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Uganda boosts defences in DRC as fears grow of wider war
00:29:56
Rwandan-backed rebels have been on the move after capturing the city of Goma
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- [00:00]
Oliver Berkman
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
Discover how to lead a better life in our age of confusion. Enjoy this BBC audiobook collection written and presented by best selling author Oliver Berkman, containing four useful guides to tackling some central ills of busyness, anger, the insistence on positivity and the decline of nuance.
- [00:23]
Oliver Conway
Our lives today can feel like miniature versions of this relentless churn of activity. We find we're rushing around more crazily than ever. Somewhere when we weren't looking, looking. It's like busyness became a way of life.
- [00:34]
Oliver Berkman
Start listening to Oliver Epidemics of Modern Life available to purchase wherever you get your audiobooks.
- [00:43]
Oliver Conway
You're listening to the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service. Hello, I'm Oliver Conway. We're recording this at 14 hours GMT on Friday 31st January. Uganda says it's boosting defenses in eastern Congo even as advances by Rwandan backed rebels raise fears of a wider war. We have the latest on the investigation into the air crash above Washington amid reports of staff shortages in air traffic control and how the far right AfD party is breaching the so called firewall in German politics. Also in this podcast it's a wonderful.
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Yarendradev Jala
Increase in tiger occupancy and it shows that tigers can recover despite the odds of high population pressure, poverty and developmental pressures.
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Oliver Conway
Some good news in India as big cat numbers rebound. Uganda and Rwanda have a history of involvement in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Both are accused of backing the M23 rebel group which is currently on the march in Congo and threatening to go all the way to the capital, Kinshasa. Uganda, which like Rwanda shares a border with Congo, says it's boosting its defenses inside Congolese territory. For his part, the Rwandan President Paul Kagame has denied supporting the M23 rebels, but that denial wasn't accepted by the Congolese government. Here's its Foreign Minister, Therese Kaikwamba Wagner.
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Therese Kaikwamba Wagner
The Democratic Republic of the Congo is being illegally occupied by Rwanda. This is the clear result of decades of impunity and of not holding President Kagame accountable for his flagrant violations and his disregard for international law. The issue that we're looking at right now is a dramatic humanitarian situation. The main city in North Kivu Province, Goma being occupied by Rwandan Defense Forces with as a puppet the M23. A monster has been created in the Great Lakes region. Our call to action to all the stakeholders, but in particular those countries that have been funding the Rwandan regime, is that this madness needs to stop.
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Oliver Conway
For its part Rwanda has long accused Congo of supporting Hutu rebels who were involved in the 1994 genocide in Rwanda. Yolande Makolo is a spokesperson for the Rwandan government.
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Therese Kaikwamba Wagner
What we're living here in Rwanda and what we have been experiencing for the last 30 years is a situation of extreme insecurity that is born out of the DRC's failure to secure their own country and to give rights to their own people.
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Lyudmila
You know what happened here in 1994 with the genocide.
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Therese Kaikwamba Wagner
The people who committed genocide fled when they were defeated to the DRC. For the last 30 years, the DRC government has sustained, has financed, has supported and has armed the FDLR who have stated that they want to come back to Rwanda to finish the job. So this is what we have to deal with.
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Oliver Conway
Well, southern African leaders are discussing Congo at a meeting in the Zimbabwean capital, Harare. Today. I heard more from our correspondent in the city, Shingan Yoka.
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Therese Kaikwamba Wagner
There are a lot of issues that they intend to address. Chief amongst them the fact that the SADC, Southern Africa Development Community Forces, which have been deployed there since 2023, have come under increasing attack. And so over the last week, we've seen about a dozen or so, most of them from South Africa, troops that have been killed. And so there's a lot of concern about the impact that this situation will have on Southern Africa. The Democratic Republic of Congo is a member of the region, even though Rwanda is not. And so I think there will be questions about the future of this particular deployment. It had expected, the term had been expected to run up until the end of December, but there have been calls, especially in South Africa, which has suffered the highest number of casualties, about whether the troops should be pulled out.
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Oliver Conway
Yeah, I mean, we've seen a war of words between the South African president and the Rwandan president. Now we're hearing Uganda is strengthening its position. And of course, Congo has a history of embroiling other nations in the region in its conflict.
- [05:10]
Therese Kaikwamba Wagner
Absolutely. And I think Zimbabwe has learned that lesson. In about 20 years ago, it went into a war in the Democratic Republic of Congo, lost billions of US Dollars, but that really hasn't brought peace to the area. And so I think that's one of the issues really for discussion here is to what extent can SADC leaders bring to bear some kind of an agreement to a cessation of hostilities. But what, as you said, we've seen is a war of words, increasingly between South Africa and Rwanda, where South Africa accused Rwanda of killing its peacekeepers and said that further attacks would be a declaration of war. And Paul Kagame retorted and said that he believes that the SADC forces should pull out and that it's a belligerent force because essentially they're helping the Congolese army to fight against its own citizens. And so I think there really is a fear about the impact that this particular conflict, in the way that it's deepening, will have broadly on regions such as southern Africa.
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Oliver Conway
Chingay Nyoka in Harare was a lack of staff to blame for the air crash above Washington, D.C. on Wednesday night. 67 people died when a military helicopter collided with a passenger jet coming into land at Reagan National Airport just across the Potomac river from Washington. At the time, only one controller was handling local plane and helicopter traffic, rather than the usual two. Sean Pruchnicki is a former pilot who has landed at the airport many times. What's his assessment?
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Oliver Berkman
From everything that I've heard and seen.
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Sean Pruchnicki
There doesn't seem to be anything unusual at all. In fact, it seems to be business as usual, with one exception, that there.
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Oliver Berkman
Was one controller working two separate frequencies.
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Sean Pruchnicki
That's very unusual. That's not what you would expect at such a high density, busy airport such as this.
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Oliver Conway
At a news conference at the White House on Thursday, Donald Trump blamed diversity employment policies for the crash. But Democrats pointed to the president's recent decision to sack the head of the Transportation Safety Administration, dismantle the Aviation Security Committee and impose a hiring freeze that could affect air traffic control staff. At the time of the crash, the Federal Aviation Administration had no leader after Elon Musk called on the previous boss to resign. Pete Buttigieg, transportation secretary in the Biden administration, said they had grown air traffic control under their watch and had had zero commercial airline crash fatalities. Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen also criticized the rhetoric from the White House.
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Sean Pruchnicki
I was absolutely appalled that President Trump.
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Oliver Berkman
Would take this moment of tragedy and.
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Sean Pruchnicki
Politicize it, start pointing fingers at different.
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Oliver Berkman
People without any basis for doing so. In fact, he conceded in response to.
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Sean Pruchnicki
A question he had no basis for.
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Oliver Berkman
Making those claims, and yet he recklessly.
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Sean Pruchnicki
And irresponsibly did that.
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Oliver Berkman
I think he owes the families of the victims an apology.
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Sean Pruchnicki
I think he owes the country an apology.
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Oliver Berkman
We need to get to the facts. What we don't need is President Trump.
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Sean Pruchnicki
Making a political show out of this awful tragedy.
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Oliver Conway
I got the latest from our correspondent Carl Nassman at Reagan National Airport.
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Sean Pruchnicki
We were just speaking actually with some NTSB officials. That's the federal agency obviously in charge of this investigation, and they did confirm that those Two black boxes, the flight data recorders from the American Airlines plane that those have been recovered from the river that they've already begun the process of now starting to extract the data. You have to open up these black boxes and, and then take a look at what clues might be within that information in those boxes. Of course, as you mentioned, there's going to be lots of factors that these investigators are going to be looking at. One of them is staffing. As we heard there, there was one person essentially doing two people's jobs. It's not normal, but if you look at the actual guidelines, it is considered satisfactory. It's not something that would necessarily raise a red flag. Flag because we know that there have been some serious staffing issues when it comes to these sorts of air traffic control towers. The staff that are in charge of safety here. It's been a problem really dating all the way back to the pandemic when we know that many people either left the industry or forced out due to flights being grounded. They're also going to be looking at some other close calls that have taken place in the past. Here at Reagan national airport, just about 24 hours actually before this collision, there was another kind of close call. A plane was told to divert after a helicopter got too close to its intended landing path. So many factors will be looked at as this investigation moves on. We're expecting a preliminary report in about 30 days time, but any kind of final conclusions, that's going to take much longer. We're looking at months, potentially a year.
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Oliver Conway
And has the actual recovery operation restarted after the pause earlier?
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Sean Pruchnicki
Well, looking out the window now, you know, the sun came up here about 45 minutes or an hour ago. It's still cold and the water out there is also really icy. So some of those recovery operations overnight had really slowed down. The people that have been working hour after hour facing some difficult conditions. In fact, we were hearing this is normal. But it does sound difficult that their dry suits, if they used to stay warm, had been getting cut by either debris or ice out there that is expected to pick up now that the sun has risen. It is getting a bit warmer here, but what they'll be doing, you know, is looking for clues. They want to try to recover pieces of the aircraft. And they're also presumably still looking for the remains of, of the other 30 or so people that they have not yet recovered. So certainly a grim task taking place out there in the waters of the Potomac river. Even as we know, you know, flights beginning to really get back up to almost normal Here, lots of people coming to the airport. We saw that morning rush, people coming in with their suitcases, ready to take their flights.
- [11:18]
Oliver Conway
Carl Nassman at Reagan National Airport in Washington. India is home to three quarters of the world's tigers, which are classified as endangered on the international Red List. But now, in a rare conservation success story, a study has found that India's tiger population has doubled over the past decade to around 3,600 animals. Yarendradev Jala is a senior scientist at the Indian National Academy of Sciences.
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Yarendradev Jala
It's a wonderful increase in tiger occupancy and it shows that tigers can recover despite the odds of high population pressure, poverty and developmental pressures, provided you have the right attitudes and the right governance.
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Oliver Conway
Our South Asia regional editor, Anbarasan ETI Rajan, told me how India had managed to achieve this growth.
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Yarendradev Jala
It didn't happen overnight. It has been a project going on for the last four decades. It started in the 70s when the then government declared wildlife sanctuaries are protected, they established new reserves. So basically, some of the reasons why the tiger population went down was rampant poaching and the loss of natural habitat. So once you declare a particular area as a tiger sanctuary, then you cannot set up industries. And also it prevented sometimes local communities to go inside the forest to cut trees or other resources, because under the guise of these local communities, even poachers were moving in. So it has been a broader effort in terms of protecting the natural habitat, number one. And also the local communities are also the first line of defense in terms of protecting tigers. So helping them in terms of providing job opportunities, economic growth, ecotourism, the money coming from them. So they became the guardians of these sanctuaries. And the third itself is taking various measures to stop poaching because there is a huge demand for tiger body parts in the Far east because they believe that in the traditional medicine it has value. So the various efforts have made this tiger number increase. That's what we saw in many new areas where because of the increasing density of tigers, they're moving to new areas where people are spotting. When I was in one of the reserves in southern India, where for the first time they said that tigers are coming from across the other state, from Karnataka, because of the population. So it is indeed a very successful conservation story. But there are other issues as well.
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Oliver Conway
Yeah, I mean, tiger numbers going up, moving to new areas. But also India's population, human population is growing. Isn't there a risk of encounters between humans and tigers?
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Yarendradev Jala
That's what we see in many parts of India where There is increasing human animal conflict where tigers attacking human beings because many communities, they still depend on forests to collect leaves, to collect firewood, and then also take their cattle inside for grazing there. So that is when it comes into contact. And also villages are increasing. So in that case the human wildlife conflict happens and that is when the government tries to solve the problem either by relocating some of these communities or educating them how not to enter into. But then recently we had an instance of a man eating tiger in Kerala in the state where people said it killed three, four people. Finally they found this tiger dead. So yes, it is increasing, but at the same time, the government is, you know, trying to contain by educating the villagers as well as providing them other opportunities.
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Oliver Conway
South Asia Regional editor Anbarasan Etirajan Advances in technology mean more people have devices that offer rewards for meeting fitness goals. It's called gamification, basically turning exercise into a video game. More companies are taking up this approach as they try to win a share of the $100 billion global fitness market. But are trackers and leaderboards a positive step? Shaun Allsop has been investigating.
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Shaun Allsop
Growing up, I used to play a lot of video games which incorporated elements of physical exercise, like the eyetoy for the Sony PlayStation or Wii Sports and Wii Fit for the Nintendo Wii. They were marketed as games first and foremost. But now more people have gamification methods built into their fitness routines everywhere. I spoke with Falaz Assembla, professor at the Near East University in Cyprus.
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Oliver Berkman
The use of gamification in the fitness sector started with the 2000s.
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Therese Kaikwamba Wagner
However, with the technological advancements, gamification has.
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Oliver Berkman
Become more sophisticated and integrated in particular smart devices.
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Shaun Allsop
A report by the media company Business of apps indicates that 326 million people around the world use fitness apps, with 224 million using smartwatches, which made gamification and fitness more accessible. 22, right?
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Therese Kaikwamba Wagner
Yeah, Bike 22.
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Shaun Allsop
I'm in the UK in a gym called Dig Me, about to take part in my first spin class. And what makes his sessions different is that it uses the latest technology to add gamification to the classes with tracking progress, level up, difficulty mechanics and achievements by high scores.
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Oliver Berkman
The key is to make as entertaining as possible for 60 minutes. So it's not just a ball festival going. You've got to try and get a little bit of light and shade in there. It is at the end of the day an entertainment. People are paying, they want some sort of show.
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Shaun Allsop
I'm going to return to the gym later. In the meantime, I wanted to see how Home workouts have changed. In the 1980s, home fitness exploded in popularity with workout videos, exercise channels and affordable home equipment all contributing to a new form of exercise that today is worth nearly $12 billion. According to the research company Fortune Business Insights, the fitness videos are now fitness streaming services like Peloton. They're a company that make equipment like stationary bikes and treadmills and have online classes available on subscription. The senior vice president of product, Brent.
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Oliver Conway
Tureski since the first days of Peloton.
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Oliver Berkman
We'Ve had the idea of a leaderboard showing you people with yourself when you get started and we start tracking how many days in a row that you've worked out. That notion of streaks really matter to some members where their personal identity says, you know, I'm a fit person and I'm going to maintain my weekly workout streak. When the smartphone came out and people started getting notifications, we'll add notifications into our experiences to help people achieve their fitness goals.
- [17:51]
Shaun Allsop
Back at Digme Gym in the uk, my spin class is nearly finished.
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Sean Pruchnicki
Results I'm from James Silver.
- [18:00]
Oliver Conway
The record Go for NN Is it.
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Shaun Allsop
N It was pretty intense, but I had fun. The scores are read out at the end, there's a leaderboard and some people have gotten their points, some people have leveled up. I've not got many points, but it's my first time and I'm a swimmer, not a cyclist.
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Oliver Conway
Sean Allsop reporting. And you can hear more stories like that by searching for Business Daily. Wherever you get your BBC podcasts and still to come on the Global News podcast today, Taranaki Mangatpuna is released from.
- [18:30]
Oliver Berkman
The shackles of injustice, of ignorance, of hate.
- [18:34]
Oliver Conway
A mountain in New Zealand gets the same legal rights as a person.
- [18:46]
Oliver Berkman
Discover how to lead a better life in our age of confusion. Enjoy this BBC audiobook collection written and presented by best selling author Oliver Berkman, containing four useful guides to tackling some central ills of busyness, anger, the insistence on positivity and the decline of nuance.
- [19:03]
Oliver Conway
Our lives today can feel like miniature versions of this relentless churn of activity. We find we're rushing around more crazily than ever. Somewhere when we weren't looking, it's like busyness became a way of life.
- [19:14]
Oliver Berkman
Start listening to Oliver Epidemics of Modern Life Available to purchase wherever you get your audiobooks.
- [19:25]
Oliver Conway
The Palestinian group Hamas has handed over the names of the next hostages to be freed as part of the Gaza ceasefire deal with Israel on Saturday. In return, more Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails will be released from Jerusalem. Here's Joe Inwood, Keith Seagal, Yardan Bibas and Ofa Calderon.
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Oliver Berkman
The name which people may recognize first.
- [19:45]
Oliver Conway
I guess is Yardan Bibas.
- [19:47]
Oliver Berkman
The abduction of Mr. Bibas and his.
- [19:49]
Oliver Conway
Wife Shuri and their children Ariel and.
- [19:51]
Oliver Berkman
Kfir from near Oz was one of the defining images of the start of.
- [19:56]
Oliver Conway
This conflict of October 7th.
- [19:57]
Oliver Berkman
These two tiny red headed children being taken away in their mother's arms on a motorbike.
- [20:02]
Oliver Conway
And ever since then there's been real concern around the fate specifically of Shiri.
- [20:08]
Sean Pruchnicki
And the two children.
- [20:09]
Oliver Conway
Joe Inward reporting. They call it Germany's firewall, the refusal of established political parties to cooperate with the far right. But the first cracks appeared on Wednesday when a non binding motion on migration passed in the Bundestag with the help of the far right AfD. Today, German MPs have begun debating actual legislation on immigration put forward by the man tipped to be Germany's next leader, Friedrich Mertz of the Conservative CDU. Critics have staged protests outside the CDU's headquarters. Jens Zimmerman is an MP for the governing Social Democratic Party.
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Sean Pruchnicki
Dietrich Metz, everybody, also in my own party, we said if he goes into the basement saying nothing for the next four weeks he will sail into the Chancellery. But he was in a very obviously emotional moment. He went in front of the cameras and simply said, I want to have this vote and I don't care where the votes are coming from. And this is so wrong. It was emotional and now people are asking questions, is this person fit for office?
- [21:19]
Oliver Conway
Well, the debate on the immigration legislation was delayed earlier today amid disagreements between the parties. But it got underway just before we started recording this podcast. Our correspondent Damian McGuinness was watching from Berlin.
- [21:32]
Oliver Berkman
Right now I'm watching the debate from here, Oliver, and I can see the leader of the Conservative Party, Friedrich Merz. He's just stepped up to the podium. He's now addressing Parliament. We've just had an incredibly fiery speech from one of the leaders of Olaf Scholz's center left Social Democrat party. He accused the Conservatives of opening the doors to hell by allowing his motion. On Wednesday, his parliamentary motion, a non binding suggestion to Parliament to be supported by the AfD. Now the conservatives have gone a step further today and today we are talking about a bill, so a draft for a concrete law. Both parliamentary procedures are about limiting migration. Both contain some quite dramatic and drastic and for many people quite controversial measures about limiting migration. But potentially just as controversial as the measures themselves is this idea that the leader of the Conservatives, Friedrich Merzen, who as you say is tipped to be Germany's next chancellor, looking at the polls right now, appears to be prepared to allow suggestions and bills he puts forward to be supported by the far right afd. And this is unprecedented in German politics because in modern Germany you've always had this so called firewall, which essentially keeps the AFD out of political power and means that they would have no influence on the government. This firewall now appears to be crumbling because what the leader of the conservatives has done, he has allowed the far right to push through, or with the far right support, he has managed to push through business, through parliament. And that, for many people, is the first step of the falling of this firewall.
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Oliver Conway
Yeah. So if Friedrich Mertz gets this bill through today with the help of the AfD, what will it mean for the election?
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Oliver Berkman
Yeah, I mean, the bill itself probably won't go much further because it's unlikely to go through the upper house because it's quite controversial. So many people in the upper house, they're the regional leads of Germany, have said they're not going to support it, they're going to block it. So the bill itself will probably stop here. But from a symbolic and electioneering point of view, it's hard to overstate the importance of it, because what it's done, it's really polarised the German political party system even more than it was before. And what we're now seeing is a huge divide between the right and the left. And what we've also seen is that Friedrich Merz's Conservative Party has taken a hard line tack on migration. What he's done, he's pulled his party to the right, he's saying goodbye to the era of Angela Merkel, who's a centrist, who wants to win elections in the centre ground. And what he's trying to do is, by talking so hardline on migration, he wants to win back right wing voters who have defected towards the far right. But many people say that his suggestions and, you know, letting himself be supported by the far right is Simply legitimizing the AfD rather than undermining it. And I think that's why the debate right now in the Bundestag is so ferocious, because it's all about whether this is going to help the far right rather than take away their support.
- [24:37]
Oliver Conway
Damian McGuinness, Berlin. Nearly three years of war and the occupation of a huge chunk of Ukraine has left more than 60,000 people missing. Some are soldiers missing in action, many others are civilians detained by Russian forces and then disappeared. And while Ukraine sometimes gets prisoners of war. Back in swaps with Russia, civilians are very rarely returned. Sarah Rainsford has met one woman desperate to know what happened to her parents after the Russians took over her town.
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Lyudmila
Every morning they were apart, Tatiana sent a video message to her only child. It was a daily check in because she and her husband were living under Russian occupation in southeastern Ukraine, and their daughter was worried. Ludmila shows me a phone full of those messages and of memories. One is her dad's 50th birthday. In life before the Russians invaded. In all the images, Tatiana and Oleg are full of laughter and Life. But in September 2023, they were detained by Russian soldiers and disappeared. Lyudmila's grand saw it all, as armed men dressed in black burst into their home and took Tatiana and Oleg away in handcuffs. For four months, there was no trace of them. Then one day, Tatiana was abandoned at a hospital in a coma. She never regained consciousness.
- [26:29]
Oliver Conway
It's just so tough to think what.
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Lyudmila
They did to her and why. My mom was 51. She loved life.
- [26:37]
Oliver Conway
Then everything was cut short.
- [26:41]
Lyudmila
Lyudmila's father has still not been found. If, God forbid, something happens to my dad, it will kill me. When the Russian army first rolled into Melitopol, Lyudmila joined the protests. Crowds sang their defiance, then waving Ukrainian flags in front of tanks and telling the troops to go home. Then the Russians began rounding them up. Lyudmila fled, but her parents stayed. I'd say, mom, maybe you should leave, and she'd say, just a little more time. Tatyana was convinced that Ukrainian troops would retake their city soon and liberate them. Some people die on the battlefield and others die in occupation, helping Ukraine in other ways. To me, she is a warrior. She knew the risks, but she had to help. Lyudbille now knows her mother was charged with espionage, but only after she was dumped at hospital unconscious. No one will say where she was held before that or what happened to her. And her father is officially missing, although he was taken by Russian troops. This is not an isolated case. In Kyiv, the Red Cross runs a helpline, and most people calling have missing relatives, too. Soldiers and civilians. The staff take details and fill in a database, but a tracing system can only work with information. And although international law says both sides in a war have to inform about all detainees, Russia just doesn't do that.
- [28:48]
Oliver Conway
Sarah Rainsford reporting. After years of negotiations, a settlement has been reached in New Zealand that allows a mountain the same legal right as a human. Rebecca Wood reports.
- [28:59]
Oliver Berkman
Taranaki Munga is a Pristine snow capped dormant volcano and standing at over 2,500 metres, it's the second highest mountain on New Zealand's North Island. It's known for its beauty, hiking, snow, sports and now something else.
- [29:15]
Oliver Conway
Today, Taranaki Aumanga Tpuna is released from.
- [29:18]
Oliver Berkman
The shekels of injustice, of ignorance, of hate.
- [29:22]
That's Debi Ngarewa Paka, a co leader of the political party Te Parti Mori and a descendant of the Taranaki tribes. She's speaking during the Parliament session that passed the law giving the mountain all the rights, powers and responsibilities of a person. The agreement aims to compensate Mori from the region for injustices done to them during and after colonisation, including widespread land confiscation. Paul Goldsmith is the government minister responsible for the negotiations.
- [29:52]
Oliver Conway
Mountain has long been an honoured ancestor, a source of physical, cultural and spiritual sustenance and a final resting place. Traditional Mori practices associated with the mountains were banned while tourism was promoted. Pests such as possums were introduced and led to destruction of the native forest in some parts.
- [30:11]
Oliver Berkman
The mountain will no longer be officially known as Egmont, that was the name given to it by British explorer James cook in the 18th century, and instead be called Taranaki Maunga. It will effectively own itself with representatives of the local tribes and government working together to manage it. Hundreds of other Mori turned up at Parliament on Thursday to see the bill become law and burst into song when it did. The mountains not alone in being a natural feature of New Zealand to be granted legal personhood in 2018. In 2014, a native forest became the first to gain such status in the world, followed by a River in 2017.
- [30:58]
Oliver Conway
Rebecca Wood that's all from us for now, but the Global News podcast will be back very soon. This edition was mixed by Mark Pickett and produced by David Lewis. Our editor's Karen Martin. I'm Oliver Conway. Until next time. Goodbye.
- [31:21]
Oliver Berkman
Discover how to lead a better life in our age of confusion. Enjoy this BBC audiobook collection written and presented by best selling author Oliver Berkman. Containing four useful guides to tackling some central ills of busyness, anger, the insistence on positivity and the decline of nuance.
- [31:38]
Oliver Conway
Our lives today can feel like miniature versions of this relentless churn of activity. We find we're rushing around more crazily than ever. Somewhere when we weren't looking. It's like busyness became a way of life.
- [31:49]
Oliver Berkman
Start listening to Oliver. Epidemics of Modern Life. Available to purchase wherever you get your audiobooks.