The Global Story: The disgraced UK doctor behind autism misinformation

Summary

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The Global Story: The Disgraced UK Doctor Behind Autism Misinformation

Podcast: Global News Podcast (BBC World Service)
Host: Tristan Redman
Guest: Adam Rutherford (science journalist)
Date: September 28, 2025

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Overview

This episode delves into the enduring impact of autism misinformation sparked by Andrew Wakefield, a British doctor whose discredited and fraudulent research in the late 1990s ignited global vaccine skepticism. The story is revived in light of recent unsubstantiated claims from US President Donald Trump and Health Secretary RFK Jr. about a supposed link between Tylenol, vaccines, and autism. The episode examines the history, media influence, personal consequences, and continued mainstreaming of these debunked ideas.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Resurgence of Autism Misinformation in 2025

• [02:02]–[03:45]

  • US President and RFK Jr publicly claim a link between Tylenol used in pregnancy and autism, echoing old vaccine/autism claims.

  • Trump also revisits the idea that the MMR vaccine (measles, mumps, rubella) should be administered in separate doses—a direct legacy of Wakefield’s theory.

    “These words have a very specific history...there's no way the US President says these words in 2025 without a man called Andrew Wakefield.”
    — Tristan Redman [03:31]

2. The Original Wakefield Study and Its Impact

• [05:20]–[07:52]

  • Wakefield publishes a small 1998 study in The Lancet, describing a correlation (not causation) between gut problems, autism, and the MMR vaccine.
  • During the press conference, Wakefield makes a direct and unsupported link to autism—something not present in the actual study.
  • His off-script remarks capture media attention, establishing the so-called “MMR-autism” link as a powerful public narrative.

  “He made a direct association between the triple vaccine...and the development of autism. Now, other people on the panel were shocked by this and freaked out.”
  — Adam Rutherford [06:36]

3. Media Amplification and Political Fallout

• [07:52]–[09:26]

  • The story grows exponentially, dominating the UK and international press across political divides.
  • Even high-profile figures like the Prime Minister and his wife felt pressured and chose not to comment on their son’s vaccine status, which fueled public anxiety.

  “No one in the press, across the mainstream press, was untouched by this. No one was skeptical enough...across left and right.”
  — Adam Rutherford [08:19]

4. Societal Drivers: Fear, Diagnoses, and Vulnerability

• [09:26]–[11:15]

  • Autism diagnoses were rising, leading parents to seek answers for their children’s conditions.
  • The coincidence in timing between vaccination schedules and the emergence of autism markers created fertile ground for misinformation.
  • Declines in vaccine uptake followed, driven by escalating fear.

  “Vulnerable families with autistic children were developing into communities...what we saw was a massive increase in the popularity of this idea that had been seeded and popularized by Andrew Wakefield.”
  — Adam Rutherford [10:08]

5. Debunking and Scandal: Wakefield’s Research Unravels

• [11:15]–[14:29]

  • Investigative journalist Brian Deer uncovers that Wakefield’s data was manipulated and fraudulent.
  • Wakefield had serious ethical breaches: misreporting diagnoses, collecting blood samples unethically, and failing to disclose a financial interest (he held a patent for a single vaccine).
  • The UK General Medical Council leads the longest-ever investigation, resulting in the paper’s retraction and Wakefield being struck off the medical register.

  “The data that's actually in the paper is not supported by the case studies themselves...Wakefield had performed extremely unethical behaviours.”
  — Adam Rutherford [11:58]
  “He had a patent on single vaccines at the time, which was not stated...in academia we refer to this as a conflict of interest.”
  — Adam Rutherford [12:29]

6. Wakefield’s Reinvention in America

• [14:30]–[16:12]

  • After losing his medical license, Wakefield relocates to Texas and becomes a celebrity in the anti-vaccine movement.
  • He tours parent support circuits, gaining followers and presenting himself as a champion for desperate parents.

  “He offers hope to vulnerable parents...a charming man at the front saying, ‘You’ve been abandoned by science...and I think there are answers, and I’m going to devote my life to helping you answer them.’ So he was a messianic figure.”
  — Adam Rutherford [15:02]

7. Wakefield’s Surreal Celebrity & Connections

• [19:31]–[24:37]

  • Wakefield enters the American media and social circuit, including relationships with supermodels and public speaking events with celebrity introductions (notably Elle Macpherson).
  • Adam Rutherford recounts a BBC interview with Wakefield, highlighting his media savvy and ability to deflect challenging questions.

  “[Wakefield] knew how to talk to me because he knew what I was going to ask...He used techniques...to divert the question or answer a different question.”
  — Adam Rutherford [21:45]

  “There’s an extraordinary clip of Elle Macpherson introducing him at some kind of public event...She is describing him as...the most famous person on stage.”
  — Adam Rutherford [24:02]

8. From Fringe to Mainstream: Linking with Trump and RFK Jr.

• [24:37]–[28:12]

  • Wakefield is spotted at Trump’s inaugural ball, marking the merging of conspiracy spaces with mainstream politics.
  • His rhetoric shifts from anti-triple vaccine to generalized vaccine denialism, appearing repeatedly on platforms like the Alex Jones podcast.
  • President Trump and RFK Jr. publicly endorse ideas rooted in Wakefield’s debunked theory.

  “With the advent of Trump [these ideas] became mainstream.”
  — Adam Rutherford [26:13]

  “RFK Jr. has been a vaccine denialist for many years...he has been directly influenced...to see RFK Jr. standing behind Trump...is again surprising, but kind of sadly predictable.”
  — Adam Rutherford [27:32]

9. Reflections: A “Zombie Idea” that Won’t Die

• [28:12]–[30:40]

  • The episode is bookended by two press conferences: Wakefield’s in 1998 and Trump’s in 2025.
  • The “MMR hoax” is described as one of the most significant biomedical crises in modern history, fundamentally undermining public trust in vaccines and causing real-world harm.

  “The MMR hoax, I think it's valid to call it a hoax, is the most significant biomedical issue probably in my lifetime...”
  — Adam Rutherford [28:47]

  “Those ideas, as you...used was zombie ideas. They didn’t die. But not only did they not die, they thrived and they went mainstream. And so that is the most heartbreaking aspect of this story.”
  — Adam Rutherford [30:40]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [04:07] Adam Rutherford:

  “There is literally none. It is one of the most studied medical interventions in the history of medicine, the history of humankind, and there is literally zero evidence that vaccines given to children are causative or even associated with the development of autism.”

• [15:04] Adam Rutherford, on Wakefield’s appeal:

  “He offers hope to vulnerable parents...a charming man at the front saying, ‘You’ve been abandoned by science, who doesn’t have answers for your problems. And I think there are answers, and I’m going to devote my life to helping you answer them.’ So he was a messianic figure.”

• [28:47] Adam Rutherford, on the legacy:

  "What happened in 98 at that press conference is a singular point which lit a touch paper which 20 odd years later has culminated in this bizarre statement by the President...Those ideas, as you used the term, were zombie ideas. They didn't die. But not only did they not die, they thrived and they went mainstream."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:02 | Presidential press conference revives debunked Tylenol and MMR-autism claims
• 05:20 | Wakefield’s original Lancet study & off-script press conference
• 07:52 | How media and public figures amplified the idea
• 09:26 | Societal context: rising autism diagnoses and parental vulnerability
• 11:15 | Investigation, fraud, and Wakefield’s downfall
• 14:30 | Wakefield’s new identity in America and celebrity status
• 19:31 | Adam Rutherford’s interview with Wakefield; media tactics
• 24:37 | Wakefield’s rise in American conspiracy and celebrity circuits
• 26:13 | Integration into US political mainstream; Trump, RFK Jr., Alex Jones
• 28:12 | Reflections on the enduring influence of the “zombie idea”

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Conclusion

This episode provides a compelling, richly detailed chronicle of how a fraudulent paper by Andrew Wakefield reshaped public health conversations worldwide. The show exposes how misinformation, amplified by media and abetted by political opportunists, has survived decades to influence new generations. It sets the story in personal, medical, and societal contexts, closing with a warning about the persistence and mainstreaming of “zombie ideas” that continue to endanger public health.

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Transcript

[Adam Rutherford]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Tristan Redman]

And I'm Tristan Redman. And we're here with a new weekly bonus for you from the Global Story podcast.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

The world order is shifting. Old alliances are fraying and new ones are emerging. Some of this turbulence can be traced to decisions made in the United States. But the US Isn't just a cause of the upheaval. Its politics are also a symptom of it.

[Tristan Redman]

Every day we focus on one story looking at how America and the world shape each other.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

So we hope you enjoy this episode. And to find more of our show, just search for the Global Story wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

[Tristan Redman]

If you've got kids or you're thinking about having kids or, you know, people with kids, basically, if you're most people, there's a story that's probably come up over and over again this week. So taking Tylenol is.

[Adam Rutherford]

Not good.

[Tristan Redman]

I'll say it, it's not good. In an extraordinary press conference on Monday, standing next to his health secretary, RFK Jr. The US president shared unproven claims about the relationship between Tylenol and autism. Tylenol during pregnancy can be associated with with a very increased risk of autism. Doctors say Tylenol, which is known as acetaminophen or paracetamol in Europe, is the safest drug for pregnant women to take for fever and pain and that not treating a fever can be dangerous for both the mother and the baby. And by the way, I think I can say that there are certain groups of people that don't take vaccines and don't take any pills that have no autism. And while the Tylenol bit has dominated the headlines, Trump has reiterated another thoroughly disproved theory. The mmr, I think, should be taken separately. This is based on what I feel the mumps, measles and the three should be taken separately. These words have a very specific history and it can be traced back to a disgraced British doctor in the 1990s. In fact, you could argue that there's no way the US President says these words in 2025 without a man called Andrew Wakefield. I'm Tristan Redman and this is the global story today on the show, the British backstory of a zombie idea that won't die. Before we fully dive into this, I think it's worth saying at the outset that science has found that there is no link between autism and childhood vaccines.

[Adam Rutherford]

There is literally none. It is one of the most studied medical interventions in the history of medicine, the history of humankind, and there is literally zero evidence that vaccines given to children are causative or even associated with the development of autism. I can say that with absolute confidence, the confidence of someone who understands how clinical trials are performed.

[Tristan Redman]

This is science journalist Adam Rutherford and over the years he's done a lot of reporting about vaccine and autism misinformation.

[Adam Rutherford]

The specific wording and the specific question that Trump appeared to be stating about the triple vaccine, measles, mumps and rubella being given in one batch is a 27 year old claim that was first articulated by Andrew Wakefield in 1998.

[Tristan Redman]

Well, we're hoping that today you can fill in the bizarre backstory of how this idea got into Donald Trump and RFK jr's heads. And the story of this one former doctor. Take us back to the late 90s. Where does it all start?

[Adam Rutherford]

It starts in the Royal Free Hospital, which is in northwest London. Andrew Wakefield at the time was a doctor who was interested in gastrointestinal problems in children in a case study that was published in 1998. So that's a small paper with a small number of children. He was the lead author on this paper, which was not actually about autism at all, but it was an association between gut problems and the triple vaccine of mmr. So it's published in the Lancet. And to be clear, the Lancet is one of the best, most respected medical journals, not just in the UK, but in the world. The Lancet and the Royal Free organized a press conference and a few members of the local press of the broadsheet newspapers came to this. In that press conference, Wakefield made a direct association between the triple vaccine, which is MMR given in one injection for measles, mumps and rubella, and the development of autism. Now, other people on the panel were shocked by this and freaked out.

[Tristan Redman]

You mean at the press conference itself?

[Adam Rutherford]

At the press conference itself, because it wasn't in the paper and this wasn't something that had been discussed amongst co authors on this paper and the press picked up on this.

[Tristan Redman]

Before you go to the press, can you explain to me just very quickly please, what did the research in the paper actually say and where did it end and where did Wakefield going off script begin?

[Adam Rutherford]

The paper itself was. It was a case study of small number of patients who all in the paper described as having severe autistic symptoms and various gastrointestinal, so gut problems associated with it. And it was based on, according to the paper, Wakefield's study of these children as they were coming through his clinic as a gastroenterologist, not as an autism specialist or a vaccine specialist, but as a gastroenterologist. And it's a correlative link between gut problems and the triple vaccine itself. What he said in the press conference afterwards was completely going off piste, but it turned out was the beginning of this specific idea that was articulated by Trump on Monday.

[Tristan Redman]

So you mentioned the press. How big was this story when it broke after the press conference?

[Adam Rutherford]

Well, it grew and it grew and it grew.

[Andrew Wakefield]

The vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella given to most children over the age of one has been linked with autism.

[Adam Rutherford]

Scientists at the Royal research is published today in the Lancet.

[Tristan Redman]

It was based on an initial study.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Of only 12 children.

[Tristan Redman]

But the doctors have since seen many.

[Adam Rutherford]

More and it became the dominant press story for medicine for Maybe the next five, maybe even 10 years. No one in the press, across the mainstream press, was untouched by this. No one was skeptical enough, I think, to really challenge it. And that was on the left and right wing press. Various champions in the press, columnists in particular, latched onto it as a serious potential issue, despite the lack of evidence. There was a time when you might recall where the Prime Minister at the time, Tony Blair and his wife Sherry Blair, refused to answer the question about whether one of their sons had been vaccinated.

[Tristan Redman]

Look, we have made our position clear on disclosing details of medical treatments our.

[Adam Rutherford]

Children have had, right at the very outset, we have produced, opted not to reveal that information, which is perfectly within their rights, but it did nothing to dampen down the brewing storm.

[Tristan Redman]

Why was there so much fear of autism at this moment?

[Adam Rutherford]

Well, it was growing in diagnosis. And so this is a period where the incidence of autism in young children was on the up. It's also a time where communities and people with autistic children who were looking for answers, medicine did not have and does not have answers as to what are the direct causes of autism to this day. But vulnerable families with autistic children were developing into communities and information spreading between them. And in those unregulated spaces, what we saw was a massive increase in the popularity of this idea that had been seeded and popularized by Andrew Wakefield a few years before. Now, you've got to remember as well that autism diagnoses occurs when children are in their three or four or five, and that is also coincident with the time when certain vaccine regimens are given to children. It's also coincident with the development of key markers for. For autistic spectrum behaviors, which are things like the development of complex language. So you see a group of parents who are in a potentially vulnerable space with young children who are not following the trajectory of what we term typical development or normal development, who are suddenly given this, oh, well, maybe this was the thing that caused it. And so it grew. It grew and it became an enormously popular idea. And you saw a huge decrease in the uptake of the triple vaccine in this period.

[Tristan Redman]

When do serious doubts about Wakefield's research start to become public?

[Adam Rutherford]

They begin to creep out during this period. So it's a long investigation, primarily led by one journalist called Brian Deer at the Sunday Times, who was a beat journalist, an investigative journalist with no specific interest in medicine or vaccines, but he's quite dogged in pursuing Wakefield. And then the whole story begins to unravel because it turns out that the evidence in the paper itself was probably fraudulent.

[Tristan Redman]

Well, I wanted to ask you about that because you said not just incorrect, you actually said fraudulent. Can you explain that, please?

[Adam Rutherford]

Yeah, sure. So the data that's actually in the paper is not supported by the case studies themselves. So some of the children, I think I'm right in saying that some of them had been diagnosed before they had received the vaccine. There were further stories of how Wakefield had performed extremely unethical behaviours, such as going to children's parties and paying children to get blood samples off them.

[Tristan Redman]

What? Can you explain that to me? That's extraordinary.

[Adam Rutherford]

Well, it is extraordinary. There's not that much more to explain. It's an example of a grotesque breach of medical ethics, bypassing all of the standard, very, very strict and necessarily strict bioethical pathways that researchers are bound to in order to study patient cohorts. And he clearly wasn't doing those things. But it turned out in the full investigation that he had a patent on single vaccines at the time, which was not stated. Now, in academia we refer to this as a conflict of interest which needs to be stated up front before you publish.

[Tristan Redman]

And had he stated conflict of interest?

[Adam Rutherford]

Never had done. That was only revealed years later when the thorough investigation was underway.

[Tristan Redman]

So the suggestion is that he was criticizing the triple vaccine where three vaccines were combined into one, potentially because he had an interest in creating another vaccine where those three were separated from each other, is that right?

[Adam Rutherford]

He did have a patent on a single vaccine at the time that in a press conference, he stated that the triple vaccine was possibly causative of autism. So eventually, following a lot of the Sunday Times reporting, the General Medical Council, which is the United Kingdom's medical regulator, begins what is still the longest investigation, the longest and most thorough investigation in their history, into the claims made by Wakefield and how they were counted by the press. And the ultimate outcome of that is that the paper is retracted, all but one of the authors, which is Andrew Wakefield, I think I'm right in saying, withdrew from it. Wakefield himself is struck off. His doctor's license is revoked in the uk, so he is no longer a doctor, according to the body that recognises medical practitioners.

[Tristan Redman]

Mm. Okay.

[Adam Rutherford]

It sort of didn't matter, though, because he's already left the country by this point.

[Tristan Redman]

Where is he?

[Adam Rutherford]

He's in Texas at this point, working in an autism clinic.

[Tristan Redman]

And how has that happened when he's been struck off the medical registry?

[Adam Rutherford]

He went to America, where things are much less tightly regulated. Medicine tends to have state regulations for these types of things. And he was popular. There are plenty of autism clinics around the world who do sign up to these sorts of ideas that he was supporting. He has become something of a celebrity.

[Tristan Redman]

How does he get famous?

[Adam Rutherford]

Well, it's front page news, right? The question that he is purporting to answer is front page news in the press, centred in the uk, but then it goes all over the world. He enters this sort of circuit, celebrity circuit of people who are vaccine skeptical or vaccine deniers. He's got charismatic, he's charming. He spent a lot of time talking to audiences of parents and I think he did something which I've witnessed, I've been to some of these talks years ago when he was still in the uk, and he offers hope to vulnerable parents, particularly vulnerable female parents. Most of the audiences were women who are at some of the most difficult times in their lives with children who are severely disabled by autistic behaviors and diagnoses. And there's a man, a charming man at the front saying, you've been abandoned by science, who doesn't have answers for your problems. And I think there are answers, and I'm going to devote my life to helping you answer them. So he was a messianic figure.

[Tristan Redman]

Up next, how Wakefield makes it big in Magaland and goes from disgrace to supermodel girlfriend to Trump's presidential inaugural ball.

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[Adam Rutherford]

That's right. This was 2011, I think, and he's in Texas at this point working in an autism clinic. So as is journalistic practice, we fired off an email to the generic front desk of the Texas organization that we knew he was working at and said we are doing a program about the MMR story and Andrew Wakefield. And often when you do those sort of right to reply emails, you never get anything back or you know, they just ignore you or they take weeks. About 15 minutes later we get an email. My producers get an email from Wakefield himself saying that in two weeks time I'm gonna be in the UK on Tuesday. I'm free from, you know, one till three. I'd happily come in and talk to you.

[Tristan Redman]

Can I just say, journalistically speaking, these are things that never happen.

[Adam Rutherford]

Never happened. Right. So we then, in some of the happiest professional times of my life, we locked ourselves in a room with piles and piles of papers. It was like a scene in all the President's Men when you're being, you know, Woodward and Bernstein. And it was, it was so much fun for me.

[Tristan Redman]

Did you have a board on the wall with bits of string attached with little pins?

[Adam Rutherford]

I think it was before that became a meme. But basically, yeah, you know, you cover every single angle. Rehearsing the interview, right. And then on the day we had this whole thing choreographed. But it became very apparent to me something which I hadn't really considered clever and informed though I hope my questions were he'd heard them all before.

[Andrew Wakefield]

I accept none of the findings of the General Medical Council, nor did my legal counsel. And we were most surprised at their findings.

[Adam Rutherford]

And he'd answered them all before and had, well rehearsed answers to every single one of those questions. We know from the findings of the General Medical Council that at the time that you were conducting this study, you were receiving funding from litigation against the triple vaccine. How do you respond to that?

[Andrew Wakefield]

Well, in 1996, I was approached by lawyers to ask if I would help in assessing whether there were merits to a case against the MMR vaccine manufacturers.

[Adam Rutherford]

He used techniques that I think we're much more familiar with now, which is to divert the question or answer a different question to the question you've just asked.

[Andrew Wakefield]

And I thought about it very hard and I looked at the prospects for these children. They were some of the sickest children I've ever seen in my life. Nobody wanted to believe that they had a vaccine induced problem. We didn't know. But it certainly needed, or, you know.

[Adam Rutherford]

Whataboutery, the technique of saying, I'm not going to address this question, but what about this, which appears related but may not be, but you felt confident enough to stand up and discuss work that was unpublished and that wasn't in the paper that was published that had a major effect on public confidence in vaccines. That doesn't seem like very good scientific practice to me.

[Andrew Wakefield]

No, it was supported by an analysis, a formal analysis of the published literature, and that's what I based my position.

[Adam Rutherford]

He knew how to talk to me because he knew what I was going to ask because he knew the types of scientific challenges that were part of his, his grand narrative. There's another thing which is worth mentioning, which is a celebrity was growing at this time as well in various bizarre, I mean, genuinely bizarre interactions. He became associated at one time with a model. She was the bra model for the original Wonder Bra adverts.

[Tristan Redman]

Do you mean Elle macpherson?

[Adam Rutherford]

No, that comes later still, in an even more bizarre twist.

[Tristan Redman]

So, hang on, he has a long history with models?

[Adam Rutherford]

Apparently. So again, it was one of those bits of the story where you go, right, that seems absolutely surreal, but it was reflective of the fact that there was a celebrity culture around this idea. Later still, who does he hook up with? Elle macpherson.

[Tristan Redman]

Elle macpherson, Extraordinary.

[Adam Rutherford]

One of the great supermodels of this era.

[Tristan Redman]

Is she into, shall we say, alternative medicine?

[Adam Rutherford]

Yes. And sees him, as many did in this sort of celebrity circuit, in. As a hero of the voiceless.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Well, good evening, everybody.

[Adam Rutherford]

Nice to be up here.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

I feel very honored to be sharing the stage with you.

[Adam Rutherford]

There's an extraordinary clip of Elle McPherson introducing him at some kind of Public event.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

I, I first heard about Andy in 1998. I was living in London and I.

[Adam Rutherford]

Had, where she is describing him as, as the, that should be the most famous person on stage rather than this, you know, extremely famous supermodel that you had pictures on your, on your bedroom wall of.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

It's quite unusual. We walk down the street and more people recognize him than me, which goes to show you how long my career is.

[Tristan Redman]

When does he, when does he get into Donald Trump's orbit?

[Adam Rutherford]

Trump has made no statements at this point in his first presidency or the first run for president about health or medicine in particular. But the Wakefield klaxon for the interested goes off when he is seen at Trump's inaugural ball.

[Tristan Redman]

That's surprising to me because although we all know a certain amount now about the anti vax community, it certainly wasn't something that was on my radar really in 2016, 2017. So is it surprising to you that he turns up at Trump's inauguration?

[Adam Rutherford]

Well, it was definitely surprising, but I suppose it's looking at the networks. You mentioned the conspiracy board with the red string between all of the parties involved. Wakefield has entered this world and has continued to thrive off this world. Incidentally, worth pointing out that in the first instance, back in the 90s, he wasn't anti vaccine per se, he was anti triple vaccine. But as he proceeds through the years and into the 2010s and onwards, he keeps going down that line until eventually all vaccines are bad. But you see his media appearances in places that then were the preserve of conspiracy theorists growing in popularity. But with the advent of Trump became.

[Andrew Wakefield]

Mainstream, what's really going on, what the real science is. Dr. Wakefield, thanks for joining us. Alex, thank you very much. Great pleasure to be here.

[Tristan Redman]

Absolutely. Well, tell us about your research.

[Adam Rutherford]

So he appeared on the Alex Jones podcast many times.

[Andrew Wakefield]

Research into safety concerns about vaccines, because that's what this is about. It's about taking the messenger and shooting him because it doesn't fit.

[Adam Rutherford]

I've watched many interviews with Wakefield and if he's talking to serious journalists, he's quite circumspect and quite medical sounding. But if he's talking to Alex Jones, he'll say things which appear to be the opposite of what he said in, in other interviews or much more extreme versions, get it wrong.

[Andrew Wakefield]

This is the government and the pharmaceutical industry telling us what we can say, what we can see, what we can think, and ultimately what we will inject into our children's bodies and our own. There is something gone horribly wrong with democracy in this country.

[Adam Rutherford]

But I suppose this is just a growing conspiracy ecosystem that Trump's election tapped into because this now struck off. Dr. Minor, doctor from the UK is now at the inaugural ball with Elle Macpherson of the President of the United States.

[Tristan Redman]

Well, on Monday, when we saw Donald Trump make this announcement about Tylenol, just behind him was standing RFK Jr. Who's now the Health Secretary in the United States. What is Wakefield's relationship with RFK Jr and how significant is it at this stage?

[Adam Rutherford]

RFK Jr has been a vaccine denialist for many years. Whilst I don't know whether you know how RFK has interacted directly with Wakefield, I think it's reasonable to say that he has been directly influenced just because Wakefield was such a significant player in the evolution of these types of ideas in the states, but also them going mainstream. So to see RFK Jr standing behind Trump when Trump is parroting things that Wakefield specifically said more than 20 years ago is again surprising, but kind of sadly predictable.

[Tristan Redman]

Adam, when we look at the complete span of this story, it strikes me that it's kind of bookended by two press conferences. On the one hand, in 1998, you have this press conference with Andrew Wakefield announcing his study for the Lancet Medical Journal. And then we have at the other end, Donald J. Trump on Monday, flanked by RFK Jr. Making this announcement on autism. When you look at that span and all the installments in between, what are your reflections on it?

[Adam Rutherford]

I think the MMR hoax, I think it's valid to call it a hoax, is the most significant biomedical issue probably in my lifetime, but certainly in the last 30 years. What happened in 98 at that press conference is a singular point which lit a touch paper which 20 odd years later has culminated in this bizarre statement by the President. I find this hard because vaccines, along with sanitation and clean water, are the most effective health interventions in human history. The evidence for that is unequivocal, robust, undeniable, whatever word you choose. What we saw during the Wakefield saga is a drop off in vaccine uptake and as a result, an increase in suffering in individual people. But the long term repercussions were the huge growth of vaccine denialism and the spread of this fallacious, this specious idea, which, I don't know, turns 10 years ago, maybe we thought this was confined to the Internet or to social media. Those ideas, as you, the term you used was zombie ideas. They didn't die. But not only did they not die, they thrived and they went mainstream. And so that is the most heartbreaking aspect of this story.

[Tristan Redman]

Thank you so much, Adam.

[Adam Rutherford]

Pleasure talking to you.

[Tristan Redman]

That was Adam Rutherford. And that's it for the global story for today. Thanks for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please take a second to rate us. Wherever you're listening, Cheerio.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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