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Global News Podcast
Trump: Iran war could end with a deal
00:29:04
Trump says bombing will be more intense than before if Iran doesn’t agree to peace deal
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- [00:00]
Paul Byrne
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- [00:38]
Janak Jalil
This is the Global News podcast from the BBC World Service. I'm Janak Jalil and at 15 hours GMT on Wednesday 6th May, these are our main stories. The US and Iran are reported to be closing in on a deal to end the war. And after President Trump paused an operation to help stranded vessels get through the Strait of Hormuz, Spain insists that a cruise ship at the center of a deadly virus outbreak will dock in the Canary Islands. Despite the local authorities objections. Four women linked to the IS militant group are returning to Australia from Syria along with their children and could face the prospect of arrest.
- [01:24]
Paul Byrne
Also in this podcast there's more than a thousand kinds of Pokemon that has not stopped kids learning them. Why should we not have a thousand planets?
- [01:31]
Janak Jalil
We'll hear why Pluto could be designated a planet once again. Just a couple of days ago it looked as if the fragile ceasefire between the US and Iran was on the verge of collapsing after the American military began trying to guide ships through the Strait of Hormuz. In response, Iran began firing at US military and commercial vessels and at the United Arab Emirates. Then, in an abrupt about turn, President Trump announced he was pausing what he called Operation Freedom. Now, as we record this podcast, there are US media reports echoed by Pakistan which has been mediating peace discussions, that the two sides are close to agreeing a deal to end the war. Mr. Trump has posted that if Iran doesn't agree then the bombing will start again at a much higher level and intensity than before. But given that hopes have been raised before only to be dashed, how likely is it that a deal will be reached this time? I put that question to Jia gol from the BBC's Persian service.
- [02:42]
Jia Gol
Right now what we are hearing Iranian hasn't responded yet. We are hearing that still they are working on the draft one page memorandum which which means removing the blockade of the Strait of Hormuz and also Iranian suspend the nuclear program. But we know Iranian since 12 days war in June last year the nuclear facility was damaged severely and even it was damaged more in recent wars. There hasn't been report about any nuclear activities in Iran in the past few months. So what we are hearing, I think President Trump and also Iranian leadership, they are sharing the same trait. They don't want to go back to war. This is very clear. But both sides trying to keep pace. Both sides trying to weigh out of this conflict. Iranians have been asking for a guarantee and permanent cease fire. And also the American has been asking to remove the blockade of Strait of Hormuz and talk about halting Iranian nuclear program. That was the sticking point in the past negotiation they had.
- [03:44]
Janak Jalil
And so we're still waiting for details to come through. But we heard the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio yesterday talking about how the offensive stage of the Iran war is, is over. And Iranian state media are hailing this all as a victory for Iran.
- [04:00]
Jia Gol
Absolutely. What we are hearing from numbers of commanders, they say the US has retreated. But at the same time, we know Iranians also are under severe pressure economically choking the Strait of Hormuz. Yes, Inflicting economic pain on world economy, on us and its allies. But in the same time, they are choking their own economy as well, because more than 90% of Iranian export, which is oil, going through a Strait of Hormuz. The blockade of the Strait of Hormuz causing pain to Iranian. I am in contact with Iranian underground. Many of them are on economic survival, which means they only shop essential. They don't go dining out, they don't go for shopping. And this is affecting the economy and deepening the crisis.
- [04:49]
Janak Jalil
And they feel that this war, two months of violence in which thousands have been killed, has only entrenched the regime and strengthened the Iranian military.
- [04:57]
Jia Gol
Absolutely. I think at this point of time, if you remember in January, thousands of people killed, simply coming to the street, protesting and demanding change in the country. And I think right now, nobody talks about what happened three months ago. And I think the government is extremely worried about uprising again. Every day, almost. They have been executing young men, many of them, they were protesters arrested in January this year. So it shows the government is still, right now, worry about another uprising. That's why they're trying to deter young people from coming back to the street.
- [05:31]
Janak Jalil
J. GOL While hopes of a peace deal between the US And Iran are rising, Israel has again carried out attacks in Lebanon on what it says are Hezbollah targets. Six people are reported to have been killed despite a ceasefire supposedly being in place between Israel and Hezbollah since the Lebane militia began firing into Israel in response to its attack on Iran. Nearly 3,000 people have been killed in Lebanon in just over two months. I put it to our Middle east analyst Sebastian Usher, that even if a deal is agreed between Iran and the us, there is no end in sight to the violence in Lebanon.
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Sebastian Usher
That may well be the way that it pans out. I mean, we have been seeing in this, as you say, nominal ceasefire attacks on a daily basis by Israel. Today, two strikes on two towns, killed four people in one instance, two in another, and widening the scope of those attacks so into the east of the country and also beyond Velitani river, which is the kind of cutoff point for the south, which Israel has largely occupied now and calls a security zone. Also, the continuing clashes between Hezbollah fighters and Israeli soldiers, according to Hezbollah, down in that region. So, yeah, there's no real ceasefire except in the sense, you know, for people in the big cities. In Beirut, they haven't come under attack during the ceasefire, but there were, again, drones overhead. This sense of Israeli presence is there all the time, which people feel very, very keenly and gives them a sense that, you know, it could break out into a much bigger conflict again at any moment. So we have to see whether Lebanon, which was meant to be included in the original Iran ceasefire, whether there's a real impact on that with whatever deal may or may not be done in the coming days.
- [07:20]
Janak Jalil
Yes, because events in Lebanon seem to be going their own way. Apart from events in Iran. What are the Israeli military objectives here? What are they trying to achieve?
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Sebastian Usher
I mean, it's an objective that they've had for a very long time and has never been able to achieve, which is essentially the elimination of any threat from Hezbollah to the north, essentially of Israel. There was a large scale evac of those areas during almost two years of a war in Gaza because Hezbollah had essentially supported the Palestinians by firing missiles into that area. People have largely moved back now. So what the Israeli government wants to avoid is there to be another evacuation. But again, it's a promise that I think a lot of people in Israel understandably skeptical about. Netanyahu sold this for Prime Minister as this time we will go through to the very end.
- [08:11]
Janak Jalil
Sebastian Usher. The World Health Organization has confirmed an eighth case of hantavirus on board a cruise ship at the centre of a deadly outbreak of the disease. Three passengers have died. Others are on their way to the Netherlands. The Spanish government says those remaining on board have no symptoms. The ship currently stuck at sea near the island of Cape Verd in the Atlantic is to head further north to the Canary Islands, which is part of Spain. That's caused a political row there with the president of the Canaries saying the ship shouldn't be allowed to dock there. But the Spanish Health Minister, Monica Garcia, insists that it will sail to Tenerife, and from there all those on board will be able to travel home.
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Monica Garcia
The World Health Organization asked yesterday for the Canary Islands to be the destination, with Spain identified as the country with the nearest suitable port to deal with the situation. The WHO considers that the Canary Islands in Spain meet the conditions for passengers to disembark under safe conditions and with appropriate health protections. This is not only about minimizing risk to passengers and crew, but also that we have the necessary conditions to protect the public's health from this infection.
- [09:23]
Janak Jalil
One man who was on board is currently being treated in hospital in Switzerland after falling ill with the virus. He's been tested, and health officials have now confirmed that it is a strain of hantavirus, which is normally spread by rats. This particular strain, however, can be passed from human to human. James Menendez has been talking to the doctor who did that testing. She's Dr. Isabella Ecole, who's head of the center for Emerging Viral Diseases at Geneva University Hospitals. What did she discover?
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Dr. Isabella Ecole
It's actually quite a rare virus, even in endemic countries. So it's something that is known to occur frequently in South America, mainly in Argentina. And it belongs to a very big virus family that are called hunter viruses. And you find them mostly in rodents, but also in bats and in shrews. And the particular thing about this strain is that it's among the very few hantaviruses that are apparently able to transmit from human to human, not very efficiently, but there are some reports that this is one of the more transmissible and also a bit more severe. Hantaviruses can reach quite some high mortality in the reports that are there.
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James Menendez
Right. Okay. So that's interesting because there have been some suggestion that the Andi strain was the only one that can be transmitted from human to human. But you say that there may be others. It's one of a few, though sources in Argentina.
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Dr. Isabella Ecole
They list two, and one of them, and the. The more frequently one is the Anders virus. But among this very big family of hantaviruses, it's very rare. So most of the hantaviruses we know, they don't transmit from human to human, but only from rodents to humans.
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James Menendez
You said it's not very effective in terms of its transmissibility. Can you sort of give us some idea of what that means in practice?
- [11:10]
Dr. Isabella Ecole
It's a very rare virus, so we don't have excessive data. There are a few reports that apparently Reported human to human transmission under certain circumstances, from a symptomatic patient to a very close contact to someone who works in a hospital, like a doctor or a nurse, who's not aware of that infection and not wearing protective clothes while seeing that patient. Or in very close situations where people are in close contact. And that was the scenario where this transmission was described. But it's definitely not something that transmits very easily, because otherwise we would see this more often and we would see larger outbreaks which do not happen. So what is happening on this cruise ship? I would still say still a bit unclear. I mean, there are different possibilities. It's not proven that it is really person to person transmission. There are also other possibilities. So it could be that all the people who are diagnosed now or who got sick, that they were all on land in Argentina and they were exposed to rodent's urine or rodent's excretia. So that is the most common way how it transmits. Another possibility would be that there is some kind of contamination on the vessel. So let's say a surface or maybe even rodents on the boat. We don't know. We don't have any information on that. And the third possibility is actually indeed person to person transmission from one case to someone else who was on this cruise ship. And what we can maybe also say about cruise ships, so they play a certain role in outbreaks. Because you may remember that during the COVID 19 pandemic, we also had these outbreaks on cruise ships. They are also known for outbreaks with gastrointestinal viruses like norovirus. So this is really something that can occur because this is just a very particular place where there are a lot of people, they are close together, they have a lot of contacts with each other. So this seems to be a certain environment that favors transmission viruses.
- [13:10]
James Menendez
Just thinking about COVID as you mentioned it, because obviously this will be in people's minds, is it much less transmissible than COVID 19?
- [13:19]
Dr. Isabella Ecole
Yes. So you definitely need to be close to a sick person. We don't really think this is something that easily spreads. So you really have to be close to a sick person. So it's very different to Covid or other respiratory viruses. And I would not be concerned about a big outbreak or an epidemic or even a pandemic. I think the risk here is to have several clusters of people who were in contact with each other. And what seems to make it a bit more difficult that there's a lot of travel involved, like people taking planes or maybe going on the ship later, leaving earlier. So I think that will be the tricky part. Now that is apparently managed by WHO in several countries to really do a good contact tracing and assess the risk. But I'm not concerned about this virus being really an airborne virus or causing a larger outbreak.
- [14:11]
Janak Jalil
That was Dr. Isabella Ekele. And we have more on this on our YouTube channel. Search for BBC News on YouTube and you'll find Global News Podcast in the podcast section. There's a new story available every weekday. The Australian authorities say a group of 13 of its citizens, thought to be the wives and children of IS fighters, is returning home from Syria. The four women and nine children who had been held or born in a camp in northern Syria during the past seven years are expected to land in Sydney and Melbourne airports on Thursday. Hundreds of other relatives of IS fighters remain in Syria as other governments refused to repatriate them. The Australian government says the women and children are not welcome and they'll not be assisting them. But there is little they can do to prevent them from returning under their own steam. Tony Burke is a Home Affairs Minister.
- [15:03]
Paul Byrne
They made an appalling, disgraceful decision. If they have committed crimes, they can
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Janak Jalil
expect to face the full force of
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Vladimir (Evacuee)
the law without exception.
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Janak Jalil
I asked our Australia correspondent, Simon Atkinson what more we know about the women and children.
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Simon Atkinson
So we know that there were 34 Australians in the Raj camp in northeast Syria, and they all left that camp in February with the intention of coming back to Australia. But they were quickly turned around. But at the end of last month, 13 of them did leave and they got to Damascus and, as we hear, are expected to be getting on planes from Syria into Australia, coming through Qatar, we believe. We know that some of them, the children, were born in those refugee camps, born to mothers who'd gone out there during the war in Syria at a time when it was illegal to travel from Australia to there because it was a war zone. And they did go out there, it's understood, to marry IS fighters. So they are all Australian citizens. As we heard from Tony Burke, the government doesn't want them here, but the reality is they all have Australian passports and they're all Australian citizens. And there's actually not a whole lot that the Australian government can do to stop them coming back.
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Janak Jalil
And they've spent a long time in this camp which also hosts many citizens from other parts of the world.
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Simon Atkinson
They've spoken kind of quite openly over the past seven or eight years to various media organizations who visited the camps and that we sort of know a fair bit about some of their Stories. But it's true, it's quite difficult conditions. The discussion here in Australia at the moment is particularly the situation around the children. The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, has been quite outspoken. He doesn't seem to have a whole lot of sympathy for these young people. He effectively says their parents got them into this situation. And there's a lot of political pushback as well, I think because the attack at Bondi beach, which happened at the end of last year was allegedly is inspired. That has kind of hardened the rhetoric against this group. And so although it does look they are going to be coming back to Australian shores, the overwhelming message from all sides of the political spectrum and certainly large chunks of the community is that they're not welcome.
- [17:11]
Janak Jalil
Yeah, that attack targeted Jews, lots of accusations of anti Semitism. It does seem that they're going to get a very frosty welcome when they come back. How hard is it going to be for them to reintegrate?
- [17:22]
Simon Atkinson
Absolutely. So for those who aren't arrested and charged and who are sort of going back into the community, the adults have spent much of their adult life in Australia. You know, they have families here and so they'll be presumably moving back to live with them and close to them in Sydney, Melbourne, we believe. But it is going to be difficult. I mean, look, the whole mood in Australia has always been quite hard on immigration. There's a federal election by election coming up at the weekend where one nation, the right wing party, is strongly tipped to win its first seat in the House of Representatives. So this gives you a sense of the, you know, the winds of public opinion here in Australia. So definitely for these women and children coming back into Australia, very difficult times ahead.
- [18:03]
Janak Jalil
Simon Atkinson still to come in this podcast.
- [18:08]
Ludmila (Resident of Oleshki)
The apartment we were living in was bent down. Now I'm in someone else's house, which has also been burned. But I'm not moving anymore because there is no point. There are strikes everywhere.
- [18:22]
Janak Jalil
We have a special report from the frontline in Ukraine.
- [18:32]
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- [18:48]
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- [19:17]
Kai Wright
I'm Kai Wright.
- [19:18]
Carter Sherman
I'm Carter Sherman. Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter. We're a new show from the Guardian.
- [19:23]
Kai Wright
We're talking to big thinkers and the best journalists just trying to understand the world through smart conversation and honest reporting.
- [19:29]
Carter Sherman
We don't have billionaires telling us what to say.
- [19:31]
Kai Wright
Stateside with Kyan Carter will come out three times a week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday, starting May 13.
- [19:37]
Carter Sherman
Subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [19:45]
Grainger Advertiser
This is the story of the 1. As a maintenance tech at a university, he knows ordering from multiple suppliers takes time away from keeping their arena up and running. That's why he counts on Grainger to get everything he needs, from lighting and H vac parts to plumbing supplies, all in one place. And with fast, dependable delivery, he's stocked and ready. For the next tip off, call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [20:18]
Janak Jalil
This is the global news podcast. In parts of Somalia, families are once again facing the prospect of going without after years of drought, shrinking aid donations and rising costs that are making it harder and harder to get help to those who need it most. Matthew Hollingworth is assistant executive director for Program Operations at the World Food Programme. He's been visiting some of these communities this week and he's been speaking to James Koppnell about what he saw.
- [20:49]
Matthew Hollingworth
Well, we saw people in horrific situations, families that have been displaced, seeking pasture for their animals, seeking water for themselves and food and just livelihoods, because in many cases they've lost their animals to make a living. And, you know, people are really desperate. Somalia is always, sadly and has been certainly these last couple of years, a malnutrition hotspot in the world. And we are seeing the impact on that on children across the country. But in particular in Puntland, where I was yesterday, where we, you know, it is, it is absolutely horrific. And unfortunately, as you say, because of a lack of resources, we're having to take terrible decisions with partners like UNICEF and others on who we can help and who we can't, because we simply don't have the specialized nutrition commodities to feed under fives who desperately need that specialized food to treat their malnutrition.
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James Koppnell
And those are, I take it, life or death decisions you're making.
- [21:59]
Matthew Hollingworth
Well, it's going to get to being life or death because at the moment we are we're not being able to provide preventative care. We're only providing treatments so we can stave off the worst. But that only lasts so long. And as you don't prevent, the caseload gets bigger and bigger. We've already seen more than 200,000 people displaced this year. The World Food program provides around 90% of the food assistance. The food aid around Somalia, after three consecutive failed rainy seasons, the situation is dire. And even if we are 90% of the work, we can only help 1 in 10 of those that we should be providing food assistance to.
- [22:43]
James Koppnell
You mentioned those droughts. How do they factor in with the conflicts of the Middle east and some of the pressures that is bringing with cuts in foreign aid from the US and other Western countries? Sort of take us through those different strands, if you could.
- [22:59]
Matthew Hollingworth
I mean, clearly all of these aspects are a recipe for disaster. You know, reduced resources, increased need, not just here in Somalia, but around the world, but, you know, particularly acute here. And at the same time, fuel costs around Somalia, 150% higher today in some areas than they were three months ago. Food costs going up as well. Sorghum, a mainstay cereal for most people here, is 17% more expensive than it was before the conflict in the Middle East.
- [23:31]
Janak Jalil
Matthew Hollingworth of the World Food Programme, Ukraine's human rights commissioner, says a town in the south of a country that's under Russian occupation is facing a humanitarian crisis. People still living in the frontline town of Oleshki are said to have been largely cut off from fresh supplies for months, while to leave is to risk a journey out on what's been dubbed the road of death. The BBC has contacted aid groups and officials as well as people who say they're still in or have only recently managed to get out of Oleshki. Our Europe correspondent, Jessica Parker has the story.
- [24:14]
Jessica Parker
Oleshki, a city that Ukrainian news reports warn could be facing catastrophe. An estimated 2,000 people remain, but food and medicine deliveries, we've been told, are scarce, while to leave is to risk your life. So I'm looking at a map and satellite images of southern Ukraine. Aleshki, you can see, is imprisoned by geography and war. The city's in Russian occupied territory, but only just. It lies by the Dnipro river. And right on the other side of the river, there are Ukrainian forces. There are roads out of Aleshki, but those roads say locals have been badly damaged or mined. The call's trying to connect. We're just trying to get through to a woman we're calling Ludmila who says she's inside Oleshki.
- [25:09]
Janak Jalil
Yeah. She says that Internet is very bad. The only way is to connect like this via phone.
- [25:15]
Jessica Parker
The people we've spoken to want to remain anonymous, in part for fear of Russian reprisals against them or their families. Lyudmila's words are voiced by a producer.
- [25:26]
Ludmila (Resident of Oleshki)
The apartment we were living in was bent down. Now I'm in someone else's house, which has also been burned. But I'm not moving anymore because there is no point. There are strikes everywhere. The city seems deserted. There are many empty houses. We've run out of electricity, gas, water and heating. People are doing their best to survive. The town is living off pasta and tinned food.
- [25:53]
Jessica Parker
Ukraine blames Russian occupying forces for what's happening in Oleshki. Russia blames Ukrainian bombardments. It's a city, as Ludmila knows.
- [26:03]
Ludmila (Resident of Oleshki)
On the front line, Russian soldiers are sitting in basements. We don't see them, but they are there. The road to leave the city is mined. So we are stuck here.
- [26:18]
Jessica Parker
A small group gathers around a piano in a bombed out building. In another video, people line up in the dark to receive an Easter blessing. Glimpses, we're told from inside Oleshki. But we've also contacted people who say they recently got out.
- [26:36]
Vladimir (Evacuee)
None of us could endure it any longer.
- [26:39]
Jessica Parker
This man, who we're calling Vladimir, says he was evacuated by volunteers last month.
- [26:44]
Vladimir (Evacuee)
An ambulance took us as we left. We prayed we wouldn't hit a mine. People die every day from drones, mines or shelling. The highway is littered with burnt out cars.
- [26:55]
Jessica Parker
Vladimir, whose words are also voiced by a producer, says the horrors he's seen in Oleshki will haunt him forever.
- [27:02]
Vladimir (Evacuee)
My neighbour was sweeping shattered glass from her windows after a shelling. Ten minutes later, a strike hit just a meter away from her. Workers from the morgue came, collected what was left of her and took her away.
- [27:16]
Jessica Parker
Another life claimed by this conflict aid organization. The Red Cross says it's talking to authorities on both sides, as some residents tell us they hope for a humanitarian corridor. There are signs deliveries into the city may be picking up. But Oleski, like other places, remains in the crossfire of this long destructive war.
- [27:39]
Janak Jalil
That report by Jessica Parker. Is Pluto a planet? It's a scientific debate that's been raging for years. Pluto was a planet until 2006. But then scientists reclassified it, saying it didn't meet their criteria for being one. So it was called a dwarf planet. Now NASA's chief, Jared Isaacson has said it's time to welcome Pluto Back into the planetary fold. He was Speaking to the U.S. senate Committee on Appropriations.
- [28:09]
Jared Isaacson
I am very much in the camp of make Pluto a planet again. And I would say we are doing some papers right now on, I think, a position that we would love to escalate through the scientific community to revisit this discussion and ensure that Clyde Tombaugh gets the. The credit he received once and rightfully deserves to receive again.
- [28:34]
Janak Jalil
The man he's talking about there. Clyde Tombo discovered Pluto in 1930. Paul Byrne, associate professor of Earth and planetary science At Washington University, has been speaking to my colleague Nick Robinson.
- [28:48]
Paul Byrne
A lot of us grew up thinking There were nine planets. But in the last 20 years or so, We've learned that there's actually probably a lot more worlds About Pluto's size Way out in the dark, way past Neptune. And so in 2006, the International Astronomical Union, which is the international group of astronomers who are tasked with deciding what we call things, held a vote. And that vote was to determine whether they would include all those other worlds as planets or whether there would be a need to come up with a new term to declassify, if you like Pluto from a planet and call it a dwarf planet, including all these other worlds as well. And the vote was contentious, but it passed. And since 2006, we now have technically eight planets and a whole pile, an uncounted number of dwarf planets.
- [29:37]
Nick Robinson
Now, you can imagine, for teaching young children in particular, well, maybe me as well, actually, dealing with hundreds of planets Would have been a bit of a struggle. Much easier to deal with eight or nine. But technically, what is the measurement that's being made to decide that Pluto is or isn't a planet? What's the test?
- [29:54]
Paul Byrne
So there were three criteria that the International Astronomical Union Settled on In this very contentious vote 20 years ago. One, it has to orbit the sun. The second requirement is that they have to have been big enough for gravity to pull themselves into a round ball. So that way we don't count things like asteroids, which are often shaped like bananas and peanuts. And the third criterion is that they must have cleared their orbit. That means that they must be the dominant object in terms of mass in the part of space where they orbit.
- [30:22]
Sebastian Usher
Orbit.
- [30:22]
Paul Byrne
Now, it was this third criterion that got people particularly upset, because, per that rule, A lot of places that we consider planets don't technically clear their orbit. And to be clear, we only know a few dozen of these worlds out where Pluto is. We suspect there are likely many hundreds more. We just haven't found them with telescopes.
- [30:40]
Nick Robinson
Now Paul, forgive me. We can't reinvent the boundaries of space all time. So we're. We're out of time. But in a word, what's your vote? Pluto Planet. Yes or no?
- [30:48]
Jia Gol
No.
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Paul Byrne
It's always been a planet and in my opinion, should continue to be so. And I will say this. There's more than a thousand kinds of Pokemon. That has not stopped kids learning them. Why should we not have a thousand planets?
- [30:59]
Janak Jalil
Why not indeed? Professor Paul Byrne. And that's all from us for now. If you want to get in touch, you can email us@globalpodcastbc.co.uk this edition of the Global News Podcast was mixed by Robin Schwert. The producer was Alice Addley. The editor is Karen Martin. I'm Jeanette Jalil. Until next time, goodbye.
- [31:30]
Kai Wright
I'm Kai Wright.
- [31:31]
Carter Sherman
I'm Carter Sherman. Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter. We're a new show from the Guardian.
- [31:36]
Kai Wright
We're talking to big thinkers and the best journalists just trying to understand the world through smart conversation and honest reports.
- [31:42]
Janak Jalil
Morning.
- [31:42]
Carter Sherman
We don't have billionaires telling us what to say.
- [31:44]
Kai Wright
Stateside with Cayenne Carter will come out three times a week. Monday, Wednesday and Friday, starting May 13.
- [31:50]
Carter Sherman
Subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.