The Global Story: The murders that moved a nation: Italy’s new femicide law

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Global Story – "The murders that moved a nation: Italy’s new femicide law"

Podcast: Global News Podcast (BBC World Service)
Hosts: Asma Khalid, Tristan Redman
Guests: Chiara Tramontano (sister of Giulia Tramontano), Sarah Rainsford (BBC Rome Correspondent)
Date: December 14, 2025
Theme: In response to a series of harrowing murders of women, Italy has passed a new femicide law. The episode investigates what this law means, whether it will change anything, and how high-profile cases – particularly that of Giulia Tramontano – galvanized the Italian public.

---

Episode Overview

The episode examines Italy’s new femicide law through personal testimony and expert analysis, asking whether its passage is likely to bring about real change for women or if it’s mostly symbolic. Central to the story is the personal account of Chiara Tramontano, whose sister Giulia was murdered by her partner, and how this and other recent crimes accelerated legislative action in Italy. The show also explores wider societal debates, legal implications, and the role of education versus legislation in preventing gender-based violence.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Tragedy of Giulia Tramontano (02:44 – 16:06)

• Chiara Tramontano’s Testimony:

  • Chiara describes Giulia as a deeply sensitive, kind, and gentle person who “loves to help people. She is kind. She's gentle. I say she's a rare flower in the garden.” (04:16)
  • Describes their inverted roles: “I always recognized in Julia a great sensitivity which could have also been dangerous for her... I just wanted to protect my sister.” (04:49)
  • Explains the period leading to Giulia’s death—a turbulent relationship, suspicions of infidelity, and emotional struggle, but no clear signs of violence: “Her relationship was coming to an end... there was no red flag of violence.” (06:42)

• Discovery and Impact of Giulia’s Murder:

  • The family realized something was wrong when Giulia missed their routine Sunday video call. Efforts to reach her and her partner’s evasive responses escalated the worry. (07:39)
  • Chiara recounts the discovery of Giulia's body and the devastation it caused: “This is the moment to be strong, because in this street we found your sister. My brother told me, it's finished, it's finished. We have to... Don't tell our parents anything.” (09:06)
  • The murder was especially brutal: Giulia was found to have been poisoned over several months before the fatal attack. “She was poisoned with an increasing amount of rat poison, which was given to her in tea prepared by her partner and in water.” (13:00)

• Criminal Trial and Legal Shortcomings:

  • At the time of the trial, no femicide law existed. The partner was found guilty of aggravated voluntary homicide and non-consensual termination of pregnancy.
  • Chiara’s mixed feelings: “I felt it's finished... but I was afraid that the world would forget my sister... At the end of the fight, I was empty. I did not win anything.” (12:03)
  • On the lack of recognition for premeditation: “They did not recognize premeditation which I do believe was instead so much clearer because my sister had been poisoned...” (12:03)

Notable Quote

“Don't live in fear. Don't stop loving for the fear of being hurt.” – Chiara Tramontano, message to her niece (14:52)

---

2. The National Reckoning and the Rise of Italy's Femicide Law (16:06 – 28:51)

• Broader National Reaction:

  • A second high-profile killing – that of Giulia Ceccatin – created further outrage and increased pressure on lawmakers.
  • “The nation was basically transfixed, first of all to find Julia and then to find her killer.” – Sarah Rainsford (20:54)

• Law in Focus:

  • The new law recognizes femicide—the murder of a woman because of her gender—as a standalone crime.
  • “Whilst Italian law and international law has the crime of homicide, from the word for man, femicide is distinctly about the murder of a woman because of her gender...” – Sarah Rainsford (19:26)
  • The law defines femicide as murder “as an act of control, as an act of domination, as an act of subjugation... specifically because she's a woman.” (19:56)

• Symbolism vs. Substance:

  • Debate exists over whether the law is primarily symbolic, or if it will generate real change. Some families affected by femicide, such as Giulia Ceccatin’s, feel the new law’s impact is more about visibility than real legal change, as killers can already receive life sentences. (21:40)
  • Critics and supporters agree legislative change alone is insufficient. “You can't legislate away something like femicide... need for changes in the education system here in Italy...” (23:39)

• Politics and Cross-Party Support:

  • The law was passed with unanimous, bipartisan support and is championed by Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni, though critics argue it’s “gesture politics” as it lacks allocated funding for education or police resources. (24:39)
  • “The critics would say, though, this was gesture politics... There's no money attached to this law.” – Sarah Rainsford (24:39)
  • Few countries globally, and only a handful in the EU, have similar specific laws.

• Italian Societal Factors:

  • Italy’s problem is not statistically worse than other countries, but “in Italy, the macho culture is alive and kicking.” (27:18)
  • A tangible need for educational reform is highlighted by a recent scandal: students made a “rape list” in a Rome school, activating public debate and underscoring deep-rooted societal issues. (28:21)

---

3. Education vs. Legislation in Preventing Femicide

• Root Causes:
  • Both survivors and observers emphasize that real change hinges on education and cultural transformation.
  • Chiara: “Rather than a law, we need education... we really teach how to approach the other gender to prevent this kind of violence and hate.” (14:08)
  • Ongoing resistance to mandatory sexual and emotional education in schools, especially from Italy’s right-wing political groups. (23:39)

---

4. Personal Closure and the Importance of Memory (29:02 – 30:35)

• Chiara’s Reason for Speaking Out:
  • She struggled with shame and silence after her sister’s murder but chose to share her story to keep Giulia’s memory alive, especially outside Italy.
  • “Maybe after this interview, people will know more about her. And I hope this helps someone else.” (29:19)
  • “I'm happy one more person knows her now and you will not forget her. So I just made my point. That's it.” (29:19)

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “She is kind. She's gentle. I say she's a rare flower in the garden.” – Chiara Tramontano, on her sister Giulia (04:16)
• “There was no red flag of violence. She was aware that she would have soon taken a decision... to quit a relationship and just start over with the child alone.” – Chiara Tramontano (06:42)
• “The police officer just told my brother, this is the moment to be strong, because in this street we found your sister.” – Chiara Tramontano (09:06)
• “She was poisoned with an increasing amount of rat poison, which was given to her in tea prepared by her partner and in water.” – Chiara Tramontano (13:00)
• “I do think it changed something. I do think it kind of speed[ed] up the trial itself. But I think this is still not enough... we need education in this country.” – Chiara Tramontano (14:08)
• “Her sister's killer was not a monster... but... the healthy son of a patriarchy.” – Sarah Rainsford, recalling Giulia Ceccatin’s sister’s words (22:08)
• “The critics would say, though, this was gesture politics... There's no money attached to this law.” – Sarah Rainsford (24:39)
• “I'm happy one more person knows her now and you will not forget her. So I just made my point. That's it.” – Chiara Tramontano (29:19)

---

Key Timestamps

• 02:44 – Introduction of Giulia Tramontano’s case with her sister Chiara
• 04:16 – 05:15 – Chiara describes Giulia and their relationship
• 07:39 – Discovery of Giulia’s absence and family’s efforts to find her
• 09:06 – Moment of discovery of Giulia’s body
• 13:00 – Revelation of poisoning and trial details
• 14:08 – Chiara discusses the impact of the femicide law and calls for education
• 16:06 – 18:50 – Broader national reaction and the case of Giulia Ceccatin
• 19:26 – Sarah Rainsford explains the specifics of the femicide law
• 22:08 – Importance of recognizing societal roots; critique of the law’s effectiveness
• 24:39 – Giorgia Meloni’s role and criticisms of the law as symbolic
• 27:18 – Deeper cultural issues in Italy and recent high-profile school scandal
• 29:19 – 30:35 – Chiara’s closing reflections on memory, stigma, and advocacy

---

Conclusion

This episode provides a heart-wrenching, personal window into the toll of gender-based violence, explaining why Italy’s new femicide law has garnered such attention and debate. While the law is seen as a crucial first step for visibility and public acknowledgment, both legal experts and families stress it is insufficient without broader efforts—particularly education—to change attitudes and prevent violence against women.

The episode’s tone balances deep empathy with critical analysis, highlighting the human cost behind the headlines and the complexities of legal and cultural change.

---

For listeners seeking more on the topic or to honor Giulia’s memory, Chiara Tramontano hopes that sharing her sister’s story will foster remembrance and encourage meaningful action.

---

Produced by Valerio Esposito, edited by James Shield. For feedback or suggestions: [e-mail]

Transcript

[Asma Khalid]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

[Ulta Beauty Advertiser]

Ulta Beauty's Big Holiday Beauty Sale is back with up to 50% off. Must have gifts shop irresistible deals like the Shark Beauty Flex Style and Benefit Cosmetics. Travel size mascaras with new offers weekly, same day pickup or delivery. And our trusted associates, we make holiday shopping effortless. Head into Ulta Beauty today. Ulta Beauty Gifting happens here.

[HomeServe Advertiser]

It never happens at a good time. The pipe bursts at midnight. The heater quits on the coldest night. Suddenly you're overwhelmed. That's when home serve is here for $4.99 a month. You're never alone. Just call their 24. 7 hotline and a local pro is on the way. Trusted by millions, Homeserve delivers peace of mind when you need it most. For plans Starting at just $4.99 a month, go to homeserve.com that's homeserve.com not available everywhere. Most plans range between $4.99 to $11.99 a month. Your first year terms apply on covered repairs.

[Asma Khalid]

Hey there. I'm Asma Khalid.

[Tristan Redman]

And I'm Tristan Redman. And we're here with a bonus episode for you from the Global Story podcast.

[Asma Khalid]

The world order is shifting. Old alliances are fraying and new ones are emerging. Some of this turbulence can be traced to decisions made in the United States. But the US Isn't just a cause of the upheaval. Its politics are also a symptom of it.

[Tristan Redman]

Every day we focus on one story looking at how America and the world shape each other.

[Asma Khalid]

So we hope you enjoy this episode. And to find more of our show, just search for the Global Story wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Every day, 137 women and girls around the world are killed by an intimate partner or family member. That's according to the most recent data from the United Nations. In an effort to curb violence against women, Italy has now become the latest country to adopt a specific law around the murder of a woman on account of her gender. Last month, the Italian parliament voted unanimously to introduce this term femicide into the country's legal code. Now there's ample debate about whether this new law will actually change the reality for women or whether it's purely symbolic. But the law has strong support across political and ideological lines. And a major reason is that Italy has been galvanized by a string of recent brutal murders of young women. One of those women was Giulia Tramontano. And coming up, we'll hear from her sister.

[Chiara Tramontano]

This was the first time I Decided to tell a non Italian channel about Julia. Maybe after this interview, people will know more about her.

[Asma Khalid]

From the BBC, I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. and today on the Global what does it mean for a country to officially recognize femicide as a distinct crime? As you might imagine, today's episode contains discussions of violence that could be upsetting. But in order to understand why there has been such a. Such a moment of reckoning in Italy, we wanted to hear about one of the stories that sparked this public outcry that eventually led to this new law being passed. As I mentioned, one of the most highly publicized cases was Giulia Tramontano. She was repeatedly stabbed by her partner while she was seven months pregnant. Her sister Chiara now lives in the Netherlands, and that's where we reached her. Well, Chiara, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us. I cannot imagine how difficult it is to hash through all the details of this story, but we do appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.

[Chiara Tramontano]

Thank you for inviting me. I love talking about my sister. Although it's very painful, but having the chance to just say her name to me is very important. So I'm happy to be here today.

[Asma Khalid]

Can we begin the conversation by having you just tell me about your sister, Julia? What was she like?

[Chiara Tramontano]

She is. Because I do love to use the present when I talk about my sister. She's a very sensitive person. She loves to help people. She is kind. She's gentle. I say she's a rare flower in the garden.

[Asma Khalid]

What's the age difference between you two?

[Chiara Tramontano]

I was born in 1996 and she was born in 1994, so two years.

[Asma Khalid]

And so she was your older sister. Do you remember her feeling like she was a maternal older sister to you all growing up?

[Chiara Tramontano]

I would say, no, she was not maternal. I was behaving a little bit like I was the bigger sister. And the reason is that I always recognized in Julia a great sensitivity which could have also been dangerous for her, kind of exposing her to a situation in which I just wanted to protect my sister. So it was, you know, I would say the situation was a little bit inverted.

[Asma Khalid]

Effy, what were the conversations with your sister like in the months prior to her murder?

[Chiara Tramontano]

So at that moment, Julia was already having such struggle, struggles with her boyfriend. And it was a complicated period in which we were just. I was just trying to be close to her because she was pregnant, but still we were growing a little bit apart because of our opinion about her relationship.

[Asma Khalid]

You mentioned her partner who was He. And what did you think of him at that time period?

[Chiara Tramontano]

I didn't spend much time with him. But in the few conversations that we had together, I immediately realized this person is empty. He was a person who likes to put himself first. And that was immediately clear for me was all about his work, his career, his needs. More than the need of my sister or their need as relationship as a family. That was becoming something.

[Asma Khalid]

And so Yule had grown up in Naples. And you say during this time period, when she's pregnant with this partner, where was she then?

[Chiara Tramontano]

During that time period, she was working as a real estate agent in Milan.

[Asma Khalid]

Did your sister share anything that felt unusual to her in the last few weeks of her life? Did she raise any alarm bells about the relationship?

[Chiara Tramontano]

She was definitely an outside tornado of emotions because a few weeks before she was murdered, she had found out there was another person. She was sharing with me all the messages that maybe she had found Eden on her partner's phone and some kind of other strange things like credit cards being used for gifts or hotel and stuff like that. So she was definitely going through a thunderstorm. Her relationship was coming to an end, but there was no red flag of violence. She was aware that she would have soon taken a decision. And she shared with me that that decision was to quit a relationship and just start over with the child alone.

[Asma Khalid]

When did you stop hearing from your sister? When did you actually realize that she was missing?

[Chiara Tramontano]

I think back then was a Sunday. And on Sunday we normally have a phone call altogether a video call in which we share, where are we gonna eat? Because Sunday in Italy is a big thing. Like you cook a lot and if you are not at home, then you call your mom and you take inspiration for what to cook. But that Sunday, Julia did not send any message. After a couple of call, I would say it was early afternoon, we realized, well, it's very strange that we don't get any message since yesterday my mom was in Naples and Julia was in Milan. It's kind of tricky situation. So she called my sister partner and she asked, where is Julia? Where have you been today? He said, yeah, well, I don't know, but I'm now coming home from work, so I will check and I will let you know. But 10 minutes later, he called my mom back to say, I'm going to the police station to report Julia's missing.

[Asma Khalid]

Julia's body is then found. And in reading this story, I see that her partner confessed to the crime. I cannot imagine how horrific this time period must have been for your Family, how did you find out that Julia's body was found? Do you recall what that moment was like?

[Chiara Tramontano]

Yeah, it is pretty clear in my mind is, I think, one of those frame of your life that you will never forget. Because after two days of intense research and looking for Julia, my brother and I, we went by car to the city of Milan, asking rounds in places where she used to go. The day Julia was found, we parked the car in the street and then we continue walking. And on the way to pick up the car, my brother actually recognized one of the police officers that we were used to talk a lot with. And my brother asked him, why are you here? And who are all those people in this narrow street? And that police officer just told my brother, this is the moment to be strong, because in this street we found your sister. Bori. My brother told me, it's finished, it's finished. We have to. Don't tell our parents anything, because we have to find another way. But just there was nothing else to do.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm so sorry, so sorry. I mean, how did you first learn who the suspect was in this crime?

[Chiara Tramontano]

I was watching a TV program, very famous in Italy. The translation in English would be, who has seen this person? There were Bangara men, journalists from this program, actually filming some scenes at my sister's place and it was streamed live. Suddenly, one of the journalists said, we have to give the terrible news that Giulia's partner is officially suspected of murder. And has been just picked up by police and is now at the police station.

[Asma Khalid]

Chiara, several months pass after your sister's body is found. And then at the beginning of 2024, I see that a trial began and her partner Alessandro was charged. There was no femicide law on the books at that time. He was charged with aggravated voluntary homicide. I was reading, among other accusations, including the non consensual termination of the pregnancy. What did you make of the specific charges out of the trial?

[Chiara Tramontano]

I do remember when the jury gave the verdict of life imprisonment and then they just listed all the aggravating factors. I felt it's finished. And with the end of the trial, I was afraid that the world would forget my sister. I cried a lot, I started shaking. I remember I had to leave the room and I was overwhelmed by pain because I was coming to an end of a big fight. And as such, at the end I. I just. At the end of the fight, I was empty. I did not win anything. It was not the verdict that I would have thought of, because they did not recognize premeditation Which I do believe was instead so much clearer because my sister had been poisoned for six months before being murdered.

[Asma Khalid]

Was that something you learned during the trial?

[Chiara Tramontano]

Yeah, it was one of the main points. When Julia's autopsy was carried out, they found red poison in her liver. In the previous six months, she was poisoned with an increasing amount of red poison, which was given to her in tea prepared by her partner and in water.

[Asma Khalid]

Oh, gosh. I'm so sorry. If we look at what's transpired since the trial for your sister's murder, her case, along with another case in Italy of a woman by the name of Giulia Ceccatin, really seems to have been a moment of reckoning for Italy on the issue of violence against women. I want to ask you about the law itself, the femicide law. Just last month, in November, the Italian parliament approved the official definition of femicide. Do you think that having a law that differentiates femicide from murder changes something?

[Chiara Tramontano]

Yeah, I do think it changed something. I do think it kind of speed up the trial itself. But I think this is still not enough to stop people from considering women targets. And from this, I think rather than a law, we need education in this country in which we really teach how to approach the other gender to prevent this kind of violence and hate.

[Asma Khalid]

I heard that you have a young niece, your brother's daughter, who's also called Julia, and she was born in the fall of 2024. What's your message to her?

[Chiara Tramontano]

Don't live in fear. Don't stop loving for the fear of being hurt. I also wrote her a letter. It's something I would love to read for her when she grows up. I wanted her to know that her name is associated to a big, painful story. But this doesn't mean that she has to bring this burden. She must be aware that the empty chair at Christmas table is a big sign for us. It's a sign of a hole, a tremendous, horrific hole that we are not able to feel anymore. But it also represents love. Julia, my niece, was able to fill a little bit that hole with her smile, with her words to bring us back to life.

[Morton Buildings Advertiser]

People choose Morton Buildings to build a variety of buildings for their property any time of year, because they know Morton buildings are built stronger, last longer, and look better. If you need a garage, a stall barn, or a storage building for an RV boat or other vehicles, a shop for your farm hobbies, or car restoration projects or anything in between, Morton can create a building for you that's attractive, easy to maintain, and dependable enough to stand the test of time. Just visit MortonBuildings.com today to find out more. They use quality materials and expert craftsmen with an industry leading warranty to ensure your structure is enjoyed by generations to come. Morton buildings is 100% employee owned with thousands of satisfied customers. That means they're the industry leader you can trust. To get started on your next building project, visit MortonBuildings.com don't delay. Construction schedules are filling up fast, so now's the time to start planning your building project with Morton. That's MortonBuildings.com hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and.

[Cindy Crawford]

I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, Every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty.

[Asma Khalid]

Beautiful skin at every age. Learn [e-mail].

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Did you know that parents rank teaching financial literacy as the toughest life skill? That's where Greenlight comes in. The debit card and money app made for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and track spending with real time notifications. Kids learn how to earn, save and spend responsibly while parents have peace of mind knowing smart money habits are being built with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight Risk free [e-mail] iheart that's greenlight.com iheart it never happens at a good time.

[HomeServe Advertiser]

The pipe bursts at midnight. The heater quits on the coldest night. Suddenly you're overwhelmed. That's when HomeServ is here. For $4.99 a month, you're never alone. Just call their 24. 7 hotline and a local pro is on the way. Trusted by millions, HomeServe delivers peace of mind when you need it most. For plans Starting at just $4.99 a month, go to homeserve.com that's homeserve.com not available everywhere. Most plans range between $4.99 to $11.99 a month. Your first year terms apply on covered repairs.

[Asma Khalid]

This story is unfortunately not an isolated case. A few months after Chiara's sister was killed, another young woman by the name of Giulia Chacatin was murdered by her ex boyfriend. That further sparked a national outcry in Italy around issues of violence against women. That reckoning led to this new femicide law. We wanted to know more about the other Giulia story and the law itself. So we called up the BBC's Sarah Rainsford. She's based in Rome and she's been covering this all. And I began our conversation by asking Sarah what this new law actually entails.

[Tristan Redman]

So it was a bill that was designed to make femicide so the murder of a woman for being a woman, so very gender specific murder, a standalone crime. So whilst Italian law and international law has the crime of homicide, from the word for man, femicide is distinctly about the murder of a woman because of her gender, so motivated by her gender. And this law has very specific parameter, essentially it's about defining a very specific crime which is murdering a woman as an act of control, as an act of domination, as an act of subjugation. And so specifically because she's a woman. There's been quite a lot of discussion about the issue of gender violence in Italy for some time and I have to say it's quite interesting. I'm quite new to Italy and I noticed we have the TV on in the office and on the 24 hour news channel here. I kept seeing the word femicide on the screen and there was an awful lot in the headlines about the murder of women. And I started to think that Italy was like an incredibly dangerous place to be as a female because it was so often so prevalent in the headlines. But it comes from a discussion that's some years old, but I think really caught the national headlines a couple of years ago with one very high profile murder, which was the murder of a woman, a young student called Julia Ceccatine, who was killed almost exactly two years ago by her ex partner. So a boy that she had broken up with. They were both students at university, he wanted to get back with her. He was very possessive, very jealous, very persistent and ultimately he killed her. The man was called Filippo Toretta and he committed this horrific, horrific murder, a very violent attack. And then he went on the run. And I think that's probably, you know, to explain why it captured the, I suppose the nation so much. He went on the run, he disappeared after dumping. Julia's body was found eventually in Germany, in fact, in a lay by in his car because he'd run out of petrol, run out of money. So for a whole week the nation was basically transfixed, first of all to find Julia and then to find her killer.

[Asma Khalid]

How was the crime viewed legally, not just in the court of public opinion, but how did the courts deal with it?

[Tristan Redman]

He was prosecuted for murder with aggravating circumstances, including his possessive and controlling behavior. So in a way, there's quite a lot of discussion about whether this law changes very much. I spoke, for example, to Giulia's father, Gino, and I sort of said to him, you know, would anything have been different for you had this law existed? And he was pretty doubtful because as he pointed out, Filippa is now serving a life sentence in an Italian jail. But I think he thought it would have a symbolic purpose. He thought it was a small but important step.

[Asma Khalid]

Well, what are the arguments in favor of having a separate offense, a femicide, if the case that essentially galvanized the nation, ultimately that man who was found guilty of it is behind bars nonetheless, regardless of there actually being a crime of femicide on the books.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah, so I think. I think it seemed to. It's about identifying femicide as a distinct crime with distinct characteristics. And it's partly about, I think, giving it visibility and fueling a discussion in order to then try to tackle the problem at its root. Because I think critics and supporters of both agree that this is not a crime that you can get rid of through punishment, but it's about the need to tackle the root causes of femicide, of gender based violence in society. And I think also that's why the case of Julia Chikatine and other prominent cases, I think were so important, because they did really start that debate. And I think just to mention one particular thing, Julia's sister Elena, she made a speech the day after the murderer was captured, and she talked about the fact that her sister's killer was not a monster, because monsters are outside of society. But she said that her sister's killer was of that society. She said he was the healthy son of a patriarchy.

[Asma Khalid]

Has the public largely been supportive of this new law? Were there arguments against it?

[Tristan Redman]

I think the interesting thing about this law is that politically it had cross party support. But the people who are critical primarily that I've spoken to are people who say it doesn't go far enough. Not because the law doesn't go far enough, but because you can't legislate away something like femicide. So there's a lot of discussion about the need for changes in the education system here in Italy, and particularly the need for sexual and emotional classes, education in the curriculum, and there's a current fight over that. So the right wing of politics here doesn't want to allow sexual and emotional education in school as an obligatory and mandatory course. They want that to be only optional for parents have to agree to it, and they don't want it for younger children.

[Asma Khalid]

Sarah, you've mentioned that this law had cross party support. And so that makes me wonder what was the Italian Prime Minister's role in all of this? Giorgia Meloni. I find it curious and interesting. I mean, there is a woman who is the head of state there in Italy.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah, she is, although she's not seen as a feminist, particularly here in Italy. But, yeah, she is a woman, of course, at the very top of Italian politics, a very powerful woman here. And she did and does back this law. The critics would say, though, this was gesture politics and this was the easiest thing that she and her party could do. They point to the fact that there's no money attached to this law, so there's no kind of investment in any sort of educational projects or anything in terms of improving police responses to, you know, cases of domestic abuse, for example, and that it's all about just shouting about femicide and not actually doing anything to address it. So I think it's interesting to see how deep this will go in terms of actually changing. And I think in Italy, the reason.

[Asma Khalid]

I ask that, Sarah, is that it made headlines globally when it was passed. I mean, we here in the United States do not have a law on the books like this. Are there other countries who have similar laws of this sort?

[Tristan Redman]

There are a few countries in the eu, very few, and a handful of countries worldwide. So I think Italy definitely sees itself at the sort of vanguard of this. And certainly I think Giorgio Meloni's support for it, of course, helped push this through and, you know, create this law in the first place. So I think it is interesting that it has become a cross party thing, but certainly a law that was driven by women. And then it was passed unanimously, as the judge told me, the men, the men were convinced to pass it. The women led the way. She said.

[Asma Khalid]

I see, I see. You know, we're talking about the case here today of Italy, and time and again here in the United States, we hear about murders being committed against women, often in the case of domestic violence being committed by their partners. And that makes me wonder how severe the problem is in Italy compared to other countries.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah, I don't think the problem here, despite what I originally thought when watching those TV news headlines when I first arrived in Italy, I don't think the problem here in this country is necessarily worse than anywhere else. I think the statistics. It's very difficult to talk about statistics, because every country defines this in different ways. I think in Italy last year there was around about 100, and I think it was 116 women who were murdered. And the Interior Ministry decided by its own characteristics that 106 of those women had been murdered because of their gender. And that was before this law. I think here we say it's one every three days, I think in Italy. And the vast majority of women who are killed in Italy are killed by a close relative or partner.

[Asma Khalid]

So it sounds like you're saying the situation of violence against women is not particularly more prominent in Italy. And so that makes me wonder why Italy was, it seems, one of the first major countries to take this on and make it into law.

[Tristan Redman]

I don't think it's because Georgia Malone is a woman. I don't think it's that facile. I suppose the answer to the question is that because there's probably quite a lot of disagreement about whether having a standalone law on femicide actually makes a difference to the statistics. The jury is still out if you pardon the punishment on whether or not they will actually will make a difference to the number of women being killed in this country. And I think most people who criticize the law or who welcome it, but think things need to go further would say that the problems are much more deep rooted and just labelling something. Femicide doesn't delete femicide from society, that you have to tackle the problem at its roots. And in Italy, it is a very unequal society. You know, the macho culture is alive and kicking. And I should just mention one thing. In the last few days, there's a school near my house in Rome, and I suddenly noticed that that school was sitting smeared with graffiti all over the front about macho men and kind of lots of feminist graffiti. And I then discovered that actually there was a big scandal in this school because some boy, a boy in the school, had written on the wall in the toilets a list. He called it a rape list. And there was a list of girls names. Oh, so there's this huge scandal in this school and now in another school as well in Italy, the girls who are on the list have actually, some of them come out and spoken publicly and say it happened because they were so speaking out for women's rights and for their rights as young women in Italy. But I think it just shows you that, you know, the problem of education, the problem in the schools and the problem of young people, you know, is the real focus now very much in Italian society. And that debate is very alive, so it has certainly ignited that debate.

[Asma Khalid]

Well, Sarah, thank you so much for taking the time to explain this all to us. I really appreciate it.

[Tristan Redman]

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[Asma Khalid]

Before we go, we wanted to bring you some final thoughts from Kiara, who we heard from earlier. You'll recall that her sister's brutal murder helped galvanize the Italian public around this issue. As I was wrapping up the interview with Chiara, she stopped me to explain why she had agreed to speak to us.

[Chiara Tramontano]

I felt ashamed of my life for quite some months. You know, people saying, oh, I don't know what to say, stuff like that. It's a burden wherever you go. You don't feel like sharing. So when I wrote this book, I made an oath with the publisher and I said, this will never be translated in another language. And this was especially meant for not sharing my story in the Netherlands. I wanted to be Chiara here. This doesn't mean that Julia is not part of me. But she doesn't have to be a victim of feminic adults in the Netherlands, because in the Netherlands, she can be still Julia. Like, I still have a sister. She lives in Milan, she has a child. So maybe after this interview, people will know more about her. And I hope this helps someone else. So, yeah, thanks for having signed to know Julia. I'm happy one more person knows her now and you will not forget her. So I just made my point. That's it.

[Asma Khalid]

That means a lot. Thank you.

[Chiara Tramontano]

Thank you.

[Asma Khalid]

That was Chiara Tromantano and earlier we heard from the BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Rome. This episode was produced by Valerio Esposito and edited by James Shield. It was engineered by Travis Evans and our senior news editor is China Collins. If you have any questions or suggestions for us, we really appreciate hearing from you all, so please drop us a message. Our email address is theglobalstorybc.com thank you as always for listening. Hope you have a nice weekend and we'll speak to you again on Monday. What do you think makes the perfect snack?

[AMPM Advertiser]

Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

[Asma Khalid]

Could you be more specific?

[AMPM Advertiser]

When it's cravinient. Okay, like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am, pm. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can.

[Asma Khalid]

Grab in just a second at am, pm. I'm seeing a pattern here.

[AMPM Advertiser]

Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.

[Asma Khalid]

Crave, which is anything from am, pm.

[AMPM Advertiser]

What more could you want?

[Morton Buildings Advertiser]

Stop by AMPM where the snacks and.

[AMPM Advertiser]

Drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravinience Am PM too much good stuff.