phil Buchanan]

That's a shock to the system.

[Jesus Jerena]

I had no idea. Yes. I had no idea what was going to happen. But you know, I will add that soon after that, the little Puerto Rican community that we had in Amherst came through our doors and were really welcoming. And what we had lost in Puerto Rico, we began to gain back.

[Grace Nicollette]

One of the reasons why we wanted to have you on is you've done so much thinking about, talking about and working on the unexamined assumptions that donors and us in society we often make about the poor and what they need. And I just was wondering if you could just tell us a little bit about what you see as the disconnect.

[Jesus Jerena]

People think about those who are struggling with financial hardship and are living in poverty, that somehow there's fault for those conditions and we have to do something to help them and correct them so that they can better through thrive and meet opportunity where. And again, coming back to my own story is like, well, hold on. Are we creating resource rich environments? Are we investing in people? Are we recognizing their abilities, their strengths? Then ask the question if they need something else. Right? But recognize that there are system failures at play that continuously put people in that position of struggle. That's a huge miss. But then they also are like, oh, and we can help them, right? Like people can't help themselves and we can help them. I think that my own experience in this work has been that acknowledgement that people actually have great abilities if we put them in a position to be able to do something is Always where we should start rather than what can we do to fix them.

[Grace Nicollette]

Right. So we often instead of having like an asset based framing towards people and communities, we have a deficit frame framing.

[Jesus Jerena]

That's right. And I think that part of that is that constant feeling of wanting to help, which I think a lot of people in this sector coming, wanting to be able to help. And seeing people from this deficit mindset reinforces sort of their own mission and their own personal want to be able to fix people and help them. I think we need to begin to push at that concept and begin to help people first understand, hey, who are these folks again? What are their abilities and what can they do for themselves and how can I be a supporter of their abilities and the way that they want to be able to create change in their lives and in their communities?

[Phil Buchanan]

It's interesting. It challenges a lot of assumptions that people bring to the effort to help or to their work at a nonprofit. It might be a little threatening in a way, right? Like, you don't actually need me. You know what you need? You just need resources.

[Jesus Jerena]

Early on in my work with UpTogether was the biggest challenge. People always be like, who gives you a hard time about this? And the truth is that everybody has a hard time for their own personal reasons. But overwhelmingly, I think for those people who can be seen as more progressive and are philanthropic is the ask of saying, stop helping people, don't need you. Find a different way to support these communities. That becomes really threatening because we've built an industry around that. That doesn't mean that it's going to change overnight because people are still being hurt by systems challenges. The question is, how do we begin to undo those systems challenges in a way that we're not asking the same questions 20, 40, 50 years from now, which has been the case as it relates to the war on poverty as it was launched in the 60s and where we are today. Right.

[Grace Nicollette]

But let's get really practical. I mean, if I'm a donor, how do I make sure I'm not walking into some of those same pitfalls, right? Like how do I ask what they need?

[Jesus Jerena]

We start with putting people right back at the center and maybe by way of introducing a little bit about Up Together's approach, how I started here. So I'm based in Oakland, even though my roots lie in Boston and Puerto Rico, I've been here now for almost a decade. And when Uptogether launched here, then known as the Family Independence Initiative, our founder basically had no answer about how to be able to change the mentalities and the systems that have been creating to affect poverty and its symptoms. And he came back and he was just like, well, I'm not going to get in the way. Let, let's invest in people directly in those communities and just learn from them and see what they tell us when we put them in a position to be able to be seen as the experts with their abilities as well as bringing the investment to them for their time and energy and helping us learn and that simple act for us as an organization. And I think now today across the country we see so many more related efforts in regards to direct giving just change our trajectory in a really meaningful way. But it was that simple approach of I'm not the expert, they are, yeah, let me learn from their communities and their connections, let me invest in that learning. And it absolutely, all of a sudden huge things were being able to be illuminated. But also I think for the people, they began to participate in a new culture that they just weren't used to. And it's that culture that we're trying to help others really understand. And I think from a donor perspective, if you start with saying I don't know and it's okay, I don't know because I know that people who are affected by this know, let me go there, they're the experts.

[Phil Buchanan]

So give us some of the like facts and figures in terms of how it works. How much money are you getting out the door to? How many people? How do you know it's making a difference in their lives? How help us understand. For those who really don't have any idea how UpTogether works, our approach again.

[Jesus Jerena]

Is centered around community choice and capital. And the community component is yes, money is valuable, but the social connections that we have strengthening those, those networks are always going to resource us as well as sustain us long term. And understanding that is really important. Number two choices that again, people are experts and they should be able to identify their own goals and pursue them as they see fit. And third, capital is cash is direct investment. So we have our Up Together fund which essentially is set up for 18 months, $500 a month for individuals to be able to receive. We have an online platform that you can [e-mail] and essentially people can create a basic profile able to surface who that community is and be connected through the platform as well as link whatever their financial institution is so that they can on a monthly basis receive the direct deposit into their account if they choose not to or are unbanked for whatever Reason they can also receive a prepaid card that they get in the mail and it's re upped every month. Over an 18 month period of time, people receive about $9,000. Sometimes we extend it to 24 months and it's 12,000 DOL. We've gone up to about $1,000. There's certain donors who know that by giving more, more happens. And so we're able to change either time or dollar amount variables as our partners think best to their being able to give. And all of those pieces help us continue to build on the field of the impact that these dollars have.

[Grace Nicollette]

And what do folks usually spend the funds on?

[Jesus Jerena]

Overwhelmingly, people spend the money on basic needs, their utility bills, food, food, care for their children, being able to purchase a car, you name it. Actually, it's pretty diverse. But again, if you are struggling with being low income, with sort of the hardship that that brings in a city that is expensive, such as Oakland, and you're making 30, $40,000 a year or even less, right? What you're doing is negotiating on a month to month basis how to be able to make those dollars stretch in a way that can support you, right. And make ends meet to the best of the resources that you're receiving. So all of a sudden, if you got $9,000, an extra $500 a month, you get to negotiate a little differently. And it begins to create a space for people to start saying, okay, now I can pay my bill here. Oh, now I can actually get fresh vegetables in my household because their cost is not prohibitive. But it also creates the additional space for you to start thinking, now, how do I make this last? What do I need to do to be able to improve my economic condition long term and use this as that opportunity to be able to change my life in the positive.

[Phil Buchanan]

I would imagine that you encounter from donors or prospective donors a fair amount of cynicism and a desire to say, well, how do I know that that's really going to happen? Right? Like, how do I know that this isn't just a band aid? It makes 18 months better, right.

[Grace Nicollette]

Or that someone's going to use the money to buy a TV or something, Right?

[Phil Buchanan]

So how do you counter that? Is there evidence to suggest that there's a long term impact beyond the discrete period of time where they're receiving the funding?

[Jesus Jerena]

So we collect data over that time from the individuals and we've partnered with researchers from across the country, whether it's the Urban Institute, UC Santa Barbara center for Guaranteed Income at a UPenn and the Work that they're doing to be able to evaluate a lot of the guaranteed income pilots across the country. And again, like our data consistently tells us, about 90% of the dollars are going to those basic needs. Right. Like that people are meeting. So we have the proof behind it and we're contributing to a field that has over 300 studies already that over and over again. And Grace, as you mentioned, being able to speak with the president of Give directly. Right. Like they also have been contributing as others to the consistency that if you give people money, they not only do the right thing, but they begin to stabilize and think about how to be able to move forward. And also they may need a tv. Right. Like it's okay if they buy a tv. Like that's not right. Everybody has a tv. Right. Like those are not our judgment calls as much as it is to really understand in that trajectory how they continue to be able to move forward.

[Grace Nicollette]

Say more about that because I think donors can sometimes have a sense of paternalism towards communities or even nonprofits in terms of what they can handle or what they deserve. Yeah. How does our attitude need to be.

[Jesus Jerena]

Adjusted to think that for somebody who is a parent, who is working diligently to be able to again sort of overcome whatever challenges, but also meet the opportunities in their lives that somehow they're broken because of their economic condition and I shouldn't be allowed to make choices as their expertise and life experience informs them, I think is exactly right. Chris. It's like it's robbing that knowledge from folks. So there's that piece. I also, when you ask that question, you know, like in my kids school, there's that big sign that says if your revolution doesn't include dance, like I don't want it or something along those lines. But like part of what we're all trying to do is to be able to enjoy one another, enjoy our public spaces, our common spaces, enjoy our free time, while also positively making an impact, a positive impact inside those communities as we choose our work and others have other jobs. And I say that because, like, just because you live in poverty doesn't mean that you shouldn't have joy in your life. And I think that that's a really important point of view to be able to hold.

[Grace Nicollette]

And what do you say when folks come back and say, well, shouldn't this be the government's role? You all are on the front lines and obviously there's a lot of really deeply problematic systems that have kind of brought us to where we are. And so is this just A band Aid and like, how do we think about what's the role of the government versus what's the role of donors in Philanthrop?

[Jesus Jerena]

So we recently have embraced being a systems change organization. I think, Phil, to your question about is this last. We try to help people understand that the 18 month period of time. And I'll share the story of Aisha, who is one of the recipients of a guaranteed income pilot that we did here in Oakland. And she always was like, I won the lottery in a sense. Right. Ended up being $12,000 over two years. I want to make sure I do something that is impactful to our household. And she's a grandmother who had custody of her grandson as well as my community. Right. Like, I see this as a really critical opportunity in that sense. Today. She is working full time now and is in the process of hopefully getting some professional development to get a promotion inside of that job. Her story is not unique in that when people are given these opportunities to begin to reevaluate and think and again that they have the space to do it is really important. Right. Because they're not being crushed by the pressures of not having enough of scarcity. But I also caution. Right. With the issue because not everybody's going to do that. For some people, they may extend it and go back to school so that they can do better in the long term. Right. That the trajectory for everybody is going to be a little bit different. And that's what's important in that way to be able to do. And grace then to your question in regards to government's role. I think we need an absolutely new social contract. We've stopped being able to provide some common goods that benefit everyone. And so when people ask me about what systems change means to me is first is changing the mentality about who doesn't benefit from an economy in an equitable way today. Right. Our wealth redistribution is centered on the top tier of our society. And it doesn't. It's not equitable across the way. So we need to make that equitable. And the way that we can do that and the role that government can play can be an increase of a child tax credit like we did in 2021 in July and took 3 million kids out of poverty overnight. Poverty is a policy choice. Like we could do that, but then we ended it at the end of the year and put those kids back. That divide continues to grow because we're not acting to be able to make these policies that have a positive impact on these metrics permanent. I think that the other is universal health care, universal childcare. There's these components that we know can be conducive to welcoming families, to caring for us as individuals. And yet we continue to like, speak and say, well, no, that's not our responsibility. I would challenge that. I think it is our responsibility. I think it is something that we want from one another, to be able to care for one another in that way.

[Grace Nicollette]

Don't go anywhere more after this break.

[Fetzer Institute]

This episode is brought to you in part by the Fidelity Charitable Catalyst Fund, which believes that when donors and local nonprofits partner together, communities flourish. The fund focuses on elevating organizations that engage donors with education and community connections. Learn [e-mail].

[Grace Nicollette]

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[Phil Buchanan]

I'm having so many feelings about this conversation because what you're saying is so powerful, right? It's about like human dignity. It's about decency. It's about who we are as people. It's about trusting people. It's about not thinking we know what's best for others, thinking we have the answers. It's not assuming that somebody's in a situation because of mistakes they made that they should be punished for, right? Like just challenging all of this really, really negative stuff that permeates our society, I think. But it also brings me back to the time just before the pandemic when there was all of this critique of philanthropy. And from the left, actually, folks like Anand Girdedas and Rob Reich at Stanford and this guy Rutger Bregman, who's a historian, who had like a famous kind of meltdown at Davos where he called the billionaires philanthropy stupid. And now he's said he changed his mind and philanthropy is actually good. And the thing that drove me mad about that whole conversation was this sort of either or simplistic nature of it. And what I love about what you're doing, Jesus, is that you are both dealing with the present day realities that our society, our voters, our electoral System like it hasn't made the right choices. Here we are, let's not just turn our back on the folks who need stuff and say, well, the taxation system should be different, so suffer while we go work on that. But let's neither just do that and not also try to change the system. You're trying to do both. And I assume they inform each other in a virtuous cycle kind of way. But I find so many of the conversations about these issues, it gets boiled down to it's about this or it's about that, but it's about holding both those ideas in your head at the same time. I think.

[Jesus Jerena]

Yeah, absolutely, Phil. I think that our demonstration work, which is our Up Together's approach in action. Right. And those specifics that I shared before, where we're able to make that direct investment, it's absolutely right. It creates an immediate alleviation to some of these systems pressures. Philanthropy plays a critical role, but it's not a sustaining role. So if we don't lift that evidence, if we are not helping share the stories of that impact, if we are not targeting long term what our society can strive to be and support policymakers and government to be able to change, yes, the virtuous cycle will continue, but it will sort of be limited to is impact. And what we want to do is, hey, come learn. Yes, if you really need this evidence, we have it. If you want us to demonstrate it in your city or your state or county or whatever, yes, we'll do it. But you're on the hook now. Like, there's something that then you have to do after those two years. Right. Our families will do their part. Right. Our membership will do their part. They will act in their lives. Then it's up to you. And that action piece to that vision is really important. Right? Like is exactly, I think in a sense, like what ties us. And yet we're not doing a great job of articulating at time. And I feel like as an organization we do have clarity as to. No, actually we can be better people in the way that we care for one another. What's stopping us from being able to do that?

[Grace Nicollette]

I'm curious, like, I think a lot of donors are much more familiar with the evidence base from work abroad with direct cash transfers. How is direct cash transfers in the US the same or different than in an international context? Like, how would you advise donors how to think about the like mix or what are the similarities or differences?

[Jesus Jerena]

Can I lead with my own, I think important point of view which is and I love the evidence, but I want to constantly bring up that overwhelmingly the importance of acknowledging that people are worth investing in because they'll always do something good for themselves is important to acknowledge that it exists. But it's also important to acknowledge that that question shouldn't require evidence. And if you do need that evidence, I'll demonstrate it. We built a wealthy class over the last four decades through direct investment and they've been able to over and over and over again grow their assets in the way that they see fit. And again like that equitable piece. I just want to continue to push at so from an international place. I think a lot of the times it's smaller amount of dollars and it's usually around more on the farming or entrepreneurship. I think in the United States you have much more broader sort of set of circumstances that people are trying to address to better improve their lives. And so I see housing as a huge one. Right. Housing stability Today in the U.S. i think in any major city market forces are really pushing on people's inabilities and we've seen the effects of that through a lot of the homelessness that has increased. The other part around meeting basic needs, whether it's food, right. Like the, the dollar amount that it takes to be able to meet those basic needs in international setting versus here is a lot greater. And so like in all of that I'm always saying, well I give as much like people will say what's the magic number? I was like as much as you want, you're going to have an impact, right. In that way. And then on the other side, what people are building assets around, yes, there's entrepreneurship. Children are huge the way that people are immediately if you talk to most parents, they'll be able to tell you what they're trying to do to be able to improve their kids educational attainment as a way to be able to support them long term housing, health, education for themselves and being able to advance. So like those are like the, the usual like big bucket items that people are thinking and about building. And so when you make investments you're usually going to learn around how people are building long term for those assets.

[Phil Buchanan]

I feel like maybe the elephant in the room in this conversation given you're situated in the Bay Area and we're talking about international context and domestic. There's been so much discussion over the last few years about so called effective altruism which has been defined in a variety of different ways but connects back up I think originally to the philosopher Peter Singer. And the argument has been made that a hyper rational donor who has a fixed amount of money should spend that money internationally because of exactly the dynamic you're describing, which is that it's more expensive to make a difference, shift the trajectory of a life in the United States than it is, say, in sub Saharan Africa. I got a lot of feelings about this argument that I'll try to keep to myself at least for a second. But I'm curious, like, do you get that pushback from folks you're trying to raise money from who say, well, I can make more of a difference in terms of lives affected if I gave elsewhere, so I'm not going to give to you. And if so, like, how do you seek to counter that?

[Jesus Jerena]

Most international funders will stay away from the domestic. So it doesn't happen that we have crossed paths or with donors specifically. We've been asked historically and still to this day in regards to, like, wait, why don't you do this internationally? And I think this gets to your question, Phil, which is actually a lot of that philanthropy is modeled based on here. Right. A lot of the work and the interventions continuously are modeled around the work that goes here. And I do feel like we have a huge opportunity to be able to begin to model something differently and how to shift philanthropy away from those interventions. Always a way of trying to help and creating that paternalistic relationship in whichever area of work that you're doing, I think is really important. But I do get it much more in regards to, like that financial literacy. Oh, well, you're doing this work. How are you going to teach these folks how to manage their money? And there's some similarities in regards to if we invest in people away from programs and services, it's a wasted investment. It's so much more bigger than what these individuals can do. And I think that is really eliminating an understanding of opportunity in individuals rather than opportunity in changing individuals. And that part of it, whether it's here or abroad, has to continuously be challenged. It really is about being able to see these individuals for themselves, for their abilities. Right. It really like, settles to me right back to that point.

[Grace Nicollette]

Jesus, I love the distinction that you just made between changing someone versus asking them what they need. I'm channeling some of our listeners here. Donors really want to know, like, how do I know if this funding is going to be used? Well, I mean, I had mentioned in a previous episode about, you know, the fictional my cousin Ned, who, you know, we all sort of know someone that we have invested in and perhaps they didn't use it in the right way and so dispel some of that fear for us.

[Jesus Jerena]

Just great question. I would lead first with. When it comes to individuals who already have assets and that we're investing in, we never ask that question. And whether or not they use those dollars in a good or positive way or not, it doesn't matter, because we know overwhelmingly there may be a small set of bad actors, but the overwhelming amount of folks are going to continue to do the right things and care for the right things. And actually to the point that philanthropy has grown tremendously over the decades as we've invested in that right, as they've amassed wealth based on those principles that they continuously come back. And I think that, yes, there's going to be the, you know, the cousin Ned or whoever in your family who may squander that. But in a family of 40 or 50, you have one or two individuals. I would argue at all times those other 48 are worth that one or two who may squander the opportunity in a way that you don't see fit. And again, overwhelmingly, our evidence has pointed to the opposite. That is that people see this again, like, it's incredible to think about the fact that gaining a small recognition, in my opinion, of like nine or twelve thousand dollars over two years for hard work is seen as winning the lottery. Right? Like, that's how starved people are for any sort of resourcing to be able to do better. So there's that. The simple answer is, who cares if somebody does the wrong thing with it? In 2020, we put out, as a result of the pandemic, mostly one time payments of $500, a total of about $130 million. And we had one case of fraud to 200,000 individuals.

[Phil Buchanan]

This strikes me as exactly parallel and Jesus. You and I have discussed this to the way funders look at nonprofits and the sense that there is a tendency to generalize from the one brutal anecdote or bad actor. And we see this with Mackenzie Scott's giving. So she's given massive unrestricted gifts. Massive $5 million at the median. We've been studying how organizations are using those gifts. You're one of only 13 organizations, I believe, that have received two massive gifts from Mackenzie Scott, which is awesome.

[Jesus Jerena]

Thank you.

[Phil Buchanan]

We see all kinds of whispered predictions of problems. Nonprofits are going to misuse the resources. They're going to go off the financial cliff. Other funders are going to pull back so far, early days, but we're into year three of data collection on this research. We see very Little evidence of that. We don't see evidence of the kind of problems that people feared or predicted. But of course, it's kind of like voter fraud. You know, it's like there's one incident and people say, oh, we have a problem with our whole electoral system. No, actually, we don't. And I see this from people I really respect who are like evaluation people at foundations who say, well, I heard this thing. And I'll remind them very politely, yes, but if you look across the massive data set, you will know that that's an outlier. It's not a generalizable problem. And I don't know why we're wired to do this as people, but we just sort of, whatever the worst thing is that happened, we assume it's a general problem and that we should make rules to address that worst thing. And I see funders do that in their relationship with nonprofits, just as we are talking about how we do it in our relationship with the ultimate intended beneficiaries of our philanthropy.

[Grace Nicollette]

Well, part of it, Phil, is also the role of the media. Right? Like at the New York Times, the main nonprofit beat person is a nonprofit scandal beat. And so it's really good for us to interrogate, like, what do we actually believe and where is it coming from?

[Jesus Jerena]

Yeah, I really appreciate that. And I think that the individuals, such as I'm a Scott, who can be disruptors, like the status quo. All of a sudden it's like, well, how do we pull back? How do we hold it in a way that helps us maintain our perceived level of control about how this should continue to move forward? And I share that similarly with our work, because I worked, again, for an organization for 10 years who was heavy on programs and services. And I just remember, like, we would level up and be like, oh, the kids need to go to college. Let's hire staff and, like, help train them. Oh, they need support after school. Let's hire staff. And we would fundraise successfully to be able to support and grow those programs. And we would never stop to say, oh, the kids need support to get to college. Who in their lives could do that and support them? What's blocking them from being able to do so? And how do we support them so that they better have the ability, rather than spend a half a million dollars in building programs and services, figure out, is it childcare that they need? Is it somebody who's gone through the process, which we had access to, tutors to connect and volunteers? It didn't always mean having to create an equation to be able to disrupt this inability for people to gain access to those higher ed institutions. Yet the system constantly says that's exactly the only way that you can do this. And so similarly, when you have developed that system through those equations, through logic models that are constantly asking you to be accountable, to deliver, to have this impact against these great odds, then the disruptor becomes threatening to that way of thinking and saying, well, are those logic models worth it or not? And I think similarly going back to that direct investment to people, that disruption has to occur. The second piece is this constant thinking that we don't have enough, that there's a scarcity in resources for us to have a society that cares for people. That's an easy disregard of saying like, oh, you just want to be like high tax and you want to be able to bankrupt the government and continue to take on that. And that's just not true. Because what we see is when we invest in people is that they do more, they generate more income, they stabilize their housing as well as invest inside of their community. All of that generates more impact for those communities and for our government than everything that we have to do when we deprive people and they don't have enough. And that change has to be acknowledged, right? Like we've created this whole system to react to the scarcity that we've created in the first place and continue to concentrate on the behavior of the scarcity rather than the scarcity itself.

[Grace Nicollette]

I feel like there's like almost a beautiful paradox in the work that uptogether does. Jesus. Because your values and the organization's values clearly say that it's more than just the money, right? Like community and people have their own assets to bring to the table. And yet you are bringing pure hard dollars to these families as well. And so it's like a both. And that I think oftentimes we have a time holding in our brains at the same time. But I love how holistic it is, right? Because you see that cash alone is not enough and that people do know the solutions to their own problems and that they need to be in communities. And that combination strikes me as being very rich.

[Jesus Jerena]

And I think about it in my own community in the way that often point to the Harvard study that has been looking at now 70 or 80 years of individuals, how they're able to find fulfillment in their lives, what success means, and at the end of it overwhelmingly is always about those relationships. Everything else fades, right? The money fades, the careers fade, right? Like even the impact. But it's what People say they continue to gain values from these relationships, and that's just that, support them, the personal, the friendships. And I think if we took that and began to apply it as we look at communities with struggle, how would we be different as a result? Yes, money plays a part in that, but there's no way that institutions can support those relationships in the way that people support one another in those relationships. Like, if we take that gain and that understanding and apply it with that lens, yeah, I think we can do a lot better.

[Phil Buchanan]

There's been so much talk about trust in philanthropy, but you and your work, it seemed to me, are embodying trust to a sort of a radical degree. And you're making assumptions about the good in each person, about the decency and humanity of every one of us that honestly feel like they're kind of rowing against the current of our cynical and divided times. And so I think there's something very powerful and moving about the work, your leadership and the way you describe it. But it is coming in a challenging context, a context of division, a context of inequality. So maybe as we wrap up here, I would love to just know for you what keeps you hopeful or optimistic, given the currents that sometimes it feels like we're swimming against.

[Jesus Jerena]

Yeah. And I just want to acknowledge that. I think that especially in the sector, we're all exhausted. There is a burnout that is occurring on top of the hard work that we all do on a day to day basis. There are other issues that are affecting us and the way that we live and think. So we have to find ways to be able to sustain ourselves. Right. For this work to hopefully have the impact that I know it can have. So my hope professionally lies in my continuing to be able to see what happens. Like, we had a gathering of probably about 60 families who have participated in our guaranteed income pilot here in Oakland. And the invitation was like, hey, we need pictures for our website. Would you be willing to take family portraits and then share with us some of those pictures so that we can populate our our website? And by the way, like, you're the beneficiary of these pictures for yourself and we are the beneficiaries of it for our media. Right. And like, you know, it continues to travel true to our values. It's not the first time where we've done this. And as people came in and began to share their stories about what happened for being seen differently, the action of being seen differently through the dollars, following through the connections that people make with one another, like, you sit there and you're just like, this isn't that hard. Right. Like, and that I'm struggling, right, As a sector and trying to like, build this momentum and growing a movement and connecting with folks. Like, so I get that there's hard, but when you see those reactions and those connections. Yeah, no, it's actually not that hard. Right. Like, we have those answers. They're out there. They're hungry for it in that way, we need to get out of our own way. And then the second thing I'd be remiss is like, I have a 14 year old, an 11 year old and a 6 year old, and an incredible wife who supports all of us. Even when you were asking your question, Phil, we have hard conversations at our house. We live in Oakland. There's violence, there's crime. Right. They go to public schools here. And there's tons of challenges with that. And we have those hard decisions. But then we also are like leaning back on people and the connections and the community that we've been able to build. And those things are the one that sustain us. And so I, I would offer both right. And, and the answer in each is the same.

[Grace Nicollette]

Thank you so much, Jesus, for joining us today.

[Phil Buchanan]

Thank you, Jesus.

[Jesus Jerena]

Absolutely. Thank you guys. Really appreciate the conversation.

[Phil Buchanan]

There are so many resources about effective giving on the center for effective philanthropies website cep.org as well as givingdoneright.org where you'll find all our episodes and show notes.

[Grace Nicollette]

You can also send us a [e-mail].

[Phil Buchanan]

We want to thank our sponsors who've made this season possible. The Fidelity Charitable Catalyst Fund, Fetzer Institute, the Walton Family foundation, the John Templeton Foundation, Stupsky Foundation, Colorado Health Foundation, Archstone Foundation. If you like the show, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or invite a friend to listen.

[Grace Nicollette]

Giving Done Right is a production of the center for Effective Philanthropy. It's hosted by me, Grace Nicollette and Phil Buchanan. It's produced by Rococo Punch. Our original podcast artwork is by Jay Cuska. Special thanks to our colleagues Sarah Martin, Molly Heideman, Chloe Heskett, Naomi Rafal and Sei Darling for their marketing, research, writing and logistical support.