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Trump-Putin meeting over Ukraine likely ‘in coming days’
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Putin says UAE could host meeting with Trump, but dismisses President Zelensky attending
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Nick Miles
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk. This is the story of the one he's responsible for keeping a leading health care facility clean and safe and he trusts Granger's high quality H Vac cleaning and safety products combined with their world class supply chain to consistently deliver, ensuring he's covered inside and out so he can focus on keeping his facility clean to help protect the health of everyone inside. Call 1-800-granger clickranger.com or just outpost Granger for the ones who get it done. This is the Global News podcast from the BBC World Service. I'm Nick Miles and at 13 hours GMT on Thursday 7th August, these are our main stories. President Putin and Donald Trump will meet in the coming days to discuss the war in Ukraine. We get reaction from people in Moscow. I am absolutely in favor of negotiation because everything always ends with negotiations. I am concerned about about the problems our country is in, so I wish everything would be resolved. Tariffs imposed by the US are now rippling across dozens of countries around the world. The latest on the three people arrested in Germany accused of plotting to overthrow the state and the dangers of unregulated Botox and what's being done about it. Also in this podcast. Since President Trump took office, ICE has arrested hundreds of thousands of criminals, a career plot twist for a 90s superhero. In the next few days, we are set to see a meeting of leaders that could change the face of the current world order. President Putin and Donald Trump are meeting in person for the first time since the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It is likely the United Arab Emirates will host, but will the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, be joining the two men at the table? The White House says he will be, but not according to the Kremlin. President Putin has told reporters that he is not, on the whole, opposed to meeting Volodymyr Zelenskyy, but he said that certain conditions would have to be in place for that to happen and that those conditions were far from being met. Back in Moscow, there is support for the idea of finding an end to the war. I am absolutely in favor of negotiation because everything always ends with negotiations. If negotiations fail, renegotiation is requ. I am concerned about the problems our country is in, so I wish everything would be resolved. We are always positive about negotiations because negotiations are good. That is not a war. Meanwhile, President Zelensky says that Ukraine and Europe must be a part of any agreement to end the fighting. Ukrainian MP Liza Jasko says it's unclear to Ukraine what agreement is on the table at the moment. I feel very nervous as a human, as Ukrainian, as Ukrainian politician, because it looks like there is some progress, but we don't know the details of that possible progress. We need a ceasefire. We need to end war. If there is any possibility to negotiate with Russia, it can be done only through that countries leaders that Putin can talk to. In this case, it's Trump. Our security correspondent, Frank Gardner told me what he thinks President Putin will do next. President Putin has made this very clear. He expects Ukraine to give up not only the parts of the four oblasts that Russia has annexed and occupied, but also the bits that they're not even occupying. In other words, the cities of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, which are entirely in Ukrainian hands. Cities of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian citizens. He expects Ukraine to give up any aspirations of joining NATO. He wants to address what he calls the. The root causes of the conflict. In other words, he wants Ukraine to abandon any thought of looking westwards, joining the eu, joining NATO, and come back into Moscow's orbit. He wants it demilitarized and denazified. In other words, he wants to completely neuter Ukraine's army, essentially to the point where he will no longer be able to resist the rest of the invasion. In other words, the conquest of the whole of Ukraine. Those terms are totally unacceptable to Ukraine. So this summit, if and when it happens between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin will be all about optics. But don't expect any breakthrough. And it's unclear at the moment whether or not the Ukrainian president will be there. There seemed to be a suggestion yesterday from the White House that he might be. So what can we expect there? Well, I think Washington would like him to be there. Moscow doesn't want him there. What Putin wants is to be back at the top table. He wants to be visibly rehabilitated. He wants to be able to say, look, we've emerged from our isolation, there's a new man in the White House. Relations are back as they were with Washington, and I think to a large degree, that is what President Trump has wanted. But in recent days and weeks, he has been growing increasingly frustrated with President Putin. Now, this is a dangerous juncture for Ukraine because in Donald Trump's haste to finish this war, there is a severe risk here that he might try to do a deal one to one with Putin that cuts Ukraine out of this and ignores not only Ukraine's interests, but Europe's interests. And the Baltic states are very concerned about this, and so are Ukrainians. You heard there from Lisa Jasko, who I interviewed her in Ukraine back in May, and she's quite nervous, with good reason, that this kind of deal will be done behind Ukraine's back. And there's a risk if Donald Trump doesn't come away with some kind of deal, that he might be seen as being played by the President of Russia over this. And that might mean that he, as you say, agrees to some kind of deal behind the back of Ukraine. Yeah, well, there's also the risk that he could feel so piqued that he has been played. I mean, he's already, you know, he's already made statements on Truth Social, his social media platform that, you know, I think he's stringing me along, referring to Vladimir Putin's refusal to compromise even the slightest bit towards a ceasefire. I mean, although he does talk, Putin does talk about an aerial ceasefire, but he's not interested in freezing the war and pausing it. I think there is also the chance that if Donald Trump feels that he's been taken advantage of, that has, as you say, been played, that he could indeed lash out with these secondary sanctions. And just to explain what they are, that's when you punish a country that buys oil, in this case from Russia. He's already done that with India. There's a big chance that he might be tempted to do this with China, and that could affect Russia's war effort. That was Frank Gardner. Relatives of Israeli hostages have set sail in a protest flotilla, a collection of small boats towards the Gaza Strip. Several sailboats carrying yellow flags to represent the hostages, and pictures of those people set off from the city of Ashkelon. Those on board shouted messages through megaphones. We need all international assistance to rescue the 50 hostages who are nearly two years held by the hand of Hamas. Netanyahu's government is doing nothing to rescue them. Well, this comes amid talks of plans by Israel to escalate military action in Gaza. Our Middle east regional editor, Mike Thompson told me more. It really aims to, in a very pictorial way, very good for television, to draw attention to the plight of the hostages. When you think of 11 boats with these yellow flags and protest posters and pictures of their loved ones held up high, they've said the organizers have said to the Israeli government, and I quote here, don't sacrifice our loved ones on the altar of what they call an endless war. There's also some sort of personal element here where one of the families has said, we want to get as close as possible to our loved ones. Although, of course, they won't be landing in Gaza. They'll be turning around and going back to Ashkelon Port. Now, the timing of this is interesting. They say they don't want an endless war. The security cabinet, a meeting to discuss plans to actually escalate things. Tell us more about what that plan might entail. Well, if this plan comes into being, and it's said to be very strongly backed by, it's reported to be backed by the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, it would involve the Israeli forces completely occupying the whole of Gaza. And one of the first things that would happen is Gaza City, where half the population of Gaza, that's more than a million people, live. They'd all be moved south and it would be several weeks of that, and then the same thing would happen in central Gaza. And the fear is that all of this, which could take months in total, could really spell the end for the hostages. And that's why now in particular, there's huge concern. And there have been also, there've been the release of, by Hamas of several videos of hostages, one in a very emaciated condition. And that as well has really heightened concern across the country as well as with the families, briefly. Obviously, concerns also if millions or a million or so many Palestinians are moved out of Gaza City, that could cause increased humanitarian problems there. Indeed, we've already been seeing reports saying that starvation is on or famine is unfolding across the territory. And when you're dealing with a million people, just to start with that operation, you can imagine the problems will multiply. Mike mentioned the situation on the ground there. It is very difficult for journalists to report from Gaza. Israel doesn't allow foreign journalists in unaccompanied. But we received this message from a regular contributor in Gaza City in. In the north of the strip. And a warning. The following message includes extremely graphic and distressing descriptions of violence. She's describing a recent attack. A high explosion occurred. If I hit the ground and then another explosion. I gather my strength. I don't know what happened. The target was unattained, of course. Everyone in it died, in addition to many injuries in the street. I tried to run away until I stopped near the place in a shock. There was a child next to the targeted tent in a swing. I think he was seven years old. He was trying to catch his breath. He opened his mouth to take in air. His hands were holding on the swing rope, but all his interior organs were outside his body. He opened his mouth, taking air, and then stopped moving. I was crying, barely. I couldn't do anything. The child father was. Was in a shock. He threw himself on the ground and covered his face with dare. He was his only son. I don't know how I get back home. I was walking and falling to the ground every time. The image of the child doesn't leave my mind. That was a resident of Gaza City. President Trump has once again been busy on social media, posting this on Truth Social as his tariffs hit dozens of nations Billions of dollars in tariffs are flowing into the United States of America. Now, around the world, companies and markets are having to deal with the consequences. Donald Trump's radical trade policies were first announced back in April and are aimed at reshaping the global trading system, which he sees as treating the US Unfairly. The president has also announced some surprise additional tariffs, including a 100% levy on chip imports. And he threatened India with a 50% tariff, which will take effect on August 27 unless it stops buying Russian oil. This is how India's Prime Minister, Narendra Modi responded. In India, the livelihoods of our farmers, fisher folk and cattle herders are a top priority. We will not compromise their welfare even if we have to pay a high price for this. India is ready for. Indian business owners are worried as well, like Pankaj Agrawal, who's the CEO of no Name. That's an Indian textile company that exports about a million garments each year to the US it's going to become very difficult and practically impossible to export to the U.S. if these tariffs stay. Definitely there is no way out for us except to look for other markets. India predominantly has always looked at the US And UK as the strongest trade partners. We've not had very good penetration in many countries, in many regions, for example Europe or Japan for that matter. We will see a lot of movement in that direction. For more on international reaction to Donald Trump's tariffs, I got this update from our Asia Business correspondent in Singapore, Sonatawari actually, we've seen a mixed response on Asian markets at least, and that might be because amidst all this tariff chaos, we are on the third deadline for tariffs to come in. Markets have largely priced in. What's happening now? There's been so much uncertainty that companies, businesses, investors know now that when we approach a deadline, Trump is either going to announce a new raft of tariffs, as he did last week, which correspond to the tariffs that came in today, or he's going to announce brand new tariffs again, as he said today overnight, rather 100% tariffs on chips so largely priced in. But I will say that things are very volatile, not just because prices prices are still rising over in the US There are concerns about interest rate cuts. And on top of that, we've got more uncertainty and more chaos ahead with these latest announcements regarding tariffs. Yeah, you mentioned the impact on America. These tariffs could well increase inflation in America because prices of imports will go up. What about Donald Trump's claim that billions of dollars are now coming into the US As a result of these tariffs? Is that the case? That's exactly what he posted just minutes before this deadline kicked in, that billions of dollars were now flowing into the US Due to tariffs. Now the jury's really out on whether the US Is actually making money or going to make money from these tariffs. And there's a few reasons for that. One is that there has largely been a tariff pause. After Donald Trump announced his Liberation Day tariffs in early April, there was so much chaos, especially on the bond markets over in the US that he paused these tariffs while his officials talk to various countries around the world to try and negotiate trade deals. So we've not actually seen the impact of tariffs yet, but on top of that as well, there's so much uncertainty on how they will work that it's not clear whether the government will actually get the money for the tariffs for these products going in. And again, as I say, there are many exemptions to the rules, especially those chip tariffs that he announced overnight, although that still is not a formal announcement either. That was Suranjana Tiwari. Since Donald Trump's return to the White House, the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency has ramped up raids and detentions of migrants across the country as part of Mr. Trump's spending bill, which was passed last month. The agency, which is known as ice, has been granted billions of dollars to hire more agents. And one of those responding to the recruitment drive is the actor Dean Cain, who played Superman in the 1990s. The newsrooms is Bella Jewell has more. It's been described as a classic American immigrant story. The baby who crashed down in Kansas fleeing his dying planet, who went on to become one of the country's saviors, Superman. But now one of the actors who took on the mantle of Superman has announced he's joining ICE to support Donald Trump's immigration agenda. I will be sworn in as an ICE agent ASAP. So they'll have 80,001 recruits for their 10,000 positions. Dean Cain played the hero in the 90s TV series Lois and the New Adventures of Superman. Tell Clark that I love him. He knows. And in an interview on Fox News, the actor said this new role will also help defend America. I'M stepping up. Hopefully a whole bunch of other former officers, former ICE agents, will step up and we'll meet those recruitment goals immediately and we'll help protect this country. And this country was built on patriots stepping up, whether it was popular or not, and doing the right thing. The actor, who's a longtime Trump supporter, decided to join the federal agency after posting an ICE recruitment video on his Instagram account, which went viral. Since President Trump took office, ICE has arrested hundreds of thousands of criminals, including terrorists, rapists, murderers, pedophiles, Ms. 13 gang members, drug traffickers, you name it. Very dangerous people who are no longer on the streets. You can defend your homeland and get great benefits, like a $50,000 signing bonus. Think about that. Student loan repayment legally. He told Fox News host Jesse Watters that he backs Donald Trump's crackdown on illegal immigration. We have a broken immigration system. Congress needs to fix it. But in the interim, President Trump ran on this. He is delivering on this. This is what people voted for. It's what I voted for. And he's going to see it through and I'll do my part and help him make sure it happens. ICE has been conducting raids across the US which have seen undocumented people, residents with protected legal status, and even American citizens pulled off the streets and thrown into the deportation system. Some of the raids have been attended by celebrity Trump allies like the TV presenter Dr. Phil. The actions have sparked protests and legal disputes across the country. Until Wednesday, the age limit for signing up to ice was 37, but the Department of Homeland Security said it would remove the age cap. All the better for 59 year old Dean Cain. But ICE also has its sights set on Gen Z Americans who are being targeted in its most recent recruitment drive. Although the under 30s may not be swayed by a 90s superhero, Isabella Jewell. With that report, German police have arrested three men suspected of being members of the outlawed Reichsberger Group and planning high treason. The group doesn't recognize the German state and wants to replace it with its own system. Our Europe regional editor Rachel Wright told me what we know about the arrests. Well, Nick, it seems that in early morning raids in three separate states, Bavaria, Saxony and Theaindia, the police have arrested three men who are suspected of being a member of the Reich Burgers group, which literally means citizens of the Reich. Together with three other suspects, they're alleged to have taken part in a training event with other members of the group in April 2022 at a former German army shooting range. And investigators believe the firearms training was meant to prepare for a possible armed assault on the German Bundestag in Berlin, which was said to have included a plan to raid the Ger German parliament, arrest the Chancellor and key politicians. Lots of firearms were confiscated and dozens of people have already been arrested for this attempted coup, including the so called leader of the group, a man who calls himself Prince Royce, who are all now on trial. The Reichsberger Group, what does it want? Well, these Reich citizens, as they call themselves, are a disparate movement of conspiracy theories and anti Semites who deny the legitimacy of Germany's post World War II Federal Republic. They believe that the pre war German Reich, that is the Third Reich, still legally exists and the post war Federal Republic doesn't have a valid constitution and is in fact a private company and that Germany is still occupied by the Allies. So this group came into existence in the 1980s and is apparently led by a man called Heinrich XIII, Prince Royce, who I mentioned earlier, and he comes from a German aristocratic family that goes back to the 12th century. Some of the group refused to pay fines and taxes, they ignore court orders and they even declare their own national territories, giving them names like Second German Empire and the Free State of Prussia. They sometimes print their own passports and one has even declared himself a monarch, a former karate instructor who calls himself Peter the First. He had a coronation while dressed in ermine robes and a medieval sword. But they aren't harmless. In 2016, a German policeman was killed and four were injured when they were shot by a member of the group as they were trying to arrest him. And then they confiscated his 31 guns. Rachel Wright still to come in this podcast, the upper floors were still recognized. People still lived where the city had been and began to live almost like in a kind of camp among the ruins of Pompeii. A new chapter of an ancient story. This is the story of the one. He's responsible for keeping a leading healthcare facility clean and safe. And he trusts Granger's high quality H Vac cleaning and safety products, products combined with their world class supply chain to consistently deliver, ensuring he's covered inside and out so he can focus on keeping his facility clean to help protect the health of everyone inside. Call 1-800-granger clickranger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. It's like losing him twice. A statement from one of the families of those killed in the Air India crash at Ahmedabad two months ago after receiving parts of a stranger's body instead of their relative when they were returned 260 people were killed when, seconds after takeoff, both fuel control switches on the 12 year old Boeing 787 abruptly moved to cut off, cutting fuel to the engines and causing total power loss. Another family say that other remains were in a casket with their mother when her body was returned. Arwen Greenlaw's brother, Fingal Greenlaw Meek, died in the crash along with his husband Jamie. She spoke to the BBC's Katie Razzle, who began by asking her about the moment she first heard about the crash. So I had come home from work and as I do, had BBC News in the background and I saw the number come up for. Well, I'd seen the tail end of the plane on the screen and the number come up and I just thought, well, they would have never flown Air India was my initial thought. But I called and I was given a case reference number trying to call Finn and Jamie, not getting answers. And I think we kind of knew then really fairly quickly that, yeah, that they were on that flight. And your mother, she flew to India, she did a DNA test and she brought back what she thought were Finn's remains. Yeah, by her own words, she was saying it was chaotic scenes, as you can imagine. And so she, she went straight to the hospital to give a blood sample. I think it's, it was about 72 hours later we got, we got confirmation. So she flew to India and she returned with what she thought were her son's remains. Yes. Which must have been incredibly difficult. The equivalent of losing him twice. So that definitely was a, that's a burden on everyone, really. And mum had obviously seen this situation there, smelt the smells, seen the sights, heard, you know, seen the crash site. I think for her that made it more real to be able to see that. So to come home and realize that's not your son is really tough because that's what happened. You found out that the remains that you were told were his. Yeah. Were not. Yeah, yeah. So the first casket that arrived in the UK was tested and found to be the remains of two different people. And based on that, the coroner made the decision to check everything. And so Finn's was checked against DNA that we'd got off headphones at home. And yeah, we found out that that was, that was not Finn, that was not his remains. The Indian government has previously said that all remains were handled with due regard for the dignity of the deceased and that they're working with the UK authorities to address any concerns. Air India has said it stands in solidarity with those affected by the accident and is fully committed to providing them with support. For years, the authorities in Nicaragua have been accused of illegal land grabs, mainly to grant concessions to mining corporations. Now the government of President Ortega has passed a law that says any land within 15 km of its borders belongs to the state. Critics fear this may open the door to more mining. So why is the government doing this? Here's our Latin America expert from BBC monitoring, Luis Farjar. They are saying it is for questions of national security, of border control. They say they need to fight drug trafficking, people trafficking and other organized crime activities happening across Central America. And that's why they claim they need this control over the border. However, opposition voices are saying that what it might actually be is, according to them, is a desire by the government to make it easier for them to give mining concessions to foreign companies. They particularly point out to an aspect of the new law which repeals a former prohibition for foreign ownership in this area. Now the government in theory would be allowed to grant these types of concessions. So how big is the mining sector in Nicaragua and how much foreign involvement is there? It is very big. It is crucial actually for Nicaragua. Traditionally, Nicaragua's top export had been coffee. However, in the last few years under the Ortega administration, they have been giving a lot of concessions to foreign mining companies. Now gold is the crucial export product for Nicaragua and just in 2024 it grew by around 20% the mining exports of Nicaragua, which now are bigger than $1 billion a year. Also several companies, multinationals from Canada and China play a big role in this new development in the mining industry. Just very briefly, what impact is there on indigenous communities? One aspect of the law is that apparently it restricts indigenous rights in these border areas which are in many cases occupied by indigenous communities. And a few days ago a concession was given to a Chinese company in an indigenous area. And critics are saying that this could actually go against indigenous rights in this, in these regions of the country. Luis Fajardo for many years now here in Britain and beyond, there have been growing concerns about so called cowboy cosmetics. Many people who sell unregulated products like facial fillers and Botox and use them on others without proper training. Training. Now the UK government is saying enough is enough. They are proposing a new licensing system in England for who can and cannot perform so called non surgical routines. The consequences for a botched operation can be very serious. This woman, Ashley, ended up in hospital after developing a serious infection. There was a lot of filler going in, it was a thousand mil. So there was a lot of pressure and I felt like he was Struggling to get it in. As I said on the way home, the pain just gradually got worse. As the anesthetic wore off, the pain just got beyond belief. I thought it was going to die in the back of that car. BBC health correspondent Dominic Hughes is following the story and he gave me the latest on what the British government is going to do. There's been these long running concerns over parts of the cosmetic procedure industry. It's recognized that some bits of it are perfectly legitimate. Others, though, are absolutely not. A health minister in the UK described the industry as a wild west of dodgy practitioners and treatments populated by cosmetic cowboys. And as we've heard from that clip you just played, they can cause serious, sometimes catastrophic damage. So these proposals will allow only suitably qualified health professionals to carry out high risk procedures, such as non surgical Brazilian butt lifts. And that involves the use of, for example, dermal fillers to plump up the bottom to make the buttocks rounder and fuller. There are also plans to introduce a licensing system that will be run by local authorities for the use of lip and facial fillers and Botox injections. And then restrictions on what procedures will be available to under 18 because they want to try and protect them from social beauty trends that appear on social media. As for the impact we'll have to see, there was a public consultation two years ago that demonstrated widespread support for tighter regulation, not just among the public, but also the legitimate end of the cosmetic procedure industry itself. But ministers say they've now got to consult further and then legislate on exactly how this is going to work in practice. Practice Now, a lot of people in Europe fly off to places like Turkey to get cheap cosmetic work done. In America, they'll fly to Latin America. What is the situation around the world in terms of regulation? I imagine it varies hugely, doesn't it? Yeah, there's massive variation. And you're absolutely right, this has become a thing in recent years. People traveling to places such as Turkey, Latin America, as you say, because basically the operations there are much cheaper. Some, again, some operators are great, some are very much not. And in the uk, it's the National Health Service that has to deal with the impact of that when these cases go wrong. Within the UK itself, there are moves from some of the other nations, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, that indicate there's going to be a similar tightening of regulations, as this is a problem that people are getting more concerned about. Dominic Hughes. Bubonic plague has for thousands of years been one of our most feared and misunderstood or not understood diseases. Now, though, Researchers from Madagascar and from the UK say that for the first time they proved that a relatively simple and relatively cheap treatment is a highly effective alternative to the existing conventional way of dealing with this deadly disease. Piero Oleuro is the professor of Poverty related Infectious Diseases at Oxford University and a senior author of this study. He spoke to Tim Franks. In the first place, we found that two regiments for treating plague both work very well and one of which is easier to give already, it's less cumbersome and is very cheap. The other one is that for the first time ever, and as I like to say, for the first time in 5,000 years, we have a study that is conclusive and provides robust evidence of efficacy and safety of treatment for plaque. The evidence, what is called the evidence to back a recommendation, can be stronger and can be more confident that we give to patients for treating plaque works. The other good news is that in the study we had a very low mortality, only 4%, compared to about four or five times as much as we would normally see outside the study. So this is just a fairly generic antibiotic, is it, that people can take orally? Yeah. Ciprofloxacin is a drug that you can find anywhere it's available in Madagascar and other countries. Yeah. And indeed, the research was carried out partly in Madagascar, which obviously has a tremendous problem with poverty and where the bubonic plague, am I right in saying, is endemic? So there are cases every year. Correct. How widespread is it in Madagascar? It's essentially in the Highlands. In 2017, there was an exceptionally large outbreak in Antanairejivo, the capital. So that was exceptional. An urban outbreak, otherwise it would be in villages. Is there any danger that this widely available antibiotic that you talked about, ciprofloxacin, that if it's over prescribed, that there could be the issue of resistance to use of this antibiotic? Yes. It is true that ciprofloxacin, like other antibiotics that are normally used for plague or could be used for plague, are also being used for other indications. The reason why we believe that antibiotic resistance is unlikely is twofold in the first place because we do have evidence from isolates collected for the past several years in Madagascar. There's been no change in antibiotic susceptibility of the of plague isolates at the time. But the other one is also that a bacterium, Yersinia pestis, would be in our organism for a very short time. When you are infected with plague, you would know that very soon. And if you don't get treated, you'll be dead, most likely within a few days. So it's not a bugger that will be hanging around for a long time. That was Piero Olearo from Oxford University. It is one of the world's most famous archaeological sites. A Roman city frozen in time after the eruption of Mount Vesuvius nearly 2,000 years ago, buried under its volcanic ash. But now, new findings at Pompeii are shedding light on what happened. The newsroom's Carla Conti spoke to Jackie Leonard about the findings. What the archaeologists have found are clear traces of life after the eruption of Mount Vesuvius, 79 AD, evidence that people returned to Pompeii and tried to settle in the devastated city. So these discoveries come from a project focused on the Insula Meridionalis, which is a large block of buildings in the southern part of Pompeii. And it's in that area that researchers have uncovered things like makeshift ovens, fireplaces, storage places, places all built into the ruins. So while the ground floors of many homes were completely buried in ash, the upper floors were still visible. And that's where people seem to have moved in and effectively turned these collapsed buildings into shelters. So just thinking about what it would have looked like, it would have been a scene of absolute devastation. And yet people went back. Tell us what we know about the people who decided to try and make Pompeii their home again. So it was sort of a mix of people, really. We know that some survivors of the Mount Vesuvis eruption fled to other towns in the Campania region because there are inscriptions in nearby cities across southern Italy that bear typical Pompeian names. But not everyone could afford to leave or start over. So some came back, and others, possibly homeless or desp displaced, moved in for the first time, perhaps hoping to find valuables buried in the ruins. And Gabriel Zugtriegel, who is the director of the Archaeological park of Pompeii, explained it. Like many people died, many went to live elsewhere, but not everyone could afford to. Not everyone had the means. So there were also people who returned to the site, which was deserted. The upper floors were still recognizable. People still lived where the city had been and began to live almost like in a kind of camp of favela among the ruins of Pompeii. So, Carlo, how long did these new settlements last? And why is it only coming to light now? So, amazingly, this reoccupation seems to have lasted until the 5th century A.D. so around 400 years after the eruption and eventually a later volcanic event known as the Polina eruption took place and drove people away for good. And that's when Pompeii was finally abandoned. But for centuries, that chapter of the story was overlooked because archaeologists focused almost exclusively on what the city looked like before the eruption. So all the stunning villas and the frescoes and, and the daily life that was frozen in time. But in doing so, they often ignored or quite literally swept away the later layers that told the story of what came after the eruption. Carla Conti. And that is all from us for now. But there will be a new edition of the Global News Podcast later. If you want to comment on this podcast or the topics covered in it, you can send us an email. The address is globalpodc@BBC.co.uk. you can also find us on X@BBC World Service. Use the hashtag globalnewspot. This edition was mixed by Chris Murphy and the producers were Stephanie Prentice and Peter Goffin. The editor is Karen Martin. I'm Nick Mars. And until next time, goodbye.