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Global News Podcast
India-Pakistan tensions rise following deadly Kashmir attack
00:32:30
Modi vows to punish 'every terrorist' involved
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- [00:00]
Jackie Leonard
This is the global news podcast from the BBC World Service. I'm Jackie Leonard and at 13 hours GMT on Thursday 24th April, these are our main stories. Pakistan says it will regard any attempt by India to limit its water supply as an act of war. Tensions between the two rivals are mounting following the killing of Indian tourists on Tuesday. And Ukraine has expressed its outrage at the latest deadly strikes on civilian targets in Kyiv. President Zelensky has broken off a trip to South Africa calling for more pressure to be placed on Russia to end the conflict. Also in this podcast, Australia says it will create a strategic reserve of critical minerals as nations scramble to reduce dependence on China for rare earth metals.
- [00:50]
Narendra Modi
And if we don't take urgent steps to stop this tree from getting lost, we may lose it for good.
- [00:58]
Jackie Leonard
The shea nut tree, a source of income for millions across Central Africa and and why it's under threat. For decades, Kashmir has been a point of tension between India and Pakistan. Tuesday's militant attack in which 26 tourists were killed in Indian Administered Kashmir has aggravated relations still further between the two nuclear neighbours. The Indian Prime Minister, Narendra Modi said, India will find and punish every terrorist involved in the attack.
- [01:32]
Narendra Modi
We will pursue them to the ends of the earth. India's spirit will never be broken by terrorism. Terrorism will not go unpunished. Every effort will be made to ensure that justice is done.
- [01:55]
Jackie Leonard
Delhi has imposed restrictions on neighbouring Pakistan which include the suspension of a water sharing arrangement and the closure of a border crossing crossing. Responding to the Indian measures, Pakistan has said that any attempt by India to limit water from the Indus river would be seen as an act of war. A correspondent in Delhi, Arunde Mukherjee, told us more about the comments from Pakistan.
- [02:18]
Arunde Mukherjee
It's a very strongly worded statement from Prime Minister Shahabaz Sharif's office, Islamabad, saying it rejected the suspension of the Indus Water Treaty by India. They said that any attempt to stop or divert the water will, and I quote, be considered as an act of war and also, and I quote, respond with full force across the complete spectrum of national power, is what the statement read. It has also decided to put on hold all bilateral agreements with India and said it was closing down the Wagah border post with immediate effect. They've also said that in the absence of any, quote, credible investigation and verifiable evidence, India's attempts to link this terror attack with Pakistan are frivolous and devoid of any rationality and defeat logic. It also said that Pakistan and its armed forces remain fully capable and prepared to defend its sovereignty and Territorial integrity. So just the words, the choice of words being used is just evidence of the way in which the tensions have escalated between both the countries.
- [03:15]
Jackie Leonard
And just explain to us why the water issue is so important.
- [03:18]
Arunde Mukherjee
Well, it was signed in 1960 between India and Pakistan, mediated by the World Bank. Essentially this treaty governs the sharing of the Indus water river system. It allocates waters from the three eastern rivers to India and the three western rivers to Pakistan. It also allows India limited use of the western rivers for non consumption purposes, like for instance, hydropower. The treaty has been seen as a rare example in a sense of cooperation, even during conflicts that we've seen between the two countries in the past. If things do get serious like we are seeing now, there is a possibility of international arbitration, but we don't know how that's going to go. Millions in Pakistan rely on the Indus system for agriculture and daily needs. So this in a way is India's attempt at putting pressure on Pakistan to act against what it says has been Islamabad's inability to tackle cross border terrorism.
- [04:07]
Jackie Leonard
And what more can you tell us about the hunt for the gunmen?
- [04:11]
Arunde Mukherjee
There is an army operation that continues in pockets of Indian administered Kashmir where they have launched operations. The police have also released pictures and sketches. They've identified three of the suspects. In fact, three out of the four suspects have been named. Two of them they say are Pakistani nationals. There is a reward of just short of 25,000 that's been announced for any further information for the suspects. The investigations continue, focus also shifting from beyond Indian administered Kashmir to Delhi really where an all party meeting has been called by the government where they're looking for some sort of a consensus and a plan of action about what they need to do next. But the situation remains tense. Both countries are nuclear armed countries and they remain on edge. And that's what everyone's watching out for.
- [04:57]
Jackie Leonard
Arunde Mukherjee in Delhi, at least nine people have been killed and more than 80 others injured, including children, in an overnight attack on kyiv involving some 70 missiles and up to 150 drones. It's believed to be one of the most devastating assaults by Russia on Ukraine's capital in recent months. Victoria is a local resident. There was an air raid siren. We didn't even have time to get dressed to go out of the apartment. One blast came after another. All the windows were blown out, doors, walls. My husband and son were thrown across the room. And that's it. I can't remember anything else. President Zelensky is cutting short a visit to South Africa because of the Attack. At a news conference in Pretoria, he said there needed to be more pressure on Russia to end the conflict.
- [05:49]
Volodymyr Zelensky
I don't see much pressure on Russia or any new strong sanctions packages against the Russian aggress. For now, we are very hopeful. And this is not an accusation. We are saying this very directly and without any motion. We believe that if more pressure were applied to Russia, we'll be able to make our positions closer.
- [06:12]
Jackie Leonard
The Ukrainian president himself is under pressure from the United States to accept territorial concessions to Russia, with President Trump accusing him of standing in the way of peace. Speaking to the BBC, Ukrainian MP Oleksiy Goncharenko says Washington needs to be kept on side.
- [06:30]
Oleksiy Goncharenko
We can't lose the United States in this war against Russia.
- [06:35]
Narendra Modi
So our aim is to work with President Trump in the way he likes it. So we should be super patient, super thankful, and very, very clever.
- [06:46]
Jackie Leonard
The Russian Defense Ministry says the strikes targeted aviation, rocket and space machine building and tank industry companies in Ukraine. Our correspondent John Donnison is in Kyiv.
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John Donnison
Well, we're at the scene of one of the strikes. It's a residential neighborhood, what, 10, 15 minutes outside the very center of Kyiv. I can see in front of me it looks like a ballistic missile hit. It's completely flattened one apartment block. That's where we think the nine people were killed. And the emergency services are now just digging through the rubble, looking to see if there's anyone else trapped or killed underneath. All the buildings around are badly damaged. The windows have been blown out, the balconies ripped apart. And I just spoke to one woman here, middle aged woman who had actually fled the east of Ukraine in the areas now occupied by Russia, and her apartment's been completely destroyed. She said she was terrified, managed to get into the corridor when the explosion happened. But obviously pretty devastating for someone who has already been displaced twice.
- [07:51]
Jackie Leonard
And meanwhile, there has been so much public disagreement, particularly on social media overnight, between Donald Trump and President Zelensky about how to bring the war to an end.
- [08:03]
John Donnison
Yes, I mean, this wasn't quite the full scale slanging match that we had between the two presidents in the White House, what, a month or so ago. But it was a pretty public disagreement and Donald Trump saying that President Zelensky was harming the peace process. He said that basically it was proving easier to deal with President Putin than it was to deal with President Zelenskyy. And actually, I put it to this woman I spoke to just a few minutes ago here, I said, look, do you think President Zelensky should do a deal and give those territories, her homeland in the east of Ukraine, which is now occupied by Russia. And she was adamant. She said actually the question shouldn't be what should President Zelensky do, It should be what pressure should President Trump and the international community be putting on Russia to get them to stop. She said there was no question that Ukraine should give up territory, her homeland in the east of the country. She said that was against Ukraine's constitution. And she said Ukraine should retain its territorial integrity.
- [09:16]
Jackie Leonard
That was John Donnison in Kyiv. And just before recording this podcast, Donald Trump has been giving his reaction to the strike on Kyiv. He called it unnecessary and badly timed and wrote on his own social media site, vladimir, stop. In recent years, countries across the world have been trying to secure better access to key resources like lithium and nickel, which have become crucial in sectors such as the car industry and renewable energy. On Thursday, the Australian prime minister outlined plans for a strategic minerals stockpile to strengthen domestic supply chains and reduce dependence on China. Announcing the measures, Anthony Albanese said that at a time of increasing geopolitical uncertainty, it was of critical importance.
- [10:03]
Arunde Mukherjee
Our strategic reserve will be a national asset and our government will use it to advance Australia's national interest. There's an opportunity here to strengthen our economic sovereignty at the same time as we broaden our trade relationships.
- [10:19]
Jackie Leonard
The announcement was made just days before Australia holds an election. Here's our correspondent in Sydney, Phil Mercer.
- [10:26]
Phil Mercer
Well, Australia is a mining superpower and has been for many, many years. It sits on very rich deposits of these so called critical minerals. Most of those that are mined here in Australia are sold as ore to processing factories in China. China controls the global supply chain. So this announcement today by Anthony Albanese, the prime Minister of Australia, who's facing a federal election in just over a week's time on May 3, is an attempt to break or at least dilute China's market dominance when it comes to these critical minerals. Mr. Albanese says that in increasingly uncertain times, Australia needs a brand new approach. And the government has been stressing here that critical minerals are essential not only for Australia's security, but for the security of its key allies.
- [11:24]
Jackie Leonard
Tell us a bit more about these minerals and what they're actually used for.
- [11:28]
Phil Mercer
Well, critical minerals, they are metallic or non metallic elements. Australia has for a while been extremely worried about disruptions to the global supply chain. Now, these minerals, there are many of them. They are used in a vast array of technologies, mobile phones, computers, banknotes, even military equipment. And also they play a vital role in low emission technologies such as solar panels, wind turbines, and rechargeable batteries as well as electric vehicles. So Australia has rich reserves of these critical minerals. Nickel, for example, is used for batteries in electric vehicles, and cobalt is used in lithium ion batteries.
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Jackie Leonard
And you say Australia has reserves. How big are these reserves?
- [12:18]
Phil Mercer
Well, they're pretty enormous. And Australia is sitting on what it believes is not only strategic deposits of these critical minerals, but also politically important as well. These critical minerals could well be used as a key part in Australia's future negotiations with the United States, for example, when it comes to negotiations over tariffs. So Australia would either process the minerals itself or sell them to other countries, including Japan or Germany.
- [12:50]
Jackie Leonard
That was Phil Mercer in Sydney. Shea butter provides an income for millions of women across Africa. The creamy produce from the shea nut tree is used in skin care and food, with the United States and the European Union the biggest importers. But environmentalists say climate change is impacting the growth and yield of the trees because of prolonged droughts, and there are fears it could affect global supply. Many farmers in northern Uganda are also turning to an alternative way of making a living from the trees, felling them for charcoal, which in turn is harming the environment. Njorogi Muigai sent this report from Koboko, northern Uganda.
- [13:34]
Narendra Modi
That is the sound of a border border. The motorbikes you see all across Uganda carrying people and goods. This one is traveling from the Mount K Forest. In the north of the country district is Koboko district that borders Democratic Republic of Congo and South Sudan. And with us is conservationist Mustafa Garimu. On our way, the border borders keep coming, one after another after another, and strapped on the backs are large sacks of charcoal from sheer nut trees. Mount K Forest Reserve is home to one of the last sizeable shear nut tree populations in East Africa. The golden butter from the sheer nuts has provided a reliable income for millions of women across the region. But prolonged droughts attributed to climate change have led to crop failures and that's pushing many locals into seeking alternative sources of income. For some, that means cutting down the trees to sell as charcoal. This charcoal we are talking about is not the charcoal. You will know where the local people around here use it themselves. It is what I would call commercial charcoal business, where this charcoal is produced in bulk. Seeing people cut the tree has always caused to me a lot of pain in my heart. Our community is affected by poverty, so they look at the tree as a cheap alternative source of income. The nuts from the Uganda shea tree are used to make high quality nilotica shea butter used in skincare and cooking Mariam, a mother of six, has been making shea butter for over 20 years. She sells one 500ml bottle of sheer nut oil for around two and a half US dollars. But she says these days she's struggling to make a living. When I started this business, I used to sell 3 to 4 jerrycans. Nowadays I only get 5 liters. I was able to make 300,000 Ugandan shillings. Nowadays I only make 100 to 50,000 Ugandan shillings. Money is not enough. My children are not doing well at home because I don't get enough shea butter. Such is the concern over the felling of the shear trees for charcoal that the Ugandan presidency put a ban on the practice in 2023. But experts like Professor J.B. okulo of Makerere University say it's not working, largely because of the demand. It has been very difficult to implement. But the problem we see is more in urban area. The demand of the charcoal if you move is more in urban area, not in the rural area. The International Union for Conservation of Nature classifies the sheer tree as at a high risk of extinction. And activists like Mustafa are calling for urgent action to protect it, including replanting. If we don't take urgent steps to stop this tree from getting lost, we may lose it for good.
- [16:44]
Jackie Leonard
Njirogi Muigai, reporting from northern Uganda. Still to come, a first of its kind trial helping adults manage life threatening peanut allergy.
- [16:56]
Phil Mercer
It's really changed my life, you know. That can now be brought more widely and, and impact more people's lives. I think that's a really good thing.
- [17:14]
Jackie Leonard
Over the last month, thousands of Gazans have taken to the streets in sporadic protests against Hamas and against the war. Public criticism of Hamas is rare in Gaza, with protests sometimes violently dispersed and opponents jailed, tortured or killed. The Hamas run Health Ministry says more than 51,000 people have been killed in Gaza during the war. On Thursday, rescue services say at least 25 people were killed in Israeli air strikes. The BBC's diplomatic correspondent Paul Adams has been speaking to some of those Gazans who've been protesting and he reports from Jerusalem.
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Volodymyr Zelensky
Out, out, out, he says. All of Hamas out on the streets of Gaza, voices of defiance. Hamas, they say, has brought nothing. But mizuh deliver the message. The chant goes. Hamas is garbage. After a year and a half of war, opposition to Gaza's rulers is boiling. Muamman Al Natur is a vocal critic, speaking out from the shattered remains of his city.
- [18:31]
Arunde Mukherjee
The world is deceived by the situation in the Gaza Strip. The world thinks that Gaza is Hamas.
- [18:36]
Volodymyr Zelensky
And Hamas is Gaza.
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Arunde Mukherjee
We didn't choose Hamas, and now Hamas is determined to rule Gaza entire, our fate to its own. Until it returns to power, Hamas must retreat. It must make concessions.
- [18:49]
Volodymyr Zelensky
But speaking out is dangerous. Hamas has never tolerated dissent. Muhammad seems undaunted, writing a furious column for the Washington Post at the end of March. To support Hamas, he said, was to be for Palestinian death, not freedom. But it is dangerous to be raising your voice like this. No.
- [19:11]
Jackie Leonard
We need to take a risk and speak out. I am 30 years old.
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Arunde Mukherjee
When Hamas took over, I was 11. Resistance takes into account international and religious.
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Jackie Leonard
Laws, kidnapping women and children and killing many people.
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Arunde Mukherjee
No human can accept this.
- [19:26]
Jackie Leonard
Humanity demands us to raise our voices. Despite Hamas's suppression, Hamas is at its weakest now.
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Arunde Mukherjee
We want civilians in Gaza to make our voice reach the world.
- [19:36]
Volodymyr Zelensky
Hamas may be busy fighting Israel, but it's not afraid to punish its critics. This is Odeh Rubai, alone and afraid, in a grainy, dark post on social media. I don't know why they're after me, he says, glancing over his shoulder. They've destroyed us and brought ruin. Soon after that message, Ode was dead. A video of his body showed terrible wounds. And he's not the only one. We've seen pictures of several others tortured, beaten or killed for daring to protest against Hamas at Ode's funeral, threats of revenge, and again demands for Hamas to get out of Gaza. Last summer, Amin Abed paid a heavy price for his decision to speak out. Hamas militants beat him senseless, broke bones all over his body and damaged his kidneys. He survived, but had to seek medical treatment abroad. He spoke to us from Dubai.
- [20:37]
Narendra Modi
Hamas power has begun to fade. It's not like it was before.
- [20:41]
Oleksiy Goncharenko
Nowadays, Hamas is very weak.
- [20:43]
Narendra Modi
It targets activists and civilians, beats and kill them to scare people.
- [20:48]
Volodymyr Zelensky
Some of the more recent protests have been bold. Beit Lahir, at the northern end of the Gaza Strip, has seen some of the most vociferous opposition. In a series of voice notes, which we've disguised at the sender's request, we were told of an incident in which local residents prevented Hamas fighters from launching rockets from inside their community. The gunmen fired on the crowds, but eventually were driven out. Elsewhere, protesters have told militants to stay away from hospitals and schools. But it's risky. In Gaza City, Hamas shot one such protester dead. Before the ceasefire collapsed last month, Hamas fighters seemed intent on highly visible displays of power. But now, with Israel once again attacking relentlessly, the same gunmen have retreated underground. And Gaza's civilians have been plunged back into the misery. Of war. With little to lose and hopes dashed again, some are venting their fury against Israel and Hamas. It's not yet a rebellion, but after almost 20 years of rule, Hamas's grip on Gaza is slowly slipping.
- [21:59]
Jackie Leonard
Paul Adams Prosecutors in South Korea have charged the former President Moon Jae in with corruption in a case linked to the employment of his son in law. Mr. Moon led South Korea from 2017 to 2022. Our correspondent Jean MacKenzie reports from Seoul. Mr.
- [22:17]
Phil Mercer
Moon is best remembered for his attempts to broker a peace deal with Kim Jong Un.
- [22:22]
Jackie Leonard
But now he's been accused of bribery.
- [22:24]
Phil Mercer
He's alleged to have offered the founder of a budget airline a position in his government in return for his son in law being given a senior job at the airline. Prosecutors argue that Mr. Moon's son in law had no experience in the airline industry before he was hired. This case follows a long tradition in South Korea of former leaders being charged with crimes. The prosecution service is often accused of being politicized. And when the government changes hands, it's common for rival politicians to be investigated.
- [22:54]
Jackie Leonard
His successor, Yoon Sang Nyol, also awaits trial, accused of insurrection last December. To Brazil, where a big corruption scandal appears to be unfolding. Police are investigating a scheme which for the past six years has allegedly defrauded millions of pensioners of a billion dollars. Because only small amounts were taken from each individual, many didn't notice that their monthly payments were a bit short. But now the head of Brazil's State Pension Institute, Alessandro Stefanutu, has been fired. Jeanette Jalil heard more from our America's regional editor, Leonardo Rocha.
- [23:32]
Oleksiy Goncharenko
Brazilian police launched this major operation with raids across the country 13, 14 states because the audit office had gathered evidence showing that probably millions of pensioners had money deducted from the monthly payments without their authorization. What this scheme consisted of is people were made to join associations of pensioners like a union, and they made a deduction for membership every month. But more than 90% of those people didn't know they had joined. Basically, the forms were fake. If you think that Brazil has almost 30 million pensioners, if you take $1 from each person, you have $30 million a month.
- [24:16]
Jackie Leonard
Yes, and the amounts being taken from each individual account were small. But if you add that all up, that's more than a billion dollars.
- [24:25]
Oleksiy Goncharenko
More than a billion. 1.1 billion over six years. It's a scheme that has been going through three different presidents, but the numbers have soared in the past one or two years. For example, one of those associations had 30,000 members and all of a sudden they had 600,000 members. It's fraud. It's basically targeting the most vulnerable in society. I imagine that they target people in small towns or rural areas, or people who really vulnerable and couldn't defend themselves.
- [24:55]
Jackie Leonard
So this started in 2019, as you say, it wasn't just under President Lula's watch. But how damaging is it for him given that he himself has been mired in corruption allegations in the past?
- [25:07]
Oleksiy Goncharenko
Well, it is very damaging for his reputation, for his government, because Alessandro Stefanuto, who was the head of the Pensions Institute, he was appointed by a left wing government, part of the government coalition, and initially he was suspended for hours and then president Lula said Mr. Stefanut would have to resign because of the political implications. Basically, eventually Mr. Stefanut was sacked. What is difficult here for President Lula is he's distancing himself from this person, but he can't go very hard on this party because he needs the vote. His coalition is very ample, very wide. And just one or two, two weeks ago, another government minister also had to resign for corruption. So he doesn't control the whole coalition that the people appointed by different parties. But eventually, all the reaction, all the bad press comes to President Lula, who is struggling and who will fight for re election next year.
- [26:06]
Jackie Leonard
Leonardo Rocha. In recent years, studies have found that young children with life threatening peanut allergies can be given microdoses to help them build up enough immunity in case of accidental exposure. And now a small clinical trial in the UK is looking at whether the same can be done for adults, with participants being trained to eventually eat several peanuts a day. One of them, Chris Brooks Smith, had his worst allergic reaction 10 years years ago after ordering takeaway food.
- [26:37]
Phil Mercer
I have one bite, put my spoon down because I feel tingling and I'm like, maybe it's the spice, maybe it's something in there. And then within seconds, spots start appearing on my lips. That's the first telltale sign. It's like someone's pouring a boiled kettle of water over you for all that time. So I'm writhing, screaming and crying, unable to escape this pain.
- [27:02]
Jackie Leonard
Now, though, Chris is able to eat four peanuts every morning to keep his allergy at bay. Our health reporter Philippa Roxby has more on this groundbreaking trial. It's the first to test whether adults who are allergic to peanuts can be desensitised.
- [27:17]
John Donnison
The first dose that we gave was.
- [27:19]
Phil Mercer
0.8 milligrams, which is infinitesimally small.
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Jackie Leonard
That's Professor Stephen Till from King's College London and Guy's hospital, he led the trial.
- [27:28]
John Donnison
They were given supplies for two weeks, wrapped up and then to take home to mix with their meals daily.
- [27:33]
Jackie Leonard
And then when they were going to.
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Phil Mercer
Go to the next dose, they came.
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John Donnison
Into hospital to have that tested with.
- [27:38]
Jackie Leonard
Them under medical supervision.
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John Donnison
And then they carried on again on.
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Jackie Leonard
That higher dose then for another two.
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John Donnison
Weeks before repeating the cycle, coming back.
- [27:45]
Jackie Leonard
By the end of the nine month trial, 2/3 of the 21 patients could eat up to five peanuts without reacting.
- [27:52]
John Donnison
Food immunotherapy is a much newer treatment and really it's only been the last.
- [27:57]
Jackie Leonard
20 years and predominantly in children where.
- [27:59]
John Donnison
This has been studied.
- [28:01]
Jackie Leonard
So we need treatments for adults as well as children.
- [28:04]
Phil Mercer
And that's why this kind of research.
- [28:07]
John Donnison
This area of research is very important.
- [28:09]
Jackie Leonard
Patients started on tiny amounts of peanut powder and over many months built up to four whole peanuts a day, something they've got to continue to do now. So it wasn't a quick fix and it certainly wasn't a cure. It needed strict medical supervision. So not something to try at home.
- [28:26]
Phil Mercer
I'm thankful. Gratitude, it's really changed my life.
- [28:33]
Jackie Leonard
For Chris, it's a huge relief. He no longer has to worry about.
- [28:37]
John Donnison
What he's eating or live in fear.
- [28:40]
Jackie Leonard
Of dying from an allergic reaction.
- [28:43]
Phil Mercer
If that can now be brought more widely and impact more people's lives like it already has done, I think that's a really good thing.
- [28:51]
Jackie Leonard
Chris Brooks Smith ending that report by Philippa Roxby. The Magic Circle describes itself as the world's most famous society of magicians. The British institution has been established for 120 years, but for much of that time, women were excluded from membership. More than 30 years ago, Sophie Lloyd disguised herself as a man in order to attempt to join, but she was expelled when her illusion was uncovered. She has now received an official apology and will be welcomed back at a ceremony in London later on Thursday. Sophie Lloyd spoke to Emma Barnett about her original audition and exam 34 years ago, which she performed in character as.
- [29:34]
Sophie Lloyd
Raymond Lloyd, my magician friend, the late Jenny Win Stanley. She was a really behind all this. I played Raymond and with her tuition I managed to do this character and.
- [29:47]
Jackie Leonard
Totally believed, and it was totally believed. You know, I was looking at some.
- [29:50]
Sophie Lloyd
Of it, totally 100%.
- [29:51]
Jackie Leonard
And you were having to do magic wearing a bodysuit and wearing gloves? Yes. Did that make it harder?
- [29:57]
Sophie Lloyd
The bodysuit was fine, but the gloves, it's very hard to do sleight of magic. Very, very slight, very hard. I wore plumpers as well, like plastic, cheap things on a Brace to wear under your face, to give me the sort of the, the jawline I wanted.
- [30:11]
Jackie Leonard
And you had everyone fooled.
- [30:13]
Sophie Lloyd
I did, yes. We did a 20 minute show in front of 200 people, three examiners, and spoke to the examiner for an hour and three quarters afterwards.
- [30:21]
Jackie Leonard
And what happened when you, when you wanted to say, well, I'm actually Sophie and you're now admitting women, what conversation happened?
- [30:26]
Sophie Lloyd
Well, Jenny did it over the phone and she got off the phone, she goes, well, that didn't go down well because she had a lot of friends in the magic circle, you know, and she was, she was quite surprised. And about three days, two days later, we got a letter to say that Raymond's been expelled. You know, it didn't go down very well. Jenny was very, very hurt and we couldn't get our heads around it, really couldn't. We just thought, well, come on, it's funny, it's amusing. But they didn't think so. And Jenny was completely snubbed, unfortunately.
- [30:56]
Jackie Leonard
And you were, I suppose in the process you weren't able to be a member. And did you, did you carry on practically practicing magic?
- [31:03]
Sophie Lloyd
Yeah. 11 years I played anti bullying show, variety show. That little COCKNEY Boy, about 12, 13 years old, I took him all over the UK and, and use magic and illusions and because it's very visual and it's, you know, and, and how do.
- [31:19]
Jackie Leonard
You feel about this evening, Sophie, about being finally admitted as you.
- [31:23]
Sophie Lloyd
Oh, I was going to say, after all these years, things have changed so much. I mean, we're talking about 30 years ago. The welcoming was wonderful. Do you know what? I was emotional. It was. This is for Jenny, really.
- [31:35]
Jackie Leonard
Jenny, we should say she's no longer with us.
- [31:37]
Sophie Lloyd
No. My darling late friend. Yeah, she died in 2000. What's it for?
- [31:43]
Jackie Leonard
So it's quite a moment, I imagine, for you on that level.
- [31:46]
Sophie Lloyd
It is. I mean, I'm really, really happy and. But then I go, you know, I just think Jenny would have loved it.
- [31:52]
Jackie Leonard
Magician Sophie Lloyd speaking to Emma Barnett. And that's it from us for now. But there will be a new edition of the Global News Podcast later. If you would like to comment on this edition or the topics covered in it, do please send us an email. The address is globalpodcastbc.co.uk. you can also find us on X at BBC World Service, just use the hashtag globalnewspod. This edition was mixed by Abby Wiltshire. The producer was Ella B Wicknell. Our editor is Karen Martin. I'm Jackie Leonard and until next time, goodbye.