Mara Wilson’s Memoir Where Am I Now? (with Ruby Karp)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast Episode: Mara Wilson’s Memoir Where Am I Now? (with Ruby Karp)
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Ruby Karp
Release Date: April 8, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast, host Chelsea Devantez delves deep into Where Am I Now? True Stories of Girlhood and Accidental Fame, the memoir of beloved child actress Mara Wilson. Joined by comedian and actress Ruby Karp, Chelsea explores the intricate layers of Mara's journey from child stardom to adulthood, shedding light on the glamour and the hidden struggles that often accompany fame.

Overview of Mara Wilson's Memoir

Where Am I Now? is a heartfelt memoir that chronicles Mara Wilson’s experiences growing up in the limelight, her battles with identity, and her quest to find her place beyond the characters that initially defined her. Published in 2016, the book offers an introspective look into the life of a child star navigating the complexities of fame, personal loss, and self-discovery.

Notable Quote:

"It's what you leave in and what you put out." — Mara Wilson [58:29]

Childhood Acting and Theater School Experiences

Mara Wilson recounts her early days in Los Angeles, where her mother encouraged her to pursue acting without pushing her towards fame. Raised by a single mother, Mara attended LaGuardia High School, often referred to as the "Fame school." The intense environment of a theater high school played a significant role in shaping her understanding of performance and personal worth.

Key Points:

• Mara’s introduction to acting was nurtured by a supportive yet protective mother.
• LaGuardia High School's pressure to excel in theater created a challenging environment for young actors.
• The memoir highlights the detrimental effects of adult animosity towards child actors, fostering a lasting distrust.

Notable Quote:

"Why was that 50-year-old like beefing with a class of 14-year-olds like this?" — Mara Wilson [06:29]

Dealing with Fame and Identity

As Mara transitions from child roles in iconic films like Mrs. Doubtfire and Matilda to more mature projects, she grapples with the fading of her childhood fame and the confusion surrounding her evolving identity. The memoir delves into her struggles with societal expectations, beauty standards, and the desire to define herself beyond her early success.

Key Points:

• The decline of child acting opportunities as Mara grows older leads to a crisis of identity.
• Early experiences with fame distort her perception of self-worth and place in the industry.
• The memoir underscores the psychological toll of being typecast and the challenges of reinventing oneself.

Notable Quote:

"My purpose is gone. This is my identity." — Mara Wilson [19:25]

Relationships and Personal Growth

Mara's relationships, both personal and professional, are a cornerstone of her memoir. From her close friendship with Danny DeVito and Robin Williams to her experiences in college, Mara illustrates the profound impact of meaningful connections on her personal development. Her bond with Ruby Karp enhances the discussion, highlighting the importance of supportive relationships in overcoming adversity.

Key Points:

• The support from Danny DeVito and Robin Williams provided Mara with stability amidst chaos.
• College life at NYU introduced new dynamics and challenges, further shaping her adulthood.
• Ruby Karp shares parallels between her experiences and Mara’s, emphasizing common struggles among performers.

Notable Quote:

"How do you get audiences to be so obsessed with you? It's what you leave in and what you put out." — Robin Williams [58:29]

Mental Health and Coping Mechanisms

A pivotal aspect of Mara's memoir is her candid exploration of mental health issues, including OCD and the profound impact of her mother's battle with cancer. Mara discusses the difficulty of processing trauma as a child star and the role of external support in her healing journey. The memoir serves as a testament to the resilience required to navigate personal hardships while maintaining a career in the spotlight.

Key Points:

• Mara's mother’s cancer diagnosis during her peak acting years introduced significant emotional strain.
• The memoir addresses the challenges of seeking mental health support as a young performer.
• Mara emphasizes the importance of community and authentic connections in overcoming psychological struggles.

Notable Quote:

"You can fully comprehend what's happening when you are very young. You just can't process it." — Mara Wilson [36:01]

Impact of Key Figures: Robin Williams and Danny DeVito

Mara's relationships with Robin Williams and Danny DeVito are profoundly detailed in her memoir. She describes Williams as a shy yet iconic figure who valued authenticity, and DeVito as a nurturing presence that provided her with a sense of safety and belonging. Their influence is depicted as instrumental in shaping her approach to both her career and personal life.

Key Points:

• Robin Williams’ advice on authenticity and self-preservation left a lasting impression on Mara.
• Danny DeVito's compassion and support during her mother's illness exemplify the positive impact of mentorship.
• The memoir honors their legacies, highlighting the complexities of their characters beyond the public persona.

Notable Quote:

"It's what you leave in and what you put out." — Robin Williams [58:29]

Transition to Adulthood and Career Shift

As Mara matures, she confronts the diminishing opportunities in acting and begins to explore other avenues such as writing and storytelling. Her decision to pivot towards writing is portrayed as a brave and necessary step in reclaiming her identity. The memoir captures the essence of self-reinvention and the courage to pursue passions beyond the safety of a familiar career path.

Key Points:

• The exhaustion of acting roles forces Mara to reevaluate her career aspirations.
• Writing becomes a therapeutic outlet and a means of expressing her authentic self.
• Mara's journey underscores the importance of adaptability and personal growth in one's career.

Notable Quote:

"It's impossible to abandon that. Cause you're abandoning yourself." — Mara Wilson [45:38]

The Booktal Test

Towards the end of the episode, Chelsea and Ruby engage in the "booktal test," a series of reflective questions to assess the impact of Mara's memoir.

1. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of their truth?

   • Chelsea: Yes, for sure.
   • Ruby: Yes, for sure.

2. Was it entertaining to read?

   • Ruby: Yes, truly insanely interesting stories. Very specific circumstances also just a... She's a good writer.
   • Chelsea: It was compelling and captivating.

3. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

   • Ruby: Yes, it provided comfort and a sense of shared experience.
   • Chelsea: Yes, especially through her candid reflections and personal growth.

Notable Quote:

"There are people who have actually experienced it on an even more heightened scale." — Ruby Karp [63:00]

Conclusion and Guest Promotion

As the episode wraps up, Chelsea expresses her deep appreciation for Ruby Karp's insights and the mutual resonance they found in Mara Wilson's memoir. Ruby promotes her upcoming one-woman show, I Don't Trust Adults, which is set to premiere off-Broadway at Soho Playhouse.

Notable Quote:

"I ban all of you from reading my memoir. I don't trust adults." — Ruby Karp [65:57]

Final Thoughts

This episode of Glamorous Trash offers a profound exploration of Mara Wilson's memoir, enriched by Ruby Karp's relatable experiences and insights. The conversation illuminates the nuanced realities of childhood fame, the relentless pursuit of identity, and the enduring quest for authenticity. Listeners are left with a deeper understanding of the human side of celebrity and the universal challenges of self-discovery.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "Why was that 50-year-old like beefing with a class of 14-year-olds like this?" — Mara Wilson [06:29]
• "My purpose is gone. This is my identity." — Mara Wilson [19:25]
• "It's what you leave in and what you put out." — Robin Williams [58:29]
• "You can fully comprehend what's happening when you are very young. You just can't process it." — Mara Wilson [36:01]
• "It's impossible to abandon that. Cause you're abandoning yourself." — Mara Wilson [45:38]
• "There are people who have actually experienced it on an even more heightened scale." — Ruby Karp [63:00]
• "I ban all of you from reading my memoir. I don't trust adults." — Ruby Karp [65:57]

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This detailed summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, highlighting the thematic discussions, personal anecdotes, and emotional depth explored by Chelsea Devantez and Ruby Karp in their conversation about Mara Wilson's memoir. For listeners seeking an in-depth understanding or those unable to tune in, this summary serves as a comprehensive guide to the episode's rich content.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Marvel Studios Thunderbolts will take the world by storm.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yes, there's a big bread out there and you're gonna stop it.

[Mara Wilson]

Us.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Why? You got someplace to be on May 2nd?

[Mara Wilson]

Avengers are gone.

[Chelsea Devantes]

No one's coming to save the day their time. I think we could be the people.

[Mara Wilson]

That are coming has come being the hero. There is no higher calling. Let's do this.

[Narrator]

Marvel Studios Thunderbolts only theaters may 2 get tickets now. This film is not yet rated. This episode is brought to you by the Nissan Armada Pro 4X. With a twin turbo V6 engine ready to propel your adventures, up to 8,500 pounds of towing capacity to haul all your favorite toys and space for eight passengers, Nissan's most powerful car yet will chew up and spit out anything you throw at it. Learn more about the all new 2025 Nissan Armada at nissanusa.com Towing capacity varies by configuration. See Nissan Towing Guide and Owner's Manual for additional information. Always secure cargo hey.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a celebrity memoir podcast where we dive into all of the glamour and all of the trash. I'm your host, Chelsea Devantes. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff, too. And today we are book clubbing. Where Am I Now? True Stories of Girlhood and Accidental Fame by author, actor and millennial icon Mara Wilson, published in 2016. Now, you might have grown up watching Mara as the little girl in movies like Mrs. Doubtfire and Matilda. Recently, she's been in shows like broad city and BoJack Horseman. She's also a writer and publishes a newsletter on substack called Shan't We Tell the Vicar. Now this memoir of Mara's has been requested for years from us. A highly requested memoir, and I've never done it because I usually stay away from memoirs where I closely know the person just because I'll be too biased to do the episode. And Mara I know each other because we spent eight hours a day together as theater classmates during freshman year. So finally the perfect guest arrived and I said, you know what? Let's cover this book, but only if Mara comes on afterwards to talk to me about it. So Mara and I have already had our discussion and we talked about some crazy shit we went through together, some BTs of the book, and that episode is available right now to subscribers on Apple. You can just click subscribe and it's immediately yours or sign up on Patreon Links to Spotify. You get all the perks of ad free listening the community chats Book clubs, pictures, mostly the other cookies who are the best part of this book club. So that episode is here for you today if you want the juice. But right now, brief trigger warning as we are going to discuss Robin Williams and his death by suicide briefly in the episode. So do know that take care while listening and let's dive into our memoir episode. We're moving to Guam. Come on, let's go.

[Mara Wilson]

Guam?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah.

[Mara Wilson]

Daddy's not gonna be in the auto business anymore. I don't want to leave.

[Chelsea Devantes]

We going on a permanent vacation? Yeah, we gotta beat the speedboat salesman to the airport.

[Mara Wilson]

I love it here. I love my school. It isn't fair.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Ms. Honey, please don't let them get in the car. Melinda, Matilda, Whatever.

[Mara Wilson]

I wanted to stay with Ms. Honey. Ms. Honey doesn't want you.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Why would she want some snotty, disobedient kid?

[Mara Wilson]

Because.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Because she's a spectacularly wonderful child.

[Mara Wilson]

And I love her.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Our guest today is Ruby Karp. Ruby has been doing stand up since she started hosting her own show at UCB when she was 11 years old. She just starred opposite Charlie Puth in the improvised comedy series the Charlie Puth Show. And her one woman show, I Don't Trust Adults, launches off Broadway at Soho Playhouse on March 26. So it's playing right now. Go get your tickets. It runs until May 3rd. Hi, Ruby. Welcome to the podcast.

[Mara Wilson]

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I'm so thrilled you're here. Okay, so we finally chose this book because you're the perfect guest for it, because your show that's coming out is very on theme with the memoir we are covering today. So please tell everyone about your show.

[Mara Wilson]

So my show, as a child, I worked in child journalism. I was a child activist. I wrote a memoir. Despite, once again, cannot reiterate enough. Mara Wilson was like Matilda. Like, Mara Wilson had, like, claim to fame. I was not famous. And I also did not really have much to offer. I think a lot of adults just put a lot of trust into me and were like, yeah, like this 15 year old is willing to do these things. And I think we all have to wonder sometimes, right? But should we let this 15 year old do any of these things?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. Should we monetize it? Should we help this happen? Should we put this responsibility on her?

[Mara Wilson]

Right, of course. So, like I was just saying, I gave a TED Talk when I was 12 about feminism. I wrote a bunch of articles for like, Mashable and the New York Times and HuffPost. I obviously have been doing standup for like 15 years. And I did all of this because I, a theater kid, was like, well, clearly all of this is going to lead to me being a Broadway actress. Because fame, fame in general leads to that in any capacity.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Right. Being a journalist straight to Broadway, obviously.

[Mara Wilson]

Like the pipeline is clear child logic. And so it's basically about all of the different adults I interacted with in all of these different fields, particularly at theater school, which I went to LaGuardia, which is a theater high school.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Is that the Fame high school?

[Mara Wilson]

It is unfortunately, the Fame school.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay, wait, why do you say unfortunately? Because as a kid who I aspired to have your life, I was like, why won't any adults give me a talk show? I'm five. I watched the movie Fame and was like, how do I get here to this school?

[Mara Wilson]

So it's truly the most like stereotypical theater school experience of theater teachers taking it so seriously. And like, Mara kind of touches on this in the book of like, in the moment when you're 12, you're like, okay, the most important thing in the world is getting cast in the school musical and pleasing my teacher. And then you grow up and you're like, why was that 50 year old, like, beefing with a class of 14 year olds like this?

[Chelsea Devantes]

It's.

[Mara Wilson]

It makes no sense at all. I, at 24, can't even imagine, like, having any animosity towards a child, let alone my student, let alone one you're teaching. Yes, exactly. So it kind of just touches on truly like a large scope of good to bad to evil of different adults. And basically it's called I don't trust adults because I go through six different adults who cause me to be forever suspicious of adults. And it basically takes you through that journey of being a theater kid and also essentially, what is a failed child star?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Ruby, I. I love that so much. I really feel at one with you in a totally different way. I wrote a memoir, and my memoir has good, bad and evil women in it. When you wrote to me, I said, okay, it is time to do the child star memoir. And Mara and I know each other from theater school, which is some of what she writes about in here, which is crazy. Yeah, I didn't tell you that, did I?

[Mara Wilson]

Okay. Also, when she was writing about choir, I was like, this sounds just like Glee. And then she drops that. Like her choir experience inspired Glee. I was like, oh my God. I was like, oh. So she lived the theater kid experience fully.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Fully, yeah. There's. There's so much to get into here. Okay, let's dive In So the title, Where Am I Now. I love this title. And I'm curious, because you're 24, did you recognize the reference to Where Am I Now?

[Mara Wilson]

Oh. Oh, no. I don't know. I. What I perceived it as. I perceived it as, like, when people are like, where is this formerly famous person Now? Like, that kind of article title.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yes. No, you got it. Yeah. So they used to do those specials all the time on, like, E. By the way, that wasn't a quiz. I was just curious if that was, like, still something that, like, impacted you. Oh, my God.

[Mara Wilson]

I was like, is there a movie reference? I don't know.

[Chelsea Devantes]

No, no, no, no, no. My God, no. But they used to do, like, Where Are they now? And HuffPost. For the longest time, I used to save them. And this was 2009. So good for me for being up on just, like. I don't know what I was cataloging them for, but it would be like, what Hillary Duff looks like now. She's a hideous bitch. What lacunas looks like now.

[Mara Wilson]

She used.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And now she's 30. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And they used to do, like, Where Are They Now? Specials all the time. And it was like, TMZ and all this stuff. And Mara talks about doing a Where are They Now? Special, which I literally was in class when she was like, I have to go do this special and, like, do this interview. And then in the book, she talks about how they never aired it because they said she looked too pale, which is like, what?

[Mara Wilson]

That's like, truly a makeup and hair. Like, there are people on set whose job it is to, like, make that.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, that's like, a lighting thing. She probably was just, like, too good at answering their inane questions or they're enlightened. Because I'm like, these things love to make people look like shit. Like, what are you talking about? Anyways, that's where the title comes from.

[Mara Wilson]

Cool.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Wait, what did you think of the title, the COVID Because on the back is, like, her grown up, and on the front is her as a kid.

[Mara Wilson]

You know, I think this title and this whole book is such a beautiful love letter to both who she's become and who she was. And I think, like, the COVID and the back cover do such a good job of kind of summarizing that without telling you anything, because the back cover is her recreating the child pose. And I think it's just like, God, she's so precocious. She's so sweet. She's so smart. Always, like, as a child, as an adult people are so interested in child stars and being like, well, what was this like? What was that like? Why did you experience that and how did that feel? And I feel like all of this is her basically on her own terms being like, here is that for all you people who are so interested, but at the same time, like, here's just, like, me and my purpose and how I've dealt with this. And I feel like, where am I now? Is a. Is a great, like, double meaning of the. What you were saying, the reference to, like, where is this person now? But also, like, checking in with Mara, the person. Like, where am I? How am I feeling? Like, where am I emotionally now, which I just love Ruby.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That was so beautifully said. Could not agree more. Okay, so the memoir is. It's not linear. It's not like beginning, middle, end. It's more like different essays. So I feel like, let's just go through it doing highlights, but just so everyone knows we're not going to, like, hit that. Oh, my God. Are those. I have it.

[Mara Wilson]

I have it so marked up. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Girl after my own heart. Okay, please interrupt me if I skip anything. Make sure you bring up all your favorite parts. Okay, so basically, one of the big stories, and I don't know if everyone knows this, is that Mara grew up in la. Her mom is not your typical momager. She's like, we can act. And that's sort of a normal thing because when you're in la, it's like, oh, soccer practice and a commercial audition as a child, like, it's not that crazy. And she doesn't want her to think she's, like, famous, and she doesn't want her to, like, get too big of a head. But, like, yes, you can act. And she starts booking everything.

[Mara Wilson]

And just a quick note on her mom. My mom is like, to a T, the exact same. I was raised by a single mom. But, like, I think everyone has this perception of stage moms that it's like, if you're a child actor, you were forced into it. If you're a child actor, like, your parents are crazy. They're trying to profit off of you, all this stuff. But I actually find that, yes, while that is true, a lot of moms are quite normal and quite afraid and protective of this world. And my mom was the exact same way. I have this underlined. Mara's sibling Dani was a child actor as well. And Mara as a kid said, mommy, I want to do what Danny does. And her mom goes, no, you don't. And it's like that. I think that I love how Mara describes how protective her mother is of her. Because once again, we have to remember that child actors are children who don't understand what fame and acting mean. And for a lot of kids who are true to their core theater kids, this is just their dream. And it's the parents job to do what they can to protect them. Which I think, like, her mother does such a beautiful job of doing in here.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And I'm so glad your mom was like that too, because. Yeah, read the Jeanette McCurdy's and books where the mom was the opposite.

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Mara has this really cute story where every time she would tell us a story because she was so used to, like, being on set and getting this good response when she would tell a story and there was no response, she would shout, clap for me. Which is so cute. But then her mom was like, no, stop doing that.

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That's rude.

[Mara Wilson]

Stop.

[Chelsea Devantes]

So funny. Well, a really heartbreaking part of Mara's life in this book is that her mom gets cancer while she is shooting, and she is shooting Matilda when her mom has a mastectomy and she stays the night at Danny DeVito and Rhea Perlman's house. Which is like, wasn't it? It was so sweet, but it was also so gnarly. Like, it was so beautiful that it was like community and her friends and other adults stepping in to take care of her. But also she's on set and working. I don't know. What did you think?

[Mara Wilson]

First of all, if you read this book, you will fall in love with Danny DeVito. Oh, my God, the way that he takes care of her is so beautiful. And also, again, as a kid, you can't really, fully, fully comprehend what it means to be working on a set while your mother is going through like, a. A very, very serious medical issue like that. Yeah, it's so layered. And as a child, you're just like, I guess I have to do this job. And also, like, I guess I have to go see my mom and like, all this stuff. But I think, like, first of all, the way she writes about her mother, it's so beautiful. I cannot even imagine the weight of the world that was on her shoulders at this time. Like on a. On a much, much, much smaller scale. I remember I had to do like, the school musical, and my mom's dad was like, in the hospital at the time, and my mom did, like, everything she could to shield me from it. And it's like your perception of what the hospital is and what your work is, it's like you just can't fully grasp it. And I think what they did for her and the way her village came through for her is so indicative of like, again, yes, being a child star can be very traumatic and there are things about it that are extremely exploitative. But it also does give these children this beautiful community, when done right, of people who do really look out for you and protect you. And I think I'm just like, so grateful that she had that.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, that's really beautiful. Yeah. I found myself being so torn between, like, this is so beautiful in community, but also like, you have to go to work right now. But also like, as a child, like, I don't, I, you know, I don't, I don't know what her, her dad or her mom wanted. Maybe they, they liked that she was busy. Like, I, I really couldn't wrap my head around it. And her mom passes away when she's 10. And so she was sort of working through all of this and I, I don't know the answer, but I wonder if it harmed her processing because her brain was busy with other stuff. I don't know.

[Mara Wilson]

Oh, my God. Yeah. What you perceive to be important is so warped. You know, it's like you can't understand what matters more. What, what is going to be something that lasts and doesn't last. Slash. Like, oh my God. I loved her letter to Matilda.

[Chelsea Devantes]

She's like writing to the character of Matilda who shaped her life. Yeah.

[Mara Wilson]

And it's like, you know, the way she writes about it, she's like, when she was filming it, it was like summer camp. It was the best time of her life. And then when it ended, as she grows and as she goes on as a person, her relationship with the character and with the movie like, ebbs and flows. And I think it's just, it's so, so interesting the way that time plays such a role, particularly in like a child actor's life, because time moves so bizarrely in general when you're a child. But I think when so much emphasis is put on, like you're doing this like four month shoot or like your mom has been in the hospital for two years, your perception of time and the way that things might last or not last, it just, it's so warped. And I just really feel for her.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I relate to that. I think anyone can, like, you know, your child brain is so warped and now throw in like a movie set and losing a parent. And I also loved that letter to Matilda, the part that stuck out to me, the most is that, like, for a long time, it's like, all people recognize her as. And it's this burden. And, like, she can't be Mara because she's Matilda. But then one day, she goes to see the mutual musical version of Matilda, and she's like, oh, my gosh, this is. You know, I'm just like. I'm just a human being. Like, I bought a ticket to go see this musical. And she's like, I wonder if anyone will notice me. And she's like. And then I felt, like, disappointed that, like, no. No one did.

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And all I could think was, is the amount of people who would be so upset to know that you were there and they didn't get to say hi.

[Mara Wilson]

Oh, my God. Right? Like, I'm sure people didn't even know to look out for her, but, yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

You only know a child's face. Like, you know what I mean? Like, she had kind of withdrawn from the public eye. So it's like. Yeah. They don't know who to look for. And I'm. Yeah.

[Mara Wilson]

I almost wish I could have been like, mara, say, clap for me. Like, say, like, do the thing. Make everyone do the thing. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Oh, my God. The musical ends. She stands up, takes a small bow. Would have loved that ending.

[Mara Wilson]

Yes. You know what I mean?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yes. She does all these movies as a kid that are just so huge. And then it's fascinating in the book because those roles start to dry up, which is such a. I mean, it's crazy when that happens to you as an adult. I want to read this part about. She talks about how she used to just be offered movies, and that's not happening much anymore. She, like, has to audition for it. And she said, when we got a script for 13 a few months later, I knew right away that it was going to offend my father's Republican sensibilities. I don't like it. He said, there's no recovery or redemption at the end. She's just a skank, said Morris Dad. And he said, if they really like you, they could change it for you. Have you seen the movie 13?

[Mara Wilson]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devantes]

There's just like. You'd have to just throw the whole movie.

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah, no, that's an impossible ask.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And she said, it's been a while since they've done that. I said there had also been a time when people just asked me to be in a movie without making me audition. That didn't happen anymore either. Well, you have to keep trying for stuff if you want to keep acting. He reminded Me again. I know when I was alone, I could admit to myself that acting wasn't as fun as it had once been. But I had to keep doing it, didn't I? It was the constant in my life. My family had changed, my body had changed, my life had changed. Sometimes it felt like acting was all I had. And she's literally talking about, like, getting boobs.

[Mara Wilson]

I underlined the same part.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Really?

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

So did you ever experience this in your life?

[Mara Wilson]

I experience this, like, every day. Just on an existential level.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mara Wilson]

I grew up at ucb, so I have, like, I have a joke that my mom's not in comedy, but my mom, when I was a kid, really wanted to hook up with comedians, but couldn't get a babysitter, so. So I would just be around a lot.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Oh, my God. I'm sorry. I. I also have a lot of times fit at ucb and thinking about this is the craziest thing I've ever heard. Okay. Yes.

[Mara Wilson]

So I. I truly, again, I was raised by a single mom. My dad left when I was like three. And long story short, my mom, super intense feminist activist. She, like, co founded bus in the 90s, but then, like, got the magazine, but then got pushed out when she, like, got pregnant with me and stuff.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay, that doesn't seem like what BUST stands for, but go ahead.

[Mara Wilson]

I have a thing that's like, you should never monetize feminism. But that's another. That's another thing.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That's a straight line. I agree on a lot. Amazing. Okay, keep going.

[Mara Wilson]

But basically, my mom was looking for work. My mom was without a partner to help raise me. So a lot of my mom's friends were comics because of bust, because she would interview them for it. And so for me, my village was ucb. Like, everyone around UCB would really, really come through, would babysit me. And so that's how I. That's how I started performing. Because it would be like, we need a child for this sketch show. And then I would be the child. And then it just turned into, like, they would just start doing bits with me on stage and just like, stuff like that. And so for me, comedy is, like, the most core part of my identity. I grew up in comedy. I grew up around comedians. I grew up performing. I did stand up for the first time at ASCAT when I was eight.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Wow. For any listeners, UCB is the theater formed by Amy Poehler, Matt Besser, Matt Walsh, and Ian Roberts. Ian Roberts. And it was, like, the place to be in New York City to learn Comedy, to perform comedy. And Ascat was a show they would do on Sundays where they would have the best improvisers. Amy herself, famous people I wrote about in my book. It was like, the thing that made me want to do comedy because their 11 o'clock show was free. And you're telling me you did the monologue at 8 years old?

[Mara Wilson]

@ that show, I would do it twice a year until I turned 11 when I started hosting my own show at UCB.

[Chelsea Devantes]

This is Ruby. This is the craziest thing I've ever heard.

[Mara Wilson]

No, I know. And when you think about it, it's my real life. And you're like, wait a minute. You're like, wait, you lived this? And then you're like, wait, what happened?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Well, no, this makes so, so much sense. You're so, like, eloquent and articulate and funny. So wait, you're. You were talking about how comedy is your.

[Mara Wilson]

So basically all this is to say, for me, when I grew up and I wasn't, obviously, like, as a kid, no one my age knew what UCB was. No one cared about comedy. But as I got older, obviously, like, people my age did start to want to do comedy. People would do all the. Like, people started knowing what UCB was. And I think, like, in turn, I was also like, maybe I wasn't that funny or maybe it was jealousy or whatever. But as I got older, people started to get more mean. And, like, people my age would be like, she's not that funny. Or like, you know, just like, the classic, like, ways people come for you. And, you know, for most people, when people are like, that person's not that funny or that person's not that talented, they're like, whatever. They're just jealous. Like, I brush it off. But for me, for a long time, and I'm, like, still getting over this. It's like when someone comes for you or when you're not getting work or when you lose a job or something, for me, I'm like, oh, my God, like, my purpose is gone. You have come for the one thing that is everything about me. This is who I am. This is my identity. And I think as someone who grew up in a certain field, you have to train yourself that, like, yes, as much as you love that field and as much as the field has done so much for you, you are a person first and a working person second, and that all of this is just work, even if it is a passion and something you love.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Wow, that is such a stunning and important insight. And I mean, listen I went through this, like, in college, where it's like, you would be good in class that day, and the next day someone would be like, actually, she's, like, a dumb bitch. And you'd be like, wait a minute. I guess I'm a dumb bitch. And going through that at, like, 19 felt impossible, and I would believe them. And so I can't imagine how intense that must have been when you're so much younger, because it's hard. I mean, it's hard to go through now. If someone said. If someone left a comment on my podcast today, I'd feel bad about it for a year.

[Mara Wilson]

Right. So imagine how Mara must have felt when it's like your constant is just like, the coolest movies ever, and the coolest people ever are offering you stuff, and then one day it just stops. You know, as a kid, you're like, this is never going to stop. This is my life. Like, everyone loves me. I'm great to work with. I'm friends with all of these really cool adults. Like, why would the work dry up? And it's like, even today, as an adult, you can't understand Hollywood because that's not possible.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Like, yeah, there's no rules.

[Mara Wilson]

There's no rules. It changes constantly. You have no control. And I think as a kid, control is the most confusing concept. And you're like, why is this so out of my control?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. Especially as a kid when you're taught, like, if I'm good, I get a treat. If I'm bad, I, you know, am on timeout. And then you enter a world where the rules change on you constantly, which is, like, definitely a form of grief or depression or something. Also tied into this change with Mara is, like, not only is she entering the years where, like, the roles aren't as clear as, like, cute little adorable child, but she is going through puberty. She develops early. It's like, you're no longer a cute little kid anymore. Like, now we're mad at you. We don't know what to do with you. And very. I think, thankfully, she goes to the boarding school Idlewild, which. Do you ever, like, feel jealousy for things that, like, can't be possible? Like, it's like, that was, like, years ago, and I wasn't there. I didn't even know what that school was at that time.

[Mara Wilson]

And you're like, I should have been there.

[Chelsea Devantes]

You want to go to Idlewild? Yeah. So what did you think of the Idlewild stories and chapters?

[Mara Wilson]

You know, I connected with her so much here. I had A bit of a different experience. Like, for me, the adults at my high school were as much of, like, a thorn in my side as the students. Like, I.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Were they all like, teachers who couldn't live their dream and returned to teach? Or, like, what happened?

[Mara Wilson]

It's like a combo of a lot of things. It's that. It's this immense pressure to succeed for kind of no real reason. Again, it's like, it could be a random summer camp in the middle of nowhere, and the director is still going to be like, this is not Broadway quality. And, like, I will kill you all if you don't do that. Like, it's. That level of, like, intensity was very, very real for me. And again, because I took what these adults were saying so seriously, it meant so much to me. Her idyllwild stories with, like, her peers when she was like, why don't people like me? It's like, because you are successful queen like you are. You're not to use the term girl boss, but you are a girl boss.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, You. You have the thing that everyone wants, and you already had it. Also, at nyu, one of our classmates, Brandy, once said to me, I. I'm doing really well because I feel really lonely.

[Mara Wilson]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And I was like, oh, oh, yeah.

[Mara Wilson]

No, you're like, that's the worst thing I've ever heard.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And she was like, you know, some. She was like, I think maybe it was her mom. She was like, my mom always said it's lonely at the top of the mountain. And that it was just something you, especially in the petty theater world, like, you would have to accept.

[Mara Wilson]

I have to say, like, particularly as a kid, what makes theater so beautiful is community and acting on a set. Especially as a kid, I'm sure it's like, these are all my best friends. Like, I can't wait to do a new movie to make a 30 new best friends.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah.

[Mara Wilson]

So then I think when you're put in this environment where you're so excited because everyone's your age, finally, like, finally you're not surrounded by people twice your age, to have them all be mean to you is the most, like, devastating shock to your system I think you could possibly experience, which I resonated with so much.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Ah, Ruby, I'm so sorry. I can all. I can only imagine how fellow kids must have reacted knowing you already had a slot at ucb, which was hard to get.

[Mara Wilson]

Well, again, it's like no one at LaGuardia cared because everyone at LaGuardia wanted to be on Broadway. But then I. Devastatingly went to Emerson for comedy. And then that was a choice.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And that was a choice. I have friends who went there.

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah, I just. I really feel for her in this era. But I also want to point out this is, I think, a little bit before her Idlewild experience, but she and a few other child actors go on, like, a charity retreat. And at night they're like, all, like, just innocently playing, like, spin the bottle. And one of the chaperones comes over and is like, you guys are doing a really bad thing and you all should be really sorry for this. And, like, the story ends with them all just, like, the next morning, like, waking up really early, cleaning up after themselves, like, feeling really bad, being super quiet. And I literally. My note here is this is freak behavior on the adult's end because, like, the way that as she gets older, adults continue to police her and these kids, it's like, if I saw a group of 15 year olds playing spin the bottle on some charity retreat, I wouldn't be like, think of the children. Like, I would be like, oh, yeah, it's a bunch of 15 year olds doing what 15 year olds do.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Like, also, it's a bunch of child stars who have already been siphoned away from normal adolescent experiences. And, like, this is like a time when she can connect with kids who are like her, who are not mean to her and can, like, try and fuck around and.

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah, and it's so interesting to compare her interactions with child stars versus her interactions with, quote, unquote, like, normal kids at Idlewild. Because with the child stars, there's this familiarity, there's this understanding, there's this, like, camaraderie. And then she goes to choir, she goes to Idlewild. She goes to these places where people are just doing, like, the worst shit to her. And it's just. Yeah, it's so real.

[Chelsea Devantes]

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[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay, let's dive back into the episode. Okay, before we keep moving, I have to ask you about one more story. Okay, so there's this huge show choir chapter, which, listen, my show choir was nothing likely. It was just a shitty town with like seven kids who were like, please let me sing. But I still related. I was like, yes, I must be in show choir. Did you pick up on any other undercurrent in this story? This is a trick question because I learned this from Mara when we talked later and I didn't pick up on it. So I want to ask you, did you pick up on any other storyline in the show choir chapter that maybe wasn't just about show choir?

[Mara Wilson]

Wasn't just about show choir? I don't. Well, okay, there's a lot of talk of, like, hierarchy and powerhouse and all of this stuff. Choir is such a cult, et cetera. But I don't know. I mean, I don't even know if this is still the show choir section, but I have. I have a note here that says, child star gives you a weird relationship with social media plus public anything.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yes, true.

[Mara Wilson]

Not really sure what I meant by that.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay.

[Mara Wilson]

But yeah, no, I don't think so.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I learned from Mara. We talk about it later. But I was also like, oh, my God. She was like, you know, that chapter for me was also a story about having my first crush on a girl and not knowing I was queer. Okay.

[Mara Wilson]

I was actually gonna say there was a lot of, like, kind of like soft touching on bisexuality throughout this.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That's what she was talking about. Yeah. And she said when she was writing it, she was like, maybe people will read between the lines and kind of understand what I'm getting at here. And then after the book came out, she came out as bisexual, but it's like, yeah, I wonder if, like, when people read that chapter, if they, like, pick up on, like, she's. I mean, a lot of this book has, like, crushes and childhood, you know, exploration of, like, sexuality and, like, who you are next to all of these stories about, like, movies and child stardom, which is just so wild. Okay, I love that you got that.

[Mara Wilson]

I also, yeah, I also think, like, there's going back to my kind of very vague note I left for myself. I think that particularly as a child star, there's this pressure to define everything and be like, you know, you have to announce everything. You have to have a relationship with your body. You have to know, like, everything has to be decided. Like, when she talks about she can't be on dating apps because then, like, Gawker will write an article about it.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Or whatever about, like, sad child star can't get a date unless she goes on Tinder.

[Mara Wilson]

I almost wonder how that would, like, affect coming to terms with your own sexuality. Because it's like, well, whatever I decide has to be, like, the answer because it's going to be written up.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Such a good point. And also, like, how incredible it was for her to be like, this is who I am and come out when it's like, oh, Matilda is Matilda. Comes out like, yeah, you're so right. And also next to an adult shaming them for playing spin the bottle. Next to, like, all these feelings. She's 12 years old, she searches herself on the Internet and a site called Mr. Cranky has taken her child face and placed it on nude bodies. And like, women having sexes like you can Cara Wilson having sex. And she experiences this at 12 and goes to her dad and is like, crying and feels so ashamed, even though it's like, not her, but, like, people on the Internet want to watch this of her and, like, how much that has must have impacted her.

[Mara Wilson]

And also you have to remember that like a 12 year old you know, no matter how smart, no matter how whatever you are, a 12 year old completely understands what's happening there. Like it's not, this is not the kind of situation where she sees that and is like, what does this mean? It's like at 12 you can completely comprehend, oh, an adult person is putting my face on another child's body and is like making some weird sex shit about me. Like that. All of that you can comprehend at 12. You just can't process it the way that like maybe an older person might be able to. And that's really like the big disconnect here that is truly like so fundamentally evil beyond all of the obvious fundamentally evil stuff about it.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, I just want to underline what you said because that it just articulates something I think about a lot, which is that you can fully comprehend and understand what is happening when you are very young. You just can't process it. That's it. Dang. Okay, well, speaking of, I want to read this next part of the book. She said, At 16, I opened a magazine and saw a familiar face. Six years earlier, I had met a pretty friendly 12 year old girl with red hair at a press conference on child acting. When a reporter asked if if any of us had trouble with the kids at school, she'd said the kids at her middle school had teased her so badly she had transferred to a special school for child actors and performers. She had done much better there and made lots of friends. It had stuck in my mind whenever public school was miserable. I reminded myself that there were other schools just for people like me where they'd understand. After the press conference, we all hung out and I tried to talk to the pretty red haired girl more. I wanted to ask her what had happened at her school and how I would know if it had gotten so bad that I should transfer. Instead, I watched her pull a balloon off a display, suck in the helium and sing we're the Chipmunks. She wasn't in such a serious mood anymore and it made me like her more. There was just something very attractive about her. A kind, cool older sister vibe. And I wanted to be her friend. My own note is is this and the next sentence is, Dad, I really like Scarlet. Can we hang out? Okay. So I was like, this is amazing. And then literally a paragraph later she said, when I opened the magazine, there was Scarlett looking beautiful, talking about her role in a film with Bill Murray. And she was most definitely a woman. She was in grown up movies now, being sexy, probably doing that thing where men cross Their arms in front of them to take off their shirts. How had she done it? There was a sinking feeling in my stomach. Scarlett was only two or three years older than I was. So this is where I put down the book and I said, wait, how old was Scarlett Johansson when she films Lost in Translation, which is a movie I famously hate? And I looked it up. I do. Yeah. And. And I will say we have this behind the bangs course that we teach about storytelling, and I shit on that movie before, and there's a lot of people who fight against me. And I'm like, yes, please. Love it. Scarlett Johansson was 17 when she filmed that movie. Bill Murray was 50. Does that change things for you?

[Mara Wilson]

Wow. I did not know that. That changes everything about that movie for me. Oh, my God.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Because when Mara was writing it, I was, you know, because Mara and I are the same age, I was like, what do you mean? She's just a few years older than you in Lost? In, like. Because my brain had watched that thinking, she's like 30 year old woman. Yes.

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And so fucking 17 years old. Unbelievable. So anyways, I have always been, like, kind of mad at this movie for storytelling reasons, but I do want to call out that again. Students in behind the Banks taught me that the movie, her and Lost in Translation are both about the same relationship, which is the marriage of Spike Jones and Sofia Coppola.

[Mara Wilson]

This I did know.

[Chelsea Devantes]

You did know this. Okay.

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

So, well, it was interesting to me because then I was like, wait, is there an age difference between Spike and Sophia? No, it's really about loneliness, feeling lonely in hotels and this, like, platonic love she has with Bill Murray. But I still say to myself then, did she have to be 17?

[Mara Wilson]

Slash, like, does the opening shot need to be her ass? Yeah, like, you know, Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I was like, oh, my God, it's Scarlett Johansson. Then I was like, just so sad.

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah. That changes so much of the section for me because, like, part of me related to this section because I feel like another very quintessential child star experience is going to school with someone or meeting someone briefly one time, becoming friends with them, and then being like, oh, I hope I see them again. And then the next time you see them is them being, like, the most famous person in the world while you're still in your, like, studio apartment. Like, I feel like.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah.

[Mara Wilson]

And I'm sure you, like, as in comedy, in entertainment in general, that happens a lot.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Oh, yeah. I would say, like, when you met someone, you're like, oh, my God, they're So cool. I hope I see them again. And you turn around, they're famous. That's like, kind of a cool feeling, I would say. The feeling that's unbearable is when you meet someone, you're like, what an untalented, like, piece of. I hope I never see them again. And you turn around and they're famous. Now that one is. Now that puts me down.

[Mara Wilson]

Well, but it must be so. Particularly because she's 17 in that movie. It must. And I'm sure Mara, the way she writes about it is like, she's so jealous, but. But, you know, that must be such an interesting experience to meet someone. Be like, wow, like, we're bonding because we're, like, using helium to make our voices sound weird. And then, like, two years later, she's on the COVID of this, like, kind of sexy movie, you know, doing this very, very adult role. It almost makes me be like, oh, my God, like, I want to protect her. Like, that is my friend who I. Who I was being such a kid with. And now she's being such an adult. My God.

[Chelsea Devantes]

But also that thing of, like, how did she go from being a child star to, like, a real actress with beauty? Whereas, like, I haven't made that leap yet because I'm still, like, 15 and trying to figure it out.

[Mara Wilson]

Why am I not being sexualized?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Like, why am I not being sexualized? And, yeah, put in a movie with an old man.

[Mara Wilson]

Am I not sexy enough because I'm.

[Chelsea Devantes]

A minor, which Scarlett is as well. Yeah. And then on what you just said, she wrote, I'd pass news stance on my way to class, clad in pajama pants and one of Sam's shirts, which is her boyfriend in college. And see my former friends and peers, Hillary Duff, Scarlett Johansson, and inevitably, Kristen Stewart on magazine covers looking immaculate. And listen, the class Mara's on her way to, clad in pajama pants is my class. So, like, I know this moment in time and to realize that this is what was happening to her as she walked to class. I want to, like, run off a cliff.

[Mara Wilson]

It again, particularly going. And I'm sure, like, you know, this going to nyu, it's like you just. You cross paths with. With so many people, and especially when you're young, you're just like, we're all the same, and we're all, like, on this journey together, and we're all buddies. And then, you know, two years go by, and suddenly half of those people have, like, eclipsed you. When again, particularly for Mara, who's coming into these spaces being like, I had all of these incredible huge credits. I was so far. If you haven't read the book, Kristen Stewart gets a role over her. Gets like a debut role over her. When Kristen Stewart is very young and Mara is like, who the hell is this girl? So I particularly really relate to being like, I'm the most successful person in this room. And then like very, very, very quickly blinking and being like, oh my God, all of these people are doing everything I want to do. And more. Even though two seconds ago I was the person who was ahead of them. And it's like it is so like I said again, it almost comes for your identity, particularly again. Cause so much of this book is about Mara's appearance and her being like. Like I'm a good actor. Am I not pretty enough? Am I not hot enough? Am I not like susceptible to being sexualized enough?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yes. Oh, Ruby, this is like everything you're saying is so intense. Like just thinking about like you and Mara going through this like at such a young age. It's just that that's where it's like, no, I want to like hug this away. Even though like what you said about it being about her looks. She said one of our teachers was like, do you even want to be an actor? It was a fair question. I tended to freeze up and self sabotage and that was when I wasn't sleeping through them. I didn't know what I wanted, but I wanted it to be my choice. I didn't want to stop acting because I had to because I was too ugly. And later she writes, as I saw it, when it came to careers, I had three choices. Get cosmetic surgery and go out on auditions for the cute and funny best friend characters. Which hilarious. Get surgery to be the cute, funny best friend.

[Mara Wilson]

To be the quirky best friend. Yeah, exactly.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Stay the way I was and go out for meager character actor roles for young women or accept myself and give up the idea of a Hollywood film and acting career. The discussion was always a long time coming. But somewhere inside myself I had always known what I would do. Being pretty glamorous and impervious to rejection. The necessary characteristics of a Hollywood actress were clearly not my strength. I thought I would miss film acting, but to my surprise I never did. Which that made me really happy.

[Mara Wilson]

How incredible that she was able to come to that conclusion. Because I can't tell you, a lot of people don't like if that is a very, very hard truth to accept.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I mean, have you ever had lol? I already know the answer, but it's like, you know, you have a hard moment in this business and you have the thought of, like, is there something else I could do? And I remember. I remember teachers being like, if there's anything else in the world you could do, I. It. Do it.

[Mara Wilson]

You don't want to do this.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah.

[Mara Wilson]

While you're at NYU, you're paying $100,000 a year to be there. And you're like, I'm here all now.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Also, like, mine was loans.

[Mara Wilson]

So I was like, what?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Like, I'm in debt already.

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah. You're like, wait, what do you mean? I can do something else?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Also, like, why did you devote your life to it? And it always felt like a challenge, and it felt like a shitty way to process this question. But even now I feel like I have a very healthy processing for it. And it is still hard to be like, no, I've never found the other thing. And I think if you could, though. And Mara. Mara found writing and was like, yeah, and I don't miss this. And I'm happy. I feel like there's. Yeah, like you said, there's a lot of people who are missing out on that realization because people make it a really shitty thing to choose to walk away.

[Mara Wilson]

I also think, again, it's what I was saying about, like, identity. Like Mara says, when something is your constant, the one thing so much in your life is so unstable, but one thing remains true. It's impossible to abandon that. You know what I mean?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Cause you're abandoning yourself.

[Mara Wilson]

It's also like, at least you know, she's a brilliant writer. I think for me, my mom instilled in my head at a very young age. She was like, we used to have this joke that I was like a girl with brown hair and brown eyes, that no one was ever going to be writing anything for me.

[Chelsea Devantes]

A joke or the truth. Ruby as a girl with brown hair and brown eyes, well, it's one of.

[Mara Wilson]

Those things where it's like, you look around at the girls in your acting class. Most of them are just as pretty as you, if not at least in New York City. It was like, I tell my friends this all the time. I was going to school with literal Calvin Klein models. Like, not like figurative, like true actual models. And so I never was like, you know, I'm not pretty. But I always knew that nothing was ever gonna be like, we wrote a role for you. And so from a very young age, I knew that I could not have just one skill, which is, I think, why I did many things.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I gotta diversify early I was like, my mom.

[Mara Wilson]

My mom used to say to me, she'd be like, no one's gonna write a role for you but yourself. And not. Not in a scary, bad way.

[Chelsea Devantes]

No, that is. That is advice that I wish. Yeah, you have to create your own work. It's honestly the only way. Unless you were born rich or even. Honestly, even when you do look like the perfect blonde model, they might not write a role for you. Like, and you got to write it yourself.

[Mara Wilson]

Exactly. And so, you know, I thankfully had a very smart mom who saw what was going on and was able to kind of, you know, force me to not just be like, I want to be an actress. I want to be on Broadway. Like, my mom was always like, you need to be able to do more than one thing. And I think something I love about the way Mara writes, her finding storytelling is in the very beginning, she tells a story about how, like, one time on set with Mrs. Doubtfire, they were like, mara, can we, like, test your mic? Tell a story? And she, like, goes on this, like, really, really, really long story. And it ends with Robin Will being like, did you get all that? Like, something, like, really cute like that? And you almost realize as you're reading the book that for her, yes, she has acting. But, like, her really, her one constant is storytelling, which is what acting is. It is a form of storytelling. And I think it's so beautiful that, like, thank God she was able to recognize that acting was not just her one skill, because I actually believe that all people don't just have one skill. I think that it's possible to be good at more than one thing. And I think that, like, it's almost like a trap that either your teachers or someone evil teaches you that, like, you can only do this one thing. I mean, it's like, look at pop stars like Ruby.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Thank you for saying that. And I'm also, like, so sad that it happened to you, because I think I had this, like, wishful thinking that it had gone away in my generation, but, like, it really was like, choose one. Are you a writer or are you an actor or are you a director? Because you cannot do.

[Mara Wilson]

You can't do both.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. Can't you both? And I remember thinking, like, oh, I'm a failure if I walk away from acting. Because that had been presented to me as like, well, that. That's only for dilapidated losers. And because I was paying them to probably tell me that at theaters.

[Mara Wilson]

You're paying them to tell you that? Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And there was something so excruciatingly difficult in realizing that I was a writer. Like, it wasn't, like, a fun journey because I've been taught to view it as. As failing.

[Mara Wilson]

Well, you. You're taught to view writing as, like, the, like, sad alternate. Like, the. Oh, you couldn't make it as an actor. Like, I guess you'll be right. And it's.

[Chelsea Devantes]

You had to write.

[Mara Wilson]

No, and it's actually very, very difficult to make it as a writer, if not more difficult than an actor. Like, it's to. To get someone to pay you money to produce your writing is for your own thoughts. Like. Yeah, for your own thoughts. Like. And also the. This conception that, you know you can't do both or that you shouldn't do both is truly just a way to prevent people from working.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Like, it's 100%. I do think it's very gendered. They haven't really bat an eye when men do it. They're like, well, of course, because he's a man, so, like, he knows how to direct. But with women, it was just like, we don't want your thoughts or feelings or decisions, so, like, just act and, like, we don't want you behind the camera.

[Mara Wilson]

I'm a huge pop star person. I love pop stars. I'm just so fascinated by them. And I. I watched this happen, literally, to every single pop star I follow on so many different scales. I mean, like, you look at Ariana Grande, who, like, every interview you see John Chu do about her, he's like, yeah, well, we all thought she was gonna be a diva. Bad, terrible, like, shitty actress. Like, the way you saw. You're like, oh, my God.

[Chelsea Devantes]

You're like, john, why'd you think these things?

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. He's like, oh, God, we thought she was just gonna be the worst. And you're like, well, why? Like, like, why? And it's like, because. And they were like, because she's Ariana Grande. And it's like, yeah, like, she also started on Broadway. Like, people contain multitudes. Like, what the fuck? Even, like, Beyonce being like, I'm doing country music. And that was, like, a big deal.

[Chelsea Devantes]

They can't allow a woman multitudes in that. Like, no.

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Ariana can lick a donut and date Pete Davidson and also wildly talented, but also have shitty relationships in her life, but also help Cynthia Riva with all the music and the harmonies and the studio mixes.

[Mara Wilson]

It's so funny that, like, literally anytime a woman does, like, anything that is, like, one singular step out of the bounds of what we've confined them to, it's like, trending on Twitter for three days. And it's like. It's like Beyonce simply just put out a country album. Like, please chill the fuck out. But we can't.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That is so, so well said. Okay, I want to hit some quick highlights, and then we're gonna get into the college stuff. But she said she would go online, there'd be horrible articles written about, like, her looks, her face, who she was dating, like, all this stuff. And she said once I actually contacted the author of a list titled Ugliest Former Child actors to ask her why, as a woman, she was perpetuating a ridiculous beauty standard and punishing other women for the way they looked. She wrote me back immediately to apologize. Quote, I write stupid things on the Internet to pay the bills. She said, I can't afford integr. You love to hear it, though, you know, and you really do have to remember that, like, if they're not doing it for money, they're doing it because they hate themselves. Which I know is like, oh, they're insecure. But, like, it really always. Is that where people. When people are vicious, like, for fun, it's like, oh, no. You have a hard time inside your.

[Mara Wilson]

Own brain, particularly towards, like, a child. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, a child. Oh, my God. There was another like, like, theater review that was like, there's Mara Wilson again, using her little lisp. Aren't we over this stick? And it's like, she is five, and you are a movie critic. She's five.

[Mara Wilson]

You're actually an adult.

[Chelsea Devantes]

The list actually isn't a choice, you psychopath. And then I loved this other part where she gets a hold of this book called Kissing Doorknobs, and it's about ocd. And she has this thought where she's like, oh, my God, this book is about my life. And she gives the book to her dad, and she was like, dad, I'm experiencing this. I'm experiencing all these obsessive thoughts, and it's a disorder, and I can get help for it, and I want help, but you have to help me. And at first, he's like, mara, you're not crazy. You're not insane. All those words. And he's like, you don't have this. But then he reads the book and is like, okay, this sounds. Sounds like it's actually really causing this person pain. I've set up an appointment with the therapist for you. And I said, theme of the podcast. It's a theme of the podcast where, like, a book sets you free because someone has, like, written your Story in a way that you can't articulate yet. And it made me really happy that she got, like, help for ocd, which earlier you talked about control being a hard thing for a child to understand. Okay. And now it's a child who had undiagnosed ocd.

[Mara Wilson]

Exactly.

[Chelsea Devantes]

So intense.

[Mara Wilson]

It's also how lovely that her dad, like, heard her.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah.

[Mara Wilson]

Because I think literally, it wasn't until, like, a couple years ago that I think medication and mental illness became, like, widely acknowledged as not a hoax. Like, I think my very progressive mother for a very long time was like, you don't need medicine for mental illness. You just deal with that. That.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Wow.

[Mara Wilson]

Like, that's just. That's life.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I have to tell you. I also have an extremely progressive, like, super smart, amazing mom t. Momsy. Shout out to Team Omsy, who also was taught. She was taught their generation was taught.

[Mara Wilson]

Their generous taught that.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That these medicines fuck your brain up and are bad for you and there's other ways to deal with it. And so it's like, oh, no, my daughter is taking something bad for her, and you're like, no, no, no, no, no, I've been set free.

[Mara Wilson]

No. And so it's. It's truly, like. Like, really, really incredible that not only was she able to find this book and be like, oh, my God, this is me. This is my experience, but that she was also able to get help. And I also. Again, going back to the control thing, can you imagine one having a life so out of your control, on top of it, having literally, like, a control diagnosis?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah.

[Mara Wilson]

Again, the weight of the world that was on this little girl's shoulders, it's like you just. This whole book, you're just like, I just want to give you a hug and tell you that you're so smart and you're. Everything's gonna be okay.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I love that. Yeah, absolutely. There's still so much more. She goes through the book, then kind of moves into going to college, which was nyu. And one thing that I talked to her about is that she gets a boyfriend right away. His name's Sam in the book, and she meets him in the shitty writing class that everyone had to take. And they have this, like. Like, really beautiful, kind of like, fall in love relationship where he says, like, I wish there was a machine that I could just punch, and it would tell me, like, you're handsome and smart and cool and, like, everyone likes you. And Mara goes, well, I can be that machine for you, and you can be it for me. And they, you know, playfully Tap each other back and forth and tell each other how cute they are. And the relationship even ends, and he's like, a total dick. But you still. Because it's college, it was so sweet for a while and it served her for so long. And she, like, got to have this partner in college during the worst years after having all these worries about, like, her looks and things like that, where. I don't know, it made me very happy.

[Mara Wilson]

I mean, like, of course, it ended, like, a little weird because college, but.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And because him. Yeah.

[Mara Wilson]

And because boy.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah.

[Mara Wilson]

But I will say, I think everyone, no matter if you grew up a child star or not, like, that experience of falling in love is so crucial because it makes you realize, like, oh, I'm, like, worthy and capable of doing all of these things that I've spent my whole childhood telling myself I'm not capable of. I think for her specifically, you as the reader, after seeing her, you know, have these, like, spin the bottle interactions, having all of these crushes that fail and whatnot, you're like, oh, my God, thank God she's finally met someone once again her age who sees her value and tells you her value. Because I feel like up to that point, the only people really validating her were, like, Robin Williams, like, people who were these giants. Which is amazing, but from, like, a human perspective, it's like you want someone to, like, love you in a way that's like, we can share a bed and we can have a real connection beyond work or beyond just a friendship.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, yeah. And outside of set, I mean, one really beautiful thing about this book, like, there are stories about being on these films, but it's more from, like, a really sweet child perspective. But one takeaway I had is that, wow, she really like Danny DeVito and Robin Williams. In a business full of scoundrels. It's, like, so beautiful that she got these two really great men as these figures in her life. And when we were in college is when Robin Williams died. And she wrote in the book that she felt so bad because she had said no to Mrs. Doubtfire 2 and she hadn't connected with Robin, and she immediately thought, like, oh, no, was me saying no to this movie, like, part of it. And obviously all these things that couldn't have gone into it. But she wrote about Robin Williams being really shy, which I think still shocks people when they learn it, because he. He was. He was so shy. But it was, like, through performing. And you can even see his interviews, his actors access where, like, he. He doesn't answer the Questions. He takes over and starts, like, doing bits in a. In a pretty compulsive way. And yeah, she wrote about his death and he died by suicide. And I don't. It was just heartbreaking. That's a heartbreaking one that I still can't wrap my head around. And knowing that, like, he was there in her life as a child and she had to experience this, that was a really sad part of the book.

[Mara Wilson]

The way she writes about him is so beautiful and so heartfelt and so genuine. And it's like, of course, even as an adult, it's hard to process, like, why and how and all of those things. But I think the one thing that really stuck with me from that part is one of the things he said to her and her brother was they were like, well, how do you get audiences to be so obsessed with you? Like, you're. You're this, like, shy guy, but you're also this big person. Like, how do you do it? And he says, it's what you leave in and what you put out. Not like, it's what you leave out and put in. It's what you leave in and put out. And she writes about how they're, like, perplexed by, like, what that could possibly mean. And I think I perceive that as, like, it's what he keeps for himself, which is, like, why he might come off as shy. And then once he's on camera, it's what you put out of like, okay, and now I'm gonna, like, give you guys, like, this is like, the parts of me that I know you all love and my, like, extroverted self. But to be that extroverted self, you have to leave some for yourself. And I think that quote is very indicative of their relationship, how she looks up to him, our relationship as a public audience to him. And I think the best comedians I know are not people who are doing bits 24 7. The best comedians I know are people who are real people who, like, in their day to day life are, you know, funny people, of course, but they turn on on stage and then they turn off when they're not on stage. And I think that shocks a lot of people. But it's like, no, comedy is a profession and acting is a profession. And being a funny person, yes, comes naturally to people, but it is, it is a job. And I do love that he was a real person who valued being a real person because I think that definitely contributed to why he was so great to her and also just like a great human being.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, I agree with that. And I will add, though, I think he kept a lot of the sadness and darkness in with himself as opposed to sharing it and bringing it out, because people are not good with dealing with the dark parts. And so I think he kept it in. And I do think, like, sometimes you do have to give that shit out and be like, listen, like, I am not your, like, non stop comedy bit person. Like, I'm suffering. Someone help me. But, yeah, that was such a complicated relationship. And then sort of the end of the book is these college stories which were really, like, yeah, weird. And then really, it moves into. Because, you know, we were in acting school. So it moves into her realizing that, like, she doesn't want to act. She. She wants to write and she wants to tell stories. And she goes to this night of, like, storytelling. This is how the book ends. And she bombs. And it's such a good story because there was a surprise comedian there that night and she didn't know who it was. And after she bombs, they're like, it was Zach Galifianakis who watched the whole thing. And she was like, oh, great. And. And it ends. I loved this ending because it wasn't like the very, very end. But she goes to this bar that she knew, and she said, teddy, I just did the worst show I've ever done. And he says, well, come sit down and have a drink. Watch my husband take off his clothes.

[Mara Wilson]

Because it was like.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And I said, that is how I want. Every time I bomb. I wish I could go in and be like, I bombed. And they're like, all right, well, come on in. Have a drink. My husband's gonna take off his clothes. It'll be fun. And, yeah. And then the book ends where she says, someday I would figure it out. Storytelling and everything else. At the very least, I had found my people. I was home. And then throughout the acknowledgments, there's, like, some of our teachers and some classmates and. And things like that, which is, like, so wild.

[Mara Wilson]

Wait, that's awesome.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I try and stay away from it on the podcast, but it's like, yeah, it's so. It's so fun to read the memoir of so someone you know. But also, like, so. Yeah, it's just so interesting. Okay, it is time for us to do the booktal test. There are three questions. We're both going to answer all three. First question, was the author vulnerable in the sharing of their truth?

[Mara Wilson]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, for sure.

[Mara Wilson]

Yes, for sure.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Second question, was it entertaining to read?

[Mara Wilson]

Yeah. Truly insanely interesting stories. Very specific. Circumstances also just a. She's a good writer.

[Chelsea Devantes]

It's.

[Mara Wilson]

She's good at reeling you in. It's compelling.

[Chelsea Devantes]

It.

[Mara Wilson]

It's. It's truly. It's great.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. She was also 27 when she wrote this thing. I'm also a. Yes. But I do have to acknowledge, like, I think it's impossible to read the memoir of someone you know, and it's not, like, the most riveting thing you've ever read. So I was riveted, but I am biased. I cannot be objective. Okay, final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

[Mara Wilson]

You know, I genuinely was, like, jaw dropped at a lot of parts of this book because I particularly resonated with so much of this that made me be like, oh, not only was my experience, like, not unique, but there are people who have actually experienced it on an even more heightened scale, particularly in the beginning. There's lines that are like. Lots of kids have, like, embarrassing videos of them. Not a lot of them have them copyrighted by 20th Century Fox. Like, her tendency to blurt out secrets and being compulsively honest. Like, all of these things that are things that I was always like, oh, I'm just. Ruby. Like, I'm just like, I grew up performing, so, like, I do all these things to read it in the context of someone else who lived a similar but very different life than me. I was like, oh, there's, like, a reason that all of these things are true for me. And at the same time, like, lots of people find videos of Mara Wilson very cute. She finds them very, like, weird and embarrassing to watch. That's exactly how I feel. So truly, it was like. Like reading my own diary of, like, wow. Like, these are all thoughts I have on a daily basis about myself. So it. I truly found a lot of comfort in this book.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That makes me so happy, Ruby, because also, yeah, I feel like there's nothing more beautiful than feeling very alone, only to realize that someone else felt at times the exact same way. And then you realize, like, oh, it was the system doing it to all of us, and we just haven't spoken about it.

[Mara Wilson]

Exactly.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. That was so beautifully said. And I'm a yes, too. Though I will say, our conversation between me and her, that was what really elevated my life because, like, I was even nervous to DM her to come on the podcast, and she was like, I thought you would never want it to be my friend. And I was like, wait, but you're Amara Wilson. Like, what are you talking about?

[Mara Wilson]

And what are you talking about?

[Chelsea Devantes]

And just to kind of like, dissect, like. Yeah. How you feel about yourself in theater school when you're 19 and like, the weird, shitty images you can carry at the same time to like, keep you apart from each other. So that was really elevating for me personally. I'm so glad we read this. I wouldn't have revisited it on this podcast if it weren't for you, Ruby. So thank you so much, so much for being here. I'm so upset. I live in LA and I can't come to your show. Please tell everyone just more about your show and where they can find you and follow you and support your work.

[Mara Wilson]

Oh my God. Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun. I am so glad I read this book. You guys can find me at rubykarp R U B Y K A R P anywhere on social media. My show is going to be running at Soho Plus Playhouse from March 26 through May 3. It's called I Don't Trust Adults and please don't Read My Memoir. I ban all of you from doing that.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I know you are going. I can, like, sense, like, you've got another one coming. I am now such a huge fan of yours. Like, I'm about to go look up everything you've ever done. So, like, thank you for introducing me to your work.

[Mara Wilson]

No. And if I did anything before the age of last year, I forbid all of you from looking at any of it.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I'll look at all of you because I've been back. Thank you. A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hom, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks but you want to support independent at bookstores, go to Libro fm where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code TRASH. That's right, TRASH. T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of 1 at Libro FM. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.