Paul Adams (3:16)

You get the impression that in some ways things are moving forward. That was the message after the previous RAL in Abu Dhabi when Ukrainian officials were emphasizing that in terms of the sort of military to military conversations, progress was being made. And you get exactly the same impression now that when the two militaries get together and talk about the mechanics of figuring out the line of contact, how a ceasefire might be implemented and so forth, then there is genuine progress. But of course, none of that really amounts to anything until there's a political commitment by both sides to do a deal. And at the moment, the Ukrainian view is that we simply haven't seen that from Vladimir Putin and that he remains as he has been all along, committed to a version of a peace with Ukraine, which essentially amounts to Ukraine's capitulation. I think the mood was summed up quite well by a Ukrainian official who was in Geneva who was asked about how the talks had gone and said they were difficult but they were productive. Unless you have super hyped expectations. I think that pretty much sums it up.

Oliver Conway (4:28)

Super hyped expectations that the fighting might stop. So I guess the fighting is going to continue until something changes.

Paul Adams (4:39)

Yes. And of course there nothing much does change because that contact line has been changing very, very, very slowly. I mean, it's a glacial move forward by the Russian side really for the last couple of years. Interestingly, there has been a development in the last couple of weeks which some Ukrainians are getting quite excited about. And that is because of a decision by Elon Musk's Space X Corporation to deny access to the Starlink satellite Internet terminals for Russian troops, essentially switching off the entire system and then switching back on only according to a list of units approved by the Ukrainian military. The effect of that has been that significant bits of Russia's front line where the Starlink terminal was playing quite an important role in terms of targeting and coordinating movements. They are now operating, as one Ukrainian put it to us, slightly blind and slightly deaf. And there are some signs, and I really, really don't want to overstate this, there are some signs that the Ukrainian milit has been able to take advantage of this temporary phenomenon in Expanding what they call the gray zone or the kill zone. That is the kind of dangerous, no man's land between the two sides. The Ukrainians feel that they have the ability here, the opportunity, perhaps only a brief opportunity, to make some progress on the battlefield and to push the Russians back. This has only been a couple of weeks, and we don't really know whether this is working out quite as the Ukrainians hope yet, but it is something that could change the dynamics a little bit.

Oliver Conway (6:17)

Paul Adams in the Ukrainian capital Kyiv, The European football authorities are investigating claims of racism at Tuesday's Champions League match between Real Madrid and Benfica. The game was stopped after Vinicius Jr. Said he had been abused by the Benfica player Gianluca Prestiani, who denies the allegation. The Brazilian forward had just put Real a goal up, which proved to be the winner. Our sports presenter Ollie Foster told me what happened.

Ollie Foster (6:43)

Very, very ugly scenes during and after this match. This is the first leg of a playoff between these two sides to get into the last 16. And as you said, Vinicius Jr, one of Real's star players, scored an absolutely wonderful opening goal that did prove to be the difference between the two sides on the night. He then went to a corner flag and did a little samba dance, something that Jose Mourinho, which we'll get to in a. At greater length. The Benfica manager said that Vinicius Jr. Was inciting the crowd, just raising the heat on this. And before the match restarted, as Vinicius Jr. And his teammates went back into their own half, he reacted very, very strongly to what he said was something said to him by the Argentinian midfielder Gianluca Prestiani, who was saying something too. You could see this on the TV camera saying something to Vinicius Junior. But then he lifted his shirt over his mouth and that is what sparked this response from Vinicius Jr, who then ran to the referee, Francois Lettaxier from France, who then applied UEFA's racism protocol that was brought in a few years ago. He made the cross signal with his arms to say that the match will be paused because there had been an incident of racism. Now, this usually happens when things happen from the stands, supporters or chanting of a racist or discriminatory nature. But this was clearly an allegation from Junior that to his face, Prestiani had racially abused him. The game stopped for about 10 minutes or so as the referee assessed whether it could continue, whether Vinicius Jr. Was in the right frame of mind. Vinicius Jr. Actually did play the full 90 minutes when the game resumed, Prestiani continued playing, although he was substituted late on. But a real febrile atmosphere for that last half an hour or so of the match with the home crowd in Lisbon really on Vinicius Jr's back.

Oliver Conway (8:45)

And of course, tensions were raised further by a statement from Benfica saying the Real Madrid players couldn't have heard what they claimed to have heard. And those comments that you mentioned from Jose Mourinho.

Ollie Foster (8:55)

Yeah, lots of fallout on social media. Benfica putting out a video, a different angle of this alleged incident. Now, Aurelian Shomeni and Kylian Mbappe had corroborated Vinicius Jr's claims of what was supposedly said. Benfica said, look, they were nowhere near, so they couldn't possibly comment if anything had been said. Vinicius Jr. Put something out on social media saying racists are above all cowards. They need to put their shirts in their mouths. I've seen this all before, Prestiani saying, I want to clarify that I did not direct racist insults to Vini Jr. He must have misunderstood. And Jose Mourinho has said that Vinicius Jr. Incited the incident from the very start with those goals, celebrations, something that he always does. Although he did say he listened to both players, what they had to say and wasn't believing either of them and was just staying out of it and was going to be independent on that regard. A lot more fallout to come from this incident, I think.

Oliver Conway (9:51)

Oliver Ollie Foster there. Investigators looking into the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, mother of the American television presenter Savannah Guthrie, say they believe she's being held somewhere close to her home in Arizona after being the victim of a targeted kidnapping. Nancy Guthrie, who is 84 years old, disappeared more than three weeks ago. David Willis sent us this report. Officials announce new leads in the desperate search for Savannah Guthrie's mom. Could a new piece of evidence be the break law enforcement needs?

David Willis (10:23)

In the Catalina foothills of northern Tucson, a massive search is underway for a missing grandmother. How big a case is this massive?

Oliver Conway (10:32)

Okay.

David Willis (10:33)

84 year old Nancy Guthrie hasn't been seen since the 1st of February. The mother of the popular morning TV presenter Savannah Guthrie. Her disappearance was headline news even before a ransom demand was received for $6 million in Bitcoin.

Oliver Conway (10:50)

We don't see a lot of kidnappings, right? Especially this is like a new age kidnapping.

David Willis (10:55)

Jimmy Williams runs a true crime YouTube channel and is one of the many vloggers and live streamers who've traveled here to chronicle every twist and turn in the investigation.

Oliver Conway (11:07)

Usually people want a Million dollars in a bag dropped off somewhere, and then they put it there, and then the police run up and grab them. This is today with Savannah Guthrie. Good morning, everybody, and welcome to today On a very special Monday morning, the.

David Willis (11:20)

Reassuring face of morning television. Savannah Guthrie has found herself at the center of a very public nightmare, vacillating from hope to dread in a manner familiar to many of her interviewees down the years. This time, though, instead of asking the questions, she's the one awaiting answers.

Oliver Conway (11:41)

We want to hear from you, and we are ready to listen.

David Willis (11:46)

Messages posted to social media have been the family's only means of making contact with the kidnappers as a ransom deadline came and went with no sign of their mother. Days later, however, detectives landed their biggest break in the case so far. Chilling images from a doorbell camera showing a masked man on Nancy Guthrie's doorstep minutes before she went missing. Was this a targeted kidnapping?

Oliver Conway (12:14)

You know, I believe that, but the.

Paul Adams (12:16)

Evidence and the case as it unfolds.

Oliver Conway (12:19)

Will prove that or prove something else. But, yes, I believe it was.

David Willis (12:22)

Sheriff Chris Nanos is leading one of the biggest and most unusual investigations of its kind this country has ever known. Where do you think Nancy Guthrie is?

Oliver Conway (12:34)

I think she's somewhere here in our community, locally.

David Willis (12:38)

What makes you think that?

Paul Adams (12:39)

I just do.

Oliver Conway (12:40)

I don't know why. I don't have any evidence to prove that, But I just believe that she's somewhere here locally.

David Willis (12:48)

As he spoke, detectives were once again combing the dried brush around Nancy Guthrie's home in a desperate search for clues.

Oliver Conway (12:56)

Excuse me.

David Willis (12:57)

Can you tell us what you're looking for? Any leads in the case so far?

Ollie Foster (13:01)

I think.

Oliver Conway (13:01)

I can't talk about it. I'm sorry.

David Willis (13:03)

Their presence sending reporters and camera crews into a frenzy.

Oliver Conway (13:07)

There's a lot more people here than it looks like on tv.

David Willis (13:10)

Kelly Hyams lives nearby and felt compelled to stop by and say a prayer alongside the growing array of flowers.

Oliver Conway (13:18)

Nancy could be anyone's mom. She's the same age as my mom. She's the same height. They have the same hair.

Professor Steve Peters (13:24)

They live alone.

Oliver Conway (13:25)

I mean, she's is. So she resembles my mom so much.

Paul Adams (13:30)

All cases have a progression, right?

Oliver Conway (13:33)

A starting point.

David Willis (13:34)

The sheriff's initial insistence that everyone was a suspect in this case prompted feverish speculation online about the possible involvement of a family member. Sheriff Nanos now says any such doubts have been firmly laid to rest.

Oliver Conway (13:50)

We really put them through the wringer. We not just interview them. We take their cars, we take their houses, we take their phones.

Paul Adams (13:59)

All this stuff they have been 100% cooperative with us.

Oliver Conway (14:03)

They are victims. They are not suspects. It's been two weeks since our mom was taken.

David Willis (14:13)

Savannah Guthrie's latest appeal to her mother's kidnappers seems designed to appeal to their better nature and. But as the days pass with no word of her whereabouts, any hope of an emotional homecoming is giving way to a growing sense of dread.

Oliver Conway (14:30)

And it is never too late to do the right thing. Savannah Guthrie ending that report. By David Willis. Curling is normally considered a genteel sport, but it's been rocked during these Winter Olympics by allegations that the Canadians who are in the running to win gold have been cheating by touching the stone when they're not allowed to. Canadians back home are shocked. Integrity in sport is important, even if you have to call it on yourself. As a curler myself, I think that's like, you should know better, especially if.

Professor Steve Peters (15:01)

You'Re in the Olympics.

Oliver Conway (15:02)

It's kind of fun. Brings a little bit more people to watch curling, all the drama, because it is a pretty dry sport. Yeah. Us Canadians, we are not supposed to do these things. I don't know why it's so hard to be sportsmanlike.

Paul Adams (15:18)

Sports is all about fair play, sportsmanship, and without that, it's not sport anymore.

Oliver Conway (15:23)

So do I think the finger affects the rock? No, I do not. This is not going to affect the rock. Do I think we have to play within the rules? Yes, as long as we are willing to correct it. I don't think it would affect our image overall. I hope not. I don't like the way Mark Kennedy handled himself, so. And. But we do have a reputation of being pushovers and being always so nice. So this kind of maybe is a good thing of reputation, I think.

Professor Steve Peters (15:45)

Canada is known to be a fair play country.

Oliver Conway (15:47)

It's one event, one individual. If they cheated, then they should be sanctioned.

James Kopnell (15:52)

If they didn't, then let it be, I guess.

Oliver Conway (15:55)

Well, Canada's curling team denies the accusations, but it's not the first Olympics where questions of fair play have been raised. So why do some athletes cheat? Professor Steve Peters is a consultant psychiatrist and author of the Chimp Paradox.

Professor Steve Peters (16:10)

I'd like to emphasise that for the vast number of athletes taking part, we highlight the small, very small minority who do cheat. So if you look at the research that's done on it, it boils down to whether people have integrity and morals. And if you've got somebody who hasn't got that, then if they're able to cheat and get away with it, they will. If those who have morals, then they regulate Themselves.

Oliver Conway (16:31)

So what if you don't have integrity and morals? The fact that you won by cheating is not going to bother you. So you want to win.

Professor Steve Peters (16:37)

Absolutely. And over the last 25 years was privileged to work in elite sport. I have dealt with people who have been caught and actually worked with them an interview and they're a mixed group again of people. Some have no regrets at all and they say it was worth it for the reward. And. And they also do justification. You know, it's like everybody does that. I just got caught. And you won't reach them because their moral stance isn't there. Whereas the people who have morals often say they were influenced either by their peers or it's an outsider, such as a coach. In a young person, particularly young people are influenced by parents. And then it gets very sad that their self image is defined by their sporting achievements. And so they've gone into sport without having that balance. And the work I often do with younger athletes is to try and give them their self image and defining themselves outside of the achievement.

Oliver Conway (17:28)

Okay, so what if that is all about giving them an edge? And if the edge is something that actually is outside the rules, that doesn't matter. It's a refinement.

Professor Steve Peters (17:37)

Exactly. And it's justified. So. And obviously you reach people who keep sticking with what they believe is the truth and everybody does it. I just happen to get caught.

Oliver Conway (17:46)

Do they see it as cheating?

Professor Steve Peters (17:48)

No, it's justified by saying that we're all trying to get an edge. And the idea is they see it and it's very bizarre. And I'm taking a severe stance to drive the point home. They see anything in life is okay, provided you don't get caught. They see it as being people who get caught are the weak ones. And the whole world is based around an immoral stance.

Oliver Conway (18:07)

How do you work with them? What do you. If you're actually working with somebody who has done something, you think, look, hey, that's outside the rules.

Professor Steve Peters (18:14)

I did quite a lot of work with the police looking at this for county lines. And I explained to them that when you're looking at the people they're dealing with, we have to divide people into two groups and that is those who have moral conscience. And we appeal to that and talk them through the idea that, you know, how are you going to feel having got this medal or whatever you're doing, and in county lines, how would you feel about the damage to people? You wake up their conscience and that generally they start to regulate and you help them do that. However, there will be a subgroup of people who do not have that. So there's no point in appealing compassionately to, you know, what are you doing to other athletes in this case, in which case you've got to state the rules that if you get caught, this is how people see you. That often affects them because their egos and narcissism comes in.

Oliver Conway (18:55)

Have you turned someone round?

Professor Steve Peters (18:57)

Yes, we're aware that somebody may be going down a route and yes, behind locked doors I've talked to them and woken up the conscience and as I explained, once you've done that, the person has self esteem.

Oliver Conway (19:07)

Professor Steve Peters talking to Sarah Montague. And still to come, who would have.

Chris Stokel Walker (19:14)

Thought that such an uninspiring, unemotional, frankly quite dull video would have managed to create this massive movement that we've seen.

Oliver Conway (19:23)

The first ever YouTube video page is saved for posterity. Bettering your business takes working with the best. With the James Hardy alliance, you gain access to leads, training, networking and support from the number one brand of siding in North America. Achieve new levels of success by joining.

Chris Stokel Walker (19:48)

The James Hardy Alliance.

Oliver Conway (19:49)

Today, if there was a big red.

James Kopnell (19:52)

Button that would just demolish the Internet, I would smash that button with my forehead.

Oliver Conway (19:58)

From the BBC, this is the Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life and all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the Global News podcast. A group of people deported from the United States arrived in Cameroon early this week. The deportations have raised questions about an agreement between the two nations. None of the migrants are reported to be Cameroonian. Several journalists covering the story, as well as a leading lawyer were detained in Cameroon on Tuesday. James Kopnell spoke to the detained lawyer, Joseph Awar Frou, who's advising some of the deported migrants.

James Kopnell (20:54)

I was actually detained between say 4pm and 7 and 8pm When I was released. Yes.

Oliver Conway (21:02)

This alongside several journalists including Randy Josar, works for the BBC from time to time.

James Kopnell (21:07)

Correct?

Professor Steve Peters (21:08)

Correct.

Oliver Conway (21:08)

On what grounds?

James Kopnell (21:10)

On the mayor grounds that they were on the location, the site where these deportees are being held.

Oliver Conway (21:17)

So that suggests this is a pretty sensitive issue for the Cameroonian authorities. What do we know? What do you know about the deportees?

James Kopnell (21:26)

I know that they have protective statuses in the United States and that most of them have been granted withholding of removal. What that means that that they have met a higher burden of proof that they are more likely than not to be persecuted from the countries from where they come from. And so under the 1951 UN Refugee Conventions and its protocols, they should be grandfathered everywhere they go as refugees, because they must have shown a credible fear and even gone beyond in courts in the United States to show that they would be persecuted on one of the five grounds. That's nationality, race, religion, membership in a particular social group, and political opinion. And these people had met those burdens and were granted those statuses. And just the mere fact that they are being sent to a third country and not to their country of origin presupposes that the United States recognizes not only its obligations by the Convention, but that these people will be persecuted and that they were at great risk of being harmed if they were returned to their own countries.

Oliver Conway (22:31)

Which countries are we talking about here?

James Kopnell (22:33)

We are talking variously about Ghana, we're talking about Senegal, we're talking about Angola, we're talking about Ethiopia, we're talking about Sierra Leone, Democratic Republic of Congo.

Oliver Conway (22:44)

And is it clear to you on what terms, under what agreement Cameroon is accepting these people?

James Kopnell (22:52)

Not at all. Not at all. In fact, I have written to the International Office for Migration here in Cameroon asking those specific questions, asking to know, you know, the contractual basis under which the United States and Cameroon have this arrangement and how the IOM comes in as an intermediary, these kind of contracts between nations is a sovereign right. That's above my pay grade to gauge that. But at least for public knowledge, for clarity, these are arrangements that are supposed to be in the public so that people should know what is going on. And even if they're treaty arrangements, then these treaties should be ratified by at least the parliament of Cameroon.

Oliver Conway (23:34)

And in terms of your clients, these people who have been deported from the US To Cameroon, what are you asking for on their behalf?

James Kopnell (23:41)

We're asking one, that the international community, especially the United nations, that's represented by the office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and then the International Organization for Migration at least recognized that these people are refugees, be granted the rights that are tender to refugees as granted by the 1951 conventions and its protocols and other regional legal instruments that protect refugees. And secondly, that because Cameroon has accepted these people as third country deportees, that Cameroon recognizes its obligations by international law to respect and protect these people as refugees. That's all we are asking for.

Oliver Conway (24:27)

Joseph Awafru talking to James Koppnell. One effect of rising temperatures across Europe is the arrival of a more hospitable environment for disease carrying mosquitoes. Researchers in Britain have been assessing the incubation time of the chikungunya virus in the Asian tiger mosquito and found the minimum temperature at which infections can occur is lower than previously thought. That opens up the possibility of the virus spreading across Europe. Dr. Stephen White from the UK Centre of Ecology and Hydrology worked on the study.

Chris Stokel Walker (25:01)

This is a virus transmitted by Aedes mosquitoes, so there are two mosquitoes that are principally involved, so it's Aedes aegypti, which is a more of a tropical species, and Aedes albopictus. Aedes albopictus, which is the Asian tiger mosquito, started invading into Europe, or at least discovered in Europe in 1979 in Albania. And it's been slowly making its way across Europe, moving with people and also because of climate change. But this mosquito has now really taken a foothold in places like France and Italy. And so as it's a transmitting vector of viruses, we can now see a change in the risk to people across Europe. And so chikungunya historically has not been in parts of Europe. This came up in 2010 in France, for example, there have only been a handful of cases. However, last year this rapidly changed.

Oliver Conway (25:56)

And the risks to people in Europe of catching chikungunya is going up because of two things. One, because temperatures across Europe are rising, but also because you've now established that the virus can be transmitted at lower temperatures. So therefore more of Europe is affected during more of the year?

Chris Stokel Walker (26:18)

Yes, absolutely. So what we've done is looked at the key components of how this virus can replicate within the mosquito itself, and that's incredibly temperature sensitive. And so what our research shows is that the thermal limit to this transmission is much, much lower than we previously thought. So that as a consequence, parts of northern Europe are more at risk. And also in southern Europe, the window of which there is risk will be much, much longer. So into now spring and also late autumn.

Oliver Conway (26:48)

And in terms of what people can do to protect themselves, clearly awareness of covering up, because I think these are mosquitoes that bite during the day. But in terms of a vaccine, is there one and how widely used is it?

Chris Stokel Walker (27:01)

The first and foremost line of protection is covering up. As you said, it's a daytime biter. Using insecticides on yourselves is really, really important. But yes, there are vaccines available. These are very new, but they have been approved in many parts of the world for further protection.

Oliver Conway (27:17)

Are there any particular parts of the population that are most at risk?

Chris Stokel Walker (27:21)

Yeah. So Those with comorbidities and the young and old. Typically, the disease itself is not a killer as such. It's more the fact that it's incredibly debilitating, so it creates arthritis like conditions which can in some people last for years.

Oliver Conway (27:35)

Dr. Stephen White talking to Layla Nathoo. The Internet page showing the first ever YouTube video has been saved for posterity by the Victoria and Albert Museum here in London. It'll be available for viewing from today. Uploaded in April 2005, it shows one of the YouTube founders, Javed Karim, on a trip to San Diego Zoo. The clip called Me at the Zoo has had more than 380 million views. Alright, so here we are in front of the elephants. The cool thing about these guys is that they have really, really, really long fronts and that's quite. And that's pretty much all there is to say. Well, the technology journalist Chris Stoeckle Walker told Justin Webb, it's a moment worth marking.

Chris Stokel Walker (28:25)

Yeah, 19 seconds that bequeathed 20 years plus of history that has transformed our lives. So who would have thought that such an uninspiring, unemotional, frankly quite dull video would have managed to create this massive movement that we've seen since. And obviously now YouTube is a monolith. It is replacing TV, it is replacing traditional forms of media. And increasingly we spend more of our time sat in front of the TV watching it on those sorts of smart TV apps, rather than through the phones and as it would have been way back in 2005, through our desktop computers.

Oliver Conway (29:01)

And the Watch page that is now in the possession of the Victorian Old Albert Museum. And I say it in the possession. It's difficult with digital things, isn't it? They've basically recreated it, is that right?

David Willis (29:13)

Yeah.

Chris Stokel Walker (29:13)

With the help of a design agency, they have basically replicated what it would have looked like not necessarily on that first day of YouTube either. They have taken a snapshot of it from December 2006. So the view and the look of it had adapted somewhat. But if you go back in time by looking at it through the exhibition, actually there are an awful lot of things that are very similar to the YouTube page that we would recognize now. So you have in the top left of the screen the video playing, the iconic scrubbing through that video that you can do to fast forward. You also have on the right hand side a range of related videos. Of course, now YouTube throws us into this endless torrent of videos and replays them constantly, war after the other. So very much a kind of relic of the past, but also recognizable, I think, to YouTube users these days.

Oliver Conway (30:01)

Technology journalist Chris Stokel Walker Schemo makes its debut at the Winter Olympics in Italy on Thursday. It's a cross between skiing and mountaineering and is the newest sport at the Games. Richard Hamilton has been finding out more. Hi, my name is Cam Smith. I'm from Crested Butte, Colorado in the usa. An official promotional film about Schemo for the Olympics in Milan and Cortina, it explains what attracts some of the world's top athletes to this grueling sport. You have to like that challenge and discomfort and pain of climbing the mountains, but instead of walking back down, you get to ski. I think it's so unique because of the climb and the descent and the creativity. In ski mo, the athletes sprint uphill with sticky material known as skins on their skis to provide traction. They then remove the skis, put them in their backpacks and continue climbing on foot before a further uphill section on skis. Once they reach the top of the course, they remove the skins and ski downhill with slightly wobbly legs to the finish line. The race lasts about three minutes. Skimo has a long history and its origins can be traced back to army training and an early Olympic event known as military patrol. Andy Bryce is from the British Mountaineering Council. It spawns from what we would call military patrol races, which have been around for hundreds of years in the Alps. And as a sport, that's been serious. It's been around since sort of the early 90s. It goes back to the sort of roots of mountaineering. So when you see people doing ski mountaineering, it really looks like they're out in the hills and they're using different modes of transport to get across the terrain in front of them. It's really genuinely very exciting. There's lots of different bits to it, lots of different skills. You have to be a really good, competent downhill skier. You have to be really competent on the mountain terrain. You have to be incredibly fit. So almost, you know, hill runner type fitness to get up the steeps and then also the transitions are incredibly important as well. I think what people watching it will find most exciting is when you see people transitioning from uphill to downhill and they're taking the skins on and off their skis. The speed they have to do that is quite incredible. Military patrol was actually an event at the very first Winter Olympics in 1924 in the French resort of Chamonix. It later morphed into the more commonly known biathlon, a combination of cross country skiing and rifle shooting, which needs muscly legs a steady hand and a low heart rate. Thursday's schema races will take place in the resort of Bormio in the Dolomites. Richard Hamilton. And that's all from us for now, but we'll be back very soon. And don't forget our sister podcast, the Global Story, which looks in depth at a single story. This edition of the Global News Podcast was mixed by Jack Wilfan and produced by Paul Day and Oliver Berlau. Our editor is Karen Martin. I'm Oliver Conway. Until next time. Goodbye.

James Kopnell (33:14)

If there was a big red button that would just demolish the Internet, I would smash that button with my forehead.

Oliver Conway (33:22)

From the BBC, this is the Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life and all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.