Hannah Murray’s Memoir The Make-Believe (with Rhiannon Houch)

Summary

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Glamorous Trash: Hannah Murray’s "The Make-Believe" (with Rhiannon Houch)

Episode Date: June 23, 2026
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Rhiannon Houch

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Episode Overview

This episode of Glamorous Trash is a deep-dive book club discussion of The Make-Believe: A Memoir of Magic and Madness by actor Hannah Murray (of Skins and Game of Thrones fame). Host Chelsea Devantez is joined by playwright and mystic Rhiannon Houch. Together, they explore the memoir’s riveting, vulnerable chronicle of Hannah’s entanglement with a wellness cult amidst struggles with bipolar disorder, her search for healing, and the blurry lines between magic, grift, and mental illness.

Trigger Warnings: Discussions of eating disorders, suicidal ideation, mental health crises, and non-PC language as used within the cult.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why This Memoir Resonates

• Chelsea: Immediately drawn to the memoir due to its premise: “a wellness cult + mental illness + magic.”
• Both hosts have personal experiences with cultish environments and New Mexico, making the book highly relatable and unsettling.
• Chelsea: “This memoir is fantastic. If you have someone in your life who has bipolar disorder or something similar...this gave me the best first-person account of what it's like.” (03:26)

2. The Power of Vulnerability and Detail

• Rhiannon calls it “her nightmare in exquisite detail” (03:06), highlighting Murray’s exposed, hyper-personal depiction of delusions and mania.
• The opening pages and recurring motif of corridors and magical light set the tone for a surreal but grounded account.
  • Chelsea reads: “This is the place, and I have work to do...” (05:42)
• The book moves between the poetic and the raw, grounding mystical experiences in the mundane.

3. Cult Tactics and the Lure of 'Magic'

• The cult Hannah joins has classic grift aspects—manipulation, offering “special” knowledge, and the validation of one’s uniqueness.
  • Rhiannon: “For a grift to really work, there has to be some kernel of truth.” (10:05)
• The book opens with Hannah on a tough film set, burnout driving her to an “energy healer.” Her vulnerability is exploited by someone untrained in mental health.
  • Chelsea: “Science hitting grift – scientifically, your body holds trauma...but if you don’t go to a trained healer, you could be going to a grifter.” (11:00)
  • Rhiannon: “Somatic therapy is a thing, and there are people certified in it.” (11:49)

4. The Madness/Magic Feedback Loop

• Hannah is drawn further in by being told she’s “incredibly special and very psychic”—offered initiation into esoteric classes that function as an MLM and cult. (18:00)
• The book’s narrative (and the cult) constantly blurs the lines between mystical experience, mania, and exploitation—fueling Hannah’s breakdown as her intrusive thoughts are consistently validated rather than questioned or redirected.
  • Chelsea: “When Hannah could have been like ‘What am I thinking?’, instead, she’s being told: ‘This is the universe. Steve is talking to you. These thoughts are real and good. Follow them.’” (44:50)

5. Character and Scene Paintings: Humanity & Loser-ish Surrealism

• The class scenes highlight an awkward, tacky reality beneath “magical” trappings.
  • Chelsea: “It can be so gross, icky cringe and loser-ish while feeling very special somehow.” (24:43)
• Memorable comic moments:
  • The “seventh dimension” visualization gone awry—Rajeev: “I floated up through the stars…and then I was in India…[the teacher says] ‘You were supposed to go to the seventh dimension!’” (27:19)
  • Mundane music and food details anchor her heightened experience (music: Kanye, Rent; food: marrow-on-toast).

6. Red Flags and Repugnant Ideology

• The cult employs clear, disturbing hierarchy and supremacist language, e.g.: “The dregs of society are…prostitutes. [And] they should not be alive.” (31:27)
• Deep dive into “magical” race hierarchies, “vampire races,” and appropriation.
• Steve, the cult leader, is introduced as a cliché amalgam of cult tropes (martial arts, mystic titles, and performative charisma), frequently using inappropriate and racist language as boundary-testing and a grooming tool. (36:55)

7. Mental Illness and Spiritual Abuse

• The cult’s invalidation of mental health, casting Hannah’s manic break as demonic possession and attempting an exorcism rather than seeking proper care.
  • Rhiannon: “This is my beef with a lot of [the] ‘light warrior’ community—the assumption is that it’s something demonic because they don’t believe in bipolar disorder.” (50:05)
• Steve manipulates Hannah even as she reaches out from her psychiatric hold, telling her that evil targeted her because she’s “so special and powerful.”
  • Chelsea reads: “Your potential was a threat to...evil. So evil attacked you and attempted to stop you from finding the magic that’s inside you...” (53:34)

8. Navigating Recovery—Slowness vs. Miracles

• The memoir’s conclusion powerfully depicts the slow, unglamorous reality of recovery: therapy, medication, disappointment, re-engaging with daily life.
  • Chelsea reads: “It was not like magic...But when you’ve been certain you’ll never feel good again, even ‘okay’ is a miracle.” (63:47)
• Healing is shown as dull, incremental: “Healing is not sexy...it's very mundane.” – Rhiannon (63:47)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the cult’s validation:
  “You’re not like other people. I feel like you could handle something a little more powerful.” – Chelsea, paraphrasing (12:11)
• On “specialness” as manipulation:
  “Having that validated and having someone be like, you're right. That feeling you have, like, is correct.” – Chelsea (12:34)
• On the MLM/cult pipeline:
  “You can become a this, you can become a this...and then make money and bring others in...” – Chelsea (33:05)
• On pseudoscience and grift:
  “At the end of the day, I needed trauma therapy and I needed meds for PTSD. I just did. I needed true medical care. And I feel angry that this world kept me from it, and I think it kept Hannah from it as well.” – Chelsea (65:14)
• On healing:
  “Healing is very hard because healing is very mundane.” – Rhiannon (63:47)
• On memoir as magic:
  “For me, memoirs are magic...There’s almost nothing more magical to me than someone describing in great detail something you thought only happened to you. And the moment you realize it happened to someone else, you’re set free.” – Chelsea (72:59)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Book Introduction & Trigger Warnings: [00:35–03:06]
• Why Rhiannon was the perfect guest: [02:29–03:26]
• Opening pages and voice of the memoir: [04:20–05:42]
• Navigating magic, grift, and skepticism: [08:56–11:49]
• Hannah’s entry into the cult & energy healing: [11:43–12:34]
• Cult scenes and class descriptions: [18:00–28:10]
• Race hierarchies and supremacist language: [31:27–32:00]
• Meeting Steve, the cult leader: [33:05–36:55]
• Manipulation during Hannah’s psychotic break: [53:34–55:27]
• Slow walk out of the cult & ongoing recovery: [55:27–58:52]
• Final passages—mundanity and magic in healing: [63:47–69:43]
• Book Dull Test & closing reflections: [69:47–74:44]

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Flow & Tone

The conversation weaves between irreverent humor, deep skepticism, and genuine empathy. Both Chelsea and Rhiannon use vivid, precise language (matching the memoir’s candor), balancing literary appreciation with the real-world dangers of new age grifters, cult manipulation, and the stigma of mental illness.

They use specific, often darkly funny anecdotes to break down the sometimes surreal, often devastating reality of the memoir—and their own brushes with the worlds of magic and mental health.

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Final Thoughts

The Make-Believe is lauded for its gutsy, specific, and unvarnished account of living inside mania and a cult. Chelsea and Rhiannon emphasize that true healing is slow, anti-climactic, and unglamorous—but also, in its way, miraculous. The episode is both an endorsement of the memoir and a cautionary tale about the seductions of magical thinking (and the urgent need for compassion and mental health literacy).

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For More

• Hidden History of Magic Podcast: Rhiannon Houch’s show, exploring true stories of magic (Chelsea is a guest on an upcoming episode about astrologer Joan Quigley).
• Memoir Writing Advice: “Tell your truth—the truth that will set you free, not just the truth that will please others.” (74:42)

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Summary by Glamorous Trash, June 2026

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea Vontes. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today we are book clubbing the Make Believe A Memoir of Magic and Madness by actor Hannah Marie, which comes out today, June 23rd. So the book is out today. If you are listen to this episode the Day It Drops. Now, you might know Hannah as Cassie from the original UK teen series Skins or as Gilly on Game of Thrones, which is how she first got on my radar. She's been in films, she's been on stage on the West End, and as we'll get into this book, she was part of a wellness cult. And obviously when I saw that was the premise of the memoir, I knew I was going to pick it up. And I have to say this memoir is fantastic. I can't wait to hear what my guest thinks. But just a trigger warning here for talk of eating disorders, suicidal ideation, very difficult mental health discussions and some non PC language used within the cult. So always take care when listening. This is an absolutely wild ride. Now let's dive in. My guest today is Rhiannon Hauk. Rhiannon is an award winning playwright and podcast producer who who is currently the co host of the Hidden History of Magic with fellow cookie Aaron Bagwell, who has also been on this podcast, beyond the Mic. Rhiannon is a mystic, herbalist and intuitive energy healer and she is a fervent believer in magic. And I am actually on an upcoming episode on Rhiannon's podcast. It's an episode about Joan Quigley who was the psychic to Ronald and Nancy Reagan. And that episode is coming out soon, right Rhiannon?

[C]

The same week?

[B]

Yes, the same week. All right, so I reached out to you to do this book before I knew what was in it because it had the title of A Memoir of Magic and Madness. And having just read your bio, everyone should realize I immediately thought of Rhiannon. I was like, whatever is in here, I have to do this with Briannan. And I think what is really crazy to me is that we did a bonus episode on your podcast and we discussed why I am often a skeptic of magic and new age woo wooness. And the answer I gave is it not the plot of her memoir?

[C]

I know it is absolutely it. And I'm so excited to have this conversation with you because of your stance on magic and because of where I fall on magic. And also, this memoir is literally my nightmare in exquisite detail.

[B]

Overall, my take is that one. This is one I recommend y' all read. I don't always recommend that you read the memoirs on this podcast. This is one that I sat down. I was supposed to read five other books first. I just opened this to be like, what is this? By the time I got off my couch, I had finished it. So I actually read this a while ago. And then the other thing I would say is that if you have someone in your life who has bipolar disorder or anything similar in the mental health field, that this book gave me the best first person account of what it's like to have that type of thing. You're dealing with your mental health. Cause I've been outside of it. I've been close to people, but this was, I thought, an incredible experience of what it's like to live with bipolar. Now, that being said, there's a bunch of magic shit we're gonna get into as well. Tell me, what did you think of this memoir? I thought besides it being your nightmare.

[C]

Well, it's mostly my nightmare because it is such a personal and vulnerable and specific account of her delusions, what she was thinking in every moment of the process. And bipolar disorder runs in my family. And it's one of those things where it presents itself somewhere in your 20s and it feels like a time bomb or something that I had dealt with. And so I feel like her specificity in how much she was willing to share about what it's actually like to be inside was so beautiful. I was on this wild rollercoaster ride of what I thought was like the cult versus the mental health stuff versus her experience versus what was kind of she was pulled into, which was fun and it took a turn all the time. And I feel like the first two pages of this book are perfect. I agree.

[B]

Full cosign. I wrote perfect poetry. Like the most incredible beginning to a book.

[C]

Yes. And the whole thing feels like these first two pages where you feel her experience of Walking through this corridor, and everything is magic and light and powerful, and you can feel her power. And then you turn the page over, but everything's different.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know what? Let's read just a tiny bit of the first page to give people this idea. This is the place, and I have work to do. I realize on some level where I am a psychiatric ward, an asylum, a place for the mentally ill. This is my work and my service to heal everyone here. I walk through the corridor and see a woman with her lips sewn shut. I will be a beacon of light, and the light emanating from me will heal everyone in this place. My mother is here. My mother a librarian. My mother an owl. My mother's walking beside me and she is smiling. She is carrying bags filled with papers. The official record, the library of my life. My mother can contain the past, can be an anchor. She looks so delighted in this moment, so pleased with her role. And that's just the first two paragraphs. And then we get to just a paragraph from the very end. In the black, in the darkness, my body is manipulated by him. My spine bends backward. My whole body curves into a wheel. My hands touch the floor. And a moment later, my feet leave the ground and flip flop over my head. I am as fluid as a snake. I am a killer. I am his servant, his acolyte. I am trained, the perfect weapon. He could instruct me to murder, and I would do it without a second thought. I would die for him. I would kill for him, because he is all and everything there is. And it ends with the phrase, magic is real. I can't believe what a psychic moment I had in picking you to be my guest for this, given what you just said about your experience, because I think this is such a. I'm not sure if delicate is the right word, but this contains multiple subjects that must be specifically and accurately talked about in order to not cause further harm. And so I'm approaching this book also with a lot of caution of, like, gosh, I hope I can even, like, navigate this conversation correctly. Because what she did in the book I thought was astounding. Both from crafts like, usually writing in a manic first person narrative is just not something I'm gonna want to read at all. And usually there's not great storytelling or story building. And the way she takes you through her mind so that you would choose every step she chooses until it starts turning underneath your feet. I imagine. And I'm not imagining from a faraway land. I am imagining from growing up near and next to many grifting cults in my life. Hot brag that this is exactly what it feels like. And you and I both share something else, which is having lived in New Mexico.

[C]

Oh, yes.

[B]

Which New Mexico. The white people there love a cult. They love a cult. Would you agree?

[C]

Yes. But I would also argue on the magic side of things, that. And on the Mexican side of things, that magic is all very real or the supernatural has such a presence in New Mexico. Like, I'm looking at a Kokopelli picture that I have, which is, like a trickster God who was part of all of the decor in every house I've ever lived in. And I know so many people who do. And I feel like it's such a part of Mexican culture, especially in that region, that, like, La Llorona is, like, just part of what. Oh, my God, you talk about.

[B]

I'll say this up top, and then we'll get into the story. But there can be a grift within anything. You know, you can get grifted at a car dealership. You can get grifted in Catholicism. You can get grifted into a wellness cult. So this isn't specific to wellness culture. However, this has been my personal point of view, which is that the entry level into grifting and wellness is a lower bar than other places. Like, you gotta go through a set of steps in other churches, whether they're good steps or bad steps. You gotta, like, be anointed some way, make it through a building. You gotta do some things in wellness. You can show up one day and be like, a serpent speaks through me. And if you manipulate the right people, they're now following your path. Right. And so that is, I think, the delicate thing we're talking about today. What is real, what is grift? What is being used and manipulated by people who shouldn't be using this language? And why. Why is it happening in these spaces?

[C]

Yes. And I think that in order for a grift to really work, there has to be some kernel of truth. Yeah. And I think this is where they really get you, is that there is this experience that she's having. There's something that resonates as true, and that's all she needs.

[B]

Yes. Okay. So diving into it, the book begins where she is shooting a movie in Detroit directed by Kathryn Bigelow. It's the first woman to ever win an Oscar, I believe that's correct. Made me sad when I said that, because it wasn't that long ago. Anyhow, she's going through this really difficult scene where she is playing a real woman who was sexually assaulted. And she's going through this scene of portraying a real thing that happened, but also acting it over and over again. And she's going through so much physically that she goes and sees her trainer, and her trainer says, you know, a lot is happening to your body. Maybe you should go see an energy healer. And this is new to Hannah. She grew up in a very atheist household. This stuff was not something she had dabbled in. And in fact, I think reading Harry Potter growing up was like her entrance into magic, which is tough because that's fully fiction. But you can tell it kind of taught her a language about magic that she is using. But she's like, I've never been to an energy healer before. I don't know what this is, but, like, I really could use body work. And again, this is science hitting grift, where, like, scientifically, your body does hold trauma. Scientifically, your body does hold energy and its aches and pains. And also, if you don't go to a trained body healer, you could be going to a grifter.

[C]

I mean, it is somatic therapy is a thing, and there are people certified in it.

[B]

And it has helped me quite a bit.

[C]

Oh, yes.

[B]

However, she goes to this person who is a Reiki healer. She offered her, not just Reiki. She offered, like, or, like, a full magical energy experience, and she chooses that one. And this is what I want to read.

[C]

I love how it's sold to her so much.

[B]

Oh, wait, tell me why.

[C]

Because it is this. Like, you're not like other people. I feel like you could handle something a little more powerful. Like. And the way that Hannah describes it is like, she's being offered the good drugs instead of just the street drugs that everyone else gets. And there is this thread where I think it's introduced right here of, like, wanting to be special.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Having that validated and having someone be like, you're right. That feeling you have, like, is correct. You're so right. And she did another sneaky thing that Hannah points out, which is that she's like, I can tell you what I do, or you can tell me what you're looking for. And she's like, okay, tell me what you do. And she goes, actually, I don't feel like doing that. Tell me what you're looking for. Hannah's then very vulnerable to this person who is not certified in any mental health practices, so is not able to see any flags within Hannah that she might have bipolar disorder and therefore just hears her life and then begins to sell her on how this treatment will heal her. And Hannah has a truly magical experience now. She describes it in the book where she's like, these feelings, these images, it's like coming through my body. She's touching my back, but she's not touching my back. And like, and here's how I know, like, I just went through something very special. Magic is real. Okay, this feels like a good time to take a quick break. When I was thinking about starting this podcast, I was nervous about talking and being open. But I was also really nervous because starting a podcast is starting a business. I'm not a business lady, I'm a comedy lady. Going for it was the best decision I ever made. I have grown so much and one of those places that really helped me grow the podcast and put out our first merch was Shopify. It was so easy and so user friendly and helped us put out our very first line of glamorous trash merch. We wouldn't have been able to do that without Shopify. You can get started with your own design studio. There are hundreds of ready to use templates and they help you build a beautiful online store that really matches your brand's style. You can also get the word out through Shopify. You can easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling to through Shopify. And if you get stuck, Shopify always is around to share advice with their award winning 24. 7 customer support. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com glamorous go to shopify.com glamorous that's shopify.com before we dive back into today's episode, great news for comedy TV fans. Every episode of the Hulu original series Alice and Steve is streaming on Hulu. From the producers of Baby Reindeer comes a new edgy comedy. Lifelong best friends Alice and Steve see their world implode when Steve starts dating Alice's 26 year old daughter. The once rock solid friendship turns sour as Alice tries to sabotage their romance and Steve. Steve attempts to salvage their friendship leading to hilarious hijinks and chaos. This unique comedy that can only be described as the first wrong comm proves that sometimes best friends make the best enemies. Alice and Steve takes a wild premise and turns it into a sharp, insightful, laugh out loud British comedy with real emotional bite. Starring Jemaine Clement and Nicola Walker, the series explores friendship and modern dynamics with A blend of dry, dark British wit and awkward situational comedy that will delight every generation. Watch every episode of the Hulu original series Alice and Steve on Hulu, and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation.

[C]

I think it's weird that suddenly she's like, oh, I'm being jabbed in the back with this magic wand. I think that ultimately, underneath it all, this is my belief, though, when it comes to energy healing. And I think cosmology can be, like, super personal. But for me, technically, all of it is just a permission slip to allow people to feel their feelings, to release things, to surrender to things, to connect with the greater fabric of the universe. And so it didn't matter who the practitioner was or what modality they use, because it's all just to hold space for her to connect with whatever energy is already swirling around her. And I think that she's. I do also think that sometimes bipolar disorder makes people hypersensitive to that kind of stuff, too. Yeah, but in my family, the people who are bipolar are, like, crazy psychic, too.

[B]

What you're saying is like, oh, they're very psychic. But also, what's gonna happen to Hannah in this book is she's gonna think she's very psychic, and in fact, she's gonna be having a psychotic breakdown.

[C]

Right. There's something about the way that she talks about her bodily experiences, too. Like, the sensations in her body is. I don't know what chemical imbalance feels like sensationally. People don't really talk about that. People talk about delusion, and people talk about hallucinations. But the body high is probably also something that we don't get to hear a lot in a firsthand account. And so, yeah, it kind of. It's so helpful when people just share the details of what specifically they're going through, because I think it adds this layer of, like, well, is it real? Is she tapping into vibrations and she's feeling the vibration? Is she resonating with something? Or is that part of floods of serotonin? Give you a body high, too. Yeah.

[B]

And what you said, it's just so helpful when people share the details of the shit they're going through. Theme of the podcast. It's the theme of the podcast. So she talks about how she gets this energy healing, and afterwards, the woman's like, you're incredibly special and very psychic. And, in fact, I think you could get trained in magic, and there's a course and there is a group, and you can, like, take this Special class for special people like you. And Hannah says yes. And she does not realize this is her entryway into said cult. And she writes this a little bit later. She said she goes to a Kanye west concert. And this is. What year do we think this is?

[C]

I think she said it's 2016.

[B]

2016. Okay. She goes to a Kanye west concert. And one of my favorite parts of this book is that she constantly tells you what music she's listening to as things are happening. Like. Like, I put on this song, I sing these lyrics, and I've never experienced anything like it. Because she'll also be like, I get really into the song from Rent. Take me or leave me. You know, it's like, take me as I am embarrassed for singing that. But that's the song. It was just so grounding. Because often when you're reading these, like, really intense, heightened situations, your imagination is giving it like a movie soundtrack. But when instead you have to be like, this woman's listening to Rent on the way to the wellness cult. Is the. Is how you realize, like, how. How these situations are everywhere and, like, not fantastical, but like, living in real life. I just loved the music throughout the book. What did you think of that part of it?

[C]

Yes. Oh, the music was so good. I also. I know that you hate this part, but I loved that she talked about what she was eating all the time.

[B]

No, I actually loved it in this book. I loved it and I couldn't believe it because it wasn't. This is specifically just as my writing thing. Tell me what you think. But, like, it did not feel like foodie descriptions for foodie's sake. It was story based. It was really intrinsic to the moment. What was happening to her brain, the choices she was making. It felt like something scene painting versus someone being like, I had chicken once, and like, here's what it tasted like. And you're like, I don't know why I needed that. This every food description I loved.

[C]

Oh, it was so good. And it was so. She was creating a multisensory experience. Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And all of the food that she described to. I mean, how many times can you eat marrow on bread on toast? But she was painting this, like, really rich table of food where it was so indulgent. And so it almost immediately put me into this, like, overindulgent, hedonistic. Her party moments with champagne and all of it was. Yes, she was really creating with the soundtrack. Even when I was like, Kanye. But Kanye's. What a perfect metaphor.

[B]

No, but really. And like, oh, and then I'm. Now I'm listening to Lemonade, and now, like, all these touch points. Yeah, well, okay. Talk about the Kanye metaphor. So I want to read this. She said, a few months after the show in Madison Square Garden, Kanye was committed to the UCLA Medical center with hallucinations and paranoia and later diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Because I loved Kanye as an artist, I leaned hard during this time towards sympathy and empathy for him. And I viewed his diatribes at his shows pretty much purely in the context of mental ill health. I also imagined I could understand the reasons behind his hospitalization. Having seen him perform and having felt the energy in the room, I didn't think anybody could be at the center of that very night alone. Messiah figure floating on stage without going mad. I talked about the controversies at the time with friends, fellow Kanye acolytes. One said he believed that in the future we would be vindicated in our continuous love of Kanye, that our children would ask us if we liked him, if we had listened to his music, and we would be able to tell them that we had. We were loyal fans. And then she said later, but I am not sure a resurrection is coming for Kanye West. I am no longer convinced that bipolar disorder is a viable excuse when a person's views have gone so very far off the deep end. Nor do I think mine and my friend's hypothetical children would be impressed by an unwavering devotion to this man, whether crazy or a genius or both. Still, I find it hard to cut off my empathy for him entirely. I find it hard when certain aspects of his downward spiral in 2016 would come to echo and resonate with my own. She holds so many complicated ideas at the same time. And then talking about, like, when is that an excuse? When is it not? And what she was thinking at the time and how she feels now, having gone through something similar.

[C]

Right. And even thinking about, you would stand to say, it's so vulnerable to me that she would say so explicitly that I was believing this, having it published now, having written it now in 2016,

[B]

only 10 years ago. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

So.

[B]

So she's going through her career. Lots is going on. There's a specific story between her and a man named Sam who she's having a crush on. Slash. Hmm. How do I want to say this? You tell me what you thought about

[C]

what a. I mean, this is technically like a situationship, right? Where it's unrequited love, it's one night of sex. Yes.

[B]

It's weird learning of lines, friendship or otherwise. It's some ghosting, it's some fuckboy behavior,

[C]

it's hidden, it's secret because it's her

[B]

roommate's best friend who doesn't want them dating. Yeah. And there was something so beautifully 27 years old about it. As in, like I was like, I think I was doing this when I exactly was 27. I think I had this situation. And also what I liked about it is that it's a pedestrian enough story that it's highly relatable.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And it really affects her mental health. This yearning and longing for this person who she's keeping a secret and going back and forth with. And it's causing instability. And so that's going on throughout the book as she is still doing her acting career. It is right before Game of Thrones ends. There's still like another season that's gonna happen. And it's post filming Skins. She's also just done this movie in Detroit we mentioned and she goes to this magic class now. What I loved about the description of these magic classes is that it really reminded me of to plenty of classes and trainings I had been to in that it's so. Can be so gross, icky cringe and loser ish while feeling very special somehow.

[C]

I'm so glad that you said that because I am obsessed with her descriptions of every person in every class because loserish is how she's talking about every. The carpet, the decor, the fact that it's like some weird room in a hotel. The way that she talks about like, oh, he's just like some guy they pulled off the street to be. They convinced him to be a part of this class. It's so fascinating, especially because she had already painted. Her everyday life was so full of like rich parties and celebrities and I mean, we're talking about doing a film with Kathryn Bigelow and then suddenly you're.

[B]

Yeah, this is a famous actress in the basement of this hotel taking a magic class.

[C]

Yes. Yes. Oh, such a. It's such a beautiful picture that she's painting.

[B]

It's so beautiful because she. She goes through really special magical moments in this class. They're trying to teach them how to meditate and take themselves to the seventh dimension and go through these meditations in ways that like, you can time travel in your mind. Right. And God, that all of this rang so true. It actually makes me want to like, jump out of my skin. Like one time I was being hypnotized in New Mexico. This is my favorite part of the story because it's so embarrassing to Share. Yes. For weight loss. Like, I just was always struggling with eating disorders and weight, and someone was like, oh, my God, go and get hypnotized. And so you think it's this magical reconnection with your body to get your brain aligned. And at the same time, I think I was, like, 18 and was, like, taking my tips from waitressing to be like, can you hypnotize me to be thin? And there were. There were weird physical and mental magical moments. And there was also, like, really idiotic things, like the guy being like, now you want to stay away from McDonald's. You know, it's just like you're dipping in and out of, like, such loser ish while trying to touch the sublime. Okay, so Rajeev, the other person she was in the class with, they go through this meditation, and the teacher is like, how was that? How was your visualization? And she says this. Rajeev spoke next. He said, it was amazing. I floated up through the stars. And then I was in India, and I saw my family, and I said hello to them, and then there was a big whoosh and I fell back down into this room and landed on the floor. The teacher said, you went to India. You were supposed to go to the seventh dimension.

[C]

I laughed so hard at that. Yes. It is so funny. It's so funny the way that she talks about Rajeev the whole time, too. He asked her, what do you do? And she's like, well, I'm an actor. And he's like, I don't know. Immediately, he's like, oh, my buddy is a director. You should do something with him sometime. And it's just that obnoxious conversation that happens.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And he's like, I'm like, michael Jackson. I'm gonna heal the world. Heal the world.

[C]

And so every time she talks about Rajeev, she's like, ugh, fuck him. And it's so funny. So then when this moment happens where he's, like, really excited about it, like, I don't know, it makes it so ridiculous because we already have this idea of who he is based on her descriptions.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Like, her beliefs about him. It's so perfect.

[B]

And then she talks about how a part of the class was to learn the 12 races of Earth. And she said, they introduce us to the concept of Shambhala. The primary goal of the organization, bringing a form of utopia to our world in which the 12 races would be able to live in open harmony with one another. The first on the list of 12 races was humans. Us. Then there Was the Lemurian race, the Mu race, the Atlantean race. Atlantis was a real place. And she goes on.

[C]

I just want to clear up that Lemuria and Moo are the same place, actually, so.

[B]

No, no, no.

[C]

In the New Age world, Lemuria and Moo, she separates them out. Cause this class probably separated them out. But in, like, in the New Age realm, there is a lot of talk about Lemuria and Moo. And Moo are the.

[B]

Which is mermaids.

[C]

Oh, is that what it is? The Moo people are supposed to be the people of Lemuria is how it was taught to me.

[B]

Okay. And so, wait, where was this taught to you? Why do you know this?

[C]

Because I have also participated in mystery schools.

[B]

No fucking way. No fucking way. Because this class she's taking is the Mystery of Magic School.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Did you have a similar experience at your school?

[C]

Well, no. Cause mine was like. It was during the pandemic. I am curious of the existence of the unseen realms. I mean, I'm a person that talks to plant spirits and trees, and I believe that everything is alive on some level. And so I don't know what I don't know. And I'm open to that. And so I did go to this mystery school online, and I could just take a. There was a theme every month, and I could take a class. And I did it for a couple of years. At the same time, she ended up being a person during the pandemic who was talking a lot about how Bill Gates is trying to blot out the sun. And it was all like. She went to Donald Trump's inauguration, and it was funded by her students. When people start revealing who they are, I get so confused. I think we talked about this when you were on the Hidden History of Magic, but I get so confused by people who touch magic and connection. And there is something about, like, we're all in this together kind of feeling, and then immediately go into, like, very racist, very white supremacist, very capitalistic, very imperialist, very patriarchal, which I'm sure there's

[B]

a great thesis out there somewhere about it. It happens a lot. It happens a lot.

[C]

I mean, it happens in this cult.

[B]

It happens in this cult. But also the Maha movement is born from it, like, where you take these practices and go full fascism with it somehow. And that's where I think things get really blurry and messed up, because she's being taught mermaids and fairies are real. And also that there's a vampire race and that the dregs of society are criminals, rapists and murderers and drug addicts and prostitutes. Her word are also the dregs of society and they should not be alive.

[C]

I screamed at this part because the vampires are the good guys. The way that she's talking about it, there is a vampire race.

[B]

Yes. And they're a peaceful race. And they're helping get rid of. They're hoping to. Basically, they're helping to bite and drain the blood of the dregs of society, which includes sex workers and drug addicts. How do you not speak? Walk out of the mystery school right there. Okay, this feels like a good time to take a quick break. I've really been in the mood for a refresh. I have been trying to change up some routines in my life and one of them I'm really proud of this. I have been eating probably 60% vegan, which I didn't think was possible because it's just so hard to do and it's going great. It really made me so happy to also be using a vegan makeup company. Company. I absolutely love that about Thrive Cosmetics. It feels like making a complete circle out of my new routine. And you can change up your routine for the spring sunshine. A refresh can be as simple as amplifying your look with clean beauty from Thrive Cosmetics. Every product is 100, vegan, cruelty free and made with clean skin loving ingredients that work with your skin and not against it. I also love that every time I'm putting on some makeup and, you know, trying to look hot that you're doing more than enhancing your glow. You're helping others shine. Because with over 150 million in product and cash donations to 600 plus giving partners, your purchase directly fuels real impact. So get out there and get some empower Matte precision lipstick crayon. It's so easy to put on.

[A]

It's so smooth.

[B]

There's 18 buildable shades or my absolute favorite products, the brilliant eye brightener. It is waterproof eyeshadow highlighter stick made to brighten and open your eyes. Amplify your spring look with Thrive cosmetics. Go to thrivecosmetics.com/glamorous for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S E M E t I c s.com/glamorous. I have elevated my summer wardrobe with one great pair of white shoes. They're like business white shoes from Quince. I've been wearing them all the time. They look like oxfords and even just like a summer dress. Looks all of a sudden you're like ready to do real things and be a business lady when you got oxford's on with a dress. Summer always makes me reach for lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good and also effortless and not just like feel effortless but are effortless because I'd like to put in very little effort to my day to day wardrobe. I save all my energy for like big dress up times. So that is what I am loving about quints. They focus on high quality essentials. They have beautiful everyday pieces like 100% linen pants, dresses and tops with styles starting at $32. Everything at quints is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com glamorous for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com glamorous for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com glamorous okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. And she said her blood was boiling. She was really mad at this woman, but was like, oh, that's one weird woman that's not speaking for this course. And again, this is just like blowing through red flags. And so she's going through these classes and basically she enters the MLM scheme where they're like, oh, you can become a this, you can become a this and then this level in this level and take this class. And then you will open up your portals, you'll get psychic, you can heal others. And this is how you get the trainings to then make money and then bring other people in to the pyramid scheme which she is not yet realizing is a scheme. And so I want to skip to the part where she meets Steve. And Steve is the head of this organization, he's the man on top of the pyramid scheme. And every class has sort of been building up to like. And then you're not going to believe it, but Steve is going to come and speak to us. And this is how she describes Steve. Steve was a middle aged white man with short silver hair, a silver beard and blue eyes. He was not much taller than me. He was wearing a yellow corduroy jacket, a red shirt, and the colors clashed together oddly. Hanging around his neck was a sparkling golden pentagram. I stared at this necklace. I stared at his face. He looked so confident. He exuded power in a way I'd never known anyone to exude it. Magical power. And I just want to read some Things that he says when he's giving this talk that she attends. So they introduce him as Ipsimus Stephen, leader of the Worldwide Order of the warriors of Light, High priest of Egyptian magic. Wiccan high priest. Went on and on and on. He had a thousand titles. He started to talk. He opened with a joke about sex. How we were supposed to do 45 minutes of cardio a day and how he'd rather have sex for his cardio than do anything else. He said, am I right? Immediately. Immediately I was thinking about having sex with Steve, about helping him get his daily cardio. And then he said, the difference between happiness and joy. The importance of joy. How joy isn't based on external circumstances and so it can't be taken away from you. He said, I was explaining this to a student once, and she said, oh, I get it. Happiness is ghetto joy.

[C]

Ugh.

[B]

Disgusting. Why do so many cult leaders, like you said, take on racist language? It's like they use words, language, talking about sex. I'm also thinking of Tony Robbins here to kind of like shock you and by doing it with such confidence, make you think they contain some sort of power.

[C]

I know. I think of it as, like, testing, too. Like testing the limit, where you say this inappropriate thing, and if you can get away with it, then you know

[B]

that the door's open to get away with even more. Yes. It's a grooming technique.

[C]

Grooming. Yes. That is.

[B]

Yes. Okay. So he says. Then he says this. You'll hear people asking why terrible things happen in the world. And you'll hear people saying, it's all part of God's plan. Let me tell you, it is not God's plan. God did not say kill that woman. God did not say rape that child. I've been all over the world and I've seen. Seen the places where evil resides. I know how to fight it and destroy it. And if you want to learn how to fight it, if you want to help me destroy it, then come and take the ritual master with me in October. Now, to that I said, that's an incredible sell.

[C]

It's such a sales pitch.

[B]

What's happened to you was not God's plan. There is evil in the world. This thing you have noticed is true. There's evil in the world, and I know how to stop it. And if you are a good person, want to stop it, you'll take this class and. And giving you a sense of power. Because it's not just heal yourself. It's, we're gonna heal others. We're Gonna heal the world. And it's a noble and good intention. It's also like, Scientology is like, we're here to heal people. Like, this idea that you are spreading goodness, then becoming a mechanism to make you ignore the red flags, because what you think you're doing is good.

[C]

Ugh. I can't tell you how many bad situations I have gotten myself into, because part of my trauma means that I desperately want to be useful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And someone's there being like, I'd love to use that.

[C]

Yes. Oh, a million times. I mean, even just in, like, a workplace situation. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Where you're just like, oh, my boss is abusing my time and energy.

[C]

Yes. And I think that people who would believe that there's evil in this world or who have known the evil in this world or the darkness in this world would be especially vulnerable. Like, if you're already gonna lean in and be like, yes, there are dark forces. I've seen them. I've experienced them. I know them, I sense them. Then also, I think they're also people who are just like, I want to know that I'm good and not deserving of whatever I experienced.

[B]

Yes. She talked about this. She said, looking back now at this strange series of events, I find it difficult to believe I went along with it all so easily. I'm a little embarrassed, even. And yet I cannot deny what I felt at the time, which was the strongest certainty that this was the right thing to do. More than that, it was what I had been searching for my entire life. This was the path I was destined to be on. I was obsessed with the idea of the potential path in front of me, the path of the warrior. And so right here, I want to call out that some of the phrases they use are warrior of lights and warrior of darkness. And when my mom divorced her first husband, who I thought was my dad for too many years on, like, the two visits I had with him, he was like, I am a warrior of light. Your mother is a dark spirit. Don't join her in darkness. Come fight in the light with me. Because he was a part of a cult as well. So shadow warriors, light work. This was shit I was hearing when I was, like, 4 years old, being like, mom's a dark light. Like, you're a light warrior. And, like, he also believed, like, dolphins created the universe and shit like that. Anyways.

[C]

Oh, no.

[B]

I find it chilling how much of this stuff she describes feels familiar to me and that this language is being used by so many people.

[C]

Oh, Right. Well, if there is a bad, then you can be good. So I even think that this boogeyman is the tool. Once I heard them say, like, oh, these are the bad people and these are the good people. You are in a fight for the destiny of humanity. I hear it all the time in the, like, in the channeling space, in the spiritual space. There are so many people who channel beings who are like, we're in an ascension timeline. It's 3D versus 5D, light versus dark. Oh yeah. And to me, all of that is Christianity.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

But instead of heaven and hell, we have 3D, 5D. There's like, don't put alcohol in your body. Don't have crotch. You're crotch covered with what you're wearing, or else you can't root into the ground. You have to wear a dress. All of this to me is like repackaged, like Christofascism or whatever that is. I don't know. There's so much here that is. It's like hierarchical and it's violent in a way, in all of the language that it uses. But in a way, I think that also makes you feel useful in some, some fight because we want to believe that we're good people and the good guys. And it's so much easier to do it in such a clear way instead of something as nebulous as like, oh, was I kind to the person that pissed me off today? Or was I like, how did I respond to the person who cut me off in traffic?

[B]

Absolutely. And especially in times like these, someone's like, hey, the universe is in. In a bad way and it's urgent. You'd be like, yeah. I mean, not. No, not, no. Okay, so now we have to talk about a list of movies that the magical school thinks people should watch. And she writes about it in the book. It's also on the website. You already DM'd me about it. And again, I want to talk about. I don't know. I don't know what I have to say other than like coming up around some like, culty woo woo shit. It's haunting. It's haunting to see that the movies Steve recommended they watch were also movies like, I remember people being like, and this, this will break you free, blah, blah, like, you gotta break free of the Matrix is something cult leaders love to talk about. And let's look at this list. She said there was a link to a list of recommended reading as well as movies to watch. I clicked on it. There were a lot of horror films, a nightmare On Elm street, the Exorcist, Rosemary's Baby, the Shining. Also the Star wars films, the Matrix films, then Mary Poppins and Groundhog Day. And I was absolutely confused. Kung Fu Panda and Kung Fu Panda 3. I have no idea why not Kung Fu Panda 2. What did you. So, I mean, the Matrix is misused for everyone's grift.

[C]

There are so many conspiracy theories that are mapped onto the Matrix. And even talking about like, ooh, a glitch in the Matrix, everyone's thinking about,

[B]

we're in the simulation, or finding religion is pulling yourself out of the Matrix. Or, you know, leaving your 9 to 5 and plugging into your creative spirit. Is pulling yourself out of the Matrix, realizing that corporations are running the world and you are but a bot. Is pulling yourself out of the Matrix, realizing that capitalism is good and you're giving into communism. Is pulling yourself out of the Matrix. Like, it can be whatever you want it to be.

[C]

They talk about being red pilled in, like, some of the worst, like some of the worst people in the world are like, oh, they got bread pilled, or whatever it means.

[B]

And now it means so many things. The manosphere and like, but basically it is. It's a movie that they're then using to pull people into this cult. And so many, many things happen. But really she signs up for this week long course and she doesn't tell anyone she's taking it because she's embarrassed that she's gotten into magic and believes that it's real. But also she's like, I'm gonna become like a warrior of whatever she is. And as she is entering this course and people are saying, like, magic is real. What you're feeling is real. Like, don't doubt this thought. That thought is true. This intrusive thought coming into your head is you being psychic. And so when Hannah could have been like, what is. What am I feeling? What am I thinking? This is a dark thought. This is not good for me. Or I need to speak to someone. Instead, she's being told, this is the universe. This is Steve talking to you. These thoughts are real and good. Follow them. Follow every thought. Because in fact, you're a magical priestess now. We have anointed you. They've handed her a wand. They're like, here's a wand. And she's immediately disappointed. She's like, this is like some Etsy shit.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And then later is like, this is my wand.

[C]

Can't let it go.

[B]

Can't let it go.

[C]

But that's because the wand spoke to her in her mind.

[B]

And she was told the voices in her head were the wand.

[C]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

And so another thing, she blows past. I'll just wanna read what's on page 157. Steve says out loud, I've worked in martial arts for a long time and I just wanna call back my theme on this podcast of alerting everyone to men over 40 who get into martial arts for the first time. Time as red flags.

[C]

Oh, yes. Oh, I'm obsessed with him as a person who's like, very mixed, who even has a hard time, like, being able to say, can I call myself Native American? You know what I mean? That he so easily is like co ops that culture. I am initiated medicine man in Native American tribe. He doesn't even name the tribe. He just says, like, a Native American medicine man, an Egyptian magician, like, whatever. He just can own it, no problem.

[B]

And karate, martial arts, jiu jitsu. And it's like, look, martial arts are incredible. They're an art. It's a true skill set. Why is every idiot fucking physically incapable loser who calls himself the guru of a cult telling people he can do martial arts? And then when you watch him kind of kick around, everyone's like, sure. Like, why is this what they're choosing?

[C]

Anytime someone is like, talking about how desperately they want to fuck someone, I'm like, I got to get eyes on this. I got to see what's happening.

[B]

And how would you describe this man physically looking? Because Hannah does get into a psychosis where she's like, I need to fuck Steve. I gotta fuck Steve. Like our sex is gonna heal the world.

[C]

He looks like a middle aged man with gray hair.

[B]

Does he look like he could karate chop an apple off of a fence?

[C]

No. He seems like someone who would be telling me that over a bad beer.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He seems like some men I've been to parties with in New Mexico.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Yeah. So, well. And so there's stuff on the Internet saying that this mystery magic school she went to is actually this one specific school. Correct.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

What is the Internet saying? Not us, but what did the Internet say?

[C]

The Modern Mystery School.

[B]

Yes, the Internet is saying that the actual name of this religious cult is the Modern Mystery School. That's alleged on the Internet. There's alleged. Everything is changed within this book. Purposefully, obviously. And also, as Rhiannon said, there's multiple magical mystery schools. Yes, unfortunately, yes.

[C]

And I have been to many. Thank you, Rhiannon.

[B]

I cannot believe you are the guest for this episode. So. So Hannah begins to have a psychological break. And she doesn't have any idea she's having a psychological break because everything is being affirmed to her as proof she is magical, as proof of magical ascension, as proof that something special has happened in this hotel room, course in the basement of the hotel, with her wands that just has a crystal glued onto the end of it. And so this is some of the most incredible parts of the book where she's just telling you what's going on in her mind and what she's thinking and how she realizes, like, she is magical and, like, she can't believe this is happening. All of a sudden, two police officers are there, and she realized that Steve is testing her and she has to run for her life because Steve wants her to be a warrior of light. And she needs to take off all of her clothes and get into the pool because that's going to cleanse her. And then she's coming to and, like, she's in the bathroom and she's with her magical warriors, and they're telling her she's going someplace that's going to help her. And she realizes that she must outdo them because this is the test that Steve has put her on to become the warrior of light. And so at this magical course, she began to have such a psychological breakdown that what you begin to realize is that Steve and everyone is like, she's possessed by an evil spirit. They do an exorcism on her. They realize this is out of their professional capabilities. And at some point, someone finally calls an ambulance and she is taken away, where she is then admitted to a psychiatric hospital. And her mom is at her side. Yes. Now, this is the part that kind of kills me about all of this, which is like, if you're a magical Egyptian master, prince, king, goddess of all, whatever, why didn't your exorcism work?

[C]

Also, this is my beef with a lot of the spiritual, like, light warrior community is that the assumption immediately is that it's something demonic because they don't believe in bipolar disorder. Like, they don't believe in a mental health crisis. They don't believe in mania. The way that she describes it, too, is that you're from her inside perspective. So she is like, she really believes that she's outsmarting these people and that she's ascending. And she's like, I'm about to die. I'm about to transcend my body. I'm about to reach the next level of. And I can't think of how many cults, these death cults, where they believe that you have to abandon your body to get to the next stage. And so there she's, like, experiencing it in the moment. And because she's in psychosis, this is where I got. I started getting really uncomfortable reading because I couldn't tell what was really happening and what people really said versus what her interpretation of it was from this psychosis place. Because if Steve said the things to her, like, we are washroom people or whatever, like, he was whispering in her ear and I'm with you, and he looked lovingly at her. And I hope so much that that was her delusion creating this story and not what really happened. Because if that's what really happened while she was in the midst of a psychotic break, he's like the most disgusting man on the planet.

[B]

And you know what? I'm gonna say that yes, it is. Because the truth of the situation is that this woman was having a psychotic break. And this man of no credentials deemed himself the healer at that point, even if he was saying something completely opposite, because he's put himself in this situation to heal this woman who is having a mental breakdown. Everything did happen because that's what happens when you deal in a mental health situation. You are not equipped to deal with it. I even say this for, like, I. I once had a therapist who just. She wasn't trauma trained or trauma informed. And also, some of that stuff is new. And so sometimes when I was having panic attacks, it was because she had created them. Because she would be like. I'd be like, I don't know, maybe I should. Maybe this is happening. And she was like, maybe it is. Then I'd be like, what? Oh, my God, are you serious? And she's like, well, follow your feelings. It's like, well, my feelings are telling me I'm fucking crazy. You know what I mean? Because that's just not the specific modality you'd use with someone having, like, a PTSD panic attack. And so anyone can fuck up someone's mind. And you shouldn't enter those healing spaces if you don't have the tools. That's what makes me so mad at Steve. And what's even worse, again, there's so much here that we could never recap and do justice. But she's in this mental health institution, and they give her her phone for some reason. And I do know this happens, like, where you're like, and now I've got access to my phone after day four because you're, like, showing signs of. And you can communicate with the world. Whatever she Texts Steve, and Steve starts texting her. You are a person with huge potential and the light. You have known about yourself your whole life. Inside, you have always known there's something more, something bigger. Your potential was a threat to. To be blunt, evil. So evil attacked you and attempted to stop you from finding the magic that is inside you because you would use it to help so many people. There is more. Brb.

[C]

Ah, brb.

[B]

Yes. And he starts pulling enough things like something happened to you in Detroit, where she was shooting this movie, and the bad and the evil. And it starts working with her confirmation bias of taking kernels of truth in her life and also keeping her in this psychosis and away from using any of the tools that might have been available to her in this place to help her get back to reality.

[C]

Oh, the way that she wrote about her time in the hospital. Because I don't know, as an outsider who has not experienced this, I think sometimes I think, okay, she's on the meds now, so she's probably thinking like, oh, I can't believe I went through all of this. But she's taking us through thought by thought about how she's like, oh, I knew it. I mean, even when she texts Steve to try to test the waters, like, I feel like you were communicating with me telepathically. I feel like we're connected. I feel like there's chemistry here. And he says, your feelings are correct.

[B]

I am communicating with you. Because that's his greatest wish. For someone to think this motherfucker is telepathic and inside their minds. That's how powerful he's telling people. So now he has a woman going through a break saying, I'm hearing your voice in my head. And he's going, yes, that is me. As opposed to, you're having intrusive thoughts that you need to seek help for.

[C]

You're so psychic. And I can't believe you sensed it. But, yes, I had to tap in to help you.

[B]

It's devastating and excruciating. And I want to talk about a few bigger things because the story is in some ways quite simple after this, which is that she slowly slow walks herself out of this cult, but it takes a lot of time. She gets out of the institution, they're like, you're good to go. She is not.

[C]

She is not.

[B]

Again, something that frequently happens as she discovers it's a cult and a grift. And people start informing her. She's. She keeps taking classes, she keeps giving them money, which, again, all of this was just so real. And honest and truthful to how nuanced it is and can be so embarrassing and humiliating to try and explain something totally different. But I guess because I already brought it up, like, after I found out my dad wasn't my dad, I still tried to see him a couple of times after that. And when I try and think about any. And he. And he was horrible to me from day one. It wasn't like, oh, he's not your dad. Give up this good man. It's like, here's this man who's always hated you. He's not your dad. And I was like, you know what? I'm gonna go see him again. I don't know how to explain that to you. And that's what she's going through here. I don't know how to explain to you why I couldn't untether myself from this thing for so long.

[C]

What's mind blowing about all of this is that it all takes place in a five day period class.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I expected that it was gonna be deep into this cult over a long period of time, but it took five days of classes for all of this to unlock and spiral wildly out of control. And I can see how it's so hard to untether from it because she's still connected to all of these people, texting with Steve every day. And Jodi, her friend Jody.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Who she was obsessed with. I have been one of those people where I'll walk into a class and I'll go, you're gonna be my friend. And then when we end up friends, I'm like, I was psychic. I knew it. And.

[B]

And I wrote a story like that in my memoir.

[C]

Oh, yes. Yeah.

[B]

You know, yeah, absolutely. You can absolutely walk into a room and be like, I bet I'd connect with that person. Or you can walk into a room and be like, I'd like to fuck that person. Like, yeah, yes, we get it.

[C]

And she absolutely did that with Jody. And so she said.

[B]

And then they said to her, you and Jody were both healed by the same wand. So instead of being like, this is my gut, my intuition. This is just how our brains can summarize a person in a moment to let them know if they're for us or not. She was told, it's the wand. It's the healing community. It's the class you took.

[C]

Yes. It always came back to the organization. Which is the difference between a grifter and a cult. Or, you know, like a cult and just someone who actually cares about your healing and well being. But yeah, because she can talk to Jodi, she's even able to share. She hasn't been able to talk about some of the specifics of what's happened because she didn't tell any of her friends about the organization. She didn't really want to tell her

[B]

mom because she was like, this is just a five day magic class. I don't want you guys to freak out about it until I know it's real. And what she ended up doing was alienating herself so that no one knew where she was when she ends up having this breakdown on day five. Yes.

[C]

And so then when Jodie shows up after, I feel like there's this moment that happened when she was in the hospital where she felt, like, so powerful and connected to the light and I never have to eat again. And so she pissed in a cup and drank her urine because she was like, I'm self sustaining. I can do this. And the moment that she told Jodi that happened to her, I was like, wow. This is, first of all, to put it on the page, I think is incredible because this is stuff that actually happens and people relate to it. And people are ashamed of some of the things that they think in their lowest, wildest moments. And the fact that she could tell that to Jodi and Jody just be like, oh, wow. And it was enough. You know what I mean? Like, there. There was someone who understood the.

[B]

It was validating.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And Jody, meanwhile, has gone through the same courses, is also, you know, having the same indoctrination. However, it's so tough because at some point she could have been like, maybe Jody's a red flag. And maybe around the moment when she was like, hey, I think I want to fuck Steve. Even though Steve is a married man. And Jody says, I'd ship that.

[C]

Right? Yes.

[B]

And so. And in moments where you could be like, maybe this friend isn't smart and good, she's thinking, we were healed by the same wand. We are cosmic, we are magic.

[C]

And you're affirming me, or even being like, don't you have access to really interesting people? You know what I mean? Like, do you have to have to date Steve?

[B]

Like, don't. Aren't you a famous actress? But again, what I love about this story is that, and we know it, this business is cruel and hard and weird and never 1, 1 millionth as glamorous as it looks. And Hannah's also experiencing the effects of that and trying to survive as an actress. And a lot of what led her into the arts, she later realizes is her mental health, which is that it was a catharsis to do acting versus an art. It was. It was a mental health catharsis versus an art form that she was loving. But she's not going to find that out till later. And the way this story, story ends is so incredible because it peters off. It's just a bunch of slow and tiny moments between her parents, between Steve not texting back, between Jodie between getting a job, between a therapy like. And I do think it takes a lot of slow and persistent work to remove yourself from cult like thinking it's often not an overnight. Like, oh, yeah, that was nuts, right? Like, he just never texts her back one day and she takes some more classes, sees some more people. And then finally, my favorite part of the book is the end. And she said, six months had passed since I left the hospital and I saw no real signs of recovery. Depression still hung heavy like a cloud. I was in therapy three times a week in floods of tears, talking about Steve and how I thought of him every time I saw a Starbucks cup. Which makes sense if you read the book.

[C]

Yes, the most basic thing.

[B]

Basic loser.

[C]

Listen to Drake.

[B]

Yeah. My jeans were tight and cut into my stomach, but I refused to buy new ones to admit I had gained as much weight as I had. At my monthly appointment with my psychiatrist, we discussed, once again, my overwhelming sadness. I filled out a questionnaire about depression, circling statements I felt applied to me. I am so sad and unhappy. I cannot stand it. I feel the failure is hopeless and things cannot improve. I feel guilty all of the time. I feel like I am being punished. I hate myself. I believe that I look ugly. I have lost interest in sex completely. My score, my psychiatrist said, was worrying. Once again, he suggested antidepressants. Once again, I tried to refuse. I don't want to take more drugs. I said, I'm scared they'll change who I am. I'm scared they'll make me numb. I'm scared they'll make me put on more weight. I have to say, said my psychiatrist, I find it somewhat ironic that someone with your history of recreational drug use is so suspicious of prescription medication. I had no answer to that. Here's what I would suggest. He said, I think it's time you come off the olanzapine. You don't seem to be in the danger zone for psychosis anymore. That's what they put her on in the hospital. I think you might do better on a mood stabilizer. And he recommends a mood stabilizer for her that he says is Much less sedating. Less sedating sounded good. There had been a sludginess to my days for so long now and then. I really do recommend we try you on an antidepressant. And that's when her psychiatrist introduces an antidepressant specifically for her mental health that she thinks could be a good candidate. And the side effects, he tells her, tend to be fairly minimal. Quote, we can start you on a low dose. How does that sound? There was essentially no fight left in me, and so I agreed. And then she said this. It was not like magic. My psychiatrist had told me it would take several weeks to see a shift. And so it was slowly and gradually that the cloud lifted. Slowly and gradually that I began to move through my days differently, to start to feel something resembling hope. And in a way, it was like magic. Because when you have felt so low, when you have been certain you will never feel good again, even feeling okay is something like a miracle. There was no sparkle, no wonder, no voices in my head. There was loading the dishwasher at night and emptying it in the morning. There was waking up with a gentle sense of possibility about the day. There were trips to the theater, my friend's engagement party, attempting to take driving lessons again. Was it really that simple? Change the pills, change your mood, change your life. And so, after searching for magic, the whole book, she finds the right prescription and psychiatrist and therapist for her mental health. And even though it is not magic and is slow and takes time and hard work, it is, in fact, the most magical thing she ends up feeling because she ends up stabilizing.

[C]

Oh, I cried so much at the end of the book because I do think that healing is not sexy. Healing is very hard because healing is very mundane. And it's very easy to want to go take ayahuasca in some apartment or in the jungle or whatever and think that doing this one thing, one time, is going to crack me open and I'll die and I can be reborn as someone healed. Because healing is very hard. It's very hard to choose every moment to take one step forward, not knowing what it's going to mean for you at the next step, not knowing that things are actually going to work out. It's so mundane and boring.

[B]

That's so well said because I think in the word healing, we attribute a good feeling to it. But healing doesn't easily feel good. Like, it's a lot of, like, feels like nothing, feels like nothing, feels worse, feels like nothing feels worse. And then suddenly a little. A tiny. A tiny step Forward stability. And stability feels healing and. But it's not magical like she wanted it to be. What I ended up saying on your bonus episode, which is that I knew deeply that something was very wrong with me because I was just so sensitive and so much pain and real things that happened to me, but also your emotions. And what was easily available to me was wellness, Stuff like this.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And because I wanted to get better, because I didn't have healthcare, because I wasn't brought up in the world of, like, psychiatrists and therapists, I turned to these modalities. And I now realize I didn't find help for so long because I was searching for answers in tarot cards and hypnosis and even Reiki, which can be great. But at the end of the day, like, I needed trauma therapy and I needed meds for ptsd. I just did. I needed true medical care. And I feel angry that this world kept me from it, and I think it kept Hannah from it as well.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And so that's where I am, like, such a skeptic about this stuff, I think, because maybe I was born into it and walked away from it versus Hannah, who came new to it. And it's so difficult because you can have. I listen, I still do tarot cards. I still have my magical moments.

[C]

Absolutely. And I think that this is where I am, like, very bad at capitalism. Because we do want a magic pill. That's where all of the cults come out of. Is this promise, this guarantee that, oh, she healed you. I can't tell you how many times in this book someone says, like, oh, no, you are connected to the light now because I did this thing. Oh, you took this class. Well, now you're elevated, your vibration's higher. It'll never be bad again. And to speak with that kind of authority is always a red flag, because there are no easy answers.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Cause even trying to find the right meds, it takes so long to find what is the right combo for this moment. It's not an easy process. Sometimes it's not gonna work well. But it gives you enough clarity to even be able to address what's going on. Yeah.

[B]

And what's tough is that just as there are bad Reiki healers, there's bad psychiatrists. Someone could give you the wrong medication. Like, it's not like hospitals are always correct. You know what I mean? So you can find a shred of, like, this fucked up thing happened to me in the medical world, therefore, I don't trust medicine anymore. I'm going this way or like me, this fucked up thing happened to me in the new age world. Now I hate all this shit. I'm going this other way. Like, it's really. It's all just so difficult.

[C]

It is. So I am an energy work practitioner, but where I've landed on this is that my task is to maybe hold up a mirror. Right. And then people still have to do the work of looking at it. People still have to do the work of unpacking it. And so I can't heal anyone. Because it's up to you. If you. Some people don't want to heal, and that's okay, that's part of your journey and experience, too. And it's a very valid response to some trauma, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And there are also things that happen where I'm like, there's no way I could have known this about a person. So maybe I am psychic. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I'll play with it. Listen, on this podcast, we have something called a psychic moment because of how often this happens.

[C]

Yes. And I think that there are people who are so happy to prey on that because they're. At the end of the day, they're just trying to sell a session. I mean, at every turn, Steve would text something that was just to get her to take the ritual master course.

[B]

Oh, my God, the ritual master course.

[C]

I will say that I love the ending of this book. The very, very ending. The moment that she said that she visited her parents, and her relationship with her parents is so different. And the way that that looked is not like, oh, we're breaking bread, we're laughing. It was that they could do the crossword together.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it was so mundane and it was so simple and every day. Oh, I'm gonna cry just saying it. But at the very end, I should just read it, right?

[B]

Read it. Yeah.

[C]

At the very end, she said. Standing at the kitchen sink, I peel beetroots to roast for a salad, and they stain my fingertips magenta. The color is vividly real. I am alive there. Now I find meaning and purpose. I get to be in the world, the real one. I'm lucky I survived. Air passes in and out of my lungs. Sometimes there is a blue sky. I drink cold coffee through a straw and feel a breeze brush against me. I choose to believe this reality is enough. I have my own way of believing that magic is real.

[B]

I'm so glad you read that. I'm so glad you read that.

[C]

It's so good.

[B]

Let's do the book Dull Test. Okay, first question Was the author vulnerable and the sharing of her truth.

[C]

Oh, thank God. She was so detailed and specific. I eat it up when people give details like this.

[B]

Details? Yes. It's an incredible gift. I would say, like, the best memoirs are gifts. And, like, this book is such a gift.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, second question. Was it entertaining to read?

[C]

Yes. I was putty. There were certain things that she would say. It was that. What is it, like Chekhov's gun or something? Like, if something is in the scene, it's gonna pay off eventually. And so I would ask questions like, ugh, what about this thing that happened? And then she'll answer it, right? She'll take you down a path and then turn us back into it. And it was so fun.

[B]

Yeah, it was incredible. Okay, final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

[C]

Yes. I think, like I said earlier, this is my literal nightmare, that everything that I am experiencing in the world is a delusion and not real. And I even was googling, like, late onset bipolar disorder. I was raised by, no less, Brianna, is it possible or am I past it? Because I was raised by a bipolar person. Again, I have many cousins who experienced it. And so it was this thing of when you're playing with magic, it's not in the world of materialism. It's like in the unseen realms. And so it is this slippery slope. And so much of experience to me is in the unseen realms. Like, even emotions can betray us, even obsessions. I have ocd. I do have ocd. And so even the experience of believing that something is so real because of how viscerally I have an entire experience of thought. Yes. So reading this, I think it helped me face something that I'm always scared of when playing in this space. And as a person who's like, I don't know, trying to offer healing to people in the world, like, what do I need to pay attention to? And as a person who goes back and forth, even as a person who's experienced so much unrequited love, and the ways that she talked about her love for Sam and Steve, I don't know, there was something that it resonated so deeply, and the way that she turned it into something so visceral and beautiful that it's like, oh, I do believe that she was destined to go through this experience. And I'm so grateful, and I'm sure it was very challenging for her, but I'm so grateful that she chose to. To gift us with this experience. And because of that, I don't Know, I feel it gave me so much empathy for my family members who have gone through this. It made me feel so. I don't know, like, I got to have a look into something that I didn't really understand from the inside, only as an outsider. And now, I don't know. There's just so much that I got from facing this. This thing that I've always. That's been looming, and now I get to feel it.

[B]

I completely agree. It taught me so much. It taught me so much. And, you know, for me, memoirs are magic. I have this podcast, and there's almost nothing more magical to me than someone describing in great detail something you thought only happened to you. And the moment you realize it happened to someone else, you're set free. To me, that's magic. And I just want to read. I know a lot of people who listen to this podcast have often thought, like, will I write a memoir? And we're, you know, behind the Bangs is about, like, writing your own story. And there was something I pulled out of here that I want to read for anyone who's ever wanted to share their own story. And I think what made this such an elevating book? She said, in the pages of this book, I have told my story. I have, I think, revealed myself. I have bared my soul. I do not know what my parents will make of it. I do not know if they will recognize the woman telling the story, if they will be able to reconcile her with their daughter. We are closer, far closer than we were. But I still fear they do not really know me. I fear they will be shocked. Perhaps they will be. Perhaps that is okay. And I think often people wonder, like, how do you tell your truth and not hurt the people around you? And sometimes the truth is hurtful. And then through that, the truth sets you free. And that's what makes it such an incredible book. And I think what makes great memoirs great is because they just tell the truth of the story versus the truth that will make everyone happy.

[C]

Ah, yes.

[B]

Yeah, man. Thank you so much for joining me on this journey. If you. First off that your podcast talks about true stories of magic. Our episode is about an astrologist who advised Ronald Reagan.

[C]

Yes. Ironically, the least magical person we have covered on the podcast so far is Joan Quigley.

[B]

That's so funny. And so please tell everyone where they can find your podcast, find your work, your everything.

[C]

Oh, yes. So it is the Hidden History of Magic. We're on Patreon, Apple, Spotify. We're having fun breaking down psychic moments in history And I'm so excited. Chelsea's episode is fantastic and fun, even if Joan Quigley herself is not my favorite dabbler in magic. And I also do energy work and I teach classes about magic, but mine are nothing like this.

[B]

I cannot get over that overlap in

[C]

this episode, but you can find me on Instagram @rhiannonismagic or my website, rhiannonismagic.com

[B]

which is again what led me to know you were the guest I had to discuss this book with the Make Believe A Memoir of Magic and Madness.

[C]

No, thank you so much. It was such. It's such a. This is my favorite podcast. And when I told my 8 year old son that I was gonna be on the podcast, he squealed and jumped up and down because he also listens to the podcast and is so thrilled. Such a fan.

[B]

Oh hi sir.

[C]

Hi Savion.

[B]

Hi Savion. A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer Marcus Homm, and our amazing associate producer, Dominique Banyas. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and Quince. We will link those incredible brands in the show notes, so go check them out. Everything is always linked in the show notes on Apple. There's also transcripts and if you ever have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.