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Pope: 'I will not debate war with Trump'
00:28:44
Trump has accused the pontiff of being 'weak' on crime and 'terrible for foreign policy'
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Janak Jalil
this is the global news podcast from the BBC World Service. I'm Janak Jalil and at 15 hours GMT on Monday 13th April, these are our main stories. Pope Leo has responded to scathing criticism from Donald Trump by saying he has no intention of debating with the US President but will continue to speak out against war. A US Blockade of the Iranian coastline is coming into force as Tehran warns of retaliation. Hungary's incoming Prime Minister Peter Mojo has promised to usher in a new era for the country which he said had become the poorest and most corrupt in Europe. Also in this podcast we need to
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Lucas Ye
design like something original for the astronauts to use to indicate zero gravity.
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Janak Jalil
How a plushie toy designed by an eight year old became part of the Artemis Moon mission. In what has turned into an extraordinary spat between the world's most powerful man and the first American head of the Roman Catholic Church. Pope Leo has said he has no fear of the Trump administration and plans to continue speaking out against war. This comes after Donald Trump lashed out at the Pope over his opposition to U. S Immigration policy and the war in Iran. The U. S President accused the pontiff of being, quote, weak on crime and terrible for foreign policy and uploaded an AI generated image of himself dressed as Jesus curing the sick, before later telling reporters that he is, quote, not a big fan of the Pope.
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Donald Trump
We don't like a pope that's going to say that it's okay to have a nuclear weapon. We don't want a pope that says crime is okay in our cities. I don't like it. I'm not a big fan of Pope Leo. He's a very liberal person and he's a man that doesn't believe in stopping crime. He's a man that doesn't think that we should be toying with a country that wants a nuclear weapon so they can blow up the world. I'm not a fan of Pope Leo.
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Janak Jalil
The Pope has described Mr. Trump's threat to destroy Iranian civilization as unacceptable. The speaking en route to another mainly Muslim country, Algeria, a visit that has been described as an attempt to build bridges between the Muslim and Christian world. Pope Leo spoke about why he felt compelled to speak out.
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Pope Leo
I do not look at my role as being political or politician. I don't want to get into a debate with him. I don't think that the message of the gospel is meant to be abused in the way that some people are doing. And I will continue to speak out loudly against war, looking to promote peace, promoting dialogue and multilateral relationships among the states to look for just solutions to problems. Too many people are suffering in the world today. Too many innocent people are being killed. And I think someone has to stand up and say there's a better way to do this.
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Janak Jalil
Pope Leo's visit to Algeria kicks off a 10 day tour of Africa, one of the fastest growing regions for the church and home to a fifth of the world's Catholics. Our global religion correspondent, Lebu Diesco told me more about the row that that's threatening to overshadow his visit.
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Lebu Dhis Echo
The tensions between the Trump administration and Pope Leo have been going on for quite some time, but more recently they've centered around the war. And we saw, for example, on Palm Sunday, he was very pointed, didn't name the Trump administration or Donald Trump, but said Jesus does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them. He used his Easter message to urge world leaders not only to work towards peace, but actively pointed out people that prefer conflict to trying to resolve things peacefully. So this has been coming for quite some time and I suppose we've seen Donald Trump and his administration really kind of lean into the support of conservative Catholics. There are a number of very high profile conservative Catholics within the administration. J.D. vance, the vice president, for example. So for Donald Trump, the conservative Catholic vote is an important one. And I guess for him this is partly why he might be speaking to this at the moment.
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Janak Jalil
And a lot of people were very puzzled about President Trump making that expletive laden threat against Iran on Easter Sunday, ending with the words praise be to Allah. This is alarming Republicans, given that they rely so much on the Christian vote.
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Lebu Dhis Echo
I think that consistently there have been some Christians that have been able to say, look, we look past some of what Donald Trump says and his behavior. We're not looking at him to be a priest. We're looking for him to enact the policies that we want. With that said, even for those Christians, conservative Christians, the timing of it, Easter Sunday, and the language and, and that praise be to Allah was very jarring for a number of people.
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Janak Jalil
And Lebu, this row is threatening to overshadow Pope Leo's visit to Algeria, the first papal visit to the mainly Muslim nation at the start of an African tour.
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Lebu Dhis Echo
Well, ironically, one of the themes of his stop in Algeria is the dialogue with the Islamic world. And he will be visiting the Great Mosque of Algiers. That'll be an important moment. He'll also stop at the Basilica of Our lady in Africa, which is a place of prayer and pilgrimage for Muslims and Christians. It is a bit of a chicken and egg situation because I suppose the Vatican would say it only will overshadow it if the media keeps giving it the importance that we are giving it. With that said, it is difficult when you have such heated comments from certainly one of the most powerful men in the world and one of the most powerful religious leaders in the world.
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Janak Jalil
Lebu Dhis Echo as we record this podcast, the US is about to launch its own blockade of the crucial oil route in the Middle east, the Strait of Hormuz. The US military says the blockade will only apply to ships that go through Iranian ports. This has once again led to oil prices rising above a hundred dollars a barrel. Tehran has choked off global energy supplies since the start of the US Israeli war on it by preventing most tankers traveling through the strait. Its response to the US counter block was to call it piracy and to say it would not surrender to threats. This all comes after direct high level talks between the US and Iran in Pakistan over the weekend, which ended without any deal being reached and with just days to run on the two sides. Fragile ceasefire. Leila Nathu spoke to Nicholas Hopton, who was the UK ambassador to Iran from 2016 to 2018. How will President Trump's blockade work?
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Nicholas Hopton
The understanding that I have of the proposal is that the US will stop any ships passing through the Strait of Hormuz. That have taken money or paid money to the Iranians. So that will affect a large amount of shipping which might be not directly connected to Iran, but has perhaps paid some sort of toll or levy to the Iranians because they are now of course de facto in control. And listening to a US admiral retired yesterday, he suggested that it would take a huge amount of US Naval assets in order to make an effective blockade. And generally it doesn't seem a very clear proposal because it is puzzling how a proposal to close the Strait of Hormuz is meant to open it.
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Leila Nathu
What will be the response from Iran to this naval blockade?
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Nicholas Hopton
The initial response was to say that they would not accept a US naval blockade of the Strait. The way I think they will be interpreting it, like many, is that the announcement is actually due to the President's frustration that the talks between the US and Iran on Saturday in Pakistan did not produce immediately a deal on the American terms. The hope must be that J.D. vance and his Iranian interlocutors do manage to return to talks and then in due course of negotiations, sooner rather than later. And that this question of a blockade may be just a distraction for a few days, but equally it could lead to an escalation and a breakdown in the ceasefire and a return to full on war.
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Leila Nathu
So you think there is still a path towards a negotiated settlement here?
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Nicholas Hopton
There has to be. Before the war, the Strait of Hormuz was not part of such negotiations. Now it will be an essential part of any negotiations because Iran has de facto control over the Straits of Hormuz.
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Leila Nathu
But could disruption to Iran's own oil exports cause enough damage to its economy that it feels significantly under pressure to come back to the negotiating table over time?
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Nicholas Hopton
Perhaps, but certainly I don't think it's a short term silver bullet to get Iran to do exactly what the United States wants. Iran does rely on its oil exports, mainly to China. The Iranian economy is in a very bad state. But at the same time, I don't think turning off Iran's oil exports through the Strait of Hormuz will immediately cause a significantly different situation. It will just increase hardship for the Iranian people. And the regime is resilient and ruthless and they are perfectly capable of taking a lot of pain for their people.
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Leila Nathu
You mentioned China and the impact of a squeeze on Iran's oil exports on China. Is there a more vocal response now from China if they start to really feel the effects of a US blockade?
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Nicholas Hopton
Quite possibly. And then the question is, would they put pressure on Iran, I suppose, to comply to the US demands. I can't see that happening. I think Chinese are feeling very comfortable that the US Is making a mess of its war with Iran. Also. They are probably quite pleased that the fact that so many US Military assets have been taken to the Gulf means that those assets aren't in the South China Sea and which obviously has implications with the question about Taiwan. But I think the Chinese will probably feel the need to get more involved if a blockade actually becomes reality. And the US Navy does stop pretty much all shipping going through the Strait of Hormuz, which will obviously impact on China, it will impact on the United States as well, and on Europe, and particularly on Asian economies.
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Janak Jalil
That was the former British ambassador to Iran, Nicholas Hopton. But while the world's eyes are once again focused on the Strait of Hormuz, the number of executions inside Iran is reported to have risen sharply. A joint report by two NGOs says that the Iranian authorities executed more than 1,600 people last year, the highest number since 1989. And they warn that the regime may use capital punishment even more extensively this year after its crackdown in January in which thousands of peaceful protesters were gunned down. Here's our Middle east analyst Sebastian Usher.
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Sebastian Usher
Most of the executions last year were for murder or drug offenses, as is the usual pattern in Iran. The Norway based Iran human rights group says number was almost 70% more than for 2024. The figure has been rising significantly in the year since the mass demonstration sparked by the death of a young Kurdish Iranian woman, Mahsa Amini, while in the custody of the morality police in 2022. The number of executions is never completely clear as the Iranian authorities don't disclose official figures. A number of Iranian activist organizations keep a tally with the Iran human rights group, verifying each death with at least two sources. The group says that the rate of execution goes up when the feels under threat and that the aim is to forestall internal opposition by instilling fear in the population. Almost all executions are carried out inside prisons, but public hangings did also increase in 2025. There were some executions last year for protesters or alleged spies, but that figure could be considerably higher this year in the wake both of the mass anti government protest in January and the war with the US and Israel. Hundreds of people who were detained during the protest remain at risk of deaths, sentences and execution, activists say. That is of course without counting the thousand shot dead by the security forces during the demonstrations themselves.
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Janak Jalil
Sebastian Usher and we have more on this on our YouTube channel. Just search for BBC News on YouTube and you'll find Global News Podcast in the podcast section. There's a new story available every weekday still to come in this podcast, the Philippines accuses China of using cyanide to poison the waters in a contested part of the South China Sea.
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Ambar Sanitarajan
These Philippine soldiers were not able to catch any fish in case if they catch any fish it could be contaminated. And the second reason is also destroying the corals nearby. This is poisoned water.
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Janak Jalil
This is the Global News podcast. Hungary's incoming Prime Minister Peter Modjo, says Sunday's elections, in which he defeated the populist pro Kremlin nationalist Viktor Orban, saw history in the making. He vowed to usher in a new era to draw a line under Mr. Orban's 16 years of rule, proclaiming that Hungary's place was in Europe. Saying there was no time to waste, Mr. Mojjor called on the president to convene the newly elected parliament as soon as possible.
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Peter Modjo
Our country has no time to lose. Hungary is in trouble in more than one ways. It's been robbed, it's been betrayed, it's been indebted, it's been devastated. We became the most impoverished and the most corrupt country in the eu. And I would like to repeat what I said last night, that Tisaf government will represent every Hungarian, also those who did not vote for Tisapati. We will represent every Hungarian within the country, but also across the borders.
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Janak Jalil
Congratulations have poured in from across the European Union after Peter Moggio's landslide victory. The head of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen said Hungary had chosen Europe. Britain's Prime Minister Keir Starmer described it as a historic moment not only for Hungary, but for European democracy. And Germany's Chancellor Friedrich Merz said Mr. Moggior's victory showed that democratic societies are still resilient against Russian propaganda.
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Peter Modjo
Right wing populism suffered a major defeat in Hungary yesterday. And this has implications beyond Hungary's borders. Hungary is sending a very clear message against right wing populism around the world. In that sense, yesterday was a good day.
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Janak Jalil
So how was Peter Modja able to win more than 2/3 of the seats in Parliament given Mr. Orban's stranglehold on the media and the political system? A question for our Budapest correspondent, Nick Thorpe.
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Nick Thorpe
I think there are many sort of key explanations, all equally valid for Peter Magyar's enormous victory in this election. One was the fact that perhaps the most important of all was that he's also coming from the center right, liberals and more left minded people. Whenever they've criticized Viktor Orban in the past, Mr. Orban has very skillfully and was able to turn that to his own advantage and say, turn around and say to the Hungarian people, look, these foreigners are interfering with us again. We are true patriots.
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Pope Leo
We.
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Nick Thorpe
Viktor Orban in a way had the monopoly of national feeling until now. And Peter Madhyar coming also from the right, but as a center right rather than a nationalist or a far right politician. He was able to criticize Mr. Orban from a right wing perspective, from a conservative perspective, from a national perspective. It was interesting watching him on his endless national tours. He'd always arrive walking through the crowd carrying a Hungarian tricolor flag in his hand. So he managed to sort of break Mr. Orban's monopoly on what it is to be Hungarian, what it is to stand up for national interests, for Hungarian national sovereignty. That's a key issue in all of this.
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Janak Jalil
So how will Peter Moggio change Hungary given the fact that he's had this landslide victory and significantly a 2/3 majority in parliament?
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Nick Thorpe
It's very much about the 2/3, Janet. Viktor Orban in the last 16 years has reshaped Hungary in his own image. He changed the electoral system. He changed the economy, he changed the way that the Constitutional Court judges are elected. He put his own person at the head of the Supreme Court. And indeed, if Tiszir and Peter Magyar had not won a two thirds, they would have had to continue to govern in a way inside the House that Viktor Orban built. With this 2/3 majority, they can change different aspects. They can get rid of the very party loyal main state prosecutor. They could start to restore balance in the judiciary, end the political interference in the judiciary. These are all promises that Peter Madhya made in his, his campaign and in the Tisapati program.
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Janak Jalil
And what does this mean for Hungary's relationship with the rest of the eu? Donald Trump's victory in the US seemed to give the populist right a new momentum. Does Mr. Orban's defeat mean the tide is shifting?
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Nick Thorpe
It could mean that and certainly the right in Europe have lost an iconic figure in Viktor Orban. Of course, they haven't lost him. You know, he's still around, he's only 6, 62 years old. But I think we could see a change in the right wing because Viktor Orban's message to them, the lesson he taught his fellow nationalists across Europe was radicalize yourselves, don't be afraid of radical nationalism, because as you can see, in my case, it's successful. So I think we might see those nationalist parties across Europe going more moving, perhaps a bit more to, to the center, de radicalizing themselves. Because at the end of the day, Viktor Orban's experiment with illiberal democracy, or whatever we try to call it, has, for the time being at least, failed.
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Janak Jalil
Nick Thorpe in Budapest. Well, the Ukrainian government was one of the first to congratulate Peter Mojo for his election victory. President Zelensky said his country was ready to work with Hungary after a bruising relationship with Mr. Orban, who has repeatedly blocked support for Ukraine, including a vital EU aid package. I asked our correspondent in Kyiv, Sarah Rainsford, if the Ukrainians were hoping this would change.
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Sarah Rainsford
Yeah, they're certainly hoping here that a big block on EU support and speedy EU support Ukraine will be removed. I was speaking someone last night who was saying that Hungary had basically been a spoke in the wheels of the EU for so long and that was having a direct effect on Ukraine because Viktor Orban had been blocking additional sanctions on Russia, he'd been blocking assistance to Ukraine. So I think people here aren't under massive illusions. They don't think that suddenly absolutely everything is going to change. They don't know Peter Mag very well. They're not entirely sure what he stands for, but they do know that he's not Viktor Orban and they know precisely what Orban has meant for Ukraine. And it has been problem after problem. I mean, people here, when I've spoken to them about the relationship, they see Viktor Orban as essentially Putin's man in Europe. And they say that, you know, although the real enemy is Vladimir Putin and he's still in place, losing Viktor Orban from the sort of geopolitical stage can only be good news for Hungary. So certainly a lot of relief here today. I won't say they're celebrating, but certainly a lot of relief that as far as Ukraine is concerned, this is a very, very positive result.
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Janak Jalil
As you say, Peter and Roger, still a bit of an unknown quantity for many people. What have you been able to glean about his attitude to the war in Ukraine?
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Sarah Rainsford
Well, I don't think we're going to see a complete reversal in the sense that Hungary is suddenly going to say, sure, we're going to help with military aid, we're going to send troops to some kind of support force. Crane that's a position that would, for example, Italy doesn't do either. So, you know, I don't think we're going to see a massive change on that front. But I do think the mood music will be completely different. I think that the kind of complete block on aid is going to be removed. I think Petty Manager has suggested he's going to be far more flexible, far more sympathetic to Ukraine in that sense, and that's what people are looking for. Is interesting to see he has made a few comments already saying that he would be open to dialogue with Russia, but not as friends. And when you talk to Ukrainians, what they see is that they believe Viktor Orban was very, very close to Russia and that was why he was so detrimental to Ukraine. So essentially, I think the message from people here is things can only get better. They couldn't possibly get worse because this
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Janak Jalil
all comes at a very difficult time for Ukraine with more Russian attacks following the end of a niester truce.
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Sarah Rainsford
We were up in Kharkiv, just next to the Russian border. As that truce was supposed to be in place, it wasn't very firm. There were violations on both sides, but certainly as it ended, the sirens went off and the drones and the missiles started firing again. So for Ukraine, it is a difficult time and certainly the this will be a help, will be a boost.
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Janak Jalil
Sarah Rainsford in Kyiv. The Philippines has raised the alarm that Chinese fishermen may be using cyanide to poison the waters around a disputed atoll in the South China Sea, one of the world's most hotly contested regions. As we record this podcast, there's been no reaction yet from China to these claims. Our global affairs reporter Ambar Sanitarajan told us more about them.
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Ambar Sanitarajan
This is a contested area. Both countries have a claim and there is a reef over which the Philippines deliberately landed Second World war era ship. And this is where a few the Filipino troops, they are staying there. The reason why the Philippines did this was to assert their sovereignty. And the Second Thomas Shoal, this has been a bone of contention. There have been clashes even before. Now the Philippines is saying that basically some of these Chinese fishermen will come around. They were pouring cyanide. These are accusations into the water surrounding the shoal, basically. So what it means is that these Philippine soldiers were not able to catch any fish in case if they catch any fish it could be contaminated. And the second reason is also destroying the corals nearby. This is poisoned water. And in the long run, what the Philippine officials are saying is that the Chinese were hoping that this old ship will corrode and then it will automatically disintegrate. That is one of the reasons why they are pouring this. And they've been noticing this for the last one year. There have been different occasions. They have taken some bottles from water and they've tested these waters surrounding the area and it contains cyanide. And it is a very dangerous sign. That is why they had a big announcement today about these efforts by Chinese fishermen. I mean, accusing them of pouring cyanide.
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Janak Jalil
If true, that would be devastating for the marine wildlife there, let alone for any humans that tried to eat the fish they caught. What's the Chinese response been, if any?
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Ambar Sanitarajan
The AFP news agency and other journalists have tried to contact the embassy in Manila, the Chinese embassy in Manila who have not, they have not responded. But it is not only this occasion. There have been other clashes in this particular area in the last few years where it was quite common incident when Chinese coast guard vessels ram into the Filipino vessels. And also resupplying these troops is a big challenge for the Philippines. You know, they, some of the ships, they have been blocked by the Chinese once they had to deliver food by helicopter. So it is a challenge. But they don't want to give up because giving up that area means then China will take over this reef immediately. And this is a very contested area and a busy shipping lane and that's why the Philippines want to stay there.
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Janak Jalil
Ambarasan ETI Rajan when the four Artemis astronauts splashed down this weekend after their trip around the moon, a small soft toy called Rise also returned with them. It's a smiling moon wearing an Earth baseball cap. But it wasn't up there just to be a mascot or for the astronauts to play with. It was used as a zero gravity indicator for videos and was designed by an 8 year old boy from California called Lucas. Yay. He won a competition run by NASA and a crowdsourcing company. Luke Jones had a chat with Lucas and his mother Clara.
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Lucas Ye
We need to design like something original for the astronauts to use to indicate zero gravity.
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Nick Thorpe
Got you. So what did you decide to do? Tell us about, tell us about your design.
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Lucas Ye
It's this little moon plushie that they rise and is representing Earth by taking Apollo 8. And the visor of the cap is the deep space between Earth and the moon. Orion constellation on the visors representing the Orion. And the rockets on both sides are representing the past and future mission, moon missions. And on the back there's Neil Armstrong's footprint he made on 1969 on Apollo 11.
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Nick Thorpe
You guys got to experience a bit more of the Artemis 2 mission than other people did. You actually got to go and see the astronauts returning.
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Clara (Lucas's mother)
Yeah, we. Let's see that. I think Thursday morning that we got a invitation from NASA Ames of saying that, hey, we would like you to be part of our VIP to come and watch the Flash down with us. And we're like, oh my goodness, this is, you know, such a surprise and delight. And so long story short, that we got there sitting down with real scientists, aerodynamics, you know, heat shield expert and real engineers who worked on the many aspects about the re entry and celebrating every single moment. Start From I think 4:33 of the separation to the re entry around 4:50 ish. It's very, very exciting.
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Nick Thorpe
And Lukas, do you think you maybe have a future working in space? Were you thinking I'd like to do this as a job one day?
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Lucas Ye
Yeah. I would like to work at NASA and probably design a mission to Mars or a manned mission even further to one of Jupiter's moons.
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Sarah Rainsford
And we know actually of course that
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Nick Thorpe
the astronauts came back safe and sound. But what about Rise? What happened to Rise, Lucas?
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Janak Jalil
Do we know where he is?
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Lucas Ye
A commander named Reed Wiseman tied Ryze to his water bott.
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Nick Thorpe
Fantastic. So we made it back.
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Lucas Ye
Yeah.
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Janak Jalil
That was Lucas Ye and his proud mother Clara. And that's all from us for now. If you want to get in touch, you can email us@globalpodcastbc.co.uk and don't forget our sister podcast, the Global Story, which goes in depth and beyond the headlines on one Big story. This edition of the Global News Podcast was mixed by Nick Randall. The producers were Muzaffa Shakir and Oliver Berlau. The editor is Karen Martin. I'm Janak Jalil. Until next time. Goodbye.
- [31:29]
BBC Announcer
At the BBC we go further so you see clearer with a subscription to BBC.com and the BBC app, you get unlimited articles and videos ad free podcasts, the BBC News channel streaming live 24. 7 plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries from less than a dollar a week for your first year. Read, watch and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to BBC.com and the BBC app. Find out more at BBC.com unlimited.