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Pope Francis Dies - Global News Podcast Special Episode
00:19:03
His death at 88 follows a lengthy illness
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- [00:00]
Ella Bicknell
This is the global news podcast from the BBC World Service. I'm Ella Bicknell and at 12 hours GMT on Monday 21st April, with a special global news podcast on the death of Pope Francis, we'll have a comprehensive roundup looking back at the life and legacy of the Pope, with analysis from our religion editor, Aline McBool, our former Vatican correspondent David Willey in Rome, along with reaction from around the world. Pope Francis has died at the age of 88 following a long illness. The son of Italian migrants, he was born in Argentina and in 2013 he became the first Latin American to lead the Catholic church, which has 1.4 billion followers across the world. The Pope's death was announced on Monday morning by Cardinal Kevin Ferrell at the Vertican.
- [00:53]
Cardinal Kevin Ferrell
Dear brothers and sisters, with deep sorrow I must announce the death of our Holy Father Francis. At 7:35 this morning, the Bishop of Rome Franc returned to the house of the Father. His entire life was dedicated to the service of the Lord and his Church. He taught us to live the values of the Gospel with fidelity, courage and universal love, especially towards the poorest and most marginalized. With immense gratitude for his example as a true disciple of the Lord Jesus, we commend the soul of Pope Francis to the infinite merciful love of the Triune God.
- [01:31]
Ella Bicknell
As a young man, Pope Francis became a Jesuit, rising to become the Archbishop of Buenos Aires. His election to the Papacy 12 years ago came at a time of controversy for the Catholic Church. Our religion editor, Aline McBoul has this report on the life of the Pope.
- [01:50]
Cardinal Kevin Ferrell
His surprise election in 2013 would mark a more radical break with the past than many expected. Jorge Bergoglio did have Italian roots, but was born in Argentina. While studying for priesthood, he worked briefly as a nightclub bouncer. While many fellow Jesuits were jailed and tortured. During Argentina's military dictatorship, he rose to become Archbishop of Buenos Aires, some accusing him of forging too close a relationship with the regime. As Pope, he'd take the name of a saint who championed the cause of the poor. Francis signalled that his pontificate would be rooted not in Rome, but in the lives of believers around the world, and especially those on the economic margins. From the beginning, his style was informal. His first act as pope was to pay his own hotel bill. In his early gestures, like washing the feet of the elderly and prisoners, he he showed desire for his priests to be closer to the disadvantaged. He spoke out for the protection of migrants and refugees, laying a wreath on the waters where so many died on their perilous journeys. He traveled widely, drawing energy from the crowds. On a trip to Brazil, 3 million gathered on Copacabana Beach. And in the Philippines, he broke records for the world's largest, largest mass, as 6 million turned out to join him. He linked economic inequality to the environment. In a papal encyclical, he said climate change amounted to rich countries inflicting damage on poor ones.
- [03:34]
Aline McBoul
The Pope of the Holy See, he.
- [03:37]
Cardinal Kevin Ferrell
Became the first pope to address the U.S. congress. I am most grateful for your invitation. Telling the world's richest nation to take care of Mother Earth. God bless America. His pontificate continued to be haunted by the scandal of the sexual abuse of children by priests.
- [03:58]
Aline McBoul
God weeps for the sexual abuse of children.
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Cardinal Kevin Ferrell
A trip to Ireland in 2018 was one of many times he spoke out about it. But scandals continued to emerge. His papacy marked something of a change of tone on the subject of homosexuality, early on, remarking who am I to judge when talking about a gay bishop? But some progressives argue that in practical terms, the Vatican's stance and the church teachings have changed little. Even so, conservative Catholics viewed him with suspicion. But he did have very conservative views on abortion, contraception, surrogacy and gender reassignment. Speaking here at the ceremony during which he made Pope John Paul II a saint, his style of papacy, though, couldn't have been more different to his immediate predecessor, Benedict xvi, whose funeral he presided over through the scores of cardinals from the developing world he appointed. He changed the complexion of the church hierarchy, consolidating a shift in the center of gravity of Catholicism away from Europe, where it was in decline, towards Latin America, Asia and sub Saharan Africa. He was above all a pastoral pope, a man of humility who preferred the fellowship of ordinary believers to the trappings of ecclesiastical status and power.
- [05:35]
Ella Bicknell
Aline Macboom David Willey was the BBC's Rome correspondent for 40 years, travelling with and reporting on different popes and their papacies. He been sharing his reflections on Pope Francis.
- [05:47]
Aline McBoul
It's been an extraordinary papacy. He broke the mould which had been established. I lived in Rome many years and four different papes is now and I. I think that it's been different in quality to any of the previous ones. And Pope Francis also traveled very widely. I accompanied him on many of his journeys to Africa, to Asia, to many parts of the world.
- [06:15]
David Willey
He.
- [06:16]
Aline McBoul
He really set, it seems to me, the Catholic Church on. On a new road in which it would really can now look forward to becoming a universal church in a sense which it has not been before. That's to say he, he went to Mongolia, he went to Southern Sudan, he went to the ends of the earth in his attempts to bring the Catholic faith to the faithful and to preach and to act in a way which he considered was suitable for the modern world. When he was first elected there were great expectations that he would be a reformer. Well, there are many who have. Many people have been disappointed at the extent of his reforms. He has indeed brought women into the church, not in the sense of allowing women to be ordained as priests. But for example, there's now a woman who is the governor of the Vatican City state, there's a woman running the Vatican museums. Some quite important Vatican roles are being filled by women now. And although he's refused to compromise on the age old traditions, people's celibacy, it's not excluded that things will change in the future. And I think we're entering upon a very, very interesting phase in which all the cardinals will now come to Rome to elect a successor to Pope Francis. And who knows where the choice is going to fall because it seems to me the field is very open. Could be somebody from the developing world which would be predictable, but also it could be another Italian. The cardinals could play safe. There's going to be a lot of heavy discussion in the weeks to come here in Rome.
- [08:01]
Ella Bicknell
David Willie Pope Francis had been in frail health. He recently spent more than five weeks in hospital where he received treatment for pneumonia. He was discharged a month ago and had made a limited number of public appearances since just yesterday. On Easter Sunday he blessed crowds gathered at the Vatican both from the balcony overlooking St. Peter's Square and then from his popemobile. Catholics have begun gathering at the square following the announcement of Pope Francis death. The bells of St. Peter's Basilica have told. Ursula Klumpas, one of the many pilgrims visiting Rome for Easter, gave her reaction. I just read it.
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Ursula Klumpas
One of my friends texted me and she texted me, do you know that Pope just died?
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Ella Bicknell
And I said really?
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Ursula Klumpas
And then I sort of detected and I saw, I was of really, really shocked because I was here yesterday at.
- [08:54]
Ella Bicknell
Mass and I saw the Pope and.
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Ursula Klumpas
He looked just so fragile, you know.
- [09:00]
Ella Bicknell
Our correspondent Sophia Battica is also at Vatican City.
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Sophia Battica
The feeling here is one of palpable shock. We're in St. Peter Square and just 24 hours ago Pope Francis was there delivering his daily address for Easter. He was frail, he only said a few words but there was hope that his health was getting better. And you know, I've been here for the past hour and more and more people are pouring into the square. It's a mix of people from Italy and people from all over the world who have been saying to me that they just wanted to come here to pay their respects to Pope Francis. And I think we can go and find some people to talk to. Hi. Where are you from?
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Ursula Klumpas
I am originally from India, but I live in Germany.
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Sophia Battica
So why are you here today? How did you feel when you heard the news about Pope Francis?
- [09:55]
Ursula Klumpas
To be honest, I had to take a minute. It was quite emotional because I really liked him as a Pope personally. He had a genuine care for the poor, and it was refreshing to see a man of his authority showing such care for the environment and for the poor. The very fact that he abandoned luxuries given to popes for, like, a more simpler lifestyle, it said a lot about who he was as a person. So, yeah, I am really personally gonna miss him as a pope.
- [10:24]
Sophia Battica
And you were here in St. Peter Square just yesterday. You saw that address that Pope Francis gave for Easter?
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Ursula Klumpas
Yes, yeah. In fact, I was just on the phone to my mother and she said, you guys were so lucky, see, to receive that last blessing for him. But also it was so difficult to see him in that state because he was always such a smiling pope, such a happy pope. Yeah. Grateful to have been here to receive his last blessing. I think it's a memorable moment for me.
- [10:50]
Sophia Battica
A memorable moment. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks for speaking to us. Well, that's something that we've heard from a lot of people here. You know, the fact that Pope Francis was really a man of the people, a Pope of the people. And he will be missed by not only Italians, not only Catholics, but people from all over the world.
- [11:08]
Ella Bicknell
Sofia Petita in Paris. The bells of Notre Dame Cathedral have rung out 88 times to honour the Pope. The French President, Emmanuel Macron has paid tribute. He said that Pope Francis was steadfast in his mission to bring joy and hope to the world's poorest people.
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Cardinal Kevin Ferrell
Throughout his time as Pope, he stood.
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Aline McBoul
By the most vulnerable, the most fragile.
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Rich Preston
With great humility and a very special sense in these times of war and.
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Aline McBoul
Brutality, a very special sense of the other and the most fragile in this. He was faithful to a tradition that was dear to him.
- [11:48]
Ella Bicknell
Many other leading world figures have been paying tribute to Pope Francis. The Russian President Vladimir Putin hailed the Pope as a defender of the highest values of humanism and justice. The Argentinian President, Javier Milei, who previously clashed with the Pope, has praised his focus on inter religious dialogue. The death of Pope Francis comes just a day after he met with US Vice President J.D. vance, who was visiting the Vatican. Writing on X, Mr. Vance said he was happy to see him, though he was obviously very ill, and his heart goes out to the millions of Christians all over the world who loved him. For more, here's Rich Preston.
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Rich Preston
Italian Prime Minister Giorgio Meloni saying, the Pope's death makes us deeply sad. He was a great man and a great shepherd. A great man has left us. Andrzej Duda, Poland's president, says he was a great apostle of mercy in whom he saw the answer to the challenges of the modern world. Here in the uk, the Archbishop of York actually quoted some words that Pope Francis had said to him in 2023 when they met. Let us walk together, work together, pray together. The Archbishop went on to say they sum up his vision for the church, not just the Roman Catholic Church, but the broader Christian community. Israel's President Isaac Herzog saying he saw great importance in fostering ties with the Jewish community and in advancing interfaith dialogue. We see countries like Iran, of course, not a Christian country, offering its condolences to all Christians around the world. And even within the Christian community, there can of course, be divides. Within the last few moments, the head of the Orthodox Church in Moscow has said the Pope played a significant role in active development of contacts between Russian Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, and going on to say that it hopes these corporations, these ties, will continue in the Pope's name following his death.
- [13:51]
Ella Bicknell
Rich Preston. Ruth Gledel is the editor at the Tablet, a weekly Catholic paper published in the United Kingdom. She said that the passing of Pope Francis was a great loss, not just for the Church. To me, he was a rare, lone voice in the present global context, speaking out for migrants, for refugees, for the poor, the dispossessed, people on the margins. He himself came from the margins. You know, he said they went to the end of the earth to find the Pope when he was elected, and especially in the world as it is at the moment. I don't need to explain to you what I mean. His voice, I think, was so needed and it's so. It's so sad at this particular time that voice has gone. Robert Mickens is a columnist and Vatican observer who has been based in Rome for many years. He writes for Lacroix International, a French newspaper which has a focus on the Catholic Church.
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David Willey
Yesterday, Pope Francis made an appearance in St. Peter's Square to give his Easter blessing. It was very clear from what we saw that he was a bit disoriented not at all like his normal self. And I actually put something on X as a pray for the Pope. He just doesn't look very oriented. He also met with the U.S. vice President J.D. vance, very briefly at 11:30am Rome time, as Mass was going on in St. Peter's Square. And it was very clear then that he was just not his normal self. So it's not a complete surprise, although it is shocking because we come to see, you know, Pope Francis very much engaged in the life of the church here in the 12 years that he's.
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Aline McBoul
Been Pope, what kind of man was he? And there is this ongoing discussion which will go on about whether he was or whether he wasn't a liberal pope.
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David Willey
Yeah, I think he was Catholic and he was a Catholic of the Second Vatican Council. It was clear. I mean, Pope Francis, one of the things that always impressed me was he was very comfortable in his own skin. And that might sound strange, but I think his predecessors always kind of kept to a script how popes are supposed to act. Pope Francis, the first thing he did was he kind of put down the scripted remarks that either he or his aides made for him, prepared for him and just talked to people, very much engaged with the people in front of him. And even some of the this kind of storyline that he was a liberal because he said, who am I to judge? It was very personal. His way of dealing with people was dealing with them as a particular person in front of him at the moment. It wasn't, you know, this category of people. So it wasn't the gay people, it was a gay person that he would always refer to. I think that impressed an awful lot of people. He was extremely genuine. He didn't quote other papal documents very often. He quoted the gospel. And I think that made a deep impression on people who are not Catholics as well.
- [16:48]
Aline McBoul
Now, for those onlookers from near and afar, the Church globally has been mired in the egregious scandal of child abuse. And I know his predecessor, people will know his predecessor, Pope Benedict xvi, Joseph Ratzinger, faced a lot of accusations that he was part of. Those who perhaps one might say didn't cover up but turned a blind eye. Others might say the former rather than latter. Setting that aside, what is Pope Francis record on this?
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David Willey
Well, you know, maybe today is not the day to speak ill of the now dead Pope, but I would just say briefly that there's a mixed record under his pontificate of how he dealt with the abuse scandal and its fallout and the COVID up I think the Pope very clearly wanted to get the church beyond the way that it was dealing with it. He set down some very strict and clear protocols that unfortunately were not always followed even by himself. But I think Pope Francis realized that the way to deal with this scandal and with all other problems in the church was not to put a band aid on it, but to get to the very bottom, to the very heart of it. And I think he tried with great intensity and seriousness to get to the bottom. And just as you know, this was not just something that we have to punish the people who committed abuse today and move on. It was, let's get to the bottom of the culture that produced this. Was he successful? You know, historians will have to make that judgment.
- [18:23]
Ella Bicknell
Robert Mickens talking to the BBC's Nicky Campbell. And that's all from us for now. But there'll be a new edition of the global news podcast on the death of Pope Francis later. If you want to comment on this podcast or the topics covered in it, you can send us an email. The address is globalpodcastbc.co.uk you can also find us on X@BBC World Service and use the hashtag globalnewspod. This edition was mixed by Ben Andrews and the producers were Daniel Mann and Alison Davies. The editor is Karen Martin. I'm Ella Bicknell. Until next time. Goodbye.