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Bonus: Can an African team win the World Cup?
00:47:33
Can an African team win the World Cup? From the More than the Score podcast
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- [00:00]
Lee James
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
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Gabriel Zakuani
Awake Debatable.
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Ryan Seacrest
Hungry?
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Gabriel Zakuani
Absolutely.
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Ryan Seacrest
Your morning routine consisted of scrambling to
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Gabriel Zakuani
find your phone, wallet and keys and you're already out the door.
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Stephen Kolka
Cool off with a refreshing large Big
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Ryan Seacrest
gulp drink at 7:11, cold refreshing and
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Gabriel Zakuani
made the way you like it. It's available at 7:11 and just $0.59 with 7 rewards. Download the app and swing by the local 7:11 near you. Valid through 6 hours 23 minutes 26 while supplies last participating stores see after
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Lee James
full Foreign
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Ryan Seacrest
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Valerie Sanderson
Hello, I'm Valerie Sanderson from the Global News Podcast. With the World cup now underway, we thought you'd enjoy hearing from another BBC World Service podcast More Than the Score. All through the tournament, they'll be telling stories of the new teams, standout stars, trends and fandoms changing the game in ways the stats simply don't show. In this episode, they're asking if any of the 10 African nations in this year's tournament could could win it all. You can listen to the whole episode right here and I hope you enjoy it.
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Lee James
Hello, I'm Lee James and this is More Than the Score, the BBC World Service podcast that's looking at the stories beyond the score sheets at the FIFA Men's World cup. Half a century on, from Pele's infamous prophecy that an African nation will win the World cup before the year 2000, could this finally be the tournament where the continent delivers its maiden global title? Foreign. Cameroon's run to the 1990 quarter final was the first of Africa's significant achievements, emulated by Senegal in 2002 and Ghana in 2010, and then surpassed by Morocco at the last tournament in Qatar in 2022 when they produced the watershed moment reaching the semi finals. Now a record 10 African nations will compete at these World cup finals. Could one of those nations deliver Africa's first World Cup? Well, the Democratic Republic of Congo are represented for only the second time in their history and their former captain Gabriel Zakuani is with us, along with the former Sierra Leone captain and Premier League defender Steven Kolka hello to you both.
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Gabriel Zakuani
Hi.
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Stephen Kolka
How you doing?
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Gabriel Zakuani
Hi, Lee.
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Lee James
Welcome, both of you. This is a specially extended edition of the More Than the Score podcast by. Because we've got so much to fit in. But first of all, Gabby, you must be tremendously proud that the Leopards are back on the world stage then playing at their first finals for over 50 years.
- [03:06]
Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, I mean, obviously, I'm absolutely buzzing. It's still taking time to sink in. You know, all the preparation's gone for this over the last four years. I would say we really took 100% in focus in getting to the World cup, and so this is a dream realized, but we're not there just to make up the numbers, so. So we're there to compete. And the hard work really starts now.
- [03:26]
Lee James
Steven, you played in World cup qualifiers for Sierra Leone. You know that Africa's qualification process for the tournament has arguably been the most brutal in world football. Strong teams often missed out on the global showpiece. How important now we've got 10 teams then representing the continent at the finals.
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Stephen Kolka
Yeah. Such a good opportunity for African football to really go and showcase what they've got. They've got so much individual talent, and I think what we're seeing now are teams really well prepared by their coaches. I think we've seen not just the individual talent now. I think we're now seeing a collective unit. And, you know, Morocco set the standard in the last World cup, and I'm really excited to see what the teams can do this year. I think that there may be one
- [04:06]
Lee James
or two surprises in there and great opportunities for all. But, Steven, for a team like Cap Verde making their debut, they'll be the 14th African nation to have played at the World cup finals. It is special, isn't it, for players and for everyone connected to the country.
- [04:20]
Stephen Kolka
It's a fairy tale, honestly. Like, when I look at it, I'm a little bit jealous, in all honesty, of what they've managed to achieve. It's such a small country, but they've managed to recruit really well. They've got a team together there. Like I said, it's. It's a team that plays collectively. They. They've got, of course, individual talent, but it's how they play collectively that had brought them the success is really, really exciting for Cape Verde, I think, for all of African football. I think everyone has a soft spot for them, you know? Of course, you know, Gabby was saying he's rooting for Dia Congo, but I think if you were to choose a second team, I think Cape Verde is The one. Because there is a real soft spot for them amongst us Africans.
- [04:54]
Lee James
Yeah. If you're picking a second team, perhaps Cap Verde, we'll see what their prospects are like a little later then. Now. It is difficult to win a World Cup. Only eight nations have managed to do it, representing only two continents. So Africa is not alone in seeking this first continental winner. Historically, there just weren't sufficient opportunities to qualify. That said, though, what do you both believe has historically held back teams from Africa then, Gabby?
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Gabriel Zakuani
First of all, I think the infrastructure, I think, is the first part. I think there's not really been too much focus on it. Morocco have gone above and beyond in Africa to make sure they've got the infrastructure for the men's, the women, everyone involved, and to make sure. And we've seen the effects of that at the last World cup where they actually did really well. They went really deep into the World Cup. So I think that shows that if. If everyone really, with the funding focuses on the football, it could really then level the playing field. But I just think that's been the difference. And Morocco are showing that it's possible to start bridging that gap when you start really investing in football in your country.
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Lee James
So that's putting the money in then, Gabby, to get better facilities, better pitches, to train on. Everything that comes with that?
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Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, everything that comes with that. I mean, with the drc, we've used their facilities as well. We haven't got that level of facility. So when we have training camps, there's been times where we've gone to Morocco and used their facilities. And it is incredible. You know, it's not too far from what you see with the England team in Derby, having that facility and with the women's team and everyone involved, the hotels, they've got everything that you can need as a professional footballer. So I think seeing that in Morocco and other countries using. Using their. Their base to. To. To do their training camp just shows you how far they've gone and in their result in the World cup tells you exactly what it can do to a nation.
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Lee James
Stephen, you represented England at younger age group levels before switching allegiances to Sierra Leone. What are your observations then on that, then, and the challenges that players can face when representing international football teams in Africa?
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Stephen Kolka
Gabby's 100% hit the nail on the head. Infrastructure has been the biggest, I think, pullback, really, for a lot of African nations. I certainly experienced that with Sierra Leone switching allegiances from England, where everything's done for you to then go into Sierra Leone. Listen, they've made a lot of progress in recent years, as have a lot of the countries. I would add to what Gabby mentioned there would be as part of the infrastructure is the travel. That's been a big, big issue across African football for a long time. The travel, how you prepare for the game is massive. If you're getting on flights, free for indirect flights, traveling 20, 24 hours at a time, sleeping at airports and then having to play a day or two later, of course, that's naturally going to give the opposition an advantage, I think, closing the gap on that. You mentioned Morocco having top facilities. And, you know, as part of Sierra Leone, we used to all the time go to Morocco and play there. Ivory coast, now off the back of afcon, have now got the stadiums and the infrastructure there now, where we often use their facilities. So there are other African nations building that. And the last thing I'll add is, if you look at Senegal, what they've done is they've built from the bottom up. You know, they've built with the youth teams, they put a heavy focus into that. They've not just gone, right, okay, we're going to get a result magically through Sardio Mane, they've actually gone, right, let's build a team from scratch. And that's what they've done there. And I feel that they're reaping the rewards. You know, there's a lot of talk around Morocco, but I'm a big fan of Senegal. In my eyes, they're still the people's champions from, from the last afcon. And I think that, you know, teams can learn from both Morocco and Senegal in terms of development.
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Lee James
So it's about putting resources in that, and sometimes those resources can be scarce. So it's about how you direct those, those funds in the right way, then?
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Stephen Kolka
Absolutely. For me, it's about putting the money in the right hands to begin with and then making the right decisions about it. Of course, it's. It's not always easy. People are going to make mistakes at the top. All the way from the top to the bottom, people are going to make that. And I think players are understanding of that. But let's make sure that when the money is there, that it is going to the right places. Another thing I'd add is recruitment. So a lot of what, you know, Cape Verde we just spoke about, they were going to recruited players that are playing abroad that have, you know, some kind of connection to the country. Myself being a good example with Sierra Leone, my granddad was born there. And through that link that was how I then represented the country. So I think recruitment's also been a big part in helping strengthen a lot of nations.
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Lee James
And Gabi, that's something that you're working with, with the Democratic Republic of Congo, working with those younger age group levels to try and ensure that the nation has the very best talent. Then from the diaspora of players from around the world, from the European born players, perhaps with Congolese heritage.
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Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, I mean, what, what countries? There's a lot of players who are playing in Europe, but then don't see the African country as their sort of their, their home and they rather play for sort of the bigger nation in sort of in inverted commas. But I think when teams are starting to make it to the World cup, for example, like the DRC this year with Cape Verde, it's easier to attract players from the European countries than to go back home and to start representing their country. So I think it's a mixture of so many things. I think infrastructure is a massive thing. I think recruitment is massive. And also you have to do well to get the players to believe in your vision as well. So I think teams starting to do better and going to World Cups and doing well in African cup of Nation tournaments will encourage the younger generation to want to emulate those players. So I think it all goes hand in hand.
- [10:35]
Lee James
So they've got to have those role models. And that's what you're telling the players that you speak to, to try and encourage them to represent the Democratic Republic of Congo. They can see now that there is a pathway there.
- [10:45]
Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, I mean, what before the pathway wasn't really there, you know, it was just a hope and we can make it happen together. But now I think they can see the work that's been put in. So now want to play at the biggest stage potentially. They can't play for England, they won't play for Belgium, they won't play for France, but they can still get to the World cup and represent their, their country, which is massive. And the biggest example, I think is Axel Tuanzibi. You know, he's gone through the system with the England, with the England team. I had a conversation with him, I think it's probably four years ago. And then he scores the goal to get us to the World cup, you know, so that is the sort of fairy tale ending to it and probably the story I'll use for the next player that I try and get into the country. So I think it's, it's something that is obviously working, but I just think Players need to believe in the vision. And that, that, that story there with Tanzibi and Aaron Wan Bissaka coming through and getting the country to the World cup over the line, I think it can inspire the next generation.
- [11:41]
Lee James
You take all the credit for that, Gabby.
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Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, you said, you said it, not me.
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Lee James
Stephen, what encouraged you to make that switch then? Having represented England and perhaps at one stage thought that was the dream, to play for England at full international level and then represented Sierra Leone and went on to play at an Africa cup of Nations.
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Stephen Kolka
Do you know what? Similar to the role that Gabby played, I had Colton Cole on the phone to me. So Colton Cole with Sierra Leone Heritage, never actually represented the country, but strong connections there, reached out and said, look, you know, my uncle's part of the committee there. They want to. They want to bring you in and you're up having a conversation. And I'm always someone's open to having the conversation. I never know where that's going to lead to. But I felt after speaking with the coach, this feels like really a really exciting challenge. It's something that came much later on in my career and I kind of wish it came earlier on, but I can really relate to the. The stories there that Gabby's talking about. I'm finding a little bit harder with Sierra Leone because there isn't that, you know, sort of dream of, look, the World cup look, even AFCON right now is a bit of a stretch, so it is really difficult. But I find it quite interesting that we're both kind of doing similar roles, but at different stages. So we're at that beginning stage and I will now use the story of Dr. Congo and say, look, look, there is that success. It is possible over the road. It just takes, I think, one or two slightly bigger names that say to make the decision to go, and then I think the rest will follow. And it's really, I think it's an exciting time for African football because it's very much on the rise and people are standing up and taking note.
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Lee James
Yeah, of course, there's so much talent, is there, Gabby, and that could be tapped into, that could represent African nations. The likes of Kylian Mbappe, of course, could have played on the continent, but it's about developing that talent and we can't say there isn't it. There isn't that talent there that could have delivered a World Cup. Already we've seen so many wonderful top African footballers. Even this tournament with the likes of Sadio Mane, Mohamed Salah, Riyad Mahrez, okay, towards the end of their careers, but certainly falling into that. That category where they've certainly delivered for their countries. Gabby?
- [13:39]
Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, no, they have. They have delivered for their countries, but I think it's just, it's always. We're missing that final part still when it comes to. To the African sort of giants that are doing well when it comes to African football. But again, I think we just go back to the last tournament. I think Morocco did very well. And then now you've seen, you've mentioned Sadio Mane. Senegal, for me, are probably the best team in Africa at this moment in time, you know, and they, if they can go that extra step, it would be great. But there's always, at the mo. At this moment in time, there is something missing and probably those points that we made earlier about infrastructure and to make sure that, that, that they are doing things correctly, just like the sort of the big European countries would probably be the bit that they can bridge the gap. But at this moment in time, I think there's so much talent and I think having 10 teams there will be a surprise or one of the African teams surely will go deep into the tournament.
- [14:31]
Lee James
Anything in the fact that the successes have come with homegrown coaches. Gabi Walidragi with Morocco to the World cup semi finals at recent Africa cup of Nations, Mercifa with Ivory Coast, Pap diao with Senegal sort of validated that homegrown coaching model. I noticed only four of the 10 teams this time, of local coaches. But can that make a real difference?
- [14:54]
Gabriel Zakuani
It can. I mean, it's someone that can resonate and someone that. That will be probably a bit more passionate because that's where they're from and, you know, they're a fan as well. So it does make probably give them that extra 10% on the side, but I'm just still not sure if that makes the full difference because at the end of the day, they have to be ready to manage at the big stage and to deal with the pressure. So it all comes with a lot of different attributes that you need as a manager, but I think that can make a difference and it shows in terms of success. You can see with Morocco, with Senegal, with countries that have gone on and done well, that it can give them that extra 10% because they've got someone that really resonates with the country.
- [15:37]
Lee James
And what do you think, Stephen, Morocco's journey to the semi finals has done? It shattered that quarterfinal ceiling that had frustrated African ambition since Cameroon's run in 1990. So what has that done for expectations now that we have seen an African team really move from participant to contender,
- [15:54]
Stephen Kolka
they've shown it's possible. You know, they've set a standard there. And I think that, you know, personally, I think Senegal will be the team this year that will come closest to the final, maybe even win it. Why not like. Why not like this? They're just like, oh, if we just get that, why not that it is possible. Of course, it's going to be difficult coming up against some great nations with great players who are very well organized. But I just want to mention the coaches that you spoke about there. I'm actually a big fan of homegrown coaches. I think it's really important that the coaches do have the connection with the country. They do have the connection with the players. I mean, it's just my opinion, if you look where we're sat today in England, you've got a German manager who may well bring England the World Cup. You. It's a matter of opinion, but I do believe having someone who's been there knows the country inside out, knows what it means, because ultimately, when you get to that level and, you know, you're there, you're competing on that stage, a lot of it is about the feeling, you know, what's, What's. What's the energy like within the dressing room. Of course, tactics play their part, but the biggest part when the players walk out on that pitch is how they're feeling collectively. And then the manager, for me, is the one who. Who leads the way. And I'm really excited. I'm excited to see, of course, Salah probably at his, you know, last World Cup. I'm excited to see what Ivory coast bring to the table. South Africa, who are my dark horse in afcon. What can they do in the World Cup? I've always speak highly of South Africa. I'm waiting for that to come to fruition and to sit on this call and say, I told you, South Africa are a good team. But, you know, there is. There's just so much to talk about, and it's a really exciting tournament ahead.
- [17:23]
Lee James
Yeah, we'll go through each of those teams shortly. I mean, just finally on the coaches. I suppose it depends on what kind of project it is. Gabi, as well, whether that European coach has been at the country for a long period of time and has really built up that team, or whether, as we've seen in previous tournaments, you know, a big European name is just brought in for the World cup finals. Carlos Quiros has been appointed by Ghana for these World cup finals at the very late stage and often perhaps hasn't had that connection.
- [17:50]
Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, I mean, connection is always important. You know, we. We've tried the homegrown route before where we had Ibenge, who did very well, sort of the Africa of nations, but always fell short of the World cup stage. Then we bought a Sebastian de Sabra who has that European connection, probably helps with the recruitment as well. And he has that African experience. And to me apart, he's French, but he seems like he's Congolese every time we have a conversation, because he's so passionate about. About the DRC and spends a lot of his time in the drc, even when there's no games, you know, watching players coming through and trying to build the infrastructure. So it is just about what they represent and what they want to do with the country. And if they are very invested, then they can be as, as crucial as someone who's homegrown.
- [18:38]
Lee James
And before we go through the teams this time around, can either of you honestly say that an African team has. Has missed out, perhaps. Obviously, Morocco, having got to a semi final, could well have gone on to win that tournament. But we've had some big shocks. Senegal beating France and their run in 2002, Cameroon in 1990 with Argentina. But can we honestly say that there's an African team that's missed out on a World cup anywhere down the line? Steven, what do you think?
- [19:04]
Stephen Kolka
Not in my opinion. Not in my opinion. I don't think. I think at the end of the tournament, the best team wins. And I think that, you know, if they've fallen short, they've fallen short for a reason. Whether that's infrastructure that we mentioned, whether that be the recruitment, whether that'd be a bit bad luck. You always need a little bit of luck to win anything in football. You always need a little bit of luck. So, I mean, there's many factors as to why the African teams haven't yet won it. But have they been deserving of it? No, not in my opinion. Not yet. But hopefully this tournament will change that.
- [19:30]
Lee James
Gabby? Ghana will say a certain handball, of course, in 2010, and things could have gone very differently there for them. Exit at the quarterfinal stage. But has any really missed out?
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Gabriel Zakuani
Nah, I feel I agree with Stephen there. I think none has missed out that you think they should have won the World cup or anything to that. I think at this moment in time, the mindset of African football has just been they've done well, but just not quite good enough, you know, and Morocco's probably Changed the landscape in thinking possibly, you know, you're one game away from, from winning a tournament now. So I think it's a bit open now. Teams are going there, they're going to be free, they're going to attack and hopefully one can surprise us and hopefully even get to a final.
- [20:10]
Lee James
Well, Sunday Elise represented Nigeria at their first World cup finals played in the United States in 1994. They reached the round 16. Does he think Africa can improve on Morocco's semi final place in 2022?
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Sunday Alise
Well, it's possible they can. We can build on it. In fact, the, the eggshell has been broken now. Everybody knows that. You can. Good. You can get that far? I think so. But the question I'm asking myself now is that the way the Moroccans played four years ago, it's certain if they play that same way now, they won't get that far because they played it tactically very, very cagey style and came out countering to win games, you know. But now if you do that now you're gonna struggle. But for the African nations, I think there's so much I, I am kind of like at twisted because I'm very sad because Nigeria is not going. That's kind of like spoiled a lot of things for me personally. But if you look at it from a general point of view, there are so many interesting nations that I have had the, the honor and the pleasure of working on as an expert or as an a commentators that I've seen them play, that I'm looking forward to seeing them how they can do on, on the, on the world stage. But I think it should be greatly.
- [21:27]
Lee James
Which of the African teams do you think then potentially has the best chance of success Sunday?
- [21:31]
Sunday Alise
Lydia? So many of them. I find Senegal extremely strong. Senegal is solid, really. Very, very solid. I find the Moroccans also solid. How they now cope with the change of manager, I don't know how that's going to affect them. I find those ones very, very solid. And also I think that of all nations that could have really qualified for the major tournament, there are some that have worries for especially those who have, who have changing managers, who change managers. I'm really worried for those ones. And one team that I think might surprise people a bit might be Cape Verde because just as they shocked the whole Africa to qualify, others might even find them to be, you know, surprising too.
- [22:15]
Lee James
And I'll be getting closer to, you know, having an African team win the World cup, whether it's at this edition or, you know, in the next one or two do you think we will see an African team win a World cup soon?
- [22:26]
Sunday Alise
No, Lee, there's if there's something I want to see before God takes me to heaven or hell, I don't know which one he's sending me to. It would be, it would be great to see an African nation win this because this is a competition, a tournament that we all love passionately in Africa. And whoever wins that, whoa, I wish them good luck because they're going to enjoy it a lot.
- [22:49]
Lee James
That's the former Nigeria captain Sunday Alise, the former Democratic Republic of Congo captain Gabriel Zaquani, the former Sierra Leone captain and Premier League defender Stephen Kolka are with us as we discuss when will an African nation win the World Cup?
- [23:05]
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- [25:04]
Lee James
Now, in order of the FIFA world rankings at this tournament, we have Morocco ranked 8th, Senegal 14. Then Algeria, Egypt, Ivory Coast, Tunisia, the DRC, South Africa, CAP Verde and Ghana. So which African nations do you think has the best chance of going deep into this tournament? Let's look through them then, starting with the finalists from the recent Africa cup of Nations. I think it's easier to say the finalists because we're not exactly sure who the winners were. Senegal beat the host Morocco in the final back in January. That chaotic end to the game. Senegal's players walking off after their opponents were awarded that stoppage time penalty with a match goal as they scored a winner in extra time. But the Confederation of African Football overturned that result and awarded Morocco the three nil victory. Senegal have appealed to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. So, I mean, actually on that, Gabby, is there a bit of a cloud hanging over these two teams? I mean, let's see if they meet at any stage. But, you know, could that have an impact at all on the World Cup?
- [26:05]
Gabriel Zakuani
No, I don't think so. I think. I think we're. I don't know anyone who's taken it very seriously that Morocco, I think everyone does. Look at Senegal. That was Senegal's trophy. I think the Court of Arbitration. It'll be interesting to see what the outcome is. But I don't think, I think Senegal, one thing about them, they're very efficient, they're very professional when it comes to getting the business done on the pitch. And I don't think that will be something that will overcloud or change in the way they prepare for this tournament.
- [26:34]
Lee James
And Morocco, they're in group C, so they face Brazil. They've got a tough draw. That is their first game at the MetLife Stadium in New Jersey. Then Haiti and Scotland. Stephen. So they've got to show, haven't they, that 2022 wasn't just a one off. And as Sunday Lisa was saying, they're under a new coach, Mohamedu Abi. So lots to prove for sure.
- [26:56]
Stephen Kolka
I think, you know, where Morocco are concerned, it'd be a battle between them and Scotland for the second place. I expect Brazil to top the group. Haiti, unfortunately, to finish on the bottom. And I believe it'll be between Scotland and Morocco for that second place. So you say they've got a tough group, but I'm looking at the groups here. What group would they want to fall in. You know, if you look at some of the teams that are in there and some of the groups, I would say that's not a favorable group, but it's, it's certainly a group where it's achievable for them to, to get out the group and get into the, to the knockout stages.
- [27:26]
Lee James
Yes, perhaps once they've got beyond the first game, and let's not write off that first game, it may be the best time to play Brazil first up mindset. But I suppose beyond that, yes, you do think there's the opportunity there to get out the group. You'd expect them to.
- [27:39]
Stephen Kolka
I certainly would expect them to. I think that Scotland, although they're a great nation, they've done wonderful things under Steve Clark. I do think that they often fall short when it comes to the, to the big tournaments. This could be their year. But I expect Morocco to stand in their way. The first game against Brazil, I mean, look, Brazil haven't been fantastic, you know that there's been a lot of talk around. Of course they've got Carlo Ancelotti in there now, who's just the don of all managers. But if we've been honest, Brazil, and not to say Brazil that we saw 15, 20 years ago. So it is a game that is possible, possible to win, but I, if I'm sitting in Morocco's camp, if I'm the one of the coaches there, I'll be going. Right. We aim to win it. Of course you aim to win the group, but second place is, is very achievable.
- [28:23]
Lee James
And just to make everyone aware, in this enlarged 48 team World cup finals, the top two from each of the 12 groups progresses and the eight best third place teams also make it through to a round of 32. So more opportunities at Senegal. Gary weren't beaten in qualifying, made that really strong statement against England, becoming the first African side to beat them 31 at Wembley last June packed with talent. If we look at the likes of Nicholas Jackson, who's been on loan at Bayern Munich from Chelsea, Ismalassa, you know, creative players there, what is going to hold them back if, if anything, do you think in this tournament?
- [29:02]
Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, I don't think much. I think they, they're a side that have been building, they're very mature side as well. Have leaders in the team, don't rarely get anything wrong. Always have to do exactly what they have to do to, to get through. You know, I mean, we had them in our group for, for qualifying for, for the World cup and we barely made, dropped any points, but they just got the, the extra point to make sure that they got the result and got through where we had to go through the whole playoff system and the long way round to the World cup. But it was a nearly perfect World cup qualifying performance by us. But they still managed to do just a little bit more and they just seem to always have a result for whatever you've got. They can always do a little bit more and, and I expect them to do really well. I think they, they, they've shown that they, they are a side who's developing and now they are aside to really be capable of, of performing really well.
- [29:56]
Lee James
We'll look at their group after we've heard from the Senegal and Everton forward. Here is Illiman and Jali.
- [30:01]
Illiman Jali
Since I was young, I've always wanted to represent Senegal. And then obviously When I was 10, 11, 12, I went to Senegal for a year to see my family, you know, to see the culture and everything in Senegal. And from then on, like, it was like, all right, that makes my decision easier. And yeah, I've never changed the, or the bag or anything like that. It's always been senable. I recommend, you know, if you're African, go and present your African country. It's the best thing you ever do. We never fear anyone. I think we've always, we've seen it in the past when we played England, when we played Brazil. You know, we focus on ourselves and we win games. So yeah, I don't, I don't think it matters who we're playing against. Just mars if, you know, if we turn up on the day or not. And then obviously like, we, we don't go to a competition if it's not to win it. You know, I wouldn't even bother packing my suitcase and traveling to the World cup if it's not to win it. I don't play these tournaments to just, to just to just be a, a tourist or, you know, I just played. We, we played this, this tournaments to win it and yeah, what more could did in the last World cup should give all these African teams an inspiration and you know, a, like, oh, they did it. Like, why can't we do it? They did a brilliant, brilliant competition that year. And yeah, we need to, we need to go into that tournament to, to be very confident and, and try and, you know, focus on ourselves and like I said, go as far as we can in the World cup and maybe, maybe win it.
- [31:30]
Lee James
And it's Illiman Chai of Senegal certainly aiming for a World cup win and talking about his reasons for choosing to represent them. Born in France. In fact, France's influence on this World cup is staggering. Nearly 100 players born in France are going to feature in the finals, 75 of them representing other nations. That means around 8% of every player at the tournament was born in France. But Illiman and Giatt representing Senegal, they are, I think, Steven, in a tough group. Then formidable sides in France and Norway. Potentially tricky game against Iraq and it starts with a repeat of that shock 2002 opener against the French. Then they've got to have to stop the goal machine, Erling Haaland. So lots of work for them.
- [32:15]
Stephen Kolka
Yeah, this is. This is a tough group. I would say that this is probably tougher than Morocco's group to face France. You'd expect France in this group to top it. As you mentioned there, Norway, you've got Erling Harland, you've got Martin Odegaard off the back of winning the Premier League there. They're a strong nation. Of course, if Senegal were able to keep Erling Holland quiet, then there's a big possibility that they'll be able to get. Get the points from that game. But it's certainly a tough. Senegal, I believe, are the strongest African nation in the tournament, but they've got the toughest job of getting out of the group. Thankfully, as you mentioned, they're the third best place. I think will give them a little bit of comfort knowing that, okay, if we aren't able to finish first or second, the third place should certainly be theirs.
- [32:59]
Lee James
Yeah. And if they are to win the World cup, though, I haven't plotted it all the way through. Gabby. There's a lot to get through. There's a lot of detail in the draw, but it would obviously potentially mean a harder match in the round of 32. So if we're talking about World cup winners, does Senegal have to be in the. In the top two? Do they have to be looking to top the group even?
- [33:18]
Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, I think. I think that's the aim. You know, you have to. I can't see Senegal going into this group and hoping to scrape through the group. I think they. They've shown that they can compete with the best and they will go in there with no fear. I think they. They're capable of. Of topping the group. Also, you know, they've caused upsets in the past, but now they've shown they can compete with the, with. With the top nations. They have top players. They've been building for a few years now. I would say, yes, they are probably the strongest in terms of squad in African football at this moment in time. And they're going in there, to be honest, to, to, to win. So for me, I think they would have to come in the top two to give themselves a chance to go as deep into the tournament as possible.
- [33:56]
Lee James
So Morocco and Senegal then perhaps Africa's best hopes. But let's continue down the FIFA rankings where Algeria are in Group J. Just to say all the African nations are in different groups, which is how the draw was made. So Algeria up against the reigning champions, Argentina. Also Austria and Jordan capable of making it difficult, I think it's safe to say, Steven, for, for any opponent there, technical attackers. We mentioned Riad Mahrez continuing to bring that creativity in his experience.
- [34:26]
Stephen Kolka
Yeah, for sure he'll be the, the leader. He's, you know, the biggest name on, on the team sheet there. When you think of Algeria, Mahrez certainly comes to mind. I think it's another, you know, tough group. I'm saying I could say that about every single group. Right. It's a World Cup. You don't get to the World cup and then face easy teams. The idea is that you're facing the best teams in the world. So, you know, Algeria are going to have to compete against Austria for that second place. Jordan are no mugs. That would certainly be a tough game as well. So it is another really tough one. Can they be the reigning champions? I think that might be a step too far. But, but of course, as I said, they've got a second place to aim for and the third place if, if that fails.
- [35:07]
Lee James
And do Egypt fall into the same category? Gabi? They're in Group G with Belgium, Iran and New Zealand in the sense that it's now or never really for Egypt and Mohamed Salah, isn't it? Can they get beyond the group stage for the first time?
- [35:22]
Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, I'm looking at that and I think they can. I think it's. It is sort of now or never, you know, because it's probably Mohamed Salah's last World cup and for me, I think he will be looking to sort of go out on a high as well at the world stage. It seems to always perform when it, when it. There's something on the line and I'm looking at that group and I, I think they will get through that group. You know, they usually are very hyped up before tournaments and then they sort of fail to deliver. But I think this time I think he's, he's got a big point to prove it didn't quite have the season he, he wanted to have at Liverpool and I feel that this is him to show the world that he's still got what it takes. And I think looking at the group, they certainly have the ammunition to go through.
- [36:03]
Lee James
We'll get your predictions just to warn both of you, that is to come. Ivory coast in Group E. They have Germany, Ecuador and Curacao, the smallest nation to ever qualify for a World Cup. Now it feels quite a balanced group. It feels like one where Ivory coast even could make progress here. They've got the physicality, they've got the technical qualities. Though players like Ahmed Diallo could really be a spark for them. What do you think they can achieve?
- [36:31]
Stephen Kolka
Yeah, I think Ivory coast are such a strong nation and for once they're not the ones with the pressure on them. You know, when it comes to afcon, they're off. They're often deemed as one of the favorites and there's a lot of pressure piled on their shoulders. But I feel like they're quietly a dark horse, which seems strange to say for a country of Ivory coast is size and capacity, but it does feel that way. A lot of talk is around Senegal. A lot of talk is on Morocco. I think Ivory coast could surprise a few. And look at the group again. You probably have Germany down there as favorites. Curacao, I've watched quite a bit of their games as one of our players in, in Turkey is, is actually representing them. So I've seen a little bit of them. I would expect Ivory coast to beat them. And then of course it's the battle then between them and Ecuador to see if they can get out the group. But I'm, I'm quietly, quietly thinking that Ivory coast will be the ones that, that do make it out of the group. And I'll give my prediction in a little bit.
- [37:22]
Lee James
Yeah, let's keep that back just for now. What about Tunisia though, Gabby? And Group F with the Netherlands, Japan and Sweden. Now they didn't exactly excel at the last Africa cup of nations earlier this year, so they've changed their coach. Sabri Lamushi has come in. Could they get through though? I mean, we are talking about the best third place teams as well having an opportunity. So what do you think about Tunisia?
- [37:45]
Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, I think it's an uphill battle for them. I think they'll do well to, to get out of there. I think out of the countries I'm seeing that we've listed so far, they're probably the one I least expect to, to do as well as what they possibly could because I'm just not sure if they gelled in time and everything, the cohesion, they haven't done well of late. So it would just be really interesting to see how they've, you know, sort of come together as a team and if the coaches methods have come out to the team. So I think they're the ones who will surprise me if they get out of the group.
- [38:17]
Lee James
Six teams down, four to go, including Ghana. And we're going to hear from the Ghana legend, Michael Essien. Now, he played in the 2006 and 2014 World Cups for his nation, the former Chelsea midfielder in the English Premier League, and he's confident that this team can make progress.
- [38:36]
Michael Essien
I mean, we are expecting them to, to go past the group, group stage, but I mean, it's going to be a very difficult one. They are in a very difficult group. I think they can do it. They should take game by game and make sure they can win them in progress. They've assembled some great players there and so of course, hopefully they can take their disappointment from the last World cup to kind of motivate them to go past their, the group stage. So, yeah, that's all we are hoping for and hopefully they can deliver.
- [39:14]
Lee James
Would you agree that Antoine Semenya is going to be the, the player that stands out for Ghana? Is he the one people back home are putting their, their hopes on after the incredible season he's had?
- [39:24]
Michael Essien
Yeah, I believe so, because as you said, he's had a fantastic season. So, yeah, he's going to be the one everyone will kind of look up to, to push the team, carry the team with him and, and push the team forward. Of course, we've lost Kudus, who is one of our most important players, but I think with the help from the others, they can, they can still do a good job.
- [39:49]
Lee James
That's Ghana's Michael essien with the BBC's Ian Williams. So Ghana then are in group L. We're putting this down as a tough one, I think. England and Croatia and also Panama and Gabi, as Michael was saying there, whether without Mohamed Kouris, who is going to be a big loss for Ghana. A lot will depend on the firepower of Manchester City's Antoine Semenyo and as we've already mentioned, led by a very experienced coach, former Portugal and Iran, Carlos Queros. But again, someone who's come in just on the eve of the tournament.
- [40:23]
Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, again, I'm not sure how much impact that will have, but just being such a big Name will probably give the players a boost, but losing a player like Kudos, especially when it's. When it's gone, they. They really depend on him. You know, anything good that happens going forward in previous matches, it's been all through Kudos. So I think. But, you know, it's not a bad player to. To now depend on Semenya with the season he's had, you know, from Bourne, Murphy carried on at Manchester City, carried on the same level of output. So I think it's. They're going in, to be honest, they're going in. Probably fans not expecting the best because they haven't been in the best form. But I think that freedom and that lack of pressure could be a way to. To get the best out of Ghana.
- [41:06]
Lee James
Can it take a little time to adjust, Stephen, when you have chosen to represent your nation, Anton Semenya has chosen that with. With Ghana. But is someone who has grown up in England, I mean, part of football teams here in England, can it take a bit of adjustment when you now on the international stage?
- [41:22]
Stephen Kolka
I think so. I feel that just adapting to more things off the pitch than on the pitch, you know, just the. The differences there. And there are quite a lot, as we mentioned earlier, when, I mean, Ghana is a. Is a big nation with a lot of money behind it. I'd expect them to be traveling, you know, to a good standard, expect to be good hotels, the preparation to be better. But it still will, of course, be a difference, certainly from. From Man City heading to Ghana. But he's a player that just takes everything in his stride. You know, I thought when he went to Man City in January, could it take him a little bit of time to adapt there? No, it didn't. He hit the ground running and I expect him to do the same with Ghana. I just think there's a lot of weight on his shoulders. I think if I'm looking at Ghana and I'm just looking at recent form, I do struggle to think that Ghana will get out of the group. But, you know, here's the hope that they're my West African brothers. I'm hoping that Semenya and the others can deliver.
- [42:13]
Lee James
And what about Cap Verde then in group H with Spain, Uruguay and Saudi Arabia? Steven, are you going for a surprise or two? They've got absolutely nothing to lose, have they? After qualifying for the World cup for the first time, I think that's a
- [42:26]
Stephen Kolka
great place to be. Absolutely nothing to lose. No pressure on you. Just go there, enjoy, give everything that you've got, which I'm Absolutely sure they will. They've given everything they've got to get to this stage. They're not going to rest up now. I think personally that's a team there that can get out of the group. Of course, it'll be tough, especially playing against Spain. Going to be a real, real test for them, but an unbelievable experience. And I think that actually out of the, let's say, the slightly smaller nations, I would say they're the team for me that will go on and achieve something.
- [42:57]
Lee James
This World cup and where you play your matches can make a big difference as well with the heat and the conditions that teams will experience. Gabby now the Democratic Republic of Congo, then in Group K, Portugal first up in Houston, then Colombia at altitude in Zapapan, in Mexico, Uzbekistan, who are making their debut at the World cup finals in Atlanta. What do you see as the big challenges there then?
- [43:22]
Gabriel Zakuani
I think in terms of when, when it's the weather, there's, there's no, there's no challenge there. I think a lot of the Congolese players are used to. To the heat, especially playing in, in Congo is, is absolutely unbelievable when you play at the standard. Marti, our French, sort of our state, our stadium and it's just the heat there can, can literally take you out on your feet, but that you just perform there because of the crowd. But I'm looking at that. I think it's, it's very doable as, as we've mentioned, the, the group top three can go through. But I think you look at Portugal, a lot of people write us off for that game. But as I said, I don't, I don't think we're in there to just make up the numbers. We just had a friendly a couple days ago against Denmark and to me on chances, we should have won the game. So it shows how far we've come. There's. There's no fear in, in the Congo team and I think that that sort of element of surprise could be what, what undoes teams like Portugal against the drc.
- [44:15]
Lee James
And just on the conditions, though, whilst it may help you, that is could be an advantage. You know, the athleticism, the pace, the physicality that you have in, in your side could disrupt those teams that you're facing. Perhaps look for more possession.
- [44:28]
Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, exactly. It can. And the, also the route that we've taken to, to get to the tournament, I mean, we, we. We had to play the playoff games games in these conditions. So we've had sort of a rehearsal of it against Jamaica to get to the World Cup. In these conditions as well. We had a friendly just before that. Again, in these conditions, we're prepared for this. You know, it's sort of not too dissimilar from what's in Africa already, and we've had the long route of the playoffs to get used to this as well. So I think our players are ready in terms of condition. It's just that if we can adapt to the football and to the quality of a side like Pujo and for
- [45:03]
Lee James
South Africa, Stephen, your tips again. After the opening game against Mexico, now with South Korea and Czechia to come back in the World cup for the first time since they hosted in, in 2010. Are your dark horses once more?
- [45:18]
Stephen Kolka
Yeah, I've got, I've got to stick with them. I'll be turning grave before they actually put it off, but no, I stick with them. I, I still think they're, they're one of, if not the best football inside that I faced in, in African football. And I think that it's just about time that they, they deliver, they play good football. They've got a lot. I think a big advantage for South Africa is a lot of their players play at home in their country. They used to play with each other. They got that familiarity amongst their squad. I think that South Africa for me, will get out of the group. I'm gonna put my neck on the line and say that. But of course, you go against South Korea, who are always really well organized, work extremely hard. I played them back in the day in the Olympics, the 2012 Olympics, and just such a really well organized side. South African has to be prepared for that. Mexico again, who expect to maybe top the group, and then Czechia, who also tough competition. So they're in a really tough group, South Africa, but I'm expecting them to, to finally show what they're, what they're capable of.
- [46:12]
Lee James
This is the moment then, both of you. We've got 10 African nations. First of all, how many of these 10 are getting out of the group? Gabby, I know you're going to at least say one of them for the drc. How many do you think, though?
- [46:26]
Gabriel Zakuani
I think out of the 10, I'm going for half of them. You know, I'm going for five. I think, I think I can see the DRC getting through, and I don't think I, I'm allowed to say anything else, but I genuinely do believe DRC will get through. I think Senegal, Morocco will certainly get through. And I think, you know what, Cape Verde, I think, I think are the, the dark horse because not many sides expect. I think that that's element of surprise will be telling and I'm just undecided about Ghana and Ivory coast, but I would say I'll be coast to get through as well.
- [46:58]
Lee James
How many are you going for, Stephen? Out of the 10 to get through the group stage?
- [47:02]
Stephen Kolka
I was going to say six, but I don't want to upset Gabby so I'll go with seven. I think the three that are going to struggle for me are Tunisia. I think they will struggle this one. I do believe that Ghana will struggle and I think that Algeria will struggle. So out of the 10 teams, I want to say those three may struggle the most.
- [47:24]
Lee James
And how far do you think an African team can go at this World Cup? Steven, what are we looking at? Can it match a semi final? Can it go even further?
- [47:33]
Stephen Kolka
I would love for it to happen, I really, really would. And as I've mentioned a couple of times, I do believe if there is going to be a team to do it, it'll be Senegal. I just think it might be a, a bit too much to ask when I'm looking at some of the teams. I think once I have now this, this in front of me and I'm looking at the teams, I'm looking, I'm saying can, you know, Senegal go and beat the likes of Argentina, which you're going to have to beat at some point if you're looking to win the World Cup. Are they going to go and be a Portugal, etc? So I don't know. I would say a semi final would be, would be my opinion, but I would love to be wrong and, and for one of them to go not just to the final but to go on and win it.
- [48:08]
Lee James
Well, Spain, Argentina, France, England are the seeded team to reach a semi final. So someone has got to beat one of them along the way. Could be an African nation. Gabby, do you think what's possible?
- [48:18]
Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, I think I'd go again with Senegal. I just can't see past them when it comes to the African countries and you know, they've proven they can beat England already, you know, so they've got that sort of firepower and that balance in quality to get as far as they can. But it's just in terms of now it's the World cup, it's a totally different thing. It's the pressure of it as well to perform. First option has to be to get through the group and then anything can happen in the one off games, you know. So I do see Senegal, Morocco being the obvious choices to get as far as possible and a semi would be great and then anything can happen.
- [48:52]
Lee James
And just finally, then we ask the question, when will an African nation win the World cup if not this time? When? Steven it's coming.
- [49:01]
Stephen Kolka
I truly believe it's coming. I think, you know, the last 45 minutes of conversation reflects that. I think we're seeing growth, we're seeing the infrastructure are building and building and building. We're seeing talented players now coming and choosing to play for the African nations. Semenya being a great example of that. I think if it's not this year, I do think within the next two World Cups we will see an African nation lift it.
- [49:22]
Lee James
Gabby.
- [49:22]
Gabriel Zakuani
Yeah, I, I go along with that. I would have said give, give another two World Cups and then start catching up and bridging the gap in terms of just facilities and everything that goes with it. So I would say that this, this will open up a lot more. I think we saw Morocco the last time now I think there'll be two or three involved in, in getting as far as possible and then you give it a couple more World Cups. I think once the infrastructure catches up, there can be an African team to win it.
- [49:47]
Lee James
We will see. Could it happen this time around in New Jersey for the final of the World Cup 2026. Steven Kolker, Gabriel Zacuani, thank you both very much.
- [49:56]
Stephen Kolka
Thank you. Absolutely.
- [49:57]
Lee James
And that's all from More Than the Score for today. Thanks to Gabriel Zacuani and Stephen Kolker for joining us. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to follow and subscribe to More Than the Score. We also love hearing your thoughts on the stories we cover. You can email morethescorebc.co.uk or visit bbcworldservice.com morethanthescore to find out how to contact us via WhatsApp. But until next time from me, Lee James, it's goodbye for now.
- [50:27]
Valerie Sanderson
Hello, it's Valerie Sanderson from the Global News podcast Again. I hope you enjoyed this bonus episode. To hear more stories from the World cup and beyond, search for More Than the Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
- [50:43]
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