Germany and UK tell Trump this is 'not Nato's war'

Summary

Global News Podcast (BBC World Service)

Episode: Germany and UK tell Trump this is 'not Nato's war'

Date: March 16, 2026
Host: Oliver Conway

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Episode Overview

This episode covers escalating tensions in the Middle East amid the ongoing US-Israel war with Iran, focusing particularly on the diplomatic standoff surrounding President Trump's call for NATO involvement in reopening the Strait of Hormuz. The podcast also touches on repercussions in the Gulf, updates from Ukraine amidst renewed Russian attacks, whistleblowers in social media companies, the state and future of the film industry post-Oscars, and a surprising study about how early babies develop deceptive behaviors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. NATO’s Role & Trump’s Demands in the Gulf Crisis

[00:38–04:25]

• President Trump urges NATO allies to help clear Iran-laid mines from the Strait of Hormuz, warning that not doing so threatens NATO’s future.
  • Other countries like Japan and Australia decline to send warships.
  • The UK, led by PM Keir Starmer, expresses willingness to assist but refuses wider military escalation:
    "The UK would do what it could, but would not be drawn into a wider war."
    — Oliver Conway (01:52)
• Chief international correspondent Lise Doucet explains the complexities:
  • The US did not originally consult allies (except Israel) before military action.
  • Trump’s strategy and end goals keep shifting, making alliances uncertain.
  • Some allies (e.g., India, Turkey) have negotiated with Iran to allow some shipping through, without joining the US-led military effort.
  • Lise Doucet on Trump’s approach:
    "He now wants a Hormuz coalition... and has asked countries, and in that way he often menaces them, that if NATO allies don't come to his aid, then there will be consequences." (05:04)
  • German Defence Minister Boris Pistorius strongly rebuffs Trump, emphasizing legal and political constraints:

    "What does Donald Trump expect from... European frigates in the Strait of Hormuz that the powerful American Navy cannot accomplish there on its own?... We would need both an international framework and a mandate from the German Bundestag. I see absolutely no reason to do so. It's not our war. We didn't start it. We want diplomatic solutions and a swift end."
    — Boris Pistorius (02:56–03:37)

Memorable quote:

"It's not our war. We didn't start it. We want diplomatic solutions and a swift end."
— Boris Pistorius (03:29)

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2. China’s Position on the Strait Crisis

[06:51–09:09]

• Trump calls on China for assistance, highlighting its dependence on Gulf oil and threatening to postpone a summit with Xi Jinping.
• Stephen McDonnell, BBC's Beijing correspondent:
  • China’s response is measured; it continues trade talks and signals unwillingness to intervene militarily.
  • China’s leverage is stronger given robust trade elsewhere:
    "Chinese exports to the US down by 11%... overall they've gone up 22%. So it shows that China’s getting markets elsewhere and doesn't need the US the way it used to." (08:31)
  • China secures its oil by negotiating passage, not force.

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3. Ongoing Iranian Strikes & Regional Fallout

[09:09–11:48]

• Iran intensifies attacks across the Middle East.
  • UAE: drone/missile attacks kill one, disrupt airports, and damage oil infrastructure.
  • Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Kuwait report additional strikes.
• Correspondent Azadeh Moshiri reports on the impact in UAE:
  • The reputation of Dubai and Abu Dhabi as safe business/tourism hubs is threatened.
  • Local angst grows as the economic and psychological toll mounts.
  • "Officials here are furious. One presidential adviser called this imposed terrorist aggression... People are worried about the long term impact here."
    — Azadeh Mushiri (10:19)

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4. Israel’s Bombing Campaign and Domestic Impact

[11:48–15:38]

• Israel intensifies bombing of Iran, seeking regime change.
• Hospitals in Israel operate from underground car parks to protect from missile strikes.
• Lucy Williamson highlights Israeli public skepticism about war’s ability to deliver lasting peace:
  • Citizens weary but support war if it could produce fundamental change.
  • Ongoing missile threats and uncertainty about the end point.
• Opposition figure Nimrod Sheffer, ex-air force general, doubts the war's effectiveness:

  "They lost the air force... Now they said, okay, we realize the game. We understand now you will keep on attacking us until we have the nuclear capacity. It could be even a worse situation than before."
  — Nimrod Sheffer (14:12)

• Diverging US and Israeli war objectives:

  "The political reality in America is very different than the political reality here."
  — Michael Oren, former Israeli ambassador to the US (14:54) "We don't feel the economic crunch... that are being brought to America are not being brought on the Israeli government."
  — Michael Oren (15:10)

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5. Ukraine Update: Russian Daytime Attack on Kyiv

[16:38–19:43]

• Russia launches rare and intense daytime drone assault on Kyiv and elsewhere.
  • Up to 30 drones target infrastructure; casualties reported in various cities.
  • Drones are technologically upgraded, possibly indicating Russian advances.
  • "It was pretty loud. We could hear and see some of this from where we are in the city. Debris from some of the drones that were destroyed landed in pretty prominent parts of the city center."
    — James Landau (17:09)
• Ukraine feels global focus slipping away as Middle East crisis escalates.
  • Ukrainian officials highlight shared experience with Gulf states under Iranian drone attacks.
  • Economic impact: Higher oil prices and shifting arms priorities affect Ukraine’s war.

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6. Social Media Whistleblowers: Harmful Content and Engagement

[19:43–24:15]

• BBC investigation exposes major social media platforms’ prioritization of engagement over harm reduction.
  • Mariana Spring:
    "I spoke to several people who work at Meta... They were told to increase borderline harmful content—misogyny, conspiracy content—to compete with TikTok." (20:33)
  • Whistleblowers allege leadership repeatedly prioritizes political and commercial interests over user safety, especially where children are concerned.
  • Internal Meta resource allocation:

    "Integrity teams were going to ask for 2 headcount to work on kids stuff and 10 to work on elections. There was another team that got 700 for Instagram Reels."
    — Brandon Silverman (Meta, clip, 21:39–21:54)

  • Companies deny allegations, but internal and user experiences suggest otherwise.
• Teens describe addiction to harmful content, ineffective reporting mechanisms, and resignation to algorithm-driven feeds.

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7. Oscars and the Changing Film Industry

[24:15–25:59]

• Tom Brook and Peter Bowes reflect on Hollywood's anxieties:
  • AI, industry layoffs, and streaming upend traditions.
  • Films losing cultural centrality even as their social value endures.
  • Oscars likely to shift from broadcast TV to streaming soon:

    "The Oscars will not be on television. It will be on a streaming service on YouTube… it will take it to a huge audience. But I wonder what it will be taking to a huge audience. What kind of spectacle."
    — Tom Brook (25:29–25:59)

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8. Babies and Early Deceptive Behavior

[25:59–29:46]

• New study: infants show signs of deceptive behaviors (e.g., hiding toys, pretending not to hear) as early as 8–10 months.
  • Lead researcher Elena Hoyker (University of Bristol):
    "Deception is emerging so much earlier than we thought… we found some parents reporting it as early as eight months and about half of kids by 17 months." (26:32–26:49)
  • Parental modeling and play (like Peekaboo) contribute to these behaviors.
  • Most researchers consider it a normal developmental stage.

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Notable Quotes

• “It’s not our war. We didn’t start it. We want diplomatic solutions and a swift end.”
  — Boris Pistorius, German Defence Minister (03:29)
• "President Trump keeps changing not just his narrative on what the end goal is... but also keeps changing his narrative on what's happening on the ground."
  — Lise Doucet, BBC Chief International Correspondent (03:45)
• "China’s getting markets elsewhere and doesn’t need the US the way it used to.”
  — Stephen McDonnell, BBC Beijing Correspondent (08:52)
• "Officials here are furious...this imposed terrorist aggression... People are worried about the long-term impact here.”
  — Azadeh Mushiri, BBC Dubai Correspondent (10:19)
• "We don't feel the economic crunch... that are being brought to America are not being brought on the Israeli government."
  — Michael Oren, former Israeli ambassador to the US (15:10)
• "Deception is emerging so much earlier than we thought...some parents reporting it as early as eight months."
  — Elena Hoyker, University of Bristol (26:32–26:49)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 00:38 — News headlines and overview
• 01:52 — UK’s position on Strait of Hormuz involvement
• 02:56 — German Defence Minister rejects US/NATO war effort
• 03:45 — Lise Doucet on Trump’s mixed messages and coalition-building
• 06:51 — Trump pressures China; Stephen McDonnell analysis from Beijing
• 09:09 — Iranian attacks in the Gulf; Azadeh Mushiri from UAE
• 11:48–15:38 — Israel-Iran war, public sentiment, voices from Israel
• 16:38 — Russian drone assault on Kyiv, James Landau reporting
• 19:43 — Social media whistleblower investigation, Mariana Spring
• 24:15 — Future of film industry post-Oscars, Tom Brook & Peter Bowes
• 25:59 — Research on early deception in babies, Elena Hoyker

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Tone & Style

Balanced and analytical, featuring a mix of hard-news urgency and human perspective. Quotes from officials and correspondents offer clarity and context. The episode weaves together developments in military, diplomatic, societal, and technological arenas with empathy and insight.

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For listeners: This summary covers all significant segments and provides direct attribution and time markers for deeper exploration of each topic.

Transcript

[Tom Brook]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

It's 2009 and we're in the German mountains. A man straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack. He whispers to himself, it's time to

put my balls on the dashboard as

he starts the engine.

In 15 minutes, he's in an ambulance, unconscious. In 15 years, he's a billionaire.

This is Toto Wolff, Formula One's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of Drive to Survive.

This week on Good Bad Billionaire. How Toto Wolff made his billions. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

[Oliver Conway]

You're listening to the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service. Hello, I'm Oliver Conway. We're recording this at 16 hours GMT. On Monday 16th March, Germany and Britain reject President Trump's demand for NATO to help reopen the Strait of Hormuz. Iran carries out more attacks in the Gulf, killing at least one person in the uae. And Ukraine's capital Kyiv comes under rare daytime attack by Russia. Also in the podcast, what do the Oscars tell us about the future of film?

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

And before even a year and a half, half of the kids are deceiving in our sample. They're probably not criminal masterminds or anything at that point. They're just really cleverly coming up with ways to get what they want.

[Oliver Conway]

How babies learn to trick us at a very young age. After pulling its minesweepers out of the Middle east earlier this year, the US says it needs help to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, where Iran has reportedly laid mines as part of its strategy to stop oil tankers getting through. President Trump wants NATO allies to help clear the waterway and has warned that if they don't, the organisation faces a, quote, very bad future. Japan and Australia have already said they are not willing to send warships to patrol the strait. The British Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, said reopening the waterway was not a simple task. He said the UK would do what it could, but would not be drawn into a wider war.

[James Landau]

Firstly, we are working with others to come up with a credible plan for the Straits of Hormuz to ensure that we can reopen shipping and passage through the strait. Let me be clear, that won't be, and it's never been envisioned to be a NATO mission. That will have to be an alliance of partners, which is why we're working with partners both in Europe, in the Gulf and with the us.

[Oliver Conway]

For its part, Germany pointed out that at the start of the war, the US said European assistance was Neither necessary nor desired. And the German Defence Minister, Boris Pistorius, rejected the US President's latest demands.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

What does the world expect? What does Donald Trump expect from a handful or two handfuls of European frigates in the Strait of Hormuz that the powerful American Navy cannot accomplish there on its own? That's the question I ask myself. And before we make a decision outside of NATO territory, by the way, we would need both an international framework and a mandate from the German Bundestag. I would think about that very carefully before we take that step, and I see absolutely no reason to do so. It's not our war. We didn't start it. We want diplomatic solutions and a swift end.

[Oliver Conway]

Our chief international correspondent, Lise Doucet, told us more about the difficulties facing the US in getting help from its allies.

[Lise Doucet]

President Trump keeps changing not just his narrative on what the end goal is for the United States President and Commander in Chief, but also keeps changing his narrative on what's happening on the ground. Our listeners will know that he's repeatedly said, oh, the war is almost over. We've destroyed Iran militarily. And remember, this is a war where there was no consultation with any allies except for Israel. And when Sir Keir Starmer, who initially refused to join the war effort, then came in and said, we'll help in a defensive way, and he said, no, we don't want people who join the war when it's already won. And now he's realizing, and it's extraordinary, that this wasn't realized, wasn't made clear to him by his planners, that Iran had an ability to basically close off this strategic waterway, the Strait of Hormuz. There are some tankers which are still getting through. Which underlines to you that there are others who are trying different ways around this crisis. For President, he now wants a Hormuz coalition, as he calls it, and has asked countries, and in that way he often menaces them, that if NATO allies don't come to his aid, then there will be consequences. But you have on the other side, the Indian Foreign Minister, Jai Shankar, who will join the EU meeting today to discuss this very issue of what they can and should do to try to get that straight open, has been saying, well, they're talking to Iran and they managed to get two Indian flagged gas tankers through the strait this weekend. Turkey has also been talking to Iran. They managed to get a bulk carrier through. Of course, these are exceptions. This is not the bulk of the traffic. But we do also hear reports that other countries are talking to Iran, but President Trump wants countries to join him in a war where, as I said, he hasn't made clear what the overall aim of the war is. And it's also not clear what the war is in the Strait of Hormuz. In his interview with the Financial Times, he also said that he wants to knock out some bad actors on the Iranian shoreline. So this would mean that a whole lot of other countries would become belligerents in this war. And that's a very, very dangerous shift in an already dangerous war.

[Mariana Spring]

Yeah.

[Oliver Conway]

And there have been more reports of heavy bombing in Tehran. Are we, do we have any idea of when this might end?

[Lise Doucet]

It's interesting aspect of this, of this war. I think it's the only one I can remember where you have the two main combatants, the Americans and Iranians, in a sense, talking while talking past each other on social media. President Trump will say something on his Truth Social account. Iran will fire back. And then Iran, then America, mostly President Trump, but also members of his administration, will do the same. Now, President Trump said on Air Force One, he said that US Is holding talks with Iran, but the Iranians aren't ready. And for the first time, Abbas Arakchee said that there are proposals from neighboring countries that they're studying.

[Oliver Conway]

Liz Doucet. Well, as well as pressurizing NATO, President Trump also called on China to help reopen the strait, saying the country gets 90% of its oil from there and hinting he might delay his summit with the Chinese President Xi Jinping, if he doesn't get what he wants. In response, the Chinese Foreign Ministry said both sides were in communication about the expected visit. Trade talks are already underway between the US And China. In Paris, this assessment from our Beijing correspondent, Stephen McDonnell.

[Tom Brook]

Now, the problem for Donald Trump is that he doesn't have the same leverage with China in terms of bullying that he does with other countries. I think most analysts would say that, again, he seems to have overestimated the extent to which he can push Beijing around. I mean, his problem here is basically twofold. One, China might say, well, we didn't start this war. Why would we go and help you sort it all out? And number two, already there are signs that Chinese ships are going to be let through. And so why risk sending the Chinese navy anywhere near a dangerous place like that or any other Chinese assets to come to the US Aid, even if it is to keep these talks alive? I mean, Beijing definitely wants Donald Trump to come. We know this because of the sort of soft peddling of the rhetoric here so as to not upset Washington to keep the momentum going towards this visit. And we're seeing these discussions still going on in Paris right now between Scott Besant and Hurley Fong, as if the visit is going ahead. They're trying to nut out the various sticking points when it comes to trade, the supply of rare earths, the supply of chips, finding ways they can cooperate with one another. But in yet another indication that I think the US doesn't have the same leverage with China, we've got these trade figures that have come out showing that while Chinese exports to the US down by 11% year on year for the first two months of this year, overall they've gone up by 22%. So it shows that China's getting markets elsewhere and doesn't need the US the way it used to.

[Oliver Conway]

Stephen McDonnell in Beijing. Despite a reduction in its attacks in recent days, Iran has continued to lash out at targets across the Middle East. Overnight, Saudi Arabia said it downed dozens of drones, while Iraq and Kuwait also reported new strikes. In the United Arab Emirates, Dubai International Airport was again temporarily shut. And after a drone set a fuel tank on fire, officials in the UAE Capital Abu Dhabi say one person has died after a missile hit a car there. There's also been more disruption at the Fujairah oil facility. We heard more from our correspondent in Dubai, Azadeh Mushiri.

[Azadeh Mushiri]

All this only a day after the Iranian foreign minister, Abbas Archie said that Iran was not targeting civilian and residential infrastructure. That's obviously going to be little comfort to the United Arab Emirates that is seeing these multiple incidents that it's had to resp to. And it's extremely frustrating for a country that feels that it's been unjustly pulled into this wall. Iran may think that this is the sort of pressure that makes leaders here put pressure on the United States to end the war. But the fact is, is that officials here are furious. One presidential adviser called this imposed terrorist aggression. And so this image that has taken so many years, so much effort to build of a safe and and prosperous country, it's taking multiple blows. And people are worried about the long term impact here.

[Oliver Conway]

Yeah, I mean, earlier on we heard about people fleeing essentially the UAE to try and escape these drone attacks. What is the, the impact of this opening and closing of the airport and disruption at the oil facility in Fujairah?

[Azadeh Mushiri]

I mean, life is still carrying on here. In Dubai, for example, there is one regular fountain and light show at this artificial lake at the base of Burj Khalifa, a busy area. And they are carrying on with those shows, having said that there are fewer people who are watching and people are generally very worried that, that a city and a country that is built on tourism is going to take a very big hit. And it's a major Expat hub. Only 10% of people here in the UAE are Emirati citizens. The airport, Dubai International Airport is one of the world's busiest airports with the most international passengers going through there, about 90 million passengers that it dealt with last year. And so that's why they're so concern that this image of a city built of glass towers, glitzy, luxurious, but most importantly safe, that it won't start attracting the same sort of business and the same sort of tourists in the same way.

[Oliver Conway]

Azadeh Mushiri in Dubai in the first days of the war, the Israeli prime Minister said he could now fulfill his long held ambition to crush what he called the regime of terror in Iran. And Benjamin Netanyahu says the bombing campaign is already achieving some of his aims. Our Middle east correspondent Lucy Williamson has this report.

[Mariana Spring]

Israel's wartime routine is now so familiar, even the hospital entertainment continues in underground car parks turned into temporary wards. Several floors above, sirens sound daily as Iranian missiles are intercepted by Israel's air defenses. This underground car park at Sheretzedek Hospital in Jerusalem is now a fully functioning hospital. It's not the first time that Israel's hospitals have moved patients underground during war. And what many Israelis are now asking their prime minister is whether this war with Iran will put an end to Israel's conflicts.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

It became very difficult, the situation. Each time we have the bombs here,

[James Landau]

we want to finish this issue.

[Mariana Spring]

Verbi Vash was visiting his father in law, recovering from a fall, his hospital bed neatly positioned on a numbered orange parking space. Do you think Israel will be in this situation again in six months?

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

In 12 months it might be. Unfortunately, it doesn't finish.

[Mariana Spring]

Do you think this could finish it? This war could finish the wars forever.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

Most of this depends on Trump.

[Mariana Spring]

Iran has been sending missiles towards Israel night and day. Yesterday, shrapnel from cluster bombs landed in several places. Israel's prime minister has been preparing for war with Iran for decades and says this conflict has already changed the Middle east and Israel's power within it. Even with Iran's regime still standing, Iran is way weaker. Nimrod Sheffer, a former air force general now part of the opposition Democrats Party, says victory in Iran will hang on recovering its stockpile of highly enriched uranium.

[James Landau]

They lost the air force, they lost the air defense, they lost most of its ballistic missiles capacity. They lost the navy. They lost tons of assets. Now they said, okay, we realize the game. We understand now you will keep on attacking us until we have the nuclear capacity. It could be even a worse situation than before.

[Mariana Spring]

Before this war began, many Israelis said they were tired of constant conflict but were willing to fight Iran if it meant something fundamental would change. Their prime minister has repeatedly pushed for Iranians to overthrow their government. But with little sign of that happening, the war schedules of Israel and the US May be starting to diverge.

[James Landau]

The political reality in America is very

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

different than the political reality here.

[Mariana Spring]

Michael Oren is a former Israeli ambassador to the US Netanyahu.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

Even people who detest Netanyahu in the opposition are solidly behind him. The question is the timetable is much

[James Landau]

more America's than it is really Israel.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

We don't feel the economic crunch. We don't feel the rise in oil prices. We don't feel any of these pressures

[James Landau]

that are being brought to America are

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

not being brought on the Israeli government.

[Mariana Spring]

Israel's security strategy has changed since the HAMAS attacks of 2023, and its power in the region has grown. Its military might in Gaza, Lebanon and Iran has proved itself time and again in containing threats, not resolving conflicts.

[Oliver Conway]

Our Middle east correspondent Lucy Williamson, still to come on the podcast.

[Mariana Spring]

It doesn't make me feel great. I just get addicted. I can't help it and I should probably stop.

[Oliver Conway]

Whistleblowers told the BBC how social media giants allow more harmful content on their platforms to try to boost user engagement.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

It's 2009 and we're in the German mountains. A man straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack. He whispers to himself, it's time to

put my balls on the dashboard as

he starts the engine.

In 15 minutes, he's in an ambulance, unconscious. In 15 years, he's a billionaire.

This is Toto Wolff, Formula One's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of Drive to Survive.

This week on Good Bad Billionaire. How Toto Wolff made his billions. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts,

[Oliver Conway]

this is the global news podcast. Russia launched a rare daytime attack in Kyiv on Monday morning using drones that Ukrainian officials say appear upgraded. Multiple explosions were heard throughout the capital city and elsewhere. As I heard from our diplomatic correspondent

[James Landau]

there, James Landau, there were attacks across the country. In Dnipro, where two people were killed. In Zaporizhzhia, we think about three dead there. There was also, as you say, an attack on the capital. Here in Kyiv, the authorities say about 30 drones attacked, they think largely energy infrastructure targets in and around the capital city. And it was pretty loud. We could hear and see some of this from where we are in the city. Debris from some of the drones that were destroyed landed in pretty prominent parts of the, the city center, including the Maidan Square, where famously Ukrainians gather to protest and demonstrate and also increasingly remember their war dead. And as you say, yes, there have been some reports that some of these drones had new capabilities. I have to say, I mean, there are always drones is very much an evolving technology. And I think what the suggestion here today is that some of the drones that may have been used, and none of this is confirmed, had greater communication with those, the Russians that had fired them. The original drones were sort of launched and fired and then once they were away, they could no longer be controlled. The suggestion is that some of the drones that came here were communicable with those who had launched it back in Russian territory. But there's a bit of uncertainty about, you know, what developments work because, you know, a lot of these drones, you know, are destroyed. So it's very early to tell from just going through the remnants of what

[Oliver Conway]

have been destroyed and how has the war there been affected by the fighting in the Middle east, if at all?

[James Landau]

Well, in lots of different ways really. The Ukrainians fear that, you know, they're being forgotten as the world's attention turns on the Middle east and that's inevitable. So President Zelensky and others have been doing their utmost to keep Ukraine in the news. He's been very visible, very prominent, talking to world leaders, visiting countries, giving lots of interviews. At the same time, he's been very vocal in saying, look, Ukraine has a lot to offer countries in the Gulf and elsewhere who are, who are learning what it's like to suffer from cheap Iranian designed drones. The Ukrainians are also pretty aware that there are some downsides from this conflict. You know, Russia is filling its coffers with money because of the raised price of oil and the fact that the Americans have decided to waive some sanctions temporarily on Russia. They also know that the Gulf is firing off an awful lot of air defense missiles at the moment, which means that it'll be harder for Ukraine to purchase or get given more of those in coming months. So it's sort of mixed view, I think from here. But at the moment, I mean, we had a long session with President Zelenskyy over the weekend and several of us asked just how bad the moment it was. And he didn't give the impression that this was a game changing moment in the war.

[Oliver Conway]

James Landau in Kiev. More than a dozen whistleblowers have told the BBC that social media companies have allowed more harmful content appear on their platforms in order to maximize user engagement. They spoke to the BBC documentary Inside the Rage Machine. I heard more from our social media correspondent, Mariana Spring.

[Mariana Spring]

I've spoken to whistleblowers and insiders across several of the major social media companies. Some of them work at TikTok. So one who's a TikTok employee actually gave me rare access to the company's internal dashboard of user complaints so I could see evidence about how they prioritize in terms of this system, specific cases and so on and so forth. And they in particular highlighted how they were instructed to prioritize several cases involving politicians over a series of reports of harmful posts featuring children, which was really concerning to them. They also showed me some examples of content that were encouraging people to join terror groups say, which wasn't as the top priority that they had to moderate and deal with. And I met this whistleblower over several months. They're incredibly concerned that these decisions are being made within the companies, not just to compete with the other social media companies, but also to maintain a strong relationship with political figures to avoid threats of regulation or bans. I also spoke to several people who work at Meta. That includes an engineer at Meta who said that they were told to increase borderline harmful content. That's like misogyny, conspiracy theory content in order to compete with TikTok. Another senior researcher at Meta said that when they launched Instagram reels to compete with TikTok, they didn't have sufficient safeguards in place. And I've seen internal research that shows an uptick in harmful content in the comments on Reels. Also, I spoke to someone called Brandon Silverman, who was another senior person who worked at Meta and described how they invested in lots of staff to work on Reels, but then turned down a request for two specialist staff to deal with kids. Here's a clip of him.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

I remember a moment when regular headcount planning process and there were some integrity teams and safety teams. We're going to ask for 2 headcount to work on kids stuff and 10

[Oliver Conway]

to work on elections.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

There was another team that went, oh, we just got 700 for Instagram Reels.

[Mariana Spring]

I was like, okay, it's worth saying I put all these allegations to the social media companies. TikTok said these were, quote, fabricated claims and the company invested in technology that prevented harmful content from ever being viewed. And I also put the allegations to Meta and Meta told me that any suggestion that we deliberately amplify harmful content for financial gain is wrong. The truth is we have strict policies to protect users on our platforms and have made significant investments in safety.

[Oliver Conway]

And what do these kind of decisions made by the companies, what do they mean for the people who use their services?

[Mariana Spring]

One of the things that was highlighted repeatedly by the people who work within the companies is how the prevalence of this kind of content, not preventing the spread of borderline content, say the issue with that is that lots of younger people, including teenagers, use these platforms. And so they are then at risk of being exposed to this content, which is promoted by the algorithms. And in the documentary, I met a young guy called Callum. He's now 19, but when he was 14, he describes how he became effectively radicalized by the social media algorithms and adopted racist and misogynistic views. I also went into a school and spoke to some teenagers about their experiences, particularly how when they say they don't want to see some of this violent and harmful content using the tools in the platforms, they're still getting pushed. It locked down. When I was like nine, we were at home all the time and that's the only way I could communicate with my friends. So I used it a lot more. Who thinks that they spend the most time five hours a day, maybe I'm doing it like before school in the morning, and then as soon as I get home from school, it doesn't make me feel great, but I just get addicted. I can't help it. And I just finally stop. Are there things that pop up on your feed and you think, I don't really want to see more of that? Probably like the same, like violence, like the bullying, the fighting, really just makes people think it's right. Then you report it. It doesn't come up for like a day or two, and then it'll just pop back up. Now, this documentary and investigation comes at a time where lots of countries around the world are thinking about whether to ban social media for under 16s, for example. And I think that the crucial thing that it highlights and that I've found from doing this is just how what the companies, social media companies are saying to the outside world doesn't feel matched up with what the people on the inside doing the work are seeing and the risks they feel are being taken that ultimately affect users and particularly younger people.

[Oliver Conway]

Mariana Spring. Hollywood may still be basking in the glow of its biggest nights, the Oscars, but the film industry is facing some major upheavals, including corporate Mergers, the growing use of artificial intelligence and mass layoffs. BBC Talking Movies presenter Tom Brook was at a watch party in Los Angeles for the Academy Awards ceremony. He's been reflecting on what it says about the future of film with our North America correspondent, Peter Bowes.

[Tom Brook]

People could go away from tonight's proceedings and think, oh, great Hollywood studio film, or two studio films doing really well. And the reality is, you know, people who work in the industry here, people who are out of work, great anxiety about AI and whether it will bring about the promised Land or destroy people's careers. I do feel it is the end of an era in a way. I mean, it sounds very dramatic, but I mean, where film is perhaps less central to people's lives but never been more important in terms of giving us hope for the future. One battle after another. A Norwegian film, sentimental value. I'm a news junkie, but somehow watching these films made me appreciate life in a really good way. And it's a different form of narrative storytelling and we need that.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

Everything is changing and just to or three years time, the Oscars will not be on television. It will be on a streaming service on YouTube.

[Oliver Conway]

And that really, for me, just encapsulates how quickly things are changing.

[Tom Brook]

I know it's been on television, standard broadcast television, since the 1950s. It's going to be on YouTube. And at first I thought, how shabby. But the thing is, YouTube gets 2.5 billion monthly users, so it will take it to a huge audience. But I wonder what it will be taking to a huge audience. What kind of spectacle.

[Oliver Conway]

Tom Brooke in Los Angeles. Now, babies look innocent enough, but a new study suggests they learn how to deceive us before the age of one. More than 700 parents across the US, UK, Australia and Canada were asked about their children's behavior. And a quarter of them were found to dabble in the basics of lying by the age of 10 months by pretending not to hear a parent hiding toys or secretly eating food. Elena Hoyker from the University of Bristol here in the UK led the research. She spoke to Layla Nathoo.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

I think the surprising finding of our study was that deception is emerging so much earlier than we thought. In the research community, we always thought it was about three years, but we found some parents reporting it as early as eight months and about half of kids by 17 months.

[Mariana Spring]

Was it also the kinds of things that they were doing?

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

Yes, I think that's really key. So in previous research we relied a lot on this task where kids peek at something and then say no. They didn't peek. And kids are great at that at three years. But we borrowed deception types as well from the animal literature. So non human primates do deception in the wild. So a non dominant chimpanzee, for instance, might find some food and eat it behind a big rock so that the dominant one doesn't come and take it. So using that kind of deception, we looked at whether kids were doing that, and it seems that. That they are.

[Mariana Spring]

It would suggest that this sort of behavior is normal if you're observing it in about a quarter of very young babies. Is that right? Would it be right to describe it as normal? I mean, we don't, you know, Absolutely. Because the instinct of some parents might be, oh, gosh, my child is already hiding things from me and becoming capable of lying.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

Yeah, I think it's absolutely normal. So before even a year and a half, half of the kids are deceiving in our samples. I mean, from the kids point of view, they're probably just trying to get things they want and coming upon ways to do that. They notice if they can't see someone when they do something, they get away with it. So, you know, they're probably not criminal masterminds or anything at that point. They're just really cleverly coming up with ways to get what they want. So they're really thinking of their own interests, which is, you know, standard at this point of development here. They're really clearly doing something people are not telling them to do. So they're also somewhat creative in their thinking as well.

[Mariana Spring]

And then as they get a bit older, the babies, when they become toddlers, I think you found that they sort of progress to a bit more sophistication in terms of how they can deceive. How much is that connected to how their parents respond to their initial behaviors?

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

So overall, we found that parents who deceive their kids, their kids knew more deception types. And a small number, 15% or so of parents reported encouraging their kids to deceive. And those kids were also more likely to deceive.

[Mariana Spring]

Is there a chance that through play parents could be unwittingly encouraging them to deceive? I mean, I'm even thinking about Peekaboo or something, you know, a very simple game that does involve deception.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

I think that's quite possible. I think there's a lot of overlap. And actually that's why I got into this project. I've done humor research for about 20 years, and some types of humor. Peekaboo is a great one that develops very early on in the first few months, kids are starting to understand peekaboo. And it's tricking people and then enjoying it. Kids tease before a year. They'll offer things and then take it back. So they're kind of deceiving their parent, but they're laughing about it. And of course, parents do these things to their kids, too. The great thing about humor is that it's emotionally positive, it's social. And so when parents are doing that, those might be some things that make kids realize, oh, we can break the rules sometimes and trick other people.

[Oliver Conway]

Helena Hoyker from the University of Bristol here in the uk and that's all from us for now. But the global news podcast will be back very soon. This edition was mixed by Louis Griffin and produced by Chantal Hartle. Our editor's Karen Martin. I'm Oliver Conway. Until next time. Goodbye.

[Narrator (Good Bad Billionaire Promo)]

It's 2009, and we're in the German mountains. A man straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack. He whispers to himself, it's time to

put my balls on the dashboard as

he starts the engine.

In 15 minutes, he's in an ambulance, unconscious. In 15 years, he's a billionaire.

This is Toto Wolff, Formula One's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of Drive to Survive.

This week on Good Bad Billionaire. How Toto Wolff made his billions. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts.