C (2:51)

Talk to you both today.

A (2:55)

Working with boards can be amazing, but it can also be tricky. Nick, what do you see most often as the sticking points that leaders have with their boards?

B (3:04)

Yeah, I think you're right. It's a common challenge and sometimes it can be existential. I've seen it from both sides of the fence. I've been a CEO for the last decade at a couple of organisations, a couple of nonprofits, and over the last two decades I've served on seven or eight non profit boards. And I think what at essence, the challenge is that there's this big asymmetry of knowledge and power. Boards have a lot of power. They have the power to hire and fire the CEO, they approve the budget, they approve the strategy, they manage risk. But when it comes to knowledge, it's the CEO and the executive that are working on these issues day in and day out and know what's going on with the organisation and issues and challenges. It doesn't mean that boards don't have expertise, but they're usually volunteers. They may come together every three months or four months. And so you have these big disparities. And I think that's where the challenges can lie. Because when you get big issues arising, and particularly when you get differences of view, then sometimes organizations and the CEOs and the boards can struggle to reach a common view on the best way forward.

A (4:04)

If you had to describe some of the ideal relationships, both that you've seen and that you think about, what are some of the key ingredients that lead to a really strong relationship with a.

B (4:13)

Board at its heart? I think you all have to be focused on the purpose of the organization. That's where the problems have arisen. Not a focus on the purpose of the organization has been a focus on personalities or boards might be getting very active on the management of the organization or CEOs for their own part might be withholding information or trying to unduly manage a board. So what you need is a relation of respect and I think sharing certainly in my case with our CEO. I speak with our board chair. I speak every two or three weeks. I just check in. I want to make sure there are no prizes for the board. I want to make sure that they are fully informed, but I also want to make sure that they are focused on their responsibilities around governance and give me and my team the ability to focus on the day to day management of the organization. So there's a constant discussion going on and I think that's key to making sure the relationship works.

A (5:02)

Yeah, that constant contact is really important. Kathleen, I think you've been on both sides of the table, too, right? You've been a board member as well as a board member.

C (5:09)

Absolutely.

A (5:09)

So tell me more about what would you add to what Nick said?

C (5:13)

Absolutely. I've been on both sides. And, you know, as you said, cece, there's lots of power that comes with boards, but there's also lots of responsibility and a lot of resources, truly. You know, when I think about, from the CEO side, thinking about my board, the organizations that I've run, we rely on our board members, right. Because they're often much more resourced than we are, either through their personal networks, through their corporations that they're tied to. And so we rely on them truly to help provide a level of support that we otherwise might not be able to access in our own way. And so it's not just about the financial support, but truly also strategic support. Thinking about how they're advocating for us on a broader platform as well. Policy, professional development, we were able to receive. For example, we had a McKinsey partner on our board who was able to provide our entire leadership team with a pretty expensive leadership training that we otherwise would not have been able to afford for our entire leadership team. And so when I think about those kinds of resources, those are the kinds of critical things that are important that we rely truly on our board for. So they hold a lot of power, but they also hold a lot of resources for us as well. And I think allowing them the opportunity to share and leverage those resources with us really goes a long way.

A (6:26)

That's so important to think about when you're recruiting your board members, too, to think about what are those skills that they can bring to you? Because you're right, they can be a tremendous asset and save you a lot of money in the end. We have a lawyer on our board, for example, and it's truly useful. Kathleen, your organization is getting ready to expand, and I can imagine that must have led to really serious discussions on the board. You probably needed a lot of strategic help and buy in. Tell us a little bit more about both, what you're doing, first of all. So we understand that, but also how you involve your board.

C (6:57)

So we are excited about our opportunity to truly deepen our presence in the communities that we serve, thinking about bringing programmatic aspects of our organization to the communities that need them most. When we think about barriers to the work, sometimes it's transportation. And so how do we Provide that in the communities that we serve. So we're excited about the community called Englewood. So our social enterprise named Clean Slate, we have a property in the Englewood community which is historically one of the most disinvested communities in Chicago. It is one of the highest rates of unemployment in Illinois of upwards of 22%. And so we were able to think about how might we be able to grow our presence in Englewood to provide more programming to the community and to the residents who quite literally were lined up around the corner asking us, how can we get jobs? How can we access your program? So what we had to do was really bring our board along, as you might imagine. And so there were three kind of key ways that we thought about this. One, Education. We needed to educate the board on truly what is happening in the community. Why is this important? What is the need? Our board members are incredible and they are volunteers that often have very busy full time jobs. So while I am thinking about this every day, they are not thinking about this every day. And so thinking about the opportunity to truly educate them on the need and why this was an opportunity for us. And then the second thing that we did was really think about how might we build buy in, Right. And so rather than sort of, to Nick's point, no surprises, we didn't want to bring this at the board meeting, but what we did was work not just individually, but in smaller committees to socialize what it is that we were trying to do to help really build that case for support. So then by the time we got to the board meeting where we were able to sort of implement our third strategy of kind of painting this broader story, number of board members had already heard about what it is that we were trying to do. We had already built up some support from a number of individuals around the board. And so there's not a big surprise and a big reveal there. And so it's truly an opportunity then to lay the groundwork about what it is that we're trying to do and how we imagine them playing a future role, not just in financially, but also from an advocacy perspective as well. So they helped us identify some checks and balances, the ways that we might be able to protect ourselves, not only financially, but strategically and from a branding perspective as we move forward on this.

A (9:30)

Is there anything from that experience that you would do differently now, having been through it?

C (9:34)

One thing that we considered was we had talked to myself and a couple of other executive team members had done is talk to other CEOs who had gone through Campaigns and the things that they had to do, pitfalls that they fell into. And it might have been good to perhaps have one come in and just share their own about what they did, how they brought their board along, what the things were that they faced in terms of challenges, how they address those challenges, how they mitigated risks. I think hearing from someone who'd been through it for the good, the bad and the ugly, but yet was able to be successful on the other side would have helped, I think, perhaps also just strengthen that argument.

A (10:14)

Yeah, that's a wonderful suggestion. And that's often so helpful to bring in that outside expertise. I have always found that boards love that when hearing from these outside experts. That's a great tip. Clearly, one of the things that count on our boards to do, and you've both talked about this, is to help with fundraising. And yet we did a survey of nonprofit executives, and we found that not many of them said that their board members were enthusiastic about fundraising. Nick, can you talk more about why is it that so many board members struggle with this issue of fundraising? Is it the challenge that the CEO isn't inspiring them enough or that the board members don't want to do it? Talk to me a little bit more about what goes into that equation.

B (10:57)

I think the starting point is, and we'll all agree that fundraising is really hard work. It's a constant demand for most CEOs. And if you want board members involved, first of all, you need to start off with the fact that they're all volunteers. And I think many board members will think, okay, we're volunteers. And the commitment we give you takes the form of participating in the board meetings and engaging with you. And so being asked to do fundraising on top of that is an additional ask. I think the way you address that, if you want your board involved, is obviously set expectations clearly up front. I mean, the best time to get clarity about what you want from your board members is obviously during the recruitment process. Make clear, get feedback from them, ask them about their willingness to involve themselves. Some board members will be well placed to assist, and some just won't be well placed at all. In the Freedom Funds case, we have a donor board. We're a collaborative fund, so a number of organisations came together, they're all funders, so they're making a very significant contribution by their own funding. I suspect some of the and think that's probably enough in terms of their contribution on the fundraising side. But we have other board members and more recent board members who have been outstanding and using Their networks, reaching out, convening, hosting, lending their names. A couple of our board foundation members have a really good reputation in the space, and so having them on a board helps bring others into the space just by virtue of their participation in what we do. So I think there are many ways of doing it. Having worked on and having been on the board of other organizations, in all fairness, I probably haven't contributed a huge amount on the fundraising side. But where I have been able to contribute is invariably by making introductions to people that I know and networks where you think there's a good fit. The benefit of being active in the space and knowing many actors is that you can find ways to make introductions, build relationships which hopefully will lead to a funding outcome.

A (12:48)

Yeah, those introductions are absolutely critical. And I'm not sure board members realize how much just helping you get in the room is what matters. You can do the rest of it, but you need that access. I think that's a huge point.

B (12:59)

We went through recently, a whole kind of mapping exercise. We were trying to make it easier for our board members. So we kind of reached out and tried to identify all of their contacts that might be of use. And then we're able to go back to them and say, well, actually, look, it'd be really helpful if you introduced us to X person. So we're trying to lighten the load in terms of them having to work out who to make introductions to and where it would benefit us.

A (13:18)

Kathleen, anything that you've learned from this fundraising effort and ways that you have.

C (13:24)

Gotten your board to get involved, Fundraising is key, right? You can't talk about board membership without discussing fundraising. And we try to be pretty explicit with our board members from the recruitment phase about the give get and what that means and how critical it is to the sustainability of the organization. And quite literally, we are tying and writing their contributions into our budget. And so there are some who might not be able to personally give as much as others, but have the connections, are able to advocate or in the rooms or working at corporations who give triple matches or have corporate social responsibility departments. So we, as Nick mentioned, are truly trying to be creative and innovative to really help sort of shake the tree for our board members to say, is it someone in your network? Is it any of the professional associations or organizations that you're connected, connected to? Is it your company? Right. So how might we be able to leverage your networks and your organizations truly for the betterment of the organization? So that's what I would underscore here.

A (14:28)

Yeah, that's critical. At this time, when every nonprofit is being shaken by both the gyrations of the global economy, the nonprofit economy, all the kinds of things that are happening, keeping your board engaged is going to be absolutely critical. And yet that's another area where we found in our studies that unfortunately, boards often aren't engaged. And it's tricky. We learned this all, I think, during COVID When board members have their own crises to deal with at work and in their personal lives, it's very challenging to get them involved. So, Kathleen, I know you've done a great job of getting and keeping everybody engaged. Can you share some of those strategies and what you're thinking about doing now?

C (15:09)

Sure, absolutely. Bryan Stevenson is someone I look up to, and one of the things he talks about is just being proximate to the work. Right. And I think about proximity a lot and talk about it a lot with my board. And we have determined ways to allow them to be much more proximate to the work, because if you're approximate to the work, you're much more connected, as Nick mentioned earlier, to the mission and to the purpose of the organization. So there are a couple of things that we do. So, for example, we start every board meeting by grounding in what we call a mission moment. So we either have one of our participants come into the board meeting, there's a video, there's something that highlights a person, a company, a partner in the ways that we're working, maybe a company that has done some incredible hiring of some of our participants or our participants that has really transformed their life in a meaningful way, as many of them and most of them have. They're building their own personal stories with the organization and are able to advocate about the lives that that are being touched. In addition, you know, we make sure that we are having annual engagement meetings at least once a year, and if possible, twice a year. And these are more formal meetings where we meet with our board members to talk about their satisfaction being on the board, ways that we might want to continue to engage them, skill sets that we might not be maximizing on, that we would want to. I had a board member recently who said, you know, I have a background in hr, but I'm actually really interested in finance. Can I join the Finance Committee? And so I think thinking about this as a bidirectional opportunity and not just what can we get from our board members, but how are they growing both personally and professionally as well. And I think building relationships is maybe the last thing that I'll say, too, is really key. Right? We want to make sure, you know, I make time to have drinks, breakfast, lunches, all of the kinds of things with my board members and to find them to have opportunities to do that with each other as well. I truly want them to like each other because this work is hard and, you know, if there's an opportunity for them to be in the same room and find those points and moments of connection, I think that goes a long way to ensure just their excitement and engagement to the board as well.

A (17:15)

Yeah, the chance to meet each other and be in person, I have found that that's huge. When you said that you make sure that at least once a year you're doing that kind of check. Is that one on one you with the board member or do you bring your staff? How do you do that?

C (17:29)

So it is usually myself and my chief external affairs officer who oversees our marketing, communications, development, corporate engagement, and so a lot of touch points, all of those external partnerships. And so she and I typically will have met beforehand to talk about what has been the engagement over the past year of the board member. And we talk about it across a number of different areas. We talk about their talents, we talk about their tribute and their treasure. And so we think about ways to help them. Again, not just think about the financial piece, but ways that they've opened up their networks, ways that they're using their skills to help build up the organization.

A (18:09)

That makes so much sense. That's a great idea. Nick, tell me more about what you do to engage your board members.

B (18:15)

I think Kathleen's outlined best in class practices. I can agree with everything she says. For me, it's all about about kind of purpose and proximity. So as I've said before, just keeping everyone focused on the work. Why is it so important? I think that's tremendously key to ensuring cohesion. I mean, my board, we went through a rocky time about three years ago, and I'm sure a contribution to that was during COVID We just weren't coming together in person because we try and come together in person at least once or twice a year. My board members are spread around the world, so the opportunity to come together is really important. And proximity. I'm soon taking my old board out to Indonesia to see the work there. So we'll have four days together. We'll be meeting with partners, we'll be going to communities. Lots of quality time with each other, but also a focus on the importance of the work. And it's just so powerful. So all of those matter. I love it when my board members Engage with each other, particularly when I do it spontaneously, then that's just wonderful.

A (19:09)

Nick, when you were writing your book, I'm sure you talked to a lot of the leaders about how they got there and boards involved in fiscal planning. I'm curious, after you had that experience of talking to them all, what were some of the kinds of things that you learned that you'd love to share with others? What are some of the best practices?

B (19:28)

I think first and foremost, you need a board that takes its responsibilities seriously. And management of finances, Management of risk is among the top responsibilities of a board. Which doesn't mean that you need the whole board perusing in depth all of the financials all of the time, because it just won't happen. It really won't. But you need a treasurer. You need someone on the board who does take that responsibility seriously and someone who's trusted by the board. I think that's key. If you're a big enough organisation, maybe over a couple of million dollars or so, maybe you have a subcommittee. We have a finance Audit and Risk committee. So it meets a week or so before every board meeting so that they can go through the financials in more detail. We'll pull in head of Finance so that we can just do a deep dive on all of those issues, answer any queries they can report back to the board. I think all of that is key. We make sure that we provide the board with as much information as possible. I think it's hard because I talked before about the kind of the asymmetry of knowledge and of course we're on top of it all. But this is where I think board's responsibility is absolutely key, to be asking the right questions. One of the things I found in my experience, both writing the book and Talking to other CEOs, I've been stunned how many new CEOs have come into the role only to find there's a significant hole in the finances that they didn't really understand. And, you know, to my mind, that that one implies a failure of board responsibilities. You shouldn't be in that situation. Certainly you should be disclosing it. If you're bringing someone in. It's not the exciting stuff, is it? For boards, it's not talking about the mission, it's not doing field visits, it's not talking strategy, but it's the thing that can so often trip up non profits, particularly at these really difficult times. I mean, we should be talking about scenarios, we should be talking about options to replace lost finance, we should be talking about what Are the projections business one year, two year, three years out? I know we're doing that with my board all the time, and it implies a degree of rigor and that stands the organisation in really good stead. Yeah.

A (21:21)

And when you say you're doing it all the time, because I can imagine you are, does that mean more meetings, more conversations, or just always saying that we have to focus on this?

B (21:31)

Certainly. It's always, let's have a focus on this. My organization receives US government funding, foreign assistance funding that was frozen. So I immediately communicated with my board about that because it happened unexpectedly. We had to talk to the board. We had a plan, we were able to advise them. What were the implications. We were fortunate enough that a few weeks later, the funding was unfrozen. It didn't mean major changes in direction for the organization, but preparation, discussion. And the last point I'll make on this is, you know, my board itself is acutely conscious of this and they are insistent that amongst the board responsibilities, we have at least two board members with strong financial and ideally, strong business experience as well, partly to make sure that they're asking the right question on behalf of the board and checking in on us.

A (22:18)

One of the things that I love about having the two of you together is that both of your organizations received money from Mackenzie Scott, and all of us are incredibly curious about what that means for an organization. And I know it means both good and bad sometimes. Kathleen, your organization received $8 million. Can you walk us through a little bit what happened when you got that money and how you worked with your board to think about how to spend it?

C (22:41)

You know, first off, of course, we were so incredibly grateful to receive that call. And as you mentioned, it's two sides of the coin here, because on the one side, you know, people sort of equate it to kind of winning the lottery. But when you think about the fact you mentioned it's an $8 million gift, our organizational budget is about $16 million. So when you think about when you. What it means when you win the lottery, you actually have X factor above what your salary is to kind of maintain. You could quit your job if you wanted to. Right. And with this, of course, we couldn't stop. We're not going to stop fundraising, we're not going to stop thinking about how to continue to sustain the organization. And so one of the things that we had to think about was what was going to be the best use of this investment. Sustainability was and continues to be key for us in our organization. And that was a Big factor that we considered. And so what we wanted to do, how we engaged our board was we convened a time bound ad hoc committee to help determine the best use of that $8 million. And to Nick's point, we had funding folks from the investment space, we had folks from the philanthropic space, we had folks from kind of a programmatic and community based lens to help us really think about how might we best use these dollars. We knew that kind of adoption of new programs and policies was going to be really easier to help with buy in from our board if they were involved in that decision making process. But the executive team really first started to think about what might be the best way, knowing our finances and our day to day operations, obviously on a much more intimate level than our board, and helping to then use the expertise of that ad hoc committee to then make a broader recommendation of here's how we're going to use it. So ultimately what we ended up doing was a little more than half of it went into a sustainability kind of investment piece. So we were able to kind of say this is going to be the piece that helps us think about sustainability. We're able to leverage the interest from those investments as part of our operating budget as well, which is great. We were also able to do some internal infrastructure investments that we hadn't been able to do that allow us to do our job much more efficiently and much more effectively and, and bring on the capacity that's needed. And so it allows you to lower your shoulders a little bit and breathe a little bit easier. It doesn't, as I said, eradicate the totality and the need for ongoing fundraising, especially because it is a one time gift. Right. And so less likely winning the lottery and more like getting a bonus maybe. Right. You're not going to go out and buy a brand new house and the bonus because you now got a mortgage and utilities that you've got to upkeep. So you've got to think about those things. But engaging the board was really critical and I think that allowed them to really ultimately in the end be supportive of the way that we chose to implement those dollars, both for sustainability and infrastructure as well as for programmatic use as well.

A (25:32)

That's terrific. Nick, Your organization received 23 million, I believe. Tell me about what happened and how you, you use the gift and what you learn from that and especially the involvement of your board.

B (25:43)

We, we actually received 35 million, so.

A (25:46)

35 million, even better.

B (25:49)

So it was closer to a lottery win that was double our budget at the time and was Obviously one of the most joyful days of my professional life when you think, what can we do with that in terms of serving the communities that we aim to serve? So what we did was we agreed some parameters fairly early on with the board Board including a plan to aim to spend it over five years. And then the board agreed that we would engage all staff because I thought it was a really powerful opportunity to bring staff in, focused on a mission and everything else. So we kind of went through an extensive process of considering what we could expand, what new programs we might want to do, where we'd make internal investments, particularly around fundraising. Because the only debt, well, not the only downside, but one downside is that you spend down the money, something a lot of organisations are struggling with, which is what happens after the five years. So we had a goal to try and raise our annual income by investing in our fundraising capacity so that by the end of the five years, six years, we were closer to raising the increased spend and went back to the board then with a plan. They had some tweaks but broadly approved it and that's gone well. But in all honesty, we haven't raised as much new money as we had planned. So we've adjusted course and we're just slowing it down. We went through a strategic planning process just to make sure that our kind of income plans and our expenditure plans are better aligned. But it's been. Been amazing and to the original purpose of the gift, it's enabled us to significantly increase our impact and therefore impact on so many more people that are vulnerable to slavery and trafficking. So I just, I am full of admiration for the way that McKinsey approaches this and the unrestricted upfront nature, particularly at times like this. I actually took the liberty of writing to them and just saying at a time when we did take a financial hit with some of the government changes, we were better cushioned because of the gift we got three, four years ago than we would have otherwise been. So it's got a long term impact. We are hugely grateful for an important.

A (27:44)

Message for all grant makers. The unrestricted multi year gifts make a difference. And we're going to see in this very moment how many organizations survive because they have that kind of support from their donors, from foundations and other things. That's an incredibly important message. I'm curious about the staff involvement with the board. How did that work and how did you make sure that was productive?

B (28:05)

So we polled all staff on what they think we should do and we kind of compiled a list of, of priorities and Obviously his senior leadership team inputted to that and I think it had strengths and weaknesses. You know, the strength. All staff felt hugely engaged. You don't get that many occasions to get them as involved outside perhaps a planning process or something. But here it was even better because you know, you could add additional resources to spend so new things that you could do. I think where we got it wrong is we probably tried to do too many things.

A (28:33)

Kathleen, one of the ideas I would love to steal from you is that I know that you do wonderful board retreats and that those really focus on some of the planning work and other things you do. Could you tell us a little bit more about how you do them and take us inside the room for those efforts?

C (28:49)

Absolutely. So this was an idea that was actually born from my vice chair, which is just absolutely incredible. And so she helped to implement this. So this is our third year now doing our annual retreats and it has actually been just so incredible for a number of the reasons that we actually mentioned even earlier. Right. So one, and it's thinking about that proximity and purpose. Right. That Nick mentioned. How are you bringing folks closer in a much more intensive way to the mission of the organization and what it is that you're trying to do. It's also just a great opportunity to do that educating. As I mentioned, often these board meetings are very packed with agenda items and motions and things that need to get decided upon that you don't have as much time to sort of take a step back and do as much of educating as you want to of the board. And so, you know, I'm just thinking about even our last board retreat, which I think was probably our most successful to date, where we did some role playing. So we actually had our board members take on the roles of various team members on staff here and thinking about what it means to get a participant from the recruitment phase all the way to getting a job. And they would get hit with these challenges at every 10 minutes of the participant didn't show up for programming. What do you do now? Right. Or the participants childcare fell through. What do you do now? And so helping them truly understand the challenges that our staff even have to face on a day to day basis to help each and every one of our participants truly get to that transformative part of their life where they're able to get that life changing career and opportunity. And so that was really an opportunity for them to get so close to really understanding our coaching model, our curriculum and our program and really understanding what it takes and the effort the herculean, sometimes effort that it takes to get so many of our folks, particularly because we're working with those with the toughest barriers to employment, to that employment. And so that's really a really awesome opportunity. As we think about strategic direction and strategic vision or new initiatives that are coming by, it's also an opportunity for us to socialize those with the board, get their initial feedback before we sort of taken it any further down the road. So we were doing that as well. And then, of course, we end with a social time. Right. So again, an opportunity for the board to connect with each other and just kick back and learn a little bit more about each other. It truly has been such an incredible experience that we do with our board members.

A (31:20)

Yeah, that sounds so invigorating to have them all together and must give support to the staff as well. You said that it got better by the third year. So what are some of the things as you prepare for a fourth year? What are the ingredients of things you might do better and what you've learned from each time being together?

C (31:37)

One of the things that we have really wanted to do more of is we have a number of what we call auxiliary boards. So, for example, an executive council, an associate board. And while they might not be part of the retreat for the entire time, thinking about really strategic opportunities to bring them in, we've started to think about them as sometimes a pipeline truly to our executive board. And so giving them the opportunity to come in with some fresh eyes, some fresh thinking, some innovative ideas that the board might not be aware of is a really a great opportunity. And then I think continuing to engage senior leadership. So tasking each of my executive team members to with a board member to help plan and prepare for the retreat so that it is as informed as possible and as productive as possible when we get there. So I think those kinds of opportunities will continue to maximize on in future retreat retreats.

A (32:30)

Great advice. We'll close our conversation with our standing question. These jobs are hard. We just talked about all of the things that make them challenging. So I'm wondering how each of you recharges. Kathleen, can I start with you?

C (32:44)

My typical go to for recharging is running. I had a little bit of an injury over the last couple of years, so I've taken a little bit of a step back. But historically I think I've run eight marathons. I don't know how many half marathons, and, you know, know countless 5Ks and 10Ks. And that is, you know, it's often very early I have friends who call me a farmer's daughter because I wake up with the roosters and go for a run. But it is my time. It's usually the only time that I get to myself in a day. It's just a really great opportunity to use that time to either chill and reflect and listen to a podcast or try to solve a problem that's been kind of gnawing at me.

A (33:22)

It's a great time to solve a problem. Nick, tell me what you do to recharge.

B (33:26)

So Kathleen's a runner. I'm a swimmer, which is probably a bit of a cliche for an Australian, but I love swimming. I particularly love ocean swimming, although that's a bit challenging when I live in central London. But I do find occasions, in fact, on at least a couple of occasions, have taken my board on it on long swims. We did an organized swim down the Bosphorus, which was a 6K swim, and I managed to get at least three of my board members to join me. And then, of course, time with family. And it's a Friday afternoon here. So after this, my wife and I will go out where we kind of deconstruct the week and just chill and relax and have some time together.

A (34:04)

So a new challenge is getting board members to go on that kind of a swim. I think that's what we'll all aspire to. That's best.

B (34:10)

A heads up to them. I'm thinking of doing it next year. They don't know that yet, but they'll hear it first through this podcast.

A (34:14)

They just heard it.

B (34:15)

Spoiler alert.

A (34:18)

Nick and Kathleen, this has been such a useful conversation. There were so many things that I learned that I plan to put to use. Thank you for your leadership and for doing such an extraordinary job with your boards and for sharing this with our audience. We appreciate it. Thank you.

C (34:33)

Thank you so much, Stacy, for having me.

B (34:35)

Thanks, Stacy.

A (34:46)

Nonprofits Now Leading Today is hosted by me, Stacy Palmer. It's produced by Emily Haynes at the Chronicle of Philanthropy and from Reasonable Volume. Mary Dew is the producer, Mark Bush is our engineer, and Rachel Swaby and Elise Yu our executive producers. Additional support comes from Margie Fleming, Glennon, Andrew Simon, Nick Adams, Krista Niles, Amaya Beltran, and Kyle Johnson. Join us next week when we talk to Vanessa, Priya Daniel about the leadership skill, skills all CEOs can learn from women of color.