Jeffrey Epstein, Howard Lutnick, and the disgraced former prince

Summary

Global News Podcast — “Jeffrey Epstein, Howard Lutnick, and the Disgraced Former Prince”

Host: Tristan Redmond (BBC World Service)
Guest: Andy Verity, BBC Financial Investigations Correspondent
Date: July 19, 2026

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Overview

This episode presents an exclusive BBC investigation revealing new links between U.S. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick and the convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, with further involvement of Prince Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, the disgraced former prince. Central to the revelations is whistleblower Simon Andrews, a former BGC Partners employee, who unearthed evidence suggesting Lutnick failed to disclose a substantial business relationship with Epstein and explored a prospective deal with Prince Andrew. The episode examines both the details of these relationships and the personal costs for whistleblowers who attempt to expose them.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Whistleblower: Simon Andrews' Story

Timestamps: 04:11–07:52

• Simon Andrews is a former City of London trader, now living in Cornwall, recovering after ten years of whistleblowing and ensuing trauma.
  • “I'm a big ocean swimmer. Yeah, I do a lot of ocean swimming. It's been great for the mental health.” (Simon Andrews, 04:55)
• He suffered severe health impacts—flashbacks, seizures, and even a heart attack—attributed to retaliation after raising concerns about "false accounting" at BGC Partners (owned by Howard Lutnick).
  • “I would have flashbacks... called dissociative seizures, where I was developing, like, a head movement, like your head shaking.” (Simon Andrews, 05:11)
  • “Retaliation for what?” / “For my whistleblowing.” (Andy Verity & Simon Andrews, 05:33–05:34)
• After being dismissed in 2017, Simon sought further evidence regarding BGC, Lutnick, and their connections to Epstein and other high-profile individuals.

2. The Lutnick-Epstein Relationship: Timeline and Discoveries

Timestamps: 09:31–14:46

• Howard Lutnick became known for rebuilding Cantor Fitzgerald after 9/11 and later founded BGC Partners.
• Publicly, Lutnick acknowledged only minimal contact with Epstein, claiming he had “never been in the same room” with him after a single 2005 encounter as neighbors.
  • “I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again.” (Howard Lutnick, 12:09)
• The Epstein files, released in early 2026, included photos of Lutnick on Epstein’s private island in December 2012 and evidence of more extensive interactions.
  • “A photo emerged showing Howard Lutnick looking very summery on the island with Jeffrey Epstein and his son.” (Andy Verity, 13:13)
• Lutnick’s public statements (to Congress and media) about limited contact were contradicted by emails and documentation of ongoing business ties.

3. Unveiling the Business Link: The Adfin Affair

Timestamps: 16:35–20:00

• Simon Andrews, scouring the Epstein files, uncovered:
  • Emails showing Lutnick and Epstein discussing Adfin, an ad-tech startup they were co-investors in, with Lutnick actively updating Epstein about business prospects as late as 2018.
  • A signed investment agreement from December 2012 listing both as investors.
• These findings contradict Lutnick’s Congressional testimony, in which he claimed he was unaware of Epstein’s involvement in Adfin until 2026.
  • “If Howard Lutnick had been unaware that Jeffrey Epstein was an investor in this company... then wouldn't he have said, oh, Jeffrey, I didn't know you were also an investor in Adfin. But he doesn't say anything like that.” (Andy Verity, 17:57)

4. Prince Andrew: The 'Buy-a-Prince' Scheme

Timestamps: 21:35–25:46

• Simon Andrews discovered a trove of documents detailing a proposed deal: Lutnick would lend Prince Andrew £1 million for exclusivity in bringing wealthy contacts to Cantor Fitzgerald for investment management—a move likened to “buying a prince.”
  • “In Simon Andrews' words, they would buy a prince for a million pounds.” (Andy Verity, 23:45)
• Documents show Epstein—through Andrew's business advisor David Stern—acting as a behind-the-scenes mentor on the deal, even years after Andrew claimed to have cut contact with Epstein (last seen, per Andrew, in December 2010).
  • Epstein “was still in touch with [Andrew] indirectly through Andrew's business advisor, David Stern, who described Epstein as his mentor.” (Andy Verity, 24:20)
• Cantor Fitzgerald asserts no business was finalized. Andrew has not responded to BBC requests for comment.

5. The Stakes: Why these Revelations Matter

Timestamps: 25:46–26:48

• Lutnick’s apparent misrepresentation of facts to Congress is significant for both legal and moral reasons.
  • “Presidential administrations are supposed to be honest with Congress and with the wider public. So that matters.” (Andy Verity, 25:51)
• The story exposes the continued influence of Epstein after his conviction and the ease with which high-status figures mix public and private enrichment.
• The case highlights both the importance—and the personal toll—of whistleblowing.

6. The Human Cost: Impact on Simon Andrews

Timestamps: 26:32–28:15

• The investigation deeply affected Simon Andrews’s career, finances, mental and physical health.
  • “I had a mental health crisis, the trauma was so bad. Dysregulation, activation, flashback. It was out of control.” (Simon Andrews, 26:55)
  • “He now feels he is [better]. But whether or not this story tells you a good thing about trying to blow the whistle, you'll have to decide when you listen to it.” (Andy Verity, 28:15)
• Despite winning whistleblower recognition and seeing BGC Partners fined, Andrews remains burdened by debts and the legacy of his battle.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I unequivocally condemn the conduct attributed to Jeffrey Epstein and everyone who participated in his illegal activities. The survivors of his crimes deserve our respect and support.” — Howard Lutnick to House Oversight and Reform Committee (18:31)
• “If Howard Lutnick had been unaware that Jeffrey Epstein was an investor in this company... then wouldn't he have said, oh, Jeffrey, I didn't know you were also an investor in Adfin. But he doesn't say anything like that.” — Andy Verity (17:57)
• “In Simon Andrews' words, they would buy a prince for a million pounds.” — Andy Verity (23:45)
• “It matters because he's supposed to tell the truth in public and to Congress.” — Andy Verity (25:51)
• “He got a whistleblower award in the United States, action was taken, fines were levied against BGC and he was officially recognised as a whistleblower.” — Andy Verity (27:37)
• “I went into a trauma crisis center for two months and did a huge amount of work on myself. And was able to get myself into trauma recovery.” — Simon Andrews (27:57)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:09–01:57: Context for episode and earlier World Cup coverage
• 04:11–07:52: Simon Andrews’ background and whistleblowing ordeal
• 09:31–14:46: Howard Lutnick’s rise and alleged Epstein ties
• 16:35–20:00: Discovery of Adfin emails contradicting Lutnick’s denials
• 21:35–25:46: Proposed deal between Lutnick and Prince Andrew, Epstein’s continuing influence
• 26:55–28:15: The personal toll of whistleblowing on Simon Andrews

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Summary & Takeaway

The episode delivers a gripping account of how power, secrecy, and personal courage intersect in global finance and politics. It sheds light on the enduring connections between Jeffrey Epstein and some of the most elite circles in America and Britain. Through detailed investigation and the perseverance of Simon Andrews, the BBC uncovers evidence that challenges public statements and raises uncomfortable questions about accountability at the highest levels. The episode is as much about the intricacies of high finance as it is about the resilience and cost of standing up to wrongdoing.

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For further detail, listen to the full episode or follow the BBC’s ongoing investigative reports.

Transcript

[Andy Verity]

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[Tristan Redmond]

Hi there, it's Tristan Redmond, one of the hosts of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. And as a bonus for your feed, we're bringing you one of our best episodes of the week. Months on from the release of the Epstein files, it turns out there were still more revelations to come. In this episode we heard about a whistleblower who unearthed new evidence suggesting that the US Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick found failed to disclose a business relationship with the pedophile financier Jeffrey Epstein. The story was part of an exclusive BBC investigation and if you find this interesting, then every weekday we tell one story where the world in America meet. This week we also heard from the US Broadcaster Roger Bennett, host of the Men in Blazers soccer podcast, about how this World cup has changed America.

[Andy Verity]

I have not slept thinking about 39 days, but we'll sleep after the final. And to see this nation come alive in a way I think America really needed in this moment and to make memories along the way has been really profound. Yeah, but I'm barely standing up right now.

[Tristan Redmond]

You can find that and much more by searching for the Global Story wherever you get your podcasts. Now onto the show. Back In February, the BBC's Andy Verity was was at his desk combing through millions of newly released documents.

[Andy Verity]

When the Epstein files came out, I, like others was tasked with going through these files and I spotted something rather familiar when I searched for Lutnick and

[Tristan Redmond]

he was looking for any files that referenced the U.S. commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick

[Andy Verity]

When I searched for Lutnick, more than 250 documents come up. He's in the files more than 250 times.

[Tristan Redmond]

And.

[Andy Verity]

And going through all of those, I came across one which was a record of an interview that was given to the FBI. And I looked at the allegations, and they sounded strangely familiar. I've been hearing them for years.

[Tristan Redmond]

He spotted the name of one of his sources.

[Andy Verity]

I realized that actually what I'd been hearing from the whistleblower had real substance to it. Then we found out something more involving not just Lutnick, not just Epstein, but also our very own Andrew Mountbatten Windsor.

[Tristan Redmond]

In an exclusive BBC investigation, a whistleblower gives his first interview revealing how he unearthed evidence suggesting that Howard Lutnick failed to disclose a business relationship with dead pedophile financier Jeffrey Epstein. From the BBC, I'm Tristan Redmond in London. And today on the Global Story, Howard Lutnick, Jeffrey Epstein, and the disgraced former prince. Andy Verity, financial investigations correspondent with the BBC. Great to have you back on the show.

[Andy Verity]

Good to be here.

[Tristan Redmond]

How did you hear about this story?

[Andy Verity]

Well, it's one of those stories where you've been thinking of doing it for years and years, but it's not quite there. So a man named Simon Andrews, who's at the center of our story, he's a British whistleblower. We've just walked down a narrow path over a dune to be confronted by a spectacular site here in Morgan Porth on the north coast of Cornwall, the Atlantic. So why did you come to Cornwall, son Andy?

[Simon Andrews]

Well, this is a place my wife and I always used to come down to.

[Andy Verity]

He now lives in Cornwall in South West England. In South West England.

[Simon Andrews]

I'm a big ocean swimmer. Yeah, I do a lot of ocean swimming. It's been great for the mental health,

[Andy Verity]

where he's recuperating because of a traumatic 10 years trying to expose malpractice and misconduct at his former employer.

[Simon Andrews]

I would have flashbacks to incidents that had happened in the past called dissociative seizures, where I was developing, like a head movement, like your head shaking.

[Andy Verity]

And what have the doctors told you about what's caused that?

[Simon Andrews]

That's due to the intense ordeal I've been through. I would say the retaliation that I've endured for 10 years.

[Andy Verity]

Retaliation for what?

[Simon Andrews]

For my whistleblowing.

[Andy Verity]

I've been talking to him for five years. He was introduced to me by a colleague in 2021 and told me things he knew about Howard Lutnick and Jeffrey Epstein and the royals and of course I was interested, but I also didn't feel it was quite there in terms of the levels of proof we needed in order to show any links. But this year with the Epstein files, all that changed. So I went back to him. I said, did you know you're in the Epstein files? It turns out that an interview he gave to the FBI in 2020 and 21, where he was making some of these allegations, was also in the Epstein files and his name had been unredacted. So he was there against his wishes. So I thought, well, if his name's out there anyway now, no point staying anonymous, and convinced him to give us an interview.

[Tristan Redmond]

So you went to meet this whistleblower, Simon Andries. What can you tell us about him?

[Andy Verity]

Well, he's 57 years old. He grew up in a working class house with not much money. But then in the late 80s, he started going to the City of London, the financial district, and he did well. He rose in his career. He had a very successful, lucrative career where he was first at the Japanese bank Nomura and then went on to BGC Partners, which is owned or was owned by President Trump's Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick. But he found himself when he moved from the bank to this firm of brokers owned and controlled by Howard Lutnick, in a very different working atmosphere. He described to me how when someone did their first trade, arranged their first trade, the brokers would bang their phones. They would bang their phones until they ran round the trading floor and then they'd be doused with water. And it's a very macho atmosphere as well on this trading floor, according to him. He also starts to hear about what he calls false accounting. The firm would deny it. Money is charged to his desk's broken commission pool, the pool of money that goes towards their bonuses and their pay, which he thinks is improperly charged. He starts to try to raise this internally, concerned about false accounting, not least because he has the responsibility to sign off the accounts. And then he doesn't get a satisfactory response. And at the same time, he's under huge pressure.

[Simon Andrews]

I have a chest pain, my arm goes numb. And then I'm like in a panic. I have to walk to the Gold Street Hospital down in Wall Street. It's about five minutes walk and I collapse on the pavement. I get brought into the er, the

[Andy Verity]

A and E. He has a heart attack.

[Simon Andrews]

The cardiologist suddenly goes, there's a blood clot and it's like emergency stations taken into an operating theater. They're shaving Me, suddenly they're taking the blood clot out of my heart.

[Andy Verity]

And he subsequently his condition deteriorates. And in spite of that, he says he was put under pressure when he was in hospital, for example, to attend a video conference when he was in no state to cause. He was in the middle of an emergency and a dispute broke out.

[Simon Andrews]

I'm in the A and E. He's sending me messages for not turning up to a video conference or which had been scheduled while I was in the emergency.

[Andy Verity]

The firm says he didn't carry out his responsibilities. He says it was whistleblower retaliation and they sacked him in January 2017. So since then he's been in dispute with them and looking for any further information he can find. Bgc, as I say, denies and allegations, but that put him on a collision course with them. They say his allegations are categorically false and that they've been investigated by authorities and in their view, they lack credibility.

[Tristan Redmond]

Okay, so at this point in our story, Simon has left the company. Howard Lutnick, who runs the whole operation at this point, is moving towards a career in politics. Who is he and what's he up to at this point?

[Andy Verity]

Howard Lutnick came from a working class New York background and joined a firm called Cantor Fitzgerald way back in the late 80s, one of the best known Wall street firms. And in the late 90s, he took control of it. And in 2004, he founded BGC Partners. But what he's best known for, Howard Lutnick, is September 11, 2001, because Cancer Fitzgerald occupied a couple of floors right at the top of one of the twin towers. And of course, at 8:46am on September 11, a plane crashed in. As it happened, Howard Lutnick was not at the tower at that time because he'd been dropping off his son at kindergarten in New York. Though he's fated by President Trump and others as a 911 hero, he rebuilt the firm in spite of losing his brother and his best friend. And that's, in a way, the first thing you know about Howard Lutnick before

[Tristan Redmond]

the Epstein files are actually released. How much do we know about the alleged links between Mr. Lutnick and Mr. Epstein?

[Andy Verity]

What we did know is that they both knew Trump. So Epstein knew Trump and Lutnick knew Trump. They were both in New York. They were in that scene of wealthy people and billionaires who, who knew each other at celebrity events, et cetera, et cetera. And then after Trump's first term, when he started to think about running again, and when he succeeded in getting into office, Howard Lutnick took charge of his transition team. Trump then promotes him to become his trade secretary. So for most people around the world, they'll know him as the man who imposed tariffs on the rest of the world.

[Tristan Redmond]

Jeffrey Epstein and Howard Lutnick, correct me if I'm wrong, are actually neighbors at one point. Is that right?

[Andy Verity]

That's right. Anybody could look it up and discover that actually, that Howard Lutnick lived at one house and they shared a wall. And he's admitted this publicly to the New York Post in a Pod Force one podcast in October 2025. Now, his story in October 2025 was that he'd gone round once. He'd only ever seen Jeffrey Epstein once in 2005, and he'd had a little tour of the house with his wife. He says that he was shown a massage table and that Jeffrey Epstein made an inappropriate comment.

[Howard Lutnick]

I say to him, massage table in the middle of your house? How often you have a massage? And he says, every day. And then he, like, gets, like, weirdly close to me.

[Advertisement Voice]

Oh.

[Howard Lutnick]

And he says, and the right kind of massage.

[Andy Verity]

And Howard Lutnick's initial account is that he then looked at his wife and they said, we're leaving pretty soon.

[Howard Lutnick]

And in the six or eight steps it takes to get from his house to my house, my wife and I decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again.

[Andy Verity]

None of us knew that until very recently, though. All you saw on the public record before he gave that interview was the fact that they had been neighbors in New York and they both knew Trump.

[Tristan Redmond]

Okay, so that happens. In 2005, it said that they then cut off contact. But then in February of this year, there's this bombshell with the release of the Epstein files. Now, I remember Howard Lutnick's name coming up in them at the time. Appearing in the files is not an implication of any wrongdoing. But can you remind us what the files actually said about those links with Epstein?

[Andy Verity]

Well, what emerged in the files was evidence that appeared to contradict the accounts he'd given in public to the New York Post. What we learned in February then was that there was evidence that he'd been to Jeffrey Epstein's island. Just around Christmas 2012, a photo emerged showing Howard Lutnick looking very summery on the island with Jeffrey Epstein and his son. Now, that photo was actually taken down, initially withdrawn from release, but Internet sleuths had spotted it and screenshotted it and circulated it on social media. And so it had to be re released. Did you in fact make the visit to Jeffrey Epstein's private island?

[Howard Lutnick]

I did have lunch with him as I was on a boat going across on a family vacation.

[Andy Verity]

So just after that photo emerged in the Epstein files, Howard Lutnick appeared at a committee hearing where he was asked about his links to Epstein. He confirmed he'd visited the island with his family.

[Howard Lutnick]

I met Jeffrey Epstein when he moved. When I moved to a house next door to him in New York. Right. And I met him then over the next 14 years, I met him two other times that I can recall. Two times.

[Andy Verity]

But apart from that meeting at the house in 2005 when they were neighbors and the two visits after that, Lutning was saying after that point, he had very little to do with Epstein over

[Howard Lutnick]

a 14 year period. I did not have any relationship with him. I barely had anything to do with that person.

[Andy Verity]

And this is where my whistleblower Simon discovers that wasn't the end of the story.

[Tristan Redmond]

Okay, so February 2026, the massive trove of Epstein files have been released. How do you realize that you have a new lead on the story at this point?

[Andy Verity]

Well, it was all a race because all the media outlets were trying to find things out. And I'm an investigations correspondent, so of course I spent inordinate amounts of time searching the U.S. department of Justice's Epstein library, which now had millions of documents on it. And then I saw my whistleblower's name, Andries, and I knew he'd spoken to the FBI. This was clearly a record of the time that he did. In fact, he had two times when he spoke to them, or maybe three in 2020 and 2021. And these showed him making allegations about Howard Lutnick and his closeness to Epstein and the Royals.

[Tristan Redmond]

Okay, so you find Simon Andrish name in the Epstein files, you reach out to him, what happened next?

[Andy Verity]

I said, you'd never guess what you're in the Epstein files.

[Simon Andrews]

Yeah, you were the first person to tell me that I was in the Epstein files, which I was completely, you know, I was just completely shocked about.

[Andy Verity]

He was like stunned and took a while to take it in and then started delving through the Epstein files himself.

[Simon Andrews]

Everyone was searching Lutnick. Howard Lutnick had a particular email, which was hwl.

[Andy Verity]

He knew because he'd worked there that senior people at BGC used their initials on their emails. So he searched under hwl, Howard William Lutnick, and found material that no one else had found and sent it to Congress. And that's what changed the game for him?

[Tristan Redmond]

What did he find?

[Andy Verity]

So there's several dimensions. One is that we already knew that there was evidence that what he'd said about not seeing Jeffrey Epstein After 2005, not being in the room with him, was at the very least misleading because we saw the pictures of him on Jeffrey Epstein's island in 2012 that came out in February. But then emails emerged spotted by our whistleblower that showed that actually there was a message to Jeff from Howard setting up the meeting. And then subsequently it emerged that on 28th December 2012, an agreement with that date on it was drawn up for a company, an advertising technology company called Adfin. And investors in that company signed on the document were both Jeffrey Epstein and Howard Lutnick.

[Tristan Redmond]

Okay, so just to be absolutely clear, Howard Lutnick says that he cuts off contact with Jeffrey Epstein in 2005. Subsequently, there is evidence that they are still in contact. How has he addressed and explained the fact that they are still in contact? It would appear, whether or not they're having lunch on an island in the Caribbean or they're exchanging emails about a company called Adfin. How does he justify all that?

[Andy Verity]

Well, he's asked in Congress in May when he knew that Jeffrey Epstein was also an investor in this Adfin company. He said, not until this year 2026. But this other email under HWL, which Simon Andries discovered, shows he's discussing Adfin directly with Epstein in May 2018, which would appear to contradict its account. Here's the exact quotes. In May 2018, Epstein asks, on another note, what do you think the prospects for Adfin are Now? If Howard Lutnick had been unaware that Jeffrey Epstein was an investor in this company, which he had also invested in, then wouldn't he have said, oh, Jeffrey, I didn't know you were also an investor in Adfin. But he doesn't say anything like that. In this email exchange, he answers, producing revenue. Finally, this is their year. Next 12 months, they need to become economically self sufficient. You see elsewhere in the files the chief executive of Advin seeking meetings with both Lutnick and Epstein. Altogether, this evidence is one of the reasons why Democrats on the House Oversight Committee have accused Lutnick of lying and have been calling for his resignation. We should make it clear that Howard Lutnick has not been accused of any wrongdoing in connection with Epstein. And he told the House Oversight and Reform Committee, quote, I unequivocally condemn the conduct attributed to Jeffrey Epstein and everyone who participated in his illegal activities. The survivors of his crimes deserve our respect and support. The White House, speaking on behalf of Lutnick, said quotes the BBC's pathetic and desperate attempt to slander Secretary Lutnick will do nothing to change the fact that it has been the most consequential Commerce Secretary in modern history.

[Tristan Redmond]

But if their names were both on the same document to do with an investment in this company, Adfin, does that mean that they were together in the same place signing this document?

[Andy Verity]

Not necessarily. But what you do know then is that they were discussing ADFIN in 2018, eight years before, as Lutnick claimed to Congress, he knew that Epstein was an investor. Ten years after Epstein was convicted of sex offenses and let's see, 13 years after, according to Lutnick's account, he resolved with his wife never to be in the room with that disgusting person ever again. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now. I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back.

[Howard Lutnick]

So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it

[Andy Verity]

turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial.

[Howard Lutnick]

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[Tristan Redmond]

After unearthing the emails about this business relationship, Andy's whistleblower Simon Andries continued to dig through the Epstein files.

[Andy Verity]

He started sending stuff to me which kept on making my jaw hit the floor. He found a story that links Howard Lutnick and Andrew Mountbatten Windsor in a proposed business deal that in the background Jeffrey Epstein was advising Andrew Mountbatten Windsor's advisors all about. Let me tell you more. Howard Lutnick was approached by a lawyer in London who had an idea for how Howard Lutnick might lend Andrew Mountbatten Windsor £1,000,000. And in exchange, they would enter a joint venture whereby Andrew would bring his contacts. So rich individuals, sovereign institutions, sovereign wealth funds, all those people he'd met on his travels in his previous role as trade envoy and in his role as a royal as well. So he knew lots of people we know. He knew, for example, oligarchs in Kazakhstan. We know. He knew lots of people in Eurasia. He knew people in Africa, wealthy individuals. You get to meet lots of rich, powerful people when you're on tour as a British royal. The deal was that, in Simon Andrew's words, they would buy a prince for a million pounds. There was a document setting out terms of the deal, and the idea was Andrew would bring clients with pots of money and then they put them into investment management and split the fees 50, 50. But there was a little kink in the deal, which was that Andrew wouldn't be able to do business with anybody else. He'd have to bring all the business to Canter Fitzgerald, Howard Lutnick's firm. So a man who's described by Andrew as his business brain, his name's David Stern. He describes Jeffrey Epstein as his mentor. He decided to ask Jeffrey Epstein about this deal that was being offered to Andrew that would bind him into exclusivity. Jeffrey Epstein says no exclusivity. The documents show that they held talks for three months about this deal, but the documents peter out in late 2013, early 2014. According to Cantor Fitzgerald, they never went into business with Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, but they don't deny that they did talk about it for three months. So it's a matter for speculation as to why it stopped. But we did email Andrew Mountbatten Windsor inviting him to comment on the allegations, but we haven't heard back from him.

[Tristan Redmond]

Help us understand, Andy, why do you think this Andrew detail is so important?

[Andy Verity]

Well, because of what it says about Howard Lutnick wanting to do the deal with Andrew, lending him a million pounds suggests why did Andrew need a million pounds at that point. And it also sheds light on the continued contact, even if it was only indirect, between Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and Epstein. Long after Andrew said he last saw him, he was still in touch with him indirectly through Andrew's business advisor, David Stern, who described Epstein as his mentor. And we see Epstein advising on a deal that Andrew's going to do with Howard Lutnick, now the US Commerce Secretary, to essentially buy a prince, in our whistleblower's words, for a million pounds, and in exchange exploit Andrew's contacts. So there are questions There which touch on issues about mixing up your public role and your desire to make money privately.

[Tristan Redmond]

And the links between Andrew and Epstein persisting. A couple of years after Andrew said he cut off all contact.

[Andy Verity]

Yeah. So the last date he said that he'd seen Epstein was December 2010 and said he cut off all contact. We already knew 2011, some contact then. Now we see 2013 that Epstein is advising Andrew on a business deal.

[Tristan Redmond]

What about Lotnik? Why would it matter if he misrepresented his relationship with Epstein?

[Andy Verity]

It matters because he's supposed to tell the truth in public and to Congress. And it may sound old fashioned, but presidential administrations are supposed to be honest with Congress and with the wider public. So that matters. It matters because it sheds light on the circles of wealth and power that surrounded Jeffrey Epstein. It sheds light on what happens to whistleblowers when they go up against a powerful, wealthy company, whether they're believed and whether they can find justice. And it also matters because of what it shows about the public debate about whether people were too close to Jeffrey Epstein and who those people were.

[Tristan Redmond]

And what about Simon Andrish, the whistleblower? How's this all affected him? I mean, when you tell this story, it's difficult not to think of the contentious circumstances in which he left his employer, bgc, and how that all must weigh on him now.

[Andy Verity]

It's had a devastating effect. He's lost his career, he's lost his. His health.

[Simon Andrews]

I had a mental health crisis, the trauma was so bad. Dysregulation, activation, flashback. It was out of control.

[Andy Verity]

He's had repeated heart episodes and he says they've retaliated against him as recently as 2024. They would deny that, of course. And BGC would say this is an unreliable, inherently unreliable source who's got an axe to grind. BGC says it terminated Simon's employment after he refused to follow medical advice, declined to perform essential job duties, rejected reasonable accommodations and ultimately abandoned his role. That's what they say, but the truth is that anybody who's been in employment litigation has an axe to grind, both employee and employer. They both have narratives that they would prefer and would like the evidence to support their narrative. He got a whistleblower award in the United States, action was taken, fines were levied against BGC and he was officially recognised as a whistleblower because they have strong laws that recognise people should be incentivized to blow the whistle on wrongdoing.

[Simon Andrews]

I went into a trauma crisis center for two months and did a huge amount of work on myself. And was able to get myself into trauma recovery.

[Andy Verity]

He's lost his career on Wall street and he's struggling with debts from legal costs of this ongoing struggle he's had. And his physical and mental health has taken a real toll, which he's had to do lots of work, going to trauma recovery centers, et cetera, to try to get better. He now feels he is. But whether or not this story tells you a good thing about trying to blow the whistle, you'll have to decide when you listen to it.

[Tristan Redmond]

Thank you so much, Andy Verity, for sharing it all with us.

[Andy Verity]

You're welcome.

[Tristan Redmond]

That was andy Verity, the BBC's financial investigations correspondent. And you can hear more of Andy's Investigation on file on 4 Investigates. Just search for it wherever you listen. And that's it from us for today. Our email, as always, theglobalstorybc.com Please get in touch. We love hearing from you. Today's episode was produced by Sam Chandrasak and Zandra Ellen. It was edited by James Shield. Our digital producer is Tom Bage. Our studio managers are Roan Madison and Phil Bull. Our senior news editor is China Collins. And I'm Tristan Redmond. We'll be back again tomorrow. See you then. Cheerio.

[Andy Verity]

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[Simon Andrews]

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