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Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
Heated Rivalry: A Hot, Hot TV Book Club Discourse
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- [00:00]
A
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A
Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book club's viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea Devon Ches. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today we're doing the deepest of deep dives on the hottest TV show of the holiday season slash the century. And that is the Canadian TV show on Crave that was picked up on hbo. A show about two hockey players and a forbidden love. You know, real enemies to lovers situation, if you will.
- [02:04]
C
I was gonna ask you, Hollander, will you come to my cottage this summer? Don't go to Russia. Come to my house. We'll have so much fun. It's so private. No one will know.
- [02:14]
D
Huldra, you know we can't do that.
- [02:16]
C
We could have a week or even two, be completely alone together.
- [02:23]
A
We're of course talking about heated rivalry. It really fits into the canon of Glamorous Trash. Obviously, it has to come onto the podcast. And so while I love the show, the discourse surrounding the show is really what's gotten me real hot. And there is so much to discuss. And today we have assembled a panel of experts. Okay, we've brought more than one guest to really Give this subject its due. And I'm really, I'm going to give everyone's casual bios and really how it relates to the episode. So first up, we have one of my best friends, my maid of honor, and as she recently wrote in my dms, a certified homo. Kenzie has been the guest on every Queer Love Ultimatum episode. I think you are possibly our official Sapphic content correspondent and you reached out to me with so many dms, not to mention you sent me a notes app at midnight last night that you'd just been casually keeping for no reason. I read your notes and I hope we get to all of them. Kenzie, welcome to the podcast cottage.
- [03:22]
D
Thank you so much for having me. I'm very happy to be here.
- [03:26]
A
Thank you.
- [03:26]
D
Happy to be a Sapphic informant. The note in the notes app is so long, guys. It's like it's been. It's been going.
- [03:32]
A
It's a collection.
- [03:33]
D
It might be at this point a diary entry.
- [03:35]
A
Who knows? Our next guest is Julia Washington, who is the owner of Prose and Glow, which is a literary inspired gift shop. And just a small plug here I am a part of Julia's monthly book club where she sends you a handmade candle that goes with the book they're reading that month. It is the best investment in myself that I've made. Every month I get a new candle. It's so fun. Julia's also a romance novel enthusiast, part time bookseller, I'm gonna say expert in romance. Like you are such a romance fan. Don't worry that the title's not too heavy for you because I'm calling you that. Because I was on a terrifying online journey with Julia as she waited to get the out of stock books that this series is based on. And based on your enthusiasm for those books and how fast they came, I am calling you an expert. Julia, having read the books, what do you think of how the adaptation to the TV show was handled?
- [04:26]
E
Hands down, probably one of the best adaptations that we've ever seen. Probably the best romance adaptation we've ever seen. Jacob Tierney saw that there's a fan base respected the fan base brought in a new fan base that was excited about it. But the way he honors, well, it's technically books one and two in season one is just so beautiful and it's this moment and I also, because the book club that you are a part of. Thank you, Chelsea, for supporting my tiny business. We rebook to screen adaptation. So every month we're picking a book to screen adaptation and there's so Many where you're just like you. You could have done a good job, and you didn't. And Jacob Tierney was like, I see you. I understand the fan base is like, you did this. You understand this series. You love Rachel Reed. You love these characters. I love these characters. Now let's get everyone else to love these characters, too. It's incredible.
- [05:18]
A
That is so thrilling to hear. Obviously had a feeling that was the case, but sometimes A is good and it doesn't match up to the books. And this doing both is just so nice. Okay, we're going to get into even more details later, and our last guest to round out this discussion is my dear friend Rodrick Flucas. I call him Rod. Rod is a television executive and owner of the cuntiest little wig I've ever seen, which he casually wore to the movies once.
- [05:43]
D
And I. I watched that video of.
- [05:45]
A
You going to the movies, that wig, like, once a week. Also, voice of an angel. I watched Rod sing a solo at a Josh Groban concert last year. Now, Rod sometimes plays Magic the G with my husband in a men's group, and today he'll be talking with me as I say phrases like, America's ass. Rod, how do you feel about that?
- [06:03]
C
I feel like this is the way the world was supposed to be. This is my individual connection between both you and Yasser. Like, it's perfect.
- [06:11]
A
I'm so excited to talk with you all. And so I'm going to break this episode into four buckets. First, we're going to do some series highlights. Then we're going to talk about why we love their love. Like, the deeper philosophical goings on. Then we're going to talk about something I'm calling the second Fantasy. This is fulfilling. Do I have your interest piqued? Find out. Keep listening to the episode. You'll see what I mean. And then the final category is Thorny questions. Questions that are hard to answer but are coming up a lot in this discourse that I want to attempt to discuss. Now, before we get into those buckets, I just want to give a basic overview for the 10 to 12 listeners who are like, what's heated? Rivalry. And the basic overview is that this is a TV series about two feuding arch rival hockey players, and they're both not out of the closet. And they basically have a situationship over the course of eight years, like, almost a decade, where this relationship touches every area of their lives and also grows and changes as they are going through their hockey careers. That's. That's just like a vague overview it leads to so, so, so much more that that description is missing a lot. So watch the episodes. This is going to be a spoiler filled conversation. And before I kick off our first question, I will say that I got a DM in my Instagram stories from a woman saying, all my straight female friends are talking about this gay hockey show and I don't understand what's happening. I think they've joined a cult. And I asked people on Instagram to write in explaining why they love this show. And I got answers from everything from like, two dicks are hotter than one dick to bitch. Gay people love this show too. To gay sex is just cooler. To this DM from our guest, Kenzie, which I'm going to read out loud because it inspired the episode. As a certified homo, I know it resonated with women across sexualities and identities because watching men whose emotional intelligence has been stunted by the patriarchy feel safe enough to be vulnerable makes women feel safe enough to be vulnerable. Gender is the crux of it. There are no gender politics, no imbalances of power, and no question of safety with two men being in love. Even in lesbian or queer relationships, the effects of the patriarchy are everywhere. We can't deprogram all of it. The power of the show has simply come down to feeling freeing and feeling free is sexy and inspiring. It's hot to see what love can be like in an innately balanced relationship. So to kick us off, I ask you, is that how you felt watching the show? Did you feel freed in some way because of the gender dynamics of the two leads? Or is this something of how it's hitting women, but for how it's hitting men? Maybe? There's a lot of the patriarchy involved in this show. I'll throw to you first, Rod.
- [08:58]
C
I don't know if freeing was what I felt initially. I think my initial thoughts were kind of like, oh, God, oh, God, oh, God, what's gonna happen? But, like, I think after episode two or three, I was like, okay, this is incredible. Like, this is one of the best representations of gay sort of, like, yearning and tension and sexuality that I've seen that is, like, so freeing, but also so emotionally constricting in a way that, like, really let this story really play out well.
- [09:29]
A
So, yeah, yeah, a cookie named Nick DM'd me, who had also been an athlete in college who didn't come out of the closet because of being, like, the captain of his team. And he was talking about how you get into. Or he got into, like, fucked up situationships where you allow yourself to be mistreated or it's kept a secret or you only see each other every few months and how that's actually like a really vicious cycle. But in this show, because it unravels and then because when you're a woman, you haven't had that experience, like it's hitting everyone differently.
- [09:57]
E
I think it's a slow burn yearn, which is my favorite. It's my absolute favorite. I love yearning. I think more yearning in 2026, please. Like, where are the men standing in the rain screaming, they'll make love to you. Like, where did those guys go? And what is so beautiful about the heated rivalry series is that it is the convention of romance. So welcome everybody who maybe didn't want to read romance before. This is how wonderful it can be. Every time you read a romance novel to kind of piggyback on what you were saying, Chelsea, you have this situation where these men are vulnerable. They're willing to explore, like, look internally, okay, I fucked up. What was that? In this situation, they don't turn to their friends necessarily because they're closeted. Right. So they can't really have that conversation. But men in romance in general tend to have sex. Somebody, someone to talk to. They self reflect. They learn from their mistakes. They come back and say, I'm so sorry. I've learned. I won't do it again. There's a reason why women are feral for book boyfriends. Because they are safe men. They do not present violence in any way. And you can just sort of be like, this is the dream, because it is because a woman wrote a man.
- [11:13]
D
Amen, Julia.
- [11:16]
E
A woman.
- [11:17]
A
That is so well said. And yeah, you, you were like men in general. And I was like, wait, what do you mean? And I realized you were talking about book men. Men in romance. Book in general.
- [11:26]
E
Men in romance.
- [11:26]
A
Fictional men in general. Fictional men. No. Okay, so let's go into our first bucket series highlights. Kenzie, I'm going to ask you first, just what is one big highlight from this show for you?
- [11:38]
D
I'm going to pick a scene because I think it encapsulates how I really feel about the show. And it's the bathroom scene after the Vegas. To me, that's where the entire show changed for me. I was like, first of all, they're doomed. They're doomed.
- [11:53]
E
It's love.
- [11:54]
D
And by doomed, I mean they're doomed.
- [11:55]
A
To be in love.
- [11:56]
D
Like, there's no way.
- [11:57]
A
Will you describe it a little for anyone who's trying to remember this this.
- [12:00]
D
Scene is after they haven't talked to each other for, like, six months or something like that, and they have to go do an awards show in Vegas. This is right after Ilya comes in. And Shane is like, where have you been? And there's a little bit of, like, jealousy.
- [12:12]
E
And he's like, where you with?
- [12:14]
D
And Ilya smiles. It's beautiful. Anyway, they transition into the award show, and then from there, Shane is very clearly about to have a fucking panic attack. So he goes into the bathroom. From the minute he walks into the bathroom. This scene is a masterpiece. It's a masterpiece. Look at power and play between not only actors, but storytellers. And it's incredibly acted. Hudson never lets a teardrop. But they're there the entire time. The stakes have never been higher for them to be in love and have a breakdown. And so he's in the bathroom checking on her thing. Ilya comes in immediately because he can't wait. He's got to see him. He comes in immediately, and then Ilya's trying to keep it cool. The minute that Ilya touches him, he melts. I've never seen something feel so recognizable in my body. My head tips up every time because I'm just like. I'm kind of go comatose. It's incredible. It's incredible. And they just. They have this power play. But you also know that they are weak for each other. It's the most incredible, vulnerable thing. And you see them get angry. I've seen men get angry. I've seen men yell, okay, totally fine, boring. Been there, done that. But then you watch that melt. I mean, it's a masterclass. It's a masterclass in storytelling. The shots are not even full coverage. And yet so much is told, so much is said. It's hot. It's also devastating. It's devastating. And I watch it. To feel heartbreak and feel alive.
- [13:40]
A
That is stunning. Rod, I'm throwing to you. What's a highlight for you?
- [13:44]
C
Highlight for me definitely is episode five in general. I think that is one of the best episodes of television that I have seen this year and just in a long time in general, but specifically the scene where Ilya has his Russian monologue.
- [14:00]
A
And.
- [14:01]
C
And I think it is just so beautiful and heartbreaking, like, the way he's talking about his family. And it's like all things that we have sort of, like, have been set up and we've seen, but, like, Ilia has been the rock, the stone face. He's not really giving us any emotion. We've seen Little bits of Shane start to sort of crack. And, like, I want to be with you, or like, you didn't kiss me. But, like, this is our first time really getting to, like, see that Ilya. He is down bad for Shane, and we sort of. We get a taste of that when he was worrying about what's going on with him and Rose. But, like, this is the first time we see that. Also, Moonlight Sonata playing while he's in the moonlight. Please, please, please.
- [14:40]
A
The music is so good. The way they have cues with each other. Like, there's that sunshine monologue and then the sunshine song in the ice and Moonlight Sonata. What you were just saying, keep going.
- [14:50]
C
In episode five, there really isn't any music with lyrics. Like, a lot of it is just instrumental, which, like, has to do sort of, I think, with, like, the. The storytelling and them trying to show. This is, like, where they're actually starting to, like, say what they feel. Even the acting. Like, he deserves an Emmy for that scene alone.
- [15:10]
A
And I heard he learned it in three weeks.
- [15:12]
D
He learned it in three weeks.
- [15:14]
A
Yeah, I. I read this quote. Maybe it was GQ or something. But Jacob Tierney, the showrunner, is listening to him do this four page monologue in Russian. And after a really good take, he turns to the dialect coach and is like, o God, oh, my God, how much of that can I use? And the dialect coach goes, all of it. He humbles me.
- [15:35]
D
Can you believe that Adrien Brody won an Academy Award for an accent he had to have AI fix for him.
- [15:41]
E
Right?
- [15:41]
D
And this. This bitch spent three weeks, three weeks studying Russian.
- [15:46]
E
And everyone's like, give it to him.
- [15:48]
D
He's Russian, I guess.
- [15:51]
E
Have you heard him speak French? Because that also sounds like a native French speaker.
- [15:57]
A
Christina, if you could pipe in some French in this episode right here, that would be great. Okay, Julia, take us to your series highlight for you, I think.
- [16:10]
E
Gosh, I don't know how to top those two or how to come with after those.
- [16:14]
A
You can. You can power bottom them both.
- [16:17]
E
Yeah.
- [16:18]
D
Way to go, Chelsea. Way to go with that.
- [16:20]
A
Thank you.
- [16:21]
C
Get in the spirit. Get in the spirit, love.
- [16:23]
A
I'm here.
- [16:24]
E
I'm here.
- [16:24]
D
I'm here for the girls.
- [16:27]
A
Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now, and we'll be right back. When I went on the book tour, people were always surprised at how tall I was, even though on this podcast, they say that I'm tall, but I'm five' eight, and Quince's wide leg pants are perfect for me. So if you are a tall gal and you're looking for a wide leg pant that's not gonna look so weird because it's like an inch and a half too short. You get to choose a longer inseam on quints. I love their wide leg pants. I have three pairs at this point. Quince has all the staples covered from soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces without the markup to 100% silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up. And like everything from quints, each piece is made with premium materials and ethical trusted factories, then priced far below what other luxury brands charge. And I got my husband this cool corduroy shirt jacket that he's loving. There's only a few places where I can order something for him and something for me and Quince is one of them. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait. Go to Quince.comGlamorous for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N C E.comGlamorous to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comGlamorous okay, a very fancy cool actress taught me this trick, which is that when you're getting on a Zoom but you're so tired and you didn't shower and maybe you didn't wash your face. Okay, we all have tough mornings. All you have to do is put on a bold lift. And the way the Zoom video works, it makes you look like you have a full face of makeup on. I can't tell you how many times this has worked. Show your confidence in lipstick form and use Empower Matte Precision Lipstick Crayon from Thrive. The crayon is so smooth and buildable. It's like a thick lip liner but also a lipstick. I love it so much. I am extremely lazy but also like to look nice. Hence the name glamorous trash. And so the Precision Lipstick Crayon is my favorite thing in the morning. To slap it on, go into a meeting, pretend I've been awake the whole morning. Amplify your everyday go to thrivecosmetics.com glamorous for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S E M E t I c s.com glamorous and it's cosmetics because every purchase donates to a very important cause so you can be sure that where you're spending your money is going to great places, including your lipstick shade. Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation.
- [19:07]
E
So one of my favorite tropes is sex before love. I don't know why. So this is just an overall kind of favorite thing about the show, the way they give us the sex before love and how it unfolds and how it's so slow. Like, for me, in episode one, Shane walks up to Ilia, and I was like, that boy is gone. He fell first. Fucking love it. Fucking love it when they fall first.
- [19:34]
D
Amen, Julia. Amen.
- [19:37]
E
And so then to watch Ilia just sort of slowly, like, get a little softer and softer and softer. And then for anyone who's read the books, like, you know just how important this progression is because to jump on the face acting, because. Sorry to keep bringing up the book, but in the book, Ilya is just like, I have to break up with this guy. Like, this is gonna end bad. Like, we can't do this. And to see that on Connor's story, on his face, every time he's pained, every time he's like, I'm falling harder and harder with every shot, after every interaction. And you can just see it on his face. He's falling harder and harder, and it's getting hard on him. And you're just like, I love it when a guy falls first.
- [20:22]
A
Wow. Yeah. To see book pages through the acting, that is a real feat.
- [20:28]
E
I think it was Hudson that did an interview that said, you have to get to know the character in order to be the character. Like, you can have the words or whatever, but, like, you have to know the character. And they really did spend time getting to know these two characters before portraying them on screen. And it shows because when you read the book, you're just like, shit, this is verbatim.
- [20:47]
A
I also want to call out that sometimes I feel like with great art, we hear like, it's like, oh, my God. I'm not calling this great art, but you hear stories of, like, Jared Leto being like, I went method as the fucking whatever. He played the joker, and he was like. And so I sent convice full of blood to my castmates for years, like, whatever, right? That, like, the art is, like, going method or living in it or whatever. And they did their craft to the fullest. And also they were cast a week before production began. And I just want to honor the possibilities when you are really dedicated to the craft and the arts in a healthy way.
- [21:23]
C
Weren't they like, waiters?
- [21:24]
D
Yes, they were.
- [21:25]
C
Sounds like, weren't they waiters?
- [21:27]
D
Were literally. They both were waiters and then quit their job, like, A day before, like, it literally, this show took dream come true. Really?
- [21:35]
A
Yes.
- [21:35]
D
It jumped onto something that the industry tells you to never do, which is to never book unknowns, never make a show with no money. You have to have celebs. And intimacy coordinating is just like a side thing. And like, the cinematic camera techniques are just like, for. That's for Breaking Bad and for other shows. And it's like they did everything everyone says in the industry to not invest in, and they invested. And it. It's coming back tenfold, babe. It's coming back.
- [22:01]
A
It snaps to that. And yeah, invested. They invested in it. Like, you could have said, like, oh, I have a week before the show starts. It's whatever, on whatever network. I'm not going to learn Russian. And instead it's like, this matters. This matters.
- [22:12]
D
So cool.
- [22:13]
A
So I'm going to bring up one of my series highlights, which is I want to say that I know that hot, hot, hot, hot sex and smutty nastiness is often used as a way to dismiss the romance genre of, like, it's just smut, it's just sex. And it's so much more than that. So I just want to honor that sentence and say it so much more than that when I say, oh, my God, the sex was so hot. And I just like, listen, I never seen shit like that. I didn't see that on Bridgerton.
- [22:43]
D
Okay?
- [22:44]
A
So I just.
- [22:47]
E
Bridgerton could never.
- [22:49]
D
Bridgerton is begging to try.
- [22:53]
A
Like, obviously, it's about so much more. However, this is very cringe and I'm sorry to do it, but it's just. It's so in my brain, I feel like I have to, which is that I'm actually taking out a romance show, right? And part of the huge discussion I've been having and part of the pitch is that it has to have really hot fudgeing sex.
- [23:11]
C
Let him fuck Chelsea.
- [23:13]
A
Give. Make them fuck. And I was going to. I was pulling images and I was pulling, like, true blood clips, you know, where he, like, comes out of the grave and they have, like, dirt set.
- [23:22]
D
Yeah.
- [23:22]
A
And then I was like, I was thinking of, like, that. That opening scene in Shameless where, like, there's like three seconds of where you can tell his dick entered her and she loved it. But it's like, those have nothing unheeded rivalry. And I personally feel like in, you know, working in the industry, there was this headline of, like, no one wants sex anymore and, like, no one wants love anymore. And like, there was, like, one study about Gen Z not dating and they were like, abort all sex. And it's like the number one thing in the world. Like every technological innovation, I'm pretty sure is powered by the desire and want for sex. Like, why would we not want sex on our TVs? And I think to see it done so beautifully.
- [24:02]
E
Hot.
- [24:02]
A
Like you said, the cinema is present, the ass is perfect. The consent is like, part of the horniness. I was just like, God, I wish we could have more of this.
- [24:12]
C
And it was the tension and the yearning. Like that water bottle scene when they're working. Like, that was foreplay. Like, that was like that added to when they finally do the do. We're like, oh, my God, like a release. Like, we've been waiting for this.
- [24:27]
D
Yeah, I do. I really want to shout out the intimacy coordinating here because I do, genuinely. Also, because as of recently, a good friend of mine is an intimacy coordinator. Shout out Sasha Smith, an incredible intimacy coordinator that just was a part of, like, the six people who got them unionized. Like, they weren't even unionized until this past year. Like, we have not even thought about sex as a part of an artistic endeavor in film ever. Until fairly recently. And now. Thank you. I think her name is Chala Hunter. Is the intimacy coordinator on Heated Rivalry. And I just gotta say, like, she's doing the work because it's not only protecting, like, our gorgeous, beautiful, yearning sex scenes, but it's also, like, protecting the actors. And, like, they don't know each other and now they gotta, like, make out. I mean, this is a big act ask. This show is a big ask of two actors who don't have huge names, who don't have the most experience. This is a lot to be like, hey, why don't you be nude the entire show and then be so hot that everyone is in their DMs freaking each other out about it.
- [25:26]
A
Oh, I am so shook thinking about their DMs. No, but you're right, Kenzie. This show is a big ass.
- [25:32]
E
Okay, okay.
- [25:34]
A
So I can. Please, Julia.
- [25:36]
E
Can I say, though, there's a lot of romance books out there that have no sex at all.
- [25:39]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [25:40]
E
But in a romance book, sex is used as a tool as part of, like, their story. There's plot, right? Like, the way we see it in Heated Rivalry, they're using the sex as a way to show us more about these.
- [25:52]
A
That's real life.
- [25:53]
D
That's real life.
- [25:54]
E
And that's her life. And so, like, there's a huge conversation in the romance world in the last five years. I just Want to say romance has really blown up.
- [26:01]
A
Right.
- [26:02]
E
Like, it's been around forever, but, like, independent romance only bookstores have been opening up. It's crazy, but I think a lot of what's happening is people are confusing, like, where the term smut originated from the conventions of romance, and then also erotica, which all of them serve a purpose. They all are valid. With that said, speaking within the last five years, there's been this, like, weird convergence where people don't know how to separate them all.
- [26:29]
A
Yeah.
- [26:30]
E
So there's this idea that it's like, it must be sexy. You have to have sex. But when you talk to a romance reader about the sex scenes, they'll tell you, this shouldn't have been in the book if it wasn't a good scene, if it doesn't help the story and the plot or character development in some way. And I think that's another part of why I love to hear the rivalry so much. Because you get so much from these boys when they're in these situations and they're learning so much about them.
- [26:53]
D
Yes.
- [26:54]
A
Well, and this is something I bring up on the podcast a lot, which is like, what if I said all cop shows are the same? Starsky and Hutt, same as Task on hbo? Or if I said, like, everyone loves cop shows because they like guns, and you'd be like, okay, well, that's. Whatever.
- [27:08]
F
Great.
- [27:09]
A
But granted, I'm making, like, a weird comparison, but I totally agree with you, Julia. Like, I feel like romance is seen extremely monolithic and extremely, like, it is one thing everyone's lumped together versus this idea of, like, there's so many people that are never gonna read the heated rivalry books because they specifically read, like, Romantasy or something else, or they like the spicier level. And it's like, I feel like, yeah, you're right. There's. There's so many people who, like, don't know the nuances of it, who are becoming to know all of them, myself included. I like. I learn stuff about it all the time.
- [27:37]
D
And some of us are 900th in line at the library to get the books. So that's why we haven't read it. We're 900th in line.
- [27:46]
A
So I want to move into our second category, which I'm calling why Do We Love Their Love? Just really pulling it apart. Why did this love story do so well? And I want to specifically talk about the dynamics of writing, portraying a great love story on screen. And I was just thinking quickly about how the show. Nobody wants this which totally different than this romance show. But that blew up because of Adam and Kristen's chemistry. And it felt like the first time in a while where chemistry was happening on screen between two romantic leads. And it mattered just as much, if not more than the plot and how far we've gone away from even just wanting, like true palpable chemistry from the people falling in love when we cast things. And so that would be like one tiny thing all throughout, which is like, those two have fucking chemistry. But there's so much beyond that. Julia, talk to me about the slow burn yearn and like, why do you think the nation loves their love?
- [28:50]
E
Oh, I can't speak to the nation, but I can speak for myself. So for me, I think it's like you're building this tiny little foundation without realizing you're building a foundation of your relationship. So like every time they're interacting with each other, they learn something new about each other. Even though Ilya is like giving him monosyllabic answers, maybe struggling with understanding because English is a second language, you're still getting like this little tiny, like emotional connection that just feels so authentic and beautiful. Thank you for saying this is gonna be spoiler filled. Because at the end, in the last three episodes, 4, 5 and 6, you get these tiny moments from Ilia where he is very compassionate, very much in love with Shane. He's doing these tiny little micro movements, like Shane's stressed out, tapping the gear shift on the car. Ilya puts his hand over it to be like, I got you, right? Like it's a non verbal action that feels so comforting, so intimate and like, I see you, I understand you, I hear you. And we all just want to be safe, loved and wanted. And they're showing us this is how you grow into being safe, loved and wanted. And there's also that little moment too where he like just like leans down and like kisses his fingers. Like, I see you. So it's like these tiny little micro moments that you don't just dive into because in the beginning you have these nerves like, oh, I think you're hot. There's something carnal here because I'd love to of your face on my face. And then it grows into, oh, shit, this started carnal. But now there's things about you that are just I can't live without. Yeah. And now I know I want that forever.
- [30:27]
A
I think the micro moments is such a great way to say it in that like with every love story, every love you've ever had, there's probably a thousand Plot points within the first four months. And this show is giving you each of those little plot points. Where I feel like lots of romance shows skip from like, they met another fucking and now he's mad versus, like there's like a thousand moments in between. And they're really playing each story beat.
- [30:50]
D
And they gave, they gave reverence to those moments. Those, those itty bitty little moments that you wouldn't think of mattering. Do you know what I mean? But like, when Ilya laughs because Shane's folding his clothes. Cause he's just taking off his clothes and Ilya's like laughing like they're just like little. There's like little things. You're seeing the in between that most things don't tell us.
- [31:11]
A
Yeah, the in between.
- [31:12]
E
Yeah. Jacob Tierney talks about that in an interview and he was like, if this were a movie, those moments would have been a 10 minute montage and you wouldn't have had the same payoff in the end. He was not interested in telling that version.
- [31:24]
A
Yeah. Oh, and thank God he didn't. Rod, what do you see when you watch? And also, like, my algorithm is mostly women being like, rod, what's on your algorithm? Why do you love it? Like, what do you think it is about this love story?
- [31:37]
C
Well, all my queer, like, all my gay friends are like very into this show. Everybody's down. It's not just the girls, it's the gays as well. We see it. But I think for me specifically, it is the emotional ping pong that they're doing. The entire. The push and pull. As someone who's been in a similar situation where you are dating someone that either you are the one who it has to be in secret or they are the ones that it has to be in secret, or both. We've seen this play out and more times than not, they're not going out onto the field and professing their love to you in front of everyone. That's not what's happening. And so sort of getting to take a peek into this world where you sort of get to live in that fantasy is both incredible but also scary. Cause I think about little Rod and I'm like, if I had saw this growing up, would I just be out here just dating a bunch of DL men? Because I'm like, maybe he'll love me. He'll love me. He probably won't.
- [32:36]
A
Maybe he'll walk into work and shout my name.
- [32:39]
C
Yeah, but it's like, really like they're having sex like pros, but like, they can't have conversations. And like, that is something that is so prevalent, like just like in the gay community. And I don't want to be like blanket statement, like, oh, like, you guys be fucking too much. But like a lot of us be like having sex and like not really getting to that emotional core. And so like, to see this sort of slow burn of them, like start to slip in and like really open up was just like so satisfying but like, it also just felt so genuine.
- [33:12]
A
Yeah, that really speaks to me too. And yes, not speaking in generalities, but like, if we were to stereotype, we would say, you know, it's like that is not how things always go with women. And I think that's also maybe a part of the fantasy as a woman watching it that like it. I'm sorry because Chelsea, in a 10 year situationship where we once every six months, like, I've probably driven my car into your garage, like halfway through episode one and I'm dead and the show's over.
- [33:37]
D
If Shane and Ilya were lesbians, we would have started at the cottage and.
- [33:40]
E
Then by the end of it we.
- [33:42]
D
Would be back at episode one where they're getting kinky. This is different. This is different. We're looking at like, because I was in, I did a situationship that was long distance and I'm telling you, we were I love yous in a month, a single month. And we were, we saw each other maybe three times.
- [33:56]
E
Like, this is different.
- [33:57]
D
This is like an obviously different time. Like I was not in the NHL and neither were they. So like, we were not hiding anything. But there is something so interesting just to circle back on what you read at the top. Like, that is the patriarchy part of it is like they can't be together right away. That's why we get tension and yearning built into this story, is because there is an actual social guard that stops them from being fully out and open. And I mean, it's not just that. It's also Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia. And like, you know, there's, there's things that kind of feed that yearning thing that we all really identify with. It's also on a micro level where they also don't understand how their emotions are working anyway. Like Rod was saying, like, like sometimes you just be having sex and that's really what's happening. But to be able to allow, to watch the people who allow themselves to get on an emotional level and really like feel the burn, but are also like caged by the modicum of patriarchy and like homophobia, that's the thing that also aids to their will.
- [34:58]
A
They won't.
- [34:59]
D
They will they, won't they? And it feels like it's a crazy thing to be talking about in, like, 20. 20, 26. 2026, that, like, we're all obsessed with this thing. I just can't believe it hasn't happened sooner, you know, I can't believe it hasn't happened sooner.
- [35:14]
E
And they're teenagers when they first meet. So, like, on top of all of the stuff with the professional sports of it all, do they even actually know themselves already? Because, like, I know at 17, who I was at 17 is not who I am today. And like, in, like, in my definitions of love or wait, are they 17?
- [35:32]
A
I thought they were 19 when they first meet.
- [35:34]
E
They're 18 when they first meet. But that's also like a really tough place to be in because you're 18 in a high profile role with sport.
- [35:43]
A
Your families are financially depending on your success.
- [35:46]
E
So like, that's added to it as well. So, like, they can't just be guys from Ottawa figuring out their sexuality. They're high profile guys having to figure out their sexuality.
- [35:58]
D
There are athletes now who are coming out to be like, I watched the show and I went into a full, like, trauma episode because I knew exactly what was happening. This was me when, I don't know, ran track or I watched a video today of this guy who was on a soccer team. And I mean, like, brutal. It's just like, so insane to think that we're watching this. And it is like, we're all like. But that's crazy because all the, you know, the gays, the girls and the days are all, we're in love with it. But it's like, well, that's crazy. But this is a very real. This is still a very real thing.
- [36:31]
A
There's no one, as far as I know, and Christina will cut this if it's not true. But, like, there's no one who's like a big, huge star hockey player who is currently out. No, they had their entire moment. Yeah.
- [36:43]
E
Right.
- [36:44]
A
And so, yeah, so it is. It is still very pressing.
- [36:47]
E
Can I also just say I love.
- [36:48]
A
That I learned nothing about hockey and it's a hockey show.
- [36:51]
C
Nothing.
- [36:52]
A
I'm not sure. So hockey fans weigh in. But I do think if you were a hockey fan, you enjoyed it. Like, you weren't like, that's not how you hit a puck. Or like, you were like, center is the correct position. Like, I do think if you were a hockey fan, you watched it and you were like, yes, that is hockey. But if you weren't a hockey fan, like, you didn't have to learn anything.
- [37:07]
D
Yeah, there's a podcast of, like, three straight dudes.
- [37:10]
E
Empty netters.
- [37:11]
D
Yes. And they just be talking about this. They're just talking about this now.
- [37:18]
A
Christina just came in to say they've gotten critiques on their skating and how poorly they skate. But who cares about your skating?
- [37:23]
C
They're amazing skaters.
- [37:28]
A
Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. I am your host, Stassi Schroeder. Welcome to Tell Me Lies, the official podcast. What's the most unhinged thing of season three? Steven. Because he's so evil.
- [37:44]
C
I do think he is misunderstood.
- [37:46]
E
You see everyone face consequences.
- [37:48]
A
It's intoxicating. The writers just know how to trick ya. There's always a twist in this show.
- [37:53]
E
It's nothing you would expect.
- [37:55]
A
Tell Me Lies the official podcast January 6th. And stream the new new season of tell me lies January 13th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.
- [38:04]
G
Hey, it's Brooklyn Adams, and I'm partnering with Abercrombie to tell you about the newest drop from their active brand. Your personal best. YPB leggings are made with buttery soft fabrics that hug you in all the right places. And come in Abercrombie's viral curve love fit, designed to eliminate waist gap, paired with sports bras and super soft sweatshirts. It's activewear that supports every part of my busy lifestyle and gives me my best butt ever. Head into the new year feeling your personal best Shop Active by Abercrombie in the app, online and in stores.
- [38:36]
A
Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. Okay, so I want to move into my third category, which I am calling the second fantasy. Because there was something else happening for me where I was like, I am burning. I'm burning. I'm, like, shaking by what this show has done. And finally, my friend Claudia obviously sent me a 7 minute voicemail about how much she loves the show. And she articulated something that I realized I'm feeling, which is the second fantasy this show is fulfilling, which has nothing to do with the love or the sex with anything. It's that people really want good, specific television shows. And we want romance and we want good art and we don't care how much it costs. And if you actually have a chance to do something good, we are all, all here. We will all show up. We will make you the most popular show within seconds.
- [39:29]
E
Yeah.
- [39:29]
A
And when anyone is like, who knew this show would blow up. I've heard people say that. I go, me and anyone looking at the data, yeah, anyone with a fucking brain looking at the numbers of shows that are made for women, the amount of romance fandom, the shows that are made for gay men, like anybody could have told you this. And the fact that Crave was willing to put in $2 and 36 days to make this show and that everyone showed up, the production designers, the cinematographer, the actors, the showrunner, the writers, everyone showed up with their craft to make something excellent. And in a world where they can tell you, like, they won't take a chance on shows that are not for straight men or blah, blah, it's just like, yes, they will. Yes, it will be successful. And that is the second fantasy it's fulfilling for me, which is like watching everyone show up for a piece of really good art. And I'm just like, like Parade. I'm like, I'm edging, I'm edging on the idea that our industry will change a little bit, that they will go, you know what, let's take a fucking chance. Let's not fuck it up. Like when Jacob Tierney was told, like, hey, make more entry points for women. And he was like, go fuck yourselves. And then like, the number one watcher of the show are women, right? I'm curious if anyone else is as horny for this idea that it's changing the industry as I am. Roger, TV executive, please.
- [40:49]
C
Yeah, well, I, I feel like this really understood that emotional repression and romance are something that is universal and that women already love this ip and it's not luck. This is something that is already happening and it just really tells you that the material had to be undeniable because in an environment where everyone is so risk averse, this was able to cut through because the voice was clear, the execution was confident. As Julia was saying, they stood 10 toes down in the material and didn't feel like they needed to like, conform to like the things, you know, the things that like crazy executives like in Hollywood sort of want you to change and like feel like you need to do to cut through to the audience.
- [41:33]
A
I mean, can I just say a real thing I've been told before, Add a character to this show that a middle aged white man in Michigan will like.
- [41:42]
E
Yikes, right?
- [41:43]
A
A show that has nothing to do with anything. And so, Rod, please keep going.
- [41:46]
C
This show really trusts the audience. And I think like, trust is everything. And I think the show gives you fantasy, but it doesn't lie about the cost of secrecy. And like, that's why I feel like it really works. Like, they really dive in and, like, stand 10 toes down in, like, what they wanted to do with this show.
- [42:04]
A
But do you think they were allowed to do that because it was on Crave in Canada with a showrunner who had proven himself on other shows and that the books existed? Because I just. It's hard for me to imagine that setup happening outside of those.
- [42:17]
D
Yeah.
- [42:17]
A
Circumstances.
- [42:18]
D
We had A League of Their Own. We had a League of Their Own. We had an entire incredible lesbian focused fucking incredible sports show. And we didn't get it because the. This was. What happened was that it was from the top down a problem. Like, they. They were constantly giving notes.
- [42:33]
B
They.
- [42:33]
D
I mean, they burned out everybody and they just burned the show. But the fans were there, the people were there, the lesbians were there.
- [42:40]
A
Like, it was.
- [42:41]
D
We were all present. But was it. It's the industry.
- [42:44]
A
I don't really know much about that show, but I do remember I was in the offices where they had thrown away season one and they'd started again. So whatever happened for A League of Their Own. But that. That's very different than, like, a singular voice like Jacob Tierney taking the books, working with Rachel and like, making a show authentic to this story versus trying to please everyone. And also, like you said, Rod, like, the market data exists. Like, even if you just look at book fans.
- [43:13]
D
Yeah.
- [43:13]
A
For like, let's say you're making a show for it. By the way, welcome to my pitch. If you're making a show and you're only going to please 10% of the motherfuckers on Booktok, guess what? You have a hit. Like, just go find the people who have not been served the content they're dying for.
- [43:29]
C
I want to work in this town, so I don't want to like shit on Hollywood too much. But this show is an embarrassment. Wait a minute, wait a minute.
- [43:34]
A
Am I on it too much to not work in here? Because I need my nose.
- [43:37]
C
This show is an embarrassment to the Hollywood studio system and the networks and, like, everything that they've done, like the fact that they were able to, like, make this with these. The biggest thing for me is the casting. Nobody's. You don't need to put every single. The same five, six people that we see in everything. 80% of the budget is going to, like, above the line casting. Like, no. Find talented people, get a great story and lean in.
- [44:09]
A
Standing ovation. Standing ovation to find talented people and lean the fuck in. Because that casting conversation where they're like, well, someone so brings a name. It's like, oh, my God. Talent will actually do it, my friends. Talent will make your show popular.
- [44:24]
E
And I don't think it would work as well if we had, like, a preconceived notion about one of the leads.
- [44:31]
A
Timothy Chalamet and Kid Cudi as Shane Hollander. But you know what, Rod? I also want to say, like, I think this town, like, and people who listen to this podcast, like, I think they agree, like, it's not like execs disagree with this. Like, there's a top down.
- [44:48]
C
What are we doing, y'?
- [44:49]
A
All? Yeah, like, like it's like that overarching. Like, I hope the money and the numbers of this show change that. That sort of top level idea so that everyone working in this industry gets to do what we want to do, which is like, like make some good shit. Okay. Yeah, go ahead, Ken.
- [45:05]
D
Well, I was gonna say art is made by singular minds with singular vision. And not just singular, but like a collective.
- [45:11]
A
Like, they.
- [45:11]
D
They got artists involved to create a collective vision with a singular goal. It's not made by committees. Sorry. Art is not made by a board of directors. Art is not made by, you know, money at the top.
- [45:24]
A
I'm sorry.
- [45:25]
D
It's just like, no, we need to invest in, like, the. These very specific, incredible visions with people who want to watch them.
- [45:32]
A
Yeah, yeah. And take casting chances.
- [45:35]
D
I'm begging.
- [45:36]
A
I want to underline. I'm begging you.
- [45:38]
C
Begging you find.
- [45:41]
A
And also, this is so dorky, but, like, when you get sent out these lists of people who could, like, open a movie or whatever, if you're going for someone around 30, there's 10 women and there's 10 men, and they just send them to you over and over and over and over again. The same people over and over again. And I had this thought that made me sad, which is like, yay, we got two new boys. Like, because now Connor and Hudson will get to be in other shows and movies and whatever, but because we used to make stars like that, we need.
- [46:11]
C
To bring the girls too. I like the girls.
- [46:13]
A
Yes, yes. Well and absolutely. I mean, listen, let's. Okay, well, let's. Let me take. Let's go into our final category. First of all, there are three women there who are like, like, go be free. Find sunshine.
- [46:24]
D
The best written women I've ever seen on television.
- [46:25]
A
I've seen your penis. And I wanted to have a better time and how it's doing over here.
- [46:30]
D
Amen.
- [46:30]
A
And all three of them, but they're all written Specifically, they all feel like different types of women. Like you can all feel their, like their sex life and interest the women on the show. Aspirational. Aspirational.
- [46:43]
E
And that's how they are in the book too. Really.
- [46:48]
A
Okay, let's go into my final category, which is thorny questions. Okay, so Kenzie, you'd kind of talked about this, so I'll start with you. Why has a lesbian or hetero romance show like this? So I'm not talking about Bridgerton, I'm talking about like the same amount of romance to story, to smut, to elevation. Why has a show like this not broken through? Can it, could it, did it? And did I miss it? Kenzie, I throw it at you.
- [47:20]
D
God, I don't want to be a mouthpiece for all the, you know, lesbians.
- [47:24]
A
Out there, but I said heterose as well in there.
- [47:27]
D
But I'm going to say this, I'm going to say this. It's not that we haven't tried. It's not that we haven't tried. It's that I think that there is fully this mistrust and disinterest in what women are interested in. And that goes for straight women as well as queer women. So like, like watching stories between two women is few and far between also, because I really just mean this, like patriarchy is kind of woven in and if you want to have a story without it, we can't, that can't exist. But can you imagine? Let me just set the scene. We're in our dms. I'm in a group chat with a ton of women talking nasty, nasty about my TV boyfriends, Ilia and Shane. A if two men, three men, four men who are not gay got in a group chat to talk about how these hot lesbians are on tv, I would riot, riot because it's different. There is something, there's innately an imbalance there. I believe that it can exist. I've seen incredible queer and hetero romances. I've seen them. They, they're. They do exist. But there is something to be said for I, I really think about how freeing this series has been for people to watch something masculinity vulnerable is an incredible. Everyone's got a little, everyone's a little, got a little mask in them. So to see that and identify with that on a personal level as that I see in myself as well as see in a gender that I very rarely, unless they're my queer friends, I don't see a lot of masculinity being soft and falling in love with each other. I just want my guy friends, my straight guy friends to maybe hold each other's hands and kiss each other on the cheek. I'm begging, so you know what I mean? I feel like there's something. It's novel as well as. I think for women. We're in an uphill battle because it's not just about. We need incredible storytelling. I also feel like the world that we live in also hinders the art itself. That's true.
- [49:28]
A
Oh, wow. Wow. Okay. That's really layered. Julia, Rod, same question.
- [49:33]
E
So coming from a bookseller perspective, we sell, like, Sapphic. Just doesn't fly off the shelf at our bookstore. We sprinkle in the LGBTQ stories with Roman. Like, it's not. We don't have a separate section for it. It's all just in there. And so when somebody comes in asking, 90% of the time, they're asking for Eminem. And so we have to. If we're selling Sapphic, it's because we've hand sold it. It's because we've said, this book is good.
- [50:00]
A
Read it.
- [50:00]
E
And because we have a relationship with our customer base. They do. But it just doesn't sell the same. And I don't. We were talking about it yesterday, actually, and we just. We don't know why that is. I. I don't know if it's because you can't, like, as a woman, you're reading about women. You can't remove yourself from, like, comparing or what, whatever it is. I don't know. But it is really frustrating because there are some really good books out there. But the. There's more guy on guy than there is Sapphic.
- [50:31]
A
I'm gonna. This is. This is really fascinating. I'm gonna go to you, Rod and Julia, while I'm talking. Rod, will you think of a Sapphic book that you wish someone would make into a TV show, and I'll come back to you.
- [50:42]
C
Okay, Rod, the two things that come to mind for me are. Definitely speaks to what Kinsey was saying. But, like, I think that people, women specifically, want to see men objectified. If you have a show where, like, women are, like, you know, hooking up all the time, great, but, like, men's objectification of women is inherently just a little bit darker than the other way around. And the other thing is, I think that man on man is so much more taboo than woman on woman. Just, like, in the history of, like, television in general, women kissing and, like, women sort of, like, being a little more intimate has always been a Little more acceptable and even think about, like, bisexuality. Bisexuality amongst women, it's way more acceptable. Whereas, like, if. If I was a bisexual man, it would be a lot more difficult for me to have equal relations with both men and women because I would be seen as a gay man, even though, you know, if I was legitimately into women. So I think that that definitely, like, speaks to why, you know, people are like, oh, this is intense. Like this, man on man, you know?
- [51:53]
D
Totally agree.
- [51:54]
A
I mean, I was in Chicago, which means I'm at least 22, and I'm at a gay club or drag bar or something, and all the screens are playing gay porn. And I looked, you know, just as, like, in the background, like, while we were, like, eating wings or whatever. And I looked up and I was like, oh, my God, this is the hottest, hottest porn I've ever seen. Because. And Grant, look, I'm not a porn expert, but, like, even now, if I were to type something in, it's like, I. It's like a shot of, like, the grossest man's grossest hairy, sweaty back and, like, an inch of his, like, sweaty. Focusing on, like, dick hitting, like, woman or whatever. And this was the first time I'd seen, like, oh, like, everyone's, like, waxed. Like, it's like a nice pan up the ass. And I'm talking about objectifying men.
- [52:38]
D
Do you know what I mean?
- [52:39]
A
Where it's like, shots where it's like, we do want your ass to look nice. We would like to see your face. I'd like your face to not look like you're a serial killer. That would be hot to me. And that exists. That exists in. In a lot of gay porn of, like, let's make men hot. Whereas in a lot of straight porn, at least the links I'm clicking, you got something better, send it to me.
- [52:59]
D
Don't do that.
- [52:59]
A
Don't fuck up my social media. But oftentimes the man can be, like, a hideous fucking cow. And I don't know what their faces look like because they cut them off, right? Just to show, like, poundage or whatever. So I think. I think you're really hitting that. Sorry, you guys. Like, we gotta be honest. I do think you're really hitting on something important, which is the objectification of the male body, which is something that's also very hot to women, but often only occurs in this MTM space. So I'm gonna say that I absolutely believe and know that more of these shows could happen with other genders and sexualities. I want to play a clip from an interview with showrunner Jacob Tierney on the podcast Spare Parts. He did this interview. The clip went viral, and I want to play that clip to prove that point.
- [53:46]
F
That was what was so interesting about diving into this world, was discovering. And I don't think this is because I'm gay. I think this is because as a culture, there is so little interest taken in what pleases women, what interests women. And I think sexually, especially because people are afraid of it and they don't.
- [54:04]
C
Want to deal with it.
- [54:05]
F
And so if you go into this world of, like, what.
- [54:08]
C
What women want?
- [54:09]
F
Well, yeah, kind of like. Well, like, look at them. They're writing it, they're reading it. So it's like, this is. Clearly there's an audience for this and is. There's something counterintuitive about it. But I think it's only counterintuitive because of the general lack of interest we take culturally in anything that women like.
- [54:27]
A
Right. Like is. I just feel like that said it so well. Okay, Julia, is there a Sapphic book that comes to mind where you're like, somebody out there should get the motherfucking ip and.
- [54:37]
E
And it's a series, so you've got three. Three character, like, three story options. But the first book is called Delilah Green Doesn't Care, and it's by Ashley Herring Blake.
- [54:47]
D
I just ordered Julia.
- [54:50]
E
Yay. I love that for you, actually. And order the next two also, because Astrid, we love her. Maybe question mark? I don't know. But it takes place in the Pacific Northwest, which is always kind of a fun little setting, too. And I just. I think there's a lot of elements there, too, where this particular author could potentially rival. Because, like, we talk about it all the time, like, who's the Sapphic version of Emily Henry? Because her shit flies off the shelves. We can't keep Emily Henry on our shelves to save our lives. Like, it's ordered so often that I'm like, why did we have this? We just know we were out. Like, I'm gone for two days, and we've sold it out. I don't think she's at, like, writing style. I don't think she's at Emily Henry's strengths. With that said, she still writes interesting characters. She still gives us interesting sex scenes. And because it's a series, there's a lot to work with there. And I love. I love a series. I am a series girl.
- [55:46]
A
Okay, second thorny question. Would this show be here and be here at this level without the PR and do you Think it was organic pr? Like, it was the people making their fan edits. Or do you think it's like these two doing GQ and that blew up? Or do you think that comes after the show blows up on TikTok? Like, do you think we'd be here without their PR campaign and how cute they are?
- [56:12]
D
Am I crazy? But, like, no one was talking about the show until episode three. Like, we were really not. No one was really. It was like fan edits on TikTok is what I started seeing first, but no one was really giving a shit. And it wasn't, I think, until that started happening that all of a sudden it was like I was waiting a week to see an episode and then I've got, they're coming out with a gq, they're coming out with a this. And then they're naked over here. And then they're naked over here.
- [56:38]
E
And I was like, like, wait a minute.
- [56:39]
D
I feel like people were. I feel like publications were slow to the uptake and then they flooded us. I mean, like, these two are going to be on late night and the show's already done. Like, you know what I mean? Like, the show is done and they're going to be on late night. They're presenting at the next, like, awards, whatever. Am I crazy? Is that.
- [56:58]
E
That's not crazy?
- [56:59]
A
No, I think you're right.
- [57:00]
E
I also. The power of the romance girlies. Guys, like, talk about it. Julia, this is like. It was is. I had a friend text me November 28th. It was like, have I got a show for you and I. She's two episodes. Get into it. Watch. I was like, this is the yearning I've been waiting for. This is the yearning I've been waiting for my whole life. Where is this in real life? And from there it was a very small, like, all of the book romance girlies were just kind of like. And then it just like. And maybe that was part of the pr, right? Because like. Yeah, because publishing knows romance girlies get done. They know how to use the key.
- [57:40]
A
Players in yet, Julia. And yet they hadn't stocked the books. The data was there publisher problem. I know, but I'm saying, like, that's a sign. I'm saying. But the day the data is here and you answered my next question, so I won't ask it. But I was talking about like a TV show. Could it exist like this without book ip? And what role did book IP play? And I am with you. I think the best audience you could ever have is a book audience. A Book talk audience and a romance audience and that they will show up. And I think even if it's not a book you love or that you personally love, that audience still knows how to rally around a good story and make sure people know about it.
- [58:19]
E
Absolutely. And they're still fumbling the bag with the delivery of the books, by the way. Like, that's still a shit show. So sorry to everyone who's waiting for their books. We're trying real hard.
- [58:29]
A
Okay, here's a question from Kinsey that I'm asking is one of our thorny questions. I pulled it from her notes app. Do we think Shane will ever fuck ill?
- [58:38]
D
Yeah, this is a real. This is for the gays in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. What do you think, Rod?
- [58:41]
C
I think that they will be versed at some point. Yeah, for sure, for sure.
- [58:46]
D
I feel like that. To me, I haven't read the books.
- [58:49]
E
But to me, I'm like, that's book two.
- [58:51]
D
Book two is this back. And it's like a power. I mean, how incredible.
- [58:55]
E
Well, he did rightfully is book two. Right, right.
- [58:58]
D
Okay, Copy, copy, copy.
- [58:59]
C
Shane is. Shane is baby girl. Like, to be clear, Shane is baby girl.
- [59:04]
D
That's right.
- [59:05]
C
And Ilya is daddy. Like, that is. That is what it is. But I do think that there is a world where, like, the roles are reversed. I don't think it's gonna be, like, a common thing, you know, it's not gonna be like.
- [59:16]
D
I think it'll be like a special occasion.
- [59:17]
C
But, like, I do see it especially because of how masculine and how, like, sort of aggressive. Inherently aggressive. The sport of, like, hockey is like. Yeah, I definitely see some.
- [59:30]
D
Some, I think, versus is.
- [59:31]
A
Is.
- [59:31]
D
Is in the cards. 100% is in the cards. Also, like, they're the same height. The actors are the same height. We're having the. The dynamic. It's like we are. We're about to play with real, like, I. I feel like it. It's just like an open field for, like, playing with, like, fun power dynamics in a safe environment, consensual environment. And that's hot.
- [59:54]
E
God, yeah. In the book, Celia does tower over Shane, like, considerably.
- [59:59]
A
Oh, okay.
- [60:00]
E
He. He big Russian man.
- [60:01]
C
Like, that's like, not to get too icky either, but just, like, you really see how much Ilya wants to please Shane. Just even with the oral situations that we see going, he's in it to get him off as well. And so if that's something that he ever wanted, I think that he would, like, they would Go down that road.
- [60:25]
D
I think you're so right. That's a huge part of his character too, is that at some point he's like, always checking in. And that is such a. That's also a huge thing that's like, so hot about the show is that you're like, fuck. Consent is really hot. It's really hot. And it's. And it could be a part of the play that's. It's play.
- [60:45]
A
I truly feel like if you. If any consent course is ever taught, which of course it won't be, it'll be federally defunded in an instant. But if it would be, it's like, just. Just watch that show. And yet you've learned consent. And I feel like when consent became a thing, men were like, oh, so now I have to be the. Like, can I kiss you?
- [61:02]
E
Like, that's not hot.
- [61:03]
A
And I've heard women say it. Like, I've heard like, stand up specials being like, that's not hot. I don't want Amanda. Blah, blah, blah. And now you see this and you're like, it's the hottest thing you've ever. There's. You wish you could be asked.
- [61:13]
C
Yes.
- [61:14]
A
Does anyone have any last thorny questions they want to throw out to the group before we wrap this bitch?
- [61:20]
E
I do just want to say, canonically, Scott is a bottom.
- [61:27]
A
Whoa, Rod.
- [61:30]
E
Rod of the corner.
- [61:31]
A
Rod.
- [61:35]
E
Like, I. I feel like. And again, beautiful book. They honored so many things. That is the one thing that they made a change where I was like, huh?
- [61:47]
A
Wait, I don't think they made that change.
- [61:50]
C
We're talking about Scott and Kip, right? Right.
- [61:53]
E
Scott and Kip.
- [61:56]
C
You didn't gag me, girl. That's a gag. But he bought. I mean, he did. I feel like he did bottom in the show. Or he implied that he was going to bottom later.
- [62:05]
A
But the first, like, can I. You is him to Kip.
- [62:09]
C
Yeah, right?
- [62:10]
A
Yes.
- [62:10]
D
That shot when they come back from the art gallery and they're standing next to each other is the most Mindy shot.
- [62:15]
A
Because you're like, kip is huge.
- [62:17]
E
Look at how built that dude is.
- [62:19]
D
And then he stands next to Scott.
- [62:20]
E
And you're like, he's like, short.
- [62:22]
D
What's going on here?
- [62:24]
E
Yeah, I.
- [62:25]
D
Maybe that's why. Do you think that's why they changed that dynamic? That can't be it, right?
- [62:32]
E
I've not seen anybody ask Jacob Tierney about this.
- [62:37]
C
I've climbed some trees in my day.
- [62:41]
E
Rod.
- [62:44]
A
Bless you, Rod. Tell you what, I think we gotta end the episode on that. That was absolutely perfect. Rod, tell the people where they can find you, follow you, hear you singing. Come to your next Josh Groban concert.
- [63:01]
C
You can find me on Instagram, odbra, and if anything comes up, you'll see it there.
- [63:08]
A
Kenzie, tell the people where they can find you, follow you, support your work, all of it. Beg you for a Sapphic film.
- [63:13]
E
Well, I have one.
- [63:14]
D
It's called Brisket. You can see it on my website, thisiskenzielizabeth.com or you can see on Instagram. It's there. It's very Sapphic, it's very bloody and kind of sexy. And that's me.
- [63:25]
A
It's absolutely stunning. Go watch it. And Julia, where can people. I know this isn't the point, but where can people sign up for your candle subscription? Because I just really need more people to know about this. And that's also where they can find everything else in your shop. But like, you need the candle subscription, correct?
- [63:40]
E
Correct. So on Instagram, pros and glow, it's all one word. Pros and glow. Like prose, like literary prose. So there's two ways you can get the candle. If you want to be a part of the book club and get the candle, you can join on patreon.com juliawashington it's the lit club tier. February's candle is heated rivalry.
- [64:00]
A
I'm getting a heated rivalry candle.
- [64:02]
E
We are coming to the cottage.
- [64:05]
A
We're coming in the cottage with our cottage candle candle.
- [64:08]
E
Yes. So subscribe by February 10th to get the candle. You can do it on Patreon or you can do it on my website.
- [64:15]
A
And on the website you can just get the candles too, right?
- [64:17]
E
And on the website you just get the candle. And all of my candles in store are literary themed. So like, if you also think that men are better written by women, I got a book boyfriend candle for you. It smells amazing.
- [64:28]
A
Thank you all for being here. I wish we could make a nine hour episode. Thank you so much. A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer Marcus Hamm and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and every plate. We will link to those brands in the show notes. Go check them out. Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes. And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon sign up. There's a free tier you can join, leave a comment, chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the Book club continuing over there.
- [65:33]
D
Now.
- [65:33]
C
Greenland 2 is making an impact across the globe.
- [65:36]
A
Hang on.
- [65:36]
C
Audiences rave. It's deeply emotional and better than the first. You'll be holding your breath from start to finish. Greenland 2 migration rated PG 13 the new year brings new health goals and wealth goals. Protecting your identity is an important step. Your info is in endless places that could expose you to identity theft, leading to lost funds. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Resolve to make identity, health and wealth part of your New year's goals. With LifeLock, save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com podcast terms apply.