The Global Story: The fight for the Arctic

Summary

Global News Podcast: The Fight for the Arctic

Release Date: January 12, 2025
Host: Valerie Sanderson
Produced by: BBC World Service

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Introduction

In the episode titled "The Fight for the Arctic," the BBC World Service's Global News Podcast delves into the escalating geopolitical tensions surrounding the Arctic region. Host Valerie Sanderson engages with experts Jonathan Beale, BBC’s defense correspondent, and Tim Marshall, journalist and author of Prisoners of Geography, to unpack the strategic significance of the Arctic and the emerging power dynamics involving the United States, Russia, NATO, and China.

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Geostrategic Importance of the Arctic

The Arctic is rapidly transforming from a remote, icy expanse to a vital geopolitical hotspot. Valerie Sanderson highlights the region's wealth in natural resources, including oil, gas, zinc, gold, and copper, making it a lucrative area for competing nations. Tim Marshall emphasizes the economic allure, stating:

“[07:53] Tim Marshall: ... there's more than a thousand trillion cubic feet of natural gas ... 90 billion barrels of oil. ... the melting ice makes extraction easier.”

Moreover, the melting ice is opening new maritime trade routes, such as the Northern Sea Passage, potentially reducing shipping times from Asia to Europe by nearly half. Jonathan Beale adds:

“[06:26] Jonathan Beale: ... if you were going from Asia via the Suez Canal to Europe, it would take you 37 days. Through the Northern Sea Passage, 23 days.”

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Tensions Between Russia and NATO

Russia’s expansive military presence in the Arctic has raised alarms among NATO allies. Oliver Berkman notes Russia's strategic maneuvers:

“[10:19] Oliver Berkman: ... Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov vowed that Moscow would defend its interest in the Arctic both in diplomatic and military terms.”

The recent expansion of NATO, with Finland and Sweden joining, has further strained relations. Valerie Sanderson points out:

“[14:01] Valerie Sanderson: ... the full-scale invasion of Ukraine has changed relationships in the Arctic and the West.”

Jonathan Beale explains the military buildup:

“[12:52] Jonathan Beale: ... Norway is building supply lines ... towards Finland and Murmansk in Russia, the Kola Peninsula, where the key defense, including their nuclear defenses, are based.”

The NATO alliance is committed to protecting its Arctic members, advocating for freedom of navigation. Valerie Sanderson quotes a NATO representative:

“[10:28] Oliver Berkman: ... we want to uphold the international rules based order which includes freedom of navigation.”

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China’s Role in the Arctic

Despite not being an Arctic nation, China has shown significant interest in the region. Jonathan Beale discusses China's strategic maneuvers:

“[19:07] Jonathan Beale: ... China's observer status at the Arctic Council and its scientific base on Svalbard highlight its growing involvement.”

China’s collaboration with Russia includes joint military exercises, raising concerns in the West. Oliver Berkman differentiates the motivations:

“[20:19] Oliver Berkman: ... China's interest is more mercenary, economic, whereas Russia's is both economic and strategic.”

Recently, the US intercepted Russian and Chinese fighter jets together near Alaska, marking a notable escalation:

“[20:19] Valerie Sanderson: ... two Russian and two Chinese fighter jets were detected, tracked, and intercepted by the US.”

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Climate Change and Security

Climate change profoundly impacts the Arctic, exacerbating geopolitical tensions. Tim Marshall underscores the global implications:

“[26:07] Tim Marshall: ... climate changes in the Arctic contribute to rising sea levels globally, affecting places like Bangladesh.”

The melting ice not only facilitates resource extraction and new trade routes but also disrupts local ecosystems and communities. Jonathan Beale highlights environmental concerns:

“[25:35] Jonathan Beale: ... villages are relocating due to eroded coastlines, and polar bears are moving further north.”

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Unintended Consequences and Hybrid Warfare

The Arctic's fragile environment and strategic importance make it susceptible to unintended conflicts and hybrid warfare tactics. Oliver Berkman warns of potential sabotage:

“[22:13] Oliver Berkman: ... fiber optic cables have been cut in Svalbard, possibly by Russian underwater craft equipped to disrupt communications.”

Such actions, while below the threshold of open conflict, can significantly destabilize regional security. Jonathan Beale draws parallels with other conflict zones:

“[23:59] Jonathan Beale: ... minor incidents in the Arctic can have major implications, similar to tensions in the South China Sea.”

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Looking Ahead: Cooperation or Conflict?

Despite rising tensions, there remains a recognition of the need for cooperation to manage the Arctic’s challenges. Valerie Sanderson poses critical questions about future relations:

“[25:35] Valerie Sanderson: ... could the end of the Ukraine conflict lead to trust-building in the Arctic?”

Tim Marshall remains cautiously optimistic but realistic about the long-term prospects for détente:

“[26:07] Tim Marshall: ... if a pragmatic leader emerges in Russia, cooperation on climate change and other issues could resume.”

The importance of maintaining open communication channels and leveraging forums like the Arctic Council is emphasized as essential for preventing conflict and addressing global environmental concerns.

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Conclusion

"The Fight for the Arctic" paints a complex picture of a region at the crossroads of environmental transformation and intense geopolitical rivalry. As nations vie for control over its resources and strategic routes, the balance between competition and cooperation will be crucial in determining the Arctic's future stability and its role in global affairs.

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Notable Quotes:

• Tim Marshall [07:53]: "There's more than a thousand trillion cubic feet of natural gas ... 90 billion barrels of oil."
• Jonathan Beale [06:26]: "Through the Northern Sea Passage, 23 days."
• Oliver Berkman [10:19]: "Moscow would defend its interest in the Arctic both in diplomatic and military terms."
• Jonathan Beale [19:07]: "China's observer status at the Arctic Council and its scientific base on Svalbard highlight its growing involvement."
• Oliver Berkman [22:13]: "Fiber optic cables have been cut in Svalbard, possibly by Russian underwater craft."

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For more in-depth analysis and updates on global issues, subscribe to the Global News Podcast wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Transcript

[Oliver Berkman]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk. Discover how to lead a better life in our age of confusion.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Enjoy this BBC audiobook collection written and.

[Oliver Berkman]

Presented by best selling author Oliver Berkman.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Containing four useful guides to tackling some.

[Oliver Berkman]

Central ills of busyness, anger, the insistence on positivity and the decline of nuance. Our lives today can feel like miniature versions of this relentless churn of activity.

[Valerie Sanderson]

We find we're rushing around more crazily than ever. Somewhere when we weren't looking, looking. It's like busyness became a way of life.

[Oliver Berkman]

Start listening to Oliver Epidemics of Modern Life Available to purchase wherever you get your audiobooks. Hello, this is the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service.

[Valerie Sanderson]

I'm Valerie Sanderson with your weekly bonus.

[Oliver Berkman]

From the Global Story, which brings you a single story with depth and insight from the BBC's best journalists. There's a new episode every weekday. Just search for the Global Story wherever you get your pods and be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a single episode. Here's my colleague Katya Adler.

[Valerie Sanderson]

During Donald Trump's first time in office, when he said he wanted to acquire Greenland, many dismissed this as hyperbole, a nonsense even. But now, days away from taking office a second time, he seems on an expansionist role, taunting Canada it should become the USA's 51st state, that he wants America to reacquire the Panama Canal, and insisting that Greenland must become a US Property for strategic security. He said people really don't even know.

[Oliver Berkman]

If Denmark has any legal right to it, but if they do, they should give it up because we need it for national security. That's for the free world.

[Jonathan Beale]

I'm talking about protecting the free world.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Greenland, the biggest island in the world, is an autonomous Danish territory rich in oil, gas reserves and other natural resources like zinc, gold and copper. It sits between the US and Russia and and is already home to a US Military base. Its geostrategic significance is very clear. It's also hugely important in terms of climate conversations, and its melting ice is also opening up new, profitable maritime trade routes, a development catching the attention of countries further afield, like China. With all these competing interests, could we be looking at a brewing cold war in the Arctic or, as some are calling it, an ice war? It made headlines all over the world this week. Donald Trump refused to rule out the use of military force or economic coercion against NATO ally Denmark to wrest control of Greenland. And as he was doing that, his son popped over to the territory he claimed for an innocent tourist visit, just.

[Jonathan Beale]

Here as tourists, but just really excited to be here.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Awesome country. The scenery coming in was just spectacular. But to those in the know, Arctic security and the battle for influence there has been a growing concern for a number of years. Mr. Trump is certainly not the only one with a keen interest there. Conveniently, before he returned his focus to Greenland here on the global Story, we were already preparing an episode for you on the role of China and Russia in the Arctic. I sat down with the BBC's defense correspondent Jonathan Beale and Tim Marshall, journalist and author of Prisoners of Geography and the Future of Geography. Let's start with some basic geography, Tim. Which countries are Arctic countries? So when we're talking about the Arctic.

[Jonathan Beale]

Circle, we tend to look at a map and there it is up at the top of the map. A much better map to understand the geography of it is looking top down onto it as that circle and then you see those countries coastlines on the rim of the ocean itself. So more than half of the coastline is Russian. And then there's land in parts of Canada, Finland, Greenland, Iceland, Norway. Even the circle comes down into parts of Sweden and of course America with the Alaska part of it.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Not everyone gets a chance to go to the Arctic and experience the conditions there. But both of you have. Jonathan, I think you've been to every part of the Arctic, is that right?

[Oliver Berkman]

No, I haven't been to the Russian bit, which is probably the most interesting bit, but I've been to the Norwegian part of the Arctic, the Finnish part of the Arctic. I've also been to Alaska where the US has some military bases, missile defense systems based there.

[Jonathan Beale]

First threat of the system now showing impact location of Chicago. We are engaging at this time.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Director MCS reports a second quick alert.

[Oliver Berkman]

This is the control room where America would launch its ground based missile interceptors. Director, comms threat to Chicago successfully intercepted and destroyed these operators linked up to satellites in space and radar on the ground can respond within seconds. I don't think anyone has crystal ball clarity of where the threat is and.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Where it'll come from, but know that our crews are trained, ready and prepared.

[Oliver Berkman]

I mean most of what I've covered is military elements of the Arctic. I have been close to the border between Norway and I went on a border patrol with the Norwegians actually on their small border with Russia at the top near Kirkennes. A very odd experience because they patrol the border. Sometimes they do actually pass Russian patrols, but they're not allowed to interact with them. But yes, I mean it is a much More sort of potentially dangerous area. Now, given that the tensions that have been between. Well, not tensions, the war that exists between Russia and Ukraine. Uncle. Clearly, Russia worried about what, what NATO's doing.

[Valerie Sanderson]

And let's have a look, Jonathan, at why we're talking about the Arctic right now geostrategically, what's so important, because you might be forgiven for thinking, well, I mean, there's not much there, vast expanse of ice that we've been describing, sadly, bits of it melting. But why is it interesting for countries to compete to have control over the Arctic?

[Oliver Berkman]

Yeah, I think the simple answer is oil and gas. That is, there are large reserves in the Arctic region, and that is why a lot of countries are interested. I mean, there are more basic economic reasons. Russia, I think, gets about a third of its, its fish from the Arctic region. And then there's the melting ice. So the disappearance of the ice in the Northern Sea Passage, and that is opening up a potential trade route from Asia to Europe, which could be exploited better in some years than other years. But for example, in theory, if you were going from Asia via the Suez Canal to Europe, it would take you around 37 days. If you were able to navigate through the Northern Sea Passage, that would take you 23 days. So that's one of the reasons possibly that countries are getting more interested is because they realize that that is a sea route. And as Tim mentioned, Russia swallows up more than half the territory of that sea route and therefore would like to control that sea route. And we've seen what's happened in the Pacific with China and the seas around it trying to control the freedom of navigation, which has worried particularly the US the same worry could happen in the Arctic.

[Valerie Sanderson]

And it isn't just sea passage trade, Tim, is it? I mean, Jonathan mentioned oil and gas, but there are other minerals on there, zinc, nickel, iron. And there's a worldwide race for those these days, too.

[Jonathan Beale]

Yes, because some of that stuff is the stuff you need for renewable energy, and that's part of the sort of the new gold rush. There's definitely gold itself up there. There's zinc and there's nickel. The natural resources, I mean, these figures are so vast, we don't, I personally don't understand them, but it's. It's more than a thousand trillion cubic feet of natural gas proven to be there. 44 billion barrels of natural gas liquids, 90 billion barrels of oil. And again, we come back, as I think we will continually, to global warming and climate change. It's hard to get that stuff out in that harsh environment. But the warmer it gets, the easier it is to get to that and to the gold and to the zinc and to the nickel. So you know, for all those reasons, and also I do think increasingly what Jonathan referred to the Northern Sea route, if that's, and it's taking more than a week off your passage time, then it becomes a much more important trade route. Now the problem with that is the trade route along the Northern Sea route hogs the Russian coastline. I'll try not to go into too much detail, but you have 200 miles of your EEZ, your exclusive economic zone from your coastline. Some of the routes through the narrow straits near the Russian coastline are well within that. And the Russians are beginning to tell everybody that's our seas, our areas, you need to ask us and the Americans and others are saying international waters, international trade routes, we don't need to ask you. So if and when Russia decides to make a thing about that, they will fall back on those grounds. So you know, you put the whole thing together, the trade, the minerals, the oil, the geo strategic advantages and it's.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Warming up, it's warming up in as you're implying there from your tone, Tim, of course in more than one way and another way is what Russia is doing in its part of the Arctic, which has led to the Western military alliance, NATO to say there's a real security threat building in the Arctic.

[Oliver Berkman]

Last month Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov vowed that Moscow would defend its interest in the Arctic both in diplomatic and military terms. As one can expect from a defensive.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Alliance, NATO will also defend its interest.

[Oliver Berkman]

In this region and the high north.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Is important for the whole alliance.

[Oliver Berkman]

We have a responsibility to protect all our allies, including the seven here in the Arctic. And we want to uphold the international rules based order which includes freedom of navigation.

[Valerie Sanderson]

So Jonathan, what signs have there been in recent years that Russia has been trying to expand its dominance?

[Oliver Berkman]

Well, I think you have to in military terms you have to realize how strategically important the Arctic region is to Russia. And that's mainly because their strategic nuclear bomber fleet, their submarine fleet, their ballistic missile submarine fleet is based in the Kola Peninsula right there at the top of the Barents Sea. That is the submarine base they will use for patrols into the Buick Gap. That's a gap between Greenland, Iceland and the uk. Very important to go into the Atlantic there for the Russians. And obviously tensions have increased there. So for example, a couple of years ago we had the chief of the defence staff here in the UK saying that Russian submarine activity a few years ago had increased tenfold. So it's an important part of the world for Russia, not just for its strategic fleet, but also for its weapons testing. It's tested its hypersonic missiles up in the Arctic. It's got a number of nuclear facilities up there, and it has expanded its military presence. Now, clearly that expansion was happening at a greater pace before Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine after 2014, but before the full scale invasion, and they have, for example, at least three major bases, 13 airfields, radar stations, border outposts right across that coast. And, you know, the plan was to increase that military presence. Now, given what's happened recently with the fact that NATO has been expanded with Finland and Sweden joining, and that's one of the reasons why Putin, not the only reason, but one of the reasons why Putin went to war because he didn't want Ukraine to be a member of NATO. When he sees expansion of the NATO alliance up into the north, you've got to ask the question, you know, the likelihood that he'll be just as concerned. And that's, I think, the reason why people are worried. And that is why you've seen both increased Russian military presence and also increased activity by NATO countries, too.

[Jonathan Beale]

When you mentioned about Sweden and Finland coming in, when you look at the map, there's Norway right to their left. And because those two have joined, Norway is now building supply lines out of Norway, across Sweden into Finland and what's next, Murmansk in Russia, the Kola Peninsula, where the key, key defense, including their nuclear defenses. And so not justifying anything. But I just really want to back up what Jonathan says. You have to understand why they suddenly feel very nervous about this.

[Valerie Sanderson]

I found it very interesting traveling to Arctic countries, Finland, Sweden and Norway as well, the changing of attitudes and the idea, particularly with, you know, Russia's neighbors, Finland and Norway, was manage the relationship with Russia, don't antagonize Russia. However, the full scale invasion of Ukraine really has changed these relationships, you know, in the Arctic and sort of in the west and in general, isn't it, it's not a small thing for Finland and Sweden to join NATO. It's massive for those countries.

[Oliver Berkman]

It is. You're absolutely right. And you know that before, before Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine, I would go on exercises, military exercises, up to the Arctic region. The British go there, the American Marines go there. They regularly hold what they call cold response, a NATO exercise. And you would not be able to get anybody to say the word Russia. They would all talk about, you know, if there is a threat to this region, we will be ready to respond. And then you'd ask, well, who's that threat? And they would not. They'd always try avoid mentioning Russia. You go now, you go after the full scale invasion. It is Russia that's the threat there. That is why they're there and that's why they're on exercise.

[Valerie Sanderson]

There is this question, isn't there, about it's chicken and egg. Is it NATO's expansion that makes Russ feel defensive? Is it Russia's expanding of its military, recommissioning old Cold War bases, for example, that's making the west feel that it needs to up its game? And we heard Canada's Defence Minister Bill Blair speaking to the BBC's Hard Talk program in May.

[Jonathan Beale]

We understand that in order to actually.

[Oliver Berkman]

Keep the peace in the Arctic, we.

[Jonathan Beale]

Have to be strong in the Arctic. It's one of the reasons I've turned.

[Oliver Berkman]

Our national defense policy strongly towards that responsibility.

[Jonathan Beale]

And we're going to work very closely in collaboration, obviously, for the continental defence with the United States, but for the Arctic defense with all of our NATO allies, I think it's a shared responsibility. And when we are collaborative and we work together, I think we can be strong and we can deter that ever.

[Oliver Berkman]

Becoming a theater of conflict.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Jonathan, how much of a change is that? Because, you know, on top of that, Russia will be watching Finland and Sweden, which as we've said, has joined NATO merging their air forces with Norway as well. I mean, it's a real regional bristling.

[Oliver Berkman]

Yeah. And I've spoken to some of the pilots, the Norwegian pilots who fly up towards the Barents Sea and you know, they regularly come into interactions with the Russians. It hasn't escalated thankfully. But, you know, that is how tensions can get out of control if somebody takes action, if military action, in other words, does something that they shouldn't do. And then you've got to look at the rhetoric from the Russians as well. And you know, Russian rhetoric is not generally as conciliatory as Western rhetoric that you've just mentioned there. For example, Lavrov, the foreign minister, has said it's absolutely clear to everyone that this is our territory when he's talking about the Northern sea route. Heard from former Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, who said given NATO's desire to build up military potential near the Russian borders, retaliatory measures are required to create an appropriate grouping of troops in northwest Russia. So, you know, the rhetoric is heating up. I would caveat everything that even though, yes, there are tensions there and those tensions in the future could cause something that neither side wanted. And I don't think either side want to see conflict in that area at the moment. But Russia's military focus has been on Ukraine and that, you know, some of its plans to expand its military presence in the north has had to be constrained because of what's going on in Ukraine. So I don't sense any immediate threat. When you go up there, you know, NATO exercising, they're clearly worried, but you do not sense an immediate threat and that this is going to break out into some kind of conflict. But that is of course, the fear in the longer term.

[Valerie Sanderson]

So we've looked at what's at stake in the Arctic and rising tensions between Russia and the rest. Next, non regional power, China. What's it up to in the Arctic?

[Oliver Berkman]

Discover how to lead a better life in our age of confusion.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Enjoy this BBC audiobook collection written and.

[Oliver Berkman]

Presented by best selling author Oliver Berkman.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Containing four useful guides to tackling some.

[Oliver Berkman]

Central ills of busyness, anger, the insistence on positivity and the decline of nuance. Our lives today can feel like miniature versions of this relentless churn of activity.

[Valerie Sanderson]

We find we're rushing around more crazily than ever. Somewhere when we weren't looking, it's like busyness became a way of life.

[Oliver Berkman]

Start listening to Oliver Epidemics of Modern Life Available to purchase wherever you get your audiobooks.

[Valerie Sanderson]

This is the global story. We bring you one big international story in detail five days a week. Follow or subscribe wherever you listen. With me is Jonathan Beale and Tim Marshall. Could we now have a look at another country that might make Russia feel less alone in the Arctic, but that's making the West a bit more nervous, Tim, China has become increasingly interested in the Arctic, even though of course it's not an Arctic country itself.

[Jonathan Beale]

Yeah, China obviously is not in the Arctic, but China obviously is interested in the Arctic because it's seen this northern sea route, it's seen that its temporary friend, a marriage of convenience with Russia, gives it opportunities. And Russia might need some assistance. And so low it has observer status at the Arctic Council, but also is up there on an island called Svalbard. Now Svalbard is a Norwegian island high up in the Arctic Ocean above Norway. But it's very complicated. But there's a treaty in the 1920s in which Russia got mineral rights there as well. And so Russia has mines there. And China decided it'd be really interesting if they had a scientific base there, which they do. And tourists with very long telephoto Lenses who appear to be interested in all sorts of things that are going on up there. And you can see what I'm alluded to here. Every great power does this. There is espionage going on up there. Are they about to build a massive port and see the Chinese fleet there? No. Are they taking a keen interest in leveraging their interests with Russia? Yes.

[Valerie Sanderson]

And, Jonathan, joint military operations. We've spoken about Western joint military operations in the Arctic. Russian and Chinese bombers flew together for the first time as well. The US military intercepted Russian and Chinese bombers in international airspace off of the coast of Alaska yesterday. Officials say two Russian and two Chinese fighter jets were detected, tracked and intercepted. The US official says that this is the first time Russian and Chinese aircraft have jointly entered the area. However, NORAD notes that the activity is not seen as a threat.

[Oliver Berkman]

Yeah. And they've been doing naval exercises, too. In that region or close to that region. I think there is a difference in that. China's interest is more mercenary, it's economic, whereas for Russia, it is both economic but also strategic. In other words, you know, what is worrying the west at the moment, a growing relationship between China and Russia does not inevitably mean that they are in total agreement. And Russia will be concerned in some ways, as it is about NATO expansion, about Chinese expansion, but at the moment needs it. And I think there's also one other thing that is in common interest between Russia and China, and that is breaking up what are the UN laws of the Sea unclos, which essentially is about free passage. And that's exactly what China's trying to do in the Indo Pacific region. And I think the concern will be that from the Western countries is that will be what Russia and China try to do in the Arctic.

[Valerie Sanderson]

So I think we've established that neither Russia nor the Western countries in the Arctic Circle are looking for conflict in the Arctic, even though there's suspicion and competition. But what about unintended consequences? We often hear warnings about that in the Middle east, also in the South China Sea. What about the Arctic?

[Oliver Berkman]

I think there's always the danger that even if you haven't got direct conflict between Russia and, let's be honest, it is now NATO countries up there, that there will be what we're seeing as a result of the Ukraine war, there is sabotage. That's certainly what the west is accusing, and there is evidence of it by Russia in Western countries, whether it be at arms factories targeting individuals in the past. And I think one of the concerns, for example, that we have seen in the Arctic region is some fiber Optic cables being cut. And that certainly happened in Svalbard a few years ago. And questions as to how. Well, was this just natural or was this a deliberate operation by Russia? We know that Russia, for example, has underwater craft that essentially got a big pair of scissors on them and can cut cables. And the Russians have been hovering over cables. So I think it's always the concern is that there may be some sort of hybrid, what they call hybrid, in other words, not full scale combat, but activities, military activities that could target individual countries and, and disrupt western communications. And I think the other thing we haven't mentioned is, is, you know, Russia has, we talked a bit about climate change earlier. Russia's got lots of nuclear, not just weapons, but also nuclear power stations, but also nuclear systems that are basically being buried underground there. And there has been increase in radioactivity across the border and a worry too. So I think there's. That there's plenty to worry about, not just full scale blown war, which I think is highly unlikely, but I think there's plenty of to worry about below the threshold of war.

[Jonathan Beale]

Yeah, it's the interrelated things. So often there are what sometimes seem like minor incidents, but they're not minor incidents. In the bigger picture of things. If you look at, at the South China Sea, what looks sometimes like minor incidents regarding Taiwan are not minor incidents. Because if one side or the other does not stand on that, what looks like a minor point, the bigger point then arises. So you know, if the Americans don't stand by Taiwan, what is the point of being an ally of the United States in that part of the world? There isn't any. And so when we come to the Arctic, what, what we will see over the next few years sometimes when they people do bump up against each other is what looks like a minor incident is about something much big. And I think the best example is probably what Jonathan talked about earlier. Freedom of Navigation operations fonops where if you are sailing through a strait through the, the Northern passage now that goes along the top of Russia in order to get you through the Arctic Circle and down towards Europe. If the Russians say one day, well actually no, you need our permission to do it. And if the Americans or somebody else says actually no we don't, then you getting these rows. And then it. Because. And it's not just about that one ship going through that one passage. It's about a bigger picture. So I return to what I said earlier. We need the forums and we need to keep the lines of communication open in order to navigate both that strait and the future.

[Valerie Sanderson]

And Tim, we've spoken a lot about security concerns in the Arctic and we've only touched on climate and climate security. We need to emphasize that a bit more, don't we? The breakdown in trust and cooperation there, do you see that changing in the near future? If, when the conflict in Ukraine ends, could that be sort of a trust building exercise that's more neutral than many other things where the west and Russia could cooperate again, it's certainly one where they need to.

[Jonathan Beale]

But I just think that the relationship between Russia and many countries in the world, mostly to their west, is broken, possibly for a generation now, in the event that Mr. Putin falls under a bus. You know, it's not exactly that liberal democracy will break out across Russia's 11 time zones. So, you know, you're not going to see an immediate rapprochement. But if there is a more pragmatic person, that eventually emerges, one, as Mrs. Thatcher famously said about Mr. Gorbachev, someone we can do business with, well, yes, you can then begin to build those bridges, which is why I hope the Arctic Council does continue, because it is a very useful forum that once we enter the next phase of the relationship, which looks to me years away, but when you do, you need those structures in place, allowing you to reach across the divide, at which point, yes, you can start cooperating on, cooperating on climate change. You know, we do need the scientists in the various parts of the Arctic. We do need exchanges of information, including satellite information about what is, what is going on on the climate issue. There are already villages being impacted along the, the Bering Sea coast. Other areas they're having to relocate because coastlines are eroded because of warming. We're seeing animals moving, polar bears are having to move further north. And the last thing I'd say is that what happens in the Arctic is actually a global concern because if the waters rise in the Arctic, they don't just stay there. It will contribute to rising waters in places such as Bangladesh. So the Arctic is a global issue.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Tim and Jonathan, thank you so much.

[Jonathan Beale]

Thank you very much.

[Oliver Berkman]

Thank you. If you enjoyed listening to the Global Story and would like to hear more, there's a new episode every weekday. Just search for the Global Story wherever you get your BBC podcasts and be sure to click, subscribe or follow. We'll have another edition of the Global News Podcast later. Until then, bye bye.

[Valerie Sanderson]

Yoga is more than just exercise. It's the spiritual practice that millions swear by. And in 2017, Miranda, a univer University tutor from London, joins a yoga school that promises profound transformation. It felt a really safe and welcoming space. After yoga classes, I felt amazing. But soon that calm, welcoming atmosphere leads to something far darker. A journey that leads to allegations of grooming, trafficking and exploitation across international borders. I don't have my passport. I don't have my phone. I don't have my bank cards. I have nothing. The passport being taken, being in a house and not feeling like they can leave. World of Secrets is where untold stories are unveiled and hidden realities are exposed. In this new series, we're confronting the dark side of the wellness industry with a hope of a spiritual breakthrough. Gives way to disturbing accusations.

[Jonathan Beale]

You just get sucked in so gradually and it's done so skillfully that you don't realize.

[Oliver Berkman]

And it's like this.

[Valerie Sanderson]

The secret that's there. I wanted to believe that, you know, that whatever they were doing, even if it seemed gross to me, was for some spiritual reason that I couldn't yet understand. Revealing the hidden secrets of a global yoga network. I feel that I have no other choice. The only thing I can do is to speak about this and to put my reputation and everything else on the line. I want truth and justice and for other people to not be hurt, for things to be different in the future.

[Oliver Berkman]

To bring it into the light and almost alchemize some of that evil stuff that went on and take back the power.

[Valerie Sanderson]

World of secrets. Season 6 the Bad Guru Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.