Fury after Trump's 'insult' to NATO troops

Summary

Global News Podcast — Fury after Trump’s 'Insult' to NATO Troops

BBC World Service | Host: Ankar Desai | January 23, 2026

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Main Theme

This episode dives into global reactions after US President Donald Trump’s controversial comments regarding NATO’s role in Afghanistan, explores the grave energy situation in war-torn Ukraine, discusses the fate of Nelson Mandela memorabilia, reviews a major change at Heathrow Airport, addresses the global underfunding of women’s health, and debates whether novelists should ever retire.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s NATO Comments Ignite Outrage

[01:05–07:08]

• Context: At the World Economic Forum in Davos, President Trump told Fox News that NATO allies “avoided the frontline” in Afghanistan, implying the US bore most of the risk and effort.
• British Response: Immediate and strong condemnation from British politicians and the public.
  • Official Downing Street statement: “The President was wrong to diminish the role of NATO troops. We are incredibly proud of our armed forces; their service and sacrifice will never be forgotten.” (Damien Gramaticus, [04:07])
  • UK and Canada accounted for about a third of NATO deaths in Afghanistan.
• Personal Impact:
  • Diane Dernie, mother of severely-injured British paratrooper Ben Parkinson, called Trump’s remarks “hurtful” and “absolutely disgraceful.”
  • Quote: “To have that then negated by somebody who neither — neither they nor their family have ever served on the front line... is absolutely disgraceful.” — Diane Dernie ([03:36])
• NATO’s Actual Role:
  • Defence correspondent Jonathan Beale refuted Trump’s claim:
    “They were on the front line because they were in Helmand Province for about eight years. That is the most dangerous territory in Afghanistan... British troops would go out on patrol on ground that was infested with IEDs, roadside bombs, not sure whether they’d come back.” ([04:44])
  • Many British/Canadian soldiers lost lives or sustained grave injuries.
• White House Reaction: US Deputy Press Secretary maintained Trump’s view, emphasizing America’s disproportionate contributions to NATO.

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2. Ukraine’s Energy Crisis under Fire

[07:08–10:55]

• Update from the Frontline: With most Ukrainian power plants damaged by Russian strikes, nuclear stations keep the lights (and heat) on for millions.
  • BBC’s Jonathan Beale toured the Khmelnytsky nuclear plant: supplies up to 60% of Ukraine’s current electricity needs.
  • Exclusive access reveals a highly secure, high-pressure environment.
  • Urgent: Russia continues nightly airstrikes targeting infrastructure.
• Zaporizhzhia Situation:
  • Europe’s largest nuclear plant, under Russian control, is in shutdown.
  • Ukrainian technicians describe forced interrogations and disappearances of their colleagues.
  • Quote: “We know cases where people were taken to the basement for interrogation. There were others who were taken and then went missing.” — Daria, former Zaporizhzhia technician ([09:37])
  • Growing fear that neglect or military abuse of the site could lead to catastrophe — “Another Chernobyl is not an idle threat.” ([10:21])
• Immediate Measures: Western allies (e.g., Poland, EU) shipping hundreds of electricity generators as Ukrainians struggle to stay warm.
• Wider Impact: Who controls and maintains Ukrainian nuclear sites could have repercussions far beyond the current borders.

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3. Nelson Mandela Memorabilia Auction

[10:55–13:48]

• Court Decision: South Africa’s Supreme Court of Appeal allows select personal items of Nelson Mandela to be auctioned and potentially exported.
• What’s at Stake: “A lot of these items are very personal to South Africa’s former president Nelson Mandela... a beige floral ‘Madiba’ shirt, signed books and photos, a gift pen from President George Bush, a broken cell key from Robben Island, and a 1996 constitution signed by Mandela.” — Myoni Jones ([11:33])
• Controversy:
  • Heritage authorities argue the items are of national significance; Mandela’s daughter hopes proceeds will fund a memorial garden.
  • Background: Some items had been exhibited globally and were initially donated for fundraising.

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4. Investment Gap in Women’s Health

[17:05–20:52]

• Live from Davos: The World Economic Forum spotlights the chronic underinvestment in women’s health.
• Key Facts:
  • Only 6% of private healthcare investment goes into women’s health, despite women being half of the population.
  • Of that, 90% funds cancer, reproductive, and maternal health; other high-burden diseases like cardiovascular issues, osteoporosis, menopause-related disorders, and Alzheimer’s in women remain deeply neglected.
  • Quote: “Most of the funding that we have right now... flows into cancer for women, then maternal health. All other high-burden, high-prevalence conditions that impact women are not well-funded.” — Shayan Bishan, Head of Health at WEF ([18:12], [18:54])
• Potential Upside:
  • Addressing overlooked health issues could unlock over $100 billion in market value, as per new research from the Global Alliance for Women’s Health and Gates Foundation.

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5. Heathrow Eases Liquid Rules with New Scanners

[20:52–23:17]

• Big Change: Heathrow becomes the world’s first major airport to fully implement new CT scanners.
  • Passengers can bring up to 2 litres of liquid in hand baggage, no more separating liquids at security.
  • System is costly (£1 billion investment), took years to roll out, but is seen as a global first.
• Limits and Advice:
  • Not all airports have adopted these rules, so outbound passengers should check return requirements.
  • Quote: “Of course, always to remember that not everybody has them coming back in.” — Lisa Minow, Travel Editor ([22:52])
  • Only a handful of airports (Rome, Dublin) follow similar rules.

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6. Should Novelists Retire?

[23:17–27:38]

• Authors Julian Barnes (80) and Jeffrey Archer (85) have announced ‘final’ novels.
• Debate:
  • Younger authors Kate Moss and Joanne Harris argue that writing is an intrinsic compulsion for many.
  • Quote: “There are two kinds of writer; one who hates writing but likes having written... and people like me, where it’s just a compulsion, and I don’t see that going away.” — Kate Moss ([13:54], [23:48])
  • Joanne Harris: “If you’ve got a story you want to tell... you become obsessed with it and the idea that you wouldn’t do that...” ([24:14])
• Legacy and Control:
  • Writers may announce retirement to control their career narrative and avoid disappointing fans.
  • Anecdote: Agatha Christie wrote final novels “just in case she didn’t make it through the war” ([25:43])
• Industry View: Some concern about the publishing industry’s focus on youth, but for most, writing “mission” endures as long as they do.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Diane Dernie, on Trump’s NATO comments:
  “To have that then negated by somebody who neither—neither they nor their family have ever served on the front line... is absolutely disgraceful.” ([03:36])

• Jonathan Beale, on British soldiers in Helmand:
  “British troops would go out on patrol in ground that was infested with IEDs, roadside bombs, not sure whether they’d come back.” ([04:44])

• On underfunding of women’s health:
  “Only 6% of private healthcare investment goes into women’s health, despite women accounting for nearly half of the world’s population.” — Shayan Bishan ([18:54])

• Joanne Harris, on writing compulsion:
  “If you’ve got a story you want to tell, it’s that amazing feeling... when you have the prickling on the back of your neck... and you become obsessed with it...” ([24:14])

• Kate Moss on writers’ fear:
  “A writer lives with the fear of not being as good as the last book, not getting across their message to the audience.” ([25:04])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:05] Headlines & Trump’s NATO remarks
• [02:53–07:08] Personal stories, UK reaction, fact-check on NATO’s frontline role
• [07:08–10:55] Ukraine’s power crisis, Russian attacks on nuclear infrastructure
• [10:55–13:48] Mandela memorabilia court battle
• [17:05–20:52] Women’s health underfunding at Davos
• [20:52–23:17] Security changes at Heathrow Airport
• [23:17–27:38] Retirement debate among novelists

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Tone & Style

Balanced and factual with moments of deep empathy, outrage, and personal testimony—typical of BBC’s Global News Podcast. Experts, journalists, and interviewees provide reporting with a global perspective, sometimes with sharp emotional resonance (notably regarding Afghanistan and Ukraine).

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For More Information

For further details, listen to the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service, and follow BBC News on YouTube or via your favorite podcast platform. Comments and inquiries can be sent to [e-mail].

Transcript

[Ankar Desai]

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[Ankar Desai]

This is the Global News podcast from the BBC World Service. Hello, I'm Ankar Desai and at 16 hours GMT on Friday 23rd January, these are our main stories. Britain says Donald Trump was wrong to diminish the role of NATO troops during the war in Afghanistan. There's been an angry backlash to the US President's claim that NATO allies avoided the frontline during the conflic, while the World Economic Forum has been dominated by geopolitical rankling. We'll be talking about women's health, another important topic that leaders have been addressing, and a court in South Africa has dismissed a government appeal to block the auction of personal items belonging to former President Nelson Mandela. Also in this podcast this plant alone.

[Jonathan Beale]

Provides a huge proportion of Ukraine's energy needs and the boss of Ukraine's nuclear industry says this too is a target for the Russians.

[Ankar Desai]

As high level talks to end the war in Ukraine continue, we report from inside one of the dwindling number of power stations fighting a freezing winter. The one so called special relationship between the US and UK has, it's fair to say, had a few speed bumps on the road and and now there is another one you can add to that long stretch. Donald Trump has sparked outrage here in Britain after claiming that NATO troops stayed away from the frontline during the war in Afghanistan. The US President made the comments on Thursday while he was at the World Economic Forum in Davos during an interview with Fox News. We've never needed them. We have never really asked anything of them.

[Advertisement Voice]

You know they'll say they sent some.

[Jonathan Beale]

Troops to Afghanistan or this or that. And they did. They stayed a little back, little off the front lines.

[Ankar Desai]

While the majority of NATO soldiers who died while serving in Afghanistan were Americans, roughly a third were mainly from the UK and Canada. Diane Dernie's son, Ben Parkinson, is a former paratrooper and he was severely injured. She told the BBC that President Trump's comments were hurtful. Ben went to Afghanistan as a member of isaf. He wore the ISAF badge, which makes him part of the NATO forces. Ben's life changed completely. He and his family lost everything.

[Kate Moss]

He lost his career, he lost his.

[Ankar Desai]

Chance at a normal life. But Ben was proud and happy to.

[Kate Moss]

Do it, and we were proud of him.

[Ankar Desai]

And to have that then negated by somebody who neither there nor their family have ever served on the front line making his comments about the effort that they put in and the sacrifices that they made is absolutely disgraceful. There's been strong condemnation amongst British politicians, as our political correspondent Damien Gramaticus explains. We've had this morning from Downing street, officially, through the spokesman, a statement saying.

[Jonathan Beale]

The President was wrong to diminish the.

[Ankar Desai]

Role of NATO troops. And Downing street making very clear, it says, we are incredibly proud of our armed forces. Their service and sacrifice will never be forgotten. Now, of course, the government has had to tread carefully around an American president who many view as thin skinned and unpredictable. So that's quite strong stuff from Downing Street. We've had those calls for an apology from the leader of the Conservative Party, the leader of the Liberal Democrats. Many more MPs have been out expressing their outrage too. So what role did NATO soldiers actually play during the Afghanistan war? Here's our defence correspondent, Jonathan Beale. They were there at the very start, when America invaded Afghanistan following those attacks. Nine, 11 and British troops were there right at the end that chaotic exit 20 years later. But I think more importantly, they were on the front line because they were in Helmand Province for about eight years now. That is the most dangerous territory in Afghanistan. I was there covering that war. And British troops would go out on patrol in ground that was infested with IEDs, roadside bombs, not sure whether they'd come back. They were involved in heavy gunfights, heavy firefights with Taliban forces, too. Helmand is the heartland of the Taliban and Most of those 450 British troops lost their lives in Helmand. So what President Trump has said is clearly not accurate. More than that, it is clearly offensive, and we can see that from the reaction of so many veterans. And let's remember, it's not just those who lost their lives there, but the hundreds who've also had to live with life changing injuries, essentially lost limbs. So you can understand the outrage. Jonathan Beale, In a statement to the BBC, the White House Deputy press secretary said that President Trump was right and that America's contributions to NATO dwarfed that of other countries. Now, as we record this podcast, the first trilateral talks between Russia, Ukraine and the US have just begun in the United Arab Emirates. On Donald Trump's peace plan, President Zelenskyy has said he hopes the negotiations could be the start of the process of ending the war in his country. Quite apart from the loss of life on the front line, it's the toll exacted on the civilian population which is also worrying Mr. Zelenskyy. It's currently minus 8 Celsius in the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv to dangerously cold unless you have access to heating and hot water. But the very energy infrastructure that enables those necessities across Ukraine are being targeted by Russia almost every night. Poland is moving almost 400 electricity generators to Ukraine and helping coordinate another 400 from the EU. Ukrainian efforts to generate its own power continue, though the BBC Zura Davis has been given exclusive access to one of its few operational nuclear power stations, which are now providing most of the country's electricity.

[Jonathan Beale]

Driving towards the Khmelnytsky nuclear Power station in Western Ukraine. It is critically important to the country's energy matrix and the war effort. And we were given rare access inside its very secure perimeter. The first thing you notice is how ridiculously loud it is in here. But to put ear defenders on, we're not really going to be able to speak to anybody here. Sound of Chiarmitzki's giant turbine haul. At least 60% of Ukraine's electricity now comes from here and two other nuclear plants, because nearly all conventional power plants have been damaged or hit in Russian airstrikes. This is the nerve center, the control room, of the Khmentsky nuclear power plant in Western Ukraine. There are only five technicians in here in front of an array of computers, switches and control panels. This plant alone provides 40 million kilowatts per hour per day. That's a huge proportion of Ukraine's energy needs. And the boss of Ukraine's nuclear industry says this too is a target for the Russians. Well, the Ukrainian government says that most of its conventional power plants have either been hit or damaged by Russian airstrikes. And that is why this, this huge nuclear power plant at Chimelnytsky and two others are critical to the country's energy needs. They now provide most of Ukraine's electricity. But of course, the country's biggest power plant, Zaporizhzhia, in the south of the country, has been under Russian occupation and control since the start of the war. Zaporizhzhia was attacked and occupied on 3rd March, almost four years ago. It is Europe's largest nuclear power plant, but is now in shutdown mode. Sources still working there under Russian occupation have told us it's now full of military hardware, and there have been missile launches from within the complex. Some Ukrainian workers got out of Zaporizhzhia and now work at the Khmelnytsky complex. They're safe, but the fate of others is unknown. It was a scary time when the Russians occupied, says Daria, who, like her husband Jor, was a technician at Zaporizhzhia. He says, we know cases where people were taken to the basement for interrogation. There were others, he says, who were taken and then went missing. Ukraine says that ponds that supply water to prevent Zaporizhzhia's reactors overheating have been allowed to run dangerously low by the Russians. And although IAEA inspectors do sometimes cross into Russian occupied territory to check the plant, there's concern the site is being neglected in the high pressure surroundings of the Khmelnytsky nuclear plant. It's unthinkable of what could happen at Zaporizhzhia if it's not restored to Ukrainian control here. They don't want a repeat of history. Another Chernobyl is not an idle threat. I heard it mentioned three times on this trip by experts in their field. In the immediate future, petrol generators, not nuclear plants, are the biggest concern for most Ukrainians. With tens of thousands of people without power or heating because of the Russian airstrikes, keeping warm in this bitter winter is a real challenge. But the future of Zaporizhzhia's nuclear plant and who controls it should concern everyone and will have repercussions far beyond these borders.

[Ankar Desai]

We're A. Davies reporting now. For more on this story, you can head to YouTube just search for BBC News and then click on the logo. And then you can choose Podcasts and then the Global News Podcast. And there's a new story available every weekday. A broken key to a prison cell at Robben island and a signature floral shirt are among a collection of various items connected to the former president of South Africa, Nelson Mandela, that could now be sold on the open market. It follows a court ruling by South Africa's Supreme Court of Appeal on an attempt to halt the artifacts being auctioned and exported. Our Africa correspondent, Myoni Jones, told us more about them.

[Myoni Jones]

A lot of these items are very personal to South Africa's former president Nelson Mandela. They include a beige floral shirt. He was known for wearing these shirts called Madiba Shirts. One of them is up for auction. They're signed books and photos by him. They're gifts from other global leaders. There's a pen that was gifted to him by President George Bush. There's a gift from the former US President Barack Obama and his wife Michelle. And there's also a broken cell key that was from Robben island, where he was imprisoned for more than 15 years. And a copy of South Africa's 1996 constitution that was signed by him. And this is a copy from before the Constitution was kind of passed into law. So they're important historical objects, and they're owned by his eldest daughter, Dr. Makaziwi Mandela, and Crystal Brand, who was a prison warden at Robben island when Mr. Mandela was there.

[Ankar Desai]

Okay. And. And the attempts to prevent them being sold and exported. Just tell us a bit of the background to that.

[Myoni Jones]

Yeah, initially, some of these objects. So the. The key and the Constitution, the signed copy of the Constitution, they belong to Crystal Brand, the prison warden. And they'd been exhibited in 2018 in this global touring exhibition showing some of these objects. And then in 2021, a few years later, he was approached by Dr. Mandela, Mr. Mandela's daughter. She said she wanted to build a garden at his burial pot plot, a memorial garden. And so she approached him and asked if he would donate his key, and he signed copy of the constitution, which she'd seen in the exhibition, so that it could be sold to help build his garden. And he agreed to that. But the South Africa's kind of heritage protection agency, the Heritage Resources Agency, they caught wind of that by reading an article in a British newspaper, actually, and they tried to stop that from happening. So in 2022, this auction was supposed to happen in New York City. They stepped in and said it couldn't happen because these objects were part of South Africa's heritage, and therefore they couldn't be exported and sold.

[Ankar Desai]

Manny Jones reporting. Still to come on this podcast, and.

[Kate Moss]

I think there are two kinds of writer. One who hates writing but likes having written, in which case I can completely visualize a moment when they would retire and people like me where it's just a compulsion, and I don't see that going away.

[Ankar Desai]

Should there be a retirement age for authors? Hey, this is US Olympic gold medalist.

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[Ankar Desai]

Today is the final day of the World Economic Forum in Davos, a gathering of presidents and world leaders that has been dominated by diplomacy and geopolitics and the futures of Greenland, Ukraine and Gaza. But the topic on the agenda today is women's health, a sector which gets just 6% of private healthcare investment. So what does this mean for the economy, investment and women across the globe? My colleague Anne Soy spoke to Shayan Bishan, head of the center for Health and Healthcare at the World Economic Forum, who is in Davos.

[Shayan Bishan]

There are diseases that are not gender specific, but then there are diseases which are very gender specific. You know, whether it's endometriosis, it's cancer of breast, it's ovarian cancer, you have menstrual related diseases and some others that are very specific to women or that mostly affect women and less for men. So there are some diseases that are specific to women that we are looking.

[Lisa Minow]

At and which conditions are most overlooked by investors right now.

[Shayan Bishan]

So the investors are mainly overlooking cardiovascular diseases for women, osteoporosis, menstrual related, menopause related diseases, as well as Alzheimer's in women. Most of the funding that we have right now that flows into cancer for women, then maternal health. The current investment is mainly focused on the areas I just mentioned.

[Lisa Minow]

And you say that women's health is generally underfunded. How underfunded? Do you have numbers?

[Shayan Bishan]

Yes. So only 6% of private health care investment goes into women's health, despite women accounting for nearly half of the world's population. So this is a very small amount of funding that goes into women's health. R and D, out of that 6% of funding that goes into RD, 90% of that funding goes into the areas I mentioned. Women's cancer, reproductive health and maternal health. All other high burden, high prevalence conditions that impact women are not well funded.

[Lisa Minow]

And just to mention to our listeners, R and D, by that you mean research and development. And you know, menopause is one of those that would affect virtually every woman. And you say it is one of those that is underfunded. You have been trying to address this through the women's health investment outlook. How? What kind of a difference could it make and how do you achieve that?

[Shayan Bishan]

So this could make a huge difference. You know, we have just looked at the four areas. If we focus on cardiovascular diseases, more women die from heart attack from cardiovascular diseases than men. If we focus on that, if we focus on osteoporosis, menopause and Alzheimer's, I think we could make a very big difference in women's health in trying to fill the gap for women's health. And we have also done some analysis which shows that this can unlock more than $100 billion in market value. So basically, through our work, through Global alliance for Women's Health work, this is an alliance that World Economic Forum launched with Gates foundation, we are showing the economic impact of looking into some of these diseases.

[Ankar Desai]

Anne Soy, speaking to Shyam Bishon. Now Britain's biggest and busiest airport, Heathrow has announced it's scrapping the current limits on liquids and will allow passengers up to 2 liters in containers in their bags. Now it's thanks to new security scanners that have finally been installed. Heathrow now says it's the biggest airport in the world to have the new equipment fully rolled out across all its terminals. Johnny diamond found out more from Lisa Minow, travel editor for the British sun newspaper.

[Lisa Minow]

It's 20 years since these rules were first introduced in response to some bomb threats that involved using liquids on planes. And because of that, we then have had the last 20 years of these rules that we've had in place. What has changed is that across the uk, all of our airports are now upgrading to new, ever more sophisticated scanners. These CT scanners can detect liquids that are a problem in much, much better detail. So this means that no longer are we going to have to take our liquids out of our hand luggage. And now with Heathrow, this is the first big airport in the world that will allow you to take up to 2 litres in your hand luggage. And that's a real game changer.

[Ankar Desai]

It's been a long time coming, hasn't it? And there have been a fair number of false starts.

[Lisa Minow]

It has, yes. I mean, it was 2019 when Boris Johnson first said that he wanted this to happen at all UK airports. Of course, we then had the pandemic and like much of the travel industry, airports were devastating, devastated by that. And so because of that, the rules were then, basically, okay, we'll give you a bit more time. The likes of Heathrow, they've had to spend a billion pounds on this new system because not only are these CT scanners obviously very expensive bits of kit, but they're also extremely heavy. So there was a lot of work involved in the infrastructure at the airport to make sure that the floors could support the weight of them. So it's cost a lot of money, but it does mean now that hopefully this system will be much easier for us to traveling out of the uk. Of course, always to remember that not everybody has them coming back in.

[Ankar Desai]

Yes. I mean, before you pop your 2 litre bottles of cider in and think.

[Jonathan Beale]

That that's it, you may well run.

[Ankar Desai]

Into an airport on the other end that wants the little plastic bags and all your little pots in there.

[Lisa Minow]

Exactly. So it's always best to assume that that is going to be the case abroad. Unless you know definitely yourself that that is going to be the case. I think Rome and Dublin are the two airports that I know where you are still allowed to have those two litre rules in place as well. At the moment, they're the only two I do know.

[Ankar Desai]

Lisa Minow, travel editor for the British sun newspaper. Finally, can novelists retire? Should they? Julian Barnes says his latest novel is to be his last and he is 80. Jeffrey Archer is stopping too. He's 85. Justin Webb spoke to two much younger authors, Kate Moss, whose novels include the Jouer Family Chronicles and the Languedoc trilogy, and Joanne Harris, whose most famous book is Chocolatier, which was later made into a film. So did the thought of retiring ever cross their mind?

[Kate Moss]

I don't think it does. I think when you're an author, you're in charge of the time that you spend writing. You don't really have weekends, you don't really have holidays or retirement unless you impose it on yourself. And I think there are two kinds of writer, one who hates writing but likes having written, in which case I can completely visualize a moment when they would retire and people like me where it's just a compulsion and I don't see that going away.

[Ankar Desai]

Kate Moss Absolutely.

[Joanne Harris]

I mean, it's just if you've got a story you want to tell, it's that amazing feeling when you have the prickling on the back of your neck and you think, oh my God, this is the story that I want to write down. And you become obsessed with it and the idea that you wouldn't do that. But the thing is, Jeffrey is 85, Julian is 80, who knows what any of us would feel. And as I understand it, what Geoffrey Archer has said is that he's writing a huge book and Joanne knows what that's like. I'm writing a huge Norman novel now. And he says he can't imagine there being anything as big again and therefore he probably wouldn't write again. And I do understand that the idea that you're doing this big piece of.

[Ankar Desai]

Work, it might not also be a fear, Joanne, that you're going to write something that isn't as good as what you've done before and in a sense, damage your legacy or just do something that you're not happy with.

[Kate Moss]

I think that's always the fear with a writer. I think a writer lives with the fear of not being as good as the last book, not getting across their message to the audience. I think we have to work through it. I've always felt it. I feel it with every single book that I write. Is this going to work? Are people going to get it? Am I ever going to get another idea again? And I completely understand that people might want to draw a line, but of course, history is full of writers who have drawn that line and have gone back to that itch of writing.

[Ankar Desai]

Yeah, it's true, isn't it? Didn't Kate, Agatha Christie do some sort of effort to make sure that, yes, if something happened to her, we'd all be okay anyway?

[Joanne Harris]

Yes, that's exactly right. Because I think partly what this thing about announcing retirement is, is being in control of your own narrative saying, this is it. Readers don't expect anything from me. Not having that awful moment of people saying, God, whatever happened to Jeffrey Archer? You know, this sort of thing. Agatha Christie was quite, quite determined that she wouldn't let her readers down with Marple and Poirot. So during the Blitz, she wrote a final Poirot novel, Curtain, and a final Miss Marple novel, Sleeping Murder, just in case she didn't make it through the war. So she didn't leave her readers hanging. The Poirot was published in 1975, before she died. The Miss Marple was published in the autumn of 1976, several months after she had died. And of course, it is therefore out of sequence, because it's a much younger Miss Marple that we meet in Sleeping Murder. But I think it's the same thing, the idea that you are in control of the story about your writing career by saying, okay, I'm putting a stop on it. And as Joanne says, none of us wants to let our readers down, either by just fading away or by writing books that are not as good. So it is about control in the funny sort of way, and I'm sure that's partly why both Julian and Geoffrey have announced this rather than just doing it.

[Ankar Desai]

Might it also be slightly the publishing industry and the kind of fetishization of the young Joanne Harris that feeds into this.

[Kate Moss]

I think that exists, certainly. And I don't know what it's like to be right at the end of a career. But Richard Bach, who was an author I loved as a child, said in one of his books, you know, there's a test to find out if your mission on Earth is finished, if you're still alive. It's not. And I don't know if he was talking about writing at that time, but that's the way I feel.

[Ankar Desai]

Yeah. And both of you are intending then, Joanne and Kate to carry on forever?

[Joanne Harris]

Absolutely. Die at our desks.

[Ankar Desai]

Best way to go, the BBC's Justin Webb speaking to authors Kate Moss and Joanne Harris. And that's all from us for now. But there will be a new edition of the Global News Podcast later. And don't forget our sister podcast, the Global Story, which goes in depth and beyond the headlines on one big story, which is available wherever you get your podcast from. And if you want to comment on this episode or the topics covered in it, you can send us an email. The address is globalpodcastbc.co.uk and you can also find us on XBC World Service. Use the hashtag Global newspod. This edition was mixed by Holly Smith and the producer was Judy Frankel. The editor is Karen Martin and I'm Uncle Decide until next time. Goodbye. If you're the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, you know having a trusted partner makes all the difference. That's why, hands down, you count on Grainger for auto reordering. With on time restocks, your team will have the cut resistant gloves they need at the start of their shift and you can end your day knowing they've got safety well in hand. Call 1-800-granger. Click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.