Colson Whitehead on Life After Two Pulitzers, 'Cool Machine' and What He's Still Chasing

Summary

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Glass Half Full with Craig Melvin

Episode: Colson Whitehead on Life After Two Pulitzers, ‘Cool Machine,’ and What He’s Still Chasing

Date: July 21, 2026

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Overview

In this special episode, Craig Melvin sits down with acclaimed author Colson Whitehead, twice recipient of the Pulitzer Prize, to discuss his creative process, the conclusion of his Ray Carney trilogy (Cool Machine), his relationship with New York City, genre-bending career, and what drives him both as a writer and a person. With trademark candor and humor, Whitehead reflects on the challenges of balancing ambition, recognition, and authenticity, while sharing personal stories about family, hobbies, and even getting his driver’s license in his 50s.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Glass Half Full or Half Empty? (01:36)

• Whitehead confesses he’s a “glass half empty” guy—not out of personal pessimism, but a “societal perspective.”
  • Quote:
    “I’m half empty, definitely.” (Colson Whitehead, 01:36) “If you read the paper, you know, that’s where we are.” (01:50)
  • He points to climate change, the Supreme Court, assaults on civil rights, and more.
• Craig teases out the distinction between Whitehead’s worldview and the generally positive reception he enjoys.
  • Quote:
    “You would be okay... things are going pretty well.” (Craig Melvin, 02:13)
    “Well, you know, climate change, reactionary Supreme Court... it’s kind of half empty.” (Whitehead, 02:26)

2. Writing about the Past—and the Present (02:58)

• Whitehead discusses how historical novels naturally reflect present realities.
  • Writing about white supremacy in the context of The Underground Railroad brought out timeless societal themes: “Some things are eternal. Slave economy was the maturity of capitalism, and of course now we live in a hyper capitalist state.” (02:58)
  • He believes human nature is “pretty static” and universal over time.

3. The Centrality of New York City in the Trilogy (03:54)

• Ray Carney series is set in Harlem, but Whitehead is “not a Harlem maniac”—he loves many neighborhoods.
  • On why Harlem: He wanted to write a heist novel—“If you’re gonna do a Black crime novel in New York City, it’s either Harlem or Brooklyn. And, you know, Harlem is just sitting there.”* (04:22)
• Shoe-leather research:
  • Whitehead grew up in Harlem until age 6. He “zigzagged” through its streets imagining crime scenes:
    “Is this where Ray Carney has his office?... Is this a good place to dump a body?... Did a lot of body dumping. Just for research.” (04:56-05:18)
• Dedication to New York “freaking” City:
  • Leaned into the city as a character—similar to Ulysses and Dublin.
  • Reflects the city’s shifting fortunes from the 1960s through the AIDS crisis and crack epidemic of the 1980s.

4. Political and Social Themes in His Work (07:13)

• Whitehead rejects the expectation that artists must be political:
  • Quote:
    “The only mission of an artist is not to make crappy art. That's job one.” (07:13)
• For him, excellence and storytelling come first:
  • “If I can have a compelling story, great characters, and also talk about these larger social structures… I’m really happy and challenged.”* (07:26)

5. Ray Carney—How Much is Colson? (08:03)

• Some overlap—both love New York, both appreciate mid-century modern furniture.
• Ray is always striving, but can’t escape his past—an experience Whitehead relates to the universal human condition.
  • Quote:
    “All of us have these unresolved parts, and we're embracing or rejecting parts of ourselves that we love or don't like as much.” (09:42)

6. Relatable Characters and The Churn (11:31)

• Whitehead’s aim: Regardless of reader background, you see yourself in his characters—even “zombie hunters or a furniture store owner.”
• The Churn:
  • Literal and metaphorical circulation—bribes, stolen goods, generations moving through the same buildings.
    • “The facades are the same, but inside there's been this great churn of people.” (11:46–12:47)
  • City as a living organism; people transforming over decades.

7. On Empathy and Imagination (13:21)

• Whitehead’s method: Research, imagination, and empathy even for lives he hasn’t lived (“I’m not a zombie hunter. I wrote a book about zombie hunters.”)
• Writing about “the layers” of New York is a way to channel universal feelings about home and change.

8. Adaptation, Options, and Genre-Hopping (14:33)

• The Carney trilogy has been optioned by Apple for TV—Whitehead himself prefers others adapt his work:
  • Quote:
    “Whenever I write a screenplay, people are like, ‘Oh, you’re such a good novelist, why would you...?’” (15:09)
• He avoids imagining which actors would play his characters—focuses on “their essence.”
• Reveals his love for horror, science fiction, and genre movies as a child—his career is an echo of that curiosity.
• Genre-switching keeps things “fresh”—inspired by directors like Stanley Kubrick.
  • Quote:
    “If you do something once, why do it again?... If you do the same thing over and over again, you're probably not challenging yourself.” (17:08)

9. Expectations, Identity, and Motives (18:37)

• Satirizes the “post-racial” label post-Obama; current crises refute any such notion.
  • “Only then [zombie apocalypse] will we be actually post-racial because everyone's dead.” (18:56)
• Whitehead feels no obligation to write on specific issues—prefers to avoid “crappy work.”
  • “Life is pretty short, so you shouldn't worry about other people's ideas of what you should be writing. You should write what you want to write.” (19:31)

10. Future Ambitions & Work Process (19:56, 20:57)

• Teases unrealized genres—possible “straight sci-fi,” or (jokingly) “a romance set on the eve of the Russian Revolution.”
• Reveals workflow: Doesn’t “write every day”—aims for six pages a week, works when he’s inspired.
  • “People say, write every day. That feels like a real imposition on my lifestyle, frankly.” (21:04)
  • Details his “process”: Write, nap, “spontaneous weeping,” get back to work.

11. Hobbies, Rest, and Inspiration (22:02)

• Cooks, smokes ribs and brisket, plays video games, and goofs off between books.
• Uses downtime to clear his head before working again.

12. Artificial Intelligence and Writing (22:29)

• Cautions against “overuse of these [AI] tools” reducing cognitive faculties.
• Relates a humorous story where ChatGPT generated the “Law & Order” opening for him when he sought help during writer’s block.
  • “Chung CHUNG was sort of a giveaway that maybe it had plagiarized something.” (23:40)
• For Whitehead, real art means doing the work yourself; AI can’t take that away from the craft.
  • “If you're using AI for your writing, for your poem, for your painting, you're not doing the work. A certain amount of suffering is supposed to be baked in there.” (23:56)

13. Fatherhood, Identity, and the Next Generation (26:19)

• Discusses explaining difficult history (Holocaust, slavery) to his young, biracial, Jewish son.
• Son prefers nonfiction (“Can I get that new Churchill biography?”).
• Whitehead’s childhood: Halloween, horror stories, Marvel comics, Stephen King.

14. On Labels and Expectations (28:26)

• Chafes at the question of whether he’s “a Black writer or a writer who happens to be Black.”
  • “Is that a dumb question or a question that happens to be dumb? I contain multitudes. We all do.” (28:36)

15. The Writer's Role, Balance, and Pressure (29:11)

• Emphasizes personal satisfaction and interest as the true reason to write, not external pressures or the expectation to opine on all major issues.
• On balancing life and work: The work is “only one part” of his life.
• Winning multiple Pulitzers doesn’t add pressure; he’s more concerned about meeting his own standards.
  • “Other people's expectations are other people's expectations. And so if it comes to pressure, I put more pressure on myself than anybody else could.” (31:03)
  • “It’s you against your ambitions, you against what you want for the book, your own limitations...” (31:37)
• Reception matters, but the craft and “getting it right” are the motivators.
  • “It’s better when people like your books, definitely... Getting it right is the motivation.” (32:09–32:15)

16. Legacy, Pride, and Future Challenges (32:22)

• He hopes people enjoy at least one of his books post-apocalypse.
  • “If people like one of my books, I’m really happy... that’s a lot, to reach someone in that way.” (32:30)
• The book he’s proudest of is always the latest: Cool Machine.
  • “It’s closest to who I am. I really think I did what I set out to do.” (33:10)
• The “moment he’s still chasing”: Recently got his driver’s license in his 50s, jokes about that being his great mountain climbed.
• Next project: Novel set in the 1910s—“not something I’ve done before.” Always seeking new challenges.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On his pessimism:
  “I’ve had 56 years to think about it.” (Whitehead on being half-empty, 01:39)
• On art’s mission:
  “The only mission of an artist is not to make crappy art.” (07:13)
• On research for crime novels:
  “I did a lot of body dumping. Just for research.” (05:16)
• On empathy for characters:
  “It’s your job to get it right, to write about people who are not like you.” (13:21)
• On parenting:
  “We successfully explained the Holocaust, slavery...but we couldn’t explain why Jar Jar Binks was racist.” (26:28)
• On AI plagiarism:
  “Chung CHUNG was sort of a giveaway that maybe it had plagiarized something.” (23:40)
• On labels:
  “Is that a dumb question or a question that happens to be dumb? I contain multitudes. We all do.” (28:36)
• On legacy:
  “If people like one of my books, I’m really happy... that’s a lot, to reach someone in that way.” (32:30)
• On life/work balance:
  “At the end of the day, I just like hanging out with my family and cooking for everybody. And the work is only one part of my life.” (30:00)

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Significant Timestamps

• 01:36–02:42: Whitehead’s worldview: half-empty, societal pessimism
• 02:58–04:22: Writing history to comment on the present; why Harlem
• 05:16–05:31: "Body dumping" research for realism
• 06:03–06:44: New York as a character, ebbs and flows of the city
• 07:13–07:51: Art, politics, and Whitehead’s core mission
• 09:42–10:23: On Ray Carney's (and all of our) unresolved identities
• 11:31–13:03: The “Churn”—generations and personal transformation
• 14:33–16:04: TV/Film adaptation, how Whitehead visualizes his characters
• 17:08–17:38: Why he never repeats genres
• 18:37–19:53: Satire on post-racial America; “write what you want to write”
• 21:04–21:57: Work process: not writing every day, naps, family
• 22:29–23:56: AI, ChatGPT, and the artist’s labor
• 26:19–27:35: Talking race, identity, and nonfiction with his son
• 28:36–29:00: Rejecting limiting labels
• 30:00–31:03: Keeping proportion; not buckling under Pulitzer pressure
• 32:30–33:41: Thoughts on legacy and favorite books
• 33:45–35:11: Learning to drive in his 50s—humorous “mountain climbed”
• 35:31–36:00: Next project will always be the biggest challenge

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Conclusion & Overall Tone

Throughout the conversation, Colson Whitehead is insightful, wry, and self-aware, combining seriousness about his craft with a light, irreverent touch. He demystifies the writing life, reflects on identity and success, and reiterates the importance of personal satisfaction and authenticity over external expectation. Despite (or because of) immense success, he stays attuned to the joys and absurdities of everyday life—whether cooking for his family, goofing off between books, or, finally, learning to drive.

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For listeners or readers, this episode provides both a window into the mind of one of America’s most original novelists and practical wisdom for anyone striving for excellence, creativity, and balance.

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Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Craig Melvin]

Hey there, everyone. Craig Melvin here, and welcome to a special edition of Glass Half Full. This, of course, is the podcast where we really like to dig into the moments that shape people's lives personally, professionally, as well. And I'm really excited about today's conversation because it's one of my favorite writers on the planet, Colson Whitehead. He's won two Pulitzers. Just genre bending. I mean, he's done everything from fiction to nonfiction to zombie apocalypse. Has done it all. We talk about his newest book, it's the end of the trilogy of Ray Carney. But we also talk about his process. We talk about his hobbies, we talk about his upbringing, how all of that has created the Colson Whitehead that we've come to know and enjoy. I hope you enjoy this edition, the special edition of Glass E. So we start every podcast with the same question for every guest, regardless of their Pulitzer Prize winning status. Are you a glass half full guy or are you a glass half empty guy?

[Colson Whitehead]

I'm half empty, definitely.

[Craig Melvin]

That was quick.

[Colson Whitehead]

I've had 56 years to think about it.

[Craig Melvin]

Why are you glass half empty?

[Colson Whitehead]

I don't know.

[Craig Melvin]

I mean, that's pretty cynical.

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, you know, I mean, if you, you know, read the paper, you know, that's where we are.

[Craig Melvin]

So have you always been a glass half empty guy, or is this.

[Colson Whitehead]

I have. And I don't see that changing anytime

[Craig Melvin]

soon at any point in your life.

[Colson Whitehead]

I had a cat I liked. His name was tricky.

[Craig Melvin]

Okay.

[Colson Whitehead]

He's a very cool cat.

[Craig Melvin]

Okay. Okay. I mean, you gotta elaborate a little bit more on this. One might assume that a guy like you, who's gotten a bunch of awards, sold a bunch of books, got some TV series and a movie like you would be okay. Yeah, things are going pretty well.

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, you know, climate change, reactionary Supreme Court, repealment of reproductive freedom, constant assault on the advances we've made in terms of civil rights over the last 60 years. It's kind of a downer. Kind of half empty.

[Craig Melvin]

But you've at least explained your position because your approach isn't one of a. It's not a personal approach. It's. It's more of a societal perspective. You don't write a lot about that sort of stuff, though. The things you just ticked off A lot of those things don't appear in.

[Colson Whitehead]

No, I mean, I don't. My first couple books were very contemporary, and I felt that I had sort of said my piece about how we live now. When you write a historical novel, you end up writing about where we are today. And so writing about white supremacy and underground railroad time of slavery, and then we elect a white supremacist president. Obviously, some things are eternal. Slave economy was the maturity of capitalism, and of course, now we live in a hyper capitalist state. If you write about the system as it was 150 years ago, you end up writing about how things are going now and then in terms of just now and then. I think human nature is pretty static. People back then are the same as they are now. They have the same hopes and dreams. And so whether you're writing something set now or something 100 years ago, you end up talking about a lot of stuff that's universal.

[Craig Melvin]

So here we are. I mean, this beautiful museum, 125th street in Harlem. This is where the trilogy takes place. What is it about your connection with this particular part of New York City?

[Colson Whitehead]

I love every neighborhood in the city. Maybe not Staten island, but I've lived all over Manhattan, Brooklyn. The trilogy is set in Harlem, but I'm not, you know, a Harlem maniac. To me, it's just like another beautiful part of a city I live in.

[Craig Melvin]

But why is it set in Harlem then?

[Colson Whitehead]

I want to do a heist novel. I love Ocean's Eleven. I was like, I was really jealous. It must have been so much fun to come up with those capers and heists and the characters. So I didn't want it to be set, like, 100 years ago. It seemed like a lot of research, and I was kind of tired. Yeah, but, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s, I could do. And if you're gonna do a black crime novel in New York City, it's either Harlem or Brooklyn. And, you know, Harlem is just sitting there.

[Craig Melvin]

How much shoe leather research did you do for this one? I mean, were you walking around the streets of Harlem talking to folks or.

[Colson Whitehead]

When I was little, I lived in Harlem till I was about 6 years old. So that was a long time ago. So I did have to walk around, and so I did a lot of location scouting, just zigzagging up and down different streets. Is this where Ray Carney has his office? Is this. Is this where he grew up? Is this a good place to dump a body? I did a lot of body dumping.

[Craig Melvin]

Thinking as you walked around home.

[Colson Whitehead]

Just for research. Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

You're like, oh, this would be a great place to dump a body. This might be a great place to kill someone.

[Colson Whitehead]

You gotta be prepared and think ahead.

[Craig Melvin]

The latest work of fiction, it's dedicated

[Colson Whitehead]

to New York freaking City.

[Craig Melvin]

Why was it dedicated to New York freaking City?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, the thing critics say about certain books, that the city's almost a character. Like Dublin and James Joyce's Ulysses, almost a character. And I've always, I first thought that really kind of corny. But halfway through the first book, I was like, damn, the city is almost a character. So I'm following the main character, Ray Carney, for 30 years, but also the ups and downs of the city. So I leaned into it.

[Craig Melvin]

It is very much a character, but for me at least, like it was a character in the first one. Was that never the intention?

[Colson Whitehead]

Oh, just. I mean, I grew into it, you know, definitely sort of thinking about the changes in the characters lives over 30 years. And then of course, New York has had many different phases. From the 60s, you know, under JFK, there's a spirit of optimism in the country. New Camelot. And then in the 70s, New York is broke, the fiscal apparatus is breaking down, Crime is at an all time high. And then in the 80s, you know, development's coming back, Wall street is roaring. But at the end of the decade, it's the start of the AIDS crisis, the crack epidemic. So there are all these ups and downs and finding a place for my characters and that, you know, crazy mosaic was really important.

[Craig Melvin]

One of the things I've always enjoyed about your writing is you managed to tackle subjects regardless of genre, without beating the reader over the head with it, whether it's class, race. In this particular book, you write about the people who live literally underneath the city, who live in the subway system as these skyscrapers are being built above in this new New York city of the 80s. Why are those themes so important to you?

[Colson Whitehead]

They're interesting. You know, I don't think a writer has a mission to talk about politics. I think the only mission of an artist is not to make crappy art.

[Craig Melvin]

I mean, do you go out of your way to not write about politics?

[Colson Whitehead]

No. I mean, I like writing about race and history and the city. I don't think an artist has to write about anything. Some people think you have to be political to make art. I think the only mission of an artist is, is not to make crappy art. That seems like job one. But in terms of my work, if I can have a compelling story, great characters, and also talk about these larger Social structures. I'm really happy and challenged.

[Craig Melvin]

Let's talk about Ray Carney for a second, the main character in this trilogy. I've always wondered how much of Coulson is in Ray Carney and vice versa. How much of Ray Carney is in Coulson or. Or is there any.

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah, I mean, sometimes I'm in my characters and sometimes not. The Underground Railroad, the main character has nothing of me in her, which is probably why it's my best selling book, I think. But in terms of Ray, you know, there's definitely things about loving the city. You know, we overlap in that way. I used to think when I was younger that if I found a great apartment, you know, with corner exposure, you know, great light, I would have fixed myself. But then you move and it's like, eh, I'm the same dumb person. And Ray Carney definitely thinks that he grew up really poor, and if he can get a nice place for his family and then like a townhouse, he'll have achieved something. But he's still Ray Carney. A divided soul, constantly striving. Constantly striving in terms of, I guess, you know, he sells furniture. And I think that from growing up watching Twilight Zone and stuff like Brady Bunch, my platonic furniture is like mid century modern. I didn't know how much I liked it until I started writing this book and getting some catalogs. So we both share a love for mid century modern furniture, huh?

[Craig Melvin]

I did not know that. So that. So that part of Rick Carney is actually Colson Whitehead.

[Colson Whitehead]

Yes. I try to commit fewer crimes than him, but, you know, we overlap in some ways.

[Craig Melvin]

It's interesting to me because Ray, to your point, Ray Carney's one of these guys that he's striving. He's striving, and he finally sort of makes it by maybe the standards of that day, to a certain extent. But he can't break up with his former life. Like, he can't leave the dark side behind.

[Commercial Announcer]

Why?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, I mean, that's part of the crime stories. You know, Whenever I try to get out, they pull me back in. In the case of the second book in the series, Crook Manifesto, he gets out, but then he's pulled back in because he wants to get Jackson five tickets for his daughter. So hopefully I'm playing with the structure, but. Well, I think all of us have these unresolved parts, and we're embracing or rejecting parts of ourselves that we love or don't like as much. And as I follow him over 30 years, I get to explore that in greater depth, you know, in his 50s, he's settled, his business is doing fine, his kids have grown up. And then the question is, what's next? He's successful. Where do I go next?

[Craig Melvin]

Is that the question for all of us?

[Colson Whitehead]

The question for me. I'm not sure where you are, Craig, these days.

[Craig Melvin]

No, I'm right there with you. Like, what's next?

[Colson Whitehead]

So, you know, the stakes for him when he's in his 20s are different from when he's in his 50s. And exploring that has been a great, you know, just a lovely task.

[Craig Melvin]

Is that why you think this character has been so relatable for so many over the course of the series? Because there is some of that in all of us?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, whether you're very much like the character superficially or not, hopefully I'm doing my job and that you can see yourselves in them. So a lot of us aren't criminals. Some of us are. I don't want to speak for the audience, but say some of us are. Some of us are, as in you.

[Craig Melvin]

Statistically, I was like, oh, I mean, if you want to confess here, we can turn it into Dateline.

[Colson Whitehead]

But he's, you know, I think all of us are on our different journeys. And so if I'm doing my job correctly, whether I'm writing about zombie hunters, that's in my apocalyptic book, or an escaped enslaved person or a furniture store owner, you can see yourselves in them.

[Craig Melvin]

You also, in this particular book, you introduce a concept. It's called the Churn. And again, full disclosure, I haven't finished it yet, but I did find the concept very interesting. Explain what the Churn is. For folks who haven't read it yet,

[Colson Whitehead]

it evolves over time. And in the first book, it's just a literal circulation of bribes between people and also stolen items. And so people are robbed. Fences like Ray Carney, someone who deals on stolen merchandise, brings it back into circulation. Things are moving, money's moving. And then I pull back in the next book to think about Churn in terms of the city. You know, two blocks from here, there are townhouses and brownstones that have been there for 150 years. And there's been a churn of generations of German immigrants, Jewish, Irish, and then black folks from the south coming through. The facades are the same, but inside there's been this great churn of people. And striving people come here. They live a few blocks away. They move to middle class, move to Long Island. And over a course of 150 years, the grandchildren of Those first people who came are now moving to a gentrified Harlem. So I find that just lovely and engaging. The city is always just moving and then there's this personal churn. And if you follow someone for 30 years like Ray Carney, or in our own lives, there's so many different people we've been, people we're inhabiting. And so that is another kind of churn.

[Craig Melvin]

I've always heard that writers, the successful ones, oftentimes write what they know, what they've experienced. Ray Carney's not cool. Smitehead. I mean, you grow up here, Upper west side, you go to a nice private school, then you go to Harvard. Like, how do you reconcile the two?

[Colson Whitehead]

You do research and then you use your imagination and empathy to make things real. So, yeah, I'm not a zombie hunter. I wrote a book about zombie hunters. I'm not an elevator inspector. I wrote a book about that. It's your job to get it right, to write about people who are not like you. And especially in a well populated book like Cool Machine and the whole series, there are a lot of people in there and I gotta put myself in other people's shoes.

[Craig Melvin]

Empathy. Yeah, in the literal sense. What is it about this particular city, the layers of it that you find so compelling?

[Colson Whitehead]

I keep returning to it. It's my constant subject. My first book, the Intuitionist, is a sort of impressionistic New York and it's very allegorical. My zombie novel is a utopian New York. Everyone's dead, so there's no competition for taxis or supermarkets. And this one, I wanted to get it right and I think there's so much going on, there's so much great history. If you're writing about New York, it's not just New York, it's any big city, but also any hometown. And if I can channel the way we feel, all of us about the places we love. Even if you've never been to New York, I feel I've really done my

[Craig Melvin]

job in terms of this particular series that's coming to an end. I mean, Underground Railroad, Nickel Boys, both turned into big screen and small screen projects. Do we expect that's going to be the case with this? Do we want that to be the case?

[Colson Whitehead]

It's been optioned by Apple and they're doing a pilot, so we'll see. I'm not working on it. I'm really terrible at screenplays. Whenever I write a screenplay, people are like, oh, you're such a good novelist, why would you. They act like I put on some French Hip hop, you know, when French hip hop comes on, you're like, yes. What? I don't. Why?

[Craig Melvin]

What is this?

[Colson Whitehead]

Why would you do this?

[Craig Melvin]

Right.

[Colson Whitehead]

So you can't do everything.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah.

[Colson Whitehead]

So if someone else wants to take the reins and make it into a TV show, that'd be great.

[Craig Melvin]

Who would play Ray? If you had your druthers, who would play Ray?

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah, I never think about that. It's a totally different thing.

[Craig Melvin]

What do you mean you never think about it? Like, you've spent years with Ray Carney creating him. You've never thought, like, in real life, who would actually be good at portraying him?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, it's like I get a lot of things right, a lot of details, but I never see faces, I see their essence, and I never think about what they look like. And so when Barry Jenkins, you know, incredible director, adapted the Underground Railroad, it was just really marvelous to see all the people he cast. I mean, I had an idea of what they looked like vaguely. And then each time someone came out on screen, I was like, that's exactly it. So I'm busy thinking about the characters and what they're doing and not what they look like. Really?

[Craig Melvin]

And that's always been the case.

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah. That seems interesting. No, like to not consider what they would physically look like on screen.

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, you know, TV and film was really separate. When they were adapting Underground and I was very excited and nickel boys, I was just working with Ray Carney and onto the next thing.

[Craig Melvin]

You mentioned that Ocean's Eleven was part of the inspiration behind this series. Are you watching anything right now that's inspiring you?

[Colson Whitehead]

No, not the moment. What do you watch this spring? I really enjoy Widow's Bay. It takes place in this sort of Stephen King, John Carpenter world. And the acting is incredible. As a kid, we were like a horror family. We always watched horror and science fiction movies. And Thanksgiving, we'd have turkey and then we put on like blood sucking freaks together. So Widow's Bay is for the Whitehead family. We love horror.

[Craig Melvin]

This explains a lot.

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah, no, it's all in there.

[Craig Melvin]

This is why you can't be confined to one genre. I mean, you really have written in so many different genres. Is that by design or is that.

[Colson Whitehead]

I just fell into it. I think growing up, I loved, like, Stanley Kubrick and he would do his war movie, his sci fi movie, his horror picture. And it seemed like if you do something once, why do it again? So keep stretching yourself. What do I like about this genre that I can take for myself? Change alter. If you do the Same thing over and over again. You're probably not challenging yourself, so switching genres is a way of keeping it fresh.

[Craig Melvin]

More with Colson Whitehead after the break.

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[Craig Melvin]

Years ago, I read something that you wrote after the election of America's first black president. It was tongue in cheek. It was a piece of satire, but after that, some folks dubbed you like the writer for a post racial America. And you sort of mocked that.

[Colson Whitehead]

Oh, how's this post racial thing turning out? It's going swell. In zone one, my zombie book, the joke is that, you know, everyone is dead. 99% of the population has been in apocalypse. Only then will we actually be post racial because everyone's dead. I think we have some problems. They're not going away. In fact, they're getting worse. And so maybe we should hold off on the post racial talk.

[Craig Melvin]

Do you feel an obligation as a writer, a writer of your stature? Certainly. Do you feel an obligation to write about issues?

[Colson Whitehead]

I have an obligation not to hand in crappy work, to do the best I can with each book. So I do like to write about politics and culture. But if I wanted to write love poetry, I should do that. If I wanted to write biographies of Benjamin Franklin, I should do that. Life is pretty short, so you shouldn't worry about other people's ideas of what you should be writing. You should write what you want to write.

[Craig Melvin]

What do you want to write that you haven't written so far?

[Colson Whitehead]

Oh, I haven't done like a straight sci fi book. So maybe something science fictiony.

[Craig Melvin]

Okay.

[Colson Whitehead]

I am thinking about a romance at the moment. A love story. It's set on the eve of the Russian Revolution. So for research, I'm just binging a lot of golden Girls, just taking notes on Blanche.

[Craig Melvin]

Are you being serious?

[Colson Whitehead]

No, but it is.

[Craig Melvin]

I didn't know I mean, because here's the thing. You're Colson Whitehead. You could probably do it.

[Colson Whitehead]

It's the least coulson thing I could. I could think of.

[Craig Melvin]

Okay, so no romance. No, I mean, you were really selling it there for a second. You could write romance.

[Colson Whitehead]

Maybe I'll put my mind to it. Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

But seriously, though, what haven't you in terms of genres? Musical.

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah, that hasn't occurred to me.

[Craig Melvin]

Okay.

[Colson Whitehead]

I think, you know, I have a few things planned. They're not necessarily repeating what I've done before. And, yeah, if I can keep it fresh for me, I think it's fresh for the reader as well.

[Craig Melvin]

What's your process when you actually sit down and put pen to paper? Are you one of these guys that writes every day?

[Colson Whitehead]

People say, write every day. That seems like a real imposition on my lifestyle, frankly. If I can do, like, six pages a week, Monday, Tuesday, Saturday, and Sunday, that's an accumulation. You know, after a month, you have, like, 20 something. And after 10 months, you got, you know, 240.

[Craig Melvin]

So you don't write every day?

[Colson Whitehead]

No, no, no. I mean, sometimes I'm not feeling it. Sometimes it's like Thanksgiving, and you have to be present for your family or whatever. So that's a lost week. But you can make it up the next week.

[Craig Melvin]

What was present for your family in Air Force?

[Colson Whitehead]

People like you to do stuff. People like you to show up.

[Craig Melvin]

You don't strike me as the kind of guy that necessarily always likes to show up when people ask maybe, no.

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, I'm lucky that I can work from home. You know, I can work from home. I can write a page, take a nap, do some spontaneous weeping, get back to work.

[Craig Melvin]

That's quite the process.

[Colson Whitehead]

It works for me.

[Craig Melvin]

What do you do when you're not writing now? I'm very fascinated. Like, what are your hobbies?

[Colson Whitehead]

When I'm down, when I'm not working, I'm really not working at all. So I cook a lot. You know, I have a smoker, so a big slab of ribs, a brisket. That's always fun. In the summer, I'll goof off and play video games, stare off into space, think about my regrets. And then when I'm ready to work, I'll go back to work.

[Craig Melvin]

And you use all of those things to inspire the work?

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah, and really clear my head before I, you know, head into the next thing.

[Craig Melvin]

You wrote something recently that caught my attention about artificial intelligence. How would you characterize our relationship right now with AI?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, I think if you overuse These tools too much. They say that your cognitive faculties are going down, but if you look at the world today, no one's really making much of a contribution. So no big loss for me. As an artist, I'm not supposed to use AI. I did sort of cheat with Cool Machine. I was stuck after the first two books, so I put in a prompt to ChatGPT. I'm not proud of it. A prompt about city corruption and city hall, our justice system. And what it gave me was not. Well, I'll just read it to you. It was not really helpful. Okay, read it to me. So I put a lot of stuff in, and this is what it came out with. In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups, the police. Police who investigate crime and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders.

[Craig Melvin]

These are their stories.

[Colson Whitehead]

Chung Chun, the Chung Chung was sort of a giveaway that maybe had plagiarized something.

[Craig Melvin]

So that did not come from AI

[Colson Whitehead]

the technology is not there, is what I'm saying.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah. Do you think it gets there? As an artist? Is that something that worries you?

[Colson Whitehead]

As an artist, you're supposed to do the work. And if you're using AI for your writing, for your poem, for your painting, you're not doing the work. A certain amount of suffering is supposed to be baked in there. And whenever you say that the technology is not there, people are like, oh, but 10 years from now, and I'm like, I'm going to be 65. I'm going to be retiring. I'm out of here.

[Craig Melvin]

So not retiring.

[Colson Whitehead]

I don't know. It's kind of a. You're going to. You're going to retire one day.

[Craig Melvin]

But writers don't retire. You don't stop writing. You don't stop creating and sharing ideas, do you?

[Colson Whitehead]

It's good to know when you run out. And if I run out, definitely I'll retire.

[Craig Melvin]

You're not running out.

[Colson Whitehead]

All right. Well, that's very. That's very kind of you to say, Craig.

[Craig Melvin]

More with Colson Whitehead when we come back.

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[Colson Whitehead]

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[Craig Melvin]

Your son, we were just talking about our 12 year old sons. Do you have conversations with him about some of the themes that you write about?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, I remember when he was 7, we successfully explained the Holocaust, successfully explained slavery, the Civil War, but we couldn't explain why Jar Jar Binks was racist. Like so there's some things I had the language for and then some things you just have to experience.

[Craig Melvin]

But he was learning these things at seven.

[Colson Whitehead]

Oh yeah, you gotta. Yeah, you gotta, you know.

[Craig Melvin]

Cause he's Colson Whitehead's side.

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

He's also like my son, he's biracial. Do you have conversations with him about that part of his existence?

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah, I mean everything. He's also Jewish, you know, so all different parts of his history, you know, we try to explain where he's coming from and where the world is now and where hopefully it'll be in the future.

[Craig Melvin]

Is he curious like that?

[Colson Whitehead]

He doesn't like fiction. He's like more of like a nonfiction guy. So for Christmas last year he was like, can I get that new Churchill biography? You know, so meanwhile my son wanted

[Craig Melvin]

like Madden, like the newest Madden.

[Colson Whitehead]

So he's a big reader, but not a fiction. Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

You know, I've always found you fascinating and as I'm sitting here with you now, I realize why. I mean, you seem to be sort of this collection of so many different things. Growing up, did you find that to be a challenge? Did you, did you struggle at all with identity?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, I mean, I knew from an early age I wanted to write. You know, I loved horror stories. My family Loved horror stories. I loved comic books, Marvel comics, and I adored Stephen King. And until I got to college, I wanted to write like the Black Shining or the Black Salem's Lot. Any Stephen King title. You put the black in front of it. That's what I wanted to do. Yeah. I mean, I liked reading all these different kinds of stories and wanted to write them. And the great thing about my job is that I can write these different modes as time goes on and explore these different kinds of stories that I'm interested in.

[Craig Melvin]

You're a great writer who just happens to be black. You don't seem to necessarily be one of those writers who's described as a great black writer. Have you ever noticed? Have you paid attention to that?

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah, I think people used to ask, are you a black writer or writer who happens to be black? And the answer to that is, is that a dumb question or a question that happens to be dumb? I contain multitudes. We all do. I'm a black writer. I'm a writer of crime novels. I'm a writer of historical fiction. I'm a writer who doesn't take out the trash. So keep your labels on this year of doing my work.

[Craig Melvin]

What do you see as the role of writers in modern society?

[Colson Whitehead]

Do the work that you find compelling. Do the work that gives you reason to get up in the morning. I think, like in Europe, there's a big tradition of writers commenting and doing writing op EDS and editorials about the issues of the day. I have a lot of friends who are great writers who have dumb opinions. I don't want to read everyone's op ed on this or that. If you're good at writing an essay, write an essay. If you're good at writing a novel, write a novel. It really comes down to, I think, doing the work that makes you feel alive, gives your life purpose. And if there's a greater societal idea of what a writer should be doing that's very external.

[Craig Melvin]

You seem to be one of those folks perhaps that takes the work seriously, but you don't seem to maybe take yourself all that seriously.

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, if you saw my office, you definitely would not think, you know a writer at work. So I have a good. I have good work habits. I love my work. But at the end of the day, I just like hanging out with my family and cooking for everybody. And the work is only one part of my life.

[Craig Melvin]

Has that always been the case, or is this a balance that you were able to achieve later in life after some sort of epiphany?

[Colson Whitehead]

When you write Your first book, you're not sure if you're gonna be able to finish it, and then you do it once, like, ah, I could do it again. I've written books when I've been happy, when I've been sav. When I have money in the bank, when I've been broke. The work will always be there for you. So you should, you know, keep a sense of proportion and try to be present again. In air quotes.

[Craig Melvin]

In air quotes. But for a guy who's won not one, but two Pulitzers, is there an added sense of pressure when you put pen to paper? Do you feel like, okay, people are going to expect this to be great. I gotta deliver. I gotta deliver.

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, if I thought that, would I do a crime novel after the Nickel Boys? Other people's expectations are other people's expectations. And so if it comes to pressure, I put more pressure on myself than anybody else could, you know. Is this sentence work? Does this sentence work? Is the story any good? Is this interesting? I'm thinking about that all day. Not so much about what the reception of the last book was. I'm really happy that people liked Underground and Nickel Boys.

[Craig Melvin]

And they didn't just like it, they loved it.

[Colson Whitehead]

I'm glad they. People liked them a lot. But the next day you're just back at your desk and it's just you. So it's you against your ambitions, you against what you want for the book, your own limitations as a person and an artist. So all that stuff is outside. And then when you get down to work, it's just you and the page. And whether things are going great or poorly doesn't really matter.

[Craig Melvin]

You don't really care that much what people think about.

[Colson Whitehead]

I mean, I like. It's better when people like your books, definitely.

[Craig Melvin]

But it doesn't sound like it's motivating you. It doesn't sound like.

[Colson Whitehead]

No. Getting it right is the motivation.

[Craig Melvin]

And that's always been the case.

[Colson Whitehead]

Pretty much, yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

Well, it's working well for you many years from now. What do you hope that people remember Colson Whitehead for?

[Colson Whitehead]

You know, here with that one book, I really liked it. I care for the other ones, but if people like one of my books, I'm really happy. You know, I think that's a lot to reach someone in that way. A novel, a movie, a poem, a painting. So after the apocalypse, when people are digging themselves out of the rubble, and I'm not sure what language they'll be reading, but perhaps they'll figure out how to decipher or Translate English. And they'll pick up the Intuitionist or Cool Machine, and think, ah,

[Craig Melvin]

they really

[Colson Whitehead]

produced some great art. Unfortunately, they destroyed themselves.

[Craig Melvin]

Is there one book in particular that you are proudest of that you look back on? You're like, oh, this is.

[Colson Whitehead]

It's always the last one. Okay, so Cool Machine, it's closest to who I am. I really think I did what I set out to do, so I'm pretty proud of it.

[Craig Melvin]

It's closest to who you are.

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah. Cause it was written, you know, last year. Oh. Sometimes if I go back to my first book, the Intuitionist, I'm like, who was this guy? You know, I was in a very different personal space back then. So the closer it is to me now, the more I relate to it and remember its composition, what I was trying to do.

[Craig Melvin]

What's one moment you're still chasing?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, I got my driver's license three years ago.

[Craig Melvin]

That's not true.

[Colson Whitehead]

Yeah, I grew up in Manhattan. I didn't get my driver's license until three years ago.

[Craig Melvin]

Well, I mean, if you're in your early 50s, why bother at that point? What was the impetus?

[Colson Whitehead]

Well, my wife would do all the shopping and then take our kid to camp. Got kind of surly when it came time to pick him up from camp. I got the hint after a couple years that maybe I should just contribute like a man and a person in this household.

[Craig Melvin]

So you took driving lessons?

[Colson Whitehead]

Yes, and I took it. Upper west side. A lot of bad drivers in Manhattan, apparently. Double parked, triple parked. Kids at the colleges, like not looking. Yeah, it was me and like just a bunch of 16 year old girls. So for the plate, you know the. They show you videos. Like a five hour class where they show videos like, don't drive drunk. This is how you parallel park. And it was just me and 16 year old girls. And then he would show YouTube. The instructor would show YouTube videos of like, don't drive drunk. But the ads were all keyed to his YouTube account. So it was like erectile dysfunction. Like just over like five hours of like. Just pay for a premium account, man. Just pay for the premium. I want to be in your business.

[Craig Melvin]

That wasn't my question was, what's the moment you're still chasing?

[Colson Whitehead]

Now that I've got my driver's license, what mountains do I have left?

[Craig Melvin]

Well, what about a Broadway show? You could write a play.

[Colson Whitehead]

No, I mean, my next book is enough of a stretch and a challenge. So tell me more.

[Craig Melvin]

No, it's a work of. How would you.

[Colson Whitehead]

It's a novel and you know, takes place in the 19 teens and it's not something I've done before. So the challenge of what am I doing? You know, why did I take this on? Is exciting. Characters are coming together and, you know,

[Craig Melvin]

anything you want to add that? I didn't ask you anything.

[Colson Whitehead]

You stay in school, stay off drugs, you know, be present, be present.

[Craig Melvin]

I love that you don't take yourself as seriously as I would have guessed. Yeah, there you have it. Two time Pulitzer Prize winner, Colson Whitehead. It would have been nice if we could have gotten a little bit more information on his next project, but whatever it is, I'm sure it's fantastic. I hope you enjoyed this special edition of Glass Half Full. We will see you back here next week. Until then though, the bosses at 30 Rock really encourage me to encourage you to like, subscribe, download, share and comment. Until next time, my glass, it's always half full. This episode of Glass Half Full is produced by Tyree Nobles, Jared Crawford and Phoebe Wiener. Video production is by Ned Friedrich, Kyle Eppler audio production is by Mark Hoppe. Our editor is Alex Viola and sound design and mix is by Joe Plourd. Ashley Domagola is our production manager. Sadie Bass is our supervising producer. Our head of audio production is Jessica Finton. Ariana Davis Santana is our executive editor. I'm Craig Melvin and this has been Glass Half Full, a production of the Today show. We'll see you next week.

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[Colson Whitehead]

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[Craig Melvin]

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[Colson Whitehead]

Police are on the way.

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[Colson Whitehead]

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[Craig Melvin]

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[Colson Whitehead]

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[Commercial Announcer]

you did the best interview that I've done.

[Craig Melvin]

Seriously. Oh, that's a great question.

[Colson Whitehead]

I think I'm going to think about

[Craig Melvin]

that question for the rest of my life.

[Commercial Announcer]

Good question. This is Tanya Moseley, co host of Fresh Air, and the questions are only the half of it. Listen to Fresh Air on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.