Virginia Giuffre’s Memoir Nobody’s Girl (with Alexandra Corti)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast

Episode: Virginia Giuffre’s Memoir Nobody’s Girl (with Alexandra Corti)
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Alexandra Corti
Date: March 3, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This emotionally intense episode of Glamorous Trash features a discussion of Nobody’s Girl, the posthumously published memoir of Virginia Giuffre—one of the most prominent survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal trafficking networks. Host Chelsea Devantez and guest Alexandra (Alex) Corti, both survivors of abuse and old friends, provide deeply personal and nuanced perspectives on Giuffre's harrowing story, reflecting on societal complicity, survivor credibility, and the endless cycle of abuse.

Trigger Warnings: Content discussed includes sexual abuse, incest, suicide, trafficking of minors, eating disorders, and more. Listener discretion is strongly advised.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Framing, Context, and Personal Ties

[00:00–06:27]

• Chelsea’s Hesitation & Personal Context: Initially hesitant to cover Giuffre’s memoir due to the emotional toll, Chelsea was prompted by Alex’s encouragement. Chelsea’s own memoir had ties to Alex, underscoring their shared background as teen survivors of violence.
• Guest Introduction: Alex—an old friend—shares her global adventures and background, highlighting how trauma shapes survivor perspectives.

2. The First Horror: Virginia’s Death and the Book's Structure

[06:28–10:32]

• Virginia died by suicide before publication; her last wish was for the memoir to be released.
• The co-author’s note about her death appears at the start of the book but Chelsea believes it belongs at the end for greater impact and understanding.

3. Giuffre’s Childhood: The Systemic Abuse Pipeline

[10:32–14:19]

• Layered Trauma: Virginia faced repeated abuse before Epstein: incest, rape by father's friend, and trafficking via a fake modeling agency, compounded by her mother’s disbelief.
• Chelsea observes, “She was trafficked and abused many times before she was 15 years old…this is not a rarity. It's an equation.” ([12:10])
• Patterns: Survivors’ vulnerability is manufactured by layered abuse, poverty, and cultural neglect.

Alex: “These traffickers like Epstein…they're targeting a specific vulnerability. They are looking for that, oh, this girl has been abused just enough to where she's not going to fight it…." ([12:51])

4. Mar-a-Lago, Epstein & Ghislaine: Recruitment and Indoctrination

[14:19–18:16]

• Path to Trafficking: Giuffre is set up for work at Mar-a-Lago by her abusive father; Ghislaine Maxwell identifies her as a victim.
• The Modus Operandi: Ghislaine promises a route to professional massage work; Virginia is lured to Epstein’s “pink house,” subjected to abuse, manipulated through threats (including against her brother), and drawn into the cycle by desperate need.

5. The Web of Power: Complicity, Academics, and Culture

[24:41–32:01]

• Ghislaine’s Dual Role: Both abuser and enabler, making “it can't be bad—a woman is with him” a justification for victims and bystanders.
• ‘Apex Predators’: Victims are groomed to accept any affection or attention as currency.

Alex: “She's literally using being a woman to abuse other women.” ([24:41])

• Recruitment Nuance: Many victims went on to recruit others—painful, but a product of manipulation.
• Epstein’s Philanthropy Facade: His obsession with intellectualism and academia masks abuse, attracts academics into his orbit for sex trafficking and blackmail.

Chelsea: “He’s wearing a Harvard sweatshirt constantly. You didn’t go to Harvard… Like, who did you send to get you some Harvard merch?” ([30:06])

6. The Circle of Wealth and Infamy

[32:01–39:03]

• The guest/host joke about disgusting “charismatic” men and patriarchal confidence.
• Explores Epstein’s power networking—politicians, royalty, business moguls, academics.
• Specific mention: Prince Andrew, Leslie Wexner (Victoria’s Secret), Bill Clinton, Woody Allen, Kevin Spacey, and others repeatedly appear in testimony and flight logs.

7. Victim Blaming, Credibility, and Constant Gaslighting

[39:03–47:33]

• Documented evidence (physical photos, flight logs) is consistently met with skepticism or outright denial.
• Survivors endure relentless challenges to credibility for minutiae: settlements, inconsistencies, or even language.
• Money becomes the only available restitution; Virginia is condemned as a “money grabber” for accepting it.

8. The Psychological Toll: Life After Escape

[47:33–56:28]

• Virginia escapes during massage school in Thailand—enabled by “geographical distance.”
• She marries Robbie, an Australian, within ten days; the marriage has complex dynamics—Robbie is initially savior, but “had a temper” and eventually became abusive.
• Early motherhood and health consequences compound her trauma.

9. The System Still Fails: Law Enforcement, Press, and Societal Complicity

[56:28–63:10]

• Contacted by Maxwell again after escaping, threatened into silence, but later speaks out to press and authorities.
• Major news outlets killed stories (e.g., Vanity Fair) or twisted her narrative.
• The justice system—especially through figures like Alex Acosta—repeatedly let Epstein off lightly despite overwhelming evidence.
• Commentary on QAnon and the ironic real existence of elite abuse rings.

10. The Final Years: Activism, Health Decline, and Hiding Abuse

[66:13–76:44]

• Virginia endures severe health struggles, ongoing emotional trauma, and death threats.
• She makes public statements asserting she is not suicidal, fearing for her safety.
• Details emerge posthumously in a co-author's note: her marriage to Robbie was abusive, with multiple documented assaults and eventual estrangement from her children.
• Virginia hid this abuse in her book, fearing further damage to her credibility as a survivor.

Chelsea: “…it’s a book about speaking out against abuse that no one has believed…and someone is like, please believe me…while spending the entire book hiding and protecting a different abuse.” ([70:53])

11. Memoir’s Legacy and Reflections on Survivorship

[77:44–80:30]

• Host and guest reflect on the repeated undermining of survivor credibility, how overwhelming evidence is still disregarded, and how the cycle of disbelief persists.
• The memoir is not “entertaining,” but necessary, elevating, and transformative.
• The conversation is a rallying cry for the sharing of survivor stories as a political and healing act.

Chelsea: “The most powerful thing a woman can do is to share her own story because it impacts so many others…” ([80:30])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Cycle of Abuse and Victimhood:

  • Chelsea ([12:10]): “…it's not a rarity. It's an equation. This is how it happens.”
  • Alex ([12:51]): “…they're targeting a specific vulnerability. They are looking for that, oh, this girl has been abused just enough to where she's not going to fight…"

• On Ghislaine Maxwell’s Role:

  • Alex ([24:41]): “She's literally using being a woman to abuse other women.”
  • Chelsea ([26:26]): “It was my fear of disappointing Epstein, not the prospect of doubling my money, that really drove me to take on this new task. So I began to do the worst thing I've ever done in my life. I drafted other girls into Epstein's sickening world…”

• On Survivor Credibility:

  • Chelsea ([77:44]): “…millions and millions…of emails exist about what happened. Dozens…of hundreds of victims exist…we would still argue her credibility and still push her down.”

• On Societal Complicity/Patriarchy:

  • Chelsea ([30:06]): “He's wearing a Harvard sweatshirt constantly. You didn’t go to Harvard… Like, who did you send to get you some Harvard merch?”

• On Healing and Memoir:

  • Chelsea ([80:30]): “The most powerful thing a woman can do is to share her own story because it impacts so many others…”

---

Important Timestamps

• [00:00–05:27]: Host and guest introductions; personal context for the conversation; trigger warnings.
• [06:28–10:32]: Virginia’s death, posthumous publication, and the confusing placement of the co-author’s note.
• [10:32–18:03]: Virginia's childhood; patterns of systemic abuse and early trafficking; being groomed for Epstein.
• [24:41–32:01]: Discussion of Ghislaine Maxwell's abuse, academic and political connections (eugenics, Harvard obsessions).
• [45:21–47:33]: The infamous photo with Prince Andrew and the public denial/retaliation she endured.
• [50:51–54:37]: Virginia’s escape, her relationship with Robbie, and the complexities/patterns of ongoing abuse.
• [56:28–63:48]: Failures by authorities, suppression of stories in the media, personal health crises, and ongoing threats.
• [66:13–76:44]: The co-author’s note on domestic abuse in Virginia’s later life and credibility implications.
• [77:44–80:30]: Reflections on memoir, survivorship, and the importance of speaking out.

---

Conclusion & Takeaways

This episode stands as both a detailed book club discussion and a survivor-to-survivor exchange, offering listeners an unvarnished look at systemic failures, the infinite loops of victim-blaming, and the ongoing necessity for victims to speak out. Nobody’s Girl is brutal and necessary reading—not entertainment, but urgent testimony. Chelsea and Alex’s reflections root the story in lived experience, making the stakes heartbreakingly tangible for all listeners.

Final Words from the Book:

“Memoir is the art of shining a light behind you, picking at the stitches of your life to see how it was made. That's what I've tried to do, to examine my life in hopes of destigmatizing victims' experiences. Because only by speaking out can we move ourselves and others to act.” (Chelsea reading a favorite passage)

---

Transcript

[A]

Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians.

[B]

These are things people say about drivers

[A]

who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea Devontes. I am a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And Today is Dark, definitely one of the more or perhaps the most difficult memoir we will have ever covered. Today we are book clubbing Nobody's Girl, a memoir by Virginia Giuffre. Now, Virginia was one of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's victims of sexual abuse and human trafficking, and her name is possibly cited the most in every case that's ever been able to prosecute them for their crimes. And Virginia's bravery, her willingness to retell these horrific stories over and over and over again, and this photo she had of her and the former Prince Andrew as evidence have all worked to bring some justice to all the people who supported and protected Jeffrey and Ghislaine, and also to prosecute both of them. Now, this memoir was published in October 2025 and it was one of Virginia's last wishes before her death that it be published no matter what. This is an extremely difficult book to read, not only for the reasons you might expect, but for one reason that really took me by surprise and added some complicated layers which we will discuss later in the episode. I can't issue enough trigger warnings for this episode, so while I'm going to do my best to navigate this information in the best way possible, there is extreme sexual abuse, incest, suicide, sexual abuse, abusive minors, eating disorders, and much more. So pleasure. Please take care of yourself while witnessing this story. Now, my guest today needs a bit of context because I think it's going to be important to the episode. I was not going to cover this book because to be honest, I really, I just wasn't sure I could handle it emotionally. And what changed my mind was our guest who reached out to cover it with me. Now, as some of you may know, I wrote a memoir of my own in 2024 where I discussed some of the domestic viol that I lived through When I was very young. And then the publisher's lawyers forced me to delete it. And instead of deleting it, I chose instead to redact just enough of that chapter in those chapters so that they couldn't tell me no. And instead of telling my story, I was hoping to tell the story of what happens to victims when they speak out. Especially since, you know, I had everything I had. I was court documented, I had witnesses, I had proof, I had money for lawyers. I had a book deal, and I was still silenced. So I was trying to show how our system is set up to silence victims. Now, every chapter in my book was titled another woman's name. A woman who played a huge role in my life. And before I had to redact the first chapter about the domestic violence and change the title, the woman's name of that chapter was Alex. And Alex is our guest today. Hi, Alex. Hi. Just gonna give them some more context for us. Alex and I, hot plug, we both dropped out of high school together and that, you know, Alex stood by me, and we. That's what we had to go through. And when you go through something that traumatic so young, it really destroys your brain. Alex and I went our separate ways for a long time, mostly because I couldn't face anyone who would remind me of what we had lived through. And we later connected. We both found ways to graduate, we both went to college, and we both dealt with the repercussions, I think, very differently. So I think we're gonna bring two really. I don't know what the word is, but I like. I think we're gonna bring two very different and necessary perspectives to this book, but we are both bringing our own lived experience, which has a similarity to Virginia's, which, you know, being teenage girls who live through something you shouldn't have. Now, Alex and I most likely are also going to find ways to make jokes in this episode. We've always bonded over our humor. It's how we survived what we went through. It's how we survive anything. It's how I survive on this podcast, when I cover something really diffic it, what's like, what allows my brain to stay in it for the duration. And so if you do not want to hear any jokes and humor as you take in this information, I urge you not to listen to this episode. It might not be the one for you, but this is the way we survive. Now, Alex, last time you and I spoke, you were working in Antarctica, and we did the Jenna Jameson episode together. Please tell us where you've Been since. How many countries have you visited? Where are you in the world now?

[B]

Where have I been since? Well, I since done like three seasons in Antarctica. One was a full winter, so mostly in the dark. I have graduated to other field stations all over the world that I prefer on boats with National Geographic and then also work for the Nature Conservancy. I'm at an airport hotel right now, about to head to Hawaii tomorrow.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So, yeah, about the easiest to track down and get a hold of.

[A]

But I know you're like, want to record a podcast? I'll be with Internet for 24 hours one day of the month?

[B]

Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, I usually do like six months of travel a year and then three to six month contracts all over. But, yeah, I think last time I did like six months just backpacking across Africa. And then the last time I did Asia, but we did like a month driving a rickshaw across India, which was disastrous, but also amazing. Okay. Adventure.

[A]

Okay. So, Alex, why was this the book you reached out to me with, and what was your overall feeling about this memoir?

[B]

I mean, I read this memoir. I listened to it first, you know, and if you read it, you see immediately that it's not just Epstein, it's everyone. Like, this is against women. Like, it's her father, it's her father's friend, it's the people in the street, it's the guys that are like, oh, yeah, you know, you're pretty here, you want a new daddy. It's. And then you're just being sold to other men. It's just like a cycle. Like the whole world is against women is what it feels like. It's like, how is. How has nothing changed? Like, and how has nothing seemed to be changing?

[A]

All right, so let's get in because as Alex said, it is a tonnage. I'm going to navigate some things top level just so we can get through it all. But to begin with, I would say the first horrific part of reading this memoir is that Virginia died by suicide before it came out. And her last wish, which she put into writing, was to make sure this book was published. There is an additional note at the beginning of the book from her co author speaking to this and what occurred. And I feel so strongly that this should have been at the end of the book. It also should have said more things. And so I'm going to give the episode that way that I think that's how it should be ingested. And so we're going to talk about the additional note at the end of the book because that's where I think its meaning is best understood. Because I read the note, read the book, then went back and reread the note. And so I want to begin this episode talking about some things that are in the introduction. And I'm just going to read a couple of quotes I know about monsters. As a child, I suffered nearly every kind of abuse. Incest, parental neglect, severe corporal punishment, molestation, rape. As a teen, I had been trafficked sexually by another pedophile even before I met Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. But these two doubled down on my suffering. In my years with them, they lent me out to scores of wealthy powerful people. I was habitually used and humiliated and in some instances choked, beaten and bloodied. I believed that I might die a sex slave. Then, just after my 19th birthday, I met someone who seemed to give a damn about me. I took a chance and in 2002 I escaped. As I write this, I've enjoyed 22 years of freedom. That period has not always been easy, but I'm beyond grateful for it. My life since 2002 has been marked by several turning points. And then she ends the introduction saying this, Once I was silent, but now I have found my voice. This book is result of that metamorphosis because my husband is right about me. I am a warrior, a warrior with a story to tell. And anytime we talk about her husband, I just want you to market and take it in. His name is Robbie and he'll be a big part of this book. So I think what really got me is that she was trafficked and abused many times before she was 15 years old. Like she said, before the Epstein's ever found her, she was trafficked by a man named Ron Eppinger, who also had a similar scam with saying he had like a fake modeling agency and I'll help you achieve your dreams. There was a man she hitchhiked a ride with who raped her. Her father and her father's friend both raped and abused her as a child. And her mom didn't believe her, which was another trauma. And so I'm just going to read page 32. She said, One night, Mom, dad and I were out on our porch with Forrest, Sheila and Sheila's mom. I've corresponded with Sheila about this recently and she remembers this too. We think our little brothers were playing somewhere inside the house when our parents, who were drinking beer as usual, began joking around about how naughty Sheila and I were. Either my dad or Forrest then suggested that they trade us for a Night, I recall Forrest glancing at my father and saying something about a backward sleepover. Jenna can come sleep at our house. Jenna is Virginia's nickname. And Sheila can sleep here. And so there's so much. How did those initial parts of her childhood and everything she was going through before she is even recruited at Mar A Lago, how did that hit for you?

[B]

I guess it's just really hard to comprehend for the mother. Like, how do you not believe your daughter when you know, when she's saying this? Like, how or how do you not see it? I mean, but I guess that's really easy for me to say. Like, how do you just not see that in your daughter? See that something's wrong or see that in your husband? But then, like, yeah, later, when, you know, when she screams it and announces it at, like, the family picnic, and then they still don't believe her then, and they're like, send her away, I guess. Is the mother, like, somehow abused, too, and that she was too scared to stand up for her daughter? Like, feeling threatened or scared? I mean, I just, like, I don't see any other way how you can do that. Just defend. Defend that man. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think what struck me the most in this section is one she's witnessing early. How to protect a man, how to protect an abuser. And that that's what you should do. So even though she herself is the victim, calling out, she's watching her mom, her protector, protect him, and learning that, like, that's something you should do, which she's going to learn how to do herself. I think she's also looking at an early. It's like a normalization of something so horrible so that when another woman who is a protector of a monster, Ghislaine and Jeffrey and Cullet, it's a. It's a familiar modeling. The other thing that really hit me, and it's something I know I've struggled a lot with myself, was like, how could you go through so much trauma? How could there be so many things? This is before Epstein scenes even in her life. And I thought about it with myself and before what we went through, I'd already had enough, okay? Like, I was already gonna be fucked up. I was just like, this is so crazy. And I used to really think something was, like, wrong with me or, like, how did this rarity occur? And reading Virginia's book, it just never has hit me so hard, is that it is not a rarity. It's an equation. This is how it happens. One plus one equals a child. That has had things normalized for themselves that they cannot see red flags until it's far too late. Who are taught not to trust themselves. There's so many things that happen because they all lead to each other. Versus, like, what I used to think is just, like, how'd I get so unlucky?

[B]

Well, no, but exactly. But on the other end, like, you know, these traffickers like Epstein, particularly, like, they're targeting a specific vulnerability. They are looking for that, oh, this. This girl has been abused just enough to where she's not going to fight it or just enough to where she's not innocent enough.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, target that vulnerability and the red flags that that child has seen and has taught to, like, completely ignore or.

[A]

Yeah. Or this child is abused enough that they need $200. Or that if this child reports that, they won't be believed because this is, quote, a bad child. Or this child had. Has had other stuff happen to them. They're not trustworthy. Virginia wrote this. So many young women, myself included, have been criticized for returning to Epstein's lair even after we knew what he wanted from us. How can you complain about being abused, some have asked, when you so easily could have stayed away? If you didn't like feeling dirty, you simply could have never gone back. But that stance wrongly discounts what many of us had been through before we encountered Epstein, as well as how good he was at spotting girls whose wounds made them vulnerable to him. And she said several of us had been molested or raped as children. Many of us were poor, even homeless. And in another interview in the documentary, she said, I just thought this was life. I didn't see anything strange. Her whole life had been abuse. And so she was like, one more day. And the abuse that came from Epstein and Ghislaine had a couple, quote, upsides, like money or sometimes they kind to her. And so it was better abuse than the abuse she'd gone through.

[B]

Another thing is, like, what Epstein said, like, once told her that, like, well, I'm providing something for all these women, whether it be money, whether it be, like, a way to their career, or whether it be them marry one of my rich friends. And it's like, wow, okay. I mean, well, obviously, like, his arrogance aside. But, yeah, complex. Like, I mean, okay, I guess those are the only three things that she would ever want in life.

[A]

Yeah, it was just like, I'll help you with your career. I'll lead you to safety, or I'll give you a good marriage. And so also, like, all right, you just can't discount God watching the documentary too. There's just so many 14 year old girls and everyone says, well, why did you go back when you knew her? Why did you help recruit? And I'm just like, don't you remember being 14? Like, don't you remember how malleable your brain was? Like, don't you remember how culture could teach you something horrific and you would take it on? Or like, yeah. And I don't mean like you specifically. I mean the world. The world was like Victoria's Secrets, a cool brand and we should all wear these thongs. Like, what are you talking about? So this is how Virginia is pulled into this trap. So what happens is that after she is molested at home and deals with a lot, she is put into one of those, I'm just gonna call it teenage abuse centers, pretending to be a school to rehab children. Like we are discovering. So many teenagers were sent to Paris. Help me in one of them, whether they are wilderness camps or tough love on Maury. But it's like, we will basically abuse your child into acting right. Which we all know created far worse situations, including abuse inside the institution. And so Virginia starts running away. When she runs away is when she gets trafficked for the first time, is when she is raped by the hitchhiker because she's trying to get a way out. And what is so wild to me is that her mom and her dad keep putting her back in. And finally she breaks out and calls her dad again, the person who was abused her as a child and is like, please come get me. He brings her back home. And then her dad says, let me try and help you. I work at Mar a Lago. Maybe I can get you a job as an admin at the spa. Now what did her dad do at Mar a Lago? Was he. He was a maintenance manager.

[B]

Yeah, we got her nine dollar an hour. Spa attendant. Yes, was how she referred to herself.

[A]

So she is in the spa, she's only been working there a few weeks and she is reading a book on body anatomy because she has discovered and decided that maybe the career she'll choose is to become a professional masseuse. Because she's in the spa, she's seen masseuses, and she's like, okay, maybe this could be a way out for me to have a better life. Elaine spots her walking in one day and has the driver pull over. And she chases after her and tells her she knows a great man who can make her dreams come true. She could become a professional masseuse. And she should come over and give him a massage, and he can vet her ability to become a professional masseuse, and he can make her dreams happen. And she says, I need a way out in life. That sounds great. And her dad drops her off. Her dad drops her off at the infamous pink house that Epstein lived in in Palm Beach.

[B]

In the book, they don't portray it as like, oh, he dropped her off. I think it is more of like, oh, I have. I don't think she was like, hey, I'm going to this guy's mansion. I mean, who knows if her dad knew Epstein or any of the things.

[A]

Well, later in the book, she talks about how someone came forward with an account that Epstein had paid her dad off.

[B]

Yeah, but I don't know that if he had paid her off, it might have been paid her off way in the future.

[A]

Right, Right. It's unclear. So this part is where it gets dark, and I'm not going to go into extreme details, but she goes upstairs where Jeffrey is lying naked on a massage table. And this, if you've watched a documentary and read other things, is how so many women were indoctrinated into this abuse. It's this exact same routine. It just so happens that Virginia actually wanted to become a massage therapist, but this happened to all of the girls. Ghislaine joins, and so she's got another woman present and believes she is doing a real massage. And Ghislaine starts to teach her, and red flags like, why is this man fully naked? Things like that. Again, she's moving past them because this type of behavior has been normalized. And what happened in many occasions, and this one is that he turns over and then demands her to take her clothes off and then demands sex. Vibrators are used. Ghislaine is a part of it. And afterwards, she is paid $200 and told to come back and that she'll get $200 each time. Many of the women are then also told, if you don't want to come back, then ring a friend and we will give you $200. Or recruit women. And it's. It's just $200 every time for everything. And again, they have targeted people who are in such desp. Desperate need of money that this is a way to bring them into sex slavery. To. To give them something that they cannot survive without. And so she goes back, obviously, and she's like, well, this maybe is a job, and even if I have to do this was just something I've experienced already in my life. He has promised to send me to massage school. So this is an abuse that for her and the way he was manipulating her was this is an abuse that will offer you something and so I'm going to abuse you, but at least you'll get something out of it. And this is how he manipulated people. He then on the second time showed her a picture he had taken of her little brother at school and was like, if you tell anyone, I will hurt and hunt your brother. And so from then on, she's tied to him. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. I have been wearing my three pairs of pants from Quince constantly on the rake. I've got black, navy and brown. I'm tall so I love that I could get a long inseam. They also have short inseams available. Quince's goods are quality first. They make high quality wardrobe staples using premium fabrics like 100% European linen, 100% silk and organic cotton poplin. I have quince duvet covers. I have three different quince blankets have quints pillows. I love quints. You can get so many quality pieces all at once and my mom is a huge fan. I have been getting her high quality cashmere but on a budget every year for her birthday. Quint's clothing is consistently rated 4.5 to 5 stars by thousands of customers. Real people wearing these pieces every day and actually loving them. Myself included. Stop waiting to build the wardrobe you actually want. Go to quint.com glamorous for free shipping and 365 day return. That's a full year to wear it and love it. And you will now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Quince Q U I n c e.com glamorous for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com glamorous I have not seen the sun a lot lately. Not great. I have been working inside film studios and podcast studios kind of every second of the day for a month. So myself skin has been suffering except Ritual Hyra's skin supplement has been saving me. It is a clinically proven way to support skin hydration with science backed benefits like reducing wrinkles and improving skin smoothness. It is very important to me that products like this contain high quality clean ingredients and all of Ritual's products are just that. All of their products are vegan, GMO free and tested for heavy metals and common allergens. Your skin always starts below the surface and Rituals hysera features clinically studied key ingredients to help support moisturized skin that glows. In a clinical study, Hysera led to a 2.9 increase in facial skin smoothness within 90 days as compared to a placebo. And subjects also reported an improvement in skin elasticity, glow and radiance in 90 days. Start Hysera to support your glow without compromising on clean science. For a limited time, save 25% on your first month at ritual.com glamorous that's ritual.com glamorous for 25% off your first month. Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. I'm gonna read page 86 and 87. Maxwell was proud of her friendships with famous people, especially men. She loved to talk about how easily she could get former President Bill Clinton on the phone. She and Epstein had visited the White House together when Clinton was in office. Maxwell also enjoyed repeating that once at some random event, she'd taken the actor George Clooney into a bathroom and given him a blowjob. Whether that was true or not, we'd never know. And she said Epstein, too, described Maxwell as his best friend, valued her knack for connecting him to powerful people. Maxwell, in turn, appreciated that Epstein had the resources to fund the lavish life she thought she deserved and had trouble affording after her father's death. And she said, Ghislaine said she was never bothered with Epstein's desire to have sex with so many others. Quote, she said it was a relief. Epstein's sexual appetite was so relentless, she said, that no one person could satisfy him. Her lack of jealousy seemed odd but genuine. Over time, I would come to see Epstein and Maxwell less as boyfriend and girlfriend and more as two halves of a wicked hole. I mean, Maxwell's presence in all of this is. She is both the enabler and just as bad of an abuser. But it's with her by Jeffrey's side that so much of this is allowed to happen and go so so far because Ghislaine is signing off and being that idea of like, well, it can't be bad because a woman's with him. A woman is standing by him.

[B]

Yeah. She's literally using being a woman to abuse other women. It's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But even.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There when she refers to. She's like my father Forest, like any of my abusers. Anything. Like, as soon as I saw, like, Ghislaine and Epstein, I was like, these are apex predators. You know, recognizing that, like, this. This isn't a regular rapist or.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, they're in control. Yeah.

[A]

And. And there's just hundreds of victims. Like, the manipulation is just so deep. Basically, Virginia had been taught to tamp down who she was and to never speak out and to accept anything or else suffer being sent away, being sent to a worse thing or something worse happening to her, that she was really detached from herself. And so she said, unlike some of Epstein's other repeat victims who got jealous or tried to assert a relationship with him, which, again, I think is like being filtered through her teenage self, because I'm not sure that's exactly all that that was. But however, she said I was detached and never made demands. Long before I met Epstein, I'd been trained to accept whatever affection, if any, I could get. Epstein liked that. And so she becomes one of his top girls. He begins having her dress him in the morning, like, put his shoes he's on, tuck him in at night. His tucking in routine was an hour long.

[B]

Oh, my God, this part is disgusting.

[A]

It's like, like he's a baby. And she's like, rubbing his forehead and. And like massaging his feet and like, yeah, it's disgusting.

[B]

And then that's like Stockholm syndrome. Like, I mean, like this the way that, like, you just like, can manipulate someone. Like, oh my God, gross.

[A]

It's just so brutal. And then he gets her to start recruiting for him. And she said it was my fear of disappointing Epstein, not the prospect of doubling my money, that really drove me to take on this new task. So I began to do the worst thing I've ever done in my life. I drafted other girls into Epstein's sickening world. I knew it was wrong, but I rationalized my own behavior by telling myself that at least I leveled with the other girls I approached. Unlike Kellen, who is another one of Epstein's victims, but also a perpetrator whose pitch made Epstein seem like a lucrative and fun man. Da da da da da. I issued warnings letting each woman know what was going to happen when they got up to that room. The fact that I issued warnings doesn't diminish the ugly truth. When I targeted girls who were hungry or poor, I knew I was exploiting their vulnerabilities. I stoop so low that I even brought Epstein a few friends of mine to abuse again.

[B]

Yeah, like, what is your 15 year old girl perspective of that? Like, oh, I told him what was going on. I told him they can make $200.

[A]

Like, yeah, I mean, this one is such a hard thing to sit with because they are victims. And then they perpetrate the crime that was taught to them. And at the exact same time, like, on the next page, she talks about it being Epstein's birthday and thinking to herself, like, I need to use some of this money to buy him something nice. So she's truly thinking of buying her abuser a watch. Until Ghislaine is like, ugh, gross. You think he wants a watch from your poor ass? Like, he doesn't need anything from you. But you just have to think into the psyche of someone who has decided this is her protector, her way out, and the best form of abuse she could have in her life. Therefore, she has to appease him. And so it all comes back to him and Ghislaine. They are underage young girls, and then knowing that they turn around and perpetrate the crime is so painful. And you have to look at what happened to these kids in the context of what created this chain of decisions. And I think this goes back to what you were saying, where it's like, this is bred into the culture. It's everywhere. There's so many people helping this happen that I just really look at the recruitment that happened from these women with a lot of nuance, even though it's horrific.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So she gets into a lot of the people she was trafficked to and the people in Epstein's life, and these were things that I didn't. I guess, I hadn't locked in on. She said he was obsessed with academics and science, and he was also using philanthropy as a shield. And so she was trafficked to many academics and many scientists. And also a stereotype that she lives in this book is these men having such a hard time getting sex themselves. That Jeff Steen. That Jeff Steen. Wow. That.

[B]

I was like, I like that, actually.

[A]

That Jeffrey would then be like, give me your knowledge. Let me invest in your thing, and I will provide you this thing that you seem to have trouble with, and that these men, these supposedly brilliant scientists, then engaged in sex trafficking, pedophilic crimes, and abuse.

[B]

She gets into it later where he just has blackmail against everyone, you know, And I think he's just finding these powerful men, whether powerful men are in academia as well, and that just happens to be, like, who they are in academia.

[A]

But.

[B]

And they're like, maybe they're nerdy or maybe they don't get all the girls in general. And he's like, oh, I can provide you this service. But I think he just, as a. As a powerful man, just needed to be surrounded by, you know, power everywhere, anywhere, whether it's in, you know, politics and government, academia and just wealth in general. Victoria's Secret, whatever.

[A]

Yes. But wasn't his fascination with academics so odd, though? Because when you're saying, like, wealth and power, like, all of that tracks. But it really hit me that, like, this man, in so many photographs and in the documentaries, everything, this man's wearing a Harvard sweatshirt constantly. This didn't go to Harvard. You didn't go to Harvard, you idiot. Like, why? Who did you send to get you some Harvard merch? And then why is it so important to you to be friends with these academics and to invest in all these intelligence things? And I think something far darker is, like, when he's in meetings at Harvard and Steve Bannon is there, and they're talking about how to take a concept and feed it to a nation and let them never recover from it or how to spread eugenics on. That is where it's like, oh, this is beyond. Beyond, beyond anything you think it is. This man is trying to destroy the world.

[B]

Yeah, I know. And that's, like, kind of where all the conspiracy theories come in, where I'm like, I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist, but, like, holy, this web is so connected and gets so dark and it's, like, international and spans, like, all aspects of. Yeah. Academia, politics, like, money, wealth. Like, especially when you get to eugenics.

[A]

Oh, and also, I saw the. Oh, I hate this. I saw the eugenics thing coming from a mile away. So first off, stuff, by the way, the. This part is not a conspiracy theory in that there are photos of Jeffrey Epstein and Steve Bannon in these academic institutions studying those concepts that I just talked about. There's photos of that. Of them all in one room. The eugenics thing is so crazy because it's just like, why are you all into this? She gets to the point where she was like, Jeffrey was obsessed with his seed and making children and being a sperm donor. And I said, oh, course he was.

[B]

Yeah, like, Elon. Like the fucking doctor in Oklahoma donating all of his sperm. Like, it's just like, God fucking men in your seed. Like, stop, Stop. Also, like, no one wants it.

[A]

This is why, like, I have such a hard time with my origin story, too. I'm like, you folks who love to donate, you're like, why are you the worst people on earth? Like, this is. Sorry. I'll calm down. I'll calm down. I will remove my baggage. Not all. Okay, so d.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Also, I just want to say, like, there are two things that make you the biggest loser in the world to me. One wearing Ivy League sweatshirts from a school you didn't attend, you loser. As an adult. And it's like my daughters, or would you say. Or Ed Hardy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, honestly way. Forgive Ed Hardy. Like, you wear your Ed Hardy. You do you, baby. No, no, no, no. You're going to put on the sweatshirt of a prestigious institution that you are not connected to anyone who went there. That's the first thing. And the second thing that makes you the biggest walking red flag in life is a late in life interest in martial arts. If you are getting into martial arts past the age of 40, I am so fucking worried.

[B]

That is a good one.

[A]

I'm not talking about tai chi, okay? I'm not talking about granny. I'm saying, like, a man who's like, I want to get my blue belt and I'm going to class.

[B]

I'm turning 40. I'm getting a black belt. Yeah.

[A]

Like, specifically. And also, you know what? I'm also going to say this only applies to Caucasian men. Like, if you are white and you're like, I'm going to learn karate. Everyone else, it does not apply to you. I'm just like, list. This is part of your culture. Go for it. But if you are a white man getting into a dojo past 40, I'm calling the cops. Who will probably join your dojo and be like, we're all cool martial artists now. Okay, getting back to it. There are so many men of power that are clocked in this book alone, not to mention so many others. I'm gonna say Prince Andrew, even though the title has been taken from him, at least Leslie Wexner, who is behind the brand Victoria's Secret, whose fortune is much of what powered Epstein's crimes, where Epstein became the executor of this man's estate. Again, you're alive. You don't need an executor of your estate. It doesn't need to go to just some guy, you know? And they have spoken about, like, did they ever have a sexual relationship? Which they've denied. But for whatever reason, Leslie Wexner gave him a bun of money for a long time, and he used the idea that he was a scout for Victoria's Secret to also hold power over these women.

[B]

Well, I'm wondering if there is, like, some sort of blackmail there. I mean, I'm sure there is to an extent. When they're talking about this Epstein, like, I was watching the documentary the other day and the Netflix one, and how he, like, went through. And you Know, like, working for all these companies without a degree. Much less, like, a Harvard degree, but, like, without a degree. And we're just lying through everything to get all these jobs. I'm like, huh? Like, how? I mean, confidence, I guess. Being a white man, like, helps.

[A]

But I know one of the cookies out there is gonna know the answer to this. And I'm gonna need you to drop this in my comments or the Patreon so badly. But please, God, who has written the essay on why supposedly the most charismatic men on Earth are all disgusting, ugly losers? Yes. But I'm thinking of, like. Like, the cult leader of Nexium, the guy who did Fire Fest. Like, every time, they're like, this man could do anything. And they cut to footage of him, and he's like, hello, I know. Good birds.

[B]

And he's, like, in a Harvard sweatshirt.

[A]

What is a Harvard sweatshirt? All you need.

[B]

Yeah. What, you get that in a gift shop?

[A]

I just need someone's master thesis in this. And I know they'll just be, like, patriarchy. But even still, like, we've discovered, like, CEOs are often over six feet tall. Explain Epstein to me. Explain Keith Ranieri to me. These, like, little men who are like, I'm gonna. Yeah.

[B]

Like Steve Bannon. Like, oh, God.

[A]

Okay, so back into the story. I think something that I really appreciated in this book is that Virginia included lots of details that I know don't always make sense when you're thinking about cases like this, but it goes to show, again, like, all the nuance that goes into it. This, which is that she had boyfriends at the time. She would have boyfriends she would come home to who knew she was doing this job before she moved in with them into the house. She had an apartment that Jeffrey paid for because he thought it, like, someone would report how many times she was coming to his house if she was being watched by anyone else. So he would pay for an apartment. And she talks about how on her off days, she would take up to 8 Xanax a day just to get through her life. And again, she's still a teenager, so that much Xanax on your brain, which is still forming. And also, it's early addiction. It's early pushing through things like that. I can't fathom eight Xanax a day. I can't fathom that much. She didn't say how many milligrams. And even at the lowest, I'm like, I can't fathom eight.

[B]

No.

[A]

And I know this happens. It's a lot to Take in. So she writes of some specific instances, and, of course, this one is one I'm gonna read. She starts traveling with them. They start getting her a passport. And again, this is someone who's never had the privilege to travel. And so she sees, like, I'm being trafficked, and I have to go through abuse, but also, I get to be on a plane or I get to go somewhere. And she sees herself as very lucky, which shows you how bad things were for her. And she writes, you know, this one trip, Epstein and I went on his private jet to Los Angeles. On this leg of the trip, the cartoonist, animator, and simpsons creator Matthew Groening hitched a ride with us on Epstein's jet. I'm not sure that how the two had met. I just recall Epstein required me to massage Matthew's feet, which were calloused and sweaty and in terrible shape. I did as I was told, as usual, tempering my disgust with the knowledge that I'd now met the genius who'd invented the dysfunctional family Homer, Marge, Bart, Lisa, and Maggie Simpson that had helped me survive my own family. We touched down. Matthew kindly drew me two sketches that I asked him to sign for my little brother and my dad. I'd never had any sexual contact with him, but in due time, Epstein would force me to have sex with at least two other people in this larger circle that Matthew had come from. I think this is also so egregious to me that. So it's like I never had sexual contact with him. But this man was on a private jet where Jeffrey Epstein had a teenage child ready at the avail to massage your feet, who is so much a child, they're requesting autographs from you and who was like, well, at least meeting a great man. Yeah. And you're a part of it. You're a perpetrator. Like, all these people who are like, oh, I never had sexual content. I never had. It's like, how are you in that space allowing this to happen in any way at all, regardless if something sexual happened?

[B]

Oh, no. I mean, I feel the same way. And it's just. I think now, I mean, the way that we're looking at it, like, the amount of people that it's bringing down now or should be bringing down now, it's just the layers.

[A]

And I think that's also, again, like, when they are in Harvard, you know, studying how to pass an idea through, I think the idea of, like, flooding the zone and pushing the bar of normalcy so that you're not as shocked anymore, like, this Alone is shocking. But pushing what you think is shocking so that things like this are allowed to slide by. The consciousness, I think, is very purposeful. Deepak Chopra. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now, and we'll be right back. Things have been wild schedule wise over here, and I've been starting my day by rolling out of bed. And then the one thing I do before I leave the house is I slick them brows back. And then I use Thrive's brilliant eye brightener. I just kind of roll it all around my eyes. It's an eyeshadow, but it's a highlighter. And it's really been helping my daily look. I also love Thrive's mascara because it does not flake. It has a different quality to the texture of it than other mascaras. You'll notice it the moment you put it on. It stays on all day, and it is very lengthening. So I love it. I also love this company because with every purchase, they donate to causes that really make a difference, and domestic violence is one of them. With over 150 million in product and cash donations to 600 million plus giving partners, your purchase directly fuels real impact. And that is beauty with purpose. So I love the causes that they support, so I love supporting Thrive. Amplify your spring look with Thrive cosmetics. Go to thrivecosmetics.com glamorous for an exclusive offer of 20 off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics. C-A U S E M E T-I C S.com glamorous okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. Deepak Chopra. Okay, now he nodded. This book.

[B]

He's all. All up in his. I was like, huh?

[A]

Deepak Chopra. All over those files.

[B]

All over, yeah.

[A]

Writing things like bring your harem of women. I don't know if this is especially getting me because I read Oprah magazine at our library all the time. And he was one of the gurus. He was in books all over our house. You know, we are of new age people. Ye married jlo and Ben Affleck at what is now a haunted wedding for many reasons. He was the officiant, see?

[B]

But, like, he's one of the ones that I heard. And I was like, well, that's not surprising anymore. Like, Oprah's not surprising anymore. Now I like these people. I'm like, no, of course.

[A]

I gotta tell you, I felt thrilled having always hated this man. He's always given me the ick. And it's like, you. These gurus. These gurus engage with pedophiles And I, I think the other thing that always kills me is that by 2008, Jeffrey had already been convicted of crimes involving prostitution and minors. He had already been convicted. He had already gone to jail. Lots of people say, like, oh, I only had dinner with him, or there was no sexual contact, or this was for philanthropy. So you had a criminal who'd already gone to prison for sexual crimes against children. And, and you went to dinner with him. Bill Gates multiple times. Deepak Chopra emailing with him. I don't care if you think you can say I never participated in any of the sexual abuse. You did participate and you knew he was a pedophile, right?

[B]

No, And I have, like, notes on this summer as well. But then even he was claiming, like, after these. And again, I'm not. Not defending it. He's saying he was only convicted of soliciting.

[A]

He was convicted of soliciting a minor for prostitution. Right. It's like, so had sex with them. It's like, what do you like the word prostitution means, you little bitch.

[B]

Obviously you were. But like, yeah, but he was soliciting that. And he was still claiming later on, like, to Virginia, that that doesn't matter, that he went overboard in what, like, and how he paid for his crimes.

[A]

But also, like, yeah, that. That's a crazy person. That is a master manipulator saying crazy lies. Yeah.

[B]

And I mean, and then, yeah, the whole case got thrown out because of, like, a cost up.

[A]

So she talks about these flight laws logs, and not all the pilots who flew Epstein's plane have turned over the flight logs. Only some have participated. So there's many logs of flights she was on that can tell you the passenger list. But one of them. Here's the passengers. Okay. Bill Clinton, Woody Allen and Kevin Spacey. This is a vaudeville joke. Bill Clinton, Woody Allen and Kevin Spacey walk into a bar. What happens next? A crime against humanity. I'm. And I think what is so crazy is, like, so just by happenstance, three men who, all three of them have multiple sexual abuse allegations against them, two of them from minors, just happen to be flying the same. The same man's plane. Like, this is so, like, how can you not use your eyes and ears at this point? Like, this is so ridiculous.

[B]

Well, it's like, even, yeah, like, you know, like, throw Harvey Weinstein in there. Like, look at, like, how much, you know, the MeToo movement. Like, everything. So many people came forward and it put, like, a couple of men away for a second.

[A]

For a second.

[B]

I'm like, oh, wait, we're just right back here, huh?

[A]

And they're like, it's been five years. Give them all movies. So she then is trafficked to then Prince Andrew. And again then, with her excitement of going abroad for the first time, she's meeting a prince who. Which she thinks will impress her abusers, her mom and her dad. She has a disposable camera and asked to take a picture with him so that she can show her family. And this idiot is like, of course. And they pose for a photo, and he then rapes her, and she is trafficked to him. And that photo became key evidence of Virginia's proof that Prince Andrew was a part of all of this. And it came from a teenage girl's excitement to travel and meet people. I think that's what's so fascinating, is this dichotomy of, like. And this will become one of the most important pieces of evidence. Yeah.

[B]

That photo alone, I mean, because of the photo. The other one of, like, her. Is it Naomi Watts birthday?

[A]

It's Naomi Campbell's birthday.

[B]

Naomi Campbell's birthday.

[A]

On a cruise or on a boat. And you can see she is a teenage girl in the shot. And I think what's wild is that. And this will happen a lot in the book, and I'll just sum it up in this moment, which is that people say that photo is doctored or fake. And they were saying that just years before the concept of AI existed. And also, it's like it's a physical photo. And they're like, oh, oh, it's fake.

[B]

That's a Polaroid.

[A]

Yeah. Later, when she speaks out in the press or tells her story in different ways or sometimes doesn't tell all of her story because she's trying to protect herself, these tiny little inconsistencies or outright lies are used to discredit her and be like, you're lying, you're lying, you're lying. And a lot of this book, what broke my heart is that she'd be like, oh, well, I learned a lesson. Like, I shouldn't have taken money from that reporter, because then people could devalue my story, and people wouldn't believe me. And they'd come at her and they'd be like, you're a liar, you're a liar. And I think what. What is so painful is that this entire time, millions of emails have existed proving this.

[B]

Well, I mean, in her. Like, I feel like half of this book, maybe not half, but like, a good portion of this book is her just defending herself for even taking money when she won some of those suits and she's like, these are civil suits. These are like, hey, give me something. I can't work. My life has changed. Like, yeah, it's money, but money does help. I mean, just.

[A]

Does Epstein, like, yeah, I mean, yeah, exactly. And I think the thing you're talking about, which I just want to say really quickly, is that she is able to bring civil cases against Jeffrey Epstein and Galaya and some. And Prince Andrew. And yes, they would then settle before going to trial, before all her evidence came through, and they would pay sums of money. And then people would say, oh, you're a money grabbing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And she has to remind you, like, there's not jail time on the table. They're never.

[B]

There's nothing else I was gonna get.

[A]

The only thing available is money. Yeah. And also, like, how dare you. This person was destroyed as a child and sexually trafficked. And you think, like, because they won their case or was they settled and, like, got a payout, like, this is the least of what should happen. Yeah, money will help maybe.

[B]

Like, yeah, a little bit, but this isn't going to change again.

[A]

But again, like you said, Epsom new money helped. Yeah, maybe. Maybe money is good. Like, it gets so much worse. Worse. It gets so, so much worse. But the turning point for Virginia comes when they decide that she would be the best person to be a surrogate for Ghislaine and Epstein's child. And as part of the contract, they're like, you would travel with the baby. You have no rights to the baby. This baby is ours. If anything ever happens while you're pregnant, like, you'll suffer, like, all these things. She hits a point where she's like, oh, my God. Like, I do not want to help them bring a child into this world, but maybe I have to. I don't know. And so she says to them, at least finally send me to massage school. Like, you've been promising this entire time. You've promised you're going to make me a real masseuse. At least make me a real masseuse if you want me to be your surrogate. And so they concede, and they finally sent her to a real massage school. And in the book she writes, for some reason, they chose a school in Thailand. And I'm like, yeah, because that's where they thought they could hide you away. They thought, like, they could bury you out there, you could get your training and no one would ever, like, get wise to who was paying for this or if you shared any stories. Yeah.

[B]

But also like, keep. I think, like, keep an eye on her enough.

[A]

But that was their fatal mistake. She was far away enough geographically from them finally, that a few days into being there, she meets Robbie. And she says this. Robbie insists he knew instantly that I was his soulmate. I hear a ruckus behind me, and I look around and I see this sheila. He'd tell anyone who asked how we met, using the Aussie slang for a pretty woman. I hadn't had that feeling since I was in primary school. I got these butterflies in my belly and I was just like, she's it. The embodiment of beauty. Jenna was special. Even before I spoke to her, I just knew. Quote. At this point, he usually pauses for effect, raising his dark eyebrows before adding with a laugh, laugh. So I played hard to get, which I think is like, an interesting way to tell this story, because she then writes this. A week into knowing each other, he dropped down onto one knee and proposed. You won't be rich, Robbie told me, but I will work hard to support you. I'll never hurt you. I'll never betray you. I'll be here for you and always love you. I'll have your back until we die. Which, as someone who's just lived what she's been through and has believed no one would ever want to love her, given the sex trafficking she's been through, must have felt like the most beautiful thing she could ever hear. And so she writes, On October 16, 2002, just 10 days after first laying eyes on one another, we hired a translator and we're married. 10 days. 10 days?

[B]

No, that's nothing. I mean, though, just to be clear that when she went to Thailand, like, she knew she wasn't coming back or like she was going there to escape, it didn't come across to me that, like, she went to Thailand and then met Robbie. And then her whole world changed. She was like. Like using Thailand, using massage school as a way to get away from Epstein and Maxwell. And then Robbie came and helped within 10 days. Like, I don't think she had ever planned to go back. Whatever her escape was. Yeah. Once she got to Thailand, I don't think she knew that, but either way, she wasn't going back.

[A]

Yeah, I think my feelings are complicated on it, because you're right. She's like, I'm gonna escape. I'm gonna use this time. But she also drops out of massage school quickly. So this is the paragraph that makes it complicated for me. And then I want to hear what you think she said. Our wedding day was Almost over when I realized I had one more call to make. Robby had made clear that he needed to hear me tell Epstein and Maxwell goodbye. He wanted that for himself, he said, but also for me. I had a right to assert myself, he said, to choose my own path. Robbie believed it would be good for me and us if I said so out loud. I agreed with him in principle, but I still hesitated. Even with eight miles between us, I was afraid of them. Finally, I dialed Epstein's cell phone. I felt a churning in my gut as I waited for him to answer. Would he yell? More likely, he'd threaten. I knew he would stop paying my way at the Royal Princess, which is the massage school. Robbie and I were prepared for that. But could I truly sever my ties to the powerful people who'd ruled my life for more than two years? I still wasn't sure. A few tense moments passed before Epstein picked up. Hello, he said, and his voice, that smug Brooklyn growl, sounded impatient. I fell in love and got married. Jeffrey, I blurted out. I'm never coming back. There was the briefest pause. Have a great life, he said. Then a click. Epstein had hung up on me. We wouldn't speak again for more than five years.

[B]

Yeah, like, that response is very surprising. Like, I was really surprised about that from.

[A]

From Jeffrey.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I guess, honestly, for her, like, he's here abusing. But for him, like, he had hundreds of these girls. I mean, I guess, like, she maybe. However she perceived herself, maybe she was, like, one of his top handful. But, I mean, I mean, I guess that makes you see, like, really how disposable women are to him and, like, to the whole circle, like. Cause. Yeah, like, oh, all right. Well, I just, you know, invested all this time and energy in you, Jenny, and have a good life and.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think for me, what I was stuck on is that Robbie made her make this call. And it's a bit of a power play, and it's a bit of a power takeover. And it also reflects back to me, at least in my vision and so many memoirs I've read this where someone who is being controlled by a parent or an abuser or a partner wants out so badly, and the only way they know how to get out, or the only way offered to them or the only way they find the strength to stand up to the abuser is they substitute. Not intentionally. They find another abuser, and it's not intentional. And I. I think of people, like, I know in my personal life, where they're like, I need to get out of this. And here's this person who's willing to help me. And in accepting their help, you miss the red flags that they're presenting. Right.

[B]

I mean it's just like the same thing as, I mean like a rebound. Like it's like, all right, I mean,

[A]

but it's not so serious because this is a path power play. This is a. I need to see you do this in order for me to be with you. And I think when you're in the throes of abuse, having someone give you that ultimatum probably feels like strength and strength that you wouldn't have. Like she just wrote to do the thing she wanted to do but didn't know how to do on her own. And then you have this person demanding it but also offering to protect you. And I think that's also how you find yourself in another bad situation.

[B]

I mean her entire life, like I feel like she didn't necessarily like was, she was never really independent or the times when she was weren't going that well either.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, like, I mean that's also another just factor in abuse. Like not being able to be independent, not being able to think for yourself, like having to rely on others. I mean that's just one of the reasons that made her a good victim is that she's not or wasn't like self sufficient.

[A]

Yeah. Because all of that was taken from her. And so this is, this is for her in that moment. Moment, a wonderful way out. And she and Robbie move to Australia where he is from. They are married. She learns what non abusive sex can look like or like even weird things where like she was always taught to get a warm towel and clean up Epstein afterwards. And she goes and tries to do it to Robbie. He's like, what are you doing? But like she, she didn't know, she didn't know what sexual activities were like outside of abuse.

[B]

Abuse. Yeah, please. Like, hey, I'm doing this for you. This isn't like we're doing this together kind of stuff. I think that would take like a really long time to relearn or like figure out, you know, like. And also like the warm towel thing, like oh my God, like she might

[A]

have needed space and distance from sexual activity and couldn't take it on because she's a new wife. I don't like, it's clear so much is happening. There's also other instances that like we haven't gone into detail but like she, she's brutalized in some of the trafficking incidents with Jeffrey. She's brutalized by someone so intensely that that's another way where she's like, I have to get out of this because I've just almost died. And so she's been through so much. And she and Robbie are in Australia and she has these tiny little things in the text. So she would write like, Robbie has a temper.

[B]

Yeah, I actually haven't highlighted. Yeah.

[A]

Like, and it was kind of out of nowhere, she would be like, oh, you know, I got pregnant with my first child pretty immediately. Then within a paragraph, robbie has a temper. Then we'd move on from that. And then when her first child, Alex, was just five months old, she got pregnant again. So this is also a mom who's in postpartum, pregnant again, and will have two children in postpartum, which is so intense on a brain.

[B]

And especially after. Well, she was told that she probably would never be able to have kids because, you know, earlier when Epstein took her to the hospital and what she had, what she didn't know was an ectopic pregnancy at the time. Yeah, I mean, this is just more cover ups in Palm Beach. Didn't even know that. Like, this is just the doctor being paid off. Hey, this is a 14 year old girl. Just look away, doc, and get rid of the pregnancy. I'm Jeffrey Epstein. Like, yeah, so what? I mean, we're so like polluted by all of this important shit. Like a little story like that doesn't even matter. That's a pretty big deal.

[A]

Like, and it's such a huge deal. And she's not even told her own medical records. She was told she had a misconception. Yeah.

[B]

Didn't even know. Yeah. Until like years later.

[A]

It's so. It's so horrifying. And she wrote this so Alex, her child. She said. Alex was taking a nap one afternoon in 2007 when the phone rang. When I picked up, I would have known the British accent on the other end of the line anywhere. Hi, how's life? Maxwell cooed. My heart lodged my throat. For five years, not a day had gone by that I didn't think about the possibility of Epstein and Maxwell somehow tracking me down. Down. Now all my old fears came racing to the surface. Maxwell was exactly as I remembered her. Breezy, charming, pushing an agenda. After a little chit chat, she zeroed in on the purpose of her call. I can't believe this. But after everything he's done for all those girls. Jeffrey's being investigated. She told me. Have you been contacted? I told her no. I knew nothing about any Inquiry and had no intention of trying to find out. Maxwell said that I'd be, quote, taken care of if I refused to cooperate with investigators. So long as you don't say anything, everything is fine, she said, even implying that I might be investigating. Get it, too, as if we were all in this together. Quote, if you need legal help, we're here to help you. And this is when the first case is brought up against Epstein in Palm beach of other women he had abused, other underage girls. And that is the case he will eventually spend very minor jail time for. Where he literally leaves the jail every day. Yeah.

[B]

Like work release.

[A]

Yeah. And. And that is also the case where they had so much evidence they could have put him away for life. And Alex Acosta, little Florida fuck who

[B]

went on to be in Trump's cabinet, of course.

[A]

Of course. Basically let him off the hook almost entirely. The fact that Jeffrey had to spend any time in prison at all infuriated him. And then, of course, he comes out of prison. And that is when many of the dinners with big famous celebrity people were reading about in the files happening, happened after going to prison that time.

[B]

Well, and even, like, the evidence that came, like, you know, to bring this case forward, it was just like the exact same scenario. It was like a, you know, 14 year old girl showed up with 200 to middle school or whatever, or high school. They're like, where did you get that? Oh, I can take you. And then one of the mothers, like, called.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Reported, and then they went. And it was just the exact same story. Oh, yeah, they offered me 200. I went to his bedroom, I was gonna massage him. He laid on his back. There were nude photos everywhere. Like, it was just like the exact same story to where I'm like, wait, this isn't evidence. In any, like, normal trial, you can't argue against.

[A]

You can't argue against it. And there's dozens of it. And it's pedophilia. It is what is reviled the. Arguably the most. And it is also what members of Acosta's base and the conservative base and everyone but conservatives are very against pedophilia. Like, this is a horrible, stupid little tangent, but it's just like, like a lot behind QAnon was like, like, there's a cabal of millionaire politicians who are abusing children. It's Pizzagate. Right? And it's like, yes, there is. Yes, yes, you had everything and you're supporting them. That's wrong. But, yeah, man. And so I think that again, like, she is recruited from Mar A Lago Trump's name is mentioned more time in the Epstein files than any than the word God is in the Bible.

[B]

Like, they're. So Harry Potter is in the whole series.

[A]

No, truly. And so when they bring this case about, it is just an undeniable case. And it is because of Alex Acosta that this case isn't brought up. And also watching the documentary was the documentary I'm talking about is called Filthy Rich, the Epstein case. And I'm like, yeah, for that it should be called Pedophile. Pedophile, man. But it's like Filthy Rich. Through the draft re up scene and even in one of the piece of footage that the documentary haunts me is one of the girls who recruited other girls came forward to give her witness account to the police. And the middle aged police dude is like, you're a criminal. And berates her and makes her fear for her life. And that really took me back to the 2000s. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's now too, but for me personally, it's like, right. Oh, and then like, no, even when you have a young girl coming forward to report a crime, they are mistreated again. So moving on. Basically, Virginia is later contacted and starts to tell her story, and she starts to tell it in the press. She will later bring about these civil cases we had talked about and also with the FBI. And again, those are those parts where it's like she told her story to the press. And then Sharon Churcher, you bitch. You bitch. Sharon Churcher, whoever you are, wherever you are, who worked for the Daily Mail, like, just made her out to be like a. In the press or would call her a prostitute or would bend her story or would sell it for money and would do all these horrible things to her in the name of helping her get her story out. There was a whole piece that Vanity Fair, a reporter did for them on Epstein's crimes that they never published. And Grayson Carter, also, you little. I used to read your magazine at the library all the time too, and I hate it. Grayson Graydon, I'm not getting it right. One of them, Carter, he has his little letters from the editor. I know people like him. Sorry, I don't. But he squashed that story and even later was like, it didn't meet our reporting standards. That's why it went away. Like, oh, sure, sure, buddy. Okay, so I want to read this part about when she speaks with the FBI. And we're covering like a lot, a long amount of years now, so she gets free at 19 for 5 years she is free of this and was with her family. And then she slowly starts to speak out more and more with the FBI. She had Robbie come with her and they were going to interview her at the US Consulate in Sydney. And she said, I identified several men who had abused me. Robbie insisted on being by my side. Okay, so it was Robbie's choice. Robbie insisted on being by my side during the interview, which was both a plus and a minus. As always, he made me feel safe. But when I described being passed around from man to man to man, my husband got almost upset as I was was at one point, as the line of questioning got more and more detailed, Robbie completely lost it. Lashing out at the federal agents. You sick pervert. To yell. Do you really need to know every thing that happens in each and every room? I tried to calm him down. Robbie, they have to ask all their questions, I said. But when I mentioned even tiny details Robbie hadn't yet heard, he was gutted. You may wonder why I'd kept things from him. But the truth was, at a certain point in our marriage, he'd said he didn't want to hear any more about my time with with Epstein. Now, though, he felt blindsided. Why didn't you tell me those things before? He asked, when we got home from the consulate. Because I didn't want you to know every awful fact I told him, stroking his head. This is like making me sick. She has to take care of this man through one of the worst moments. Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, he wanted to be there. He wanted to hear it all, but he didn't want to hear anything before. This is like a control thing. Even when she cuts off like all of her ties with her father and her father says, who's gonna take care of me? It's like, I don't give a fuck. You didn't take care of me when I was a kid.

[A]

And also like you have to stroke Robbie's head to make him feel better after this day when you had to

[B]

relive this, like, seriously, you. This is your pity party, Robbie. Like, okay.

[A]

No, truly. I mean, it's just so. It's so infuriating. And she then starts, you know, it's this years long battles of legal battles that she is able to bring about in court. But she has to talk with lawyers, she has to discover evidence. She works with podcasts, she does media. She's trying to get her story out as much as possible to bring him down. So of course we know that Jeffrey died in jail while Awaiting trial. Many people allege it was not death by suicide, that it was a, you know, murder, that it was people not wanting him to be able to say all that he knew. I mean, in all of his depositions, he pled the 5th and the 14th and never spoke on anything.

[B]

I want to know where all this. All these tapes are.

[A]

The tapes Alex is talking about is that Jeffrey had cameras in all the rooms on all his properties in the island. And so that people who came there and who raped and abused underage girls are on camera.

[B]

Well, even Virginia mentions that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In the book. She's like, part of his whole system was blackmail.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, and that all of this is. And I think she even, like, had brought that up with the FBI. She's like, where are all these tapes? Where are these cameras? Like his whole business was blackmail.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not just childhood prostitution ring.

[A]

Oh, yeah, no, absolutely. And. And she wrote that when I turned 38, I realized I'd spent the second half of my life surviving the first. So she spent the first half of her life severely abused and trafficked, and she spent the second half of her life trying to heal from it and trying to speak out and trying to help others. And, of course, was brutalized in this process. She brings a case against Prince Andrew, who settles with her. They say the Queen paid out that sum so that he wouldn't be further embarrassed. Thankfully, now he's hopefully finally actually paying for these crimes a bit. He still denies that he gave that insane interview where he's like, I actually don't sweat, so I couldn't have. And in this period of time, forgot

[B]

about the no sweating thing.

[A]

I mean, how just unbelievable. They have moved back and forth between America and Australia. She has gone back and forth between trying with her father, cutting off her father, coming back together with her mom, getting an apology for her, speaking with her siblings, letting them know what happened. So much has happened. But when we get to the end of the book, she goes through so much health stuff. You could even argue, like, the amount of trauma from revisiting all of this is. Has taken hold in her body.

[B]

A spine and sternum surgery in, like, 20, 23 or something. Yeah.

[A]

And then she's, like, bitten by a mosquito and then gets sick, then gets pneumonia, then gets a staph infection. There's a lot happening.

[B]

It's like two years of all that. Yeah.

[A]

And she writes this at one point. And then I'm going to talk about the note at the beginning of the book. She said, from the earliest days of a relationship Robbie had been my protector, my savior. Even now he was going to deliver us from danger once again. He rented a large mobile home and loaded the kids, the dogs and me into it. Within a few hours we had hit the road heading north. North. I didn't think I could maneuver that big of a vehicle, so Robbie drove for eight hours straight and this is when she's been receiving death threats for speaking out. We ended up in a one horse town at the top end of Queensland, not far from Cape Melville National Park. The town had no grocery, just a convenience store where we could buy milk and bread, but it was completely off the grid, which is what we needed most. There we would stay, cooking and sleeping in our rv, swatting mosquitoes and occasionally fishing for three weeks. She then tweeted, I am making it publicly known that in no way, shape or form am I suicidal. I typed hastily but resolutely, making several spelling and grammatical errors that I've corrected here. I have made this known to my therapist and gp. If something happens to me, for the sake of my family, do not let this go away and help me to protect them. Too many evil people want me quieted. And now I'm going to go to the very beginning of the book and this is the note that makes the whole book even harder than it is. This is the co author writing on the night of January 9th, the morning of January 10th in Australia, Virginia called me in a state of extreme distress. She said that the previous evening she and Robbie had had an argument and that he had assaulted her. We talked for a long time. She sent me photographs of her face, which appeared discolored and swollen. I made sure she was in a safe place and offered to reach out to her mother and her brother, both of whom I contacted. Virginia reported the incident to police in Western Australia, but they did not charge Robbie with any crime. Robbie made allegations of his own which resulted in a restraining order against Virginia that prohibited contact with her children. This profoundly hurt Virginia. The alleged January incident was not without precedent. At one point, Virginia had told me about a time in 2015 in Colorado when Robbie was arrested after assaulting her. I tracked down a sheriff's deputy who worked the case. He spoke with me about length about the incident and said that a restraining order had been put in place that prohibited Robbie from returning home home. But according to the Sheriff's department, documentation of that incident was no longer available to the public. Virginia presented this episode as an isolated incident and said that for the sake of her kids, she didn't want to appear in the book, that was a terrible tapture that had occurred during a very tense time in their life, she told me. And she and Robbie had worked hard to put it behind them. Robbie, too, said as much when in person he referred to the incident obliquely. I knew that there were all kinds of reasons that a woman who had been domestically abused might choose to stay silent. I also knew that people who are victims of child abuse are considerably more likely, 15 times more likely, according to one widely cited study, to be victims of abuse later in life. And then later, she writes, On April 5th, Virginia released a statement to People magazine stating publicly for the first time that her husband had abused her and specifically cited the alleged incident on January 9. And she said, I can no longer stay silent. Less than three weeks later, Virginia was dead. I'm going to change the words here. Having died by suicide at her remote farm. Before this book went to press, Virginia's two brothers and their wives came forward with their concerns that the book she wrote underplayed the domestic abuse that she allegedly had experienced. They publicly offered their account of what they believe was a long standing abuse that their sister had suffered during her marriage. So I just sort of instantly knew why she would hide it. I think someone whose credibility was constantly being questioned, who only had believed they had one savior, a person who had many times she felt saved her, that it was worth protecting him, and that it would only make her look worse if she had spoken about it. And again, she'd lived an entire life in these situations.

[B]

It's literally just like when it comes to that much abuse, it's just all relative. Like, it's like seriously the lesser of all the evil evils.

[A]

Like, I mean, but it also, it's like I felt instant understanding and instant horror too. Like, it is, it's a book about speaking out against abuse that no one has believed, has purposely not believed for so many years. And someone is like, please believe me, this is what happened, this is the truth. And they're spending the entire book hiding and protecting a different abuse. And so it's is a pretty intense concept to read every page with. It's something I again, like I said, it's like, I fully get it, but it does. It didn't make it any less difficult to read the things about him being a hero.

[B]

Well, but then also, yeah, I mean the whole hero thing, like, yeah, but then you have all the side notes in the beginning, like, Robbie had a temper and you're like, huh?

[A]

But I think that's why I wish the note had Been in the back. Because if you read this book, you are going, why is she saying he's a timber? Why is he flipping out at the FBI's office? Why is he forcing her to call them on the night of their wedding? Like, all of these things are there. But she's also writing. I mean, the book begins with, like, my husband says, I am a warrior. And he's right. I'm a warrior. I can do this because my husband believes in me. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, that whole other side of, like, he saved me. Like, kind of the Stockholm syndrome. Like, you love your abuser, you know, and, like, you know, even the whole reason she came out, she had two sons. It was the daughter that made her want to come out. Like, apparently they've been. Been going through a divorce for, like, two years or at least a year and a half before she passed. And even when all of this domestic abuse and stuff was reported in January and they were filing for restraining order and for custody of the kids, he has custody. So whoever, you know, this cop, after the cops were called, whatever, in January, she's posting all these or sending it to the author of her abuse and everything. And the cops are like, no. And they give the man custody.

[A]

Like, yeah, still, Like, I think there's so many questions, so many details left out. Again, like, all she had were people taking away her credibility all the time. And, yeah, in the back of this book, it's a really short section, but she starts writing about her mental health and how she has attempted suicide a couple of times. And one of the times she's like, God, the look on Rob. Like, it was heartbreaking. And I'm trying to get better mentally for my kids and for Robbie, but the trauma is overtaking me. Yeah.

[B]

Physical trauma. And then also, I mean, just, like, these surgeries and, like, pain that she had gone through.

[A]

Like, she gets a car wreck, her neck is broken. There's also.

[B]

Yeah. And then this renal failure, and then posted that she only had a few days to live.

[A]

I think what got me the most is. Is this is me not trying not to be emotional. The thing that got me the most. It's been so long since I've cried on this podcast that, oh, I am gonna cry. What really got me and what I. I don't know what the right word is. What I appreciate being in the text and here is how you can be. Constantly standing up and a source of strength for her survivor sisters, constantly retelling her story, constantly being so brave, enduring death threats, enduring all kinds of threats against her family, to get this truth out there and to fight for what's right while having a traumatized brain that hurts you every day. How you could stand up for yourself and others and also have your own brain telling you that you're worthless. And how those exist side by side. And I think they often can exist side by side. That level of strength and the same level of pain. And so in this book, you know, she's literally writing this book down to try and get this story out while she is in the throes of not wanting to be here anymore. Right.

[B]

I mean, I also. Because I know they're writing the book for four years and, you know, she passed in April. The book was released in October. Do you know what was that always supposed to be the release? I know, like, her final words were like, we want this book to be released. But I mean, was the plan for all this?

[A]

I don't know. I mean, she sent an email saying, like, no matter what, please publish.

[B]

Right? I want this book release. And then. And that was kind of around the same time when she came out with the abuse against Robbie as well. That I'm just wondering if it was like, okay. But then I'm like, well, why didn't she release the name of the prime minister that abused her that she keeps talking about?

[A]

Because she said that he threatened to destroy her family. And what she cares about most is her kids. I mean, there's just a lot of dark stuff here that is unknown. Yeah.

[B]

You never know why people do the things.

[A]

It's also purposefully unknown. Like, there's a lot of things that aren't written about in this book. There are things that are not included purposefully by her from what she was going through. And I think also you could reason with yourself of like, I'm going through all of this with Epstein. I can't do this in another area of my life. I can't do this in the only other area of my life. He was the only person she'd known as a protector since she was 19, which includes her parents not being there for her. I think the other thing that really upsets me about this book is that the co author takes time, as they have to do, to talk about her credibility and all the fact checking they did. So even though, you know, she lied and protected Robbie in this book, everything else included here is true. And here's all the reporting and factoring and all the witnesses I've talked to. Right. And this is what she does in the book. Again, this is why I wish it was at the end. And I know. At least I think I know that Virginia probably didn't want to talk about this for a long time because she also thought this would hurt her credibility. This person who would co. Sign off for being a good person, a good mother, be telling the truth for 20 years, that she was also going to report that abuse, that that would affect her credibility. And I think what kills me is how much time is spent talking about her credibility. Millions and millions and millions and millions, millions of emails exist about what happened. Dozens and dozens of hundreds of victims exist that we would still argue her credibility and still push her down. And this happens constantly and everywhere. But it just makes me sick that this is, like, what the focus has to be on when it's like, we don't need any more evidence.

[B]

Right. Because, I mean, I feel like she was never, like, lying about Robbie. You know, it wasn't like, making stuff out or anything. I think it was. Yeah, it's just more like, like, hiding it, like, for her own protection or just not talking about it. And the fact that that could damage her credibility is. I mean, what is one of the major things that's wrong with. I mean, the whole. The whole investigation, the whole Epstein file thing is that why are we not believing these girls? Why in with evidence?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

It's still like, no, no, no. But, you know, this redacted email, like,

[A]

no, the amount of infuriating is like, it's hard to. So it's what makes it hard to read this book and live with this book and talk about it, because. But it's not this book. It's everything. It's like, you're saying it's everything.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's so present. Like, the whole. This book is very relevant to exactly what's going on.

[A]

Yeah, No, I know. And as Trump does more and more things to distract from his involvement in this giant case of pedophilia. Let's do the book dual test. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth? Yes. Yes, yes, Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Second question. Was it entertaining to read? That's a no for me. Entertaining is just really not the word I would use. I am so deeply grateful she wrote it. But entertaining is just not the word for this.

[B]

Right? Yeah. I mean, it is. It's not like, oh, I want to read this book and feel happy. Like, I want to read this book and dismantle the patriarchy.

[A]

But, yeah, yeah, it was. It was definitely good to read it, but it was really brutal to make it through Final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

[B]

Again, elevate is a strong. Yeah. I mean, I think it just proves a lot of things that I knew or thought to be true. Did it, I don't know, elevate?

[A]

Make you rethink or bring any clarity to any of the things we had gone through?

[B]

Yeah, I absolutely. I mean, I feel. I feel like I would do this a lot where it's just like, oh, why would you believe two teenage girls when we could lose state? If he goes down, you bitches. What are you.

[A]

Go be sluts. We have an athletic event to win, you stupid whores.

[B]

Who cares what you bitches are saying? Like, yeah, exactly. It's like, all right, a whole nother level, but it's the exact same thing. A lot of parallels.

[A]

Yeah. I think that's what gets me too. Like, I can even go back and read my journals. I have letters from you. I have, like, things we. Well, things we did and then I scrapbooked. We really thought. And I think, because you're made to feel this way in some cases, and the way they also portray teenage girls when it comes to sex and violence in relationships, which is that, like, this is your choice and you're an adult woman, and they want it to be portrayed that way for their own culpability. But I think then you as a child, like, I just remember we really thought we had everything under control and we could fix everything for so long, and then literally, it's like, we can fix this, and the next day we have to be high school dropouts. It just was so beyond my capacity of understanding in ways that took me years to look back and understand.

[B]

Right. I mean, some things in the world aren't meant to be dealt with by teenage girls.

[A]

Yeah, that's really the simple way of putting it. Yes. It elevated my life. And I'm gonna read one paragraph towards the end of the book. Sexual trafficking should not be a secret only to be whispered about in hushed tones or not at all. It is a horrible, trauma inducing crime, and we must talk about it if we ever want it to end. That's part of why I wrote this book. And I've tried on every page to be transparent. I've made mistakes in my life and I've had moments I'm not proud of. But I haven't let those human flaws keep me from telling my story. As my collaborator and I worked together to finish this book, she sent me a line by the writer Helen Rosner that rings true to me. Me. Memoir is the art of shining a light behind you, picking at the stitches of your life to see how it was made. That's what I've tried to do, to examine my life in hopes of destigmatizing victims experiences. Because only by speaking out can we move ourselves and others to act. And normally I sing this, but I just can't right now. But this is the theme of the podcast, theme of the podcast. And definitely every time I get to witness someone's story, I get to rewitness my own and witness others. And I just think the most powerful thing a woman can do is to share her own story because it impacts so many others when she does it. In a world where we are taught not to share and this is, it's genderless and also it is gendered, we are often taught to be silent. And so yes, that elevated my life. Alex, you have joined me for this absolutely devastating episode from a host. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and Everyplate. We will link to those brands in the show notes. Go check them out. Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes. And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon sign up. There's a free tier you can join. Leave a comment chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the book club continuing over there.