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- [00:00]
Alex Ritson
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
Jackie Leonard
Hello, Jackie Leonard here from the Global News Podcast. Did you know there is an easy way to get new episodes automatically? Whether it's the Global News Podcast or indeed any of your other favourite BBC World Service podcasts, just find the show on your podcast app and then just click Follow or Subscribe. And if you switch on notifications, you'll get a reminder too. It's that easy. Follow or subscribe and never miss an episode.
- [00:33]
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- [01:05]
Alex Ritson
This is the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service. I'm Alex Ritson and this is a special edition recorded at 0600 GMT on Sunday 8th December to mark the historic events unfolding in Syria after more than half a century. The Assad era appears to be over. Hafiz al Assad became president of Syria in 1971 under the Ba'ath Party. His son Bashar took power after his death in the year 2000. In the last few hours, he's widely believed to have fled the country by plane en route to an unknown destination. Islamist rebels say they're now in control of the capital city, Damascus, and are at the time of recording, preparing to broadcast on state tv. We'll get the very latest from our correspondents who'll be assessed what all this means for the people of Syria and for President Assad's former international allies, including Russia and Iran. After almost a quarter of a century in power and almost 14 years of civil war, Bashar al Assad appears to have been driven from power. Rebel forces are saying that they've captured the capital, Damascus. The group leading the insurgency, Hayat Tahrir al Sham, or hts, has also said President Assad has fled the country. Celebrations erupted in Damascus early on Sunday morning. Gunfire was heard as people took to the streets. A statement issued by the rebels said, we declare Damascus free of the tyrant Assad. The Syrian Prime Minister, Mohammad Ghazi al Jalali, in a recorded video message announced he was ready to work on a transition of power.
- [03:01]
Frank Gardner
Any leadership chosen by the Syrian people were ready to cooperate with it providing all possible facilities to ensure a smooth transfer of various government files.
- [03:11]
Alex Ritson
Late on Saturday, HTS announced they'd taken full control of the key city of Homs, which is about 140 kilometres north of the capital. I spoke to Mohammed Taha from BBC Arabic and, and asked him what we know about the reports that Bashar Al Assad has fled Syria.
- [03:28]
Mohammed Taha
What we understand that he left the capital airport to unknown destination. So what we know that his family left Damascus to United Arab Emirates so he might be likely to follow them or to go to Russia or Iran as these two countries are their main allies.
- [03:51]
Alex Ritson
And this is now confirmed or just.
- [03:53]
Mohammed Taha
Reports we can confirm that because the Syrian Prime Minister issued a video talking about that he's ready to cooperate with any other force that is chosen by the Syrian people that is insinuating that Assad is not in Damascus anymore.
- [04:13]
Alex Ritson
So this is a historic day. This is the end of a long era indeed.
- [04:17]
Mohammed Taha
Al Assad family ruled Syria for more than half a century and it was a controversial ruling as there are many people suffered from what they can call it atrocities or oppression for a very long time. It is a moving situation in the Middle east. Is returning us back to the scenes where we saw the early days of the Arab Spring, where the Tunisian president left the country, the Egyptian president was put in court. So it is returning the region back to this, what so called the Arab Spring or the Arab uprising. But it is happening now in Syria after more than 14 years of fighting between the military opposition and the Syrian government.
- [05:08]
Alex Ritson
And presumably it was the speed of the rebel advance that eventually made up his mind because we've had reports for some hours of the rebels actually being in Damascus.
- [05:17]
Mohammed Taha
Of course what happened was really speedy advance to the opposition, the militant opposition. What we understand that the Assad government was relying five years ago on their allies like Hezbollah, Iran or Russia. Now Russia is very busy with Ukraine and they redeployed already their forces in Syria, meaning that they were not willing really to fight for the Assad regime anymore. Iran is very exhausted with the war between Hezbollah and Israel and also the exchange between Iran and Israel. And apparently Iran is not able to protect this regime anymore. And apparently the main players now in Syria are Turkey, the United States and Israel. And Russia is trying to keep afoot. But will they be able to do that?
- [06:15]
Alex Ritson
Tell us more about this prison that the rebels say they've seized.
- [06:19]
Mohammed Taha
What's happening whenever the Syrian opposition go to any city, this is what they did in Hama, in Aleppo, in Hinds, whenever they Go to a city, they free the prisoners, believing that most of these prisoners are political prisoners and they have to be freed. So this is the scene that we saw everywhere. It's a show that they are in power. They can free the prisoners. Now, what we are expecting to see, as there are reports that they managed to control the official tv, what will be their first statement on that official tv? Who is going to deliver that statement and what is the main message and.
- [07:05]
Alex Ritson
What'S life going to be like for the people of Syria in the days ahead?
- [07:09]
Mohammed Taha
There is a kind of uncertainty on the ground at the moment. People. We saw images that people are happy because there were, as I said, many people. They consider they suffered from dictatorship, atrocities. There are lots of grievances within this society. But at the same time, we can see a return back of an Islamist ruling in Syria, which is. Everybody's looking at it with kind of worry. If you have in the Middle East a regime that is similar to Taliban, a regime that has got some fighters that were affiliated to Daesh or the what so called the Islamic State, what kind of regime that would be. We saw Mohammad Al Jilani, the leader of the main opposition group, appearing in a very prestigious American TV channel, talking about statesmen. And we didn't see any atrocities being committed when they entered Aleppo or Hama or Homs. So to what extent these forces are reinventing themselves, producing themselves as they might be different forces than the Islamist militant or Islamist radical forces that we saw before. It is an uncertain moment for the Syrian people. It is a mixed feeling moment for these people who are hoping for peace, hoping for a better future.
- [08:45]
Alex Ritson
Mohammad Taha from BBC Arabic of the many different and often opposed rebel groups in Syria, HTS is the 1 spearheading this lightning offensive. Security correspondent Frank Gardner told me more about them and what could lie ahead for Syria.
- [09:02]
Frank Gardner
Hts, which is the Hayat Tahrir al Sham, the lead rebel force, are still a prescribed terrorist organization. Now, if they do what they say they're going to do, which is to rule fairly for all Syrians and not persecute minorities, then I think in time they will get that terrorist designation dropped in New York by the UN Security Council. But if they do what the Taliban did in Afghanistan and promise to rule nicely and then didn't and persecute women and basically push the country back to a dark age, which is what they've done there in Afghanistan, then I think the future is going to be very bleak for Syria. The big unknown is what is Russia going to do? Because you've got this meeting that they've had in Doha. You've got Sergey Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, saying, we will do whatever it takes to help to combat this terrorist organization, because, of course, they are losing their protege here, Bashar Al Assad. So Russia stands to lose, potentially, its airbase at Al Khamene and its seaport at Tartus. This is not good for Russia. And remember that Syria is quite a. You know, it's a cosmopolitan country in the sense that you've got Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims, Christians, Druze, Kurds and even a small Jewish minority. And I think there will be a lot of fear now amongst the Alawites, that is the Shia Alawites who come from the northwest, which is where Bashar Al Assad's family come from. They have tended to be loyal to the Al Assad regime. He's been a kind of reluctant leader. Now, Turkey, which has backed the rebels, the Islamist rebels, said, look, you missed your chance. We offered you a political way out of this. We offered you some kind of a compromise, and you, the Assad regime didn't want to hear about it.
- [10:59]
Alex Ritson
As we've already said, bad news for Russia. How bad is this for the West?
- [11:04]
Frank Gardner
Well, this is not the West's fight. This is Russia and Iran's problem. And Hezbollah, they backed this regime. This is their problem. Well, it's Syria's problem, but as outsiders, it says, and Turkey, actually, because they've backed the rebels, they are going to have to sort this out. The west does have some stake in the game in that. There is a small contingent of just under 1,000 US Special Forces and a support unit at a base called a Tanf, which is right down on the border between Syria, close to the borders with Syria, Jordan and Iraq. They're there to keep an eye on isis. And there is still a risk that if chaos ensues in Syria, ISIS will try and take advantage of this. It will try and break out of areas and try and be resurgent. And remember, there are thousands of prisoners being held in Al Khol camp and to a less extent, in our camp, guarded by Syrian Kurds. If they come under pressure from Turkey. In what follows, there is a risk they could break out.
- [12:05]
Alex Ritson
Our security correspondent, Frank Gardner. This is a special edition of the Global News podcast on the day a revolution appears to be underway in Syria. Our chief international correspondent, Lis Doucette is in Qatar, where Arab foreign ministers have been in emergency talks with their Iranian, Russian and Turkish counterparts at the Doha Forum. Lis spoke to us just before we.
- [12:34]
Lise Doucet
Recorded this podcast, I'm in Doha, where most of the diplomacy this 11th hour, desperate, deeply worrying diplomacy on behalf of the regional powers, including the major powers involved in Syria, has been happening. And even in the early hours of this morning, where the Iranians, the Russians, the Turks, the three major powers who have long been engaged in Syria, they were holding talks with Arab foreign ministers who flew in as well as the UN special envoy. And even in the middle of the night, they were still saying, well, there's still a chance, there's still a chance to find a negotiated way out of this, still a chance to avoid bloodshed. We're sending messages to the rebels. But even the UN special envoy for Syria, via Pedersen, told me it would be nothing short of a miracle, as he put it, that they would be able to convince the rebels when they are sensing victory. And within hours, we are now hearing the scenes of celebrations in the center of Damascus. The rebels are saying they are in the capital. We still don't have confirmation about the whereabouts of President Assad. Again, in the early hours of the morning here in Doha, they were still saying, still asking, will President Assad go down fighting or will he take one of the offers to flee? His family has already been flown out to the United Arab Emirates. He could go to Russia, he could go to Iran. But there was a question about how he would want this to end. It's been an absolutely extraordinary moment in the Middle east in recent months. We keep mentioning how things are unprecedented, but this is one of the most unprecedented of all. I spent a lot of time in Syria after the peaceful protest of 2011, which then gave way to a full blown, absolutely blistering war which has left large parts of many Syrian cities in absolute ruin. And the question had always been, the call had always been that President Assad must go. President Assad will go. And now you can see on social media the eruption of joy among the many who have suffered, suffered terribly at the hands of President Assad's government.
- [15:05]
Lucy Gray
A joy that that government seems to have ended. But I suppose the question remains of what a new government would look like, and particularly under this hts, this Islamist group who has been, in terms of their rule in Idlib, for example, has been authoritarian. We've heard of human rights abuses, accusations. What could the future look like in the near term?
- [15:29]
Lise Doucet
That is the big question this hour, and I think no one can say for certain exactly what it will look like in this moment. The immediate concern is that Syria is plunged into even more bloodshed and chaos as One group of rebels has been advancing from the south. Another, as you mentioned, the Hayatar Al Sham, who cut its ties many years ago to Al Qaeda in order to present itself as a nationalist movement, not a global jihadist movement. But the concerns persist about what kind of rule they would want. They've been trying to reassure Syrians, trying to reassure the outside world for many, many years. Jelani, who was the head of the commander of the HTS forces, has been on a charm offensive. I know many Western officials who've gone to see him, who've talked to his people as he tries to tell them, we are Syrian, this is how we want to rule. But one person here in Doha who has had dealings with him said the concern is less about him, although there are still questions about what would happen once in power. But those around him who may not see the situation as he does, as he tries, as he has been the face of the movement, their regional countries are very, very concerned about very conservative Islamist militants, jihadi organization coming to power in Syria. So these are really big, big questions now. And I was asking here last night, what about Foreign Minister Lavrov of Russia's statement here in Doha yesterday saying it is inadmissible for as he put a terrorist to control Syria. But again, the UN Special Envoy for Syria said to me, well, there's a new reality on the ground and we have to have a new understanding.
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Lucy Gray
Yeah. And the concern will be obviously for the people of Syria. Can you just explain what their situation is for? For so many of them relying on humanitarian aid already anyway, Syria used to.
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Lise Doucet
Be, before the uprisings which began in 2011, was regarded as a middle income Arab state. It was self sufficient in food. In fact, it exported food. It was self sufficient in areas like pharmaceuticals, it was regarded as a cultural capital. But it had always been under the very, very iron fist and oppressive rule, the denial of democratic freedoms of the Assad family. First, President Hafez Bal Assad, who was then succeeded by his son Bashar Al Assad, who when he first came into power after his father's death, he, it was believed he perhaps could rule differently. He turned out to rule with an even harder hand than his father. And the one thing which has characterized his approach to the demands of his own people, which in 2011, they weren't even calling for him to go, they were calling for more democracy. But when he absolutely refused to budge an inch, they hardened their demands. And to this day, 14 years on, he has never ever moved an inch in trying to respond to the needs of his people, calls for greater democracy, calls for justice, calls for accountability. Syria When I call Syrian friends in recent years, the question always is, do you have electricity? How was the situation? Do you have enough money? Syria Although there is still, you can see on social media, vibrant those who have benefited from President Assad. Jerulin he does have his supporters. There's a lively club scene, then art scene taking off. You see, there's two different Damascusists. But the broad majority of Syrians are living in poverty. And the greatest pain, one of the greatest pains of all is those whose countless people, whose families have disappeared into the black hole of Syrian prisons. They don't know if they're dead or alive. And today many are asking, as the prison's doors are flung open, whether their loved ones are going to come out. There have been many efforts to try to bring President Assad to justice. There are said to be tons of evidence of his, his personal responsibility, the responsibility of those around him. But no. But while some members of his government have been brought to have been brought to trial, he has managed, at least until now, to avoid justice. And of course, we should emphasize we still don't know his whereabouts. We don't know exactly what is happening with the people around him. There's been a message from his prime minister saying he's still in his office. There are reports that President Assad has flown out, but this is actually a pivotal moment for millions of Syrians, for those who support President Assad and they've been dwindling numbers, for those who have suffered at his hands and for an entire region which knows that what happens in Syria doesn't stay in Syria.
- [20:40]
Alex Ritson
Lise Doucet speaking to Lucy Gray. And that's all from us for now, but the Global News Podcast will be back later. This edition was mixed by Jack Wilfrin and the producers were Ed Horton, Shirley Gordon, Daniel Mann and Paddy Maguire. The editor is Karen Martin. I'm Alex Ritz. And until next time, goodbye.
- [21:11]
Jackie Leonard
Hello. Jackie Leonard here from the Global News Podcast. Did you know there is an easy way to get new episodes automatically? Whether it's the Global News Podcast or indeed any of your other favourite BBC World Service podcasts. Just find the show on your podcast app and then just click Follow or Subscribe. And if you switch on notifications, you'll get a reminder too. It's that easy. Follow or subscribe and never miss an episode.