A (2:01)

Yeah. Everyone we speak to is a bit shell shocked.

B (2:03)

Yeah.

A (2:04)

Or just a bit.

B (2:06)

Yeah.

A (2:06)

Like, that was a lot. It was a lot. Talking about the election talk. Just in general. It was a lot in the UK watching it.

B (2:13)

Right.

A (2:13)

It was relentless coverage.

B (2:15)

Everything has been a lot.

A (2:17)

Right.

B (2:17)

It's just. Yeah. So I could, I could use some like, Zen qualities which I Don't possess. But we got that.

A (2:22)

Pick Kevin up for some tea, T.C. you know, just give me something to help me see.

B (2:26)

Oh, that. Yes, exactly. I should. I should do that.

A (2:28)

Yeah. He gave me and live a little gummy thing last night and I was. Slept like a baby.

B (2:33)

Really?

A (2:33)

Yeah. I said, what was that? That knocked me out? He said it was like a micro dosing of THC something. And I was like, okay. Bearing in mind I've never done a drug in my life. I' never smoked in my life. I don't drink. Now. I have done. I've been hammered on many occasions, but I don't now. So anything I take, paracetamol, ibuprofen, Aleve. I'm like, oh, that affected me. So he gave me like a teeny little gummy and I was just like, oh, sleep.

B (2:55)

Oh, yeah.

A (2:56)

It was amazing.

B (2:58)

Okay.

A (2:59)

I'm like, can I get these into the country? I'm literally gonna have to Google it.

B (3:02)

Please don't try that.

A (3:05)

I don't think they smell like weed. I might be okay. This is a weird place to start. I'm sorry. I'll focus. Okay. How are we?

B (3:12)

Good.

A (3:12)

Okay, good. And we have now known each other since. What year did you hit me up on Twitter? Excuse the bare feet. I'm too hot.

B (3:18)

It was. It's going to be. It was January 2014. It's 10 years. It's going to be 11 in 11 years.

A (3:24)

In January.

B (3:25)

Yeah.

A (3:25)

Tell the people what happened so that they know how we came to be. How you came to be one of my gay husbands.

B (3:32)

I think so. At that point, I would have been four years after aesthetic school doing my skincare thing. Didn't have. Well, the brand was sort of like baby bits of the brand. And then I saw a video of you with the Pixi Woos. Right. And it was like everything you were saying, I was like, yes, yes, yes. It just made sense to me. It's also stuff at the time you didn't really hear in the States. Like, I mean, I remember hearing you say, like, oh, right, in the States. Of course it's going to be like a highly foaming cleanser and all these things. You're talking about a balm cleanser.

A (4:08)

And so.

B (4:08)

So it fascinated me because it made sense to me with what I was seeing with skin. And then I think I just started commenting on your Twitter, but I was not getting a response.

A (4:18)

I'm sorry about that.

B (4:20)

So. Which, I mean, you are a busy, popular woman, so obviously. But then I think I felt like I said Something like, I need to.

A (4:27)

Who do I have to sleep with? Or who do I have to marry to get Caroline Hirons to talk about? Or something along those lines. We must have it somewhere.

B (4:36)

We do. Oh, we do. And, you know, since then, it's been love at first tweet, I guess.

A (4:41)

And now I don't know if it's still the way. But for a long time and for many years, if you Google Caroline Hirons and husband was one of the options, your face comes up. So that's what I find endlessly entertaining. Even Jim's like, oh, is it Jordan or me? I'm like one of the J's.

B (4:55)

Yeah, I guess maybe they got that part right.

A (4:56)

It's one of the J's. How did you get to where you are in terms of Facialist Skincare from doing ballet? Oh, so tell us about the ballet first.

B (5:07)

Yes. So I do feel like this story does organically connect when I talk about it, but, yes, when you hear it, you're like, what? So trained my whole life in ballet.

A (5:18)

Moved away from how old?

B (5:20)

7, 8. Wow. So not whole life, but.

A (5:24)

And you didn't, like, just train in ballet. You were a performer. Let's elaborate.

B (5:29)

Yeah. So when I first started, it was taking lessons, doing classes, and then that quickly escalated into, like, oh, there's potential here. Oh, we need to get them into this. And then there was the summer programs, and then I moved away from home at 15 to the school of American Ballet in New York City, which is. It's not like the same school, but it's similar. So there's a dormitory, ballet studios. You have that, and then you have a separate high school that you go for your academic classes. Some people do a correspondence program, but I did that. And then I got my first professional job at 18 in Seattle with Pacific Northwest Ballet and danced professionally for 11 years.

A (6:06)

Insane. And you've got some good pictures of you doing. Getting yourself into quite a few positions I don't think I've ever been able to do in my life. Never mind. There's a lot of splits going on and plie things in the air and flying through the air.

B (6:19)

And I look out now, and I can feel it in my body. But I know if I did it, we would be.

A (6:25)

You'd be in an ambulance.

B (6:26)

Yes, I would be, like, laying flat on the bed right here. And, you know, you always hear the stories of, like, I got into skincare because my skin was so bad growing up. I didn't have any of that, where my skin went off the rails. Was when I started performing professionally because I was just slapping on stage makeup, didn't know how to remove it. And then we would have two show days and have to put it back on and have to remove it again. And I mean, I think about this. I never cleaned a makeup brush. Never. I probably just got new ones. So at least I didn't have the same one for 11 years. But, like, so my skin was a wreck. It went from fine to sensitive, to broken out to irritated. So I started getting facials really early on when I was 18, and fell in love with it. I loved what it was doing for my skin. I loved learning about products, how some were working, some weren't. What was and not. The rest is history. But it really became a fascination. I was already obsessed previously. Like, fragrance was a whole part of my teenage childhood years. I know they talk about, like, the fragrance boys now who are, like, the young teenage boys who are really into fragrance. That was.

A (7:23)

Oh, I don't know.

B (7:24)

I feel like I'm the OG of that.

A (7:25)

Okay, good. I never heard of that.

B (7:28)

So beauty was always something I was very into. And so it made sense, obviously, for me to go into something in beauty. But when the skincare situation happened, it just took off. I was obsessed with treatments, I was obsessed with products, and then got injured several times. The second serious injury I had, I knew that, like, a change was coming imminent. And simultaneously, in Seattle, a big, brand new, shiny aesthetic school opened, like, down the street from us. And I felt it was very much like the writing was on the wall.

A (7:58)

And then we both had a love affair with a certain woman from California.

B (8:01)

Oh, gosh. Ms. Kate Somerville.

A (8:03)

Ms. Kate Somerville.

B (8:04)

Love her. Yes. And, yeah, when I was in aesthetic school, she came for a book signing. Her book, which I love, Complexion Perfection had just come out, and it was a Saturday, and we had class on a Saturday, and I said, can we go to her book signing? And they said, no. And I was like, I will buy everybody in this class her book if we can go to her book signing. And they were like, okay. And we went to her book signing, and during it, she was like, after you're done with school, like, message me. And she took me under her wing. And then I did start training for Kate Somerville Skincare in, like.

A (8:41)

Talk about having that as a mentor.

B (8:42)

Oh, I know, I know. And crazy time for her, too. That would have been 2010.

A (8:47)

Like, Peak ate some of. Yeah, he. I mean, every celeb coming out of the clinic.

B (8:54)

That was another reason I got very obsessed with you, because I remember you talking about oil free nourish, deep tissue repair. The OG Kate.

A (9:01)

Seven moisturizers that are just what a gang of moisturizers that was. I mean, truly my pain is that in selling to Unilever, they ended up discontinuing and then reformulating. You didn't need to touch nourish. There was nothing wrong with it.

B (9:16)

Nothing.

A (9:16)

There was nothing wrong with oil free. Don't with it. Why are you touching it?

B (9:19)

I know.

A (9:19)

Like, why?

B (9:20)

I know.

A (9:21)

Anyway, what can you do?

B (9:23)

Nourish. I think even still to this day, I could pop it on as a day cream. No issue.

A (9:27)

No issue. Love it.

B (9:28)

And so many skins could. It smelled amazing. It felt amazing. It wore.

A (9:32)

I remember going into Bergdorf's and she had a counter around the back where the fragrance is now, but around the back and it was a big round circle. And I remember thinking, I remember going, this is impressive. And in my head, I vaguely remember going, oh, I could do this one day. And then quickly just moving on from it and just like, oh, I would. I couldn't do that. You know, like, oh, no, I couldn't do that. And then like getting her book and being like, how cool is this? You've got a book and a counter in Bergdorfs and look at you now. Well, I'm not in Bergdorfs, but it's okay. I am in there. I'm just not on a counter. I'm in there myself walking around going, oh, it's Bergdorf. And I've got to go and see the windows. I've done them yet. Have they done the Christmas windows yet?

B (10:10)

They should be up. I have not seen them either. Oh, yeah, we need to actually go do that.

A (10:14)

Maybe we should go do that.

B (10:15)

Yeah.

A (10:16)

So you do that. And then when you're in Seattle, you do your training, you meet Kate Smithell and you also meet a man. I'm talking about your husband. Jesus Christ. It's like spoon feeding a kitten. Ben. His name's Ben.

B (10:33)

Ben, yes. Which we actually have. I don't even know if you know this story. The story is quite serendipitous. So, yes, I met my husband, who was a former professional ballet dancer as well, in Seattle. But we realized after we had dated for about a year, he talked about, like, oh, yeah. When I went to SAB before the School of American Ballet, before the summer course, we went to check out the dormitory because we thought I might be staying there for the year. And I said, oh, my God, I was in the elevator with. We realized that we actually Had a connection. So he would have been 15, I would have been 18. And he was in the elevator with his parents. And I, to be clear, nothing was happening at that time.

A (11:14)

No, no, no. I was not insinuating that in any way whatsoever. That's not what I was trying to insinuate.

B (11:21)

But he was 15 at the time I was 18. He was with his parents, and the head of the dormitory was in there. And of course, they were trying to, like, showcase, and they were like, this is Jordan. He just got his first professional job. And, of course, showing that the students move on to get jobs. And we remembered that about a year after we started, because it was sort of like, at that point, I'm sure he was like, who is this? And I'm like, who is this? And nothing came of it, of course, and I didn't see him after that. But because we have so many friends in the ballet world and industry, we knew of each other. And I'd been in Seattle since 1999. He moved there in 2005. And it just so happened that we both lived walking distance from work, and he was renting an apartment in the building right next to mine. So we started walking to work together every morning. And it was. It was truly like. It was a very serendipitous story.

A (12:10)

Very handy.

B (12:11)

We've now been. It's going to be 20 years next year. Is that crazy? Yeah. But I didn't remember him. Obviously.

A (12:17)

You didn't remember him, but. Yeah. The guy you married. Yeah. And so how long are you in the ballet for? 11 years.

B (12:22)

11 years. Professionally? Yes.

A (12:24)

And then you finish. What makes you think, number one, I'm going to do Faces. Number two, I'm going to do my own brand?

B (12:30)

I feel like it actually happen the other way. I was watching when Martha Stewart had her new but old talk show she had somebody on, or she said it was something like, what would you do if money wasn't an issue, wasn't an object? And it really got me thinking. And it was at a time where I'd broken my foot for the second time in two years, so I was laid up again.

A (12:49)

Did you do that when you were drunk, falling out of the club, or were you actually dancing?

B (12:52)

I was dancing. I know. It would actually be a much more fun story.

A (12:56)

Yeah, exactly.

B (12:58)

And I was like, I would love to have, like, again, I was really into products at that point and what was being used on me and facials and what I was using at home. And so I thought, oh, it'd be so cool to Have a product line getting that in my mind, but not thinking it was going to happen anytime soon, and then knowing that I would want to have the knowledge with that. So that's where the aesthetics aspect came in. So went to school for aesthetics immediately. I retired from the ballet in June 2010. And then in August 2010, I started Aesthetic school. Graduated from there. Started in a day spa, which was great. The problem, which I didn't realize was my books were filled, but it was like eyebrow wax, legs, leg wax, Brazilian wax.

A (13:40)

Kill me now.

B (13:42)

And I was.

A (13:42)

Kill me now. I do not want to start trading.

B (13:44)

Because then others wanted to do the waxing because they could do it quicker and they could make more money. And I was like, that's fine, Give me your facial. Like, I want to do skin.

A (13:52)

Yeah.

B (13:52)

So that actually worked. But then I sort of got like, it still was then I was doing body. I was taking away from what I was really trying to do. And then at that point, Kate Somerville, the brand needed somebody to sort of train in the northwest region. And so I started doing that while simultaneously doing a private practice thing. And then that just grew and then.

A (14:15)

And you're how old by this time?

B (14:16)

Oh, God.

A (14:17)

But what year are we at?

B (14:18)

It would have been at that point, I would have been like 30, 31. And then.

A (14:24)

So you did ballet for a long time?

B (14:26)

Yeah, from 18 to 29.

A (14:27)

Wow.

B (14:29)

And then I had my Oprah moment, which was I was looking for a brand to use in facials and to have like, you know, to buy in and carry all the products and everything. At that time, they. There was very few brands that would be specific for a small spa or a private practice. So some of these brands, it was like a $15,000 buy in because they wanted you to have 10, 10 of every SKU initially, plus testers, plus samples, plus all the education material and all, which I understand, but it doesn't make sense for a one room, one person facility. And I knew. Well, I didn't have that money, but I knew that if I was even thinking about that, I was like, oprah moment. Invest in yourself. I'm like, well, I can start something here. And I started just calling around to different labs to say, I have this idea. I can't do the minimums. If we can take them down slightly, I do feel like there's something here. And one lab said yes, and we're actually still with them for a majority of our good. Yeah, good, good vibes, good juju.

A (15:29)

So when do you launch? What year?

B (15:30)

So there's A few things because there, there's been like a few layers to it. The facial studio and like some little like facial oils that I just mixed up myself was in October 2013. But what people know of the brand today is October 2015, which is crazy because that'll be 10 years. It's already been officially 10 years.

A (15:57)

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B (18:45)

This earliest memories of beauty was actually a ballet teacher at School of American Ballet. So, I mean, there were things earlier, certainly, but something that really, I feel like, laid the foundation. And I know people love or hate this fragrance, and it actually wasn't the fragrance she was wearing, but it smelled like angel by Terry Mugler. I'd never smelled anything like it. It was 1996. It would have just come out. And I was just, like, enamored with it. And I remember. And then they just launched angel for Men, and so I went and got that.

A (19:12)

That is an intense fragrance to be enamored by. My God.

B (19:15)

I know, right?

A (19:16)

I have PTSD of it being sprayed next to me on counter, and I'd.

B (19:18)

Be like, oh, my God, I'm gonna.

A (19:19)

Pass out, like, spraying this.

B (19:21)

But that is definitely something that laid the groundwork. And then I would take people, like, I would have an allowance for my parents, or I would do, like, work behind the desk at the dormitory to make some money. And I would spend all my money on. I would take my friends to Bloomingdale's and we would. I would make them buy fragrance with me as you do. And then what happened was. And this was sort of the initial skincare connection, too. Bulgari. Bulgari, they had that. They have that beautiful green tea fragrance. And there was a moment in time in 99, I believe, they came out with a green tea skincare line. And it was all scented with that scent. And that was like a skincare fragrance combination that was orgasmic to me. And. And so I have obviously younger memories than that. But those two are, I feel, like, very impactful and, like, rooted in where I am today.

A (20:05)

How did that lead to what you then decided to make as product? Because you're like me. You don't do a full, like, 15, 20 step routine. You kind of make. You choose. You're picky. You're like this and that, and then you read, and you don't Release anything in sequence, which I don't either. Because why be basic?

B (20:20)

No, exactly.

A (20:21)

Why give the people what they want?

B (20:23)

How it started out initially was first with a cleanser that made sense to me with the ballet background with. And when I was doing facials, I was, you know, ultrasonic exfoliation, of course. So I had done this was before our products were out. I had done a double cleanse in the facial treatment and then was doing ultrasonic exfoliation.

A (20:41)

What do you use in the treatment room?

B (20:43)

God, at that point I would have.

A (20:44)

Used Albilene, I grease.

B (20:47)

It would have probably been like control corrective. Because they were a small brand or they were a big brand, but they would do small, like buy ins for private practices. But then I was doing ultrasonic exfoliation and you should be wiping it off and it should be coming out clean or clear, but there was still like makeup coming out of people's pores. And that's what I was like. I want to develop a cleanser that was sort of my. Where I wanted to go. And then most of the products have been inspired by the treatment room, of course, because seeing people, you know, have issues with vitamin C, but not realizing they're having issues with a high percentage ascorbic acid or whatever it is, and not wearing SPF properly, or not removing their makeup properly, not cleansing properly, which not cleansing properly is a whole nother episode.

A (21:32)

It's a whole other episode.

B (21:34)

But so it sort of came from that. And then it was more, you know, a lot of times, and I'm sure you've been through this, there are some products with the chemist and with you and with the formula and whatever, it just clicks and it's sort of like really not against the grain at all. And then there's other products that for whatever reason, they just feel so against the grain. Again, not based on the chemist, the formula, anything. It's just what you envision in your head, what you're trying to get to and what's being brought out isn't like. And so I felt that that's sort of how it goes. Like, basically, if we have something ready to go, we launch it.

A (22:10)

If you have something ready to go, you launch it. When it's ready. When it's ready, you'll get it.

B (22:13)

Yeah, exactly, Susan. It's true.

A (22:16)

When do you make the jump? To the jump? See what I did there?

B (22:19)

Ah.

A (22:19)

What's it called in ballet? Jump.

B (22:21)

Jump.

A (22:22)

It is a jump.

B (22:22)

Yeah. Okay. I mean jete, but like jump. A jump. Like we.

A (22:26)

When do you jet A From the ballet to I'm a brand founder. What's the process?

B (22:35)

Well, the process was rough and it took a while because even when it.

A (22:40)

Happened, Ben left the ballet after you, didn't he? Because I've known you since Ben left the ballet.

B (22:44)

Yeah.

A (22:44)

Yeah.

B (22:45)

It was definitely a process because I. So in terms of years, it was. I retired from the ballet in June 2010, and then sort of October 2013. So I guess a little over, like, three and a half years ago. However, I didn't really feel like it was definitely imposter syndrome for a long while, because I still felt like I had a foot in the ballet world. Because you're going from the top of one career to starting brand new in another, and I was doing all these things well, but it still just felt like it wasn't. I wouldn't say until 2017, 2018, I actually felt like a brand founder. Yeah. Though it started in 2013. It took a while.

A (23:26)

It takes a while. It's exhausting. It's your whole life as well. I mean, I always laugh because obviously I do a lot of interviews as well. And when people say about work, life balance, I'm like, I know.

B (23:37)

The thing is, I obsess over it because I like to think I have it.

A (23:40)

Don't be ridiculous. You've got your own brand.

B (23:42)

But I was going to say I like to think I have it because I have flexibility, because I can answer that email in line at a Starbucks or like, that's not the same thing. Which is nothing about work life balance. It just is like.

A (23:52)

It just means you can work while you're having your life.

B (23:55)

I know.

A (23:55)

That's kind of all it means.

B (23:57)

Yes, I know.

A (23:58)

So you have your own facial room clinic. What do you have?

B (24:01)

Yes. So back in the day, in 2013. Yes, 2013, we had a beautiful townhouse in Seattle, and the whole bottom floor was empty. And I was like, here we go. Little facial room. So that's how we started. Which meant growth was slow because we didn't advertise it. So it was really like the clientele I had built up at that point, I relied heavily on the ballet connections and being known in the ballet. And then in 2014, literally right around the time I would have harassed you on Twitter, I opened.

A (24:34)

I would like to put in a complaint. I was harassed.

B (24:37)

They might not help you now. There's.

A (24:39)

I mean, Elon's not coming to my aid. It's mine.

B (24:44)

A standalone space. Beautiful space in Seattle. That was huge. That was a facial room. And then behind the facial room there was room to store product, to ship products. So initially, of course, it was small. So I was doing all the shipping myself with the help of Ben and friends and facials. And it was just the perfect space. And then the product line grew. Had I go into a warehouse, which fine. But then I had all this space and there was no point in me having all the space. So then I moved into a smaller facial studio space and then did facials up until March 2020 when everything shut down.

A (25:15)

Yeah.

B (25:16)

And the point was to move to New York. Always. We kept that plan. I was going to open a private practice here. But then in 2020 and 2021, it kept going. Like they would be open, they would close, they would open, they would close.

A (25:28)

They kept changing the rules on it. You can't plan.

B (25:31)

And then I thought we were going to get a deal of a century. I was like, oh, it's the pandemic. We'll get a great deal. We started looking. No, the deals were terrible.

A (25:38)

Why was that, do you think, in New York? Well, I think similar in London. I think they thought people were going to come back to work quicker than they did and they just did.

B (25:44)

Not what we realized. And I don't know if this was the reason for it, but I think it's certainly a part of it is that bigger office spaces and bigger companies were downsizing because people, even if it wasn't full time work from home, there would be like work from home on Monday or Wednesday or stagger it. So because of it, they went down to like medium sized spaces. Medium sized business went down to the smaller spaces and took everything that you could use.

A (26:06)

Yes.

B (26:06)

So the only spaces that were actually left were these enormous, enormous spaces. And so a, it was hard to find stuff. And then when you did find stuff, it was a diamond, but it was truly a diamond. Like we found a place that was storefront 500 square feet on 76 in Madison and it was something like $20,000 a month. I'm like, right. Like, I also don't know what can go in there for that price besides jewelry.

A (26:31)

Yeah.

B (26:31)

Because it's such a small space and you have to turn over. Yeah.

A (26:35)

I mean, you've got to be a fenty.

B (26:37)

Yeah, exactly.

A (26:38)

To be able to do that.

B (26:39)

Like, exactly.

A (26:40)

Or just, you know, if it has like endless treatment rooms, you might be able to make that.

B (26:44)

But no, it just didn't make sense. And then at that same time, the brand started to take off. You started to do these amazing kits and the brand really Started to take off. And so it also. My time just became different. And I still think of going back in the treatment room, but I think it would be too hard because what's going to happen now is I'm just going to add work to my plate. I'm not.

A (27:07)

Yeah.

B (27:08)

I'm not going to. Like.

A (27:09)

No. And people. You can reach more people doing what you're doing now. Yeah, that's what I was. That's what I say now. Like, I can reach more people doing this.

B (27:15)

Exactly.

A (27:15)

The book, the app, you know, online, Insta and live. I can reach far more people than doing. Even on a. On a day. If I was doing five, six clients a day, at the end of it, I'm absolutely exhausted. The next day I have to recover. Then I would do another day in clinic, and then the next day I'd have to recover. That left me one working day a week. I can't do it. I can't run my company on one day a week.

B (27:34)

See, I like hearing this because this is how I feel. It's like, in my head, it sounds like a good idea and, like, yes, I want to get back to it, but now I've started doing I do events at co Bigalow and I do. And. Exactly. So I'm still seeing.

A (27:45)

You haven't offered me a facial.

B (27:47)

Well, where are we going to?

A (27:48)

Like, I'll come to you, or you can come to my hotel.

B (27:50)

Okay.

A (27:50)

I mean, come and pat on my face, please.

B (27:52)

Oh, God, I would love to. Yes, I know.

A (27:56)

I. I need some effleurage. Petrissage. I need some kneading on my face. Make sourdough with my cheeks.

B (28:01)

I'm thinking of, like, Nerida's hands right now. Like, massage.

A (28:04)

Oh, Nerida's hands. Oh, Nerida.

B (28:06)

Mm.

A (28:07)

So you moved to New York.

B (28:08)

So then we moved to New York. We kept. People always like, you moved to New York during the pandemic.

A (28:12)

The thing was, that was the plan.

B (28:14)

That was the plan we kept.

A (28:15)

You could move during the pandemic. We moved in the pandemic.

B (28:18)

We did get a great deal. We were renting. We did get a great deal on that. Not on retail space, but on living space, because everybody was leaving, of course. But, you know, we were going from Seattle to New York. Seattle was the first US spot that got Covid and became sort of like a hotspot. And then New York became sort of Vegas. But, like, inevitably, we weren't going from, like, you know, rainbows and sparkles and. But, like, it was still a Lockdown, either place.

A (28:41)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're still in lockdown.

B (28:43)

We just.

A (28:43)

You are allowed to move house.

B (28:45)

Yes.

A (28:45)

The world cannot stop, right? It did, but it cannot fully stop. People have to eat, People have to live.

B (28:51)

Exactly. So yeah. In September 2020, we moved back to New York City. I was originally born outside of Philadelphia, so families did not know that.

A (28:59)

And when you told me that this week, I was like, you're from Rocky World.

B (29:02)

Yeah. And it sort of makes sense, right? With the voice sometimes and with the Tuesday talk.

A (29:08)

Oh my God.

B (29:10)

But I have family in the city. I have family in Philadelphia. My parents are as far east as our family goes, which is Cleveland, Ohio. So I'm. Ben is on the west coast, but my family is all on the east coast.

A (29:22)

And where does the Italian come from?

B (29:24)

My father's side. I know I'm Italian and Ukrainian. I'm Ukrainian on my mom's side.

A (29:28)

Are you?

B (29:29)

So I'm like a passionate.

A (29:30)

I'm learning something new every time this trip.

B (29:32)

I'm a passionate hardhead. Like, it's a. Not the best combination.

A (29:35)

You never. A passionate hard head. Someone I'm friends with. Never.

B (29:40)

But then also sensitive. So it's like not the best combination.

A (29:43)

You are sensitive flower.

B (29:45)

Oh, very.

A (29:45)

You are a sensitive flower.

B (29:47)

Like internally, externally.

A (29:48)

I have lots of friends who are sensitive flowers who are outgoing and extrovert. And then they'll message and I'll be like, are you okay? Do you need a hug? And they're like, yes.

B (29:54)

Uh huh. It's true though. What is that?

A (29:57)

I don't know. I think I attract butterflies. I always say I'm a butterfly, I'm flying here. But then they're like, oh, actually I.

B (30:04)

Say I'm a sheep in wolf's clothing. Like the opposite of the saying. Because I feel like my.

A (30:08)

But I have days like that my.

B (30:09)

Bark is bigger than my bite now.

A (30:11)

My bark is not bigger than my bike. I can't relate.

B (30:16)

Opposite the track.

A (30:17)

I can't relate. But I think we all have those moments. Because I think as well when you do job that we do, which is a mixture of like retail and hands on.

B (30:27)

Yeah.

A (30:27)

There's a certain level of empathy that you have and you can only have that if you felt it.

B (30:32)

Yeah, exactly.

A (30:33)

Like when we're doing. When we're hiring staff and stuff, you can't teach passion. So if someone is really good at one thing and you can teach them another skill set. Fantastic. But you can't teach a personality.

B (30:44)

No.

A (30:44)

You know, so you could have someone who's a Brilliant at hands on facials, but they can't sell. Right, fine. Utilize people at their best.

B (30:50)

Absolutely. And that's, you know, I. As we grow, that's what we hire on and I try to do. I mean, I've had to do stuff myself just because of the nature of our business, which I like doing, because then I know what goes into it. I know. But then I also know what I'm good at, what I'm not good at. And then we hire on those skill sets because just.

A (31:13)

Why are people who are better than you like.

B (31:14)

Yeah, exactly.

A (31:15)

People who are better than you.

B (31:16)

Exactly.

A (31:17)

Was there a pivotal moment where you thought, oh, either this could be something, or, oh, wow, now I've arrived. Like, what was your pivotal kind of like, oh, that now this is something I could do forever, rather than I'm still kind of doing this. I'm still figuring it out. Did you have a moment of clarity where you were like, yes, this is where I'm supposed to be.

B (31:34)

It was that 2017, 2018 period. It just felt like, oh, wait, this is actually a sustainable brand now. And like, we are here. People are interested in the products. People want new products, they want new SKUs. They're interested in. What I have to say also was sort of the height of Instagram too. People were actually seeing your content then. Yeah.

A (31:54)

Funny that it wasn't full of bots.

B (31:57)

A world I know. So strange. But it was that 2017, 2018 period where it really sort of took a turn for the better. Not that it was bad before, but it really was like, okay. I feel that I'm a brand founder. I feel what I have to say is important. I feel people want to listen to me.

A (32:13)

Don't want to hear you say, how you doing?

B (32:14)

How you doing?

A (32:15)

How you doing? And now you're in New York. Yes, we're all friends.

B (32:20)

Yes.

A (32:21)

We all hang out.

B (32:22)

Yes.

A (32:22)

What a time to be alive.

B (32:24)

I know.

A (32:24)

I mean, there's a gang of us. We've got a gang.

B (32:26)

It really is amazing. That is the one amazing thing about New York and the connections and all the people that are here and everyone's.

A (32:33)

Just, we're just friends.

B (32:34)

I know, I know.

A (32:35)

I feel like in the UK that doesn't really happen the same way.

B (32:39)

That's what's so interesting. People always ask about that too. For me, I definitely know it has something to do with the ballet background because you're constantly competing with your friends.

A (32:48)

Yeah.

B (32:48)

So, yeah, there still is competition.

A (32:51)

Like, I mean, it's like competition, but nothing's going to stop me supporting my friends and their business.

B (32:55)

That's the thing. And there's a reality to it. Like, not everybody can get on with the same product. Not everybody can.

A (33:02)

And everyone's sold in different channels, right?

B (33:04)

Exactly.

A (33:04)

You know, we're all different areas. Joanna's got her own clinics, you know, and. And online. You've got online. And then now you're in CEO Bigelow, which is like. Like one of my favorite places in New York. It's like a crap den.

B (33:16)

Yes.

A (33:16)

They should call it crack den. Bigelow CD Bigelow. I'm put that to them today.

B (33:23)

Yeah.

A (33:23)

I'm like, hi, Sarah.

B (33:24)

It's so true. I mean, oh, my God. That's story.

A (33:25)

I just walk in, I'm like, this.

B (33:27)

It is. And it's like. And they also get such unique niche things. That's what I love about it, too. There's something on the door that says, like, if you can't find it anywhere, try Bigelow or something like that. And it sort of feels that way to me, and that's what I love about it. But, yes, I feel like nobody, at least in our circle is aggressively competing with each other. Like, we're all, like, going to the.

A (33:50)

Top, but we're all friends. We're all going together. We're going on a little journey together.

B (33:54)

And that's the other thing.

A (33:55)

Everyone's journey's different is to message you.

B (33:57)

And say, like, oh, my God. Are you like, is X, Y, and Z happening? Yes, today?

A (34:01)

Or like, I'm usually like, yes, it is happening. Yeah. Everyone's a pain in the ass, and I hate that.

B (34:06)

It's like misery loves company, but it does make me feel better.

A (34:09)

Yeah, but Joy loves company, too. You know, we've done so much fun stuff. You think about hall of Fame.

B (34:13)

Oh, my God.

A (34:13)

When you. The stroke of genius with you at hall of Fame was that you pretended you were in New York so everyone was thrown off. You were posting pictures of you on the sofa with your sick cat. And I'm like, he's already in the country. This man is a genius. And then so when you came out and I said, it's Jordan Samuel. And they lost their. And then, of course, the word spread, and everyone was like, well, he's in the morning group. He's not going to be in our group. And then we got you back, and they were like, it was so much fun.

B (34:41)

Such great memories of that. I remember when you told us about it, you. You and Holly and I think Josie were on the call And I remember.

A (34:48)

Like made you come.

B (34:50)

Well, I was like, can, can we come? And at first it was like, well, we're not doing brand thing. It had.

A (34:55)

Yeah, yeah, but you were always going to come. And then because you were coming, I had to phone May. Yes, like may, Jordan's coming. She was like, that bastard. Right, I'm coming. And I'm like, oh, just come. Everybody just come.

B (35:04)

Oh my God. It was magical. Like truly like a moment in time. Winter 2020 or fall 21?

A (35:10)

Winter 21. Yeah. Just like we're still in Covid. Everyone still had to present covert tests, but we could do things. And then we did like five 30 minute ish sessions a day. They sold out in. We crashed eventbrite. They sold out in like six minutes. But people didn't know what session they were coming to or who was going to be the guest. It was all a surprise. And because that. What that meant was if you were delayed on your flight and we had to move you to another day, no one was going to kick off and, you know, be furious with me. So what did I mean, that was.

B (35:40)

Oh my God, it was magic.

A (35:41)

And then when you came out dancing and we had people fanning themselves, they were just like, oh God, it's Jordan.

B (35:47)

I also, I mean, it was such an amazing time, but such a weird time. We were just talking how in the afternoon session, I answered a question that was like, excuse me, I have to go get a COVID test. Because I had to leave the next day on a plane and had to like present.

A (36:00)

It was just what a time.

B (36:01)

I know.

A (36:02)

I mean, I can't believe it. That's kind of my thinking of like, you know, I know it sounds strange and I don't mean it in any way to be dismissive because you know what, where I stand, but the whole thing around the election, not to dwell, not to go back. But we are where we are. We have been here before. And since then we've also had Covid.

B (36:20)

Right.

A (36:21)

Like we've been through a lot already, guys, you know, I mean, just keep throwing it at us. We're clearly resilient. Abortion is gone. You know, at some point they're gonna have to bring that back or women my age are going to set fire to the world.

B (36:32)

There was a Catherine Hahn, who is George Han's cousin.

A (36:36)

Cousin. I know because we also love him.

B (36:39)

Human rights campaign speech. And she said, you know, the universe doesn't give you what you can't handle. But Jesus Christ.

A (36:45)

Yeah, can we get a fucking break?

B (36:48)

That's How I feel.

A (36:53)

There are a few things in life that just keep on giving. For 3.99amonth. A floppy fuel station sarnie. One small cup of bougie. Overpriced coffee? I don't think so. Or for the same price, you could be getting a month's worth of skincare insights and know how from yours truly. A wealth of fresh, expertly written articles on all things skincare and beauty. From our free to download version for essential educational content to our elevated premium experience, the Skin Rocks app will revolutionize how you shop and learn about skincare. Whether you're a novice building your first routine, an aficionado wanting deep scientific expertise, or someone looking for the inside scoop on beauty newness, it's all in one pocket. Friendly place on the Skinmox app with simple to use functions that let you filter for your personal profile, save your favorite content, and explore a vast product library with ease. It's no wonder it's called the Google of skincare. Unlock a world of incredible premium content for just 3.99amonth, 34.99 a year. Or get a special discount via the podcast with code CHPOD to get £10 off your annual subscription. We're gonna do some little quick fire. It's gonna be easy. You can. You can be buzzer ready. Like Ellen with the buzzer. Okay, what's been your biggest beauty or skincare disaster?

B (38:11)

Oh, God. Like, that I've, like, done to myself.

A (38:14)

Yeah.

B (38:14)

Oh, God. Oh, God. So I used to dye my hair all the time and loved it. Even when people were like, that's not you. I was like, this is great. But so for.

A (38:21)

I love it.

B (38:22)

I was living in denial, obviously, but I actually think for me, it might have been in esthetic school when we were like, you would have to get a peel a day. And I remember being like, oh, you can do it on me. Oh, you can do it on me. Because at that point, like, didn't know.

A (38:35)

What barrier repair meant.

B (38:36)

Exactly. Which I feel. I still feel. Which is why I'm a delicate flower today, is because of that. So I actually would have to say that I was the sort of overly confident volunteer for, like, give me the peel. Like, take everything off. And now my skin's still like.

A (38:48)

And now your skin's like, bitch, put it back. Put it back, dumb ass. If your bathroom is on fire, what are you saving?

B (38:55)

Oh, no.

A (38:56)

Yeah, the cat's fine. Ben's fine. What are you saving? That's like, superficial. In the bathroom or wherever you keep your things in beauty like, it can be your fragrance collection. It can be whatever, your first prototypes of your product. Like, what are you going to be? Like, shit, I cannot lose this.

B (39:13)

Probably that fragrance bottle that I brought that's over there, because.

A (39:17)

Jesus Christ, that smells good.

B (39:19)

I'm really excited. I mean, like, again, fragrance was a first pass.

A (39:23)

Tell us where it came from. Tell us what it's called, because this will be out after it's on sale.

B (39:26)

Yeah. This is our first fragrance. This is another serendipitous story that I'll try to wrap up, but there was a perfumer who Ben and I came back from a long Italy trip in 2022 with a bunch of little vials, and I said, it would be interesting if we can go on, like, one of these fragrance websites and see if there's, like, a common denominator. And this one perfumer did, like, 80 or 90% of the scents we loved and brought back. So I'm like, I want him to do our perfume. Messaged him on Instagram. Nothing. He never saw the message. Yada, yada, yada. Messaged a friend in Italy who has a barbershop, and he said, oh, my friend actually has a big fragrance manufacturing plant. They do small business, like, runs of stuff connected with them. This is how it came about. When we went to meet with them to, like, start testing stuff, he said, the cool thing is, while it's a small business program, we've one of the best perfumers in Italy. He's award winning. I said, if you say it is Luca Maffei, I'm going to drop out of my chair. And he was like, it's Luca Maffei. How the hell do you know who Luca Maffei is? I'm like, I've been trying to work with him for two years now. And so now we. Now Luke and I are best friends.

A (40:28)

Now he responds to me, the only thing that I've smelled like it even vaguely before is Amanda Lacy when she made her fragrances, and they were really hard to get hold of. She had them for a while, and then she occasionally made, like, I think she'd like a shower. I want to say she did, like, a body wash.

B (40:45)

Yes.

A (40:46)

And they were stunning.

B (40:48)

Yes. I was like, I feel that is in a similar.

A (40:50)

Similar vein.

B (40:51)

Oh, yeah. So the name is Cortile Dolce, which means a sweet courtyard. This is our, like, Sicilian inspired fragrance. It's going to be a Bigelow and online at Jordan Samuel Skin. We, of course, cannot ship globally. We're going to try to bully cult Beauty into carrying it.

A (41:05)

But it's not an atomizer. Like, it's a spray. It's not like it's aerosol.

B (41:09)

It's the 80 alcohol. I know. I just. This has been like a learning process for me anyway, so I'm saving that. This bottle because this, at this point, this is actually all I've left of it. So.

A (41:19)

Sorry, I just sprayed it.

B (41:20)

No, no, no, that's fine. We're getting more. It's launching in two weeks.

A (41:22)

I'm like, I'm sorry. Okay, what is your. Not your product, but what is your buy it for life product? What do you, like, always have? If you're going shopping, what are you gonna get? Like, where are you going? What is it?

B (41:36)

Beauty?

A (41:36)

Yeah.

B (41:39)

There'S three that come to mind.

A (41:41)

Okay, I'll take all three. My starter for three is.

B (41:44)

One is yours. But I haven't actually tried it yet, but after. I need to get the balm on my face.

A (41:48)

Okay, great. You can have that. You'll be doing that tonight. That's fine.

B (41:50)

I'm so excited. I'm so excited.

A (41:52)

I've got. Okay, so we have a mutual friend, Kevin James Bennett. He's not great on WhatsApp or text.

B (41:58)

Oh, is that real? Yeah. I didn't know he wasn't great on that.

A (42:01)

He's not. He is if he's on. If he's awake and he's on it, he's on it. But if he's not, he's like, I forgot I got my phone.

B (42:06)

Right. Okay.

A (42:07)

So I said to him when we left the restaurant last night, and I said, I want you to text me when you try this. He went, I'm not going to text you. I said, WhatsApp me. He said, I'm not going to WhatsApp you. So I get back to the hotel, I get into bed, I lie down, and I get the text that reads along the lines of, holy. I've just used this cleansing balm on my face. We are going to talk on Thursday. Holy fuck.

B (42:26)

I'm so excited.

A (42:27)

And I went, you've made my night. Good night. Thank you, everyone. Good night.

B (42:32)

So here's the thing about it. I haven't used it, to be fair. However, I've used almost all of your other products. The new ones are the ones I have not used yet. You know, with fragrance, how you start to get like Amanda Lacey. I would blind buy a fragrance from her without smelling it because I understand her style. I know what's into it.

A (42:50)

Exactly.

B (42:50)

To me, I'm doing that with all of your products. But if there was anyone that was going to be like, oh, this is it, it would be a cleansing mom. It would be an acid of which I've used the acids and love. And the cleansing balm is going to be that. But the thing that I've smelled the scent before. I love the scent. I love the pink. I love the orangey gold. But what took me away, like, when Nikita opened that and like I smell. I mean, that was like, done. So, I mean, I feel like that's going to be on the. And we don't have a balm cleanser, so that's. You can have that as your number one then. I call it deep tissue repair.

A (43:21)

But we all call it deep tissue repair. Peptide Kate. I understand. I mean, it's a. So surprisingly, she got away with calling it deep tissue repair for so long.

B (43:29)

Like, the more you know. Right. And yeah, now.

A (43:31)

But I understand. But it's always going to be.

B (43:32)

What do they call it?

A (43:33)

It's always going to be dtr. To those that know.

B (43:35)

Yes. We're like, I mean, so that Peptide.

A (43:37)

It's not peptide K8. Yes, it's peptide Kate.

B (43:41)

Peptide Kate. Oh, my God, the texture, the smell. I love how the slip the sill.

A (43:47)

Like, oh, God, this. It makes me do that.

B (43:51)

And I know they came out with the other one that was very similar.

A (43:53)

No, it's not.

B (43:54)

But it's not the same.

A (43:54)

Not a patch. Not a patch. They tried to sell me down that river. I was like, I appreciate it. It's a good product. It's not Peptide cake.

B (44:00)

Same. I felt the same way. I was like, okay, no, I'm Eunice and sit down.

A (44:03)

Bring back nourishing oil free and I'll talk to you.

B (44:06)

And I think, you know, the other product, it's going to blend with the first one, but it's because of you.

A (44:13)

Because of you. Can't help it. I'm sorry, I'm jet lagged, but the ADHD is out of control. I've had caffeine and it's you and I've known you forever. I'm just smiling.

B (44:22)

This to me is actually a normal conversation because we're going all everyone else.

A (44:25)

Is like, how do we keep up? Like playing tennis.

B (44:27)

Amanda Lacey cleansing pomade. Because I had not retired from the ballet yet and was going into aesthetic school. And there was the September issue. And at the very end of that documentary about the Vogue September issue, they're in a meeting and somebody says, like, oh, my friend Amanda Lacey makes great products. So I was like, oh, what is this brand? And I looked it up and saw this cleansing pomade and hadn't known of a balm cleanser at that point. And so still to this day, it's the first balm cleanser I'd ever tried. And the smell, I mean, I love the smell. I love. It's also sort of how I found you, met you, and so it has good memories.

A (45:05)

I like your pics.

B (45:06)

Those are my. I mean, and they're all. They're actually all related to us.

A (45:10)

We might as well get married. Okay, what is your favorite smell of a product?

B (45:13)

Oh, God, the three I just mentioned.

A (45:16)

I mean, easy. I should have just rolled them into.

B (45:18)

One because actually, funny enough, so we are primarily. We had a senate cleanser, which we no longer have because the they, the raw material suppliers stop carrying that scent, which pisses me off. That's a whole nother issue. But we're primarily a fragrance free brand. I'm sensitive, delicate flower. That's what I go towards. However, in terms of scent, those three. I know, you asked for one. I would say those three. I mean, we'll add Lindstrom Blue Cocoon in there. Oh, Joanna Vargas vitamin C cleanser. There's a lot of, like, a lot.

A (45:49)

Of ones that we have. We have friends. Yes, for sure.

B (45:52)

I mean, the smell of your balm cleanser, that took me out, like, that was all I needed to know.

A (45:57)

You ready for some quick fire?

B (45:59)

Like, I'll actually be quick fire now. Actually. Stop checking.

A (46:01)

Okay. Sephora or Ulta? Oh, I know, it's tragic, right?

B (46:06)

Bigelow.

A (46:08)

I'm coming to that. So you can pick one of these healthily. It's fine. Sephora Bigelow or Duane Read?

B (46:14)

Bigelow.

A (46:15)

I mean, it's an obvious.

B (46:17)

Bigelow or Sephora Bigelow.

A (46:19)

I wonder why. AM Routine or PM Routine.

B (46:23)

Oh. Oh. PM Nice.

A (46:27)

What were you gonna say before I said am or PM you went.

B (46:31)

I was gonna say, to be fair, I just. I love the, like, quirkiness of the brands in Bigelow. And they're all like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (46:36)

And it's clean.

B (46:37)

Yes.

A (46:39)

City Break or Country Escape?

B (46:41)

I want to, like. I feel like I romanticize the country break, but I'm a city. I am a city person, so.

A (46:48)

But you do like to go to Italy, which isn't necessarily big cities.

B (46:51)

No, but we do, like, we love Rome.

A (46:54)

I don't love Rome.

B (46:55)

I love the insanity of Naples. Oh, my God. I love the insanity of Naples. I love Palermo. They're making up, like, which lanes are actually on the road.

A (47:02)

Why don't you just say you're in the Mafia and be done with it?

B (47:05)

Yeah, okay.

A (47:06)

But see, shopping online or shopping in store for beauty? Both. Oh, beauty and everything else, I think.

B (47:15)

Because I really know, for the most part what I love for beauty. Shopping online for beauty, shopping in store for clothes and such things of that nature.

A (47:24)

I know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask so that you can respond. Dogs or cats?

B (47:30)

Cats, because we have them.

A (47:31)

But don't disappoint me and say, but cats. But. But you would have a dog if you had a big house in the country or something.

B (47:39)

No, we would. We would not have a dog. It's just like, I really, like, I am obsessed with animals. I just think they're, like, the best, cutest thing ever.

A (47:45)

Cats are better.

B (47:46)

We love cats.

A (47:47)

Sweet or savory?

B (47:49)

Savory.

A (47:51)

I was gonna say shoes or bags, but I don't think that's really appropriate for you. I like the way you're like, well, I'll give you shoes.

B (47:57)

Yeah.

A (47:57)

Night in or night out?

B (47:59)

Night in.

A (48:00)

Now, you've been to the UK many times. You know the UK and food. So I'm not going to change this to, like, raising canes versus whatever. What did I say earlier? Chick fil A. Like, I thought raising canes was good. I didn't think it was the best thing on earth that everyone makes out.

B (48:12)

It is.

A (48:13)

Okay, just putting that out there. Nando's or Wagamamas?

B (48:16)

Huh? The one I know. The one I know. Waga mamas or whatever. Wagamamas that I know. What's the other one?

A (48:22)

Nando's is the chicken, the one that everyone's obsessed with. Like, when Kanye west used to come over for the Brit Awards, like our Grammys, he would take over the whole of Nando's and buy, like, $500 worth of Nando's for his crew. It's like chicken that ranges from mild, like, no spice, mild, lemon and herb, medium hot, extra hot. And then you can have the chicken anyway. And there's like, chicken thighs, chicken breast split. And then there's like. All the sides of the sides are like corn on the cob. I mean, I'm just basically an advert for that. I'm making just.

B (48:48)

No, that's great. I mean, I. That. That. That. Oh, my God, that sounds amazing.

A (48:52)

And it's grilled. Yeah, yeah.

B (48:54)

Nando's.

A (48:55)

Nando's. Yeah. In the uk, it's actually called a Cheeky Nando's. It's like, should we go for Cheeky Nando's?

B (49:01)

Oh, I wanna.

A (49:02)

And we would have a Cheeky Nando's for lunch in the office. Like, we're gonna get a Cheeky Nando's, guys. And everyone's like, oh. So when I'm doing interviewing people in the uk, I don't even say Nando's or Wagamamas. I would say, like, here I'd have to say, what's your McDonald's order?

B (49:13)

Right?

A (49:13)

So it's what you watch your Nando's order and people just list it off. That sounds in the way that I once caught out my stepdad, who used to swear blind to my mother that he wasn't eating extra food at work because he was putting on weight. And my mom would go, I make your lunch, right? Like, my mother never swore in her life. I've heard her say maybe once she never swore, but in her head, I know she's going, you're a liar. Like, literally. And he would go, I don't eat anything outside of my lunch. What are you talking about? And I once went, steve, I'm going to pop to Subway. Do you want anything? And he listed his order like he was in Starbucks, right? And I was like, yeah, you do two lunches, dude, I'm gonna grass you up. And I literally went to my mom, went, mum, guess what? She was like. I said, I've. I now know where Steve gets his second lunch, because I think she thought he was having an affair. As if. Oh, you're never going to go near any. Anything that's near my mother's level, is it? And I said, I just asked Steve what he wanted, if you want anything for Subway. And he listed off his order, like, immaculately down to the bread, toasted with this. And then she was like. And that was it. I'm like, I'm always going to grass you up to Mum. She goes downstairs, like, you know, you eat Subway. And he's like, well, you are. What? So here it would be, what's your McDonald's order? Or basically, what's your favorite takeout or fast food? Yes.

B (50:24)

Oh.

A (50:25)

Oh, it's an important question.

B (50:27)

Yeah, no, it's. I actually feel like it is Burger King. I really enjoy a Whopper. I really enjoy a Whopper. And, like, no, don't love the Burger King fries as much, but a Whopper for sure.

A (50:46)

No Burger King do good fries.

B (50:47)

If they are fresh, they do good fries. They are not my favorite fries, but.

A (50:51)

They can also swing it for me if they're next to McDonald's cuz they do onion rings and I am an onion ring. I same get me an onion, fry it. I'm happy.

B (51:00)

Burger King, I would say actually.

A (51:02)

Nice. Okay. I mean we're tacky and I love it.

B (51:05)

I know. But I really like a Whopper. I just feel like the flavors are right. Like it's good, it's.

A (51:09)

I feel like, I feel like we're ending on a good spot because I want to save some. Two other key questions for chats. We'll see. Because I feel like the vibe is going to be different and you'll be even more open and we'll just get even ruder. So jp my friend, thank you so much for. Thank you being here. I mean I'm going to be seeing you like three times while I'm here. What a joy.

B (51:31)

No, I can't wait.

A (51:32)

And good luck with the fragrance.

B (51:34)

Thank you.

A (51:34)

What can we expect next year? Newness.

B (51:38)

Yes. But less than this year.

A (51:41)

It's too expensive.

B (51:42)

It's too expensive.

A (51:42)

Everything is more expensive now, guys. Everything.

B (51:45)

Everything's more expensive. Minimums are going up. So even if like there was one time where we found a formula for something and then they were like, oh, like the main active in this now basically you would have to buy like yes and like or the price goes up and so there will be less. There are two things. Excuse me. There's actually three things that are completed for next year. We don't know if we're gonna bring them out. One is a second fragrance which is Capri based scent. Like a late August Capri. So different than like people would think like lemon and sea, but it's not that. And they do very small runs. So that is actually a much more possibility. Yes, that's a big possibility. And then bringing a retinol back is a possibility but it's lower on the totem pole because for what we specialize in, we really have that built out.

A (52:30)

Yeah.

B (52:30)

But you'll see updates in packaging. Yeah. Like moving to more post consumer recycled packaging.

A (52:36)

No one cares.

B (52:37)

I know they don't. But then getting the testing for all of that. Also expensive.

A (52:40)

They make out. They do and they don't. And then I, the more research I do. Like we do recycle like we have re. We have refillable on like the retinoids and the antioxidants and you have to buy four refills to make it worth the while. And no one does. They do it once or twice, they feel virtuous and they buy a fresh one.

B (52:57)

Right.

A (52:57)

So it's a bit like you feel like you're doing a bit for the environment, but actually, are you contributing to it? I don't know.

B (53:02)

Harsh reality, but it is the reality. But. But yes. I mean, still, like chugging along.

A (53:08)

More of the same. Yes, more of the same. Well, thank you very much.

B (53:10)

Thank you. I'm honored. Thank you.

A (53:12)

Thank you. No, the honor is ours. I feel like I should at least be giving you some of my American accent, but I also don't want to put you all off and enrage people. So I will just say thank you so much for listening. Tune in again on Monday for another episode of Glad we had this Chat Takes New York until then. Oh my God, I'm so glad we had this chat. Are you kidding me? New episodes are available every Monday and Wednesday. Follow us. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.