UK defence secretary resigns over military spending

Summary

Global News Podcast (BBC World Service)

Episode Date: June 11, 2026

Host: Charlotte Gallagher

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on breaking news from the UK, with the dramatic resignation of Defence Secretary John Healey over military spending. The episode also covers escalating tensions between the US and Iran, Pope Leo’s visit to the Canary Islands in support of migrants, the opening of the FIFA World Cup in Mexico City, Australia’s new inquiry into cold cases, why people instinctively walk anticlockwise, and a best-selling Danish book inspired by butterflies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. UK Defence Secretary Resignation: A Political Crisis

(01:53 - 05:30)

• Main Story: UK Defence Secretary John Healey resigns over concerns that Prime Minister Keir Starmer’s government is underfunding defense, risking national security.
  • Healey’s resignation letter criticizes the government for failing “to provide the money the nation needs to defend itself.”
  • He warns:

    “I am being forced to make decisions that would reduce the readiness of our forces and increase the risk to personnel on operations and could make the country less safe.”
    (John Healey’s letter, quoted by Rob Watson, 02:20)

• Rob Watson (BBC Political Correspondent) provides context:
  • This resignation is “profoundly wounding” given Healey’s long-standing loyalty to Labour and his deep involvement in shaping defence policy.
  • The situation comes after notable political blows for Starmer’s Labour Party in elections and a recent diplomatic scandal.
  • The UK’s Strategic Defence Review highlighted chronic underinvestment, with calls for increased spending to maintain NATO commitments and address lapses in military readiness.

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2. Escalating US-Iran Hostilities & Uncertain Ceasefire

(05:30 - 08:15)

• Background: After recent US airstrikes on Iranian targets and Iran’s retaliatory missile attacks, the already fragile US-Iran ceasefire is “practically meaningless.”
• Sebastian Usher (BBC Middle East Analyst):
  • The conflict hasn’t fully reignited but the ceasefire is being stretched:

    “It’s a ceasefire just in terms that there are still limits on how far either side is going... It gives that sense that the strategy is going up a dial each day.” (06:18)

  • There’s talk of a possible peace deal reportedly brokered by Qatar, but chronic sticking points remain, especially with ongoing fighting in Lebanon:

    “It’s just how much appetite both sides have for playing this game of brinkmanship now.” (07:41)

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3. Pope Leo’s Visit to the Canary Islands: A Plea on Migration

(08:15 - 12:19)

• Pope’s Mission: Meeting migrants who survived dangerous Atlantic crossings to Spain and honoring those who died.
  • Pope calls for “legal and safe pathways” for migration and condemns inaction:

    “Every boat that arrives brings a question along with the migrants. What kind of world have we built if so many brothers and sisters must risk death to seek life?” (Pope Leo, 08:51)

• Sarah Rainsford (Correspondent):
  • Shares stories from migrants, e.g., 19-year-old Bukhari’s harrowing seven-day journey.
  • Notes that even non-Christian migrants see the Pope as a crucial moral authority.
  • Discusses Spain’s controversial policy to legalize undocumented migrants, with up to a million people potentially affected. This is met with opposition from conservative and far-right parties, fearing a further “pull factor” for migration.

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4. World Cup Kick-Off in Renovated Mexico City Stadium Amid Protests

(12:19 - 16:26)

• Opening Match: Mexico (host) vs. South Africa at the Azteca Stadium in Mexico City.
• Stadium Renovation: $100 million spent; seats and facilities upgraded. Will Grant describes it as “breathtaking... one of the finest stadiums in the Americas.”
• Protests:
  • Human rights groups highlight the ongoing crisis of disappearances (over 130,000 in Mexico’s drug war) with highly visible protests scheduled throughout the tournament.
  • Protest leader Mar Guerrero states:

    “The idea is to continue with these protests throughout the World Cup... for maximum visibility while the eyes of the world are on this stadium.” (12:48)

• Iconic History: Recollection of Maradona’s ‘Hand of God’ goal at the Azteca (15:34), adding gravitas and nostalgia to the stadium’s reopening.
• Pride and Anticipation:

  “It’s the pride of being a very small part of a very big team that will deliver one of the biggest spectacles in the history of the world.”
  (Felix Aguirre, stadium director, via Will Grant, 15:43)

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5. Australia's Inquiry into Cold Cases and Police Accountability

(19:21 - 22:24)

• Background: New inquiry investigates unsolved murders and disappearances spanning six decades, catalyzed by longstanding family frustration.
• Cheryl Grimmer’s Case:
  • Her brother, Ricky Nash, highlights decades of pain due to police failures:

    “For more than 50 years, our family have lived with the consequences of failures that denied our little sister Cheryl the dignity that she deserved and denied us the truth we should have been given in 1971.” (19:48)

• Broader Implications:
  • Police failings cited repeatedly by family members, with many cases possibly linked to serial killer Ivan Milat.
  • The inquiry, led by MP Jeremy Buckingham, will run for several months and examine potential police shortcomings across numerous cases.

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6. Why Do People Walk Anticlockwise? New Research Insights

(22:24 - 23:43)

• Findings: Across cultures (European, Japanese), the majority naturally turn left or anticlockwise when entering open spaces.
• Dr. Claudio Feliciani (University of Tokyo):
  • Trend is consistent across handedness and age:

    “People in general... have a tendency to move to the left direction, which is like innate... With kids that are like five years old, they also turn to the left side.” (23:04)

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7. Butterfly Quest: An Unlikely Bestseller from Denmark

(23:43 - 27:33)

• Lea Korsgaard’s Book, The Butterfly Season: Bestseller chronicling her quest to spot all 64 Danish butterfly species.
  • Motivation was driven by an “intuitive” feeling and the symbolic status of butterflies as emblems of transformation and hope:

    “The butterfly has told humans a very specific story throughout time. A story about transformation, the hope for rebirth, the hope for light to conquer darkness.” (24:42)

  • Her journey shifts from checklisting to a spiritual inquiry:

    “What started out as an exercise in discovery really turned out to become a reckoning with all these big, big questions that you can’t help but ask yourself.”
    (Lea Korsgaard, 26:28)

  • She deliberately leaves one butterfly species, the Grizzled Skipper, unseen to preserve a sense of wonder:

    “I don’t want this adventurous scavenger hunt to end... It was, in the end, a project about understanding what we’re part of...” (26:59)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On National Security:

  “To accuse the Prime Minister of essentially putting the country's troops and security at risk is about as serious a charge as it gets.”
  (Rob Watson, 02:20)

• On Migration:

  “History will condemn leaders who yield to indifference and allow migrants to suffer.” (Pope Leo, 08:15)

• On Protest and Football Intersection:

  “Mexico World Champions in disappearances,” spray-painted on the street by protesters drawing attention to human rights issues during the World Cup. (12:48)

• On the Butterfly Quest:

  “In the end, this was not about me getting check marks... it was about understanding what we’re part of... it is, in a sense, holy.”
  (Lea Korsgaard, 26:59)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• UK Defence Secretary Resignation & Analysis: 01:53 – 05:30
• US-Iran Ceasefire Situation: 05:30 – 08:15
• Pope Leo, Migrants, and Spanish Politics: 08:15 – 12:19
• World Cup: Renovation, Protests, Opening Scene: 12:19 – 16:26
• Australia Cold Case Inquiry: 19:21 – 22:24
• Why Do People Walk Anticlockwise?: 22:24 – 23:43
• Lea Korsgaard’s Butterfly Journey: 23:43 – 27:33

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Summary

This episode of the Global News Podcast weaves together urgent political drama in the UK, geopolitical strife in the Middle East, the Pope’s moral plea on migration, simmering social tensions in Mexico on the eve of the World Cup, a reckoning with institutional failures in Australia, and fresh scientific and cultural insights. It balances hard news (defense, diplomacy, justice) with a human focus—on migrants, missing persons, and the renewal offered by nature’s butterflies—while keeping a lively, accessible tone throughout.

Transcript

[Will Grant]

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[Charlotte Gallagher]

This is the Global News podcast from the BBC World Service. I'm Charlotte Gallagher and at 15 hours GMT on Thursday 11 June, these are our main stories. The UK's defence secretary resigns, saying a plan put forward by Keir Starmer could make the country less safe. Iran says the ceasefire with the US is now practically meaningless. Is there any hope for an imminent peace deal? Also in this podcast we take you behind the scenes as the World cup is about to kick off.

[Will Grant]

It is resplendent. It is amazing. It looks completely ready. The pitch is pristine. The seats are incredible.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

We begin in Britain where the man in charge of the country's defense has announced his sudden resignation. From the In a letter to the Prime Minister, John Healey said he was proud of what the Labour government had achieved in the past two years in terms of defence commitments. But the Prime Minister and the treasury had failed to provide the money the nation needs to defend itself. Our UK political correspondent Rob Watson told me why John Healey is resigning now.

[Rob Watson]

We're expecting the government to announce what it is prepared to spend on defense in the coming days and he clearly thinks it's not enough. And I should say, Charlotte, I mean this is a profound, yet another profound political crisis for Britain and for its Prime Minister. And I've seen a lot of resignation letters in my time, Charlotte, but this one is one of the most damning I think I've seen. And I'm just going to read you a bit of the final paragraph. From John Healey to the Prime Minister, he says, you know what defense needs. You made the argument for this powerfully in your speech at the Munich Security Conference in February. He says, without a defence and investment plan that meets the moment in this way, I. I am being forced to make decisions that would reduce the readiness of our forces and increase the risk to personnel on operations and could make the country less safe. End of letter. I mean, to accuse the Prime Minister of essentially putting the country's troops and security at risk is about as serious a charge as it gets.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

I mean, we've talked a lot in the past about Keir Starmer having bad days, but as you said, surely this has got to be one of his worst.

[Rob Watson]

Absolutely. I mean, he's been reeling from the blows that the governing Labour Party suffered at the hands of voters at local elections back in May and in elections to the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments. And of course, his reputation has taken a massive hit over the fallout from appointing Peter Mandelson, friend of Jeffrey Epstein, as British Ambassador to Washington. But this is about the defense of the realm, and I think most people would accept that, you know, if the government has one profound responsibility, it is to the security of its troops and the security of nations. And so for John Healey, who I should sort of fill in a bit of background here, is a sort of Labour loyalist. He has been the spokesman for Labour on defence for six years. He's been at Keir Starmer's side even when Labour were in opposition, talking about defence. So for him to stick the knife in like this is profoundly wounding.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

And what sort of state is defence like in Britain at the moment?

[Rob Watson]

Well, this is why this is such a big issue. And to sort of zoom out a bit, last year, the government published something called a Strategic Defence Review, looking at, you know, what is Britain's role in the world in terms of defence and security. And it had basically said it should have the ambition Britain to be a leading member of NATO and to play a profound role in Europe's security. But the review noted that Britain's capabilities had been massively run down, that there was a totally parlous army, navy, air force because of decades of underinvestment after the Cold War, and was basically saying, you're going to have to spend a lot of money if Britain wants to be a big player. Money on drones, on unmanned vehicles, and that it is a very serious enterprise. And quite clearly what has happened is that John Healey, the Defense Secretary, now gone, has basically said, look here, you know, you promised you recognized what a challenge this was. How much money was going to be spent. But we can see now that the money isn't going to be there, or at least not the money that Mr. Healey and the defense industry and the armed forces would have liked.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

Rob Watson, to the war in the Middle east now and Iran says its ceasefire with the US Is now practically meaningless. Following a second night of airstrikes, the US Military Central Command released a video of its assault on Iranian targets. The sound of Tomahawk cruise missiles being launched. Iran retaliated by firing missiles at what it said were US Military targets across nearby Arab countries. President Trump has posted on social media that he was ordering his military later today to hit Iran again very hard. The BBC's Middle east analyst Sebastian Usher in Jerusalem gave his assessment of the state of the ceasefire to Tim Franks.

[Sebastian Usher]

I think it's a ceasefire just in terms that there are still limits on how far either side is going in the way they're hitting each other. There are certain things which are off limits at the moment. So it's not an all out conflict. And what we've been hearing from various US Officials about this is that the Washington President Trump is still trying to keep two separate tracks going, one still about negotiations, potentially a deal perhaps, but at the same time, now moving back to the military pressure, US Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said essentially this is almost negotiating with bonds now going on what President Trump has just issued. I mean, it gives that sense that the strategy is going up a dial each day at the moment. So he's had two days of strikes. Now he's saying that it will be in capitals very hard tonight. So, you know, one would expect that it will be bigger, but it still won't, as far as President Trump is concerned, be a declaration that the war is back on.

[Tim Franks]

But at the same time, people, and not just President Trump who's been saying we're terribly close to a deal. You know, there are apparently well briefed people who are saying the Qataris have managed to broker some sort of deal. The text is there and all the rest of it. What do you make of those comments?

[Sebastian Usher]

I mean, we have been hearing that now, of course, Tim, for a long time. I mean, the Qataris have said that before, the Pakistanis have said that. I mean, those are the two main mediators. And there were, from all reports we've had, there were long negotiations that went on in Tehran between mediators and Iranians on all of that. But you know, the main sticking points are still there and the Lebanon war, the Israeli war in Lebanon we've seen in the past week has become one of those main sticking points, and that certainly isn't stopping. So I don't think there's a huge amount of hope. It's just how much appetite both sides have for playing this game of brinkmanship now.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

Sebastian Usher speaking to Tim Franks. Pope Leo is in the Canary Islands today, where he's meeting migrants who survived the dangerous Atlantic crossing to reach Spanish territory. And he's been paying tribute to those who never made it. Last year, around 1,200 people died or went missing on the route, which is one of the deadliest journeys into Europe. The Pope has urged countries to create legal and safe pathways for migration and warned that history would condemn leaders who yield to indifference and allow migrants to suffer.

[Will Grant]

It is not enough to manage arrivals, distribute statistics, reinforce borders, or lament deaths after they've occurred. Every boat that arrives brings a question along with the migrants. What kind of world have we built if so many brothers and sisters must risk death to seek life?

[Charlotte Gallagher]

Our correspondent Sarah Rainsford spoke to us from the Canary Islands.

[Sarah Rainsford]

He arrived this morning to Gran Canaria, and he's going to be spending a day here and a day in Tenerife. And his whole focus, really, while he's here is on migration. So the Canary Islands are a really important point on the migration path, particularly from West Africa to Europe. This is the southernmost tip of. Of Europe, It's Spanish territory, and it's somewhere that thousands and thousands of people who have made an extremely dangerous journey across the Atlantic have tried to reach. And so the Pope essentially has come here to meet some of those migrants, some of the people who have survived the cross crossing and have ended up here in Spain, in the Canary Islands. But also to remember the people who lost their lives trying, it is really difficult. We've spoken personally to two young men who've made the crossing. One man told me he's 19 years old. He told me it took him seven days to get to the Canary Islands. He said it was terrifying. He talked about running out of water, running out of food, and then ultimately the boat itself running out of food, fuel. So basically being stranded after he finally saw the shores of one of the Canary Islands and the boat then had to be rescued. So extremely difficult. And the Pope wants to put those human stories back at the heart of the conversation, essentially about migration.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

And what were those migrants that you spoke to, hoping that the Pope's visit would do for them?

[Sarah Rainsford]

One of them told me his name was Bukhari. He told me he wanted the Pope to understand his pain. That's what he was looking for. Remember that, that I guess the vast majority of the people that we've met and many of the people crossing are not Catholics, they're not Christians, they're often Muslim. So for them this is not a church leader. But they know it's a person who is of extreme importance to many in the world and they see him as a moral authority in that sense and they wanted him and they were happy for him to be here, to be recognizing them, as he puts it, as the Pope has put it it today, as individuals as not just numbers as he said.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

How politically controversial is this part of the visit? Because I know people were surprised earlier in the visit when the leader of the right wing VOX party gave the Pope a standing ovation. And obviously the Pope as you said, is very pro humane migration.

[Sarah Rainsford]

There are obviously huge differences of opinion on migration and how to handle it across Europe, but also in Spain itself. The socialist government though has started a process which is controversial here in the country, but is unique I guess in Europe because they are now offering people who are undocumented here in the country to legalize their status, to get all the documents that they need to be able to reside here legally and to work. And that could mean up to a million people become formally residents in Spain. Now lots of people see that as a humanitarian gesture. That's certainly how the government is presenting it. But yes, far right parties and the conservative PP as well are very critical of that, saying it will be an extra pull, an extra attraction for migrants.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

Sarah Rainsford reporting. After a long build up, the World cup is finally kicking off in Mexico City with the co host Mexico taking on South Africa in the opening game at the Azteca Stadium. The stadium is one of the most iconic in world football and has been through a massive multi million dollar renovation over the past two years. To get it ready, Mexico correspondent Will Grant was given a look behind the scenes.

[Will Grant]

Perhaps the biggest challenge facing fans with tickets to the opening match will be simply getting there. Mexico City's traffic is notoriously bad and in the current climate of anti World cup protests, some are worried they might not get in. Outside the Azteca Stadium, a group demonstration demonstrating over the disappearance of more than 130,000 people in Mexico's drug war played a game of street football under a bridge. They'd spray painted the words Mexico World Champions in disappearances on the road while others painted over World cup billboards calling for a boycott of the tournament. The idea is to continue with these protests throughout The World cup, said one of the organizers, Mar Guerrero, for maximum visibility while the eyes of the world are on this stadium. Once inside the stadium though, the focus turns to football. So there we have it, into the stadium. The iconic Azteca stadium has undergone a major renovation over the past two years, with the Mexican bank having acquired the naming rights with a loan of around $100 million. I was taken on a tour with the Azteca's director, Felix Aguirre, who led us into the belly of the stadium. What we are seeing here and what we are going to walk around is a player's path. He explained that the players tunnel is adorned with a mural by Mexican artist Jose no Esuaro, capturing some of the Azteca's most historic footballing moments. On the other side, a glass fronted hospitality area so fans who can afford it can watch the players as they move between the pitch and the changing rooms. So inside the Mexico changing room it is all branded with the Mexican flag and FIFA World Cup 2026 feels quite a privilege to be here with just quite frankly hours to go until the team come in. FIFA don't have anything considered away or home changing rock rooms. There are basically two that are identical, but of course this one is Mexico's. It is beautifully done actually. Leather seats in each place and within a matter of hours the players will be in here getting themselves ready for in some of their cases, the biggest match of their lives. Wow, amazing. Well, I've just walked up the steps out into the stadium and it is breathtaking. Genuinely one of the finest stadiums in the Americas, no doubt about it, one of the finest stadiums in the world. This of course was the site of the Ano de Dios, the hand of God in that incredible goal that Maradona scored against England shortly thereafter.

[Rob Watson]

Inside Butcher leaves him for dead.

[Will Grant]

Outside, Fenic leaves him for dead and

[Rob Watson]

puts the ball away. And that is why Maradona is the greatest player in the world.

[Will Grant]

He buried the English defence, The stadium's director, Felix Aguirre said with hours to go until kickoff, his overriding sensation is one of pride. It's the pride of being a very small part of a very big team that will deliver one of the biggest spectacles in the history of the world. It is resplendent, it is amazing. It looks completely ready. The pitch is pristine, the seats are incredible. The positioning, you know, the, the layout so that everybody gets a decent view. Seems really well designed. All that's left now of course is 22 players, 80 odd thousand fans and

[Charlotte Gallagher]

a ball that was will grant reporting and we have more on the World cup and the controversies that have surrounded it on our YouTube channel. Search for BBC News on YouTube and you'll find the Global News Podcast in the podcast section. There's a available every weekday. Still to come in this podcast, what

[Lea Korsgaard]

started out as a like an exercise in discovery really turned out to become a reckoning with all these big, big questions that you can't help but ask yourself.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

We hear about one woman's mission to spot every butterfly species in Denmark and what she discovered along the way.

[Sarah Rainsford]

Foreign.

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[Charlotte Gallagher]

This is the global news podcast. A new inquiry is underway in Australia focusing on unsolved murder cases and disappearances over the past six decades. One of the most high profile cases is that of 3 year old Cheryl Grimmer who went missing on Fairy Meadow beach in New South Wales. Her brother Ricky Nash has been pushing for answers ever since and took part in a BBC documentary about the case.

[Ricky Nash]

For more than 50 years, our family have lived with the consequences of failures. Failures that denied our little sister Cheryl

[Sarah Rainsford]

the dignity that she deserved and denied

[Ricky Nash]

us the truth we should have been given in 1971. Today is not just about grief, it's about accountability.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

Our Australia correspondent Katie Watson has been following the inquiry.

[Katie Watson]

The disappearance of Cheryl Gremmer is just one of dozens of cases being looked at. It was a parliamentary inquiry that was brought about with the support of the New South Wales MP Jeremy Buckingham, who's been really, really supportive of the family of Cheryl Grimmer and has been backing their case. So we heard from Ricky Nash earlier in the day. He spoke about the impact, talked about the fact that Cheryl was not a case file, she was a bubbly little girl, that if the police had done their job, the family would have known the truth years ago. And that was an accusation that was echoed by some, several other families at the inquiry. But yeah, this is quite a wide ranging inquiry looking at, you know, long term missing and, and unsolved murders in

[Charlotte Gallagher]

New South Wales and they're also going to be looking at potential failings by the police as well.

[Katie Watson]

Yeah, so that's something that certainly the three families that were speaking today on the first day of the hearings, you know, they all brought that out that if they wouldn't be sitting in that room if it wasn't for the failings of the police. There were two other families as, as the family of Cheryl Grimmer. There was the twin brother of Kay Doherty who was 15 when she disappeared. He talked about the fact that his parents had died with broken hearts as well as another woman, Karen Rowland, who died, she was five months pregnant when she disappeared. So yeah, they all share this view that they were failed by police. They didn't look at their cases in enough depth and that's why they were there.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

And there's a particular notorious serial killer that some families are asking to be further investigated.

[Katie Watson]

Yeah, so the two cases I just mentioned, Kay Docherty and Karen Rowland. They are just some of the probably more than dozen cases that are also being considered for their links to one of Australia's most notorious serial killers, Ivan Milat. Now, he murdered at least seven backpackers, including two British women, between 1989 and 1992. But there is evidence that he may have killed more people. And several of those cases are being discussed in this inquiry, which will continue for the next few months.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

That was Katie Watson. Now ask yourself, when you're heading for a walk around a park, a museum or even an empty room, would you start by walking in a clockwise direction or anti clockwise? Well, an international study says it's extremely likely you would naturally choose to turn left and walk anticlockwise. Researchers in Spain noticed the trend during an earlier study linked to social distancing during the COVID pandemic. They thought it might be something to do with the habits of people in Europe. But the experiment was then repeated treated in Japan with the same results. So why does this happen? Here's Dr. Claudio Feliciani from the University of Tokyo.

[Ricky Nash]

We don't know why, but we know that is very fundamental. So we had experiments in Japan, we had experiments in Spain. We tried to get people that are left handed, people that are right handed. So we tried many different conditions and every time if you took like a population of 65% of them, they will move to the, to the left direction. So people in general, they have a tendency to move to the left direction, which is like innate. So they're born in that way. This was also the case with children. With kids that are like five years old, they also turn to the left side. So we didn't know why, but we know that can be found everywhere in people from young to old and depending on the country.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

Finally, publishers are always looking for the next best seller and sometimes it comes from an unlikely place. In Denmark last year, that book was about butterflies. The Butterfly Season by the Danish journalist and author Lea Korsgaard became a number one hit and has now been published in English. It follows Lea's attempt to spot all 64 species of butterfly found in Denmark over the course of a single summer. My colleague Tim Franks asked her how she first came up with the idea.

[Lea Korsgaard]

I couldn't tell why. When the idea started simmering in the back of my head just kept popping up. A voice within me saying, you should go see all the, the Danish butterfly species within a single year, even though you don't know nothing about butterflies. So it became a quest to find out what is it that is calling

[Tim Franks]

the Book makes the point that butterflies had meant something to you beforehand, that butterflies had sort of appeared at important moments in your life.

[Lea Korsgaard]

I think that I'm on sort of an intuitive level, understood that the butterfly has told humans a very specific story throughout time. A story about transformation, the hope for rebirth, the hope for light to conquer darkness. Right. That's really the story of the butterfly. That's sort of the cultural history of the butterfly throughout times. My mom feels a specific relationship to a butterfly. She feels that her mom comes back whenever she sees a small tortoise shell. It's almost like a human mythology around butterflies.

[Tim Franks]

The thing about a hunt for 64 species of butterflies, you're looking for something very concrete.

[Lea Korsgaard]

Yeah, it was very specific, tangible. But what started out as a. Like an exercise and discovery really turned out to become a reckoning with all these big, big questions that you can't help but ask yourself when you're in a meadow or in a deep forest, you know?

[Tim Franks]

Yes. You might sort of strike out into a lovely, flowery meadow and think, well, I'll probably see some butterflies here. But you must have had more of

[Lea Korsgaard]

a plan not to begin with. Well, I did make a list and had some kind of order and structure. But I very soon found out that if you go to, for instance, the northern part of Denmark, North Jutland, to see North Jutlandic butterflies, they will not appear just because you are there. You have to be way more specific and disciplined than that. But once I learned that, and I learned it from just excellent experts that I had to call and ask them for sound advice, then the project really evolved into these, like, phenomenal experiences of, whoa, this is all right here in my own country.

[Tim Franks]

Did you have to learn how to look?

[Lea Korsgaard]

Yeah, I'm a fast walker, so I really had to learn to walk extremely slowly, like a cat.

[Tim Franks]

I'm not going to say exactly how many species you did end up being able to see, but there was one that you decided not to see, I think, in the end. Why was that?

[Lea Korsgaard]

Yeah, in the very end, on my way home from another journey to the northern part of the country, I could just, I thought, make it and see the Gristle Skipper.

[Tim Franks]

The Grizzled Skipper.

[Lea Korsgaard]

Gristle Skipper?

[Sarah Rainsford]

Yeah.

[Lea Korsgaard]

But then I decided, nah, I shouldn't. I don't want to see it. I don't want this adventurous scavenger hunt to end. I just want to let it be unseen by me until maybe I am 100 years old. Also, because in the end, this was not about me getting check marks on all my pieces. It was, in the end, a project about understanding what we're part of and also understanding that it is, in a sense, holy what we're part of. And so the Gristle Skippers should stay a mystery for me.

[Charlotte Gallagher]

That was the Danish journalist and author Lea Kosgaard. And that's all from us for now. If you want to get in touch, you can email us at globalpodcastbc.co.uk. you can also find us on XBCWorldService. Use the hashtag globalnewspod. And don't forget our sister podcast, the Global Story. This edition of the Global News Podcast was mixed by Abby Wiltshire and the producers were Carla Conti and Steven Jensen. The editor is Karen Martin. I'm Charlotte Gallagher. Until next time. Goodbye.

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