Documentary Book Club - Lilith Fair: Building a Mystery

Summary

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Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast

Episode: Documentary Book Club – Lilith Fair: Building a Mystery
Host: Chelsea Devontes
Guest: Jana Schmieding
Date: November 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Glamorous Trash delivers a lively, thoughtful book club-style deep dive into the Hulu documentary "Lilith Fair: Building a Mystery." Host Chelsea Devontes and returning guest Jana Schmieding – a self-described "Lilith Fair girly," writer, comedian, and podcaster – dissect the history, legacy, and cultural impact of the iconic all-women 1990s music festival founded by Sarah McLachlan.

The discussion traverses the festival’s radical vision, the gender politics of the music industry, issues around representation and diversity, and the resonance of Lilith Fair’s ethos today. Laced with nostalgia, humor, frankness, and pop culture insight, this conversation both celebrates Lilith Fair’s achievements and critically examines its place in feminist and music history.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Personal Connections and Lilith Fair Nostalgia

• Jana attended Lilith Fair three years running as a high schooler in Portland, OR.
  • She shares: "I went to all three when they came to Portland... I put weed on a bagel because I didn't know how else to sneak in weed to the concert... and did not get high." (05:48)
  • The festival was pivotal: a space for "choir nerds" and "folk woman vibes" outside the male-dominated music spaces (like Warped Tour).
• Chelsea admits she entirely missed the Lilith Fair moment.
  • "I thought it was a singular fair... like Woodstock. In fact, it was the largest traveling tour of all time..." (07:28)

2. Radical Vision and Logistics of Lilith Fair

• The industry said you couldn’t put two women on the same bill; Lilith Fair proved them wrong.

  • "[Promoters] said you can't put two women on the same bill... People won't come." (03:38)
  • "Of course women had to do 10 times the work of a normal festival and fucking put it on semi trucks to get the acclaim that say, a Woodstock has." – Chelsea (07:07)

• Women ran the festival at every level:

  • Female crews got jobs traditionally reserved for men (like moving equipment, running sound).
    • "It was a top to bottom kind of redoing the industry..." (08:49)

3. Sarah McLachlan’s Influence & Personality

• McLachlan emerges as a composed, visionary leader.
  • Chelsea: "On personality alone, the way she handles herself and put it together... She changed the entire music industry." (10:03, 13:28)
  • Jana: "She's not a messy... she's sort of like Canadian ren fair." (13:49)
• Documentary surprise: Many signature TV and movie anthems of the era were Lilith Fair artists.
  • Jana: "All of their songs were the TV themes and movie themes in a way that I don't feel like people credit a Natalie Merchant enough. Or Suzanne Vega or Meredith Brooks." (15:19)

4. Culture Wars, Gender Politics, and Softness as Rebellion

• Contrast to Woodstock 1999 / Male-Centric Festivals:
  • "Lilith Fair was happening at the exact same time, making so much money, so successful, and being this very soft space where that shit [violence, misogyny] didn't happen—and how it was made fun of and lambasted and a punchline in culture..." – Chelsea (17:09)
• Internalized Patriarchy:
  • Jana notes much scorn for Lilith Fair came from women too: "I've talked to so many women my age... they're like, 'oh god.' I think it's internalized patriarchy." (18:17)
  • The music was dismissed as “lame” or “for lesbians,” which points to broader cultural discomfort with women-centered spaces.
• The power of women writing and performing their own stories.
  • Chelsea: “People go nuts for it now, as we see with Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo, Lily Allen’s latest album…” (19:56)

5. Representation and Racial Diversity Critiques

• The hosts praise diversity efforts, especially as the festival evolved:
  • Jana: "I saw Maya at the Lilith Fair and... she was not only an amazing performer, but also was a tap dancer..." (26:20)
• But note the challenge of representation:
  • Chelsea: "Bringing women together in one concert tour becomes political… the tour had to speak for all women... It's so tough how Lilith Fair had to speak for every single woman alive..." (23:34)
  • Yet, Sarah and the organizers were open to critique and course-corrected to include artists like Missy Elliott, Erykah Badu, and Tracy Chapman.
    • Jana admires: "[Sarah] said, 'That's fair. Let's adjust our tour.' ...I wish that's how everyone responded to this." (26:44)

6. Feminism, Money, and the Burden of ‘Goodness’

• Concert proceeds went to charity:
  • Chelsea ponders if the expectation for women to donate/“be good” is both self-imposed and societal:
    • "I think we are expected to be caregivers, to be selfless..." (31:08)
  • Jana adds, "I don't know if capital is our whole thing... The spirit of this tour is sort of like, we just want to make music and we want people to listen to our music and let us on stage." (28:20)

7. Lilith Fair’s Ending, “Peplum Years,” & Attempted Revival

• Lilith Fair ran for only three years; revival in 2010s flopped.
  • "She says, I have to learn that you can't be everything to everyone. And that's painful to learn." (36:16)
  • Chelsea: “The actual, like, come and spend your money on women’s art, didn’t work [in 2012].”
  • Jana: "But it is gonna be a struggle... Like, in my own life, I went and I struggled through the same shit... That, I think, is the legacy of Lilith Fair..." (37:12)

8. Final Reflections: Lilith Fair’s Legacy & What We Need Now

• The festival’s spirit lives on in new iterations of female-centered art, but current industry economics (Ticketmaster, streaming) make collective tours hard.
• Chelsea’s rallying cry for a new era:
  • “If there was some sort of Lilith Fair in any space, comedy, authors, whatever... like, I'm going to the all-female shit. Or... anti-patriarchal space, whatever gender it is, I think we need it really badly right now in all areas of life.” (40:21)
• Jana points to Brandi Carlile as a modern torchbearer: "Brandi Carlile, I call on you to find 10 indie female artists and go on a tour with seats." (41:49)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “I will even watch the bad [music documentaries] and have a good time. Oh, me too. This is a good one.” – Chelsea (05:33)
• “It was so cool to see this moment where 15 women were playing guitar at you the way men always have.” – Chelsea (21:55)
• “Some of the biggest haters of Lilith Fair are women... It’s internalized patriarchy.” – Jana (18:17)
• “You can't be everything to everyone. And that's painful to learn.” – Sarah McLachlan, quoted by Chelsea (36:16)
• “The legacy of Lilith Fair is that we saw it was possible and we just have to replicate it in our own lives.” – Jana (38:08)
• “If there’s an artist that is doing it, it is Brandi Carlile.” – Jana (41:58)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 01:16 – Episode theme and format introduction
• 03:38 – Industry doubters and the festival’s radical premise
• 05:48 – Jana’s first-hand Lilith Fair nostalgia (weed on a bagel anecdote)
• 09:59 – Fashion eras as markers (e.g., “Empire waist” dresses of '90s, “peplum years” of 2010s)
• 13:28 – Sarah McLachlan’s impact and transformation of industry practices
• 17:09 – Lilith vs. Woodstock 1999: contrasting festival cultures
• 18:17 – Dismissive attitudes and internalized patriarchy
• 23:34 – Representation, box-checking, and challenges of inclusion
• 28:20 – Feminism, money, and expectations for goodness
• 36:16 – Lilith Fair’s finale and lessons learned: you can’t be everything for everyone
• 40:21 – Calls for new feminist spaces, the struggle against hyper-capitalist music industry
• 41:49 – The next Lilith Fair: who will build it?

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Memorable/Must-Listen Moments

• Jana’s high school festival stories and “weed bagel” caper (05:48)
• Chelsea’s realization about what she missed and fashion as cultural signifier (09:59)
• Honest discussion of the burden placed on “women’s events” to represent all women (23:34)
• Deep candor about early 2000s “false feminism” and the lessons of Lilith’s failed comeback (36:16–38:58)
• The thriving spark of women collaborating, learning from the Indigo Girls, and dropping solo competition (33:28)
• The finale: a vision of what a new Lilith Fair could look like (40:21–41:58)

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Closing Notes and Recommendations

• Check out Jana’s podcast “Sage Based Wisdom.”
• Lilith Fair: Building a Mystery is streaming on Hulu.
• Playlist: Jana promises to share her Lilith Fair–inspired iTunes playlist with listeners.
• Big picture takeaway: Lilith Fair was both a product of and an answer to its time—an enduring model of women’s artistic community and activism, still needed in new forms today.

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Transcript

[Chelsea Devontes]

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[Jana Schmeding]

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[Chelsea Devontes]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host Chelsea Devontes. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today we are doing a documentary book club episode where we deep dive into to the documentary Lilith Fair Building a Mystery. It is a documentary about the iconic women's music festival of the late 90s founded by singer, songwriter Sarah McLachlan and some others. It was released in September 2025 on Hulu. Directed by Ali Pankiw. It is so so good. There's no spoiler alert for this because well, it's history. The documentary has so much great information visuals. I just highly recommend you watch it before or after you listen to this episode. E Now. We have long talked about doing a Lilith Fair memoir book club episode on this podcast. I mean since 2020 we've been like let's get all the women from Lilith Fair and read their memoirs. Psych. Sarah McLachlan has never written a memoir as well as many other key players in the Lilith Fair world. So we've never been able to do it. So thank God for this documentary. My dreams have come true. Now before we dive in, please know that Bonus episodes Anyone on the Patreon or Apple subscriptions you are getting a Cheryl Hines episode Read her memoir. We're also coming back and doing a special episode just for subscribers where we are reading Olivia Nutzy's book. We are comparing it with Cheryl's book since, you know, Olivia had the affair with RFK Jr. Who Cheryl is married to and will be pulling in the substack of Olivia's former fiance who also wrote his side of it. I will probably also pull in some Keith Olbermann tweets from the past decade. God, I just I love when we get to take three memoirs of one relationship and thread through the truth. I'm so excited for that episode. And we are reading Cynthia Erivo's memoir. Plus, Christina, our producer and I are going to see Wicked on the same night. So we are also going to discuss Wicked. That is all for people on Patreon only or those who subscribe to our Apple podcast subscriptions, so be sure to sign up. Okay, let's dive in.

[Unidentified Speaker]

Promoter said you can't put two women.

[Chelsea Devontes]

On the same bill.

[Unidentified Speaker]

People will come.

[Chelsea Devontes]

That's complete. And it put a huge fire under my butt to prove them wrong. My guest today is writer, actor and comedian Jana Schmeding. You might remember Jana from our Nico Case memoir episode back in February where she called herself, quote, a Lilith Fair girly. So, you know, we booked her immediately. Janice starred as the lead next to Ed Helms on Peacock's Rutherford Falls. She also served as a writer on this series. Okay, Multi Hyphenate Bitch. And her other performances can also be found on shows like Reservation Dogs, Spirit Rangers, Marvel's Echo, the Great North Clone, High on HBO Max, so many other things. Also, your podcast. My God, how is that not in the bio? Janet, talk about your podcast real quick and then we'll talk about the documentary. Yeah.

[Jana Schmeding]

Hi, I have a podcast called Sage Based Wisdom that I co host with Hopi Thonau Navajo comedian Brian Box, where we give advice, terrible advice from our backgrounds in Native American Heritage Month to listeners. It's very fun and silly.

[Chelsea Devontes]

It's very fun. Very silly. Okay, so when you were on this podcast, we were doing Nico Case's memoir. We literally said we wish we could do a Lilith Fair episode. And then the documentary came out. Had you already watched it before we called you? Like, what Thoughts and feelings. Okay, so tell me everything.

[Jana Schmeding]

I watched it the day it came out and I've watched it twice since. And I watched the documentary with my straight boyfriend.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Did he melt? Did he see it and instantly melted like a witch?

[Jana Schmeding]

You know what? My boyfriend is a professional electric bassist, so he is in the music world and he loved the documentary. He likes all sort of music biography documentaries, and this one was right up there he was like into it.

[Chelsea Devontes]

So it is phenomenal. I also love a music documentary the way I love Memoirs, which is to say I'll even watch the bad ones and have a good time. Oh, me too. This is a good one. This one is so, so good. Are you too young to have been to Lilith Fair? Did you go?

[Jana Schmeding]

I went to all three when they came to Portland, Oregon. Girl, I was in high school. I was in high school and I made the trek into downtown Portland. I sat in the lines, I put weed on a bagel because I didn't know how else to sneak in weed to the concert. This is back when weed was illegal. So I sprinkled some weed buds on a cream cheese bagel, ate it with my sister in the thing and did not get high. So yeah, I went three years in a row when Lilith Fair came through to the Pacific Northwest.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Wait, that's unbelievable. So you were a hardcore fan of all the musicians? Knew about it as it was coming out. Like, this is. This really is your bag.

[Jana Schmeding]

It really is. I am like rich in anti culture in my family. Like I just grew up as a choir nerd. And so Sarah McLaughlin was like an entrance into a pop music genre that is right in my vocal range. A lot of harmonies that you can practice on. I was just early on, like very into a Sarah McLaughlin, very into a jewel. Very into a sort of like folk woman vibe. Which is why I love Nico Case. You know, just like a. And also like a rock woman. It was right up my alley and I literally have never. I never went to like Warp tour. I never went to that. Like, it was just too mask for me. I am a Lilith Fair girl till I die.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I love this so much. And also this reminded me, quick follow up. You left our Nico Case episode saying, I'm going to DM them and make them my friend.

[Jana Schmeding]

I haven't done that. I haven't really, you know, sort of been on my A game with Nico.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Well, we're here to hold you accountable.

[Jana Schmeding]

Listen. Yeah, I. I do still have dreams of this. And also, can we be friends with Sarah McLaughlin?

[Chelsea Devontes]

Can we?

[Jana Schmeding]

Can we?

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. So let's. Okay, so let's dive in. So I. I will be fully honest and say that I've always known of Lilith Fair, but I missed it. Fully missed it. To the point that even grown woman watching this documentary, I, till the moment I watched the documentary always thought it was a singular fair. I thought it was like Woodstock. I thought it was. They gathered once a year and they held the fair. In fact, it was like the largest traveling tour of all fucking time. I mean, they played like what was like 50 shows in 50 days. It's so hard for one person to take a tour on the road. And Sarah did this with so many acts, so many women, so many rotating acts, and it went all across the country. And I said, of course, women had to do 10 times the work of a normal festival and fucking put it on semi trucks to get the acclaim that say, a Woodstock has. Which, again, was just a time, one singular time a year.

[Jana Schmeding]

And you know what? This is gonna be my tone throughout this entire episode. They did it well. They did it well. Went off without a hitch. And everyone on the crew felt respected, beloved even. It was like a fun tour. Yeah, it was challenging. But they did press every night.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Every single night of press conference. And I loved that. Yes, it was a top to bottom kind of redoing the industry and that they had a ton of female crew who got their first chance at like working crew on a tour, which was like typically a man's job to move the big music equipment. I did not know I was a Sarah McLachlan fan before the documentary because I think I'm in that exact age where, like, I knew her from the dog commercials. That was my entry point to Sarah, which is different, right?

[Jana Schmeding]

Yeah, that's an unfortunate place to be because the dog commercials are really a bummer. So I grew up in like the late 80s 90s, and Sarah really struck a chord with sort of the mid to late 90s, right after Alanis Morissette. It was like she was like performing during the Atlantis years, but, like, she became popular in that, like, I don't know why I'm calling it this, but like the princess cut dress years of the 90s, where it's like the dresses were cut like right under the boobs.

[Chelsea Devontes]

You know, little Empire waste, I have to tell you.

[Jana Schmeding]

Empire waste.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I also classify time, especially in my life, through fashion trends. And we are going to bring up. Sorry, everyone who listens to this podcast all the time. We will bring up the peplum years as well, which are the 2010 to 2012. But like, there's certain. Because that's when they tried to put up Lilith Fair again and it. It failed. And so. But yeah, there's certain fashion moments where you're like, that's. I know exactly where we are in time. Yeah, I watched the documentary and this is the same way I felt reading Ione Sky's memoir and Nico Case' memoir, where I feel sad for what I missed out on because I was alive then and those pieces of culture didn't make it to me. So I never really experienced Sarah. And watching her in the documentary, I was like, wait a minute, am I massive Sarah McLachlan fan? Like, on personality alone, the way she handles herself and put it together. And the coolest thesis of Lilith Fair that I hadn't really sat with is that they wouldn't book multiple female acts on a tour. So if like like venue, which is how you made most your Money in the 90s, back when we went to stuff in person, they would book one female act. But you could not have two female acts on a lineup because no one would come, everyone would hate it. And you couldn't play women back to back on the radio because you already played one woman song, one female song, which created the culture of cat fights and women fighting with each other because you created only one spot that everyone had to fight for. Yeah. And so Sarah comes through in this time when she could have easily just continued on the path that had been laid and said, I'm going to do only female festival lineup. So you see that people want multiple women and that we aren't in competition with each other. The same way you could play men back to back and not think anything of it. And she changed the entire music industry. Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back.

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[Chelsea Devontes]

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[Jana Schmeding]

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[Jana Schmeding]

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[Chelsea Devontes]

Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. She changed how concerts are run. She changed that you can. A female can open for a female these days. That she changed how radios play songs like, I. I'm so in awe that she did this and was so composed during it. She's not a messy.

[Jana Schmeding]

No, she's not. I think that her music also speaks to this, that she's sort of like a Canadian ren fair. Like, I feel like her first album was something that I listened to in, like, middle school and early high school, and it's very like playing a lute. It feels like sort of like a Celtic homage with a little bit of a pop flair. Very instrumental. It's just like a beautiful sort of like, hippie dippy. I don't know how to say it other than like, fairycore, but fairy spelled like F, A, E, R. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever the weird old timey word is.

[Chelsea Devontes]

You know what? I also think what you're saying.

[Jana Schmeding]

Fairycore.

[Chelsea Devontes]

What really struck me from the documentary is how many. Many of the songs that artists in Lilithaire played were the anthems of our television shows. So, yeah, even when you remove the fairy core of it, it has this emotional musical resonance to enjoying and wanting more out of life. So it's like the Dawson's Creek song and, like, Creek of it all. Yeah. I was just like, o. Oh, my God. All of their songs were the TV themes and movie themes in a way that I don't feel like people credit a Natalie Merchant enough. Or Suzanne Vega or Meredith Brooks.

[Jana Schmeding]

No Natalie Merchant. Oh, my God, totally. And I have to say, like, since the doc came out, I created a lilith Fair little iTunes playlist for myself.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Are you going to share it with us? Can we drop to our listeners?

[Jana Schmeding]

Yes, I will share it with you asap. It just brings me back emotionally to a place in my life where you hit the nail on the head. I wanted more. I wanted more from life, and I knew that there was more. The way that culture in the 90s was trying to pit women against each other, sort of sexualizing us in a way that, like, we saw, like, the Britney Spears of it all, that we knew it was disturbing. It was macabre. Like, the way that feminism was being sort of silenced, erased, and also, like, like, pushed back against by the patriarchy. There was this sort of musical renaissance that was happening from these women, these Lilith Fair icons at the time, that was like, we've never given a About this. This is our space, and you should come in and enjoy it. And it's just this, like, true love of music. It is not saying anything powerful. It's not like, hardcore in its messaging. It's not really Alanis vibes. You know, it's not like the man. It's sort of just like, let's. Let's live in freedom and, like, unity and, like, beauty and, like, softness, which is interesting.

[Chelsea Devontes]

The stereotypical connotations to Lilith Fair are not softness and peace and unity. It's feminist rage. Which is funny because Alanis never played Lilith Fair.

[Jana Schmeding]

No.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Which I know there's all types. That's a whole other discourse. But I was really struck again by how much the culture war of the late 90s is a mirror to right now in that I saw the Woodstock documentary where Limp Bizkit and just, you know, sets it all on fire.

[Jana Schmeding]

It's giving male loneliness crisis.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yes. Yeah. And the crowd is angry. And also kind of part of it is that, like, they're charging $8 for water, which kind of. It makes this little. Our groceries are high, but just within the concert venue. How will this little town for three days respond to not being able to afford water and food? And they're tired and they're hungry, and then you have these men on stage being like, burn it down. And they're like, okay. And there's assault and pain and just, like, every reason why I have paranoia to go to concerts live in that Woodstock documentary and to really sit with the fact that Lilith Fair was happening at the exact same time, making so much money, so successful, and being this very soft space where that shit didn't happen and how it was made fun of and lambasted and a punchline in culture, like, women are just politicized and power in numbers. And also the moment the numbers get together, everyone fears it, and it makes fun of them and is like, they're feminists hating sluts. But when you look at Woodstock compared to Lilith Fair, I would press anyone to buy tickets to Woodstock. If you're comparing the documentaries, you know, honestly.

[Jana Schmeding]

And can I say that, like, some of the biggest haters of Lilith Fair are women.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Jana Schmeding]

And it just, like. It kind of, like, proves its own point. I've talked to so many women my age, and I. I've, you know, come out as a Lilith Fair girly, and they're like, oh, God.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Like. And what do you Think that is.

[Jana Schmeding]

Like, frowned upon that, like, I am that person. I think it's internalized patriarchy. I don't know what else it could be like. It's like, it's truly like. I don't hate on people who like, went to Warp tour or went to Woodstock 95. Like, to each their own. I think that that's sort of what I appreciate about my boyfriend who watched the Lil the Fair documentary. He loves music. He has appreciation for every scene. You know, there was this. This really intense at the time and after the Lilith Fair tours ended, this really strong sense of shade toward people who liked that kind of music. And I was like, ashamed of being a Lilith Fair girly for the longest time because everybody was like, that's so lame. The music is lame. The performers are lame. The whole tour, like, who does that? What is. What are you, a lesbian? Like, it's just like the weirdest. Just tone.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Jana Schmeding]

Toward a fem centric, like, music scene off. Are you kidding? It was the coolest I have ever seen. You get to sit down the whole time.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Okay, that's my kind of concert.

[Jana Schmeding]

100%. As long as I get to sit down. Like, I don't care. This was. It was like, so loving. We see how young girls react to Taylor Swift's music. She writes this poetic stuff about all of her. The highs and lows of her life, you know, And I'm like, yeah, I mean, girls love storytelling. Like, we love a story being told.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Well, that was the huge thread for me, which theme of the podcast, which is women writing their own point of view and their own story, which I think the idea that the music is lame is so ridiculous because if you brought on those music snobs to discuss, like, musicality or whatever, they would all have to be like, this music is brilliant. It just is. But also it is women writing their own melodies, their own lyrics, telling their own stories. People go nuts for it. Now we see that with Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo, Lily Allen's latest album, and music or not, the idea of where are stories for us written by women about we live through. And every time a woman is allowed to like, talk and write and, and tell stories, it blows the up. And people can't really seem to grasp that or understand that that's behind the success. One thing that I think is so interesting is it is a shit ton of white women with brunette, mousy fairy hair, if that is fair to say. And now I also want to say there's so much diversity within that.

[Jana Schmeding]

I was listen, love Seeing all the different, diverse mice.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Like, but there was. It was so cool. It's like what I get high on with housewives and work in tv, where it's like, if there's two women in a show, it's like, well, what they got? I have different hair colors. How will people tell them apart? And there's nothing I love more than, like, seven bleach blondes, you know, with plastic surgery, with the same jawline, all showing you the nuance and depth of women. I had the same feeling with Lilith Fair was like, it's just so cool to see so many different types of women who typically are in one singular box.

[Jana Schmeding]

And they all have pixie cut.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. Or they have my current long witch hair. You know what I mean? We're just like, oh, we all walked.

[Jana Schmeding]

Out of the river.

[Chelsea Devontes]

But I think you could dismiss it the way it definitely was dismissive. Like, look at all these, you know, white ladies being fairies. Or look at all these white ladies being, like, summer witches. But it was so cool to see this moment where 15 women were playing guitar at you the way men always have. And it was so cool to see that for a moment, because even when I think of now, I can't name that many of the same type of woman writing and making her own music. We still have, like, just a couple from each stereotype category. Does that make sense?

[Jana Schmeding]

Yeah. And I think that we saw something similar in the late 60s, early 70s with sort of the Joan by. With the folk scene. Had like a Linda Ronstadt, Joan Bai, Joanie, Stevie, Nick, sort of. You know, there was a little bit of a blip. I think, like, every 20 years or so, we get like a little. We get a quick little flash of it.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And we definitely had our pop girl Summer with Sabrina Carpenter, Chapel Roan, Olivia Rodrigo, Taylor Swift. We definitely had that moment. But I think specifically there's something about being the instrument player and the songwriter at the same time. And I know those women exist. I'm not saying that's not. I'm just saying, like, in. In popular culture.

[Jana Schmeding]

No, no, no. It's. It's singer, songwriter, front and center, leading lady vibes. And on the whiteness of it all, which the documentary does discuss.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yes.

[Jana Schmeding]

These women, led by Sarah McLachlan, they responded to the critique of their whiteness, and they said, you know what? You're right.

[Chelsea Devontes]

That said, there's something I can't stop thinking about, which is the first year of the festival, they do have Tracy Chapman. They do have diversity within this genre of music that they all play this folksy music, music. But because bringing women together in one concert tour becomes political the way it doesn't with dudes, then the tour had to speak for all women, right? And it was so. It was like, it was so cool to see them book Missy Elliott, but also such a different musical like Erykah Badu coming on was amazing, and it was so cool. She said herself, like, I wouldn't have met this audience without this, and they wouldn't even met me. And now then Erica went to start her own tour just like this for other black women. So there were so many cool parts of it. But then there was this thing getting to me of feminism should always be inclusive. And we know we have issues with white lady feminism. And yet it's so tough how Lilith Fair had to speak for every single woman alive. So it was just like, yeah, now you're checking boxes to answer a press quote versus, like, the root of the problem is a whole systemic problem of. Of resources and music education and opportunities even being offered from a beginner's level, even being open to women and people of all class incomes and people of all races and ethnicities. And so, you know, there's a whole root of the problem that's starting far before you see who is performing at the festival.

[Jana Schmeding]

I think that many things can be true at once. That, yes, it is so unfair that women always have to, like, answer for everyone. Our movements have to be perfect and we can never just have our thing. It has to be critiqued, it has to be pulled apart. And that is just like a reality of being a woman in America that, like, we cannot be flawed and we are always second guessed. And also, I think that reacting and responding to genuine questions about diversity. At the time when I was coming up and going to Lilith Fair, I can't say that I was really thinking that much about the racial makeup of the musicians. I'm gonna eat what you serve me, and I'm going enjoy it. You know, like all. I love all of these artists and I listen to them regularly. And of course that there's. There's some people that I listen to that are not on this tour. And like, that's just the tour. You know, I just assume that tours are like, we're friends, so we're going out together, you know, whatever. But, like, seeing Tracy Chapman live was incredible. I saw Erica Badu live, and it was incredible. And it was exposure to Erykah Badu. You know, like, there's were a lot of artists that I was exposed to. Through Lilith Fair.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Jana Schmeding]

And I also think that the ability for Sarah McLaughlin and the Tour to react to that and be like, that's fair. Let's adjust our tour and bring in Missy Elliott. Like, I saw Maya at the Lilith Fair and like, she was not only an amazing performer, but also was a tap dancer and, like, had this whole tap routine that was like, so cool.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Cool.

[Jana Schmeding]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And the fact that she just got the critique and you see her at the press conference be like, great note, I'm gonna change. Which you're like, I wish that's how everyone responded to this.

[Jana Schmeding]

I really do. I really do. I hate that the time that we live in is someone gets a piece of critique that on social media or something and they feel like they have to make a public response. And the public response is always to be defensive.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. And I will say in the same vein, I also hate that of the people who do change, social media often doesn't let them. They're like, well, you right once. And it's like, yeah, but you told them. And they're trying to not be. And we gotta let it go. Or like, what do we want? Do we want change or do we want exile of people who mess up? So I think. I think that goes hand in hand with the. The other thought I was having, which you just spoke about, which is like, women's movements have to be perfect and Sarah donates so much money. It's so phenomenal. It is a part of the tour ticket that proceeds from the tour are given away and they give away millions of dollars to charity. Sarah also started a music school for underprivileged women to have access to music education that has been running for the last 20 years using money from this festival. But it also felt like by making sure people knew that part of the ticket sales would go to charity. It was also protective where people would allow these women to make money and allow them to make music sales because they're going to give it away and be care. Caregivers and be nurturers. Had they just gobbled it up and kept it for themselves, what would they have experienced in the media?

[Jana Schmeding]

I don't know how this comes off. As a. As a woman and as an indigenous woman, my feeling is that as women, especially creative women, I don't know if capital is our whole thing. Like, I question whether or not we are natural capitalists. And I don't know if that is, like, what this tour was about. And I also feel like the spirit of this tour is sort of like, we just Want to make music and we want people to listen to our.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Music and let us on stage.

[Jana Schmeding]

You let us on stage. And also, like, yeah, we have a lot of money, so like, let's just wear whatever city we go to. We're gonna donate some of it. Like, that's just the spirit of womanhood and sisterhood and like, like in the 90s also. I do want to say that this is a time of like extreme patriarchy. The patriarchy. We don't talk enough about the 1990s. I think we're starting to see like some documentaries. Like, the Woodstock one was very telling. And to me it was like triggering to watch that because I was thinking what it was like to be a teen woman in the 90s and to be Monica so oppressed.

[Chelsea Devontes]

It's Monica.

[Jana Schmeding]

It's Monica Ly. There's so much sexual assault happening. There's so much just disgusting behavior by men. And it was a very toxic pop culture in that time. So this tour, it didn't feel like a pop tour. It was a sort of off the beaten path, folksy tour for a specific type of woman who is wanting more and knows that there is more out there for us. And I want to say that I don't think any of the women on this tour would have been like, God, we gotta fucking donate.

[Chelsea Devontes]

No.

[Jana Schmeding]

You know what I mean?

[Chelsea Devontes]

No, I think you're right. I think this is also why it's the pee under the mattress for me in the sense of like, I naturally feel that inclination too. Like when I'm like, merch, sales, anything. I'm like. And then part of it gets given away, right? Because that's what feels right. When I think of Olivia Rodrigo giving away Plan B and talking about abortion rights as part of her concert structure, I'm like, yes, it makes me love her more. I'm like, this is what you do with power. When Billie Eilish and just like, I'm giving away $10 million. Hello, billionaires in the room. Give it the fuck away.

[Jana Schmeding]

Match me.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, match me. That's the artist I want to support. That's the artist I want to be.

[Jana Schmeding]

That's what I want to began the stallion being all pro abortion on her tour. You know, it's like, it's not how we're expected to present in public. I think people want us to be more like, whatever. I do want the money. And I think that it is actually, and especially in this time period, I think being a. A woman who wants to donate things to their community because they actually care Is like going against the grain, you know, it's like something that not everybody's doing.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I think, I disagree. I think we are expected to be caregivers, to be selfless. That the characteristics of like, I'm getting money and you can all yourselves, I'm gonna take the most profit out of you. Is seen as. Yeah, I mean it's already villainous, but on a woman looks extra evil. You're a, if you're a CEO. Whereas like men, it's like, well, they're doing business. We get it where she's a, how could she do that? But like, he's a smart businessman.

[Jana Schmeding]

Yeah, I see that too. I, I, I don't disagree with you on that. I guess I just wonder if the expectation for them to donate in this specific tour or like how, you know, it's sort of like, God, why do women always have to be like good? You know, why do we always have to be like good girls? You know, that's what's getting me like.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Watching that they raised so much money. They made a ton of money and donated it because both are always possible. I loved it so much. I was just like, oh, this is so fascina tour that simply just wanted two women's songs to be able to be played back to back on the radio. Who launched a three year long multi city fair to prove this point. Also had to do every single thing perfectly and was a punchline. And it was considered because I think the late 90s are that I know the late 90s are that moment where being quote, gay or a lesbian was like the highest insult in the middle school, you know. And so, so they were talking about how like, oh my gosh, these women were performing alongside the Indigo Girls and not worrying if people would think they were gay. And you're like, God, that is so sad. That is so sad. And that it was brave to not care that they were gonna lump you in with being a feminist. Because being a feminist, the media blitz of like, it was a disgusting thing to be had worked so well on everyone and I loved it. It was so inspiring and it was so, so cool. I would say, like, I want to ask your highlights before we wrap this up, but I would say one of my biggest highlights was how many women, I think Jules specifically is one of them talked about how they were so nervous when they got in this space because you, they never saw other women. The women weren't in the business, they weren't in the rooms with them. They weren't on, they were not on, like they said they weren't on tours with them, they weren't at the radio shows with them. And so they were. They would approach it, like, what do I say to them? These are my competition. They think they're being bitches to me. And slowly realize that they could talk to each other and that they could play each other's sets.

[Jana Schmeding]

With the Indigo Girls, with the Integral Indigo Girls were like, ladies, ladies, let's hang out in the trailer and sing each other's songs.

[Chelsea Devontes]

As they were like, wait, I can join you in a song. We can talk about harmonies. We can, like, make our music better and like, and how each of the women are like, holy. We can be friends with women. I think that was my highlight.

[Jana Schmeding]

Oh, truly. I remember sort of seeing the progression of the little fair. Like the first year, it was like, oh, my God, I'm getting to see, like, all of my favorite performers on one stage, you know, and then by the third one, you're seeing so much more collaboration. The women are coming out together. It's not just the. The last song where they're singing like, you are my sunshine together in like eight part harmony. It was like Bonnie Raitt coming out with Paula Cole or whatever. You know, it's like people would just like, jump on each other's sets and it was so magical. So you saw over the course of the years that they are becoming friends. And not only are. Are they becoming friends, they're becoming collaborators. And it's like we're building on this, like, sort of legacy that. That we are fostering. And also it was very anti. Patriarchal. Like, it was. The tone was, you know, we are women who have been through some.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Jana Schmeding]

In this industry and beyond. You know, Sinead o' Connor is like. She was one. She was a main stage artist during the Lilith Fair. Sinead o', Connor, like, her whole. Whole thing was, I am an assault victim and the Catholic Church is pieces of, you know, like, and we are all victims. We live in a very unjust society. That Tone was not shied away from at the Lilith Fair. So it was sort of like. It almost felt like this secret feminist concert series, you know, like that was like, oh, we don't have to be ashamed of our feminism if we come to this place.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Jana Schmeding]

Into this space, you know.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. And we can feel safe at a venue. I gotta tell you, it's all going back to. You can sit down the whole time. For me, that's just sort of like the best concert I've ever heard of. I. We have to end Talking about the peplum years, which kind of go hand in hand with how Lilith Fair ends. It's only three years, and the night it ends, it's pouring rain. But beyond that, you can kind of tell that Sarah is ready for it to be done, because to simply put women together and say, we are enough. She goes through hell for three years. And I think it really. It was a huge endurance test for. For all involved and especially her kind of being the leading voice. And so when it ends, you can tell she's like, I am ready to get out of this fight for a second. And specifically, she says, I have to learn that you can't be everything to everyone. And that's painful to learn. And then she is in the documentary talking about people always say how lilithair has to come back. And she goes, well, it did. It did. It came back. And the. I think it's 2010, 2011, 2012. And it failed.

[Jana Schmeding]

Failed.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And ticket sales were low. And I real. I mean, I had no idea it was mounted again then, but I do know exactly where I was in that time, which was being like, Broad City has saved us. Amy Poehler and Tina Fey are hosting the Golden Globes. Feminism is here. I have a futurist female T shirt that costs $72 even though I work minimum wage.

[Jana Schmeding]

And for me, it was sort of. I'm the only girl on the all male improv team.

[Chelsea Devontes]

It's like people say, I improvise like a man. I've made it it. And that is the moment when Lilith failed in coming back. What did you make of that moment of. I think it's so sad to look back in hindsight, but really false feminism that I definitely was. It was lean in and I was.

[Jana Schmeding]

Like, we are here.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And yet the actual, like, come and spend your money on women's art didn't work.

[Jana Schmeding]

It didn't work. But I will argue that it, in its own way, it did, because I think we learned a valuable lesson along with Sarah McLachlan, which is you can't be everything for everyone. We watched her go through hell and back, and she did it for us, and we can do that in our own lives. But it is gonna be a struggle. It is gonna be painful, and it's gonna be really, really hard. Like, in my own life, I went and I, like, struggled through the same shit. Like I said, like, only girl on the improv team, making all girls improv and sketch teams and proving that it was, like, cool and funny and in its own way and like, you know, making A space for women in my comedy community, doing my own Lilith version of indie New York City comedy. Like that, I think, is the legacy of Lilith Fair is that we saw it was possible and we just have to replicate it in our own lives. And not to, like, be so full circle about it, but, like, I didn't need it when it came back. I didn't need it. I needed it so bad. When I went to the Lilith Fair originally, I was a young woman. I was, like, about to embark on a greater world that hated me, that hated everything about me, that hated that I was like a fat young woman. It hated my beauty, it hated my skill, it hated my intelligence. This world, we were facing a much deeper form of patriarchy at that time. And when it came back in 2012, I didn't need it as much. And I was past the Sarah McLachlan phase of my music life. And I think that that's okay. I love that she tried again and it didn't happen. But, like, also, like, job well done, pack it up and you can rest now.

[Chelsea Devontes]

You can rest now, Auntie Sarah. That was really, really beautifully said, and I feel that so deeply. And not that it literally needs to happen now, but I do think we're in a moment where that lesson you just said of make your own Lilith Fair in your own spaces, I do think we're actually there again, where I agree. You know, I had this thought of, like, what if there was a tour of, like, Chapel, Roan and Olivia Rodrigo and Lady Gagam and Becky G&SZA and Kehlani and Dochi and Charli XCX or whatever, right? And my second thought was, was like, there's no venue big enough because each of them can blow it out, which is progress in and of itself. But then my second thought is, I do want that. Because Taylor Swift and Beyonce's tours alone showed you that we are the buying power. We bring back the summer economy. If you make art for women enough, right? Like, that a concert space that is mostly made up of women, like, feels really safe and nice and that, like, I do want to see, like, I know Chapel and Olivia perform together. It's like, I want to see. I do want to see more of that. I think if there was some sort of Lilith Fair in any space, comedy authors, whatever, like, I'm going to the all female shit. Or not even just, like, gendered in that way, but in the way of, like, anti patriarchal space, whatever gender it is, I think we need it really badly right now in all areas of life.

[Jana Schmeding]

Yeah. And I think that what we're up against right now is just like the hyper capitalization of music generally. Right. We are out of the era of monoculture. We are no longer listening to the radio. You know, we are all listening to different things that are streaming. And the streaming platforms have taken over. We have like Ticketmaster and all that bullshit that is making tours impossible and unaffordable and inaccessible to people. And that's the reason that, like, I rarely go to concerts anymore. Live concerts. I can't afford it. Like, I just can't. And I don't want to spend $800 to go and stand for an entire show that I might know maybe four songs to, you know, like, I'm like that kind of listener anymore. I agree that we need another Lilith Faire. And what I think needs to happen in order for Lilith Fair type vibes to come back is that this, like, music bubble, this like creepy Spotify sort of hyper capitalist music bubble needs to burst.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Jana Schmeding]

And it needs it. All of the industries need it. Film needs it too. Where this bubble needs to burst, we're only spending money on three artists. We're only spending money on, like, the Marvel Cinematic Universe and like action movies. We need the bubble to burst so that independent artists start to flourish again. And we have an opportunity to actually access and explore and support independent musicians.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Brandi Carlisle, I call on you to find 10 indie female artists and go.

[Jana Schmeding]

On a tour with seats.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And I will be there.

[Jana Schmeding]

If there is an artist that is doing it, it is Brandi Carlos. Absolutely.

[Chelsea Devontes]

It is Brandy Carlo and she's in the documentary. Jana, tell everyone where to listen to all your thoughts and words and support you and love you.

[Jana Schmeding]

Please check out all of my stupid hot takes on my podcast that I co host with Brian Bahi. It's called Sage Based Wisdom. You can listen to it on Apple podcasts or Spotify. Even though I hate Spotify and you can watch us on YouTube, please subscribe to us on YouTube. That's like the best place. We shoot the pod in my living room with my two cats.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Okay. Gotta see the cats. And we are going to beg your playlist from you and drop it in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here. Dream guest, dream person to discuss this with and please go watch the documentary. It is very, very good. I'd say one of the best documentaries of the year.

[Jana Schmeding]

I might watch it again today.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Lilith Fair on Hulu.

[Jana Schmeding]

Bye bye.

[Chelsea Devontes]

A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada. Our sound engineer Marcus Hamm and our amazing associate producer Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and Every Blue. We will link to those brands in the show notes. Go check them out. Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes. And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon sign up. There's a free tier you can join Leave a comment chat with your fellow cookies we will keep the book club continuing over there.

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[Chelsea Devontes]

Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

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[Jana Schmeding]

Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates Excludes.

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