Shonda Rhimes on the Side of Success People Don’t See

Summary

Glass Half Full with Craig Melvin

Episode: Shonda Rhimes on the Side of Success People Don’t See

Release Date: March 10, 2026
Host: Craig Melvin
Guest: Shonda Rhimes

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Episode Overview

In this intimate, candid conversation, Craig Melvin sits down with prolific showrunner, writer, and producer Shonda Rhimes (creator of Grey’s Anatomy, Scandal, Bridgerton, and more). Together, they delve into the transformative power of saying “yes,” the hidden costs of success, the enduring influence of family, and Shonda’s journey from “painfully shy” bookworm to one of the most powerful figures in television. With warmth and humor, the episode uncovers Rhimes’ vulnerabilities, her process, her joys and regrets, and what still excites her about life and work.

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Conversation Highlights & Key Insights

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1. The Power of Saying “Yes”

Timestamps: 03:04–13:01

• Defining Moment:
  Shonda reveals her life changed when she intentionally began saying “yes” to everything that scared her.

  “I feel like the defining moment in my life was the moment when I decided to say yes to everything that scared me. Because I feel like there’s a before and an after there.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 03:04

• The Year of Yes:
  Prompted by her sister’s observation that she never accepted the extraordinary invitations she received, Shonda committed to a year of embracing the unfamiliar and uncomfortable.

  “If it felt unfamiliar to me, if it felt like a big social commitment, if it felt like me talking in public, if it felt like anything out of my comfort zone, I said no. And I decided that I was going to spend a year saying yes to everything that scared me.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 08:33

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2. On Optimism, Motherhood, & Self-Discovery

Timestamps: 03:27–05:16

• Shift in Mindset Through Motherhood:
  Shonda shares that motherhood helped her become more optimistic, shifting the focus from herself to the future of her children.

  “It’s really easy to be pessimistic about the world when it’s just you, but when you’re looking towards a future for somebody else, you really can’t hang on to that. That’s a dark way to be.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 03:43

• Motherhood as a Reality Check:
  “Becoming a mother makes it possible for you to stop thinking about yourself as the most important person in the world, which is really helpful.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 04:08

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3. Growing Up: Family, Books, and Shyness

Timestamps: 05:16–07:32 | 13:01–14:26

• Bookish, Sheltered Childhood:
  Shonda reflects on her status as the youngest of six, nurtured in a reading family, and being “painfully shy.”

  “I was very uncomfortable in my own skin. I would rather be at home with a book in my pajamas than almost anything else.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 05:29

  “My mother and father made a rule for me that they would never tell me I couldn’t read something... It was the best thing ever because I felt like I was being like this maverick in terms of reading these books.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 06:48

• Pragmatic Parenting:
  Remains the “youngest in the family” in her parents’ eyes despite her success.

  “You’re still the youngest kid in the family…they’re proud, but they’re not interested in suggesting that they’re any less proud of their other kids.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 13:26

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4. Navigating Fame & Success

Timestamps: 07:39–13:01

• Fame as a Shock:
  Shonda highlights her discomfort with public attention, especially as a writer—an inherently “interior” profession.

  “For a really shy, really introverted person, it felt like torture for a while. It really did. And I had to figure out how to get over that.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 09:18

• On Public Recognition:

  “How many writers do you know…by name or by face? Like, people know who I am, and I’m a writer, which is not supposed to be in my mind, not supposed to be how it worked.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 09:18

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5. Becoming a Single Mother by Choice

Timestamps: 16:39–19:09

• The 9/11 Turning Point:
  Shonda decided to pursue adoption after being alone during 9/11, realizing life is too uncertain to delay dreams.

  “I remember thinking, like, there are all these things I always wanted to do with my life. Maybe I’m never going to get to do them. And number one on that list was adopt a baby, become a mom.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 17:36

• No Dream of the Traditional Family:

  “Little girls dream of their weddings. I would play mom, but I would never play wedding... I wasn’t that kid.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 16:58

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6. Crafting Characters & Navigating Dating

Timestamps: 19:09–22:51

• On Writing Men:
  “They’re all me in some capacity... I don’t know where a character comes from. They just… I don’t like to say it’s magical. They appear, but they appear.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 19:43

• Modern Dating Challenges:
  Shonda finds it difficult to meet people without preconceived notions about her due to her fame.

  “It’s hard to meet people on a level where the question, ‘What do you do?’ comes to me and they actually mean it... That’s talking about work versus talking about life.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 20:23

• Her ‘Type’:

  “The most attractive thing about somebody is them being intelligent, like, really smart, and having an opinion about the world.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 21:31

• On Being Perceived as Intimidating:

  “If you’re shy and you’re well known, that mix makes you seem like you might not be a nice person, or you might be aloof, or you might be cold.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 22:59

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7. Pride in her Work & Creative Freedom

Timestamps: 23:28–26:43

• Favorite Own Shows:
  Shonda’s proudest achievement is writing Queen Charlotte (the Bridgerton prequel), with Scandal as her longtime favorite.

  “After I wrote Queen Charlotte…if I never write another thing again, I’m fine. Like, I loved writing it. I loved the way it came out.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 23:49

• The Move to Netflix:
  On why she left ABC for Netflix—she wanted creative freedom, new challenges, and the right to be left alone while making TV.

  “When Ted [Sarandos] asked me what I wanted, I said, I just want to be able to make television and everybody leave me alone. And he was like, great, fine, do it.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 25:01

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8. Future Projects and Storytelling Philosophy

Timestamps: 27:55–31:15

• Expanding the Bridgerton Universe & Sci-Fi Ambitions:
  New Bridgerton spin-offs are likely (possibly about Lady Violet), but Shonda’s excited to branch out—particularly into sci-fi and female-led action series.

  “I still talk about sci-fi constantly. That is a genre I’m still really interested in and have been fiddling around in. I want kind of an action series. I think that’d be kind of a female action series.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 29:12

• Fan Attachment and “Killing” Characters:
  Shonda is clear-eyed about not pandering to fans’ wishes over story needs.

  “My job is to be the keeper of the story. My job is not to be the keeper of the fans... What the fans want to see is Meredith and Derek holding hands on a beach for the rest of time. That’d be a very boring show.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 30:27

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9. Writing Process & “Procrastination”

Timestamps: 32:02–33:13

• Percolation over Procrastination:
  Shonda spends months thinking before writing, often drafting entire pilots in just a few days.

  “A lot of what people call procrastinating, I like to say, is just me not ready to write yet. I’m still percolating.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 32:18

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10. Remaining Grounded: Family, Fame, and Social Media

Timestamps: 33:19–34:23

• Her Kids’ Perspective:
  Her three daughters find her and her work embarrassing (“My 11-year-old has a pact with all her friends that they will never, ever watch Grey’s Anatomy because how embarrassing is it that her mother wrote it.” – 33:33). She jokes about reminding them to “watch more regular TV” because YouTube ruins her profession.
• Social Media:
  Shonda is on TikTok, though her kids are “slightly embarrassed that I’m on there, but I have fun.” (33:23)

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11. Looking Back, Living Now, and the Road Ahead

Timestamps: 35:05–37:47

• Biggest Regret:
  Not enjoying her success as it happened, always striving for more instead of “sitting in the moment.”

  “If I knew then what I know now, I would have enjoyed everything so much more... The first time I realized that I had made it was...listening to Oprah Winfrey induct me into the Television Academy Hall of Fame. That was the first time it occurred to me that I could relax. And that’s way too late in the game for that to happen.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 35:24

• The Legacy of “Yes”:
  Ten years after publishing Year of Yes, she notes how fundamentally the practice changed her but acknowledges she’s comfortable saying “no” now, too.

  “Now I feel like I say yes to enough things that I feel comfortable saying no...I say yes to the things that excite me.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 37:09

• Dream for the Future:

  “I’d love to write a play. I’d love to have a play on Broadway.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 37:40

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Family’s Role:
  “My mom was like an invisible advance man for my entire life...anybody who suggested that this little Black girl couldn’t do what she wanted to do, that person was out of the way before I even knew they existed.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 14:26

• On First Realizing Success:
  “Listening to Oprah Winfrey induct me into the Television Academy Hall of Fame. That was the first time it occurred to me that I could relax.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 35:24

• On Characters and Self:
  “They’re all me in some capacity.”
  – Shonda Rhimes, 19:43

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Segments & Timestamps

• 03:04 – Shonda’s philosophy of saying yes
• 05:16 – Painful shyness and bookish childhood
• 07:39 – The origin of the “Year of Yes”
• 09:18 – The psychological cost of success and exposure
• 16:43 – Choosing single motherhood and her 9/11 story
• 19:43 – Character writing and self-insertion
• 23:49 – On the works she’s proudest of
• 25:01 – Leaving ABC for Netflix and creative freedom
• 29:12 – Interest in science fiction and action
• 30:27 – The storyteller’s responsibility vs. fan service
• 32:18 – Her unconventional writing process
• 33:23 – Social media and parenting
• 35:24 – Biggest regret: not savoring the journey
• 37:40 – Dreaming of a Broadway play

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Tone & Language

The conversation is friendly, funny, self-aware, and honest—Craig Melvin brings out Shonda Rhimes’ humor, humility, and candor, resulting in a conversation full of warmth and practical wisdom, with plenty of laughter and self-deprecating asides.

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In Summary

This episode provides a rare look at the vulnerabilities and inner evolution behind Shonda Rhimes’ outward success—making it a must-listen for fans, creators, and anyone feeling stuck on their own journey. Rhimes’ willingness to reflect on fear, family, ambition, and joy reveals how the real “win” might just be the courage to enjoy the ride and stay open to what scares you next.

Transcript

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[Craig Melvin]

So, I mean, is there. And we're gonna move on after this? Cause I don't wanna spend the entire hour talking about Shonda rounds, finding a man. But is there, is there a type

[Shonda Rhimes]

of guy, like, if you know anybody, please, you and your wife can set me up next time you've seen.

[Craig Melvin]

We may take you up on that. Hello there, everyone. Craig Melvin here. I bring you greetings from my basement and also my bourbon bar. We do our podcast here because it's called Glass Half Full, which is generally how I view life. And so does my next guest. Shonda Rhimes is in a class all by herself. Everything from Scandal to Grey's Anatomy to Bridgerton. But there's a lot you probably don't know about Shonda Rhimes. She was, and to a certain extent still is, painfully shy. She wasn't comfortable in her own skin for a long time. She's a single mother of three who's actually still looking for Mr. Right. I'm really excited about this conversation for a number of reasons. I mean, first of all, you know, Shonda has changed the way that millions of people see themselves because of her characters, because of her stories. But Shonda's also. She's also changed the way that she sees herself. And I think you're going to discover a lot more about Shonda Rhimes over the next few minutes. At least I know I did. I hope you enjoy this conversation. So, Shonda Rhimes, welcome, welcome. Thank you again for joining me. You know, we like to start all of these episodes with a toast. I always start with the same thing. It's always a little bourbon. What do you have?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I have a very, very pretty, overly enhanced drink that I Made.

[Craig Melvin]

That's cute. That's very cute.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I like to do the assignment correctly, so it came with a big drink.

[Craig Melvin]

So first of all, I mean, you've had such an extraordinary career, such an extraordinary life so far. What are we toast? What is Shonda Rhimes toasting right now?

[Shonda Rhimes]

You know, I feel like the defining moment in my life was the moment when I decided to say yes to everything that scared me. Because I feel like there's a before and an after there. So that is what we're toasting.

[Craig Melvin]

Cheers to that. Cheers to Shonda saying yes. Would you say, generally speaking, you are a half class full kind of lady or are you a half class empty kind of lady?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I think I'm a glass half full kind of person. I really am. I feel like I'm more optimistic about things than most people are. And I am always looking to see sort of what's on the horizon versus worrying about what already happened.

[Craig Melvin]

Have you always been that way?

[Shonda Rhimes]

You know what? I've been that way since I had kids. I think. I think it's really easy to be pessimistic about the world and about life when it's just you, but when you're looking towards a future for somebody else, you really can't hang on to that. That's a dark way to be.

[Craig Melvin]

So would you say that becoming a mother was the moment that sort of probably changed who you are the most?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I guess so. I mean, it had a big, giant effect on me, for sure. I would say, like, becoming a mother makes it possible for you to stop thinking about yourself as the most important person in the world, which is really helpful. You know, if you're. If you're both a pessimist or anybody with an ego, it's a really good reality check. I definitely think it changes you and your priorities.

[Craig Melvin]

So do you. Do you think that you would have started saying yes had you not become a mom? Did one lead to the other? Or were they.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Oh, interesting. You know, when I started saying yes, my girls were, I think, nine, no, 10, 2 and 1 years old. So they were tiny. And I don't know that becoming a mother would have, like, not becoming a mother would have changed that, maybe. But I do think I became a mom. And that idea of all the stuff you do to take care of yourself to make yourself better, that goes out the window for a while. It really does. And being reminded of it and being reminded of the fact that, you know, there is value to taking care of you in all the different ways is really a big Deal. For most women who have kids, one

[Craig Melvin]

of the many things that I've always found fascinating about you, and I don't know if a lot of folks actually know this, it's in the book. And we're gonna talk about the 10 year anniversary of the book in just a moment. You were painfully shy for a long time.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yeah, painfully shy and embarrassingly so. You know, in a way that felt I was very uncomfortable in my own skin. I would rather be at home with a book in my pajamas than almost anything else. And to get a job where you're suddenly in charge, you know, I got a television show. Suddenly you're in charge of 300 plus people. Was a horrific shock to my system when it happened, because I don't think I was thinking about it that way. You know, writers and interior life, job. So it was a big change.

[Craig Melvin]

Why do you think you were so shy? What was it? Was it something about your childhood that made you that way?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I don't know. I mean, I think there's something to the fact that I'm the youngest of six and in a family like that, everything is very safe and cocooned. I'm always the baby. I feel like there's always somebody else to do something for you. In a lot of ways, perhaps. And it didn't help that I spent my entire life living in books. I read constantly. I was in my imagination constantly. So the outside world didn't really hold much sway for me in a lot of ways.

[Craig Melvin]

And I gather that your parents, they cultivated this interest as much as they could from a young age. The writing, this voracious reader that you apparently were as well, they really encouraged this.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yeah, I mean, I think everybody in my family, my parents were big readers, my siblings were big readers. So there was a lot of Saturday afternoons where everybody was just laying around reading a book. That felt normal. My mother and father made a rule for me that they would never tell me I couldn't read something. And so that was like this power. So I would go to the library and I would like pick up French Lieutenant's Woman. And the librarian would be like, you can't read that. You're too young. I was like seven. And I was like, my mom says I can read whatever I want. And my mother would come down to the library and say, don't tell her she can't read something. And it was the best thing ever because I felt like I was being like this maverick in terms of reading these books. When you're seven, you don't really know what they mean in the way that somebody older would know what they mean. But I read those books and loved them.

[Craig Melvin]

I love that. I want to go back. What prompted the year of yes?

[Shonda Rhimes]

You know, my career had taken off. I had, you know, Grey's Anatomy. I had Scandal. We had. I think we had how to get it with Murder. Like, it had all taken off in a big way. And I would come. I would, like, get all these invitations for things. Like, I would be invited to, like, by the Prince of Monaco. I would be invited to all these insane things. And one Thanksgiving, I was sitting with my sister, my oldest sister, and she was making Thanksgiving dinner while, you know, as our family was gonna come over. And I was telling her about all these fancy invitations I'd gotten. I'm invited here, and I'm inv. And I'm this. And she finally just stopped and said, shonda, are you going to do any of these things? And I remember thinking, like, what, is she crazy? I was like, absolutely not. And she just thought that was the strangest thing. And she said, you know, what's really sad is you have all these invitations. You have this whole family here to support you, you know, to be with the kids. If you wanted to go do something, you never say yes to anything. And it took me a while, but I really realized that she was right. It was really true, this idea that I had. It didn't matter what somebody asked. If it felt unfamiliar to me, if it felt like a big social commitment, if it felt like me talking in public, if it felt like anything out of my comfort zone, I said no. And I decided that I was going to spend a year saying yes to everything that scared me. But.

[Craig Melvin]

But why were you saying no? Like, because I think a lot of. I think for a lot of people, you're showing the rhymes. It's. It's like. I mean, you. You know, there are people who go out every night who've done far less and who enjoy being celebrated. And what was it you think, even after you'd achieved your success?

[Shonda Rhimes]

No, it felt. You know, I feel like success was. Was pretty damaging for me. In the beginning. I had this moment of panic every time somebody wanted to pay attention to me or there was anything to do with, like, lauding my work or me. I just felt really uncomfortable with it. I felt exposed. I'm not a person who lived an exterior life. So for me, the idea that I would be approached from the outside, my whole world was my imagination for real. And I was very comfortable with that. And I loved working on my shows because in a lot of ways, I was living vicariously through all my characters, right? And you don't even think about that. Anything I wanted to do, my characters did. And I remember being in New York when Grey's. It was clear that Grey's was this gigantic hit, and there were people rocking the bus with a cast in it. And I woke up one morning, and Maureen Dowd had written an article about me. And I remember so clearly, like, calling my producing partner Betsy and saying, we have to get out of here. We have to get out of New York. And she was like, why? I was like, there's too much attention. Like, this is terrible. And she, of course, thought I was crazy. She was like, this is the best thing that could happen for me. It felt really strange. And then things got weird. How many writers do you know? TV writers? You know who. You know them by name or by face. Like, people know who I am, and I'm a writer, which is not supposed to be in my mind, not supposed to be how it worked. I was supposed to be the person in the background happily, you know, telling my stories. To suddenly be front and center was a really scary time for me. It just. For a really shy, really introverted person, it felt like torture for a while. It really did. And I had to figure out how to get over that. And I think this experience really helped me. And, you know, I understand these are, like, diamond problems, like, oh, poor, you know, rich writer lady. People like you. But it was really confusing for the way I live my life and my brain. I also have this feeling very much of, like, why does anybody want to talk to me? And I know that that's silly, and I'm over that now. But the first thing that happened to really make me realize that I had to start saying yes to everything was that I was invited to an event in Washington, D.C. and when I got there, I was told that I was gonna be sitting with President and Mrs. Obama. Nobody asked me. They just told me. And I went and I had an amazing time, and it was fantastic, but I was still nervous. But I had this great time, and I went home, and I thought that was a once in a lifetime, incredible experience. And then I realized that if somebody had asked me if I wanted to sit with them, I would have said no. I would have absolutely, under no circumstances would I have said yes to that. That sounds terrifying. Why in the world would they want to talk to me? What do I have to say? It was that kind of thing.

[Craig Melvin]

Did the Obamas provide feedback On Grey's Anatomy during the meal, I got a

[Shonda Rhimes]

lot of feedback about scandal, for sure.

[Craig Melvin]

Oh, you know what, it's funny. I read that Mrs. Obama was a big scandal fan.

[Shonda Rhimes]

She is a big scandal fan. She really wanted me to know what I had gotten wrong about the way the White House ran, which was interesting.

[Craig Melvin]

Is it also true that when you, when you decided to do the residence, that she was sort of an unofficial consultant as well?

[Shonda Rhimes]

No, that is not true. No, no.

[Craig Melvin]

When it came to the layout of the White House, there was.

[Shonda Rhimes]

No, no. I mean, Michael Smith, who was the White House designer who, who designed the residence for the Obamas back in the day. They, he. Well, they, you know, had him in there and he was in there a lot, so I talked to him a lot. He designed my house, so I talked to him a lot about it. But, you know, we'd already become very clear about what the White House was and how it ran back when we were doing scandals. So the residents was more of like, more of what we already knew.

[Craig Melvin]

I want to go back to your childhood. You mentioned you're one of six, the youngest of six, right?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yes, I'm the youngest of six.

[Craig Melvin]

You know, parents, every time I see them, they make me smile because they remind me a lot of my own parents. How much joy and pride have they taken in all of your professional success?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Well, in my family, I know they're immensely proud. I really do. I know that they're proud because my mother pays attention to everything. My father hangs up any single thing that he finds that comes about me and saves it. I know they're immensely proud and they've told me they're proud. But in day to day life, my parents are like, you're still the youngest kid in the family. You still, like, it's your turn to wash the dishes over here at family dinner. They're proud, but they're not in interested in suggesting that they're any less proud of their other kids. My mother says all the time, she's like, I'm proud of you. Just like I'm proud of all your siblings.

[Craig Melvin]

And they're still young enough and healthy enough to enjoy it all, to enjoy seeing the fruits of their labor. For me at least, that's one of those things that always sort of moves me. Like, yeah, okay, maybe it's cool I get to do this little morning show every day, but the fact that my mom and dad can watch it every morning and send me texts about my tie choice or the fact that I look tired like that always makes My heart smile.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I agree. I mean, I think a lot about how hard my parents worked to raise us. How hard they, I mean, six kids, not easy. And how hard they worked to make sure there were opportunities for us. You know, I always say, like, my mom was like an invisible advance man for my entire life. You know what I mean? Like, going forward and making sure that anybody who suggested that this little black girl couldn't do what she wanted to do, that person was out of the way almost before I even knew they existed, you know, she was not going to have it. And so seeing how much work and how much effort and how much love and care they put into us, you know, I know that people love their parents, but I think my parents are pretty spectacular. Like, they're probably two of the best people I know on the planet.

[Craig Melvin]

More with Shonda Rhimes after the break.

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[Craig Melvin]

How old were you when you adopted your first child?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I was 32.

[Craig Melvin]

32. How did you decide at 32 that you wanted to become by choice a single mother?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I always knew I wanted to be a mom. Like that was never a question in my life. I could always imagine that. Could I always imagine a husband? Not so much. Like I wasn't that person. I'm. Why I'm a loner. I don't know. Like I just was, you know, like little girls dream of their weddings. I would play mom, but I would never play like wedding or do any of those things. It just didn't happen. I wasn't that kid. And my parents have been married forever and have the most spectacular marriage. So I have this Amazing example right in front of me of two people who are, like, literally made for each other, but it never was a priority for me in that way. But what really happened was, you know, Harper's born nine months and two days after 9 11.

[Craig Melvin]

Oh, wow.

[Shonda Rhimes]

And I had rented a house in Vermont for, like, this was my first big, like, I have some money. I'm gonna do something. And it was not that much money, but I rented this house in Vermont for a month to write. And so I had this house all rented, and I flew there, and I was gonna just sort of navel gaze and think about myself and do what you imagine writers do in houses in Vermont. And I got there, and the next morning, nine happened. And I remember being isolated in this place where I knew nobody watching this thing unfold. The lady who I'd rented the house from lived near the 911 site, and so I never heard from her again. And it was just the scariest time. And I remember thinking, like, there are all these things I always wanted to do with my life. Maybe I'm never going to get to do them. And number one on that list was adopt a baby, become a mom. It was just the number one thing on the list. And so I literally came home, I got home from Vermont, I went and found an adoption attorney. And that was the first step.

[Craig Melvin]

And after the first adoption, you enjoyed it so much, you're like, you know what? I'm going to do this two more times.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I would say I had Harper then I had 37 actors, because then I had Grays and Scandal, and we had Heidi Gray with Murder. Like, I had all of this stuff going on. And it wasn't until I realized that Harper was going to turn 10 and she was going to be an only child if I didn't get it together. And I can't imagine that. I mean, growing up in such a big family, I cannot imagine the only child thing. And I realized I had to get it together. Actors are no actors, job or no job. And so I then said, I'm going to have two more. And I went from there.

[Craig Melvin]

I want to go back to the husband thing for a second here because. Because you. You write. You write men very well. I mean, your characters are. You know, they're just.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I'm not saying I don't want to get married anymore. Like, that's. Like that. That didn't change. But at the time, it was never, like, at the top of my list when 911 happened wasn't, oh, my God, I have to find somebody to spend the rest of my life with it was, oh, my God, I'm not going to become a mother. I have to do that. So that's just how my brain works.

[Craig Melvin]

When you. When you write a man, where does that come from?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Oh, I don't know. That comes from wherever I write, all the characters. I mean, I had great men in my life. I have great examples of great men. I have great examples of bad men. We all do. And bad people. But I don't know. I honestly couldn't tell you where any of my characters come from. But I always like to say, in the beginning, when Scandal first happened, I remember being asked, how does it feel to finally have a voice of a black woman on screen? And I was like, derek shepherd spoke as the voice of a black woman. I wrote all those people, so they're all me in some capacity. And they are. So I don't know where a character comes from. They just. I don't like to say. Like, it's magical. They appear, but they appear.

[Craig Melvin]

Is it hard for you to date now?

[Shonda Rhimes]

It's hard to meet people on a level where they're. On a level where the question, what do you do? Comes to me and they actually mean it. You know what I mean? So there's already a preconceived thing ahead of meeting me, which is a bummer.

[Craig Melvin]

What's the preconceived thing, you think?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I write popular shows. People have opinions about them. They're, you know, they're mothers and sisters. And, you know, I love your shows. And that becomes kind of the conversation. And to me, like, that's talking about work versus talking about life. And I think I try to be good at that, but it's hard. Also, once again, I am innately shy. So my sister says I have absolutely no radar for anybody being interested in me at all. She's like, you're terrible at that. You never know when someone's interested.

[Craig Melvin]

So, I mean, is there. And we're gonna move on after this? Cause I don't wanna spend the entire hour talking about Shonda Rounds. Finding a man. Is there a type of guy, like, if. If. If Shonda Rhimes could, like, write the perfect guy for Shonda Rhimes, what would the guy. What would he be like? What would he look like?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Oh, I don't know what he would look like. I'm open on looks. I think for me, the most attractive thing about somebody is them being intelligent, like, really smart, and having an opinion about the world. Like, to me, that's interesting. Like, you have to be somebody who's. Who wants to be involved in the world, who. You know, I don't care if you're an activist or in the philanthropy or what. You have to be somebody who's involved in the world and cares about the world, and you have to be really intelligent. If you know anybody, please, you and your wife can set me up next time you see me.

[Craig Melvin]

We may take you up on that. But I love. I love that you are still open to. To that. Do your kids ever. Are your kids ever like, mom, like, I know this guy, or you should do this, or you should meet this guy. Are they ever like that?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Harper was. For a while, like, Harper really was always. She would. I would go on dates, and she would, like, run to the door just as we were leaving and say, make the magic happen. Like, she was really cute when she was young, but no, I think the other girls, you know, I'm mom to them. And so they're also always, like, they're very upset when I put on makeup and go anywhere. Like, they're like, what have you done to your face? You know, they're those kids who. They like me as me and at home, and they can't imagine me as a separate person. And I get that. I'm their mom, so for a while, that's gonna be okay. But, yeah, they're not into that stuff.

[Craig Melvin]

I mean, you do accept the fact that I would imagine for a lot of guys, you're probably intimidating.

[Shonda Rhimes]

That's kind of what I meant when I was saying what I was saying. I think maybe there's an intimidation factor, which comes from the fact that I'm shy. And therefore I always say, like, if you're shy and you're well known, that mix makes you seem like you might not be a nice person, or you might be aloof, or you might be cold. If you're shy and nobody knows you, people go, oh, that poor shy person. But when you're well known, they're like, you don't really have the right to be that way. So I do think it might come off that way. And I try really hard to not give that vibe off.

[Craig Melvin]

I don't think you give that vibe off. I don't. But. So let's go back to the work. Let's go back to the profession, because it's. I mean, you know, you look at your. Your resume, and it really is. It's pretty doggone remarkable. Is there one show that you're proudest of?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I think the show that I'm actually I know the show that I'm proudest of, and this is. It's interesting because I'm really proud of all the shows in different ways. But after I wrote Queen Charlotte, the prequel to Bridgerton, I really said to myself, if I never write another thing again, I'm fine. Like, I loved writing it. I loved the way it came out. I loved. Probably, you know, generally, I would have said Scandal is my favorite show, but I think it's because I got to do, like, this little jewel box of eight episodes, and they were exactly as I wanted them to be. I really love that one. I also, you know, I think about a lot. It's about a woman coming into power and figuring out who she is and standing up for herself and standing in her own shoes. So I think there's something about that. I love that one. My second favorite, or my sort of my longtime favorite, will always be Scandal. Scandal was. I knew what I was doing at that point and got to play in the sandbox versus being really worried that someone was gonna take the sandbox away.

[Craig Melvin]

Shonda, take me back to that moment that you decided, you know what, ABC's been good to me. ABC's helped make me. But professionally. But Netflix, Netflix,

[Shonda Rhimes]

I mean, I could feel a sea change. I feel like everybody should have been able to feel that sea change. When Netflix was making the crown and they were making these shows that were just spectacular, like, just these really beautiful shows with these great budgets. And I realized that I was spending more time watching Netflix than I was watching our television. And I felt pretty much that. That seemed to be true of almost anybody I knew. And I saw the budgets, and I. You know, I'd been at ABC for a long time, and they had. We'd had a great relationship. It'd been very good to me. I felt like I'd reached a point there. Betsy and I talked about this. I reached a point there where I could solve any problem in two seconds. You know, in the beginning, at the beginning of Grey's Anatomy, it would take us months to solve something, and now that same thing, literally, somebody asked me, I would tell them the answer, and it'd be done. I didn't have to think about it anymore. The challenges were not the same there at all. I wasn't learning anything new. I had sort of mastered what I was doing and, you know, working at a network and working at a company like that and was sort of ready to try something else and ready to feel, you know, ready to feel appreciated for what I was bringing to the table. In a very different way. And Netflix was really offering me creative freedom because, you know, when Ted asked me what I wanted, I said, I just want to be able to make television and everybody leave me alone. And he was like, great, fine, do it. And that's sort of how I went in there with this great feeling of, you're going to make tv. No one's going to ask you a million questions. You're going to be left alone while you're doing it. And that has been a wonderful thing.

[Craig Melvin]

More ahead with Shonda Rhimes. Stay with us.

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[Shonda Rhimes]

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[Shonda Rhimes]

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[Shonda Rhimes]

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[Craig Melvin]

Bridgerton's back. And what else are we going to get from that ecosystem?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Well, right now we're in big development cycle, so we're close to a point where we will be letting people know what's coming next. But we're not ready to start letting people know what's coming next at this exact moment. I never like to announce something until we're ready to go with it because then people get, then people get invested or excited or ask me questions.

[Craig Melvin]

Well, people are already excited, so.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I know so.

[Craig Melvin]

But beyond, beyond Queen Charlotte, like are we going to see something else come

[Shonda Rhimes]

out of, of the Bridgerton world, you mean? Yeah, I think. Definitely. I mean, I think that's an area that we're excited about and know that that could be really rich and really mined. Well, I've always said that. I thought if we were going to do something like that Violet would be a great person to tell the story about The Bridgerton mom. So, yeah, that's a possibility. But also, we're just looking at, you know, we're working on developing. Well, not even working. We're currently developing other projects that are very different worlds from Bridgerton, because while Bridgerton's amazing, we always continue to want to stretch and grow.

[Craig Melvin]

Wait a minute now. What kind of other worlds are we talking here? Because you and I once talked about sci fi. Do you remember this?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Do I remember it? I still talk about sci fi constantly. And that is a genre that I'm still really interested in and have been fiddling around in. Yeah, I don't know when we're going to have a sci fi project because that's a little on me. But I do know it's something I really, really want. And I want kind of an action series. I think that'd be kind of a female action series.

[Craig Melvin]

One of the things. By the way, for whatever it's worth, my aunt really wishes that you could figure out a way to bring back

[Shonda Rhimes]

Reggae Jean Page, your aunt, and everybody else on the planet. I hear that all the time.

[Craig Melvin]

Is there. You can't. We can't bring him back. There's no.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I think for reggae, he did what he came to do. And it was sort of what we said, which is, I said, you're gonna come on for one season. You're gonna be this big romantic lead. You're gonna have this amazing part, and then you're gone. But if you notice, every season is about one romance. And once you've had your romance, there's really not a lot of story that you're carrying after that. So you have this season where you're number one on the call sheet, you're the leading man, and then. Then you're in the background. Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

By the way, I think that's one thing people have, at least one thing I've always enjoyed about you, like Shonda Ramsey will kill off a character in a heartbeat. She'll write somebody, you'll love somebody, and they disappear and it's like, that's it.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Well, you know, my job, I always say this. My job is to be the keeper of the story. My job is not to be the keeper of the fans. My job is not to be the keeper of my friendships with actors. My job is to do what the story dictates. And that is really hard to do, but it's also really important because if that's not where my mind is, then I'm not telling the best story I can. And I feel like people would feel that and know that I don't think you can live in a world where your whole goal is to give the fans what they want. Because what the fans want to see is Meredith and Derek holding hands on a beach for the rest of time. That'd be a very boring show. You know, I look back on some of the deaths on some of the characters, and I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe I did that. Now in perspective, but at the time, it was what the story dictated to me so clearly that there was no other choice.

[Craig Melvin]

Is there a moment that you can recall when a fan came up to you and they were like, shonda, I can't believe you did this.

[Shonda Rhimes]

A moment. You know, that happens to me at least three times a week. Still. Still. And I haven't killed anybody in a long time.

[Craig Melvin]

What do they come up and say? What do they come up and say?

[Shonda Rhimes]

There's a lot of you traumatized me when you killed George. Why did you kill McDreamy? There's a lot of, like, that's a big question constantly. And then, you know, there's the other group of people who say, that plane crash ruined my life because, you know, we killed a bunch of people in plane crash. And I get it. I get it. For me, it was when we killed Denny, like, I did what the story dictated, and I hated every minute of it for Izzy in that early seasons. But you do what you gotta do for the story. Wow.

[Craig Melvin]

When you write, do you procrastinate?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I don't believe in the phrase procrastinate.

[Craig Melvin]

I mean, what does that mean? What do you mean you don't believe in it?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I mean, yeah, I do procrastinate all the time. But what I like to say is I'm not quite ready to write yet. That's.

[Craig Melvin]

That's procrastination.

[Shonda Rhimes]

But there's this. Well, there's this moment when for me, like, I'm. I'm thinking. So I really do do shows in the way that, like, if I'm writing a television pilot, I spend, like nine months thinking about it, not writing anything down. Just nine months thinking about it. And then I'll sit down and like, two or three days, I'll write the pilot. So a lot of what people call procrastinating, I like to say, is just me not ready to write yet. I'm still, like, I'm still percolating. It's not great for people. Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

You spend months before you put pen to paper just actually thinking.

[Shonda Rhimes]

And then when I can put into paper Then I'm done thinking, I can then just write the story and that happens pretty quickly. But if I'm, you know, if I'm not done thinking, there's no point in me trying to write something.

[Craig Melvin]

Has that always been the process?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Yeah, it has. I mean, for my whole life that's been the process.

[Craig Melvin]

It seems like it served you well. I guess. Why fix it if it ain't broken, huh?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I'm sure there's a better way to do it, but for me, that's where it's worse. So I've been rewarded for it. So I'm not going to stop.

[Craig Melvin]

The kids want to know if you're on TikTok.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I am on TikTok. I don't think I'm very good at TikTok yet, but. And my children are slightly embarrassed that I'm on there, but I have fun.

[Craig Melvin]

Your children can't be embarrassed by you.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Oh, my God. I'm the most embarrassing person. Anybody's mother is the most embarrassing person in the world. My 11 year old has a pact with all of her friends that they will never, ever watch Grey's Anatomy because how embarrassing is it that her mother wrote it and they've all agreed? Yeah, I think it's kind of great. I mean, I think it would be weird if my children were like, my mom's super interesting and important. Nobody thinks that about their mom at that age.

[Craig Melvin]

You know what you should tell them? You should tell them. Sometimes I tell my kids, when they complain about commercials or the news, I'll tell them. I'm like, hey, they paid for this house.

[Shonda Rhimes]

That's what I say for those clothes.

[Craig Melvin]

They paid for that food that, that

[Shonda Rhimes]

I say all the time. Because they'll be like, I don't want to see that, or you wrote that or what? And I'm like, that's how we make a living. And when my kids are. My kids are on YouTube, like scrolling or whatever, I'm like, you're ruining my profession. Get there. Get. Sit down and watch some regular TV

[Craig Melvin]

Fans want to know if there's any remote chance that there might be a Scandal movie.

[Shonda Rhimes]

You know, I love my scandal people. We. We have a little reunion every year at the US Open. Like, we're all really, really close. I would work with them on anything. Do I think there's a scandal moving in us? I don't know. I mean, Carrie and I have batted it back and forth, so I'm not saying no, but I'm definitely not saying yes. So I don't want people to get too excited.

[Craig Melvin]

So what you will say, though, is that there have been conversations about the possibility of a scandal movie, just between

[Shonda Rhimes]

Carrie and I, not between anybody else. I have not brought anybody else in the conversation, I. E. The people who would pay for a scandal movie.

[Craig Melvin]

Well, you know what? I'm just saying that they're conversations that's gonna be enough to make a lot of people very happy. We've got two minutes left. I'm gonna give you two questions for looking back. Shonda Rhimes, Is there a moment that you would approach differently knowing what you know now?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I think there's a lifetime I would approach differently. If I knew then what I know now, I would have enjoyed everything so much more. I think I spent a lot of time working where you're trying to get somewhere, and I was busy trying to get somewhere, not really realizing that I was already there at the point. You know, the first time I realized that I had made it was, and I'm not kidding, I was sitting in the audience listening to Oprah Winfrey induct me into the Television Academy hall of Fame. That was the first time it occurred to me that I could relax. And that's way too late in the game for that to happen. And if I had, you know what I mean? Like, I spent every time being like, that was great. That was great. What's next? Or I have to work harder. I never, like, sat in a moment and went, like. And took it in. And that moment taught me, like, you have to sit in these moments and take them in, because every last one of them, they were all amazing. You know, even when I was worried that, like, so we made the first episode of Grace, I should have been thrilled and celebrating that. Instead, I was so worried about, like, how to keep going and what was it gonna be. So, yeah, I would've enjoyed it more. I think that's important.

[Craig Melvin]

But it seems like you're enjoying it now.

[Shonda Rhimes]

I am enjoying it immensely now. That has become part of the thing. You know, One of the things that happened with this new edition of Year of Yes is I sat down to write about where I am 10 years after writing the first book. And it was a real exploration of who I'd become and kind of a moment of realization of the places where I'd, like, backslid and started saying no again, but also the places where I'd said yes. And it had truly been life changing. I can look at my life then and look at my life now and see the changes so clearly. And that's been an amazing thing. Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

Do you still say yes to everything?

[Shonda Rhimes]

Not everything. But now I feel like I say yes to enough things that I feel comfortable saying no. Before, I would be like, maybe I shouldn't say no. Now I feel very comfortable saying no to things, and I say yes to the things that excite me.

[Craig Melvin]

Your glass is half full. My glass is half full. We're gonna close with a cheers. Another toast. We're gonna toast the one moment that Shonda Rhimes is still chasing. Is there one thing that you would still love to do that you haven't done yet?

[Shonda Rhimes]

I'd love to write a play. I'd love to have a play on Broadway. That would be amazing to me.

[Craig Melvin]

Cheers to your Broadway play.

[Shonda Rhimes]

Cheers.

[Craig Melvin]

There you have it. And you thought you knew Shonda Rhimes. A big thanks to Shonda. The 10th anniversary of her book the Year of Yes, the 10th anniversary edition. It is out now. And thank you so much. Thanks for joining me today on that. That journey with Shonda Rhimes. I hope you enjoyed our conversation. The podcast bosses that oversee this operation have encouraged me to tell you to subscribe or download and I will see you back here next time. Enjoy. I don't know why I'm blowing kisses. That's probably not the best way to end the podcast. I will see you back here next time for Glass Half Full, but for now, cheers. Today's episode of Glass Half Full with Craig Melvin is produced by Sadie Bass and Jarrett Crawford along with Lilia Wood. Ali Straim is our editor and Matt Tierney is our audio engineer, Ariana Davis. Davis and Ashley Kodiani are our executive producers. Additional production support is provided by Anne Legamayo, Chloe Leong, Ashley Domagola, Bailey Coronis and Gabriela Rudy.

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