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- [00:18]
A
Hello and welcome to Global Sanctuary for Elephants podcast. Global Rumblings Global Sanctuary for Elephants, or GSE for short, is a non profit organization with a mission to create vast, safe spaces for captive elephants where they are able to heal fish physically and emotionally, often from very traumatic pasts. I'm your host, Nadia Mazzarati and I'll be taking you to the lush jungle of the Mato Grosso region in central Brazil, home of GEC's initial project, Elephant Sanctuary Brazil, where four Mizu and circus elephants from across South America live their best lives. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Global Rumblings podcast and thank you for tuning in again this week. Today's podcast topic really shines a light on the impact that captivity has on elephant elephants. After everything we've talked about in the past weeks, how elephants live in complex social structures, the emotional and physical bonds they form, and how deeply interconnected they are with one another, why do some captive elephants choose to remain alone? So let's say hello to Kat and Scott and discuss this topic. Hi, you two.
- [01:26]
B
Hi, Nadia.
- [01:27]
C
Hey, Nadia, how are you doing?
- [01:29]
A
I'm good as always and looking forward to talking elephants with you too. But before we do kick off this podcast, we have an exciting, exciting announcement to make. You have an event coming up. Your Trunks and Treasures online auction is back again from the 12th to the 20th of June. So can you tell us a little bit more about that?
- [01:48]
B
Sure, I think so. This is our second Trunks and Treasures. It's an online auction everybody can participate in. You can go and check out the different items that are available. There is everything from cute jewelry to elephant figurines to a visit to the sanctuary, which we try to do annually. This way a supporter can come and see what it's all about in person. We can share the link in the show notes and people can come check it out. This year it is going to help fund development of a medical building. You know, we've just been growing since we started. Everything started tiny and essentially functioned how it had to because of where we were at. And over time we've been able to expand certain aspects. Elephants always come first, so it's always been habitat. But now we have a very small room that is our medical room that is jam packed with everything you could possibly think of and it doesn't really serve. So we are planning on building a medical building using storage containers as we have for the other buildings. And this way we can have an exam room in it. We can have a room that has all the storage for all of the medications we Keep in stock. Since we're an hour and a half away from essentially a pharmacy, there's a lot of drugs that we keep in stock just for emergencies. And we have our blood machine and our X ray machine and all of those things. And then we haven't been able to get some equipment like a microscope and a centrifuge just because we don't even have room for them. So this will allow us to get some more equipment and be able to store it safely, keep all the meds and then have a separate room for treatment and exams and some cages for any wildlife that may come in that are in serious enough condition that they can't be just put outside or kept somewhere else and need more of more intense care. So.
- [04:01]
C
And we need the space for other offices right now, if you want to call it the living room. Dining room of the main house that was always there from the beginning and now has I think three different desks working in it, plus the main table, plus sitting area for the caregivers and visitors. So it's all getting a little bit too crowded.
- [04:20]
B
One of our, I don't know what her position is. I don't think she has an official title. It's been shifting over time. Mirella essentially works at a picnic table on the porch that is her office. So things could definitely use a little bit of tweaking with the growth that's gone on. So that is where the funds will go to. And then the second part of the funds just goes to any of the goal goes to medicine for the elephants, including anything we raise over. We'll go towards their supplements and different medications. Unfortunately, a lot of the girls are on anti inflammatory and pain meds from the condition they arrived in and the damage that captivity causes their bodies over decades. So the rest of the funds will go towards that.
- [05:14]
A
Great. Okay, so that's the 12th to the 20th of June and the URL is globalelephants.org trunksandtreasures but we'll put that into the show notes and I'll also ask Bob, our video editor to put that into the video edition. Everybody grab your pen or quickly tap it into your mobile, into your calendar. The 12th to the 20th of June. And okay, so in the introductory I said that the topic we will be discussing today does shine a light on the impact that captivity does cause. So after everything that we've learned about elephants, we've talked about, why do some elephants choose solitude? And the first elephant that comes to mind probably for most listeners will be Lady. And I remember you, in one of our podcasts, Scott, you said, just because she didn't want to physically bond with the other elephants, it doesn't mean that she was looking for some kind of other connection with them. But maybe we can combine those two, those two aspects.
- [06:14]
C
Sure. I think let's start by making this the shortest podcast ever and just say, why does one person want to read a book and the other person wants to go to the bar? Individuality. And that's the same answer for elephants. It's simple answer in a complex scenario, because as we know with humans, there's so many different elements of it. One, genetic predisposition, Two, how you're raised, where you're raised. You know, there's, you know, what are those cultural influences? What is the. What is the society that you live within? You know, where do you live? I mean, there's so many different elements that have an influence, but a lot of it boils back, goes back down to what is the nature of that individual. And we look at elephants as highly social individuals, while we look at humans as highly social individuals, individuals also. But within our society, we accept when somebody's an introvert. You know, in an elephant society, somebody chooses an elephant, decides to make a choice that is different than what we have, the expectation, and all of a sudden, it becomes almost not acceptable. What's wrong with her?
- [07:13]
B
I think part of it is, yes, elephants are social by nature, but, you know, they grow up in a society that encourages that bond, that nurtures that bond, that is that family. You know, you throw them into captivity and it's anything but. You know, elephants are torn away from their families. A lot of them are kept by themselves. When they are with other elephants, there's a lot of confrontation involved in most scenarios because the spaces are too small that they can't get away, and they're forced to spend all this time with each other. So you're talking about a natural tendency to want to be a member of a herd and for that to be a normal way of existing. And all of that gets thrown out the window in captivity.
- [07:57]
C
It's a huge negative influence on that development, you know, But I think that, you know, with somebody like lady, there's a lot of factors, but maybe we don't. We don't know ultimately how much of it was cultural and how much of it was. How much of cultural, how much trauma, how much. All those different elements and how much is just.
- [08:14]
B
Lady, we had always assumed that there was an aspect of it that had to do with her feet. She had an overriding insecurity because of the condition of her feet. Although that girl went everywhere, and I mean everywhere, she still has explored probably more than everybody but Maya, you know, and she. We had a caregiver, a trainer who came and was so surprised at how quickly she made it to the back of the habitat. I mean, so not only was she going places, but her feet didn't slow her down when it came to that, and she embraced all of that. But she always seemed to have this insecurity about the state of her feet and the limitations that mentally she seemed to feel they put on her. And we always assumed with her that was part of the roadblock of her cautious interactions when there wasn't a barrier between her and other elephants because of, you know, can I run away if I need to? And all of those other thoughts that. And of course, all of this is just us and what we think she could possibly have been thinking about and going through. And, you know, we don't know, but it's just from what we knew of her and what we saw from her and what we saw in those interactions that her feet seemed to play a role in her insecurities with others.
- [09:47]
C
Yeah. And you, Najee, mentioned a minute ago about, you know, we didn't really know her before, but even if we knew an elephant for 20 years doesn't mean we truly know what is going on in her brain, such as, you know, wanting to go read a book versus wanting to go to the bar. You know, she may have been. If she had more social interaction, maybe she would have been much more social if she didn't have the foot issues. You know, maybe she would have more social interactions. You know, she showed an interest, but she also showed an interest in being alone. You know, so where do those lines intersect? We don't know. And we may, you know, even if we had been with her for 30 years, maybe we would still not truly know that she really likes novels versus pina coladas.
- [10:32]
A
I think what I find difficult to understand, but I think I'm just thinking very naively, is that we know that elephants are highly social. They live in these huge families. They're emotionally bonded. And as Kat said in one of the recent podcasts, she said that, you know, you said that being an elephant and having this connection and wanting this bond is just part of them. It's part of their soul. So that many listeners and supporters like myself, we sort of think, well, okay, she comes to the sanctuary now, finally she's got the chance, you know, to have this Connection, even though it isn't what nature wanted or the way nature had, you know, intended it to be. But she would have the possibility to make a friend or two and she doesn't. And then I sort of think, yes, but what you just said, Scott, you know, it's the same with people. Just because you've been alone for 30 years, if you then suddenly meet a human, it doesn't mean you'll mean your best friend. I think that's what I still find sort of difficult to sort of to understand because I think, oh, isn't that what you want? But then as you said once before as well, the sanctuary gives them the choice and gives them the autonomy to do exactly that. So maybe then linking it to what I also said in the introductory. Or was she still then bonded in some form with the elephants? How did this bond take shape? Because she heard the other girls calling.
- [11:54]
C
Yeah, I think, you know, let's go back for one second before we go into the. The. How did the bond take shape? Because she still wanted interaction, just not the interaction that we are accustomed to them wanting. When we speak about elephants in this, in this social aspect, you know, we're speaking on a very generic term. Well, this is who elephants are. Yes, but you can read the stories of elephants in, specifically in Africa where we know more about the complex social dynamic or family dynamics. Not every individ is going to have that same nature. Not every female elephant that is a daughter to elephant named Polly is going to be the auntie on the next, you know, next birth. Maybe she doesn't want to have anything to do with babies. You know, we know that this is their nature. The nature is that they have aunties, they have groups of females that help raise the young. But does that mean every female is going to do that? Not necessarily. These statements that we made about them are very generic. Just as we make statements in humans that are very generic. That doesn't mean there's not going to be individual tendencies. Again, where does that line, where does lines intersect? Yes, undoubtedly, ladies trauma had a lot to do with that lack of social desire. But I think there's also a way to look at. And there's maybe there's more. And you know, going back to, maybe there's something that's much more profound, you know, much more again, genetically disposed that is different than what we're, you know, maybe it's not just trauma based. So with that going back to how did lady interact? There's a lot of vocalizations that happen. There's a Lot of vocalization that happened with lady between the others when they couldn't even see each other. They all do that together, whether they can see each other or not. Whether it be lady, you know, isolating herself or two elephants in just two separate locations. They have a lot of vocalization between them. And lady would also, they would definitely have a lot of, you know, rumble parties. And lady would sometimes do her own little party celebration, trumpeting up the storm, and the others would join from, you know, halfway across the field. Was that interconnected? Was that you know, intentionally interconnected or just joining the party that lady had started? And then there's the other element that we don't know where the elephants is and we can't monitor with where we are. How much is. How much is happening with vocalizations that we can't hear. How much of that infrasonic communication is happening on a constant basis. You know, see behavior that is linked, you see that, you know, a lady will stop and look in the other direction of the others or the others would stop and look in ladies direction. We can't perceive a vocalization. But that doesn't mean they weren't talking nonstop.
- [14:33]
B
And besides that, I mean, she did interact a fair bit with Hana. You know, as with most elephants that show up, some when they come, somebody shows up, they're interested in them. We always do, you know, barrier between. Initially it was no different with lady and Hana and then open up between them. They shared space. And not only did they share space, we've talked about it before. Lady had her 10 meter bubble invisible boundary that not only did she have, but that Hana seemed to understand where the barriers were and be very respectful of the barriers. But there were a lot of times where Hana wouldn't approach lady at all, that Hana would just stay by the tree. And lady was the one who was a satellite that would go closer and rotate around where she was. And there were times where when we would open the gate between them. Lady was the one who would go into the yard with Hana. Did she go up to her ever? Like go up to her and touch her? No. But does that negate the fact that she seemed to enjoy having another elephant be in her company? You know, she didn't seem to want to be right next to somebody and have that physical contact. But again, she was the one choosing to enter a yard with another elephant with the gate open and us not asking, we're not throwing food out to lead her through the gate. This is, you know, having one elephant in yard one and one elephant in yard two and just opening up the gate between them, and she walks to the gate, walks through the gate and goes into the yard with Hannah. You know, this is a choice on her part to share that space with her. She could have left. She could have gone into yard five. You know, again, none of this scenario is forced, but she seemed to like to have that time with her, just not directly on top of her. And we saw this over and over again. Even in the mail yard. They would spend time together, and lady would be the one to kind of seek out and see where Hannah was, and again, still keep that same distance. And, you know, Hannah was amazing with maintaining that boundary, Although hana is hana. And she seemed very interested in being a best friend, if that was what her role was going to be. She also seemed to understand that that wasn't what lady wanted nor needed, and she kept her distance.
- [17:04]
C
And I think that ties right back into the whole genetic or what is that individual trait is, you know, some people just don't want to talk on the phone, and they want to talk in person, and somebody else may only want to talk on the phone, you know. You know, how that communication, how that socialization happens isn't the same in our world, and it shouldn't have to be the same in their world, Although we tend to try to lump them all in together. But absolutely, you know, lady had all kinds of different types of social interactions. Some were directly observed, and many were, you know, just perceived based on behavioral.
- [17:40]
B
I mean, she was the first one who came to the barn. When pocha and gizmina arrived, she came into yard one. They were in the barn and had access to yard two, and they were just stepping out into yard two, and she went all the way right by the fence. And it happened to be one of the first couple of days that pocha and gijamina were out of the barn, and they weren't even looking. You know, it was at that point where they were still looking down at everything, and they weren't looking up, and they didn't even notice she was there. She hung out for a little while. She went up by the fence, she put her trunk up and smelled, and eventually just walked away because there was nothing there. You know, pochin kishmina didn't acknowledge her
- [18:17]
C
existence, and maybe that gave her that comfort to do that also, because she knows that they weren't fully connected. They weren't wanting anything from her. So maybe that opened that door for her to step closer. You know, so there's so many different elements, but you know, clearly a lot of people looked at lady as an antisocial individual. You know, that doesn't actually mean it's true. Maybe she was more isolated in her physical space, but I think she still had showed a lot of social interaction.
- [18:40]
B
But we also don't know what would have happened down the line. And not that she would have changed, but necessarily that another elephant would have come along who she did vibe with and want that closer relationship. I know there's another facility that had an elephant that essentially kept to herself for nine years until another elephant that she finally really resonated with came along. And then they end up being side by side. I mean, sometimes there is just that need for a very specific something that you connect with in somebody else. And we did see her be fairly open with Ramba. She seemed more comfortable with her than she had seemed with everybody else. When we had Ramba install two, lady came into stall one and they hung out in the barn. It was closed between the two of them. But that's like. For lady, it seemed like a very vulnerable space to be in the stall next to another elephant because it is smaller. And she did great. She's the one who. The one time that Rambo was getting treatment in the chute install one, lady came up to her. You know, she had access to 1 and 2, and she came into yard 1 and she walked up to the chute where Rambo was getting her treatment. She probably stayed about maybe 6 to 10ft away. But, you know, we all kind of stepped away and stopped Rambo's treatment so that they could kind of explore their own thing. But there did seem to be a different vibe between the two of them. And you do see that with, you know, it's just like people. You can say the things you love about somebody you're with and why you're with them, but explaining that initial attraction or whatever it was you have with somebody is something that's really hard to pinpoint and put into words. You know, it's. It's just a thing. And I think there is a little bit of that same thing with elephants where sometimes there's just another elephant for some reason that they really can ease into and be open with. So, you know, we have no idea what would have happened with the relationship between her and Rambo. We have no idea what would have happened if somebody else came along years later. You know, maybe she would have been that elephant that had a relationship. That makes people be like, okay, that's better. So there's so much to it.
- [21:05]
A
But is it still something that is still sort of unique to captivity? In Germany, there's a saying, jeder topfahrzein deckel, which means every potter's its lid. So obviously, lady was possibly looking for that elephant, you know, with that certain vibe that she could connect to 100%. And then, you know, all listeners, including myself, would then have the happy end that we want, as I, as I admit. But is that something that is still very unique or caused by. By captivity, by breaking these bonds? I understand what you say, Scott, about elephants that are observed in Africa, that, you know, just because you're a female elephant and you're on this big herd, that you're going to be a fantastic nanny or a fantastic auntie doesn't necessarily mean that that is your, you know, gen role, as you say. But is this sort of choice of staying solitary? Female elephants, of course, and males different, still something that is, I'll say, more unique in captive surroundings?
- [22:01]
B
I think it's definitely more prevalent in captivity. I think it's definitely more exaggerated in captivity. I think because of past incidences and impact, there's a significant level of fear that elephants have with their interactions with other elephants. You know, we talked about last time. There is that lack of knowing how to socialize for elephants that have been, you know, alone for 40 years. Although there is something, you know, innate in that. So I definitely think it shifts what might be, you know, a social tendency that an elephant could naturally have and morphs it into something much more exaggerated and usually unfortunate.
- [22:51]
C
Yeah, I completely agree with Kat on that, that, you know, it is absolutely more prevalent, it's more exaggerated, it's more obvious. But I think, you know, the other, going back to the, the, the wild versus captive scenario, if you hear about this anomaly elephant in the wild, people say, oh, that's so interesting. But then you have the same anomaly elephant that comes to the sanctuary. Oh, how sad. Well, yeah, I mean, I agree with Kat saying I think it's more prevalent. I do believe that Lady's trauma had an impact, and I do believe, and I agree fully, that her feet had an impact of it. But I just don't think that we accept it the same way that we would accept an anomaly if it was in a wild setting. And I think that's part of what you have to use caution with is one, what is our expectation? And, you know, as you said a minute ago, the happy ending lady was pretty happy. You know, was it defined as we wanted it to be or what we would love to have her have that best friend, sure, you know, that would have been brilliant, but maybe that's not what she fully wanted either. Or maybe that's not what she wanted now, you know. Or is there an element that is similar to pocha? We seem to be all be okay. That pocha took a back seat for Giza, knowing her time was limited. Was there also an element of that for Lady? Did she know? You know, those are the things that we can't answer and we won't ever know. But I just want to use caution. That's like, you know, again, like the statement of. And I know it's stated very generically not yet, but, you know, the, the happy ending, you know, she had a pretty amazing life. You know, she did a lot. That social definition wasn't what we wanted it to be, but she had a pretty good life, you know, and just remembering to accept not only their autonomy, their decision, but, you know, their pathway, whatever that may be, whether it be genetic or whether it be captive induced, whether it be trauma, whether it be fear, whether it be physical limitation.
- [24:41]
B
And I think it's easy. We've seen in other facilities them trying to force relationships between elephants that don't want it. It doesn't work. It's not fair. Oftentimes it goes very poorly. But, you know, sanctuary is supposed to offer actual autonomy, and that means their choices don't always align with one what we think is best for them because we just don't know or what we want for them. And I think for me, the biggest reason I would have liked lady to have a deeper relationship with somebody else was just for the comfort that I think elephants can offer each other that we can't remotely give them, and mostly because of her physical pain. But it was also really nice knowing that because so much of her life had been impacted by captivity in a negative way, in a way that she could not control any of it. And her feet got to such point that they weren't fixable and, you know, nothing was in anybody's control. That she did have the ability to make those choices in those instances. And she did have something that, that she could control. Not just where she went, but if she wanted to do that on her own.
- [25:56]
C
Everybody that worked with her was so hyper respectful of one who she is, those choices she made, but also in awe of what she did with those choices, you know, and that space that she did explore and, you know, the joy that she did exhibit and the exploration that she did that is beyond all expectation.
- [26:20]
A
So Elephants, as we close the podcast, have taught me a lesson again. Well, I've been thinking about it a lot while preparing for this podcast. Is that, yes, the happy end that we want for them. Of course, you know, I didn't imply. But I know you know that. But in case somebody listeners think, obviously I didn't imply that just because she didn't have a friend, a partner, she didn't have a happy life and there wasn't a happy end. But yes, it's as you said, it's the autonomy and the choice that sanctuary and the space gives elephant. And it's for us then to, yeah, not put our wishes onto them, but to accept them for their choices, the lives that they live, even if it is, yes, not what we think they should be doing. So, yes, a lot to ponder about.
- [27:01]
C
Again, they do that with us and the more they share, the more we ponder, the more convoluted it becomes and the more complex the questions or answers evolve into. And absolutely. Nadja, I know you were not suggesting that she did not have a happy ending. It's just something we've heard before, not only with lady, but with others, you know, but it's just so much that we put on that, that expectation. We want so much more for them after they all that they haven't had for all those years.
- [27:28]
B
And I think people just sometimes don't realize the impact that it does have and what a gift it is to them for them to be able to have that choice, not just superficial choice, but actual real emotional choices in their life and to get that control back, you know, 40 years, 50 years without it. So that's the biggest thing we can give them. So if that means that she doesn't really want to spend all her days next to somebody, that's what she deserves, a choice, huh?
- [28:01]
C
Absolutely.
- [28:02]
B
Yeah.
- [28:03]
A
Okay, then I'll let you go. And I'll say again, save the date the 12th to the 20th of June, trunks and treasures. All the links are in the show notes or as I speak now, hopefully when Bob does the video edition, there will be the URL and a QR code that you can maybe scan. So, yes, fantastic. A medical building. So you've got some more office space. And Paul Muriella can maybe actually sit at a desk and not outside.
- [28:34]
B
It's a nice outdoor office. No, I know, I've been there.
- [28:37]
C
It is lovely, but not a lot of privacy.
- [28:41]
A
Not a lot of privacy. Okay. All those details will be in the show notes. Thanks for your time and yes, we'll catch up for our next recording. Until then, take care.
- [28:51]
C
As always. Thank you very much, and it was wonderful to speak with you again, and we will talk soon.
- [28:56]
B
Bye, Nadja.
- [28:56]
A
Okay, bye. As we wrap up this week's episode, a reminder that you can stay up to date with current events at the Sanctuary by following GSE on their various social media channels. You'll find all the details in the show notes or directly on their website, globalelephants.org thank you so much for your support. And until we meet up for our next episode, take care.