The Manosphere and Lean In all in one episode!

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast

Episode: The Manosphere and Lean In All in One Episode!
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guests: Becca Platzky & Robbie Slowik (Hosts of Corporate Gossip)
Release Date: April 3, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode takes a deep dive into both the "manosphere"—a controversial, internet-driven subculture focused on hypermasculinity—and the latest reinventions of Sheryl Sandberg, famed for "Lean In." Host Chelsea Devantez and guests Becca Platzky and Robbie Slowik book club Louis Theroux's new Netflix documentary Inside the Manosphere and discuss a viral Wall Street Journal article about Sandberg's attempts to "combat" the manosphere. They critically unpack these opposing, but strangely parallel, trends in gender discourse, drawing connections to broader pop culture and the world of "girlboss" feminism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sheryl Sandberg’s Attempt to Combat the Manosphere

[03:53 - 08:53]

• Sandberg’s Latest Pivot: After Lean In’s waning relevance, Sandberg is now positioning herself as fighting the manosphere and the "trad wife" trend.
• Controversial Staffing: She fired Lean In's CEO, hired a 25-year-old (Brigid Griswold) with no nonprofit background but experience in AI. This has led to multiple high-level resignations.
• Hypocrisy Allegations: Drawing from memoirs like Careless People, the team discusses Sandberg's alleged problematic relationships with young female staffers—raising questions about her position as a feminist figure.
• Nonprofit Scrutiny: Robbie highlights high nonprofit salaries and criticizes the grift of elite leadership:

  “There is a class on top that is just skimming as much money as they possibly can off of this grift.” (C, 06:02)

• Girlboss Commodification: The Lean In/“girlboss” movement is compared to right-wing grifting—leveraging empowerment language while failing to support meaningful progressivism.

“She already is a right wing grifter in liberal cosplay.” (Chelsea, 08:53)

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2. Louis Theroux’s 'Inside the Manosphere' Documentary

[14:21 - 39:05]

Setting the Scene

• Theroux’s documentary explores figures like Sneako, Myron Gaines, and HS TikkiTokky—mid-tier influencers who sell young men on aggression, physical fitness, financial success, and misogynistic ideals.
• The manosphere thrives on controversy-driven algorithms—an ecosystem directly fostered by platforms developed under Sandberg at Meta.

Main Concepts Discussed:

• Pseudo-philosophies: The manosphere champions “one-sided monogamy” (men can cheat, women must be monogamous) and the belief that men must “earn” value while women have “innate value.”
• Internet Echo Chambers: The documentary shows these influencers breaking down under basic questioning because they’re unaccustomed to real pushback.

“They were not prepared for any follow up question whatsoever.” (Becca, 17:51)

Performance vs. Reality:

• On-Camera Personae: Many girlfriends/wives admit that the on-camera misogyny is a grift; off camera, the men are different—suggesting opportunism over conviction.

• Robbie names this:

  “It’s a manstrel show. They are performing some version of manhood that is not what manhood is.” (C, 21:34)

• When pressed, even top influencers acknowledge their pursuit is driven by views and income, not sincerity:

  “Because if I was a good person, no one would care... I don’t care about the ramifications of my actions as long as I’m rich.” (Paraphrased from HS TikkiTokky, recounted by Robbie, 20:22)

Emotional Fragility

• Upon light interrogation, influencers respond with rage, defensiveness, or canned lines showing insecurity rather than strength.

“They’re so emotional... the second they think something’s right, this anger and venom comes out.” (C, 34:15)

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3. Deeper Analysis & Parallels to "Girlboss" Culture

[38:35 - 43:09]

• Both Sides Are Grifts: The team notes that the manosphere and girlboss movements are marketed lifestyles promising transformation—but rarely deliver substance.

  “There is a Girlosphere doing the exact same thing, which is, I am teaching you to manifest your wealth. Come take my class.” (A, 38:35)

• Vulnerability and Real Impact: Both movements prey on insecurities bred by capitalism, offering simple solutions to systemic pain.
• Audience Vulnerability: The manosphere’s real impact is seen among adolescent boys seeking meaning and status—yet, most adult men see through its empty promises.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sandberg’s Shifting Persona:
  “She wouldn’t have to change any of the copy in any of the talking points because she already is a right wing grifter in liberal cosplay.”
  — Chelsea, 08:53

• Exposing Online Grifts:
  “Any nonprofit is like, there is a class on top that is just skimming as much money as they possibly can.”
  — Robbie, 06:02

• On Manosphere Echo Chambers:
  “They were not prepared for any follow up question whatsoever… That’s kind of reflective of the Internet era.”
  — Becca, 17:51

• The Performance of Masculinity:
  “It’s a manstrel show. They are performing some version of manhood that is not what manhood is.”
  — Robbie, 21:34

• Fragility of Online Masculinity:
  “Canned response, there’s no humanity, no vulnerability. And the second Louis just pries a little bit... these guys melt.”
  — Robbie, 22:01

• Women’s “Innate Value” as Patriarchy’s False Promise:
  “[The manosphere] seem to talk about the most...that women are born with beauty.”
  — Chelsea, 26:28

• On Capitalism as the Root:
  “The problem is capitalism. And instead of looking at the system, they just shift it to gender politics because it’s easier to understand than this very complicated system.”
  — Chelsea, 26:28

• Misogynists’ Emotionality:
  “It’s funny that women always get written off as too emotional because somehow we’ve made anger not an emotion.”
  — Robbie, 34:15

---

Review of Louis Theroux’s Approach

[35:35 - 36:58]

• The panel agrees Theroux’s documentary didn’t break new ground:

  “I thought Louis did a terrible job… you could turn on their own videos and see everything that I saw.”
  — Chelsea, 35:35

• Missed Opportunities: They wish for a documentary focusing on rank-and-file manosphere followers, whose sadness and vulnerability are more telling and may be easier to redirect toward healthier ideals.

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Final Thoughts & Looking Ahead

[40:25 - End]

• The Next Trend: They speculate on the eventual decline and “cheugification” of the manosphere, wondering what the next male internet persona will be—maybe back to "indie intellectuals" with handlebar mustaches.

• A Call for Empathy (and Arts Education!):

  “Manosphere boys, I’m really gonna need you to get some arts education if you are gonna continue to pull off these characters. I’d like some better character development.”
  — Chelsea, 40:14

• The Core Problem—Not Gender, but System:
  Empathy for sad, angry young people misled by both the manosphere and girlboss schemes—both symptoms of a late capitalist society selling empty dreams.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Sheryl Sandberg Segment: 03:53 – 08:53
• Sandberg’s Nonprofit Hypocrisy & Lean In Critique: 06:02 – 08:53
• Documentary Discussion Starts: 14:21
• Louis Theroux's Approach & Critique: 35:35 – 36:58
• Manosphere Sociological Analysis: 24:20 – 33:18
• Girlosphere Comparison: 38:35 – 39:39
• Closing Thoughts/Next Trends: 42:37 – End

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For New Listeners

This discussion offers a nuanced, empathetic but unsparing look at both the “manosphere” and “girlboss” industrial complexes. With a signature blend of wit, literary references, and sociocultural analysis, the hosts dissect why these movements are sad, hollow, and potentially dangerous—but also why people are drawn to them. The energy is lively, comedic, and occasionally biting, but always rooted in critical thought.

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If you enjoyed this, check out:

• Corporate Gossip episodes (“Amway, Amanda Francis, and the Salem Witch Trials” and “Larry Ellison” recommended)
• Previous Glamorous Trash episodes on “Love Is Blind” and “Sheryl Sandberg”

Follow the guests:

• Corporate Gossip Podcast: Available wherever you get your podcasts.
• YouTube/Instagram: Look up "Corporate Gossip" and “help Robbie demanosphere his Instagram.”

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Transcript

[A]

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[A]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea Devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in step two. And today we're doing sort of a hybrid documentary book club slash viral article episode covering Louis Theroux's new documentary. It's on Netflix and it's Tony titled Inside the Manosphere. And an article from the Wall Street Journal on how former Meta CEO and Lean In Girl boss founder Sheryl Sandberg is trying to combat the manosphere. Supposedly we've got some weird updates now. Let me bring in my guests today to discuss. My guests are Becca Platzky and Robbie Slowik. They are the hosts of the amazing podcast Corporate Gossip. Now you guys know corporate gossip. Becca's been on this podcast and Becca just added Robbie as a co host and I was so excited. Robbie is a dear friend of mine. Hi, Robbie.

[C]

Hi, Chelsea.

[A]

You get to speak first because you're the new guest.

[C]

Oh, because I'm. Because this is the manosphere that we're in.

[A]

Because it's the manosphere. Yes, yes. But I love corporate gossip. And when Becca, I heard you were adding Robbie, I was so excited. I was like, you both have to come on my podcast and plug your podcast. How has it been going, Becca, having Robbie on the pod?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think just the mal. Like the, the alpha type which I bring in. And yeah, if you're just listening to this, I guess I'll just describe Robbie physically.

[A]

Huge.

[B]

Massive. Like wide. Swole. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

This is all. Actually, she's describing her husband body type. I am nothing like.

[B]

No, it's been great.

[A]

I also want to give a fun fact about Robbie, which is that for the cookies, fun fact about Robbie is Robbie hooked me in Yasser Up. He is the person who introduced me to my husband, which I don't think is manosphere behavior. I don't think Manosphere wants women to be happy, but I guess they do want us to have husbands.

[C]

We want you to submit to a man. And Yasser was the closest one around I could find.

[A]

Oh, my God. Okay, so we decided to discuss the Manosphere documentary, which we've gotten some requests from. Also, Becca is our problematic Girl Boss correspondent. She has helped us cover memoirs like Olivia Nuzi, Kimberly Gargoyle, which everyone always thinks I'm pronouncing that wrong. I'm pretty sure they say Kimberly Garfoyle, but I know it's Kimberly Gargoyle. And more importantly, all of our Sheryl Sandberg content. And you know, the Careless People memoir which exposed Sheryl Sandberg. Becca, do you want to tell the people the latest?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Sheryl Sandberg update?

[B]

I just can't believe that there was a crossover here. Like, she's inescapable. Yeah, we decided to do the Manosphere documentary for this episode, the Corporate Casa podcast. I guess we dance around the edges of the manosphere because there's so many toxic men that we talk about in the podcast. But I couldn't believe when I googled latest on the Manosphere that Sheryl Frickin Sandberg's face came up. Obviously, we know that her nonprofit Lean in is in its last, I'd say, death throes of like millennial era relevance. And her latest pivot is fighting the Manosphere. And she made news because she fired, I guess, the previous CEO of Lean in and replaced her with a 25

[A]

year old Brigid Griswold, who didn't have any nonprofit experience. Nope.

[B]

And I guess she was the head of AI. But why this is notable for Sheryl Sandberg is that when we read the memoir Careless People by Sarah Wynne Williams, you'll remember that there was a whole subplot about Cheryl having really questionable relationships with young, pretty female staffers, including asking them to sleep in bed with her, buying lingerie for her. Like, when the news came out about Careless People, that was like a huge talking point. And so it's kind of bold For Sheryl Sandberg to be like, no, I'm going to double down.

[C]

She's going to lean in.

[A]

How dare you, Robbie. I think what's even worse is that people have gone and done some investigating and the highest paid staffers or leadership management at lean in, two of them have quit since this 25 year old was hired. So it can't even be the fairy tale of like, you guys. Like we said, if you raise your hand enough, you'll get a promotion. This 25 year old girl, she leaned in the best and she's the best. Because it sounds like all the people around Cheryl were like, what have you done? We quit. Right.

[C]

Those highest paid people, by the way, making $300,000 a year, which is now.

[A]

Are you saying that with shade or. Or were you saying that with praise? What do you say?

[C]

I'm saying it kind of both ways. One way is like to leave a $300,000 a year job in. What's happening in the job market is like, you must be unbelievably pissed off. And then I'm saying it with the shade of like, not just lean in. But generally, any nonprofit is like, there is a class on top that is just skimming as much money as they possibly can off of this grift.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, such a good point. I also, I just, in my core, I don't believe Lean In's a nonprofit because the whole thing was like, get money, girl.

[B]

So.

[A]

So you know what I mean?

[B]

And I'll. It's. It's so Amanda Francis coded to our Beverly Hills Housewives Watchers out there. It's just very much like, you can do it too, girl Boss, like all that, you know, 2013 coded, you know, pay for this course. Manifest wealth, come do a women's circle now. She's also like christening a submarine.

[A]

Yeah. If you're listening and you're like, what the hell is going on? Yes. Correct. She has declared she's fighting the manosphere. She has hired a 25 year old girl with no experience. People around her have quit. And then she went and christened a submarine.

[C]

She said in her speech, like, you know, the Navy is the most powerful fighting force the world has ever seen. And it's like, we literally, we're a month into an illegal war right now. Like, it's not the soldier's fault, but it's not the time to be like, this is the best. This is what I want to associate, associate myself with the people who are starting an illegal war.

[A]

But she also pulled in like, all the female members and was like, you girls, come be in my video about the Navy. And how does this fight the manosphere? Do we know of any other efforts Cheryl has done to combat the manosphere? In this new launch, she put out

[B]

a video saying that it's not just the manosphere she's fighting against. It's also the idea of trad wives, which I guess many people would say it's like two sides of the same coin. Like, by raising men, you're also like making women more submissive. So that's a huge part of it where she's coming out and saying, this trad wife is dangerous. You know, women can't have it all. And just if you're not a full time homemaker, that doesn't necessarily make you a bad wife or a bad mother. And like, she hits her normal talking points, but of course, what she never mentions is while she was doing girl boss stuff, she had like a huge army, for lack of a better term, of housekeepers and caretakers and all of this other stuff. So it's, it's kind of like, again, we've been here before, Cheryl, you've already been exposed for this type of hypocrisy, and here you are again, just hitting the same notes. And I think, like, to me, this kind of throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks is possibly, maybe she's running out of money. I mean, it's not cheap to run a nonprofit for 10 years. I think she's running out of relevance. And I think this is just like she's going to try anything. And I. She's going to move towards right wing grifter.

[A]

Yeah, you DM'd me. You're like, I think she's going to go right wing. Which I thought about it for a second and I was like, what's so interesting about that is that she wouldn't have to change any of the copy in any of the talking points because she already is a right wing grifter in liberal cosplay. But, like, she doesn't actually push for any progressive ideals, so there wouldn't have to be a huge brand shift.

[C]

I also just think if you're like, mo that you're known for is kind of like sexually harassing women in the workplace, you're going to fight pretty hard against an ideology that's like, let's get women out of the workplace. You know, you're like, this is, this is my feeding ground. You know, don't stay home. How am I going to get my paws on you, if you're in the

[A]

kitchen, you know, it is such a sick twist that this is what, like, that is just the last thing I thought was going to come out about Sheryl Sandberg is that she's actually the greatest sexual harasser of young women. I think another devastating point before we move on to the Man Fear documentary is that this video she put out being like, yay, Navy. I know this shouldn't matter, but it really, really pisses me off or upsets me. I don't know why, but she just hired a 25 year old girl. She was like, AI young women, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then in her little Instagram video, do you remember what song she's playing behind her Girl Power video? She, I mean, like, did she stop? Did she publish her book, made a playlist for it, Never listened to another song again. I don't know if like this Girl Lies on Fire is like a good song to be playing with a bunch of like soldier footage, right?

[C]

What are you doing?

[A]

It's not girl boss. It's not safe, it's not thematic. Like, who did this?

[C]

It's definitely not leaning into your 25 year old CEO to be like, this song is from the year she was born, probably.

[A]

I want to be like, this is grounds to fire her for not making

[B]

sure your social media team didn't do

[A]

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[C]

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[A]

Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. So this is a documentary that went up on Netflix. Louis Theroux is Behind it. Now here's how I knew him. Christina is gonna play a little TikTok song that went viral. This is Louis rapping my money. Don't jiggle, jiggle, it falls. I like to see you wiggle, wiggle for sure.

[C]

It makes me want to dribble, dribble, you know, riding in my fear.

[A]

You really have to see it. All right, so that's how I knew Louie from, from that song that went viral on Tick Tock. Everyone was making videos about it. But to set up this episode, Louis has made a bunch of documentaries in the past. This is his latest, Inside the Manosphere.

[C]

What would you say is the message? I coach boys how to make money.

[A]

Wow, this is a nice spot.

[C]

How to be outside the system, how to be proper guys.

[A]

Shut up, Bernardo.

[C]

Would you see me that way?

[A]

Did you look at my arms?

[C]

The stature's not saying too much now.

[A]

Louis is a British journalist, broadcaster and author. He's won three British Academy Television awards and he's known for other documentaries such as Louis Theroux's Weird Weekends When Louis Met and It Would Be People that he would meet with. And also he's known for a big interview he did. It was a follow up documentary about Jimmy Savile for the BBC to explore how the late entertainer Jimmy had continued so much abuse and sexual assault while being friends and being interviewed by people like Louis who did not know what was going on. And so the follow up documentary Saville aired on the BBC in 2016 and was a huge thing thing. And so he did this documentary Inside the Manosphere to explore, you know, the Tick tocking Instagram podcasting world of the manosphere, which talks about many concepts but the ones that are going to come up in this episode primarily are one sided monogamy where the men are not monogamous but the women they're with are. And something that they talk about a lot in the manosphere, men having to earn their value in life and women not having to. And a few other concepts of why they make this content that's pretty much has three components which is like get swole, get money and get women. And so he talks to some big voices in this space. Specifically he talks to Harrison Sullivan, known as HS Tiki Talky. That, that's my favorite I've come on. That's fun.

[C]

It's fun. I've been going by RS Tiki Talky recently.

[A]

RS Ticky. Actually, Robbie, that is an account you should do then. Nicholas Ken Day Balinthazi, known as Sneako and amru Foodle, known as Myron Gaines. Now that's the one I understand the least because Sneako and HS Tiki Talkie are given like fun superhero names of TikTok. But my man Gaines just sounds like a, just a new name.

[C]

I think it's a name that's like I'm trying to be by like kind of racist coded people. And Myron Gaines is gonna go over better.

[A]

That's such a brutal. Because that's kind of what I read in this name change. I was like, oh, just this doesn't seem fun for you. But yeah, okay, so that's what he chose. So he follows them. He gets a lot of footage about this, kind of talking about what's behind the manosphere overall. Take Becca on this documentary. Just what did you think overall?

[B]

I guess like the thing that I kept thinking is they were not prepared for any follow up question whatsoever. Throughout the documentaries, as he's talking to each of these, he'll have them explain what their point of view is and then ask a single follow up question and they all completely fall apart. And I think that's just kind of reflective of the Internet era where they've grown up. That by the way, in no small part was enabled by somebody like Sheryl Sandberg. And I don't think that should be something that we just gloss over. She made a lot of this happen. But when you're able to just, you know, spend 17 hours on the Internet and never get pushed back of any of your beliefs, like this is kind of the level of brain rot that results.

[A]

And when the algorithm was specifically designed, and they say this in the documentary, like the more combative, aggressive, controversial and fucked up I am, the more hits, views and clicks I get, which is how I am financially making my money. So I'm incentivized to always go in that direction. So yes, that's the Sheryl Sandberg of it all. Because this is how these men make their money. Justin Waller, he and Myron both talk about one sided monogamy, which is where there's a primary woman who is only monogamous to them, but then they get to sleep around with tons of women and do whatever they want to do. And that's one sided monogamy, I guess.

[B]

Isn't that just polygamy?

[A]

Yeah, except without legal binding contracts where they ever have to give the side women money.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which I got to tell you, since polygamy is also illegal, there's only ever one legal wife. So yeah, maybe it is just polygamy, except they're not, like, housing and clothing their mistresses.

[B]

I guess there's no agreement. Like, I go back to sister wives, and I'm just kind of like, that's kind of what Kody Brown was doing. But, yeah, I guess there was no family. There was no agreement.

[C]

Some of these women, I do get the sense, like, everyone did fall apart in questioning except the Justin Waller guy. That's his name, Justin Waller, whose wife seemed kind of on board with it, But I also suspect she knows the agreement she made, and she's like, great, be out of the house more. You know, like, I don't genuinely like you. We have nothing to talk about. But I've got this life because of, like, your grifting and scamming. So please go out and be with other women. Just, like, be away from me as much as possible.

[A]

Yeah. Also, when they asked Myron's partner who in the documentary credits, they're like, they have since broken up. But when they ask her, like, how are you okay with this? She basically says, oh, he's entirely different when he's off camera. So I know this is just a grift, and I have a feeling that's Justin Waller's wife, too, of, like, I'm gonna say this to camera to get money for our children. And then, like, and then whatever behind the scenes. Robbie, what was your take on the documentary as a whole?

[C]

It's just. It's sad in a lot of ways, but it was also eye opening in that, like, these guys in some ways were, like, shockingly honest about the prison they're trapped in and the fact that they're grifters. You know, to me, the most interesting part was when Thoreau asked HS Tiki Taki, like, why not just be a good person? And rather than push back and say, like, I am being a good person, or that he, like, really honestly took some time to think and was like, because if I was a good person, no one would care. I wouldn't be doing outrageous stuff, and I would be broke, and I'm not living to be broke. I don't care about the ramifications of my actions as long as I'm rich, and that's what I'm doing. And that was, like, a kind of shocking level of honesty and introspection for a guy like that.

[A]

Good point. Yeah. My overall take on it was like, when people say, do I need to watch this documentary? For me, no, it was really sad. It was really sad. And I guess the most shocking part is I just really felt for the guys And I felt for them, in the way of, like, all of the women who are platformed this documentary, and all the men are all suffering from the same thing, which is patriarchy. Everyone, once he spent a couple minutes with them, they felt full of fear. They felt sad.

[C]

I want to say I coined the term. I don't know. We'll find out. But to me, it's a manstrel show. You know, they are.

[B]

That's good.

[C]

They are performing some version of manhood that is not what manhood is. So they are locked into these characters. And that's the thing. They're not like they're lacking your level of improv training. Chelsea, where it's like, oh, my God, thank you.

[A]

Hot Plug, Second City Chicago, Manosphere. Take some classes. Even though I'm pretty sure I already came up with a lot of you.

[C]

But, you know, the second they're asked a question, and that has to kind of break them out of their character, and they have to think as themselves for a second. They don't know how to handle it, because everything is a category the character probably sits the most awkwardly on. The Justin Waller guy, everything he says is canned. You know, where he makes a point to be like, that car is bullshit. That's not success. Or Louis Theroux says, nice apartment. And he just responds, beautiful at Dusk, where it's like, that is a canned response. There's no humanity, no vulnerability. And the second Louis just pries a little bit and tries to get to that vulnerability and humanity, that's when these guys melt.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

When he said, oh, so you own this? And he's like. The amount of fear out of his mouth is. He's like, I rent, but. But I have four other places, and this is $20,000 a month.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And then he goes. He goes, do you have kids? And he goes, do you know how many? He goes, I got a couple. And like, as if to say, oh, I don't know how many kids I have. I'm crazy. My seed's all over the place. He goes, no, I have two daughters. I love them very much.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't want them on camera because I know this being on camera would destroy them and I need to protect them.

[C]

It reminds me of that. What's the one with Diane Keaton and Jack Nicholson?

[A]

It's Something's Gotta Give. Yeah.

[C]

Where he's like, I like to travel light or whatever. And she's like, what does that mean? Where it's like. Cause I know these types of guys, you know, who, like, have these canned lines and then the second you push a little bit. And I have, like, tangential connection to some of these manosphere guys. I know, by the way.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I know you do. Okay. You do have tangential connections. What's your view on it than knowing them a little closer than maybe just through the lens of this documentary?

[C]

In some ways it's nice because these people have, like, gone out of their way to make some people who I'm friends with, like, their lives hell because of their different versions of masculinity. But also the friends of mine whose lives they've made hell, like, deserve it a little bit because they play in this false masculinity space. So it's like you've left yourself open to this type of criticism from these types of people. But the thing that's never more clear than anything is, like, call it manosphere, whatever. It's a boyosphere, you know, like, the people watching this are 13, 14, 15. No adult man believes any of this. We talked about this on, like, the Ty Lewis episode as well, where it was like, adults in general don't want a Lamborghini because it's ridiculous. A little boy wants a Lamborghini.

[A]

Yeah, that's such a good point. One of the parts that struck me the most, because overall, I felt like going into this manosphere documentary, I wanted to see something I didn't know. And I feel like we already know that they're performing. It's for clicks. It mostly goes to 13 year olds who then that's what the show Adolescence on Netflix was about. Like, these young men getting indoctrinated into, like, violence and hating women. I think the most surprising part was yet again, like, that these men didn't seem very happy or they just weren't good at performing happiness well, like, because it just shattered so quickly.

[B]

I don't think that's their intention either. From my perspective of watching them, I think that they would view happiness as feminine and I think rage and aggression and always having a chip on your shoulder. You know, there was a guy in a New Yorker article about these camps where you can go and kind of have this immersive experience where they can turn you into a man. And one of the guys who ran the camp got in a fight with somebody, and he said the fight was consensual, and he got arrested for it and went to jail. But ultimately he said it was consensual. But there's also a part of me that's like, I wonder if it was like, there's so much like anger just bubbling up to the surface that where would joy or happiness even have any space to live there? And I think that they're fine with that.

[A]

That's a really good point.

[C]

I think another theme and just misogyny that you see in general, that from every, like, misogynist. I know what's up, boys? I see you out there. My guys, like, they have this deep, undying love for their mother, and then no other woman can come close to their mother. And you know, our HS Tikki Tocky, he says that as well. Other, you know, other birds ain't like me mom. You know, like, they stick or, you know, whatever.

[B]

Wow, Robbie, that was really impressive.

[C]

I grew up in England, you know.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's exactly what HS TikTokie sounds like for anyone listening. You're like, who's he doing an impression of? He's doing an impression of HS tikky talky. And it was amazing.

[C]

But that is what it's. They're like these other. Every. Every other woman is trash and useless because my mom, my mommy, he even calls her mommy at some point. Like, she takes care of all my needs. She fulfills everything that I could want. And other women will never stack up, and I hate them.

[A]

Yes, seeing his mom in the documentary was brutal because when he can't defend himself or go toe to toe with Louis, and so his mom taps in and starts going at it, I was like, well, she's a better speaker than you are of these misogynist talking points. For me, it was just really clear that the problem is capitalism. And instead of looking at the system, they just shift it to gender politics because it's easier to understand than this very complicated system of, like, why you don't have any worth in this world. And one of the main talking points they go on is that women are born with value and men have to earn their value. And when women say, well, how am I born with value? They say, you are born with tits and a vagina, or you are born with beauty. And men don't get to be born with that. We have to earn our worth in the world, which would be, like, money. It's this. This inherent misunderstanding from the very beginning premise, which is like, sorry, but women aren't born with beauty, you idiots. And also that the prize being sex, you are born with, like, a vagina. And therefore that is a prize, therefore I have to earn it. That was one of the weirdest talking points to me that they seem to talk about the most. What did you guys Think of that part of it.

[B]

Okay, I don't. It's weird because I was reading the Lindy west book while I was also watching this Manosphere.

[A]

Okay, Becca.

[B]

I found it interesting because she said something similar where she said, the patriarchy isn't working for me as a plus size person, where I don't get these things that women get. And I saw the same kind of thinking from these men who said, the patriarchy isn't working for us. Maybe there's not a connection. I just found that interesting. Like, it was like the same structure.

[A]

I totally agree with you. What I thought was interesting is Myron, on his show, in some segment, he had some equation he would put up on the board where he would ask, ask a woman, like, how tall do you want a guy to be? How much money should he make? What should his race be? All these things. And then he would calculate, okay, your type is less than 1% of all men. Like, how dare you? Women are crazy. Do you see the standards for men? What I think is so interesting is that he never ran the equation of and what women do you all want? Which would be, you know, a certain weight, size, a certain personality, a certain amount of looks that would also be less than 1% of women.

[B]

Women.

[A]

And they seem to not see that less than 1% of women, which is what Lindy's talking about. I am not the size to certain looks that the patriarchy supports. Therefore, I don't get anything from the patriarchy the way these men don't. And they don't seem to understand that. It only applies to, like, a very small amount of women, this thing that they're very mad at.

[C]

It's just such a deeply transactional worldview that, like, quantifies everything via statistics and, like, completely rejects the idea of just simple, like, connection and attraction, which just happens out in the real world based on whatever. Not everything runs through a computer filter of, like, this is the. You know, it's like, sure, what we all probably want is some version of the top.001%. But, like, as you go out in the world and meet people, you realize you click and you've never talked about how much money they make. Or, you know, it's just like, that's how real relationships are formed. Okay, here's my theory that's gonna put me with the manosphere. Boys. We ready. We ready to have an enemy on this podcast. A lot of adulthood for men is revenge for the reality of high school and puberty, where as people come into their, you know, puberty and sexuality at the beginning of that, the power is deeply imbalanced. Right. For men of the same. Right. If you're a 9th grade boy and you approach a 9th grade girl, she's very likely to date a junior, which in high school is a level of status, right? Suddenly she's getting rides in a car and going to parties, and they have access to stuff. And, you know, this is how those guys who are just like scumbag incels are like, but I'm the nice guy. Don't you want to be with a nice guy, you slut? And so that's kind of what happens to them. But that kind of like exponentially grows through their life. And by the time they're 21, 22, 23 or 30 and have some money, then they're like, now I'm in charge.

[A]

And I think that's a popular theory to a lot of this that men feel. What I want to point out is what I think I was maybe poorly saying earlier is that you're like, oh, a ninth grade boy to a ninth grade girl. She's probably dating a junior. You are only talking about 5% of those ninth grade girls. Like, think of all the girls in ninth grade who are fucking struggling, being called ugly, being told they're fat, told they're not cute enough, not hot enough, who don't have interests that are like, just men. Like, there's so many girls in ninth grade suffering the exact same way. Like all kids in ninth grade are. And then they point to, like, the one girl they want to date dating a junior, and they're like, I'll have revenge forever. I think that's what kills me about this construct. It's like they're not actually paying attention to women. They're mad at one woman, and then they're making a blanket state about women and feminism and what women get in this world. Because every time I hear them talk about all the things women get, I think, what?

[C]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When?

[C]

Where?

[B]

Well, and it's also like, the fuck? And I think you're right. I think they do operate with blinders on where they just see this one girl that they want and they don't ever open up the aperture and see anything else. I think, I mean, to me, it's as simple as they don't read, they don't learn other things, they don't talk to anybody who's outside of their one little world. And it just is constant reinforcement. It's brain rot. I really think that's what it comes down to is like, they don't have the synapses and the connections that most people have because they started with these blinders on and they never took them off. And so they're just seeing this world through this tiny little pinhole. And not only that, the only thing going through that pinhole is straight up rage and horniness. I agree with you, Chelsea. I feel bad for these guys. Like, I feel empathy. And it's genuinely sad because, like, you could see a million different people who could have gone down that path. But one person said, you know what? You shouldn't do taekwondo. I'm doing a chorus down the street and join me. And, like, then they're getting exposed to all these different people and like, like, it just sucks that some people didn't get to have that experience and went down that path.

[A]

Bringing this back to this being somewhat of a literary podcast, I do think it's brain rot. And I do think when you look at the amount of females who read fiction and males who read fiction, and it's mostly a women powered industry, reading teaches you empathy. You have to sit in another character's brain and body and thoughts and like. And it's an enjoyable exercise that expands your mind. And I think, like, reading Going down plays into this. I think, like, less fiction and more HS ticky talkie. Being like, this is the world as it is. Reinforcing that one thought, because otherwise wouldn't you open up your eyes to all the girls in 9th grade undergoing massive amounts of violence and sexual harassment because they are going through puberty now, Chelsea, they do read.

[B]

They read Ayn Rand and Ernest Hemingway. They read it. They read about a guy who has CTE and cheated on his wife and was an alcoholic. Oh, fun. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, you're right. Okay, were there any other highlights from the manosphere documentary that we should hit that that the people need to know about?

[C]

You know, I think that there. There's these moments where these guys start to, you know, their fans get them suspicious of Louis Theroux, and you see their anger boiling up and bubbling up. You see them kind of start to rage. You see them start to, you know, take it out on him. And this isn't my observation. I think I saw it somewhere on Twitter at some point years ago. But, like, it's funny that women always get written off as, like, too emotional because somehow we've made anger not an emotion. You know, like, somehow anger and rage don't count as emotions. But, like, these guys are so emotional, the second they think something's right, they just. This anger and venom comes out of them.

[A]

And they have seen such emotional breakdowns on a light amount of questioning. The only thing they seem to be able to do with Louis, and this is mostly from HS TikTok, is he just tries to make him look stupid, which he succeeds in several times. And then that's like, a point for him. But he never succeeds in making his theology or way of life make sense. But he can make him look stupid sometimes. And that's when his fans take his side. But, yeah, otherwise, Louis is asking them questions and they're having emotional meltdowns.

[B]

Well, and that was the other thing that I loved about this documentary, because there could have been another option. And I. Again, I haven't seen his other work, but, like, there could have been another option where you never see Louis and he's just like. And you're just watching this world and having, like, talking head interviews. But the juxtaposition between Louis, who's like a regular guy you would see on the street, and who there was. There's another moment where often when he talks to these guys, he asks the question, they answer, and he just, like, lets it sit there, and they immediately freak out. But it's just so funny to watch them talk to a normal person, a person who they probably never interact with, or a type of person that they never interact with in their normal life, other than, like, at the coffee shop ordering coffee or whatever. But, like, having extended conversation with an average guy is just very funny to me because they can't do it.

[A]

Yeah. Overall, though, and please disagree with me on this, I thought Louis did a terrible job, but he did a terrible job. I thought what he did was show up, ask some questions, let them sit in it, and then leave. But I did not feel like he unearthed something deeper. I don't feel like he even succeeded in turning their own fan base against them or showing enough of a weakness in what they're doing that it would actually make a dent. It just kind of felt. Felt like I could turn on their own videos and see everything that I saw while watching the Manosphere documentary. But please push back if you disagree.

[C]

I actually, just this morning, I read an article from the Nation that is basically making the same point you're making, which is.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[C]

Which was essentially that, like, there's nothing that you can. These guys are filming themselves the whole time anyway. And so there's kind of nothing you see in this documentary that you wouldn't see just looking at their feed and kind of nothing is gained. The other point, it did make. Which I kind of of hadn't thought about, but is true, is that, like, also, these are Tier two manosphere guys. Like, he didn't get the tip top guys. This isn't Andrew Tate and Rogan and Jordan Peterson. Like, these are the guys who are little. They're. They're the next part of the pyramid. Who, in fact, they're, like, funneling money up to those guys. Right. Join this thing, sign up for Andrew Tate's classes, and I get a little piece of that money. But they are the tier two guys, so they have even more of, like, insecurity to them.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I felt like the documentary should have pivoted or I wish there would be a documentary focusing not on those guys. Tier 2 or Tier 1, which have all their talking points. Like, they. This is something they live stream constantly and work on to just say the they're gonna say to make people mad. But the moment he talked to those two guys on the beach who follow Justin Waller and are deeply moved by him, that's when I learned the most about the. The manosphere, like, why people follow it. And I feel like there should be an entire documentary just, like, going to the people who are trying to become them and sitting with them. And also, I bet you could re indoctrinate them into something better in, like, 10 minutes or less. Like, I was looking at them, and I was like, if they went to a Tony Robbins seminar, they'd be following Tony Robbins. Like, they just need help.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And this is what made it onto their algorithm. It felt like. Like, they are sincere in their want to be better, and they need a pathway. And that is where. I guess that might be a conservative talking point. But I did feel like, oh, like, they're sad, and it's not a gendered thing. We're all sad. Life sucks right now. Like, capitalism has ruined our lives. You're saying lean in all episode. I'm saying capitalism all episode. But it's like, yeah, life sucks for everyone right now. This is the path that they have believed can get them out of it. And if they were shown a different path, they would follow that one. To fully bring this back and tie it all in a bow is Amanda Francis. There is a Girlosphere doing the exact same thing, which is, I am teaching you to manifest your wealth. Come take my class. And the only thing she teaches you is how to teach other people how to manifest their wealth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's no actual, like, financial skills in it. And I think there's a lot of Girlosphere shit. Going on that hasn't gotten clumped into this label. Cause I guess Lean in took that adventure for us already. But, like, the same thing is happening to girls with a different set of rules and constructs. And same thing with trad wives. Like, it's just. Here are five things you could live under capitalism and try and make a buck off of. Go make it a movement. And it's happening to, I think, all genders.

[B]

I think the interesting documentary would be, like, to your point about, I agree with you that Louis really didn't do much with this. Ladies, if you have any documentation, it would be really interesting to see the other side of this. Like, she says, myron's girlfriend says, he's not like this at home. Show me. Like, what does that actually look like? What does he act like? Where is there daylight between what he's showing on. On tape and where. Who he actually is? And I think when you can show daylight between the grifter and their actual Persona, that's where it's really interesting. And I think he. I agree.

[A]

And also, I would be like, how do you get a security detail?

[B]

I know.

[A]

Like, that is so dangerous because they have this whole little army that would turn against a woman. And also, I don't know if I need to see that. Becca. I think it's clear.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

I think it's clear. They're, like, losers. It's clear Myron was sad that his girlfriend broke up with him.

[C]

And him trying to, like, get power back in that moment to be like. And go clean the room. Like, he's pathetic. He was a pathetic character.

[A]

And you could tell she was like, oh, he's playing his character. And, like, you could tell it wasn't real. Which, again, to say, take a theater class.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, my God. Manosphere boys, I'm really gonna need you to get some arts education if you are gonna continue to pull off these characters. I'd like some better character development. All things we can teach you over in the girls sphere.

[B]

Yeah. No backstory at all with these guys.

[A]

Yeah. My God. Okay, Robbie, any final thoughts as the man on this Manosphere episode as we. As we sign off?

[C]

You know, I think it's. If you're a fan of this podcast and you want to learn how to be more of a man, I offer courses for that. I can teach you. It's $600 a week. No, it's. You know, I think the good news is that, like, I don't know anyone who takes this stuff seriously and respects it. Like, the unfortunate thing is this is corrupting, like, kids. But, you know, at any point in time, there's some weird shit corrupting kids that most of them grow out of as they become more adult, you know, as they grow up and get smarter. Who knows the dumb shit I was into? You know, I was into, like, Eminem when I was 13 to 15, and that wasn't like this. But, like, certainly the messaging wasn't inspirational.

[A]

And you know what, Robbie? So is it.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

I thought he was so smart and he worked so hard, and it took me a while before I was like, wait, is this song about murdering women?

[C]

Totally. But the alarm bells for me on this go off just from the fact that, like, all of this is based on Vice, and that's almost all that's left in the economy of anything. They're sponsored by online gambling, by pornography, by, you know, fake money, and even that stuff is pervasive in everything now. CNN is brought to you by Kalshi and Polymarket and these, like, betting things. It's just, like, a bummer to watch us in this very late capitalism where the only thing left is scams and vice.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, well said. And also, when the manosphere makes its way out into other genres, like Love is Blind, which I just made this point on a previous episode, but I'll tie it back again. Alex, did you watch the season of Love is Blind? Robbie?

[C]

We watched some of it. The Ohio season.

[A]

There was this guy, Alex, who was the talking points. He was Justin Waller. Like, everything was a talking point. And he got matched up with a blonde MAGA lady. And she was like, you're a dick. And it's like, if Manosphere is going to work anywhere, it's supposed to be with her. And he just couldn't get any leverage. He couldn't. The only places you succeed in the grift is where remains. It's not a grift that can move out into the real world, because otherwise it just looks ridiculous. Becca, any last thoughts as a woman with a male co host?

[B]

Yeah, I do. I feel like I can speak to this. No, I'm curious to see what will happen in, like, eight to 10 years when manosphere becomes Cheugy. And then, like, do we go back to, like, an indie intellectual? Like, you know, handlebar, mustache, twee? Because these things only last so long. Now we're seeing Sheryl Sandberg. Like, what she's doing is very cheugy. And it's like, where does this go? Yeah, I'll be curious to see what happens.

[C]

I'M gonna get ahead of it. This is great. I'm gonna be the first trad husband I'm starting right now.

[A]

Get a little twee mustache.

[C]

Yeah, get a tweet mustache.

[A]

I think that's great. Okay. I adore you both. I adore your podcast. Will you just plug some. A recent episode you did? Because you cover so many great stories. What's one people should start?

[B]

Well, we just did one on Amway we talked about in the same episode. Amway, Amanda Francis and the Salem witch trials. Those are all connected. And. Yeah, and everything is an mlm and everything is a pyramid scheme. It also goes all the way back to Reagan, so that's one that was pretty fun. But Robbie just joined us. You know, we started with Robbie last week with a great episode about Larry Ellison. That's a very troubled man. If you're in the mood for more troubled men, although you won't be for want of that if you're listening to this podcast. Yeah, those are two that I'd. I'd point out those sound phenomenal.

[A]

I haven't listened to the Amway one yet, and I cannot wait. That feels made for me. Robbie, I absolutely adore you. I also forgot to tell people that Robbie and I wrote together on both Jon Stewart shows. And so that's also, like, how we met each other. And so I just love discussing with both of you. I love that you both are on my favorite podcast, Corporate Gossip, now. And everyone go listen to corporate gossip. You can get it anywhere. You get podcasts and you want to plug a social handle. Are you guys doing some hot Instagram? Just like pressing iron on the beach.

[B]

We can use some YouTube followers, if you guys don't mind.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

All right.

[B]

YouTube on there.

[C]

I want to demanosphere my Instagram so you can follow me there, too.

[A]

Great. Help Robbie get free. Thank you both so much for coming on.

[B]

Thanks, Chelsea.

[A]

A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Dominique Banas. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and Quince. We will link those incredible brands in the show notes, so go check them out. Everything is always linked in the show notes on Apple. There's also transcripts, and if you ever have questions, go to the Patreon chat lounge and I will see you there.

[C]

With the American Express platinum card, you can access over $3,500 in annual value with benefits and eligible purchases across travel, entertainment, and more. There's nothing like Platinum. Learn [e-mail] Explore Platinum enrollment requirements, monthly and other limits in terms of Apply.