Episode 46: Not Ready to Come Out Yet (Pocha & Guille Part IV)

Summary

Global Rumblings Podcast - Episode 46: Not Ready to Come Out Yet (Pocha & Guille Part IV) Summary

Release Date: November 19, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 46 of the Global Rumblings podcast, hosted by Nadia Mari of Elephants in Japan, listeners are taken deep into the heart of the Mato Grosso region in central Brazil to explore the latest developments at the Global Sanctuary for Elephants (GSE). Co-founders Kat and Scott Blais join Nadia to discuss the ongoing challenges and triumphs related to elephant sanctuary life, focusing on the recent arrival and adaptation of two African elephants, Pocha and Guillermino (Gijamina).

Tragic News: Loss of Cookie

The episode opens with a somber announcement from Scott Blais regarding the heartbreaking death of Cookie, one of GSE's two African elephants residing in Buenos Aires. Scott shares the devastating news that, just as the sanctuary was about to receive importation permits for relocating Cookie, she tragically fell into an empty pool and passed away.

Scott [03:02]: "She fell into her pool that was empty and ended up passing away."

This loss underscores the fragile nature of sanctuary operations and the dire consequences that bureaucratic delays can have on the welfare of captive elephants. Kat adds to the emotional weight of the situation, highlighting the extensive efforts made over the years to secure the necessary permits.

Kat [05:00]: "Under no circumstances should it take two years to get a permit that had everything already behind it."

Bureaucratic Hurdles and Permit Issues

Kat and Scott delve into the bureaucratic challenges that have plagued GSE’s efforts to expand and relocate elephants. Despite receiving initial approval for importation permits from Argentina, the Brazilian government's sudden refusal to finalize the permits led to unforeseen delays. The couple expresses frustration over the illogical and inconsistent handling of permit applications, particularly criticizing the comparison of their sanctuary’s elephants to Pablo Escobar’s wild hippos in Colombia.

Scott [07:05]: "They compared us to Pablo Escobar's hippos running wild."

Kat [07:18]: "They just compared us to a drug dealer and we only have three females."

This political resistance not only hampers the sanctuary’s mission but also results in tragic outcomes, such as Cookie's untimely death. The hosts emphasize the importance of timely permit processing to ensure the safety and well-being of elephants awaiting relocation.

Arrival of Pocha and Guillermino: Initial Challenges

Shifting focus to the sanctuary's current elephant residents, Kat and Scott recount the arrival of Pocha and Guillermino from Argentina. Despite the excitement surrounding their arrival, the process was fraught with challenges. The elephants exhibited reluctance to leave their crates, a behavior rooted in their traumatic pasts and long-term captivity.

Kat [08:10]: "Their life had nothing, you know, really nothing. Concrete walls, nothing, nothing, nothing."

Scott [09:17]: "Everything's new. The new sights, new sounds. It's a substantial change compared to where they were five days earlier."

The team faced difficulties as Pocha and Guillermino preferred to stay in their crates, finding comfort in the familiarity of their confined spaces. This resistance highlighted the psychological and emotional hurdles that elephants must overcome when transitioning from captivity to a sanctuary environment.

Adaptation to Sanctuary Life

As days progressed, Pocha and Guillermino slowly began to adapt to their new surroundings. Kat and Scott describe the elephants' tentative exploration of the sanctuary, tempered by their lingering attachment to the crates.

Scott [10:01]: "It was really quite entertaining. That play, that joy that something so simple brought her."

Patience and respect were paramount as the sanctuary team allowed the elephants to acclimate at their own pace, without forcing them to leave the crates prematurely. This approach was crucial in building trust and ensuring the elephants felt safe in their new environment.

Kat [09:54]: "It's about giving them that space and that respect and allowing it all to be part of the process."

Behavior and Interactions

During their adjustment period, notable behaviors emerged as Pocha and Guillermino began to interact more with their environment and each other. The elephants engaged in activities such as mud bathing, which was a new and exhilarating experience after decades without such freedom.

Scott [10:25]: "She just had a blast. And it was really quite entertaining."

However, the elephants' former confinement left lingering effects on their behavior. They exhibited a tendency to stay within their own "world," often not acknowledging other elephants or wildlife around them.

Kat [15:00]: "They were so closed in their little own little world stuff do."

Interactions with other wildlife, including dogs and tapirs, were met with mixed reactions. While the sanctuary's dogs were respectful and kept their distance, the elephants showed discomfort around them.

Scott [19:16]: "They didn't really like the dogs."

Physical Adaptations and Environmental Interaction

Physical adaptation to the sanctuary environment was another significant aspect discussed. Pocha and Guillermino began exploring their surroundings more actively, although their previous sheltered lives meant that certain behaviors, such as avoiding obstacles or new structures, persisted.

Scott [18:08]: "For elephants that have never had obstacles in their enclosure, they actually remained without obstacles even when they were obstacles."

This led to instances where the elephants would simply walk through bushes and minor obstacles, flattening saplings and altering the landscape unintentionally.

Kat [18:35]: "It was easy to see where they had been."

Future Plans and Positive Notes

Despite the setbacks, Kat and Scott remain optimistic about the future of GSE. They provide updates on ongoing permit processes, assuring listeners that efforts to relocate more elephants are progressing. Specifically, permits for three African females, initially intended to include four, are expected imminently.

Kat [21:37]: "There's a lot of logistics, as Kat had mentioned. Waiting till we have the permits in hand is a big element to make sure it's really coming through."

Scott reinforces the commitment to expanding the sanctuary's elephant population, emphasizing the organization's dedication to providing safe spaces for these majestic animals.

Scott [21:52]: "Absolutely."

Conclusion

Episode 46 of Global Rumblings offers a heartfelt and in-depth look into the challenges faced by Global Sanctuary for Elephants. From the heartbreaking loss of Cookie due to bureaucratic delays to the meticulous and patient integration of Pocha and Guillermino into sanctuary life, Kat and Scott provide listeners with an unvarnished view of sanctuary operations. Their dedication to elephant welfare, despite numerous obstacles, serves as an inspiring testament to the power of perseverance and compassion in the realm of animal conservation.

Listeners are left with a profound understanding of the complexities involved in rescuing and rehabilitating captive elephants, as well as the emotional resilience required by those who champion their cause. The episode not only highlights the pressing need for timely and efficient permit processes but also celebrates the small victories that signify hope and healing for rescued elephants.

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Notable Quotes:

• Scott [03:02]: "She fell into her pool that was empty and ended up passing away."
• Kat [05:00]: "Under no circumstances should it take two years to get a permit that had everything already behind it."
• Scott [07:05]: "They compared us to Pablo Escobar's hippos running wild."
• Kat [08:10]: "Their life had nothing, you know, really nothing. Concrete walls, nothing, nothing, nothing."
• Scott [10:01]: "It was really quite entertaining. That play, that joy that something so simple brought her."
• Kat [09:54]: "It's about giving them that space and that respect and allowing it all to be part of the process."
• Scott [18:08]: "For elephants that have never had obstacles in their enclosure, they actually remained without obstacles even when they were obstacles."
• Scott [21:52]: "Absolutely."

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For those passionate about elephant welfare and sanctuary initiatives, Episode 46 provides a compelling narrative filled with emotional depth, insightful discussions, and a clear demonstration of the ongoing efforts to create a better world for captive elephants.

Transcript

[Nadia Mari]

Hello and welcome to Global Sanctuary for Elephants podcast. Global Rumblings. Global Sanctuary for Elephants, or GSE for short, is a non profit organization with a mission to create vast, safe spaces for captive elephants where they are able to heal physically and emotionally, often from very traumatic pasts. I'm your host, Nadia Mari, and I'll be taking you to the lush jungle of the Mato Grosso region in central Brazil, home of GSE's initial project. Elephant Sanctuary, Brazil, currently home to five female Asian elephants, lovingly referred to as the Girls. Hello everybody, this is Nadia, your host, speaking. Before we dive into today's podcast, a quick note that today's episode was recorded prior to the events at the Alberg Zoo in Denmark and was originally scheduled for release on the 5th of November. However, we felt it was important to talk about the events of Denmark straight away. We hope you enjoy today's podcast. Hi, everybody. Welcome back and thank you for joining us again this week for a new episode of Global Rumblings. We hope you didn't miss us too much during our short break, but we are back and we'll be talking more about pocha and guillermino and how they unloaded at the sanctuary. So let's head over to Brazil to say hi to Kat and Scott. Hello, you two.

[Scott]

Hello. Hello, Nadia. How are you?

[Nadia Mari]

I'm fine. I've been having withdrawal symptoms. Yes, it's been a long time.

[Scott]

Withdrawal makes it. Withdrawal makes us appreciate it all the more.

[Nadia Mari]

I was just catching up on your newsletter and it's. The rain season has started.

[Scott]

Yes, it's lovely, lovely, lovely. It was a late start to the rain season. Fire risk has been abated. Everyone's breathing better, the air is clear, the elephants are happy, nice and full of mud. We're starting to do a lot of foot trimming because their feet are nice and soft again. And everyone's doing exceptionally well. It's really a lovely time of the year.

[Nadia Mari]

Oh, excellent. So before we, we dive into how pocha kept us on the edge of our toes, not wanting to unload and enjoying having fun in her crate, there are some sad. There's some sad news that you wanted to talk about.

[Scott]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know that we really want to talk about this, but it's. It always makes us. Leaves us with a substantial heavy feeling. But the harsh reality of captivity, and that is a couple of weeks ago we finally heard that the Brazilian permit process was advancing. They were going to give us the importation permits last week. They.

[Kat]

Although we've heard that before.

[Scott]

Yeah, we Heard before.

[Kat]

You never know when to believe it.

[Scott]

And then last week it was official on their site saying it's all approved, all we had to do is pay the tax and the export import permit will be finalized. We had already started making plans and moving forward in Argentina, assuming that they were going to be telling us this and within 24 hours of it coming up on their site saying it's all approved and signed, we got the tragic news that Cookie, one of the two African elephants in our in Buenos Aires, passed away.

[Nadia Mari]

Oh dear.

[Scott]

Yeah, it's just, it's, it's just heartbreaking when you work on these relocations for so many years and you knew you had opportunities to move for sooner. Bureaucracy stops that progress causes more and more delays and you know, we don't know exactly what happened. Definitely seems to be tragedy, accident. Waiting for more details, but she seemed to have fallen into her pool that was empty and ended up passing away.

[Nadia Mari]

Oh, that is so tragic. So close to sanctuary. And how, how horrible because also the, the papers already signed, you know, it was just about.

[Kat]

Oh, just we don't have them in hand just yet.

[Scott]

No.

[Kat]

And there is always a certain level of disbelief until we actually can touch them. But I think the biggest, you know, once Argentina signed the export permits because they were the hold ups last time with Mara, we were all so excited because we were like, great, we're not going to have to do this again. We're going to just get the permits and we're going to be able to move elephants and it's going to be fantastic. And then Brazil decided they were the ones who weren't going to sign the permits this time. And it's just, you know, you have two pro bono teams working on the permit issue for years now. You have Argentina working it from their side and every relation they have that they think might be able to positively impact it, we're doing the same on our side. You know, you're reaching out to everybody from politicians to judges to influencers to so on and so on and so on and it's just too much. I mean, under no circumstances should it take two years to get a permit that had everything already behind it.

[Scott]

But it's substantially and significantly within the parameters of the lot. You know, this is not like a fringe. You know, we're on the edge of what the regulations are. No, we're well within the regulations. They've already emitted import and export permits for elephants coming from the same locations, moving to the same location. There's absolutely no reason why this should have been delayed, you know, and ends up being delayed because ultimately people don't trust and they don't invest the time to understand. And what ultimately happened was the president of the division responsible for the CITES permit was visiting a colleague of ours here in our own region. He didn't want to do official visit here because it was on his holiday time. And he was visiting with her. And she is a very good friend of the sanctuary. She, she's a bird watcher and a naturalist and a conservationist and a tour guide. She also worked in some of the state agencies for years, so she understands the bureaucracy. And he was visiting her bird watching at her house for the weekend. And she talked about the sanctuary. And when we finally met with him again, he said, I understand so much more about the sanctuary.

[Kat]

I don't know that I buy that, though. I think it just got to the point where so much pressure coming from so many places that at some point they were going to have to give. Otherwise, I mean, the next step for us was going public and it was just going to turn into, honestly, oh, I can't say, I can't curse.

[Scott]

It was going to be good. It was going to be an embarrassment for them for sure. You know, the writing on the wall is pretty clear. There's just no logic behind this. You know, when the federal agency says we don't want to emit the permits because of fear, for fear of human elephant conflict like they have in Asia, Come on, you know, let's go in Africa.

[Nadia Mari]

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

[Scott]

You know, they actually used examples in Asia.

[Nadia Mari]

What?

[Scott]

The reason why I said that they used examples from Asia and like, that's just absurd, you know, and you know, there's, there's, there's no connection. There's no.

[Kat]

They also compared us to the hippos.

[Scott]

Oh, yes. They compared us to Pablo Escobar's hippos running wild.

[Nadia Mari]

Oh, Pablo Escobar.

[Scott]

Meanwhile, you know, it's like, wow, you.

[Kat]

Just compared us to a drug dealer and we only have three females. So even if they all escaped and went rogue, they're not making babies.

[Nadia Mari]

And they're. Yeah, they're past, they're past it. They're all pre, post menopause.

[Scott]

Sure.

[Nadia Mari]

Well, Gigi's not, but anyway. Oh my God, that is. Yeah, that is, we could talk for hours on that. That's just, it's just so frustrating because, I mean, as you said, you've been there for 10 years, you've already received elephants from Argentina. So what, what's a hold up? But yeah, before we get. Before we get lost on. Yeah. Egos and politics and Vogons wanting to stamp off various permits. The permits for Pocha and Gijamina were stamped off, and after a five day trip, they arrived from Argentina. So, yes, those papers at the time were issued at the Sanctuary. So take us there. Because Pocha made unloading very exciting. I remember falling asleep with my mobile in my hand and my husband coming in and saying, she hasn't got off the. And then I picked up the next morning to see that she then did finally get out of her crate. But you were there, so tell the story.

[Scott]

You were there too, Cat.

[Kat]

I was there. You guys were all so tired. After a while, it was slightly hysterical, but long trip.

[Scott]

That was a long trip. So we were definitely a little weary at that point. Expected to come off a little bit faster than they did. A lot faster.

[Kat]

We've talked about it before. Their life had nothing, you know, really nothing. Concrete walls, nothing, nothing, nothing. And you give them this new toy, and they don't know what Sanctuary is when they get there. So they don't want to leave their new toy because it's the best thing they've had for Giza and her entire life, you know, for pocha 50 years. So you open the door and they're like, but we like our toys. We're just gonna hang out in our toys for a little while. It's like, okay.

[Scott]

And it's a lot to take in.

[Kat]

Sure.

[Scott]

You know, that's. Everything's new. The new sights, new sounds. You know, it's a substantial change compared to where they were five days earlier.

[Kat]

And people. Social media was funny because of course, we're doing lives and we're answering questions and talking to people, and people are like, why don't you try this? Why don't you try that? You know, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, well, part of it is letting them go at their own pace. It's like, yes, we can try to get them out faster, but like Scott said, it is so much. And it is. It is the basis of the trust that we want them to have with us for the rest of their time here. So it isn't about trying to trick them out. It isn't about doing anything to make them go faster. It is giving them that space that if she wants to break the water pipe and give herself a bath for I don't even know how long. I mean, again, you're talking about an elephant who hasn't had dirt in 50 years. So being able to Throw mud on herself was, again, the best thing that's happened during 50 years.

[Scott]

It started to rain, so there's a lot of water that started collecting where she had already been digging out in the. In the dirt a little bit. And when she dug the dirt a little deeper, because it's the first mud puddle that she's had forever, she found the drain pipe, and so when she drunk the brain pipe, they're coming from the rain gutters, which means there's even more water coming in front of her. And she just had a blast. And it was really quite entertaining. I mean, it's nothing that's going to be catastrophic. Something simple, easy to fix, but really wonderful to watch the. That play, that. The joy that something so simple brought her.

[Kat]

Yeah. I mean, the expression on her face was just perfect. And it was like, you know, if you want to take a while, you need to take a while. We can wait. You know, there's no reason she can't. She doesn't have to be out in 10 minutes. You know, we're not gonna grab her by your ear and pull her out. I mean, it's. It is giving them that space and that respect and allowing it to all be part of the process. But it was a long night, and a lot of chatting on social media gave people an opportunity to ask a lot of questions.

[Scott]

And a lot of people from the trip dozing off while standing in place.

[Kat]

Because we had people laying down in the elephant kitchen taking short naps. It was. Yeah, the team was definitely tagging off a little bit there, but.

[Scott]

But it was great to see, you know, and then when they did come out, just. They actually. I don't remember who came out first.

[Kat]

Pocha came out first.

[Scott]

Pocha came out first, and then we actually.

[Nadia Mari]

So what was geisha doing all the time then? She was still in on her crate on the lorry?

[Kat]

No, we had taken her off, and we actually put her crate after a while, when it seemed like poacher was just gonna take a while, we were like, well, let's give geisha an opportunity to come out. So we actually put her crate. Crate at the gates at yard one and put her crate a little bit inside of yard one to see if she wanted to come out, but she didn't want to come out either. So we have two crates both open, one open to the first yard, one open to the barn, and neither elephant really showing much of an interest in coming out at all. So it was after pocha came out, we ended up closing Gigi's crate Back up because she was still inside. And then lifting it up and putting it back at the barn and then opening it up with Poch there. And of course, we're thinking, she's gonna see her mom. She'll wanna come out then. No, she just watched her mom and stayed in her crate.

[Scott]

And then Poacha wanted to go in the crate.

[Kat]

Yes. And then after a while, Pocha wanted to go in the crate, and Giji didn't want her to go in the crate. And that's actually what ended up getting both of them out. Was this my crate? Mine. Great. And they both left, so we were like, okay, bye.

[Scott]

But they had also going back to their. This being a new toy. You know, they had become somewhat possessive of them in Argentina.

[Kat]

Oh.

[Scott]

You know, because all of this was so extended. Yeah, this is so extended. This had gone on for such a long time that the crates were there for substantially longer than they had been at the facility. So that became, you know, their domain to a certain degree. So they were very comfortable in that. They liked your crates. Love their crates. And then. Which is nice. You know, it's actually a really nice element because the shows are not just ready to run out of the crates and that the five days on the trip was super stressful. No, it's like this is home away from home. Temporary. Temporary.

[Kat]

As long as they could bring the dirt into the crates, they were thrilled.

[Nadia Mari]

I know.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Nadia Mari]

I know. Supporters do ask this, but maybe to new listeners to the podcast or who don't know that much about elephants. Did Pocha and Gijamina then hear the other elephants? Or would they feel them? Would they smell them? Not feel them, but, I mean, feel. They're not physically, but vibrationally.

[Scott]

I would say.

[Nadia Mari]

Would they have known that there are other elephants?

[Scott]

I would say without a doubt. But I think that there's an element of knowing the sterility that it came from. I don't know. Their minds were really open to that level of understanding of what it was, what this. All of this meant. Yeah. You know, I think there's. It was a little bit sensory overload.

[Kat]

Yeah. I mean, they should have been able to smell them, for sure.

[Scott]

Without a doubt.

[Kat]

But, I mean, even when skipping ahead a little bit, when lady came, when they were there, she was the first elephant who came close to them. She was in the next yard. They didn't even see her because at that point, they still weren't actually looking up and out. You know, they had gotten so used to having nothing in front of them and just kind of staring at the ground, that she's in yard one, almost near the fence. They were in yard two, and they didn't even notice she was there. And it's like, okay, there's an elephant over there. But they just.

[Scott]

They didn't see her at all.

[Kat]

They were so closed in their little. Their own little world stuff do.

[Scott]

That was one of the most fascinating parts for me, Is realizing how much they weren't looking forward.

[Kat]

Y.

[Scott]

And it was part of that was the realization of what that captive space meant, you know? You know, it's going to be. Have a negative impact, you know, that it's incredibly deprived space, you know, so. But you don't realize how their bodies and how their minds and how their, you know, daily actions had evolved to adapt to that small space. And one of it was never looking forward. It seemed like they were always looking down. Even when they started exploring Several days and weeks later, they still seemed like they weren't looking up and out, they were still looking downward.

[Kat]

Yeah, they're the only elephants We've ever had that weren't ready to leave the barn after their overnight nap. You know, usually the elephants arrive late, so we'll keep them in the barn Just so we know that they can really sleep. You know, it's a long trip, blah, blah, blah. And we opened up for them, and they did not want to go anywhere. I mean, they were playing, they were rolling in the dirt. They were super vocal. You know, there are parties every 10 minutes sometimes, but they just weren't comfortable enough yet to leave. And that was another thing. We would have people who don't really know the sanctuary, and they're like, why do you have them in cages? It's like, well, it's actually a barn, but they're not ready to leave yet. You know, they've had such a sheltered life that if they're more comfortable Staying in the barn for a little bit, that's okay. Again, it is that, you know, everybody loves autonomy in theory, until it means that it takes eight hours to get out of the crate and three days to get out of the barn. You know, the barn was open. They could have left at any point in time. And initially, it was like one step onto the patio and then back in the barn. And I think pocha was ready to leave first, but guijamino wouldn't let her. She would block her if she went to go because guillermina wasn't ready. But then guijamina ended up being the first one to step out of the barn. But of Course, she had to do it backwards because the world forward was scary. So. But first is apparently much safer.

[Scott]

And at night they would do better. Yeah, you know, when we go down at night to do the evening feed with them, you know, normally I was with one cat, was with the other and just trying to get them to explore the shoots a little bit. The little corridor that goes outside and just try a little bit of comfort with that. And, you know, they seemed a little bit more comfortable during the night, nighttime hours to be able to do that.

[Kat]

And even after they started going out, they wouldn't go out a tremendous amount during the day. And then at night they would go out a bunch, you know, between the trees that they destroyed and seeing them on camera and would go all the way up into yard three and stuff. But during the day they were still a little.

[Scott]

There's a lot to explore about what happened next. But we will say they. For elephants that have never had obstacles in their enclosure, they actually remained without obstacles even when they were obstacles. They walked through everything. If there's a bunch of trees, they just walked through the trees. They didn't go around them.

[Kat]

They had so many poor little saplings that suffered greatly at the. The bodies of poach and kishamina.

[Scott]

No, we had a lot of really nice bushes and not huge trees, but really nice, you know, semi forested area. And the elephants just, again, they wouldn't go around and they just walk through them and flatten five little baby trunks instead of just walking around the bush. But they definitely.

[Nadia Mari]

Well, that's a good way of getting rid of obstacles. Just sort of. Yeah, walk off flat.

[Scott]

Pretend they're not there.

[Nadia Mari]

Pretend they're not there.

[Kat]

It was easy to see where they had been.

[Nadia Mari]

I just had a thought that you said that they lived such a sheltered life. Do you remember how they reacted then, to the other wildlife, let's say the birds or when the dogs maybe came down with you to the barn or anything else. Lizards.

[Scott]

They didn't really like the dogs.

[Nadia Mari]

God forbid any tapir running around at night.

[Scott]

They didn't really like the dogs. But the dogs are super respectful. You know, the dogs are really, really good about listening. This is not. Not the time or space. And the dogs go somewhere else and they're really good about that. Yeah, definitely. Wildlife had a big impact and I remember seeing the tapirs and the giant trumpets that came from seeing tapirs and other wildlife. The birds, not so much. Not like we had with Mara, but I think for them, again, they were still looking down at that point. Yeah, you know, so it's slowly starting to look up and look their head up and seeing the world around them.

[Nadia Mari]

So how long did it take for them to start looking up more? Is it also a physiological thing that they have to, I don't know, their neck muscles and their eyes and everything. So the whole position of their body has to like.

[Kat]

Well, they used to put their trunks over the top of the wall all the time and they would try to collect dirt from on top of the wall and throw it at people because that's what they did at the zoo.

[Scott]

But I still think there's definitely an element of retraining your body, what it means to function in a.

[Kat]

Sure.

[Scott]

In a non subterranean world. You know, they are, you know, in that pit. So they're having to retrain. Retrain the body how to function in a normal world. I know we're running short on time. I actually want to go back to the permits for one second if I can, Nadia, because I don't want to leave people hanging because we know we talked about, you know, moving forward in Argentina and I do want to let our listeners know things are moving forward. The Buena City Zoo, Eco park, sorry, and the government are absolutely remain fully interested in poopies coming to the sanctuary. Those pieces are being put in place. We don't have dates right now. There's a lot of logistics, as Kat had mentioned. Waiting till we have the permits in hand is a big element to make sure it's really coming through. All of that is moving forward, all the communications and moving forward. There's a lot of logistics. So we do have elephants coming on the horizon. We just don't have dates yet. But stay tuned. We're working towards it and as soon as we know more, we'll let you guys know more.

[Nadia Mari]

Okay, and, and are these only the permits then for Buenos Aires for Pupi now or is it also for. For the Mendoza, for, for Kenya?

[Kat]

It was possibly. The permits were for Pupikuki and Kenya.

[Nadia Mari]

Which is now just three Africans.

[Kat]

Yeah. Tammies will have to be separate. It's only because the permits are only good for six months and there's no way that we can know if Tammy will be even remotely ready in six months to go somewhere. So just the Africans for right now.

[Nadia Mari]

Okay, well, that's a, that's a positive note to end on after the shock. Well, obviously I knew it, but obviously the shock of listeners who didn't know that the two. That there won't be three African females, but unfortunately only two. But yeah, let's hope that this spurs future, future rescues and shows everyone involved in stamping and making decisions that, yeah, time really is of essence for these, for these elephants and they so desperately need to come to sanctuary.

[Scott]

Absolutely.

[Nadia Mari]

So I'll let you go before the next thunderstorm comes down and our producer Bob has difficulty hearing you because of the downpour. I'll let you go. Enjoy your afternoon. It was great catching up after all these weeks. And yeah, we'll catch up again for our next recording.

[Scott]

Thank you, Naji. It was a pleasure to speak with you again and we look forward to giving updates in a couple of weeks of what's going on and what's new and carrying forward with coaching Kijimina's journey of hopefully a little less destruction.

[Nadia Mari]

Okay, bye. That's all that we have time for this week. We hope you enjoyed the podcast and if you did, don't forget to subscribe so you never miss another episode. Another great zero cost way to support us is by leaving a five star rating or a glowing review as this helps other people discover the podcast. Thank you so much and until we meet up in two weeks time, take care. It.