Nadia Mari (4:38)

Well, that's a. A lot of points to discuss and to. To pick apart there. You are the expert, so I will try maybe you must be the voice of reason. And I did catch up on a few comments in the elephant world expressing their absolute disgust and disbelief that a zoo would decide to euthanize a healthy elephant just because they said, oh, she's going to be on her own, so that's not good. And the experts in inverted commas that they got their advice from. So what do you say to all of this? Let's pick it apart.

Kat (5:18)

I mean, the whole thing is disgusting in my opinion. But I think one of the most disheartening things that I have seen is that post has 751 comments and I can't read them all because they're not in English. But I scrolled through and of all of the comments I looked at, which had to have been over 400, I only saw one negative comment. And I do know that as Anybody else, you can just delete any negative comment. But that still is leaving, you know, 750 comments from people who were like, thank you for making the best decision for them. You know, it wasn't a good zoo, so it's better that, you know, this is the way it went and the whole range of support for essentially them killing a healthy elephant. So yeah, I found that a little atrocious on top of already what had been done.

Scott (6:16)

Being infuriated is a gross understatement. Being disheartened, dismayed, disbelief. But at the same time they're saying disbelief, you know what, it falls in line with this ethos of elephants in small captive spaces that just use us as objects. You know, we hear about, you know, animals passing away in zoo or being euthanized and, but not before they sired 33 calves, you know. You know, and this dismission of the other elephants that they're with many times and you know, I understand wanting to consider her well being, but we are completely underestimating on them on every level and you know, their ability to adapt and cope, the ability to adjust, ability to accept loss the way we have to accept loss, we go through that process, they can too. They're taking away a chance for her to have something more, maybe even something better. You know, let's look at Maya and Gita. I mean, Maya was distraught when Gita passed away, but we were just talking about the other day, she may be living her best life now, being a friend for Bambi that she wasn't able to be before and you know, in a way that she couldn't be before. And I never would have considered doing anything to Maya because Gita passed. But I look at what is, what would have been taken away from her life if that had happened. And I don't know, it just constantly we are underestimating him. The thought of trans. Another comment of, you know, on a more superficial level than we're going, she's going to be traumatized by the stress of her transport. You know what zoos, you guys are transporting elephants all over the place. If it's for breeding and making a baby, you don't give a shit. You just send them without any consideration what it does to their herd. Fragmentation. You take babies away without any consideration of the what, what it does to the mom. No one freaking cares about that, you know, and you do, because what, it makes more babies so you can have more exhibits and you can have another, you know, take advantage of this space and you know, educate about what? Educate how to dismiss the capacity of an elephant educates to dismiss the value of a living individual. Lately, completely dumbfounded with how this can be justified. And then using zoo guidelines. My God. Yeah, okay, let's use this policy. This policy? Yeah, that was taken for a literal translation of this policy. You only have one elephant. Kill it. No, that's not the policy, man. And if you're going to manipulate the policy that way, there's no telling how many other ways they're trying to manipulate the Sioux policy. You know, I, I don't know, I'm clearly not thrilled and just completely dismayed that this is not only justified, not to be done, it's being, they're being given accolades for making the best decision to kill a healthy individual. What's wrong with us do you think?

Nadia Mari (9:12)

Then it's people who don't understand. So they are thinking, okay, they spoke to experts. Will be interesting to know which experts. Or they spoke to the European association of, of Zoos and Aquariums and they said, yes, it's not good. Obviously it's not ideal to keep elephants solitary, but okay, she's not going to adapt so we'll just take a precaution and kill her now. I mean that would mean for elephants in Japan that you, Lara and I could stop our non profit because then, you know, let's just lab Japanese zoos, you know, euthanize 15 of their solitary elephants. I mean that is just absolutely ridiculous. And then saying that the E A Z A possibly recommended that, I find that so hard to believe. Or that they, as you said, possibly interpreted the zoo guidelines like that. It just seems. And then they also said something about her arthritic wrist. Well, I mean Hana's got a fused elbow. You know, other animals got disabilities but having arthritis and saying, oh, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll euthanize her because you know, in the, in the years to come that could cause a problem. Not giving her a chance is what I find absolutely shocking.

Kat (10:23)

They say in the post we have always been aware that when one of them was no longer here, we would have to say goodbye to the other. So I mean her health meant nothing. They had always clearly, they stated, had this plan that if one of them went, the other one was going as well. Which is crazy. Yeah, you know, you're talking about 42 year old elephants. You know, you're not even talking about 60 year old elephants. 58. Not that it is ever acceptable in my mind at any age, but this is a 42 year old elephant. You know, there Was that big zoo study done a few years ago where they found that over, I think it was over 78% of zoo elephants that they looked at all had some sort of arthritis, joint compromise, so on and so forth. So I mean, claiming that because she had a little bit of arthritis, it was a big issue, you can then euthanize 80% of the captive elephant population in the U.S. i mean, it's excuse after excuse, but they do in many ways.

Scott (11:23)

We know that. We know there's a reason for this phrase coined zoothanasia, because animals are zooed. When we feel we can't do anymore, when we feel that we have reached the end of what we can do, or that we don't like seeing them uncomfortable. It's not about what they're capable of.

Kat (11:42)

Every zoo.

Scott (11:42)

No, it's not. You know, clearly it's not. I mean, not every zoo.

Kat (11:45)

I know, I just don't want that to be like a blanket statement.

Scott (11:48)

No, these are very generalized statements when I say zoos. But you know, we're talking about this topic of this specific zoo, making this and making the general statements. But we, we see this in zoos in general, you know, and this is the majority of zoos where we continue to compromise or underestimate their capacity, their capacity to grow, their crafts evolve, their capacity to adapt all the way long. You know, I don't know if we've talked about it before, forgive me if there's a repeat, but there's a case in Brazil right now, solitary elephant, they want to send her to another zoo that has derelict space. Instead they're trying to send her to us or trying to get a lawsuit to have her sent to us. And the owner of the zoo said she can't go to the sanctuary because she might slip by walking on the grass.

Kat (12:34)

But it's not, she's not actually at a zoo, she's at an amusement park and she's an ex circus elephant. So the owner of the amusement park is the same person who owned her in the circus and the same person who taught her how to do hind leg stands and stand up on a ball. And apparently there was no concern for her well being or her falling during any of that, but there is concern that she's going to slip on the grass and fall.

Scott (12:59)

People say, well, they're just making arguments, any argument they can. But I think many times they believe those, their inability to adapt. Like the zoo saying she's gonna be too traumatized to send her somewhere else. No, give her a chance. It's hard it's hard to find any level of logic, logic or any clear path forward where you can try to make sense of any element of this and just none of it makes sense.

Kat (13:23)

But going back to people believing it as you had questioned, and of course we went off the rails because this is really emotional. I mean, I can't imagine being able to look at one of our elephants and just be like, sorry, we euthanized lady. As most people know, it's not that we're against euthanasia, it is a very, very difficult decision. But to do it when it's not needed is just a horrific thought. But it is that thing of zoos making themselves the experts and people believing it. You know, they are the self proclaimed experts of animals and animal care and they're the ones saying it. But it's like any, any statement that is repeated enough becomes truth. You know, it just takes on a life of its own. So when you hear that this wonderful governing body of all these lovely zoos that are all about conservation and so on and so forth, believe this was the best decision, most people are like, okay, must be the best decision when, you know, there's, as far as I'm concerned, nothing further from the truth. You know, it's a euthanasia of convenience and that's all it is. And that's how a lot of decisions are based in a lot of different facilities around the world.

Nadia Mari (14:45)

And it also seems very calculated because you read out that part of the posts where they said for them it was clear as soon as one went, the other one would have to go as well. Which is just so, so crazy. I was thinking, would it, is it possibly, was it possibly finances? I, you know, they had to euthanize Tanya because she was sick and so whoops, you know, we're going, might have an aged elephants, an aged elephant on our hands the next 20, 30 years. So we'll just go with reinterpreting the zoo guidelines and euthanasia as well. I don't know, I'm just trying to grasp some kind of logic, but I'm just not finding any.

Scott (15:28)

I don't know that there is. And that's the thing, I don't think we can find logic that way. I think it as it goes back to again dismissing their capacity, dismissing their value. You know, as Cat already said, euthanasia are convenience. I don't think it's financial convenience.

Kat (15:43)

No, I just think, I mean, if she was of breeding age and she had successfully bred, you bet they would have found somewhere to send her you know, they absolutely would not have euthanized her. You know, it's just her value to them didn't exist anymore, so there was no reason to keep her. There are other facilities that they could have approached to see about taking her, you know, and I'm sure that wasn't even a consideration. Like they said, they always thought that once one was gone, the other would have to go, which is nuts. See it again.

Scott (16:18)

It's crazy. You know, and from, from a PR perspective, sure, they would have actually, if she would have been alive, they would have been having calls right away, find a new home from her. She can't live alone. There would have been, you know, that whole element to deal with. And I think that the lack of backlash for this horrific decision is less than the backlash they would have had if she was alone. Which again is frightening. That this is the, this is the way, this is our response, this is the public response. But like Kat said, you know, it's the self proclaimed experts, people give them the benefit of the doubt for knowing best, but knowing best, knowing best how to sacrifice a healthy individual.

Kat (17:02)

And I mean in the US and again, definitely not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But when they changed the guidelines about needing to have three elephants and everywhere needing to have facility for a male, of course a bunch of places changed close their exhibits completely. But you also had facilities that then started to focus on older elephants. You know, you have zoos now in the US that have three or four total grandmas and that's all they're gonna do. And when they don't have their grandmas anymore, they're probably not gonna have elephants at all. I mean, there are ways to deal with it. You just don't have a rule, you know, that says nobody can be alone, but then don't have anything in the plans of what happens with your older elephants. You know what happens with your antisocial, whatever it is that you're gonna claim is wrong with your remaining elephant. You know, you have those plans beforehand of what's going to happen with them and where they're going to go. You don't just again euthanize an elephant for that.

Nadia Mari (18:04)

The elephants that come to you from zoos in South America, you are in discussion with the zoos. So the zoos then in South America, but also due to the special legislation that South America did pass about banning elephants in circuses, you're in contact with the zoo. So do you think that the zoo in Denmark or zoos in Europe haven't heard of, for instance The Elephant Haven in France, I mean, I know they've only got Asian elephants, they haven't got African ones. So disregarding the logic, what they said, as soon as one goes, the other one will have to go as well. I mean, I'm just sort of. Yeah. Reading the comments of people who were disgusted by the decision. So the Elephant Haven in France would have been a. Could have been an option or another zoo or do you really think that they are just so closed in their bubble or some zoos are so closed up in their bubble they just don't see left and right, other possibilities?

Scott (19:05)

I think after all this time, so many zoos still dismiss the value of sanctuary. Sure.

Kat (19:10)

But it's not that they didn't know. I mean, Elephant Haven has had to fight so much ridiculous legislation, rules and what have you from easa. And it's something that is discussed, I am sure there's probably not a single zoo that does not know they exist. Whether you know, that means anything to them is a different story. They have a whole database of all the zoos. They could have easily looked to see who has who at what ages, who has availability, so on and so forth. But I still go back to the line where they say we always knew, which is garbage.

Scott (19:47)

It was a plan all along, but they could have done it differently. Also, we always knew we had to say goodbye, you know, but goodbye is not let's kill her.

Kat (19:54)

Sure.

Scott (19:55)

Goodbye is let's send her to another place where she can continue to live potentially her best years.

Kat (20:01)

And unfortunately we have a direct comparison right now because the two elephants that were just euthanized, they're female African elephants from Kruger National park. They arrived at three years old in 1985, have been together since. Although when you read some of the comments, they talk about them being chained and being chained separately and having a wall between them. Of course, I have no idea how reliable these comments are. They're just from people who say they've been at the zoo. So I'm not sure what their social nature was. In the videos that I've seen from eight years ago, five years ago, the eight years ago, it's only one elephant. It's actually Tanya by herself. You don't see Mai and in the other one you can see both of them, but they're not, you know, it's not like elephants with a super close bond where they're side by side or touching or anything. And African elephants are different. But there's no. Not that it would have been an excuse if they were super Bonded, but there's nothing in there that shows they're super bonded. And we just had. Unfortunately, Kooky passed away at Buenos Aires Eco Park. And for them, you have Kooky and Poopy, who came from Kruger national park at the age of three years and have lived together ever since. And they're 34, so not a huge age difference. So not a big difference in the amount of time that they've been together. And from what I know, Kooky and Poupi were always together. I've seen photos and videos of them from babies when they first arrived, when they were still being kept with Mara. I've seen them in person a bunch of times. I mean, they're always within distance, seeing distance of each other and with full.

Scott (21:42)

Access to each other.

Kat (21:43)

And I cannot imagine anyone involved with what's going on considering even for a second to euthanize Pupi just because Kooky died.

Scott (21:55)

No, the conversation exactly opposite that.

Kat (21:57)

Absolutely.

Scott (21:58)

The conversation that they're having is, let's get her to the sanctuary as soon as possible to give her a chance to recover in a place that is much more healing for her.

Nadia Mari (22:07)

Yeah.

Kat (22:08)

So it's just. I mean, it makes it even that much more absurd that, I mean, you have essentially the same situation, if not a closer bond between Kooky and Poopy. And, I mean, I couldn't in a million years think that anyone involved with their care, the caregivers, the zoo team, I can't think that a single person would have had the thought enter their mind that, oh, we should just euthanize Poopy then.

Scott (22:34)

No, not at all. You know, I've never encountered any conversation in any captive environment that we've talked about, any captive group that we've talked to, anybody, captive animal managers that we talked about who have ever talked on those terms. Irrelevant.

Nadia Mari (22:48)

So this is new for you as well, with your over 55 years of combined experience. This.

Kat (22:53)

Yeah. For elephants. Yeah. I mean, there is definitely a lot of rogue euthanasia that happens in different animals that aren't focus animals, and sending extra hoofstock to places that do canned hunts and euthanizing. You know, they actually have a list of surplus animals at zoos. And so that type of euthanasia. Yes, we all know it exists, at least those of us that work in this industry. And none of that is surprising, although it's still gross, because it comes down to allowing animals to have babies because babies bring in money, and then you have too many because you let them have babies. And so then they become, quote, unquote, surplus. But this is the first time I've ever heard with elephants, and I don't even know how it's legitimate considering they're an endangered species. How you make the excuse that you just killed something on the endangered species list because that was your decision. So I don't even know how that works from a legal standpoint. To me, it seems like that is really not legitimate. But I will never cease to be amazed at what people can get away with. So who knows?

Nadia Mari (24:08)

Yeah, Very emotional topic. And I don't think we're going to, well, get to the bottom of it. But at least we. We talked about it a little bit. And then obviously, what will be interesting to see if there are any further developments over the next weeks, if anything more comes out of the zoo or if any statement is possibly made by the European association of Zoo and Aquarium.

Kat (24:31)

I think it's probably just going to be one of those things where they don't talk about it in hopes that it goes away, because right now it's a positive for them. And, you know, if they can just now move on. They've already posted other things on Facebook, so it's getting bumped down the line. And, you know, I think it's like a lot of negative things that happen in the world. You know, people are just going to forget, and I'm sure they hope that it just disappears.

Scott (24:59)

Yeah, I think for me, it goes back to we have to completely shift the model. We have to completely shift our idea what is acceptable for captive animal management. Because again, they're just viewed as an object.

Kat (25:11)

Yeah. And I mean, we mentioned Maya with Geeta, but we also had, in Tennessee, we had Shirley and Jenny. You know, you had two elephants that were attached at the hip, except for when Jenny would sneak off when Shirley was sleeping. But otherwise, I mean, they were side by side, always touching. And when Jenny got sick, we were worried that Shirley was gonna be really distraught and struggle, and we weren't sure what was gonna happen with her. And while Jenny was sick and while Jenny was down, Shirley would step away on occasion and she would go up the hill. She wasn't down for long, but we kind of interpreted it that Shirley just needed a break. She needed to step away. It was a lot for her. And when she did, she was there with Bunny and she would hang out with Bunny and they would do whatever elephants do when they're hanging out together. And when Jenny passed away, Shirley was actually good. Like, surprisingly to us, we were like, wow, this is so much better. Than we expected. But then what was it? Maybe a couple of years later when Bunny passed away is actually the response, more of the response we expected when Jenny passed away, you know, she didn't want to be with the other elephants. She wanted her space. She was clearly depressed. But even with that, you know, it doesn't last forever. You know, she slowly but surely opened back up and Tara went back to being the little poking the bear that she was. And they had a great relationship. And, you know, again, I can't imagine having taken away that opportunity for her to heal and process. I mean, it would be like, you know, your partner dies and they decide that you too have to be euthanized because how could you possibly go on without somebody you know, that you've loved for however many years?

Scott (27:06)

And it's hard moving on. It doesn't mean it's going to be easy for her.

Nadia Mari (27:09)

Well, that's.

Kat (27:10)

We're not dismissing that.

Scott (27:12)

No. And that's the thing, though. Give her a chance. Give her a chance. Give her a chance to show you how much she can actually process and be capable of understanding.

Nadia Mari (27:21)

Well, yeah, it's as you, as you said at the beginning, they've just totally dismissed and misunderstood what elephants are, what they are capable of, and also not even given her the chance. And they talked about their responsibility. Well, they've just like grossly neglected that responsibility in my. In my mind to, towards my. And, you know, just, just deciding that. But that goes back to what Kat quoted. They knew as soon as one goes, the other has to go as go as well, which is just absolutely ridiculous. And. Yeah, but we are. We're running out of time. Let's see what the next weeks bring.

Scott (27:55)

My God, we just have to. Again, so much to change in our world.

Kat (28:00)

Yeah. And so disappointing that there's been so much public support for it and especially from people who are like, well, the zoo was terrible, so this is the better option. It's like, well, you could have done something to try to change the zoo then. Not this.

Nadia Mari (28:16)

Yeah, it seems like the easiest fix, didn't it? Yeah, that's my, my interpretation of it, but unfortunately. Rest in peace, Maya. And I hope the people involved. Yeah. Sleep well with the weight of their decision, which, yeah, I hope in the, in the dark nights of their soul when they're in bed, that they maybe do reflect that that was. Yeah. Probably one of the worst decisions of their life. But, yes, we will continue in our next recording.

Kat (28:45)

On that happy note.

Nadia Mari (28:47)

On that happy note, we end. Bye, everybody. Have a lovely day. And if you're back to work at.

Scott (28:52)

Your lunch break, we're going to go back to ours. Sanctuary happy bubble.

Nadia Mari (28:55)

And yeah, you go back to your sanctuary happy bubble. I'm meeting up with some friends for dinner, so that will be happy. But yeah, rest in peace, my. And also, of course, rest in peace, Tanya. Very sad. Okay, then. Enjoy the rain season. Enjoy. Enjoy your day, your afternoon, and we'll catch up then in the next weeks for our next recording.

Kat (29:20)

Yes, we're gonna go appreciate our girls and all that is possible and all that happens here.

Scott (29:26)

And maybe they'll offer us a perspective that humans are not able to see through all of this.

Nadia Mari (29:31)

Yeah. Okay. Catch up soon then.

Kat (29:35)

Bye bye, bye, Nadja.

Nadia Mari (29:39)

As we wrap up this week's episode, a reminder that if you'd like to stay up to date with current events at the sanctuary, you can do so by following Global Sanctuary for Elephants on their various social media channels. You'll find all the details in the show notes. Thank you so much. And until we meet up in two weeks time, take care.