← Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
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Three month plan $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com welcome to glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today we're book clubbing. Sister Wife A Memoir of Faith, Family and Finding Freedom by Christine Brown Woolley. This memory book is called Sister Wife because you know Christine from the TLC Show Sister Wives. 19 seasons, four wives, 18 children and one sad man named Cody Brown as the the husband and the center of it all. Now, I did not watch Sister Wives. I've only seen clips. And I was riveted by this memoir. It felt like I got a recap of all 19 seasons, but only the highlights. And with hindsight and like drama and extra gossip from Christine who who has left Cody, left the church, left polygamy. She is writing this as an ex wife. I found it fascinating and I know my guest is a fan of the show, so I cannot wait. Let's just dive right in. Where mine and Cody's marriage started to.
- [01:43]
B
Disintegrate is actually when I was pregnant.
- [01:45]
A
With Truly, I was overwhelmed with everything. I still had to like produce some sort of income. So I was working at night And Aspen in fifth grade was tucking the.
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B
Kids in bed at night, 10 years.
- [01:57]
A
Old, running the house after I'd leave for work. And I asked Cody, I said, I need your help.
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B
And he goes, I can't do that. I'm in other houses.
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A
I'm like, we live in one house. You just can't come over and tuck.
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B
My kids in bed and talk to them and put them in bed. And he said, no, I just can't.
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A
My guest today is Olivia Minter, a writer, reader and the co host of the Bad on Paper podcast. Her first novel, such a Bad Influence, was an instant USA Today bestseller. Her second novel, Little One, is already on the way. It's gonna be published in 20, 20, 26. Hi, Olivia.
- [02:30]
B
Hi. I am so excited to be here. It is a dream to talk about Sister Wives this in depth.
- [02:37]
A
I have been trying to make you a friend of mine for a long time. I feel happy I've finally gotten you here. We've almost met in person so many times at book events. So I was like, please come on my podcast so I can make you my friend. And I was like, would you ever want to cover a celebrity memoir? And you said, probably eight months before this book was published, you said, christine Brown Wooley is coming out with a memoir a year from now. Can I do that one, please? Tell me, what led you to choose this book?
- [03:06]
B
I am fascinated with Sister Wives. I am. I am not the hardest core of all fans, probably, but I feel like I am deep in the lore. I have watched probably all the episodes. It is such a fascinating portrait of a family, but also a very insular community and religion and patriarchy. And like, everything I'm interested in is just in this one family. And the last few years in particular, as Christine has left and now most of his wives have left. Spoiler.
- [03:42]
A
All but one, right?
- [03:43]
B
All but one. All but the one, which we'll get into. It's something else. It's something else.
- [03:49]
A
Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating to me, too. As you were talking, like, all the things I'm interested in, like patriarchy, like family culture, finding your way in the world. And also, just on this podcast, we just had one of the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives memoirs, Macy Neely. And I was like, wow, we are in such a Mormon moment in culture right now. I mean, everywhere. Everywhere. And I would say, like, a huge part of pop culture is now featuring Mormons. And I gotta tell you, I grew up in Utah for eight years. I always thought it was the weirdest thing about me that I went to LDS Church every Sunday for many years, despite never converting and only to grow up and be like, I'm sorry, this is. The majority of pop culture is relating to Mormons right now. Why do you think this is happening?
- [04:35]
B
Well, I mean, everything is shifting in the direction of the tradwives and right wing, and we're kind of going back in many dark ways. And I think in some ways, Mormon culture and the LDS Church is this combination of, like, that. The trad wife ness of it all and also this weird version of feminism. And it's a combination of all these things where these really, really young women are like, I can have a multimillion Dollar business on stub sec. I can be on Dancing with the Stars. I can have seven children by the time I'm 22. I can get plastic surgery. And I can also be beautifully made in God's image. I don't really know.
- [05:17]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This book is fascinating because she's like, I left the faith. Don't believe in polygamy. But also I still do, and I uphold the faith. But also my wedding dress had a deep V neck and was sheer lace.
- [05:29]
B
Like, it was deep, deep. It was real deep. It was a this.
- [05:32]
A
The deep V on her second wedding dress.
- [05:34]
B
I respect it. She knew what she wanted and she got it.
- [05:38]
A
I said, take it below your belly button, Christine. I think this is what you need. Okay, so overall, as someone who's seen the show, what did you think of the book?
- [05:48]
B
I think that it is a really good encapsulation of the show as a whole. I don't think there was a ton of new stuff.
- [05:56]
A
Yeah.
- [05:56]
B
But it kind of just added this extra layer of depth to what we already knew. And there were some things that I was like, I knew it. I knew it. And now it has been confirmed. And God damn it, Cody and your curly ass hair. It was entertaining. It was different than I thought it would be. I will say that it was very different.
- [06:15]
A
What did you expect it would be as a viewer?
- [06:17]
B
I guess I kind of wondered how much new information we would get. And also, in the recent seasons, Christine's storyline has been so much about David, this new relationship that she's in. And it's a lot of David, and God bless the man, but he's not quite as good on television as Cody is in some ways.
- [06:36]
A
Not to call me, which actually makes you really. It makes you happy because you're like, if he was really good on the show, I'd be so worried that he was like, wanted to be on the reality show versus just like a nice man Christine found.
- [06:49]
B
Yeah, he's got one level to his voice. It is very monotone and, you know, good for him. But what I was saying is that I guess the book is much more about Christine and her journey from start to finish. And David has maybe one chapter and I was like, thank God. Thank God.
- [07:05]
A
Okay.
- [07:05]
B
Okay.
- [07:06]
A
Yeah. Although I gotta say, this book does the memoir curse, where they introduce a new lover in the final chapter and they end their book on their new happy ending, which is still quite recent now she and David are still together. But you never want to end the memoir of your entire life on a brand new lover. Like, they gotta.
- [07:23]
B
You.
- [07:23]
A
They should be in your life for five years before they can, like, be the final chapter in your book. That's what I think. Okay, let's dive in. So Christine is polygamy royalty. And I want to read a little bit of the preface to get us in here. And then I'm going to point out some extreme contradictions in her own book that exist everywhere. So she writes.
- [07:47]
B
Yeah.
- [07:47]
A
I'm like, oh, boy. So she said, but was I in a cult? Ahem. I can hear you. If I was, I'm glad of it. I come from a family and community filled with talent, nurturing, and love and women who had the support and ability to make good decisions for themselves. I think of my grandfather as a hero because he pushed through his fear of outsiders after seeing his family torn apart to try and make our community safer. I'm glad I had the opportunity to do the same. Even if I ultimately chose to leave that community. And I thought I'd had exactly what I wanted until I realized my husband had fallen in love. She's talking about Cody Brown. And then I realized that I wanted some of that. I wanted to fall in love to find my soulmate. An idea I hadn't believed in until I saw it happen to Cody. Such a weird, weird story. So we should talk about her being polygamy royalty, because that's kind of. That's a big piece of this story and maybe why she's saying she was happy to be born into a culture. So I just want to read a little bit of the background she includes in the book. Okay. She's talking about her great grandpa, who was LDS or Mormon, which she uses interchangeably in the book. She says, I promise to make this quick. In about 1830, Joseph Smith founded the LDS Church. By the time he died in 1844, he had as many as 40 wives, according to the church. Our next LDS Church leader, Brigham Young, married 56 women. We were taught it was a way to convert more people and grow the church through lots of children. I love that they said the quiet part out loud.
- [09:13]
B
Yes, I was. I was happy.
- [09:15]
A
Do you know what I mean? They're off. Just like we're building an army through childbirth so that they can grow up not knowing anything but what we tell them.
- [09:22]
B
Yes.
- [09:22]
A
And that's.
- [09:23]
B
And we. That's good. Yeah. At least they know. I mean, I wish she also would have said, I think it's just because the men want to be able to, like, fuck whoever they want all the time.
- [09:30]
A
But, yeah, you know, well, she kind of did. She said, others have argued it was a way to build a patriarchal society and exalt virility, which I think is the wordy way to say, have men be in charge and put their dicks places.
- [09:45]
B
Yes.
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A
Is that what exalts virility means?
- [09:47]
B
I mean, that's kind of what I got, but I wish she would have been like, here's where I come down on that. Other than yes, but yes.
- [09:55]
A
Oh, 100%. And then she spends a lot of time talking about how, like, maybe you have heard of, like, other bad Mormons who, like, molest children and they live in poverty and wear clothing straight out of Little House on the Prairie. But, like, that's not us. Like, we're not. Not that group at all. We're not Warren Jeffs. We're a different group. And then she goes on to describe her grandpa, who was murdered by another polygamous man. I think his brother. And I said, wait a minute. I've seen that documentary, too. And she's a part of a long lineage of polygamous Mormons who had infighting. And this man married two women and then made those two women go and murder a man he was jealous of. That man was Christine's great grandfather.
- [10:37]
B
Yeah.
- [10:37]
A
Which is that right?
- [10:38]
B
Which standard? The man being like, you guys do it. I'm fine. You know, like, here's the gun go off.
- [10:45]
A
That's why it's so funny to me. Be like, you guys are subservient wives. You can't have power in the church. You can't hold leadership. Also, go murder a man for me and do all the hard work. Thanks, girls.
- [10:54]
B
And have 900 children after that. Yeah. There is one point in the beginning where she literally is like, and then my grandfather was murdered at the chiropractic practice where he worked. But my childhood was beautiful and great, and I was like, okay, we should have spent more time there. Maybe, Like, I'm backing up, but all right.
- [11:12]
A
This book is so fascinating because she's fully left the church, and yet half of her has not. And still, like, she lives in a dichotomy of, like, everything was horrible, and also, everything was great and fine. It's really weird. She wrote this later. She said, while I questioned things that scared me, I didn't question plural marriage or our faith. As far I could tell, she's talking about her mom. She believed in our faith, but she was also a bit of a feminist. I think my grandma may have been, too, which is not unusual in polygamy. Ma' am. And you're like, okay, that's incorrect. But then she says, I come from a long line of divorces, which to me says more about freedom and strong women than it does about dysfunction. And I was like, okay, and now I'm back. What a great sentence. And then she said, in our church, we marry whom we want, and there are no underage marriages. We don't marry our relatives, though distant cousins sometimes come into the mix. No one forces us to marry old men or widowers with 10 children. I said, what a beautiful dream of a sentence you've written.
- [12:13]
B
Yeah, I think in that you have to clarify, like, when you say some cousins are fine, like, how. How distant are we talking in that? Like, I think you have to specify. But yeah, I'm with you. All of the parts you're saying I underlined, like, every single one. So we're on the same page.
- [12:30]
A
Oh, yeah. It's also. It's like she doesn't fully understand indoctrination and that she was indoctrinated and that, like, I think she still lives in a world forcing you to marry someone you don't want to marry looks like one of Irville's wives holding you at gunpoint.
- [12:43]
B
Right? Yeah.
- [12:45]
A
And being like, you must marry this man or else. Whereas, like, it really can be just grooming you your entire life to marry someone you never would have chosen on your own, like Christine did. And she doesn't seem to realize that still, even though she regrets everything about her marriage. Yeah.
- [13:01]
B
And accepting bare minimum for bare. I mean, minimum. The bar is in hell. Quite literally.
- [13:09]
A
The bar is. Yeah, I would say the bar is in outer darkness, which is what Mormons believe in. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. I did it. I found a pair of pants that I like so much. I ordered a pair in every single color. And those pants are from Quint and it is their ultra pont extra wide leg stretch pants. They have these pants in just like normal wide leg and a different cut. But I love their extra wide leg. They're so well made. I got them in brown, navy and black. And they have different inseams. So I was able to order a 32 inch inseam because I'm tall. I love it. Quint has it all. They have $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters made for everyday wear, denim that doesn't come out of style, silk tops, skirts that add polish. It feels very chic, just like a very chic set of basics. You can also get blankets for your couch. You can get new slippers by working directly with ethical top tier factories. Quince skips the middlemen and offers prices for 50% less than similar brands. Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished and last from Quints perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com glamorous for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N C-E.com glamorous to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com glamorous this episode is brought to you by Disney. This Thanksgiving, Judy Hopps and Nick Wilde are back on the big screen. So grab your family and friends as Disney invites you to return to Zootopia for the fur nominal movie event of the holiday season. See all your favorite Zootopia characters, plus new favorites in the most paw eomet movie of the year. Don't miss Disney Zootopia 2 when it hits theaters everywhere November 26th. Get your tickets now. Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. Okay, so that's what she wrote at the beginning of the book. If I was in a culture, I am glad of it. Then she goes on quite a journey and I guess no one catches it. Not the ghostwriter, not the editor, because then she writes this. She says, I am not a fan of polygamy. I think it makes men lazy and women work harder. And then she said, writing this has been gut wrenching embarrassing. I'm telling people intimate things that I don't even want my kids to know. My friends are careful about what they see in front of me because they know some things will still hurt. I'm embarrassed that I stayed. I'm embarrassed that I allowed him to treat me the way I did. I'm embarrassed that I didn't love myself anymore. But I understand that I stayed until I realized tomorrow wasn't gonna get any better. So what do you make of this?
- [16:06]
B
So much. I don't know. I think what you're describing I kept coming up against while reading, which is like this whiplash of like, one sentence I would be like, really moved and the next I would be like, yeah, what? And like, sorry. Like at one point I had tears in my eyes towards the end when we're getting to some of the heavier stuff that's happened in their family. And then she hits me with the. And I was five pounds away from my goal weight of my wedding day. And I'm like, That's what you want to end your memoir with? Of like freedom and self expression and like self knowledge. Your goal weight literally in numbers. Like the digits, anyway. Yeah, yeah, Whiplash, I think Dringo.
- [16:47]
A
She lists her exact weight twice in the book. She's like, dringo, I'm a hundred and shouldn't say that. I say drinko. And she says, I was almost at 170 pounds for my wedding. So. One of the most fascinating parts of this book to me was the stuff about her weight and her body image. First in that, like, a huge thing for her is that she always wanted to be a third wife. Like, growing up, she was like, the third one's the best position because the first one took the brunt. The second one, they work it out, and then the third one comes in and just chills. Just coast.
- [17:19]
B
When she does make sense.
- [17:22]
A
It does make sense.
- [17:22]
B
Oh, wait.
- [17:23]
A
Question for you. Okay, Olivia, if you were going to be a first, second, third, fourth, fifth, or whatever wife, what number of wife would you want to be?
- [17:30]
B
Janelle was two. Right. Whatever Janelle figured out, I just. She had. She has so much strength and independence and power. And that might be like a personal trait of hers, and I think it is. But for some reason, I think if you just get somewhere in the middle, you know, you're not the last, you're not the first. You can kind of, I don't know, disappear into the background if you decide you've married a monster. Which I think they all did.
- [17:56]
A
Yeah. And Christine was like, my whole life, I watched everyone be in plural marriages. I said, I gotta be number three, baby. And then she gets in. And it was like, harder than I thought. Harder than I thought. But she was taught to believe this idea that it was still gonna be true love, that it was gonna be romance, that she was gonna have something very special with her partner. And when Kody just pecks her on the mouth and her own grandpa is like, geez, that's the shortest kiss in polygamy history I've ever seen.
- [18:23]
B
And he would know. Cause he probably has 75 weddings at that point.
- [18:26]
A
So, yeah, imagine your own grandpa, like, you get your first kiss. She'd never kissed a man at all, let alone Cody. She was saving her first kiss for the altar. Cause that's what she thought was romance and the fairy tale. Instead, it's terrible and awkward. And then also she said she wore a really frumpy wedding dress because she was so consumed with her own purity and piety that she didn't get to experience beauty or being a woman and things like that. Okay, so then in the book, it comes out that Cody was like, you're hideous and ugly. And he tells a story on camera about how, quote, when they were dating, I guess they were on some terrible road trip with the other wives, and he was courting Christine, and he said one morning there was this, quote, chubby girl in my car eating chili cheese nachos from the gas station for breakfast. And I said, yuck. I paraphrased a bit, but I pretty.
- [19:20]
B
Close, pretty much it. Yeah.
- [19:21]
A
And she finds out years into her marriage, that little bitch Cody doesn't think she is thin enough to be his. I was shook by this. How did this play out on the show?
- [19:33]
B
I mean, on the show, it's kind of like a huge moment that I think comes up again and again and again, because by the time you get to the breakup, you're like, oh, yeah, this makes sense. But I think something really interesting that I think is not talked about enough is that actually none of his first three wives were thin until Robyn. And so there's something really dark about that that, like, suddenly Robyn came along and she's the pinnacle of perfection and is much, much thinner than all these other women. And I don't know, it's part of Mormon culture too. Like, the control through food and through image. And, like, I think that's what we're seeing now with, like, the plastic surgery culture in the LDS Church in Utah. And Cody is like. He says the quiet part out loud, like you said earlier, and you're like, oh, yeah, this is exactly who you are. And God only knows what other weird shit is going on that you're not saying. Like, that's the scariest part.
- [20:26]
A
To me, what you just said is so devastating because it's this perfectionism culture. But the idea of perfectionism is this patriarchal control of women via their looks. Like, put all your time and energy into fitting into these impossible boxes so that you are not, I don't know, walking away from polygamy, but in Christine's church, because piety and not being sexual and not looking at women that way was, like, how she grew up. She was always taught, like, you know, don't be sexy, don't wear a tight fitting sweater, because that would be rude to the other wives. Don't wear jeans that fit because that would be sexualizing yourself and ungodly, like. And then, yes, Robin, the fourth wife comes along and, oh, my God, she wears slacks. She wears a trouser from Old Navy and everybody loses it because they can kind of see the outline of her ass. Like, I really want to make it clear that, like, in the book, she was like, robin came along and, wow, could she dress. She had seen style. She was sexy. And I looked it up, and I said, are we talking about the same person? Because you're definitely just talking about, like, a woman in pants in regular degular Old Navy jeans, which I'm wearing. Right. But the way she described it was like, you've never seen a hotter, sexier woman in your life.
- [21:45]
B
Yeah. I think Cody calls her a Diesel jeans model, which I'm like, what is that? Even. That conjures no specific image in my mind, by the way. Yeah.
- [21:53]
A
I think she just has on jeans that are the right size. So it's like, whatever size she was, she wore those jeans. And all the other wives were taught, like, you should wear jeans that are 19 sizes too big. Less you show, like, the outline of a calf. And Cody gets a boner.
- [22:06]
B
Yeah.
- [22:07]
A
When you're running errands.
- [22:08]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [22:09]
A
So I think that is what is so sad. And all of this, she then focuses on the problem being her weight, and then starts, like, working out is a revelation to her being healthy. Choosing food. It's also kind of sad. It's very childlike. There was something very empowering about her being, like, I didn't know I could, like, go for a power walk. And I liked taking care of myself. And then there was another part of it that was devastating where she's like, cody didn't want to fuck me even though I'd gotten my weight down.
- [22:35]
B
Yeah.
- [22:36]
A
And I was like, this is devastating.
- [22:38]
B
Yep.
- [22:39]
A
And then she takes a chapter at the end. I can't get over this. To give us dieting advice.
- [22:44]
B
Oh, my God, Yes. You should have seen my face. I was just like, why are we doing this? Like, why are you telling me to eat a 100 calorie snack pack right now?
- [22:56]
A
She was like, go on a walk and get those extra hundred calories, girl. I'm like, what? Yes.
- [23:01]
B
And she's like. And then you can. She used the word. I circled it. Earn. Which I hate this language around food. Like, you can earn food, but it's all connected in this. Like, you need to suffer in order to prove that you are good. And, yeah, that's discussed a lot with, like, being a good wife and a good sister wife. And I think, you know, being good when it comes to food is such common language. And I just think it's. But for some reason, it's such a big but also small part of the book. You know, it's like it keeps coming up, but not in a way that's like there's been any sort of growth or revelation. I don't know. It's very inconsistent, I think.
- [23:38]
A
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I just wrote this in the notes over and over again. Her worldview is so small. It is so small. There was so many times I was so happy for her processing her growth and her thoughts. And at the same time, I thought, this is so childlike.
- [23:53]
B
Yeah.
- [23:53]
A
And it's because she was never allowed a bigger worldview. Her worldview was kept so small, her education, her experiences in the world were so tiny that the most devastating thing that happened to her one year is that one of the wives wore a tight sweater and she didn't know that was available to her. Yeah. And through the book and through the show and through just being on television, she grows into having a mindset of like, oh, I could be a person in this world with thoughts and feelings of my own is so cool. But it is like an inch of growth when you compare it to other people who didn't grow up in a cult. And it really made me think of the Bachelor now in that they lock them in a house for two months, and they're like, everything revolves around this one man. And then all of a sudden, like, when Shania wants to bring up shrimp into the hot tub and you don't take one of the shrimp, it's like a fight for days because your world view is, like, so tiny. And I was just like, oh, she was on the Bachelor for 50 years of her life, and the only man.
- [24:55]
B
Oh, my God.
- [24:56]
A
In the house was Cody. And now every tiny little thing, like, who cooks what for Thanksgiving, and when is his car in what driveway? Is the only thing that matters in your tiny, tiny world this?
- [25:08]
B
You're blowing my mind right now, because you're exactly right. It's the perfect analogy. Yes. Totally right.
- [25:13]
A
Yeah. And I guess I was just like, oh, I'm so happy for her, but also like, oh, no, she hasn't gone outside enough. Okay. She has this horrible wedding. She gets to the honeymoon, which is 10 minutes after the wedding, in her living room, and she's like, what are we doing for a honeymoon? And Cody is like, I don't know.
- [25:27]
B
What.
- [25:27]
A
What do you want to do? And for their honeymoon, they, what, drive around? Which they drive around.
- [25:34]
B
I think that's all Cody does, by the way, because every, like, fifth episode is just him in the Car with a wife, and they're just going somewhere, God knows where to one of their 900 locations that they move to. I don't know. But, oh, no, that is so sad.
- [25:46]
A
I mean, then she wrote this. She said, in my original draft, I skipped from the evening remained awkward to the day after the wedding. Without going into the in between, I had a couple of women who are close to me read this, including one who lives polygamy. And they both said, you have to tell it. And I said, that's so sad, because then what she tells you is that the sex was, like, horrible and dry and lasted 30 seconds.
- [26:11]
B
Painful.
- [26:12]
A
She does. And painful. Really painful. And she doesn't know an orgasm is till everyone think in your head, how long did it take? How long did it take? Two years. Two years later, she accidentally had her first org.
- [26:25]
B
Yes.
- [26:25]
A
I think it's really sad that a woman in polygamy said you have to tell it as if it's what they all experience, which is sex is painful and bad. Do you think that's what that was?
- [26:34]
B
It has to be. You know what's interesting? It made me think that if she's ever talked about this with Janelle, I was like, yeah. Have you guys at this point ever talked about that first night? You'd think at this point it would come up as, like, a big thing.
- [26:46]
A
But, yeah, such a good point. And they're taught to not tell each other about their sex life. Like, they're supposed to be sister wives and raise each other's children and be best friends, but also, they're not supposed to talk. Well, at least in this marriage, they've decided not to talk about their sex lives with each other. However, they originally live in a trailer together, and she can hear Cody through the trailer walls having sex with Janelle and Mary. And she can hear that it sounds different than when he and her have sex. And she can hear that he doesn't want to have sex with her, but he does want to have sex with them. This is a nightmare of proportions. I can't.
- [27:24]
B
Yeah, I'm sorry.
- [27:25]
A
This broke me.
- [27:26]
B
And if you've, like, ever listened to Cody talk for more than five minutes, like, imagining whatever sounds, words that are coming out of his mouth in that moment is such a dark place to be.
- [27:37]
A
And that that's what you're aspiring to. Like, whatever you're hearing through the wall, you're like, that's better than what's happening in my room. Yeah.
- [27:45]
B
Yes.
- [27:46]
A
That's one of the saddest things I've Ever heard. And then a big part of the book is she said she had to give Cody massages in order to get him to have sex with her. And then she would ask for a massage in return and he'd say no. Or she'd ask to make out and he'd say no. And then he would always make her have sex with their garments on.
- [28:07]
B
That was so sad. That was one of the hardest parts for me to read. It was so, so deeply sad to me.
- [28:12]
A
And for years, this was her life and her belief that she, quote, wasn't being a lovable enough wife, that, like, it was her fault from, like, the way she looked or the way she acted or, like, the food she cooked until one day she stops giving Cody massages and he stops having sex with her. This is a trade I cannot get behind. You have to give your husband a full spa treatment to have his terrible, sad, non orgasmic dick for five seconds.
- [28:49]
B
Yeah.
- [28:49]
A
What is this trade off? I would stop believing in God too.
- [28:52]
B
Yeah.
- [28:52]
A
I'd be like, this can't be real. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now, and we'll be right back. Okay. Welcome back. Let's continue the conversation.
- [29:08]
B
Yeah. It's actually amazing reading the book, thinking about how long she just existed in this and thinking, like you said, that she is the problem. Like, from beginning to end, she is the problem. It just keeps you in this endless cycle of, like, I have to be better. I have to be better. I have to be better in such a dark place to be.
- [29:28]
A
Yeah. And that there's no better in life for me because I'm not even on the level of Mary and Janelle with my husband. Therefore, she couldn't even think of a life that doesn't include this. Which is why when she grows into believing, like, in herself and her worth in the book, it feels so special. Okay, I. I have to read this now. Hit him. So she starts having children, and she's going through all of the births, and apparently Cody is great. Every time she gives birth and she. She goes through every kid, she's like, that was a cute kid. That was an ugly infant. That's okay. They're cute now. This kid was cute. This kid was hideous. I'm just like, okay. And then she said of Gwendolyn, her birth was my absolute favorite. The pain never got that bad. My hips, as usual, weren't aligned. Turn on Abba. I said. I got this. They turned on Mamma Mia. And I started lip syncing. I went into transition during the song, crouched down on the floor on all fours, worked through the transition, got up, finished the song, and had her in 15 minutes. It was amazing. Also, I recently found out through DNA testing that I'm related to Meryl Streep. This is.
- [30:37]
B
This is one of the moments where I would, like, pay a lot of money to be inside the word document, where the ghostwriter, and she was leaving her comments. What alchemy of skills and talents and voice had to come together to form that scene? Because. And then it was reading it physically. The Meryl Streep line was the last line on the page. So naturally, I flipped the page and I'm like, okay, we're gonna get more on this Meryl Streep thing. No ends there. No ends right there. That was it.
- [31:07]
A
That. I mean, mamma mia, Mamma mia. Here I go again. Whoops. I had a kid. I'm related to Meryl Streep.
- [31:16]
B
That. That scene, though, encapsulates, like, Christine on the show. Like, she's a very.
- [31:20]
A
Does it.
- [31:21]
B
Okay, weird. Like the line in the book that's like, I'm not show wife anymore. Which is in reference to the not infamous nacho comment from Cody. I was like, christine wrote that, like, 100%.
- [31:37]
A
Like, she came up with that. I feel like she saw a meme about her and then was like, that's hilarious. I gotta put that in the book. I'm not your wife anymore. I mean, if I was married to a man who on television was like, I didn't wanna marry her the day I saw her eating chili cheese nachos from the gas station in my car, I think my book would be about murder. I'd be like, and here's how I murdered him using tortilla chips and hot chili sauce.
- [31:59]
B
She's in the car with your other wives and you. And let her have the nachos, sir. And you're on a diet where you eat by your blood type. I don't know if that was later. I'm like, literally, kill me.
- [32:11]
A
No. So ridiculous. Also, it really made me happy because the arc in the book is her realizing, why did you marry me? Why did you steal my chance to be happy and to be loved? And I, I. This really spoke to me because I think there's so many women brought up in this culture, as in American culture, of, like, if a man doesn't like you, it's because something's wrong with you. Which is how she feels a lot of the book. And then she realizes, just because you weren't attracted to me doesn't mean someone else wasn't. And you stole my chance for someone else to like me. You stole my chance to fall in real love. You stole my chance to feel beautiful because someone else thinks I'm beautiful. And I thought that was. I don't. I can't tell if I'm. The bar is in hell and this is like some pathetic thing I've picked up. But I. I thought it was really nice because she could have just walked away being like, I guess I'm unattractive. And instead she was like, kody Brown, you're a piece of shit. There are other people in this world who want to be with me. Yeah. I don't know.
- [33:10]
B
Yes. No. I thought those were some of the most powerful moments for sure. When she said, like, how. I think she used the word narcissistic. How narcissistic to think that you were gonna save me and you were the only man who was gonna ever want me and you were doing me a favor by, you know, making sure that I wasn't alone forever when, like, it's such bullshit. It's such bullcrap. As Robyn says I should say.
- [33:37]
A
Such bullcrap.
- [33:38]
B
Such bull crap.
- [33:40]
A
It's friggin bullcrap. Yeah. I loved that sentence where she said I. I think relationship promises can be quite narcissistic. And I thought that was something really beautiful. And even though this doesn't relate in any way, it made me think back to. I made a lot of promises to myself when I was 17 years old. Like when I was a teenager and I'd just gotten out of this hard time, I made like, promises that, like, I will always, like, if I ever get money, here's what I'll do with it. And like, if I ever get out of my eating disorder, like, here's how I'm gonna live. I made these, like, promises and I remember talking to a friend of like, I was pursuing something in my career that was like, devastating, but I was like, 17 year old me would not be okay if I put this down. And she was like, 17 year olds are wrong all the time. And like, what makes you think you need to, like, continue this promise you made to yourself as a teenager? Like, you're. You're a teenager. And I thought about that with like, oh, like, I don't know, of like, these huge, like, I made a promise to myself or I made a promise to God, or I made a promise to whatever. How narcissistic those can be that you at that moment in your life had all of the knowledge for the rest of your years and that we should adhere to that. Does that make any sense?
- [34:57]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of these. Like, the community that she grew up in kind of is built upon this idea that of, like, you know, everything you're supposed to know about the entire world by how you're raised, and it will never evolve, and there's no room for growth, and you will stay in this. This thing forever. And, yeah, that's really not how life or growth or evolution works 100%.
- [35:24]
A
And I. I guess it hit me so hard because, like, I grew up in Utah, so even though, like, I never converted to the LDS church, I think, like, some of this stuff is still in me. Some of the, like, business books, growth, your. Your infinite wisdom. You know what I mean? I. It was. It was tough to relate to Christine's memoir. Olivia. I was having a hard time. Okay, so Christine somehow gets involved in defending polygamy in, like, this group. I forget what it's called. It's like Promises Town gave me bad vibes.
- [35:56]
B
I'm just gonna say it. It was terrible vibes. It was strange. It was strange to me.
- [36:01]
A
But she repeated to us, like, the little speech she would give as if she was proud of it. So she would say monogamy, like, I want to be tied to one ball and chain. And then all the horrified people she was speaking to would laugh, and then she'd be like, I love polygamy, even though she's written an entire book about how it ruined every inch of her life. Okay, so because of that group, they end up, like, going to New York City and going on, like, a different talk show that never airs. And then this TLC producer. No, then this producer finds them and is like, I think you could be on tlc. And it kind of quickly leads to the show, and she keeps saying, we wanted to talk about polygamy and make it safer for our community for people to realize that we're just normal people. And yet, like, she does all this activism for polygamy, even though she ends up walking away from it. I mean, what did you think of that whole part of the book? That she was one of the people legally fighting to make it not a felony in Utah?
- [37:01]
B
Well, I did have, like, alarm bells go off around that. That scene, those chapters where she says some. She compares it to basically, like, the. The fight for marriage equality, for LGBTQ rights. And I was like, no, no, no, Christine. Like, that's not the same thing. Not even close. And later, she does kind of explain how she has grown from that point of view and how she's changed her views on queer people and marriage equality and all of that. Which, again, I'm like, is the bar that low that we're like, yes, good job. Like, but, you know, growth is growth. And I feel like with Christine, you've got to just celebrate it where it exists in these communities.
- [37:41]
A
But she wrote sentences in here. That feels like there's still what she believes. She said, if you decriminalize polygamy, the actual crimes of abuse can come to light. As for the adult and polygamous relationships, the grown consenting adults, why on earth does anyone else care? And I said, christine, when you are raised in a cult with no educational worldview other than you need to grow up and be in a plural marriage, does consent exist when you were 18 years old? Like, she still believes she was a consenting adult and not someone who was groomed into these decisions from birth, even though she now realizes that her life was stolen from her by thinking she should marry Kody Brown. But she'll say, like, if you're a consenting adult and want to be polygamous, then I think that should be decriminalized. And it's like, well, you're not accounting for the community that grew that decision.
- [38:38]
B
Yeah. And.
- [38:40]
A
And like, criminalizing it is what tries to get those communities to not exist. But she's like, if it's decriminalized, then people will report abuse. And, like, when men marry underage wives, and that's a very complicated political criminal issue. And I. I just. I don't know. I think a lot more nuance exists in it than she said. What did you think?
- [38:58]
B
Yeah, I. I agree with you. I mean, I think it's a lot of mental gymnastics. At one point, she, when she's talking about her grandfather and she says something like, he was advocating for the age of marriage to go from 14 to 16. I'm like, I don't really know if six. Like, are we celebrating a hero comes along? It's like, wow. And then I immediately thought of myself at 16, like, entering into a marriage, and I just was like, oh, Jesus. Like, it's. I mean, I understand that, like, the women have. Have no rights when they leave these marriages. They have no claim to anything. And that's problematic. But, like, that problem is because of polygamy. It's not because of, like, the legal statuses involved.
- [39:44]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we've talked about this on other episodes because Mormonism, I guess, comes up so frequently on this podcast, but there's a law in Utah called the Romeo and Juliet Law. And it was created to make it so that you could marry a 14 year old if you were only a little bit older than her and not too much. And then they name it the Romeo and Juliet law to be like, it's about true love. So it's okay that she's 14. And I mean, it really infiltrates culture again. Like, I. I remember I was 13 and I was like, I better get out of here because no one's gonna marry me because I'm not Mormon. But I was 13 years old and I saw my friends starting to be like, okay, you know, we're gonna be married in four or five years. Like, we'll have kids in four years. And I was like. And I was 13 being like, I'd like someone to kiss me. I better leave Utah. It ain't gonna happen here. Which again, tells you where your head's at when you are that age. Okay, so we haven't really covered Mary and Janelle, but Mary is the first wife, Janelle is the second wife. Mary and Janelle don't like each other. Christine comes in as the third wife and is like, what's up, everybody? And she's a mediator for some time. Then Robin enters the picture right when they are about to have a TLC show. And I feel like she really skipped over the part where this had to have been a huge part of the sales pitch. She's sort of like. Like, we started to get a TLC show and then decided to frame season one about this other woman, Robin, joining our lives and having this wedding. And I was like, this is the best produced season one I've ever heard of. But she sort of played it like it was all God's timing as a viewer. Like, was this. What'd you think?
- [41:27]
B
I don't know. But I did have that suspicion, too. I just thought, oh, it's convenient that he's. He's Robin's now in the picture. But it did seem like he had been dating or courting or, like, flirting on the phone with random women from church. That's right around the same time. So maybe it. I don't know, maybe everything was happening at once. And. But the producer struck gold. I mean, 20 years it's been on or whatever it is. That seems impossible.
- [41:53]
A
But yeah. Oh, yeah. So Robin is divorced, which already is. What? But in the, in the churches I grew up in, what you would have been thought of as, like, a heathen, but she's Hot. So she's. We. I really think we need to put that in context because it's, like, really hard for me to participate in Christine's conversation about Robin being the hottest woman ever. And then they're all just ladies. I don't know what to say. I don't know how they formed this hierarchy of beauty in them, but they're all just ladies.
- [42:26]
B
It's true. It's true.
- [42:29]
A
Yeah. Robyn wears jeans that fit, and it fucking blows Cody's mind. And Cody, he is so horned up for Robin, who already has kids from her previous marriage, but wants to join a plural marriage even though she'd previously been monogamous, that he starts driving down to St. George every weekend. St. George is the town I lived in for eight years. It used to be the Mormon capital of the world. More Mormons per capita than any location elsewhere. I think that has changed a bit now, but who knows? So Robyn from St. George, I said, makes sense, baby. And all of a sudden we get into these things where she's, how come? Oh, these details killed me. How come Cody takes Robin and her kids to KFC and not us?
- [43:14]
B
Yep.
- [43:15]
A
Again, the bar is in outer darkness. This man wouldn't take his other wives and children to kfc, but would get a KFC bucket for Robin. And that's how they began to know that, like, she was the chosen wife.
- [43:29]
B
Yes. That. That always gives it away, I think.
- [43:33]
A
Yeah, I think it's. She who hath been given chicken bucket shall be the most honored and favorite wife. I also want to say this is one of the other saddest paragraphs in the book. She said when she was talking about MSNBC flying them out to defend polygamy. And she said, they flew us out and put us up in a hotel and they pampered us with gift certificates to TGI Fridays and Times Square Square. Olivia, now, I love. Listen, I love the Olive Garden in Times Square. I would say it's a better Olive Garden than other Olive Gardens. I get it. But can we be saying they were pampered with a TGI Friday's gift certificate in 2025? In hindsight, she's like, they really pampered us with TGI Fridays thoughts and feelings.
- [44:21]
B
I. I mean, that's a woman who is suffering, you know, like, she. She was dealing with a lot and none of it was good. So, like, maybe she did find solace in the TG is which we've all been there at dark points, probably youy're right.
- [44:35]
A
You're right. After a life in The Bachelor Mansion. One trip to KFC or TGA Fridays would blow my fucking balls off. The other weird detail at this time is that. And I really want to hear from the cookies, who can explain this to me more? And we even have a few ex Mormons on our Patreon chat. I have named a cookie named Jaunty Dame, our ex MO correspondent. And I learned so much from her in the comments. So please get in there and say more. But even though they, Cody and their specific sect of LDS Mormonism didn't celebrate Easter and often wouldn't celebrate Christmas because they were thought of as like, I don't know, pagan holidays, they decided to celebrate all of the Jewish holidays because Cody said that brought them closer to Jesus. So Christine was having Shabbat dinner, which I really wish I could see that. Like, was she not using electricity for 24 hours? Because I feel like, no, they weren't this, like, were they.
- [45:38]
B
This confused me.
- [45:39]
A
Were they doing all the ceremonies? Like, I don't think so.
- [45:43]
B
I don't remember seeing this on the show. Now, it's possible I missed an episode or it was in the early seasons, but, like, I kind of thought they were Christmas, Easter. I probably would have guessed, but I. Wrong, apparently. Wrong.
- [45:54]
A
No, I guess they celebrated Rosh Hashanah, but not Christmas. And I just like, as you know, I have. I have dear friends of mine who are Jewish. Knowing how they celebrate these holidays, I was like, I've not seen that on Sister Wives. Like, what version of this was Cody celebrating? And then I guess one thing that makes it really sad is then when Robin comes into the picture, they stop having Shabbat dinner, I guess because he's only going to KFC with Robin and they're not. They're not celebrating Jewish holidays anymore once Robin arrives. It was really confusing.
- [46:23]
B
It's very confusing. And then there was something about Robin doing like a Bible verse Easter egg hunt at some point. But I was. It was very confusing. I.
- [46:32]
A
It's a very confusing sect of Mormonism that she is celebrating. And I know they're from a. They're not flds, which is fundamentalist Latter Day Saint. They are Apostolic United Brethren. Okay, so it's a sect of the Mormon Church. So I guess, I guess the rules are just like whatever Daddy says. And Daddy Cody was like, no, Easter. And then, yes, Easter.
- [46:55]
B
The drinking is also interesting to me actually, because that comes up quite a bit. And I was like, well, wait, why do you guys. Does Cody drink? Like, is his. Does he have an alcohol based on his blood Type that he drinks. It's okay.
- [47:09]
A
Do you remember what blood type? He was like, was he the. The only one I know is type O, where you eat meat.
- [47:15]
B
He's the same as Cristine. That's all I know. Cause she says. And she's like, I don't really know if I believe in it, but we were eating more vegetables, so that was good. I was like, okay, we're not gonna explore that. Deeper tracks.
- [47:24]
A
And here's what's sad for me, being a millennial woman. Then I know that they are probably type A because that's when you eat more vegetables. Because did I look up that diet and be like, should I do the blood type diet? Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Yeah. Yes. She just suddenly writes this. They're again, fully doing a polygamist religious TLC show about living religiously in polygamy. And she writes, I started drinking mojitos after stressful press days. Okay, first off, that is not an easy cocktail to make. You are grinding sugar. We are bringing in Cuban flavors. You got to get fresh mints. Like, what do you mean? Your first cocktail ever is a mojito. The fuck are you talking about?
- [48:07]
B
Yeah.
- [48:07]
A
Then she said, then I realized I like Moscow Mules as well. Again, this is not a crayon. This is not a vodka crayon. A Moscow Mule usually has its own copper cup. Like, she went to some cocktail bar. That blew her mind. Like, where did. Was this in Chili's? Like, what do we think?
- [48:24]
B
Probably they do have good cocktails.
- [48:28]
A
She said it took the edge off of those tough days. Yes. Mormons, fundamentalists, and otherwise don't drink alcohol. Except when we're stressed to the point of eye twitching and realize a beer would be awesome on a hot day. Yeah.
- [48:44]
B
I. I do have to say, the image of Christine, like, leaving the confessional tapings and, like, walking the two blocks to her house and then just cracking open a Michelob Ultra was, like, really delightful to me for some reason. Reason. And I was like, good for you that you have that. Also, like, how much is the Michelobe Ultra taking the edge off? I don't think it's.
- [49:05]
A
It sounded like a lot because, I mean, she qualified the drinking so much that I was like, oh, there's an issue here. Because she would be like, I got wasted for me. Don't worry. Three glasses of chardonnay. And I said, christine finally discovered alcohol and had the time of her goddamn life.
- [49:21]
B
It's true.
- [49:22]
A
Yeah. I mean, it got her through her marriage to Kody Brown. It sounds like, and all. But still, all the drama in her life is like, I wasn't allowed to kiss Cody when I was dating Cody because he was a married man. But when he was a married man, Robin kissed him. And then she had a certain type of ring, and I didn't get that ring, and she got to pick out her ring, and I didn't get to pick up my ring, and my ring didn't have a diamond. But then he got her ring, a diamond. So then I threw my ring into the forest.
- [49:48]
B
There's a lot of. So I was like, oh, content. How much was the word ring used, do you think? Because I. 200 times.
- [49:55]
A
I say huge props to her ghostwriter who labeled a chapter Cody Brown, Lord of the Rings. I said, at least. At least we're owning it.
- [50:04]
B
True. Yeah. If you want to know what the book is like, that's probably a great description.
- [50:09]
A
Yeah. And then things change. Things get wild. There's a lot of drama. But after a lifetime of her needing help with all of her children, with Cody and him saying, no, I'm too busy to help you ask your sister why he gets Robin a nanny. And I mean, this. That would be insane. That would feel insane to me as a sister wife if. If she got a nanny.
- [50:36]
B
And then.
- [50:37]
A
And I guess if you watch the show, this is iconic, but for me, I still have trouble processing it, which is that Christine makes a T shirt that says, but what does the nanny do? And then she wears it to work out. I mean, this is a woman who isn't allowed to drink coffee, who has gone to a printing press or has ordered on Zazzle. But what does the nanny do?
- [51:01]
B
And this is before the divorce. I'm like, was that not the time that you could have been, like, time to step away? But it's. I don't know. I have a lot of complicated feelings about how much the issues from all of the wives just go back to Robin and almost miss Cody entirely sometimes. And to be clear, like, he is a monster, as I've said, and Robin is her own, you know, like, bucket of issues. But, I mean, Cody is the core of the issues here. It all goes back to him. And, like, if we would have focused on that and maybe not Robin all the time, I don't know, maybe she would have left earlier.
- [51:40]
A
Yeah. I also think the system.
- [51:44]
B
She.
- [51:44]
A
It's the system's fault. It's the system of patriarchal polygamy and the system of a cult and the system of not being able to access outside education, and she half acknowledges that in the book and half defends it. I mean, she's just still midway on this journey. And you're right. It so much goes to being jealous of Robyn that years pass in the book where she's unhappy and hates Cody and finds a reason to leave him and stays for. For years. Yeah, she just stays year after year after year. What's wild is that the book begins with her mom divorcing her father and leaving the religion. And begin. Because she was raised in this cult, she's like, I'm not gonna talk to my mom. She's a horrible person. Finally brings her mom back into her life slowly, and then follows her mom exact path in life after a lifetime of judging her for it.
- [52:42]
B
Yep.
- [52:42]
A
Wasn't that wild? I wish there had been more of a literary arc tying her and her mom together, more as these two women who lived in the dark for so long but also found their way out, but seemingly separately.
- [52:58]
B
Yeah.
- [52:58]
A
Do you know what I mean? Like, her mom didn't get her out, and. And she also didn't follow her mom's path for, like, 25 years.
- [53:05]
B
Yeah. And what does she do for the entire book? Praise her father as, like, completely perfect. In fact, in the photos, I noticed there's a photo of her and her dad, but not a photo of her and her mom, I'm pretty sure.
- [53:16]
A
Oh, yeah. In the dedication, which is the first sentence of the book, she said to dad, for being my hero, I'm still a daddy's girl. And I said, yeah, you were a polygamist. We know. That's clear.
- [53:30]
B
Did she not thank her mom?
- [53:33]
A
She says to my mom, Annie, for helping me find my strength. Which is a wildly different sentence to for being my hero. I'm still a daddy's girl.
- [53:44]
B
Yeah. And in the. In the.
- [53:45]
A
You know what I mean?
- [53:46]
B
In the scenes with her dad, it's always like, okay. He's, like, literally looking at you, and you're like, he really changed my life in that moment. And I'm like, this is. Explains so much. This explains so much. And like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [54:00]
A
I. I mean, then I will say the book, it moves fast towards the end, but also maybe loses some layers or depth because then she talks about how one of the children, Leon, is trans, and she's so proud of their journey. And Gwendolyn, her biological daughter, even though they kind of think of all of their children, each of the wives, children with Cody is all of their children, they each have their own children. Gwendolyn is hers. And Gwendolyn comes out as bisexual. And I know you were talking earlier about, like, being like, the bar is so low, like, she loves them and, like, why are we praising that? But I couldn't believe it because the LGBTQ community is treated so horribly, especially in Utah, and especially in that religion. For example, in mid October, the LDS church elected a new president who is known for his traditionalist beliefs on marriage and religious freedom. And he actually said in 2022 that social and legal pressure would not influence the church to change its posture on same sex marriage and matters of gender identity, which is that it's, like, wrong and a sin. That's from the AP News.
- [55:14]
B
And.
- [55:15]
A
And so it's just like this is not, you know, distinctly not what the church believes and in years previously had even more of a vicious stance, as if the current stance isn't vicious enough. And so I think to be upholding polygamy and some of the faith, but to fully have children who are LGBTQ and support them, I actually thought that was incredible growth. I don't know. I don't know how. How did the viewers see it? Like, how was it taken on the show?
- [55:43]
B
Well, I think the, like, Brown family experience with, like, queer people in general, really the first entry point is when Leon comes out as gay, and every person has a very different reaction. And actually, I remember the most positive, like, warm, supportive reaction being Robin, which was really surprising.
- [56:05]
A
Yep, absolutely. And Leon came out as trans in 2022.
- [56:10]
B
I don't how much of that was shown on screen, if any. It seems like Lyanna has distanced themselves quite a bit from the family or.
- [56:18]
A
From that with Drac.
- [56:20]
B
I mean, I don't know why. And I think all of them have sort of been supportive in their own kind of weird ways. But I found the chapter to be quite beautiful, even if I had complicated thoughts about how she talked about the queer community in the beginning. And I also think that, like, these are the moments when actual change happens with people who are maybe more conservative or have held sort of antiquated beliefs about these things. And you see someone who was also raised in that and is changing, and then it makes it feel possible in a way that I don't think it did before. So I give her props for that as well.
- [56:55]
A
It is Robyn showing up in a tight sweater and realize, you can wear one too. But I'm serious, it's like she would write things like, I didn't even know that was possible. And it's like, yes, it is possible to be religious and accept everyone and not have hate in your heart for other identities. And, like, that's a thing she realizes, which is pretty special. And I gotta say, I love that they're like, we're Mormons. And then they're blowing up their own beliefs nationally, being like, we can't live like this. Yeah, it's impossible. We can't support our children like this. And it's cool to see that change happen, even though I'm sure it was extremely difficult and she's still behind in many ways. Well, then we get into a section that I actually was laughing so hard, I was like, God, I want to write a TV show with this type of humor so badly, because. And I think she knows how funny she was being, but she's like, we lived in Las Vegas, and all of a sudden, Cody, Cody Brown was really afraid of the Raiders. He's like, the Raiders are building a stadium. The Raiders are coming to Vegas. It's gotta be so unsafe here. The traffic. The Raiders are coming. We gotta get out of Vegas. The Raiders are coming.
- [57:57]
B
Oh, this killed me. I was laughing so hard. I don't know. It just. Just. I. It's so Cody. It's so Cody. If you watch the show, you're like, yep. Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense. Well, it does once we find out, really, why he wanted to move. But.
- [58:12]
A
And listen, you can be a stepdad without being a stepdad. That is stepdad energy. Being afraid of the football team moving to town because they're building a stadium and you got to move the family out, that is stepdad energy. And he moves them all to Flagstaff under the guise of being afraid of the Raiders, only to surprise them with the fact that Robin's child got into University of Arizona. And Robin wants to be closer to her kids. And so he moves Christine and Janelle away from their kids. I think at this point, Mary, his first wife, has had a falling out with him when he, what, legally divorced her so that he could legally marry Robin and adopt her children, even though Mary was still supposed to remain his wife.
- [58:47]
B
Oh, Mary.
- [58:49]
A
Oh, Mary. I can't even get into that. And then Covid hits.
- [58:52]
B
Oh.
- [58:53]
A
And when Covid hits and they have to quarantine, and I guess Covid turns Cody and Robyn even more nutsome. They all realize their unhappiness and how bad things are as they're living on this lot where Cody wants to build a Cody mansion. I've never watched the show, and I remember seeing clips of, like, this house he showed them plans for, and all the wives were like, we don't want to live with you.
- [59:17]
B
Oh, yeah. On this giant piece of. Is that how that went? Coyote pass, I believe is what it's called.
- [59:21]
A
That's right.
- [59:22]
B
Yes. This is a through line for, like, I feel like a decade of television at this point. I kind of want to go. I joked that, like, I want to them someone to buy it and build, like, a sister wives theme park on that.
- [59:34]
A
Genius.
- [59:35]
B
Yeah. And they're.
- [59:35]
A
That is such a money maker.
- [59:37]
B
Only nachos.
- [59:38]
A
Only nachos are sold. You get to live in your own trailer. And we will play sex noises through the wall of other people having a better time than you.
- [59:47]
B
Yep. Mm. Yep. No massages allowed for anyone. Just as no massage.
- [59:52]
A
Or you can go to the Cody massage spa, where you get a massage, but then you have to have sex for 30 seconds.
- [59:59]
B
Gift shop with just those Irish rings. Just that.
- [60:03]
A
Oh, my God. What are those rings were all over my middle school. Like, it was such a big deal to have one of those rings with the heart. Yeah.
- [60:10]
B
Are they even Irish?
- [60:11]
A
Okay. I thought that's where those rings came from. Wait a minute. Let me look it up. Clara ring. Are they not Irish?
- [60:17]
B
I think they. I don't.
- [60:18]
A
Yes. It's a traditionally Irish ring with three primary features. A heart to represent love, a crown to represent loyalty. And I remember girls that. I mean, middle school would wear them and then turn them upside down when they were, like, talking to a boy, and it was, like, a big deal. But this is an Irish ring that they went and were just like, this is part of Mormon culture now.
- [60:38]
B
Just take it. It's just white people. It's fine.
- [60:41]
A
Listen, there's a few things that are Mormon, okay? Irish rings, Shabbat dinner, and DNA tests that link you to famous celebrities like Jen Affleck supposedly being Ben Affleck's cousin, and Christine Brown Woolley being related to Meryl Streep. Christine. On what DNA testing site did Meryl Streep pop up? This is impossible.
- [61:04]
B
I pictured her on 23andMe, and I'm like, is Meryl Streep just out here on, like, one of these services, just popping in like, it doesn't make any sense to me.
- [61:13]
A
That doesn't make any sense. Also, if you listen to this podcast a lot, you're gonna roll your eyes because you've heard me say this before. But, Olivia, did you know that Mormons are the ones who own Ancestry.com and Mormons are the one who started DNA genetic testing site, and the actual LDS Church owns, like, Family Ancestry.com because Mormons were scrapbookers and genealogists. And so they would write down the lineage of every family member and every cousin. And they were the ones keeping track of family history. And they are the ones behind our DNA sites, which is why when you do your DNA on those sites, do know that it was a Mormon inclined scientist who let you know what country you were from.
- [61:52]
B
Did anyone warn Meryl Streep is my question before?
- [61:55]
A
Because, yeah, I'm sure Meryl Streep uploaded her photo onto 23 and me and was like, come and find me distant relatives and ask for money. Zero.
- [62:05]
B
I just zero background on that. But maybe one day we'll find out.
- [62:09]
A
I guarantee. I actually know it. I'm ready to say it, even though I don't. I know nothing. It's. There's some like third or fourth, fifth cousin removed up on one of those sides saying they're related to Meryl. And then Christine was like seven cousins away from them and was like, look at my family tree.
- [62:25]
B
Are there fact checkers in these? I mean, absolutely not.
- [62:29]
A
Okay, so then my favorite part of the book is when she teams up with what? Janelle. She teams up with who? Janelle, her sister wife who is currently married to Cody Brown to help her come up with a plan to leave Kody Brown.
- [62:45]
B
Brown.
- [62:46]
A
Now that's some sister wife. She was like, here, let me help you divorce this man that I'm still suffering with.
- [62:51]
B
Yep.
- [62:52]
A
True sisterhood. Yep. And she makes a plan to leave, which includes, like, saving money. Small steps of independence. I thought it was a really important part of the book of, like, when you are a woman with no legal options because she was in a polygamous marriage with no rights to finances, with no bank accounts. How do you actually leave a trad wife culture when you seemingly don't have options for power and financial independence? And I thought it was really cool that she included it.
- [63:19]
B
Yeah, I totally agree. And this is one of the, like, more detailed parts that I didn't really pick up on on the show, but it really speaks to just. Janelle is so smart and she's so savvy and she's so strong and independent. And I can't wait to read her book too. But I love their weird little friendship.
- [63:39]
A
Yeah. And Janelle is the bookkeeper. Janelle is finally like, hey, girl, you know that money you give us? Like, it's going to Robin and Cody. And it's like, but Janelle, you're the bookkeeper. Why didn't you say something earlier?
- [63:49]
B
That's a good Point.
- [63:51]
A
And then there's really confusing things in the book where Christine is like, my daughter had to have a surgery, so I had to pay off that $50,000 surgery before I could save money to leave Kody Brown. And I was like, I'm sorry. Wait a minute. So when you're a polygamist wife, your husband doesn't pay for your children's surgeries with you? Like, this was her debt.
- [64:11]
B
He doesn't go to the surgeries either, as we've discovered.
- [64:15]
A
Yeah, that was a big part of the book. Yeah. I don't know.
- [64:17]
B
The money was very murky to me throughout the whole book, but maybe that's the point.
- [64:21]
A
Well, and there. I mean, at one point, this woman has a paper route.
- [64:24]
B
Yes.
- [64:25]
A
She's like, I've got a paper route. I work. I work at an automobile shop. I work at a library. I work at a school. She's clearly in, like, 19 MLMs. Throughout the book. She keeps saying, like, I sell fashion clothing with Mary.
- [64:38]
B
We haven't even talked about plexus or the MLM shit now I think it's called. It's like this juice that they sell. It's, like, supposed to make you lose weight, Right. In addition to the calories.
- [64:50]
A
Why did you put that in the diet section?
- [64:51]
B
Exactly.
- [64:53]
A
Well, you're missing out on sales.
- [64:56]
B
Legal reasons, maybe. I don't know.
- [64:59]
A
Wow. Yeah. So I think that is another thing that I thought growing up was really special to my family in that my stepdad got involved in an MLM for a long time. That was a huge part of my childhood. Growing UP was an MLM only to get out and realized it is, like, 90% of Utah's industry. And that's shocking to me still. Like, MLMs really flock to Utah. And I think also they prey on, you know, working from home. You don't have to have an education. And also, MLMs work by bringing all your friends and family in. Who has a lot of friends and family? Christine Brown Woolley.
- [65:34]
B
A lot.
- [65:34]
A
Who's like, sometimes we marry a cousin, you know, so I bet you can sell them some plexi.
- [65:39]
B
Yeah.
- [65:39]
A
So then she starts to leave. She's already drinking alcohol. She just is kind of like, even though I've been teaching this in church a long time, I don't think I believe the church leaves the church. Still married to Cody. I don't know how Cody came last. Like, Cody was the last thing she left. And so she wasn't living as a Mormon for many years while still. Still being married to Cody, which I think it makes a powerful statement as to how much power a patriarchal marriage has over you. Given that she had the strength to leave her entire faith community. Yeah, right.
- [66:11]
B
Yes.
- [66:11]
A
But then all of a sudden she's like, I'm leaving. I slowly moved Cody out of my bedroom. It's something that happened on television that everyone saw. And then way too fast, she meets a man named David. She was never divorced, so she, she was never married, so she never has to get divorced. And so she's just one day a single lady. And she said the day she screamed outside her house when Cody walked away was her day of divorce. To the point that like nine months later, her child was like, are you and dad still married? And she's like, nah, I decided nine months ago I wasn't. Yes.
- [66:44]
B
I felt really uncomfortable with like the way truly found out. And I mean, I'm sure there's no perfect way to do that. Right. But like, it. I wish there was a little more time. You know, she was, you know, just like sitting in her, like, Janelle is starting a flower farm and living by herself and is like, I don't know if I'll ever get married. It's like, I think you need some time to yourself, Christine. Like you need to be alone on a trail somewhere. Alone.
- [67:11]
A
Yeah. Christine needed an eat, pray, love, but instead of pray, massage an eat, massage, love.
- [67:19]
B
Yes.
- [67:20]
A
But I think, yeah, I think the stuff with the kids is pretty uncomfortable. But again, it always reminded me of like a baby raising a baby.
- [67:27]
B
Yeah.
- [67:27]
A
And even in the acknowledgments she said, I want to thank these couples for showing me what true love looks like. And she's listing her children and their partners. I. And I said, oh, you're the parents. Don't do that to your children.
- [67:40]
B
Yeah. One thing I actually thought about a lot was you kind of mentioned this. She talks about how when she's pregnant with each of her children, she like adapted to their personality traits. It just felt like her whole identity was this baby. Which makes sense because that's all, that's all she had. And that's how she measured her value as a person.
- [67:58]
A
Well, and I think that's how her community measured her value.
- [68:00]
B
Yes.
- [68:01]
A
Like you had more value when you were having children because what it makes another Mormon follower, as the church stated.
- [68:08]
B
Yes. And also the part where she's Tony, her son in law is saying, like, you should get laid. I'm like, what are these conversations happening? Like you should get laid but not married, maybe to Tony.
- [68:18]
A
Yeah.
- [68:19]
B
Like, could get laid. But I don't know.
- [68:21]
A
But, like, she really is a teenager having her first mojito and a boy at school is like, have you been getting laid? Except it's like, her daughter's husband.
- [68:31]
B
Yeah.
- [68:31]
A
And she's like, isn't that crazy? Tony said I should get out there. And it's like, no. It's also sad, but she gets online and does online dating. As a famous TLC reality star, polygamous, religious ex wife. I was kind of proud of her. I was, like, sad. Like, I didn't want her to be online, but I was also like, well, it takes balls.
- [68:53]
B
I guess it does. Especially when you have been publicly humiliated by your husband and called unattractive repeatedly. And you've basically had to tell the nation that your husband has no interest in having sex with you whatsoever.
- [69:10]
A
Yeah. Which is why you're going to leave your religion, because you don't want to have a sexless life forever. Yeah.
- [69:16]
B
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I'm sure it took a lot.
- [69:19]
A
No. And. And it's. I mean, she meets this guy David almost immediately. David is polygamist adjacent. His sisters were polygamist wives, but he's not. But he has eight children, but he has a motorcycle. That's kind of what I took from this. As someone who. Who's seen David on screen. What? Explain David, please.
- [69:41]
B
Monotone. A very specific voice. I will say. I would be so fascinated if you watch, because how she describes him in the book does not match how he is on screen. How he is on screen. It's like. I would say it's like the personality.
- [69:57]
A
Of a Ritz cracker.
- [69:58]
B
It's like, there's not a lot going on, but, like. Like, I understand how it feels so.
- [70:03]
A
Much better than Cody. You're like, well, I've been eating dog shit, so I guess a Ritz cracker is going to be a little nicer.
- [70:09]
B
Cody is so deeply atrocious.
- [70:12]
A
Yeah.
- [70:13]
B
I worry for her because I just think anything was so great. Like, anyone who wants to love her and kiss her and touch her is, like, just out of this world. Incredible. I don't know. He seems nice enough, but, like.
- [70:25]
A
Yeah, I mean, I. I am also worried. I mean, we're on page 271. There's, like, 20 pages left. And David gets introduced. This is the class classic memoir Curse. I am for sure worried. However, I feel like I have and have been this person, and I have friends who are like, when am I ever gonna find someone? And it's just like, if Christine Woolley Brown, the polygamist with 10 children who was called unattractive for 20 years, who escaped a faith can find someone. There's someone for everyone. Here's what I want to read, though, because I just want to read this. Okay. So she said, this time I was ready for romance. I wanted to feel all the tingly, Twitter painted, tickly feelings. My yellow toweled self wanted her fairy tale. She used to wear a yellow towel as a veil as a child Anyways, she said we went to see the Little Mermaid. First off, where are we that the Little Mermaid's being played?
- [71:22]
B
Is this like Disney on ice or.
- [71:24]
A
Yeah, like, what is this, like a new 3D laser release? I don't know. Okay.
- [71:29]
B
So she. Maybe it's like the live action. I don't.
- [71:32]
A
Okay. She said they played Kiss the Girl, which would. You're like, yeah, that. That song's in the movie when she says they played Kiss the Girl. Yeah, maybe this was like community theater production. Okay. Our producer Christina did track down that it was the Hale Center Theater's production of the Little Mermaid musical. And this was November 2022, and the production ran in Utah, which. Love that Christina tracked down that it was a live action musical. And I love that it came across in the book. Okay. So I guess they're in a place surrounded by people and Christine said, here it comes. I've been waiting years. Never gonna do a first kiss at the altar again. This had better knock my socks off. I puckered up in my mind in preparation. This would be the perfect moment. Reader. He didn't kiss me. So she went on a date to the Little Mermaid. And when Kiss the Girl played, she was expecting David to kiss her, and he didn't kiss her. This is. This is a child.
- [72:43]
B
Yeah.
- [72:43]
A
And I see that in a loving way. Like, this is someone who. Yeah, only had one kiss at the altar and. And kind of lives in fairytale land. So then she said, she went to his house the next night and she said, I'm going to tell you how my day went and how I'm feeling. But before I tell you all this, are you going to put me in the friend zone? What? He said, are you going to friend zone me if I tell you everything and if I really open up to you because I come with a lot? I said, no. He said, I suppose I could have stopped there, but I was on a roll because you didn't kiss me on our date. I said, I know. He said, I could tell you wanted to be kissed, but it was Kiss the girl. I Don't know what your deal is. Sing with me now. I wasn't raised that way. He said, I'm a gentleman and I don't kiss women on the second date. Oh, I've lived my whole life being a gentleman. He said, I'm just gonna continue doing that. Okay. But the song says kiss the girl. Okay. You'll have to show me you're attracted to me. Because if you're not and we're just me friends and I need to know. I said you. He said, don't be shy. Are so damn sexy. My heart settled down and sped up at the same time. Was this what I wanted? I felt like all my nerve endings had lost their anchors. I told him all my stuff, all my horrible, rotten stuff. And then I got up to leave and he kissed me. He knocked my flippers straight out of the water. Besotted, enchanted, twitterpated. He called me as I drove home and said exactly the perfect things. I lost my brain.
- [74:05]
B
What I will say is that scene has more chemistry than they have on screen. Green. So make of that what you will.
- [74:14]
A
That was the worst romance fanfiction.
- [74:17]
B
Okay, well, you shouldn't I've ever read. Don't they. He comes off as like so different than on the TV show. It's on the tv. Yeah.
- [74:26]
A
But also in her brain. Kiss the Girl was the song he should have kissed her to.
- [74:31]
B
Well, she's also like sitting with her 12 year old daughter at home being like, we've never lived with a boy before.
- [74:39]
A
Oh, yeah. Even though you've had a father your whole life.
- [74:42]
B
Yeah. And I actually, I do worry for truly a little bit too. Like what a wild ride.
- [74:47]
A
I'm extremely worried for all the children because we have to talk about something very, very dark that is briefly mentioned at the very end, which is one of their children, Janelle and Cody's child Garrison, dies by suicide. And almost nothing is given to that or talked about their life on reality TV as a child. Their religion, their faith, what led to it, mental health, support. Really nothing is given. It's just something that happens. And in the epilogue, I mean it's clear she really loves Janelle. I think that is the true love story of the book is her and Janelle. I love a female best friendship. And she comes together for Janelle and she talks about how she can't wait for Janelle to write her memoir. But then this is how the entire book ends. And it's in the epilogue. But she said, this is Janelle speaking, quote, I'm waiting for my David, you told me thinking about the day you'll find him brings tears to my eyes. So does thinking about the day you'll find you. And so it's kind of sweet because it's, it's ending the book on like you're gonna find yourself Janelle on your flower farm. But also it's so. It's. It's wishing a David for Janelle before she can finally be happy. Which is to wish a Ritz cracker man for a woman's best ending.
- [76:02]
B
I, I feel like Ritz cracker was actually the wrong. Because it's like Ritz are so buttery.
- [76:06]
A
I'd get down with a Ritz. Ritz are so a lot of salt.
- [76:08]
B
Maybe I'm thinking like a saltine or like one of those stone salts are great.
- [76:13]
A
Okay, a stone water maybe. No, those are good too.
- [76:17]
B
Like a commune.
- [76:18]
A
What about like a brand. A brand cereal. Our producer says Melba toast. Yeah, like a grape nuts before sugar or something. I don't know. Is he just like a zero points Weight Watchers bar that she's talking about on in the book? I don't know.
- [76:33]
B
Yes, he's. If you know, you know, if you've watched, you know.
- [76:36]
A
Yeah. Well, and then I will say the very last page of the book is a recipe. Can you explain to me why. Listen, I don't cook. I'm very bad at cooking. Even I can read this recipe and be like, this doesn't belong in print.
- [76:49]
B
It's.
- [76:50]
A
It's really just like cornstarch, cocoa powder, some eggs and vanilla and then put it in a pie crust and it's called chocolate pie have heaven in the.
- [76:58]
B
Book it is mentioned one time.
- [77:00]
A
I didn't know if it was a big thing on the show or something like her chocolate pie will knock your socks off.
- [77:04]
B
I mean I've watched probably 95% of all episodes and that doesn't ring a bell to me. So now the nachos recipe would have, I think been.
- [77:13]
A
Oh my God. She should have been left like you go to the 7:11 off of I95 now. They always make a hot nacho at 7:30 in the morning.
- [77:23]
B
Oh my God, I can't. The nachos.
- [77:25]
A
The book should have been titled Nacho Wife. That would have been iconic.
- [77:30]
B
It stopped me in my tracks.
- [77:32]
A
Okay, it is time for us to do the booktal test. Three questions. We're each gonna answer all three of them. First question, was the author vulnerable in the sharing of their truth?
- [77:41]
B
I will say yes. But I did want a little more can you say that? I don't know. It feels so wrong. Because of course, of course, so much for her, what she has done. But I did want a little more.
- [77:54]
A
I'm giving her a full yes. For someone who thinks the epitome of romance is kissing. To kiss the girl at the Little Mermaid when you are 57, I think this was it. I think this was it. I don't know, like if that is peak romance. I think this might be peak vulnerability. I think we reached the borders. Okay, second question. Was it entertaining to read?
- [78:14]
B
It was, but it's not as entertaining as the show, which is tough.
- [78:17]
A
Cause the show also moves pretty slow.
- [78:19]
B
Yeah, I mean, the last season when Janelle says F you to Cody, like if I could just have that clip playing as like a sort of hype, hype song in all my big life moments, I would succeed in everything, I think.
- [78:30]
A
But okay, I'm sorry. At our amusement park on Coyote Pass, the DJ only plays a remix of Janelle saying fuck you to coach, please.
- [78:39]
B
I would go. I would pay any amount of money. What about. Did you enjoy it?
- [78:43]
A
I found it so entertaining. Cause I knew nothing. So I just read 19 seasons through one wife's bitter perspective. That's how I want all history. I want all history through a recent ex wife who's looking back on 20 years and giving you all the hottest goss. But I did think, like, I bet if there's anyone who watches the show, this book was probably pretty boring.
- [79:04]
B
There was one big reveal that we didn't get to that I think is important to mention, which there is a. Or at least it was a reveal to me. But a huge plot line of the last five years has been Cody's obsession with COVID and like the strict guidelines that he enacted basically so he could just quarantine for 3, 4, 5 years with his preferred family. And Robyn. I mean, this man was obsessive to the point where he severed relationships with all of Janelle's children. Cause he had such strict rules. And in the book, Christine confirms that though he was so obsessive, he is not vaccinated because it was the equivalent of putting. Putting the virus in your body. And he didn't want to do that. And I was like this man on his conspiracy YouTube channel. It's just the hypocrisy knows no bounds.
- [79:49]
A
Wow. Yeah. I did not know enough to know that was a reveal. For me, it made sense. I said, oh, the crazy man, I suspect who mistreated his four wives and is a literal idiot doesn't believe in the vaccine. Wow.
- [80:00]
B
I suspect it, but I'm like, my dude, you talked about this for five years straight on your show, and you never once had the balls to be like. And I chose not to get vaccinated, like, because I'm an idiot. But anyway.
- [80:12]
A
Can I tell you, though, how fulfilling it is that this man, who is supposed to benefit most from a polygamous culture, used Covid to desperately be monogamous with the woman he loves? Like, have you ever seen, like, a greater. A greater plan for polygamy doesn't work than Kody Brown using Covid to live. Live with one woman? It's so funny.
- [80:40]
B
It is so funny. To me. It is. Yeah.
- [80:43]
A
And then he got Covid and wanted Janelle to fly home from California to go to the CVS for him, and Janelle said no.
- [80:50]
B
He was like, it's the mo. The darkest moment of my life. I'm like, dude, shut the fuck up.
- [80:54]
A
Okay, final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?
- [81:00]
B
You know what? I feel like anytime I read a story of a woman who. Who is choosing to do something different than what society has told her she should do, I think it adds something to my life, especially if that woman happens to be related to Meryl Streep. So, no.
- [81:17]
A
No.
- [81:18]
B
I think, you know, as many issues as I have with wanting it to go deeper on some levels and seeing a little more growth, I think what she did is very brave and very, very difficult and painful. And I am happy that she is happy with David.
- [81:31]
A
Happy that she is happy with her man made of Wonder Bread.
- [81:34]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [81:34]
A
Her toast man. Her toast without butter, man.
- [81:36]
B
Safe toast man.
- [81:37]
A
Safe toast man. Yeah. I gotta tell you, this book did elevate my life. And it is what theme of the podcast? It's a theme of the podcast where her entire childhood, she lives in shame and secrecy, hiding from the outside world that she is a polygamist because she is taught that they'll be in danger if they share who they really are. But that means she lives double lives and keeps everything a secret and never knows what's possible for her because she was holding all this shame. And so when she gets free and starts the journey to be who she's supposed to be is when she breaks the silence on her shame and shares on national television that she is a polygamist. And even though that's something she doesn't ultimately, like, believe in by the end of the book. Book. It's just that same old lesson that I learned on this Podcast every time, which is that the thing that you're ashamed of and the secret that you're keeping will only get healed when you start to share it and you can only heal it when you start to talk about it, which is what also the lesson of K pop demon hunters. You know, this lesson just be everywhere. But I thought it was really interesting that keeping her religion a secret probably stopped her from growing for many, many years. And talking about her religion, even under the guise of being proud of it, is what helps her get free of it.
- [82:54]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [82:56]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Olivia, tell everyone. Your podcast is so famous in the book community, no one is listening to this who doesn't know Bad on Paper. But talk about bad on paper and talk about your upcoming book and all the things.
- [83:07]
B
Oh well, thank you. That's so nice. Yeah, Bad on Paper comes out every Wednesday wherever you listen to podcasts. It is a bookish lifestyle podcast. We talk a lot about books, but also also pop culture, what we're obsessed with currently. And I'd love to see you guys there. I don't know how to translate that.
- [83:24]
A
Yeah, yeah. And can. Can people pre order your book yet?
- [83:27]
B
Yes, my book Little One comes out in February. Pre ordering is the most helpful way to support authors and I like to describe it as sort of like a fictionalized exploration of the cult part of diet, wellness and health culture. So it ties in a lot of what we've talked about today. Today.
- [83:45]
A
Oh my God, I cannot wait to read it. Thank you so much for coming on and being my real life friend. Even though we still haven't met in person, but now we will one day as we build our empire, we have to have a sister wives amusement park and retire.
- [84:00]
B
This is going to be our project. I'm so excited and I can use your. Your knowledge of Utah. Although I don't think Coyote Pass is there. Anyway, thank you so much. This has been a joy.
- [84:09]
A
Arizona. Arizona is Utah too. It'll be be great. Okay, thanks Olivia and see you guys in the comments. A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and every plate. We will link to those brands in the show notes. Go check them out. Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes. And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon sign up. There's a free tier you can join. Leave a comment chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the book club continuing over there. And now, a scary story brought to you by Instacart. Saturday was busy, but now it's Sunday, so you're rotting bed. And that's when you start to smell something rotten, and it's not you. You follow the smell to the laundry room where you find a full pile of laundry and an empty container of detergent. Panic sets in. But then you open Instacart and order everything you need to get your life back together delivered in as fast as 30 minutes for one less Sunday. Scary. We're here.