Global News Podcast — The Global Story: The Oil Lobbyist Who Tried to Sink the First Big Climate Deal

Date: November 23, 2025
Host: BBC World Service
Main Guests: Jordan Dunbar ("The Climate Question" BBC Podcast), Asma Khalid, Tristan Redman

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the pivotal role an American oil lobbyist, Don Perlman, played during the early days of global climate negotiations. It explores how Perlman’s tactics at the 1997 Kyoto Protocol summit created a playbook for industry influence that echoes through decades of COP (Conference of the Parties) climate talks. The discussion contextualizes this legacy as the latest COP30 takes place in Brazil, examining how and why fossil fuel lobbyists—and their green counterparts—still wield significant influence over global climate policy.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. How COP Summits Work & Why Consensus Matters

• COPs require unanimous consensus—every country must agree for a deal to go forward, making negotiations exceptionally complex and vulnerable to spoilers.
  • "Everybody has to agree to everything. They run on complete consensus, which frankly, does not seem that simple when I think of how my family can't even agree on what to eat for dinner." — Asma Khalid [01:38]
• The size and scope of COPs have ballooned, evolving from pure negotiation to vast festivals of networking and parallel lobbying. (Jordan Dunbar [04:43])
• Business and lobbyist presence is a frequent criticism, as fossil fuel lobbyists outnumber all but the largest country delegations. (Jordan Dunbar [05:13])

2. Why Are Fossil Fuel Lobbyists at COP?

• The UN climate framework permits focus on climate action “while not limiting countries’ economic development.” This creates openings for fossil fuel interests, especially from developing countries prioritizing growth over emissions reductions. (Jordan Dunbar [05:57])
• 1600 fossil fuel lobbyists at COP30—controversy over who qualifies, but their influence is undeniable. (Jordan Dunbar [05:39])

3. The Origin Story: Don Perlman’s Influence on Kyoto

• Don Perlman: a key American oil lobbyist and lawyer
  • Harvard and Yale-educated, former Reagan administration insider, and a representative for OPEC and oil companies in legal and advisory roles. (Jordan Dunbar [08:50])
• Tactics at Early COPs:
  • Used technical and legal expertise to identify loopholes, water down language, and exploit consensus rules.
  • Operated from outside the official negotiating room, sending handwritten notes via aligned country delegations (notably petro-states like Kuwait) to shape the treaty.
    • "He would use a nation like Kuwait, which is a petro state, ... hand written notes saying things like, delete paragraph four, change that word, move this across..." — Jordan Dunbar [12:33]
• Quote (from Perlman):
  • "If you want to obstruct progress or slow down negotiation, there's no better environment than the United Nations." — Don Perlman (BBC archival audio, paraphrased by Jordan Dunbar) [11:13]
• Manipulation of Key Phrases:
  • Debate over words like “urge,” “encourage,” or “invited” revealed how seemingly minor language changes could water down commitments.
    • "'Urged' is a red line for us. There's so much meaning behind them." — Jordan Dunbar (via play re-enactment of negotiations) [15:04]
    • "If you urged me to take some time off work... Whereas if you encouraged me, you're kind of leaving it up to me." — Tristan Redman [15:13]

4. The Outcome of Kyoto and Perlman's Legacy

• Kyoto Protocol finally agreed after all-night negotiations, but U.S. domestic opposition (fueled by advertisement campaigns warning of economic harm) meant the U.S. never ratified it.
  • "For the US it was domestic pressure at home, right? That means that they don't ratify it. Slowing it down, splitting hairs, really. Making it unbelievably complicated." — Jordan Dunbar [19:19]
• Australia followed the US in withholding ratification; only with Russia’s eventual backing did the treaty enter into force. (Jordan Dunbar [18:36])
• Perlman seen as a masterful, determined spoiler; however, the difficulties in achieving binding targets were structural and likely would have persisted regardless.
  • "Even his adversaries had respect for him, really. For the US it was domestic pressure at home, right? That means that they don't ratify it... Don Perlman was part of that." — Jordan Dunbar [19:19]

5. Don Perlman's Motivation and the Ongoing Playbook

• Perlman was driven by ideology—resistant to what he saw as supranational interference in American sovereignty and economic interests.
  • "I think he was ideologically driven rather than say just for money. I think he genuinely believed in what he was doing." — Jordan Dunbar [23:46]
• He established tactics still used by both fossil fuel and, increasingly, green lobbyists today: working through technicalities, legal language, and building coalitions to slow or weaken binding commitments. (Jordan Dunbar [30:10])

6. How COPs Have Changed—and What’s at Stake Now

• Kyoto (1997): First ever targets, the beginning of binding emissions reductions—"historic," but complex and contentious.
• Paris (2015): Broader, more ambitious global agreement—almost 200 countries agree to keep temperature rise "well below" 2°C.
• COP30 (Brazil, this year): Frameworks are in place, focus is on how and when countries will act—emphasis is less dramatic, but still crucial.
  • "This COP is not about those massive agreements... It's much more about, right, we've been given this framework. What are we going to do about it?" — Jordan Dunbar [25:43]
  • "It's this sense of, I've had it described as global shaming..." — Jordan Dunbar [26:15]
• U.S. role appears diminished; global action increasingly driven by technology (solar, EVs), green industry, and countries beyond the West (notably China). (Jordan Dunbar [28:22])
• Host and guest discuss how the tactics pioneered by Perlman are now being used, in some form, by both sides—fossil fuel and green tech/advocacy lobbyists. (Tristan Redman and Jordan Dunbar [30:10–30:53])

Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• "Everybody has to agree to everything. They run on complete consensus, which frankly, does not seem that simple when I think of how my family can't even agree on what to eat for dinner."
  — Asma Khalid [01:38]

• "If you want to obstruct progress or slow down negotiation, there's no better environment than the United Nations."
  — Don Perlman (read by Jordan Dunbar) [11:13]

• "He is rude, offensive, he uses foul language, he bellows and screams and rants and accuses and all this from the COVID of law practice. It's extraordinary."
  — James Cameron, Association of Small Island States, describing Perlman's behavior (quoted by Jordan Dunbar) [12:00]

• "'Urged' is a red line for us. There's so much meaning behind them."
  — Jordan Dunbar (re-enacting negotiation tactics) [15:04]

• "Slowing it down, splitting hairs, really. Making it unbelievably complicated. You're grinding everybody down. And certainly that happened. And Don Perlman was part of that."
  — Jordan Dunbar [19:19]

• "I think he was ideologically driven rather than say just for money. I think he genuinely believed in what he was doing."
  — Jordan Dunbar [23:46]

• "It's much more about, right, we've been given this framework. What are we going to do about it?... It's this sense of, I've had it described as global shaming..."
  — Jordan Dunbar [25:43–26:15]

• "Last year, solar power became the cheapest form of energy on Earth. Right? It's beaten coal and the other fossil fuels. That's just a reality. So the politics is one thing, but what we've definitely seen in the world of climate is that technology's changed. Like the game has changed since 1997."
  — Jordan Dunbar [29:12–29:57]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:09] — Why COP negotiations are so easily stalled/sabotaged
• [04:43] — What modern COPs look like; business and lobbyist presence
• [07:10] — Origins of COP, early negotiations, and the rise of Don Perlman
• [10:56] — Perlman’s specific methods for derailing climate agreements
• [13:48] — How Perlman was allowed access (via NGOs) and operated at Kyoto
• [15:02–15:50] — Importance of specific words (“urge,” “encourage”) in shaping/confounding agreements
• [17:16–18:18] — Media and domestic campaigns in the U.S. undermining support for the Kyoto Protocol
• [19:15–19:56] — Assessing Perlman’s responsibility for U.S. non-ratification and the treaty’s fate
• [23:46] — Perlman’s motivations: ideology vs. careerism
• [24:23–25:12] — Kyoto’s legacy; pathway towards Paris and subsequent climate deals
• [25:43–27:08] — What’s at stake at COP30 in Brazil; the importance of "stocktaking"
• [28:22–29:57] — Diminishing U.S. leadership, rise of global tech-driven climate solutions
• [30:10–30:53] — Modern-day lobbying: the rise of green lobbyists and the shifting playbook

Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced historical and practical look at how individual lobbyists like Don Perlman shaped the politics of climate negotiation—not just at one key moment (Kyoto, 1997), but for decades thereafter. The conversation demonstrates how consensus-based processes, technical legal knowledge, and inside-outside lobbying strategies have allowed industry interests to wield outsized influence—tactics which are now being mirrored, to varying success, by the climate advocacy sector. With the world’s political landscape shifting, and technology rapidly changing the economics of energy, the path forward remains fraught, but not static. The episode closes with a reminder: even as the headlines focus less on dramatic new pacts, the machinery of global climate negotiation and accountability rolls on, shaped by these early and ongoing battles over words, tactics, and public opinion.