The Global Story; The hostage negotiator’s guide to making deals with Putin’s Russia

Summary

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The Global Story: The Hostage Negotiator’s Guide to Making Deals with Putin’s Russia

BBC World Service – Global News Podcast
Host: Asma Khalid
Guest: Roger Karstens, Former Special Presidential Envoy for Hostage Affairs
Date: November 16, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the world of high-stakes hostage negotiations between the United States and some of its most formidable adversaries, with a particular focus on Russia under Vladimir Putin. Former US Special Presidential Envoy for Hostage Affairs, Roger Karstens, shares his front-line experience negotiating with regimes and groups like Russia, the Taliban, and Iran. Using real-life examples—including the cases of Paul Whelan, Brittney Griner, Trevor Reed, and others—Karstens discusses the principles, ethical dilemmas, logistical realities, and diplomatic complexities of bringing Americans home from wrongful detention. The conversation is highly relevant given shifting global alliances and US efforts to end the war in Ukraine.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Approach to Hostage Negotiations (03:12–04:45)

• Human Connection is Critical:
  Karstens emphasizes that successful negotiations—even with adversaries—require authenticity, humility, and above all, listening.
  • Quote (03:44):
    “You have to bring your intuition, you have to bring your humility. You have to come in and be ready to listen. Because at the end of the day, everyone wants to be heard—even a dictator who may be holding a US citizen arbitrarily.” (Roger Karstens)
• Tactics:
  • Go beyond rigid bargaining; foster trust even with adversaries.
  • Build personal relationships, as these can open channels that purely transactional dealings cannot.

2. Evolution of US Hostage Negotiation Policy (04:45–07:30)

• Pre-2015 Policy Failures:
  US had a strict non-negotiation policy with terrorist groups (e.g., ISIS), resulting in tragic losses for American hostages in Syria.
• Creation of the SPIHA Role:
  Following policy review under Obama, the Special Presidential Envoy for Hostage Affairs (SPIHA) was established for empowered, centralized negotiations and better family communication.

3. Special Forces Background and Negotiation Style (07:54–09:27)

• Special Forces experience trains operatives to handle ambiguity, adapt, and build rapport with a wide range of personalities—skills Karstens considers vital for complex negotiations.
  • Quote (08:46):
    “You want a personal relationship with that person if you can get it. I want them to trust me, and they really have to trust me. That means I have to be honest with my enemy, my opponents.” (Roger Karstens)

4. Case Studies: Americans Held in Russia

• Paul Whelan (09:49–10:57):
  Former Marine, wrongly accused of espionage in Russia. Russian negotiators hinted at wanting a swap involving high-profile prisoners.
• Trevor Reed (10:57–13:50):
  Arrested after a barroom incident. The US confirmed his wrongful detention after evidence review.
• Negotiation Tactics (12:06–12:36):
  Identifying who controls the “jail keys” (FSB vs. other agencies) determines strategy and interlocutors.
• The Reed–Yarishenko Swap (13:10–15:24):
  Karstens describes step-by-step logistics of the exchange in Istanbul, drawing parallels to the “Bridge of Spies” Cold War exchanges.
  • Quote (14:32):
    “I jump on a plane and put my hand out and say, ‘Hey Trevor Reed, I’m Ambassador Roger Karstens … I’m here to take you home. Here’s what’s going to take place in the next 10 minutes.’” (Roger Karstens)

5. High Profile: Brittney Griner & the ‘Merchant of Death’ Swap (19:32–22:53)

• Griner’s Case:
  Detained on drug charges, her release became intertwined with that of Paul Whelan and Russia’s desire to repatriate arms dealer Viktor Bout.
  • Negotiation Hurdles:
    Russia leveraged Griner for maximalist demands; the US had only one high-value Russian (Bout) to exchange.
• Ethical Dilemmas (21:09–22:53):
  • Emotional high of rescuing an innocent American contrasted with the “moral hazard” of releasing a potentially dangerous individual.
  • Quote (21:09):
    “It’s like a 30-second high ... But by that night, when you look in the mirror after that swap, you never really feel great because you have to do something tough to get your Americans back ... The moral imperative, meaning getting your innocent American out, outweighs the moral hazard.” (Roger Karstens)
• Impact of the Swap:
  Karstens argues Viktor Bout’s criminal influence had faded since his 2007 capture, suggesting the risk of his return to arms dealing was diminished.

6. Sweeping Multi-National Swaps (23:07–25:14)

• The Evan Gershkovich Case:
  Wall Street Journal reporter released as part of a broad, complex multiplayer swap involving 24 prisoners and at least six countries.
• Strategic Broadening (24:17–25:05):
  • When bilateral talks with Russia failed, the US orchestrated a broader international deal, echoing Eisenhower:
    • Quote (24:44–25:05):
      “If you can’t solve a small problem, then enlarge it … by making the problem bigger, we came up with a solution.” (Roger Karstens)
• Navalny Discussion:
  US considered including opposition leader Alexei Navalny in swaps but Putin’s opposition made it unfeasible; his eventual death precluded any such negotiations.

7. Do Swaps Encourage More Hostage-Taking? (26:04–27:05)

• Karstens acknowledges the “moral imperative” to bring citizens home but says data shows most countries do not increase detentions after a swap—Russia and Venezuela are exceptions.
• Emphasizes need for long-term deterrence, but warns the process is slow and must be pursued alongside diplomatic engagement.

8. Negotiating with Putin’s Russia & Implications for Ending the Ukraine War (27:05–29:39)

• Personal Relations Matter (27:35–27:56):
  Karstens considers direct leader-to-leader rapport (e.g., Trump and Putin) advantageous, but not sufficient—shared interests and tough bargaining are also necessary.
  • Quote (27:35):
    “I think personal relationships matter. So the fact that President Putin and President Trump have some sort of relationship? I see that as very positive.” (Roger Karstens)
• Warns that settlements over Ukraine will be far more complex, potentially requiring deals at the very top level and buy-in from Ukraine and other stakeholders.

9. Lessons, Regrets, and the Human Cost (29:39–31:35)

• Karstens reflects on the emotional toll, admitting deep regret over the rare instance where he gave a hostage’s family false hope due to a last-minute deal collapse.
  • Quote (30:01):
    “That right there solidified my understanding that in this business, you can never promise the result. All you can do is say, you have 100% of me.” (Roger Karstens)
• The job demands near-total personal commitment, but no guarantees; families must brace for a long, difficult process.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

| Speaker | Quote | Timestamp | |------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-------------------| | Roger Karstens | “You have to bring your intuition, you have to bring your humility. You have to come in and be ready to listen...” | 03:44 | | Roger Karstens | “You want a personal relationship with that person if you can get it ... That means I have to be honest with my enemy...” | 08:46 | | Roger Karstens | “I jump on a plane and put my hand out and say, ‘Hey Trevor Reed, I’m Ambassador Roger Karstens … I’m here to take you home.’” | 14:32 | | Roger Karstens | “It’s like a 30-second high ... But by that night, when you look in the mirror after that swap, you never really feel great...” | 21:09 | | Roger Karstens | “If you can’t solve a small problem, then enlarge it … by making the problem bigger, we came up with a solution.” | 24:44-25:05 | | Roger Karstens | “I think personal relationships matter ... I see that as very positive.” | 27:35 | | Roger Karstens | “That right there solidified my understanding that in this business, you can never promise the result. All you can do is say, you have 100% of me.” | 30:01 |

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Summary Takeaways

• Negotiating with adversaries like Russia is as much about psychology and relationship-building as it is about leverage.
• Organizational changes after past failures—such as the birth of the SPIHA role—reflect growing US commitment to bringing Americans home.
• Hostage swaps involve agonizing ethical dilemmas, persistent uncertainty, and immense emotional stakes for both negotiators and families.
• Direct personal diplomacy (leader-to-leader) plays a vital role, especially with autocratic regimes like Putin’s Russia.
• Multi-nation deals offer a template for creative diplomacy when bilateral efforts stall.
• Despite the perceived risk, data suggest swaps do not typically embolden most countries to further detain Americans, though exceptions exist.
• Negotiators carry lasting emotional burdens—from families’ dashed hopes to the moral ambiguity of the deals themselves.

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For more in-depth global analysis, search for “The Global Story” wherever you get your podcasts.

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Transcript

[Roger Karstens]

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[Asma Khalid]

Hey there, I'm Asma Khalid. And I'm Tristan Redman, and we're here.

[Roger Karstens]

With a bonus episode for you from the Global Story podcast.

[Asma Khalid]

The world order is shifting. Old alliances are fraying and new ones are emerging. Some of this turbulence can be traced to decisions made in the United States. But the US Isn't just a cause of the upheaval. Its politics are also a symptom of it.

[Roger Karstens]

Every day we focus on one story looking at how America and the world shape each other.

[Asma Khalid]

So we hope you enjoy this episode. And to find more of our show, just search for the Global Story wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Donald Trump has prized himself on being the president who ends wars. But there is one conflict he has failed to make much progress on so far. That's Russia's war with Ukraine. The Russian leader, Vladimir Putin, keeps stonewalling American efforts. One man who has experience successfully negotiating with Russia and many other US Adversaries is Roger Karstens. He was, until earlier this year, the special presidential envoy for hostage affairs. In plain speak, that means he was the guy in charge of bringing home Americans wrongfully detained around the world. He was first appointed to the job by President Trump in 2020. He spent five years working to free dozens of Americans in often complex deals that took years to negotiate. From the BBC, I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. and today on the Global Story, we speak to Roger Karstens on what it takes to successfully make deals with Russia. Roger Carstens, it's such a pleasure to have you with us in the studio. Thank you so much for stopping by.

[Roger Karstens]

My pleasure. Thank you. Glad to be with you.

[Asma Khalid]

You have sat down with some of the United States greatest adversaries, Putin's Russia, the Iranian regime, the Taliban. And you've done all this in an effort to ensure that Americans who were taken hostage or wrongfully detained could come back to the United States. I want to know what's your approach when you're in the room and do any of these negotiations, meetings in the rooms with any of these folks have anything in common?

[Roger Karstens]

Yeah, I think they think they have a lot, lot in common. I think when you sit down with someone who might be an opponent of the United States, it's important to bring your full self. You know, you can't just go in with a mathematical diagram in your head of what you're going to try to offer and what you think they may offer and where you might go instead. You also have to bring your intuition, you have to bring your humility. You have to come in and be ready to listen. Because at the end of the day, everyone wants to be heard to include a dictator who may be holding a US Citizen arbitrarily. They still have a story to tell. And if they don't tell that story and they don't feel like they're being heard or listened to, then the negotiation doesn't go that well. It's something that they taught me in Special Forces training. It's got to be about listening, engaging, establishing a relationship in a way. It doesn't matter who's on the other side of that conversation, whether they're a partner, an ally, a friend, an enemy, an opponent. Your goal is to make a very human connection.

[Asma Khalid]

So you're talking about being in the room and negotiating, as we say, with sometimes some rather unsavory characters. I remember this phrase that America does not negotiate with terrorists. But isn't that what you ended up doing in this role? Can you walk me through how the United States approach to hostage negotiation changed?

[Roger Karstens]

So I think the, maybe the tagline that we had in my office was essentially that like, you know, the United States doesn't talk to terrorists, but we do. Oh, and there's a difference between terrorists and that would be a non state armed group that like, you know, Jnim, Al Qaeda, isis, and a nation state that's holding your citizens like Russia, Iran, Venezuela, and with nation States, we're always much more willing to talk to them. But I think in terms of talking to the terrorist groups, my position was built. I should say my former position, the Special Presidential Envoy for Hostage affairs, or as we call it, spiha. It was built so that because everything.

[Asma Khalid]

In this town has a great acronym.

[Roger Karstens]

You have to give it an accurate. But it's such a long. You choke on saying the title, so you have to truncate it. But, yeah, SPIHA was gonna go when.

[Asma Khalid]

The position was built.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

When.

[Roger Karstens]

2015. Yeah.

[Asma Khalid]

You spent some time on this with us as to what the situation was prior to 2015 and what changed or.

[Roger Karstens]

Why it changed in 2012-2014. The United States absolutely failed in getting some American citizens out of Syria. They were taken by isis. Okay. And we refused to negotiate with isis. We refused to really talk to the families as to what we knew about their loved ones and what we were doing to try to get them back. And by the way, what we were doing was about nothing. We begin with some grim news from Syria. Intelligence officials are investigating a video that was posted online, purportedly by isis, that claims to show that captured US Aid worker Peter Kasich has been killed. ISIS released a video. It hasn't yet been verified by US Intelligence, but it does appear to show the execution of journalist Stephen Sotloff. The ISIS video is simply too horrific to show. The man being executed by beheading is.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

James Foley, a freelance journalist kidnapped in Northwest Syria on November 22, 2012.

[Asma Khalid]

Thanksgiving Day.

[Roger Karstens]

By about 2014, all these Americans had been murdered by ISIS. So President Obama initiated a hostage policy review, and we came up with the idea that, look, we need a single focal point. That person must be empowered to talk to all the bad guys or the opponents, the adversaries, even terrorist organizations.

[Asma Khalid]

On the Islamic State, 100%.

[Roger Karstens]

And the mandate was that we kept families fully informed to the extent that we could. And so with that, my office was born. This hostage recovery enterprise, which is what we named it.

[Asma Khalid]

I want to get into your personal story. You mentioned the Special Forces a moment ago. I just want to understand how that experience may have translated to what you then ended up doing.

[Roger Karstens]

Yeah, so in Special Forces, you know, they're looking for someone who, of course, is, as you might imagine, is comfortable in a chaotic and ambiguous environment. And so there's a selection process that you go through. And selection's not just this three or four week long period where, in my mind, you think you're being evaluated on being an Olympic athlete. Instead, they're really trying to get into your personality. You might test someone and take them through all these physical efforts, but what you're really trying to do is take a look at a person to see how they interact with other people, how they make decisions, what their mindset is when things are going wrong. And at the end of the day, if you can get someone who's not rigid and linear, who's ethical even when things are challenging and they have opportunities to not be ethical, someone who can make friends with anyone, but also someone who can flip a switch and try to be a world class soldier in that split second moment, then you're looking in a way, a jack of all trades. And so I think the training and then the execution of any special forces missions I had, I think in a way kind of strangely well suited me for Spiha in that whether you're talking to the Taliban or you're talking to the Venezuelans or the Russians or the Iranians, when I'm trying to get an American citizen out of one of their jails, I want a personal relationship with that person if I can get it. I want them to trust me, and they really have to trust me. That means I have to be honest with my, my enemy, my opponents. And if we can get there, then we have a fighting chance to come up with an agreement that will eventually result in bringing someone home.

[Asma Khalid]

Roger, we want to focus a bulk of our conversation here on the United States relationship with Russia and what your experience as the hostage envoy can tell us about the US Russia relationship. I know when you stepped into that job in 2020, there were a couple of Americans who were still being held hostage in Russia.

[Roger Karstens]

We're going to focus that time on Paul Whelan.

[Asma Khalid]

Paul Whelan.

[Roger Karstens]

And Paul Whelan wasn't yet designated as a wrongful detainee when I took the job. He was a former U.S. marine, became a business executive, and he would travel to Russia as part of his business duties and went back to Russia to attend the wedding of a colleague that he'd met over there. And during that period, the Russians arrested him and accused him of being a spy. He was the first one while he was in the job that was actually officially declared wrongfully detained by the Secretary of State.

[Asma Khalid]

Okay.

[Roger Karstens]

So early on the Russians had indicated that they would be willing to trade. Victor Bout, who is a very notable arms dealer, arrested in Thailand and sentenced to U.S. jail. Konstantin Yurushchenko, convicted and sentenced for narcotics trafficking. And at a certain point, Maria Butina, detained on espionage like activities and the Russians wanted them back. And I think early on when I took the job, I could see some paperwork like in our files, indicating that the Russians were hinting about a swap between all three. Two or one for Paul Whelan.

[Asma Khalid]

And shortly afterwards, shortly after Trevor Reid.

[Roger Karstens]

Was taken, Trevor was arrested in what might be seen as a barroom brawl that took place in Moscow. And the Russians charged that he also became violent with the police officers while en route to the police station.

[Asma Khalid]

And who is Trevor Reid?

[Roger Karstens]

Former U.S. marine. Was visiting his girlfriend on just a personal trip. And I think when something like that happens, you don't just take the case immediately because you actually want to try to figure out the facts. You don't want to take a case and find out later that that person was guilty of what they're being charged with.

[Asma Khalid]

I see.

[Roger Karstens]

But at a certain point, we were able to piece together enough information to come to the conclusion that he was wrongfully detained.

[Asma Khalid]

Now, how'd you determine he was wrongfully detained?

[Roger Karstens]

Just all the facts of the case. His girlfriend was able to get a video film of the police car. And in taking a look at it, you can see that there was never a moment where the car looked like there was a brawl taking place in the car. Witness statements, eventually you can paint a picture as to what happened. And then also you might get a sense of what that the Russians are going to use them for political leverage.

[Asma Khalid]

How does the manner in which they were taken tell you what the Russians may have wanted and who you might negotiate with?

[Roger Karstens]

It's important to figure out who actually has the key to the jail cell, because the conversation is going to be different if someone's taken in Russia, are you going to be dealing with their Ministry of Foreign affairs, with their Department of Justice, with the intelligence services? If the intelligence services, are you going to be dealing with the fsb, the gru, or the svr? I think we determined early on in my office that it was going to be the fsb, the intelligence channels.

[Asma Khalid]

Okay.

[Roger Karstens]

And so we started to reach out to the Russians on the other side to get a sense of, you know, what it is they want. Now, the other side, a lot, a lot of times, doesn't tell you what they want. They want to just see what you offer and then they respond.

[Asma Khalid]

So if you fast forward, Trevor Reid does eventually get released. He is swapped for a drug dealer. And I recall it took place, that swap in istanbul, Turkey, in 2022. What were the logistics of that swap? I want to understand what it's like to be on the plane on the tarmac, as this all transpires, on the.

[Roger Karstens]

Plane flight out, there were people from, of course, my office. There were people from the law enforcement side of the house. Konstantin Yurushchenko was there, of course.

[Asma Khalid]

And that's the drug dealer who is being exchanged, correct?

[Roger Karstens]

You know, Mr. Yurchenko, how's your English? You know, speaks perfect English. And I said, hey, do you have an idea what's going on? I think so, but please tell me you're being swapped for this person. We're going to this country. We're going to land in the city. When we land, it's probably going to happen like this. You'll stay here until you're told this. At a certain point, you'll be handed a piece of paper, and you'll be escorted to the other side of the tarmac to link up with your side. So you kind of explain the ground scheme maneuver so that there's not a lot of confusion.

[Asma Khalid]

So the planes land. You get off the plane, and they're waiting for us. Okay, and what do you say to your Russian counterpart?

[Roger Karstens]

I just get off the plane and introduce yourself and say, look, here's what we're thinking about doing. What are your thoughts? You know, can we integrate what we're both thinking of and then make this happen in the next, like, 10 or 20 minutes? And that's the conversation we had. And then you see in that movie with Tom Hanks, the Bridge of Spies, where, you know, you settle everything, and then at a certain point, both sides start moving together at the same time to cross each other in the middle and then go off to their respective planes.

[Asma Khalid]

Did you see Trevor Reid first? Did you talk to him at all before I did?

[Roger Karstens]

I saw him first. He was on the Russian plane.

[Asma Khalid]

Can you share anything about that, or.

[Roger Karstens]

I think there's always a little shock. And you have to think that when you see Trevor Reid or you see Brittney Griner or whoever else, hours earlier, they were in a Russian prison with maybe some idea that something might be happening, but maybe not fully comprehending. And so I jump on a plane and put my hand out and say, hey, Trevor Reid, I'm Ambassador Roger Karstens. I'm coming from the U.S. department of State on behalf of President Joe Biden and Secretary of State Antony Blinken, I'm here to take you home. Here's what's going to take place in the next 10 minutes, and I can explain to him what's about to happen. And at that point, you know, you depart the plane and you know, go do a few other logistical maneuvers. And then shortly, Trevor gets off the plane and Konstantin Yuroshako gets off the plane and they cross in the center part.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

Breaking overnight, we can tell you now, former Marine Trevor Reed has been released after being imprisoned in Russia since 2019 in exchange for a Russian pilot convicted of drug trafficking.

[Asma Khalid]

As he crosses a tarmac to board a flight home to America, Reid walks right past Konstantin Yarishenko, who the US Agreed to return in exchange for. Reid. You mentioned on the tarmac there in Istanbul, you met your Russian counterpart. What was the Russian? Roger Karstens, if I may call him that. What was he like?

[Roger Karstens]

Very professional. I'd say he was, you know, not much different than me in its own way. I mean, we didn't show up with hardened faces and animus. We actually showed up as two people asked to do a job on behalf of their countries. And so, you know, with a handshake and a conversation, we got down to business.

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[Asma Khalid]

Roger, I want to ask you about a case in 2022, which is when the US basketball player Brittney Griner was arrested.

[Roger Karstens]

WNBA star Brittney Griner convicted today on drug charges in Russia. A judge sentencing her to nine years in a penal colony. Griner, detained in Russia for more than five months, found guilty of intentionally smuggling vape cartridges of hashish oil into the country.

[Asma Khalid]

She was eventually released in exchange for a notorious arms dealer whose nickname was the Merchant of Death. And I want to understand how that deal unfolded and I've got a lot of follow ups, but please.

[Roger Karstens]

Brittany was arrested right before Trevor Reid was released. And then we go ahead and conduct the Trevor swap. And now the math doesn't add up. We have Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan. And on their side, they only have Victor Boot, the merchant of death.

[Asma Khalid]

I see.

[Roger Karstens]

And so the negotiations at that point rightfully focused on could we somehow make a 2 for 1 swap happen. They were hinting very strongly that they were going to use Brittney Griner for leverage. And based on Victor Boot, they were very clear, not just during this small short period, but going back years, that they wanted to obtain Victor Bout's release.

[Asma Khalid]

So Brittany Griner does get released in a one to one prisoner swap for Victor Boot. And there was some criticism at the time that the US Government agreed to release this notorious arms dealer. And I wonder if you had any, any moral qualms about this swap.

[Roger Karstens]

I would say almost every swap we ever did at the very completion of it, at the end of the night, after I've seen someone who's innocent, wrongfully detained, getting off in US soil, collapsing into their arms, their loved ones reconnecting after years of poor treatment. It's such. It's like a 30 second high that you cannot really be replaced by anything else. But by that night, when you look in the mirror after that swap, you never really feel great because you have to do something tough to get your Americans back. It would be nice if the Russians took an American and to get that American back, they demanded that we changed a post office name in Minot, North Dakota, to the Vladimir Putin post office. We'd be like, well, that's an easy deal. We'll do that. Instead they have a maximalist demand to get someone like Victor Boot, the merchant of death. That's hard. And a friend of mine came up with a way of putting it together. He said, look, the moral imperative, meaning getting your innocent American out, outweighs the moral hazard. The moral hazard being taking a chance that the person that you're trading may go back to a life of crime.

[Asma Khalid]

Well, can I ask you about that? Because there has been reporting in the interim now that suggests Victor Boot has resumed arms dealing.

[Roger Karstens]

I don't think he's been very successful. I've read it all.

[Asma Khalid]

It's like the Wall Street Journal has been reported.

[Roger Karstens]

He's gone from being one of the most successful notorious arms dealers to being a very not good with Yemen. But what you're doing is you're taking someone who was captured in 2007 back when they had flip phones. By the time he gets out of prison, they've already carved up his network. Other people are doing it. Breaking back into the network is going to be ridiculously hard, if not impossible. But I think when making these cases again, the moral Imperative in the President's mind, certainly in mine, outweighed the moral hazard.

[Asma Khalid]

And I should note that Victor Boot reportedly told a Russian news agency that the claims made by the Wall Street Journal are unsubstantiated. Roger, I want to ask you about another very prominent case.

[Roger Karstens]

Russia's Security Agency says it has arrested.

[Asma Khalid]

A US Journalist working for the Wall Street Journal in Moscow on charges of espionage, Evan Gershkovich, who was arrested in March of 2023. He is eventually released.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

Good morning. We are coming on the air with breaking news. Four American citizens detained in Russia have just been released as part of a prisoner swap involving multiple nations. Among those now free, Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich and Marine veteran Paul Whelan. It's a sweeping deal involving 24 prisoners in at least six different countries.

[Roger Karstens]

And among the Russians freed from Western jails, Vadim Krasikov, an FSB hitman who brazenly gunned down an opponent of the Kremlin in broad daylight in Berlin. Deal that made this possible was a feat of diplomacy and friendship.

[Asma Khalid]

In total, 16 political prisoners, including Russian opposition figures, some human rights activists, were released as part of this prisoner swap. And I'm wondering if you can help us understand what was going on at this moment. Was this a situation where hostage release and American foreign policy merged?

[Roger Karstens]

That might be considered that. I know that we tried to work bilaterally, one on one with the Russians to come up with a solution for Evan Gershkovich and also Kurmasheva, Vladimir Karamarza, Paul Whelan. So we're four people that we were very interested in getting back, but we could find no way that the Russians were going to do that on a one to one basis. And that's when we started to look more broadly. Were there people that were our partners and allies who might be willing to take Russian spies that they'd caught and throw them on the negotiating table on our behalf to pull out a bigger deal. President Eisenhower famously said that if you can't solve a small problem, then enlarge it and then it might be more solvable. So by making the problem bigger, we were able to come up with a solution, whereas if we kept it smaller and bilateral between us and the Russians, it never would have worked.

[Asma Khalid]

Interesting.

[Roger Karstens]

And so that's when we had to start using, in a way, the foreign policy efforts of the United States government to talk to other countries in an effort to pull this all together.

[Asma Khalid]

Why were you so keen to get some of these Russians out? And I'm curious. I Mean, one leading Russian opposition figure who eventually died in prison, Alexei Navalny, was he on that list at all?

[Roger Karstens]

Yeah. So Navalny was someone that we thought about very early on, but were really unable to put him on the big list because of the belief that President Putin would never accept him as a part of a swap. There did come a time when we figured out that President Putin would consider him as a part of a swap, where he eventually jumped onto the list and sadly, he passed away before we could execute a swap of that nature. And so I'd say some of the political opponents that came out of Russia, in a way, were trying to counterbalance and account for the loss of Navalny in what could have been maybe a smaller swamp. But in a way, you have to be glad that so many people were freed on that one day.

[Asma Khalid]

So there are, as we speak here, still other Americans being detained by Russia. As you spend more effort, resources, in trying to get citizens back to the United States, there might be some who would say, well, doesn't that actually encourage countries to take them more, knowing that you're so committed to bringing them back?

[Roger Karstens]

So, three things. Number one, strangely, except for one or two countries, the logic doesn't fit. If you look at the mathematics, Venezuela, the math doesn't work because the Venezuelans have taken more Americans. The Russians have certainly have. But if you look at the other countries that you might say are the usual suspects once you've made a swap deal, for the most part, they're not rushing back to take more Americans. Number two, there is that moral, that moral imperative to get your citizens back. And number three, you still have to make these deals while coming up with a deterrence effort. And that may take 10 years, but in that 10 year period, you're going to still have to sit down with the other side and talk to them about how to solve it.

[Asma Khalid]

We're at this point now where President Trump is trying to broker a deal to end the war between Russia and Ukraine. He seems to put quite a lot of stock in his personal relationship with President Putin as a way of potentially breaking some sort of deadlock. Based off of your experience in dealing with the Russians, I want to know what you've learned about the way Russia operates and what you've come to understand about how best to get what you want out of the Russians.

[Roger Karstens]

I'd like to take a bite of humble pie here and say, I'm not sure that I figured it all out. I can tell you that I think personal relationships matter. So the fact that President Putin and President Trump have some sort of relationship? I see that as very positive.

[Asma Khalid]

You see that as positive because, notably, President Biden refused to meet with Putin over the last several years. He did not want to sit down.

[Roger Karstens]

Yeah, I think that the relationship that leaders have with each other, I'd say that's of great value. Having said that, I think you're at times still required to come up and find shared interests and identify what those interests are, and then start fighting your way to take both sides and keep pressing them together to the point that you can make an agreement. Now, the Ukraine war is going to be very hard because there are other people involved, of course, there's Ukraine, naturally, and there are other people with vested interests, whether it's Germany or. Pick your country. But at the end of the day, it's probably going to come down to President Trump and President Putin making a deal, one that I'm hopeful that President Zelensky's fully brought in on. But this is definitely not easy stuff, obviously.

[Asma Khalid]

So you left your post in January, and in February with the new administration. President Trump's special envoy, Steve Witkoff, went to Moscow and met with Putin personally in negotiations that end up securing the release of an American named Mark Fogel. Wykoff has also met on other occasions since then with Putin in Moscow to try to end the war in Ukraine. What do you make of that style of negotiating? Because you never met with Putin personally yourself, is that correct?

[Roger Karstens]

I've never met with Putin, but I think that's exactly the kind of relationship you want to have. So I fully salute how he did it. This style of negotiating is pretty much the same one that I used, and that is just show up and have the conversation, because I just don't think you really can progress if you're not talking to the other side.

[Asma Khalid]

I have one final question here. You did this job for several years, meeting and spending a huge amount of time with families and committing to working very hard to bring their loved ones home. Did you ever feel like you made a promise to a family that you were not able to keep? Do you ever have regrets?

[Roger Karstens]

Yeah, there was one time. One time, early on, we were so close to a deal. This thing was a done deal, it was gonna happen. And I told the family member, I said, look, I'm gonna go on a limb here and say, you know, clear off your schedule. In two weeks, you're gonna wanna travel. I think we're gonna be able to give you some good news and put this whole case to rest. And, you know, less than two Weeks later, I had to call that person and say, hey, that, that good news that we were hoping to deliver, that's not going to happen. It fell apart. And that right there solidified my understanding that in this business, you can never promise the result. All you can do is say, you have 100% of me. And I feel bad. I feel like I was an absent husband and father because I spent my time on the road. I spent my time with these hostage families. I spent my time with the opponents who take our citizens, and they got pretty much 100% of me. But the one thing I couldn't promise them was the end result. I would say at a certain point, I'd say, look, we know how it ends. You know it is going to end well. I just don't know if it's going to happen in the timeline that we want. But eventually, you do solve these problems. But the last thing you want to do is walk in and say, hey, look, this is going to be easy. In fact, my chief of staff would always say to the families, like, look, you guys need to strap in because this is going to be a long, hard ride.

[Asma Khalid]

Well, Roger, thank you so much for taking so much time to speak with us. We really appreciate, appreciate it.

[Roger Karstens]

My pleasure. Thank you.

[Asma Khalid]

That was Roger Karstens. He's the former special presidential envoy for hostage affairs. Our episode today was produced by Lucy Paul. It was engineered by Travis Evans. Our executive producer was James Shield, and our senior news editor is China Collins. By the way, if you all have any story ideas, questions, comments for us, drop us a [e-mail] and that is a wrap for today's show. Thank you all so much, as always, for listening, and we'll talk to you again tomorrow.

[Roger Karstens]

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[Roger Karstens]

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