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UN warns entire Gaza population at risk of famine
00:29:57
UN humanitarian chief says the world has a responsibility to do more
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- [00:00]
Oliver Conway
You're listening to the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service. Hello, I'm Oliver Conway. We're recording this at 13 hours GMT on Friday 30th May. The UN says the entire population of Gaza is at risk of famine, even as Hamas downplays the chances of a ceasefire deal. A BBC investigation finds the EU has spent more on Russian oil and gas than aid to Ukraine. And we hear from Jewish students who could be caught up in President Trump's crackdown on Harvard University. Also in the podcast, why plastic waste is filling the stomachs of birds in Australia. When will the war in Gaza end? Israel says it intends to keep fighting until Hamas is destroyed. And the far right Minister Itamar Ben GVIR says now is the time to use, quote, full force in the territory. The US has proposed a ceasefire deal, which it says Israel accepts. But Hamas says the plan doesn't include a permanent end to the fighting. It also wants guaranteed aid deliveries. Today, the UN warned that the entire population of Gaza is at risk of famine. The humanitarian chief, Tom Fletcher, says the world has a responsibility to do more. As Fergal Keene reports.
- [01:26]
Fergal Keene
The chaos and the pity, the desperation, that is the legacy when aid is blocked. Today, the UN's Chief of Humanitarian affairs, a former British diplomat, told me Israel had forcibly starved Gaza. Out loud. Israeli ministers have been saying that they want the population of Gaza to be relocated. Is that ethnic cleansing? It's the forced removal of a population, ethnic cleansing, and in this case, by withholding of aid. Again, the courts will judge what to call that. And I have to pick my words very carefully. I'm a humanitarian, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a politician. To be clear, what we are seeing is the forced starvation of the population. We're seeing food sat on the borders and not being allowed in when there is a population on the other side of the border that is starving. And we're hearing Israeli ministers say that is to put pressure on the population of Gaza. That's a war crime, isn't it? If you use food as a weapon, yeah, it is classified as a war crime. Obviously, these are issues for the courts, the to take the judgment on and ultimately for history to take a judgment on. Israel has claimed that Hamas steals food aid, and it accuses the UN of acting like a mafia by refusing to cooperate with Israel's military organized aid distribution centers. Well, the Israelis say they have to do it their way because Hamas is stealing the aid. There's very, very little stealing of aid by Hamas now. Is some of that aid then getting to market and being stolen by Hamas from market. There's always a risk of that in such a complex, contested, militarized environment. I don't want to see any of that aid getting to Hamas. That matters to us, because these are our principles, neutral, impartiality, independent. So it's in our interest to stop that aid getting to Hamas and ensure it gets to civilians. Mr. Fletcher visited Gaza in February while there was still a ceasefire. In recent days, he's come under criticism for stating that 14,000 babies would die in 48 hours because of the blockade, a claim the UN has retracted. Didn't you damage your own case when you talked about 14,000 babies dying within 48 hours? Pretty big gaffe, I think we've got to be very, very careful with our numbers. We've got to be precise. And that's a lesson that I've learned in the last couple of weeks. Are you sorry for that? I regret that I used that 48 hours because in reality, those deaths will take place over a longer time. But they are at risk because when people take that. And along with the statement about thousands of trucks lined up on the border not being able to get in, Mr. Fletcher drew international attention when two weeks ago, he appealed to the UN Security Council to act to prevent genocide in Gaza, a statement Israel attacked as support for Hamas. But how will history judge how the world responded to the Gaza crisis? When I went to the Security Council, I chose my words very, very carefully, and I'm choosing them again carefully now. I wanted to issue a warning to the Security Council that in previous cases, Rwanda, Subrenica, Sri Lanka, the world had told us afterwards that we didn't act in time, that we didn't sound the warning and ask that the world respond to prevent genocide. And that's my call to the Security Council in the world right now. Will you act to prevent genocide?
- [04:38]
Oliver Conway
The UN's humanitarian chief, Tom Fletcher, talking to Fergal Keen. So what are the prospects for a ceasefire in Gaza as Hamas continues to assess the U. S proposed deal? I asked our Gaza correspondent, Rushdie Abu Alouf in Cairo.
- [04:53]
Rushdie Abu Alouf
Hamas said it's very unlikely that they would accept this because they said the gap between the talks with the Americans through their back channel in Doha and what is in the new Witkoff proposal is too big. They said we haven't seen any guarantee that Israel will not resume fighting after the six days of the ceasefire. We haven't seen any clear line about the way the humanitarian aid would be allowed into Gaza what Hamas said they need the same humanitarian protocol that was back in ceasefire in January, which allow 500 trucks every day, including fuel to hospital and to be distributed by the UN agencies, not by this new American backed foundation that they said it's very risky for the people and it's in an area under Israeli security control. And the third main sticking point and issue for Hamas is that the new proposal did not include or show how Israel would reposition to the area. I mean taking their forces out of different areas in Gaza to the position where they were before resuming the war back in March. So it seems that the gap is too big and it is very unlikely that Hamas would accept this, as a senior Hamas official told me last night.
- [06:07]
Oliver Conway
And yet they haven't rejected it entirely. They say they're still studying it. So could there be room for negotiation?
- [06:13]
Rushdie Abu Alouf
There is always room for negotiation. And we understand here the Egyptian were on the line with Hamas this morning. The Qataris are maintaining some pressure. The Turkish authority were also in contact with Hamas. So too many players are trying to understand what's going on and trying to put pressure in Hamas. But based on what I got most of the time from Hamas leaders, including one who participated in the meetings with this backed channel with the American businessman and it doesn't like that. There is much hope that this issue will be resolved, but the talks will not stop.
- [06:45]
Oliver Conway
And what is the latest on aid getting into Gaza?
- [06:49]
Rushdie Abu Alouf
The American foundation said that they have opened up three centers to distribute food and yesterday was very chaotic and people pricked inside the center and they steal everything inside it. That this seems to be suspending operations in 2 cents and there is only one place in Rafah. And the problem is that, you know, Gaza is divided into two places, south and north and most of the centers are in the south. So about half of the population in northern Gaza are not getting any aid since the Israel resumed with about 7 to 800 trucks only allowed into Gaza is not enough and people call it a drop in the ocean.
- [07:28]
Oliver Conway
In Egypt, a BBC investigation has found that Western nations are helping fund Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine through purchases of Russian oil and gas. Our analysis found that Kyiv's allies spent more on buying fossil fuels from Russia than on supporting the Ukrainians. Vitaly Shevchenko, Russia editor at BBC Monitoring, has compiled this report.
- [07:49]
Fergal Keene
At the G7 meeting this afternoon, we agreed to work in unity to maximize the economic price that Putin will pay for his aggression. And this must include ending Europe's collective dependence on Russian oil and gas.
- [08:05]
Vitaly Shevchenko
Prime Minister Boris Johnson, speaking in Parliament on day one of Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Back then, he announced heavy sanctions on Russian fossil fuel imports. But more than three years later, Ukraine's allies are still paying billions for Russian oil and and gas. Since that speech by Boris Johnson, NATO member states and sanctioning countries have spent tens of billions of euros more on Russian oil and gas than on aid for Ukraine. Last year alone, EU member states paid Russia 22 billion euros for its fossil fuels. That's 4 billion euros more than they gave Ukraine in aid. Russia has made more than three times as much money through exporting hydrocarbons than Ukraine has received in various types of aid from its allies. In total and according to data from the center for Research on Energy and Clean Air and the Kiel Institute for the World Economy. Mai Ruschner, a senior campaigner from the pressure group Global Witness, says many Western politicians are concerned that cutting imports of Russian fuels will lead to higher energy prices.
- [09:10]
Fergal Keene
There's not a real desire in many governments to actually limit Russia's ability to produce and sell oil. There was way too much fear about what that would mean for global energy markets. This dependence on fossil fuels means that we are really at the whims of global energy producers and the hostile dictators therefore, who oversee a lot of that product.
- [09:34]
Vitaly Shevchenko
The EU's foreign policy chief, Kaya Kallas, admits that the alliance has not done enough to end oil and gas imports from Russia.
- [09:42]
Dr. Erin Mills
We haven't had the strongest sanctions. I mean, if you think about where their money for fueling this war comes from, it comes from oil and gas. We haven't put strong sanctions on that because we haven't had an agreement on that. There are some fears among some member states on what would further escalate the war and what would, you know, stop it.
- [10:05]
Vitaly Shevchenko
So what can Western governments do to stop oil and gas imports from funding Russia's war against Ukraine? Former Russian Deputy Energy Minister Vladimir Milov says sanctions should be better enforced, particularly the oil price cap adopted by the G7 group of nations, which he says says is not working. Complexity and consistency are the recipes which.
- [10:27]
Fergal Keene
Might finally force Putin to end the war after a certain time.
- [10:32]
Vitaly Shevchenko
I think what is more important at this moment is enforcement of sanctions, making sure that they are fully implemented rather than even adopting new ones. I think enforcement is key and proper enforcement matters a lot more than actually discussion about which new sanctions should be introduced. Since the start of the full scale invasion of Ukraine, Western nations have greatly reduced fossil fuel imports from Russia. And the EU plans to stop Russian gas imports by the end of 2027. In the meantime, some of the Russian drones and missiles attacking Ukraine have been paid for by Ukraine's own allies.
- [11:12]
Oliver Conway
Vitaly Shevchenko of BBC Monitoring Parents know best is a saying that some may dispute, but it may actually be true when it comes to their child's health. New research has found that a mum or dad's gut instinct can give an important indication of childhood illness, even when it's missed by medical tests. Dr. Erin Mills of Monash University in Melbourne spoke about the study to the BBC's Simon Jack.
- [11:37]
Dr. Erin Mills
So what we did is we included one simple question. We asked parents, are you worried your child is getting worse? And then we compared the outcomes for the children whose parents said yes versus the outcomes for children whose parents said no. And what we found was that when a parent said, I'm worried, that was more strongly associated with the child ending up in the intensive care unit or on a mechanical ventilator to help them with their breathing than that child having any abnormal vital sign. And that included heart rate, breathing rate, conscious state, blood pressure or oxygen levels.
- [12:13]
Fergal Keene
That's quite an astonishing finding, that, isn't it? I mean. I mean, how do you think these.
- [12:17]
Vitaly Shevchenko
Findings should be used?
- [12:18]
Dr. Erin Mills
Yeah, it certainly was. I mean, everybody knows that the parent is expert in their child, but this proves that. And I think it proves that we need to build the concerns of parents into our systems used for routinely monitoring for children that are deteriorating in hospital.
- [12:33]
Fergal Keene
And do you think that.
- [12:34]
Oliver Conway
I mean, should this be formalised in.
- [12:36]
Fergal Keene
Terms of rights of parents to sort.
- [12:38]
Oliver Conway
Of opine on the treatment of their child?
- [12:40]
Fergal Keene
I can see doctors perhaps getting frustrated.
- [12:43]
Oliver Conway
That they are feeling that their expertise.
- [12:45]
Fergal Keene
Is being drowned out by worried parents.
- [12:48]
Dr. Erin Mills
Yeah, it's kind of two parts to that, isn't there, that most health services have a system for patients and their families to be able to come forward and voice their concerns and get a response from that? But what we found was that the most vulnerable patients in our health system, particularly those who don't know the system within the country that they are or don't speak the language local to the country, they find it very hard to articulate their concerns and get the response that they need. So what we decided to do is flip that responsibility onto clinicians to proactively assess for worry in parents and other carers and build that into our system for monitoring. So it's done for every patient, every time. And the patients tell us that makes them feel a lot more comfortable about voicing their concerns.
- [13:33]
Oliver Conway
Dr. Erin Mills of Monash University in Melbourne. Now, what do you think this is? Well, incredibly, that is the sound of plastic waste crunching inside the stomach of a small bird. The sable shearwater from Lord Howe Island, 600 kilometres off the coast of Australia. Australia. Scientists from a group known as the Adrift Lab have been studying the birds for nearly 20 years. Dr. Alex Bond from the Natural History Museum in London is one of the researchers.
- [14:07]
Dr. Alex Bond
It's absolutely gut wrenching. We've just come back from our last season on Lord Howe Island. We had more birds like that than we've seen ever before. It was really heartbreaking. But we're finding whole bottle lids, lids from tetra packs. We had plastic cutlery for the first time this year, clothes pegs. And if you get takeaway sushi, you get your soy sauce in little fish shaped plastic container. We found one of those hole with lid on inside one of the birds. This year we've seen things like changes in blood chemistry. So if you're not feeling well, you go to the doctor and they take some bloods from you and send it off to a lab. We can do the same with birds. Plastics obviously causes some impact on what's circulating in the blood we see in the brains. They start to show the same symptoms that humans and mice show when they have Parkinson's and dementia. These are chicks, they're 80 days old and this is the plastic that the parents have brought back to them. And they're still showing these effects. We don't know really why seabirds go out and pick up plastic from the ocean. If you keep chickens at home, you might know that they are really quick at figuring out what's food and what's not. And yet these birds that live 30, 40 years still struggle with this. And one theory is that it smells like food. So plastics in the ocean pick up a lovely biofouling little surface layer of algae on them and that can sometimes give off the same chemicals that their food does. In the last four or five years, it's just gone off a bit of a cliff edge where the number of birds that have plastic in them has increased, but so has the amount of plastic. So this year, I can't remember how many birds we had that had 10, 20, 40 grams of plastic in them. And this represents 20% of their body mass. That's how much plastic they're carrying around in their stomachs.
- [15:46]
Kylie Pentelo
Why should people care about this, Alex? Why should we be bothered that birds.
- [15:50]
Fergal Keene
Are ingesting plastic in this way?
- [15:51]
Dr. Alex Bond
I mean, seabirds are sort of the canary in the coal mine for the health of the oceans. And the oceans look after so much of what goes on on the planet in terms of climate, carbon cycling. When you' canaries start to drop dead, that's usually the sign you should get out of the mine. They're the sort of the early warning for what's going on in the world's oceans, which ultimately we are all reliant on for existence, really.
- [16:13]
Kylie Pentelo
So what's the future looking like then for these birds?
- [16:15]
Dr. Alex Bond
Unfortunately, it's not looking great at the moment. Plastics are increasing, production is increasing, and even if we pulled every policy lever at our disposal today, plastics would still increase in the ocean for the next 30 years. But what's required is that sort of a really high level cross government approach to this. And we're trying to do this with a global plastics treaty to regulate plastics and deal with the problem that we've created in the world's oceans, which has only been around for the last 70 years, one or two generations.
- [16:45]
Oliver Conway
Alex Bond talking to Kylie Pentelo. And still to come on the Global news podcast.
- [16:52]
Becky Rutherford
Ladies and gentlemen, please remain seated with.
- [16:55]
Unnamed Announcer
Your seatbelt fastened until the fastened seat.
- [16:57]
Fergal Keene
Belt signs have been switched off.
- [16:59]
Oliver Conway
The Turkish airline threatening to fine impatient passengers. Harvard has won a temporary reprieve in its ongoing row with Donald Trump. On Thursday, a court blocked the president's order banning the university from enrolling international students. Mr. Trump says he's trying to protect Jewish students, some of who say they've been harassed and assaulted by pro Palestinian classmates. But some Jewish students from overseas fear they'll be caught up in Mr. Trump's ban. As Nomia Iqbal reports.
- [17:38]
Kylie Pentelo
With its pomp, parties and pageantry, graduation day is distinctively Harvard. But the university's Identity is at risk.
- [17:46]
Dr. Alex Bond
2025.
- [17:47]
Fergal Keene
From down the street, across the country.
- [17:51]
Dr. Alex Bond
And around the world.
- [17:57]
Kylie Pentelo
Harvard President Alan Garber didn't name the other president who he's in a legal battle with as he addressed students.
- [18:04]
Fergal Keene
The world just as it should be.
- [18:08]
Kylie Pentelo
President Trump claims the university is anti Semitic and anti Israel after pro Palestinian protests spread across US Campuses like here last year. President Garber, who is Jewish, admits there are problems, but says major steps are being taken to rectify them. For Israeli student Nitzan, the mood on campus has got better for the first.
- [18:30]
Fergal Keene
Time in a long time. I feel very proud to be a Harvard student. I haven't always felt that over the past two years. I think Harvard has been under immense pressure over the last two weeks from the Trump administration and the institution has.
- [18:41]
Oliver Conway
Shown that it is making decisions with.
- [18:43]
Fergal Keene
Integrity, you know, to defend its academic freedom.
- [18:46]
Kylie Pentelo
More than 2,000 Harvard students identify as Jewish. And for some of those from abroad, if Mr. Trump's actions are about keeping them safe, they're not all convinced.
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Fergal Keene
Certainly wasn't expecting to walk into something.
- [19:01]
Dr. Erin Mills
Of a conflict zone.
- [19:02]
Fergal Keene
When I was doing my PhD, I.
- [19:03]
Vitaly Shevchenko
Thought I was leaving.
- [19:05]
Kylie Pentelo
One PhD student, Genia, is halfway through her course. She isn't sure what happens next. The foreign student ban is on hold for now. President Trump says he's doing this to protect Jewish students. You are Jewish. You've been caught up in this. Do you think he's gone too far?
- [19:21]
Fergal Keene
There is a distinction between what we.
- [19:24]
Dr. Erin Mills
Want and what the US Government probably wants.
- [19:31]
Vitaly Shevchenko
I think everybody politicizes everything.
- [19:34]
Dr. Erin Mills
I'm very cynical about people.
- [19:37]
Fergal Keene
I have not experienced any anti Semitism, personally, individually, on myself.
- [19:41]
Kylie Pentelo
Others feel similar. One Israeli research fellow who didn't want to be named thinks it's unfair to make Harvard solve the world's problems.
- [19:51]
Dr. Erin Mills
It should be a place of rigorous debate.
- [19:53]
Fergal Keene
And I've had a lot of events, some of them I co organized and interactions here which have been difficult with people who I disagree with on certain areas. But I also feel like for myself and for people that I've interacted with, not all the time, but there have been times when there has been learning.
- [20:15]
Kylie Pentelo
Harvard professor Stephen Levitsky goes further. Though he has spent decades studying authoritarian governments and believes President Trump is trying to bring elite education in America under his control.
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Fergal Keene
If the Trump administration is able to bully Harvard into acquiescence, then it knows.
- [20:35]
Rushdie Abu Alouf
That no other university will be able.
- [20:38]
Fergal Keene
To stand up to it. The notion that we have a serious.
- [20:41]
Rushdie Abu Alouf
Anti Semitism problem that requires federal intervention.
- [20:45]
Fergal Keene
As a Jew who's lived here for.
- [20:47]
Rushdie Abu Alouf
25 years, I can tell you is laughable.
- [20:50]
Kylie Pentelo
This ongoing battle threatens to leave Harvard in a different place. Even if the city school is successful in its fight, funding is unlikely to return to its full level. And for many students from around the world, prestige has turned to panic. Many are thinking twice about staying to build the future they had once dreamt of in America.
- [21:10]
Oliver Conway
Nomir Iqbal reporting. Millions of girls in South Asia have their childhood cut short as they're forced into marriage, some as young as 12. Now. The Pakistani President Hasif Ali Zadari has approved new legislation which aims to eradicate child marriages in the capital, Islamabad and the surrounding area. And Mehrasan Etirajan is our South Asia regional editor.
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Mehrasan Etirajan
There are lots of issues here, cultural, religious and social. Because in South Asia, many parents would feel that Having a girl child, it also increases their responsibility. The first instinct for any family would be to get them married off at the earliest. So that is the social pressure. And also there are religious things where religious scholars would say, you know, people should be married soon after puberty. So these are some of the issues facing young women or girls in South Asia and in particular in Pakistan, which is about 19 million child brides according to the UNICEF, sixth highest in the world. So that's why the government is trying to stamp out this practice. It is only a small step because it is only for Islamabad and the surrounding area. But it is seen as a long way towards a major goal in eradicating this child marriage practice. And that is why activists have welcomed this new law, even though the Sindh province passed this law 10 years earlier. So this will be, you know, encouraging other assemblies like Khyber Pakhtunkua and other provinces to follow suit.
- [22:42]
Oliver Conway
So this law is in the region around Islamabad. How will it work now?
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Mehrasan Etirajan
This law replaced the 1929 Child Marriage Restraint Act. This was during the colonial era, so you can as well imagine how old this previous law was. Now this means those family members as well as the clerics or registrars who enable these weddings, those who are married under the age of 18 for girls, or at the moment both for male and female, it is 18. Anyone enables this marriage or force people to get married, they will face seven years imprisonment and there is also a fine. So this is basically sending out a clear cut message to the society, trying to encourage the idea that even for their own sake, because what the experts are talking about, if you marry a girl before the age of 18, it deprives them of education, it deprives them of social ability to interact with the people and health complications if they, you know, when they get pregnant, when you are too young, it has got complications and their childhood is cut short. That's the main reason why people say that, you know, at least they should start with the age of 18. But there are opposition to this. Religious scholars have been saying this is un Islamic and this is also against the social values of the Pakistani society. But now the President has signed the bill, it will become a law.
- [24:06]
Oliver Conway
And Rasa and ET Rajan now is France falling out of love with smoking. Cigarettes can be a bit of a cliche in French culture, particularly cinema. But now the French government is banning smoking in public spaces where children could be present, as Isabella Jewell explains.
- [24:23]
Unnamed Announcer
So this new law will ban smoking in areas accessed by children. So that means from the 1st of July, people in France will no longer be allowed to smoke in public places. So that means beaches, public parks and gardens, areas around schools, bus shelters and sports. So how will this all be enforced? According to the initial announcement, the French police will have the power to issue a fine of €135. So that's around $150 to anyone smoking in places designated as smoke free zones. The restrictions won't apply, however, to those iconic outdoor bar and cafe areas known as Terrasse in French. Anyone who's visited France will have noticed that smoking in these spots, often along with a coffee or a drink, is incredibly common. So that's one area that won't be affected by this new legislation. France has a comparatively high rate of smoking compared to lots of other countries, with data from the French Monitoring center for Drugs and Drug addiction showing that 23% of the population smokes on a daily basis. So there will be a lot of people who won't be pleased with this decision. Smoking is also very closely associated with French culture. Think of iconic singers of the past, like Serge Gainsbourg and Brigitte Bardot. And more recently, the French League against cancer found that nine in 10 French films from 2015 to 2019 featured characters smoking. But there's also a big public health push against smoking in France. More than 75,000 smokers die each year of tobacco related illnesses, which costs French society billions of euros. And some municipalities have already issued their own local bans. This law would extend that to the rest of the country.
- [26:05]
Oliver Conway
Isabella Jewell Finally, a familiar message for many airline passengers.
- [26:11]
Becky Rutherford
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to London Heathrow's Terminal 5. Please remain seated with your seat belt.
- [26:18]
Fergal Keene
Fastened until the fastened seat belt signs have been switched off.
- [26:23]
Oliver Conway
But as you may know, not everyone obeys the instructions. And now those who leap up to get their bag down and push down the aisle could be in for a rude awakening. Regulators in Turkey say passengers will be fined if they stand up before the seatbelt sign is switched off after landing. Becky Rutherford worked for a decade as a senior crew member with British Airways and now trains staff. She told Shaun Ley there were important reasons why passengers needed to stay put.
- [26:50]
Becky Rutherford
The difficult thing is trying to get passengers to understand that the seat belt signs are on for a reason, which is always quite difficult because passengers don't tend to understand the nuances of the critical times of an aircraft. And at that point the aircraft is maybe 2 to 3 yards from its final parking stand and all it takes is for it to need to break quickly and you've probably got the weight of up to what, 200 tons of an aircraft that could come to a stop very, very quickly, which is why the seatbelt signs remain on. Also, from the cabin crew's perspective, at that point, they still have one vital thing to do, which is to disarm their doors, because those doors won't be disarmed until the aircraft comes to a stop. The pilot will make a call for the doors to be disarmed and then the park brake will be appl. So if they are at the same time being bombarded by passengers trying to get bags off, trying to get to the door, then that can take away from that ability to have the safety focus, period, on disarming their doors. When people do it, when you call out and say, please sit down, the seatbelt signs are still on, what sort of reactions do you get? It varies route to route. It varies on what the passengers are expecting at the time. Have they been delayed? Are they desperate to get off the aircraft? Have you built a really good rapport with your customers during the flight? Because that will make a difference as well. If you look at the IATA figures, there has definitely been an increase in disruptive passengers. That has increased steadily since COVID but that has always been there. Passengers are in a foreign environment where it's easy to become frazzled. It's not unusual for anyone who works in the general public, be it pubs, bars, restaurants, retail, to deal with the general public when they become agitated. Agitated is one way of putting it. I mean, presumably the sum of it is people actually underestimate things like, you know, the effects of alcohol. If they've been drinking on a flight thousands of feet up in the air, they perhaps are more tired than they thought they were going to be, maybe even slightly disorientated at times. Those are all contributing factors, as are mixing alcohol with prescription drugs, which they may not have known the effect of. One of the big, big influencing factors can be tiredness. Alcohol is one of the biggest factors. But there's also mental health issues. I wonder, though, from your own experience.
- [29:02]
Oliver Conway
Would you have welcomed fines?
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Becky Rutherford
Is it something that would be helpful or could it be counterproductive? I personally think it's counterproductive. I think there are better ways of getting our customers to understand why those standard operating procedures are in place. I think having these kind of conversations will go a long way to help for people to understand why we ask them to do certain things. I don't think necessary finding is the right way about it.
- [29:28]
Oliver Conway
Aircrew trainer Becky Rutherford. And that is all from us for now. But the Global News podcast will be back. Back very soon. If you want to comment on this podcast or the topics in it, send an email to globalpodcastbc.co.uk this edition was mixed by Jack Wilfan and produced by Alfie Habershan. Our editors, Karen Martin. I'm Oliver Conway. Until next time, goodbye.