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- [00:19]
Nadia Mari
Hello and welcome to Global Sanctuary for Elephants podcast. Global Rumblings. Global Sanctuary for Elephants, or GSE for short, is a non profit organization with a mission to create vast, safe spaces for captive elephants where they are able to heal physically and emotionally, often from very traumatic pasts. I'm your host, Nadia Mari, and I'll be taking you to the lush jungle of the Mato Grosso region in central Brazil, home of GSE's initial project, Elephant Sanctuary Brazil, currently home to five female Asian elephants, lovingly referred to as the Girls. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Global Rumblings and thank you for joining us again this week for a new episode. Let's head straight, straight over to Brazil to say hi to Kat and Scott and to find out if the sanctuary has power again. Hi, you two. Hey, Nadja.
- [01:08]
Scott
Hey, Nadja. How are you?
- [01:09]
Nadia Mari
I'm fine. How are you? Hot shower, washing machine, all the mod cons, all working again?
- [01:15]
Scott
I hesitate to answer that.
- [01:18]
Kat
Yes.
- [01:20]
Nadia Mari
Oh, good.
- [01:21]
Scott
We don't want to attempt fate, but as green and lovely. I know we're not supposed to talk about the weather, but it is stunning and perfect and wet and muddy and lush green. It's perfect. So if that comes with the occasional power power outage, we'll take it.
- [01:34]
Nadia Mari
Oh, and I can hear the birds in the background, which is very cute. So always lovely. Always lovely. Okay, so I'd like to talk about two things in today's podcast. One about Pocha and guillermino, of course. Mother and daughter rescued from Argentina and relocated to elephant sanctuary Brazil in 2022. And we left off last week with you talking about, or you both talking about, the dominant behavior that Gumina had over her mother. And Scott sort of suggested or thought that one possibility for that behavior was that it was the only thing that Kijimina could control in her life, the only thing that she had in the concrete pit. But also it was the only thing that Pocha could offer her daughter. So very disturbed relationship. If you could expand on that and then somehow, if we can then segue and talk about Pocha's health. Yeah, those are the two topics I'd like to cover. Maybe start with number one, this dominant behavior. Very unnatural, as Kat explained to us.
- [02:33]
Scott
I think the first thing to go back to on that is that captive elephant behavior is very dysfunctional. You know, these elephants are not raised in a proper social structure. The social etiquette, the social rules, those are learned through a long, extended child rearing. And when you have elephants that have been pulled out of captivity, I mean, out of the wild at 2 and 3 years old and sent to a solitary environment or to live with one or two others. They don't have that guidance of what is a proper social etiquette, what is proper social behavior and to kind of punctuate that. I mean, many, many, many, many years ago, I don't remember when I was at a conference and yes, many many.
- [03:20]
Kat
Years ago back in the day when I was 10 years old in the 40s.
- [03:25]
Scott
Yeah, it seems like it was an eternity ago. Five or that long ago. I don't know. It's been forever. Way back at the beginning of the sanctuary in Tennessee, I was at a conference and I remember somebody talking about behavior. And it was Joyce Poole actually was talking gave a presentation and she was talking about wild elephant behavior compared to captive. This is at the Elephant Manners Elephant Menders Association. And she was not able to be there at the time. She did it as a recording. And then she was available. Available for question and answer. And in there she talked about behavior and the aggressive behavior you see in captivity that isn't seen in the wild. From calves to calves, from mothers to calves, from calves to mothers. And she said it just isn't seen. And that raises questions for her about what happens in captivity. What happens that social structure in captivity. And I remember immediately after she got off the phone, several people in the group of. She doesn't know what she's talking about. We see regression all the time. Yes, exactly. Reinforcing the point she made what's happening in captivity. And we have a lot of dysfunctional behavior in captivity. Even zoos that will say we have our matriarch or they explain their matriarch. And their matriarch is the one that pushes everybody around. That's not a leader, that's a bully. But they see this very atypical, very dysfunctional behavior in many social environments, many captive environments. Because social etiquette isn't learned the way it's supposed to be learned from generational development. Yeah. So this is not unique to poaching gizamena. It is unique to captivity. But what was unique for us is the strength with which the force with which geisha was aggressive to her mom.
- [05:06]
Kat
I'm listening to you.
- [05:07]
Scott
I was going to feel something in there. Nope. Yeah. So that was really unique to see. And then again, why? What was the origin of it? We can't say. You know, the only thing we can allude to it and make suggestions of is there is nothing else that captives base had had to offer. You know, they didn't have Brows. They didn't have toys, they didn't have anything, they didn't have training, they didn't have.
- [05:26]
Kat
They didn't even have the outside world to watch. I mean, there was close to as close to zero stimulation as you can get without just living in a dark box, you know, and we've talked about it before for everything they didn't have and how sterile that environment was. I mean, Gigi came out remarkably well. You know, she was born into that. There was a significant opportunity for her to have some incredibly neurotic behaviors. And yes, she did stereotype as far as her big circles that we talked about, but she didn't even do the typical stereotyping. I mean, we've known elephants in captivity that have self mutilated. I mean, they're are so many things that could have happened to her behaviorally that didn't. And if the reasoning, part of the reasoning behind that was that she was able to take out her frustrations, her boredom, her aggression, negativity, all the emotions that, you know, as a child to an adolescent, to a teen go through, if she was able to vent those on her mom, I mean, I don't.
- [06:46]
Scott
Know her mom would give you, because I got this, I can handle it, you know.
- [06:49]
Kat
No, I know.
- [06:51]
Scott
But then she also looks like, oh, that one really hurt, you know.
- [06:54]
Kat
Yeah. I'm definitely not approving of the fact that she was harsh to her mother, but I don't know if that was part of the only reason that she came out. Okay. And I'm not sure if Pocha knew that this was. It was the only thing, like you said, the only thing she could give her. The only. Yeah, I mean, I certainly don't want to call it a gift, but.
- [07:16]
Scott
No, but again, it was definitely a dysfunctional relationship with that, you know, because, you know, Pocha actually reinforced that behavior with her socialization afterwards.
- [07:28]
Kat
I mean, even when they initially were here and Gigi would do something, it's not like Pocha would even leave. You know, it's different in Mendoza. She didn't really have much of a space to walk away in. But you know, she could have left. I mean, she could have walked far away if she wanted to and she wouldn't even. A lot of times she wouldn't even step away from her. You know, Guijmina would kick her and she'd just stand there. I was like, okay. And I mean, she definitely, if she wanted to, again, not supporting elephant on elephant aggression, she could have hit her back. I mean, she could have done something in Retaliation. But she never did. She just let her do whatever she needed in that moment and kind of just absorbed it all.
- [08:18]
Scott
That actually goes back to that Elephant Managers association conference as well, because one of the specific points Joyce made was that you never see aggression from a mom to offspring. They don't reprimand with physical reprimand, but they actually see that in captivity all the time. In a lot of zoo environments, as you see aggression from mom to calf, which is, again, she said undocumented. In the wild, it's just guidance. It's just through social guidance, not through physical reprimand.
- [08:47]
Kat
I think, unfortunately, with the elephants in captivity, aggression is just an accepted part of managing elephants when it shouldn't be. You know, there is no. In most situations, there's no trying to figure out why the elephant is being aggressive. It's just this, oh, yeah, she's aggressive. You know, let's medicate her. Oh, yeah, she's aggressive. Let's separate them. Oh, yeah, she's aggressive, you know, and whatever. Whatever excuse you want to use, whatever way you want to deal with it, but it's never, almost never, trying to figure out the why behind it and to see if something can actually be done to solve that, versus just doing something to adjust the behavior.
- [09:37]
Nadia Mari
I had to think about what you said in our last recording. You said that in the wild, a mother doesn't raise her calf on her own. There's the whole herd, so there are aunts and there are sisters and other mothers. So pocha being on her own, even if there were some instincts there, becoming a mother in such a sterile environment, having no one there for her, I don't know, maybe just was normal as well, or she didn't. Just didn't have another way to deal with it. But you did say that given the autonomy and the space that your sanctuary offers, it did actually settle down or go away quite quickly. And also when they observed, as you mentioned, Kat, the other elephant, saying, there's no one else here kicking or hitting if. If you can't get what they want. So that. That behavior did. Did luckily go away.
- [10:24]
Scott
I think a lot of that had to do with more stimulation as well. Yeah, you know, so many more things to think about and do. And initially, a lot of that, what we saw here was because of her insecurities, you know, not ready for mom to go outside, or she wasn't ready to go outside and wanted to make sure her mom stayed with her. She would do a lot of controlling behavior with that. But as those insecurities subsided, and she gained more comfort and with more stimulation, all of that.
- [10:49]
Kat
And she bumped into two more dominant elephants than her. Maya and Bambi were great for her. Not that the other two weren't, but the other two are quieter. They're definitely more grandma. I mean Bambi is a little different now because of her vision loss, but she is still definitely in the hierarchy above keyshamina for sure. But having with Maya, having somebody else to play with and vent some of that energy, I mean she is in her 20s, she has a lot more energy than a typical 60 year old elephant, you know, and she's never been able to run around, she's never been able to play and you know, she's never had that space. So not only having the space and the stimulation, but Maya was happy to roughhouse with her because nobody here roughhouse with her either. She's a tank, you know, she's a very big energy tankus elephant. And I think having that and then also having Bambi who wouldn't roughhouse the same way but was very auntie with her, you know, would let her get silly, but had boundaries. And I think both of them helped her realize what, I don't know what socialization, what her dynamics, you know, what that's actually supposed to be like. That you, you know, be silly and not be aggressive. That you can find other ways to vent those emotions.
- [12:20]
Scott
And I think Bambi was more strict. Yeah, but she's still more intimidated by Maya.
- [12:27]
Kat
Well, that's because Maya's line is like much further away. But when you hit Maya's line, it is a very firm line.
- [12:34]
Scott
That's a very firm line. And Maya is not, not afraid to let her know that was the line, my dear. But to this day she will definitely egg on Bambi more and antagonize Bambi a lot more. Even though Bambi is quicker to push her back. Not in incredibly forceful way. I mean, and that's why it's kind.
- [12:57]
Kat
Of fun for her. It's that like little kid thing of sticking your finger in somebody's face and being like, I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you. That's like Guillermina's personality sometimes towards Bambi and Bambi's like, listen kid.
- [13:12]
Scott
Much more, much lower tolerance. But it's much more strict. But it's cute. It's entertaining to see that the dynamics between all of them because none of those relationships are equal or quite charming.
- [13:25]
Nadia Mari
And I picked up on your newsletter but also on your social media Post. It was actually Gigi's birthday on the 19th of November. She turned 26. So, yeah, again, a reminder. First 23 years of her life in a concrete pit with no stimulation, and then only three years now. Then two years at two. Two years at the sanctuary. So, yeah, happy birthday. Belated happy birthday to Gigi.
- [13:51]
Kat
She's a Scorpio. That explains everything.
- [13:55]
Scott
We have a handful of them here, including us.
- [13:58]
Kat
I was going to say both of us are. We're not being insulting.
- [14:02]
Nadia Mari
So talking, maybe leaving. Belated birthday girl Gigi asai, talk more about Pocha. I was reading up on some of your posts and you said that it was very wonderful to see at the sanctuary. Pocha, step aside to let Kijamina discover the sanctuary and to make friends. And I'd like to go back to what we talked about in our first episode on pochangijamina when they were both still in Mendoza, that you were in daily contact with the caregivers, looking at videos, looking at photos, and that you mentioned several times to them that something seemed off with Pocha. You have decades of experience in captive elephant welfare. You've looked at new, innumerable videos, photos, looked at elephants, but there was something off. You didn't know what it was. The caregiver said, no, no, no, Pocha's fine. You know, she's like she always is. So when she actually arrived at the sanctuary and you were able to see her physically, in person, did this. This feeling that you had that something wasn't quite right with her, did that. Did that manifest itself stronger?
- [15:06]
Kat
One of the parts of that is she didn't always look like she didn't feel well. Like, we would get, like you said, photos and videos on a regular basis and she would look fine. I mean, or at least how you would expect a bored elephant who lives in a pit to look like. But every once in a while, there would be a photo or video where you just look at her face and you're like, she looks like she doesn't feel well. And it wasn't received actually very well at all. This was a trainer that we were paying to work in Mendoza to get them trained for the sanitary requirements because nobody there was able to train them for this. So we were paying for keepers to be there. And the one time we did actually voice concern, it was not received well and we let it go because we don't see her every day. But there is that. I don't know if it's just from being around elephants so much or from actually actively practicing just really trying to see them, you know, not just look at them, not see the cute elephant, any of that. Like really look at them. That sometimes you pick up on things that other people didn't see. But we let it go because we were scolded.
- [16:30]
Scott
And I mean, to put that in perspective a little bit, it was bruised ego, you know, it was perceived as, you know, you guys aren't here. How can you tell me that I'm not seeing something in front of my face? Well, sometimes that happens. You know, we all have that. Where you see an outside perspective is actually the best perspective sometimes. Because when you're seeing it every day, you don't pick up on the same subtle changes sometimes. And you know, we have a horse vet from Cuyaba, the nearby city, and she comes out every two weeks and we do that intentionally because she doesn't get to see him all the time. And she sees things differently than we do. She sees the progression or digression of physical condition differently and she sees it in wounds and by having every two weeks she's still here frequently enough that it's not, you know, a huge catch up on what's going on, but it's enough time away just to have a fresh set of eyes coming in.
- [17:22]
Kat
For those who don't know, we do have a vet who's a caregiver who is here every day. So we're not just having a vet come in every two weeks.
- [17:30]
Scott
Trisha is in constant contact and she's getting videos and photos all the time, you know, but just that fresh shadow.
- [17:35]
Kat
Eyes, she can see it for months at a time.
- [17:36]
Scott
It does make a difference.
- [17:38]
Kat
I think the biggest thing with Pocho when she got here was knowing that something was off and not knowing what it was. But it was more not from her physical presentation, it was more from her behavior. And we could not, we didn't have long enough, we didn't know her enough. We just were trying to figure out what it could possibly be and talk about the different options. Because yes, she did step back and let Gigi make friends, which we could see being just a mom thing, you know, wanting to make sure that she's being social and blah, blah, blah. Although, you know, elephants like Hana were definitely more interested in Pocha than she was in Gigi. But Pocha would still step back, but we were seeing weird things. Like everybody would be vocalizing and being really excited and Pochu would actually like physically run over. And you could tell she was excited and you could tell she wanted to join in and that she was gonna be vocal, and at the last minute, she would stop herself and she would walk away instead. And we're like, what is holding you back? It's like, what is this wall that you were putting up? Cause she's sweet as pie. You know, we have very receptive elephants who are very physically gentle. I mean, a million more times gentle than her own daughter, you know, so we're like, what is it? What are you just prioritizing your daugh. What is going on?
- [19:10]
Scott
And a lot of it seemed that way because sometimes she would go with her daughter to in the middle of excitement, and then she would step back, you know, and let her daughter carry that forward. It was really interesting. But there was a time also, I think there was the first three weeks. It wasn't that long. I don't remember how long it was. Her energy level was very, very low. You know, her coloration wasn't great. And we went ahead and gave her a couple of vitamin shots, and she perked right back up.
- [19:40]
Kat
And she had been eating, she had been acting fine except for the low energy. And it was one of those maybe it's just all been a lot. You know, it definitely happens, you know, and knowing where she came from, her inappropriate diet, the hay, that was wrong, too much produce, you know, their dung was terrible, so on and so forth. You're not surprised when these elephants show up and they're not physically 100%. None of them have ever been that have come here. So didn't really think much of it because that improved pretty quickly. But again, it is one of those. It's hard to figure out sometimes without being able to do the level of testing that you can do on a cat or a dog or a person, you know, you're not left with a lot, unfortunately.
- [20:30]
Scott
I mean, that's part of why we spend so much time trying to understand the nuances of each individual. And I was just talking to some new caregivers this week and said the most important thing you can learn is what is normal for each individual, what is that typical behavior of theirs? And that allows you to see when something changes. But if you don't know what normal is, any changes are going to be unrecognized. So really study your elephants, really analyze. And that can start the first day that you're here, the first day you're observing, the first day you watch what we're doing with them, watch what happens during treatment, watch their posture, watch all different things, and just get to know what is normal, what is typical. Because our first line of defense is any little misstep aside from normal, any little migration from that is our first clue that something might come up. Because we don't have the tools. We don't have the diagnostic tools to know.
- [21:24]
Kat
And that's not our own personal limitations. It's just, you can't. Because of their size, all of that equipment does not work on elephants.
- [21:31]
Scott
I remember being back in the sanctuary in Tennessee. I mean, there was a time that I wasn't with one group of elephants for a while, and I was watching as they were feeding, and I asked one of the caregivers, is this normal? And she said, we never watched them eat. We don't know if it's normal. It's like, wait a minute, you know, we have to know normal. That's. That's the. That's our foundation, you know, for determining what's going on with them. And even more so because you're dealing with a wild animal who is basically inherent to hide what's what ails them, to mask what ails them. You know, they keep that within. They don't want to be.
- [22:03]
Kat
That's what keeps them alive in the wild.
- [22:05]
Scott
Absolutely.
- [22:06]
Kat
Yeah.
- [22:06]
Scott
You know, so one, you want the elephant to be able to share and be open with you, but two, you want to be able to see what those nuances are. And then when you do see something different and you do adapt or you do change or you give them a homeopathic remedy and they start recognizing that you're seeing that little difference, then they actually start to share more.
- [22:25]
Kat
But it's always a thing in the beginning because you don't have a normal. You know, you don't know these elephants and what was normal. Where they were is almost never normal once they get to sanctuary. So it's where you have to start your base and figure out what's normal. And, you know, that's. It's hard to know what was normal for her because we didn't have.
- [22:51]
Nadia Mari
You didn't have it. Now there's a party going on in the background. It's birds.
- [22:56]
Kat
It's a juvenile. One of our juvenile blackbirds is begging and trying to get any bird that comes within, like, 6 inches of it to feed it. No matter what species it is, no matter what gender it is, he doesn't care. He just wants somebody to feed him.
- [23:14]
Scott
So when we talk about normal behavior, because it does it a little bit of a side note on this with pocha, who was sweet, sweet, sweet grandma pocha. She was so wonderful, so sweet, so gentle. So Matthias was.
- [23:31]
Kat
You're gonna throw Mateus under the bus?
- [23:33]
Scott
No, I'm throwing Poacha under the bus. All right. So we had told Matthias, hey, this is what's going on. This is what we're seeing. This is what we've been doing. Everything's good. And I said, you can go ahead and feed her. I'm gonna go to the others and see how it's going on.
- [23:46]
Kat
And Matthias has worked here for years. You know, he works with all of the elephants. He is our veterinary caregiver. But he's very good with everybody. It's not like he's new.
- [23:57]
Scott
And again, we're protected contact, we're outside of the fence, all these different things. So he goes over and feeds them. And he calls me a little while later. He's like, I'm gonna need some help here. I said, okay, what's going on? It's like Pocha's throwing her food at me. It's like, what do you mean? No, she's, like, picking up her apple and throwing her apple and picking her carrot. Throwing it. I was like, she's not eating anything. He's like, no, she's just throwing everything at me one at a time. Pocha, what the hell is.
- [24:21]
Kat
And we had been working with her. We go down to do night feed, and we do, like, little bits of training, and, of course, just general care. And she's been a peach. I mean, she is so soft, so sweet, so lovely. And we're like, what?
- [24:35]
Scott
And the taste is so sweet and lovely. He's a very soft man. So, like, what is this? Pocha? So just as Gija took her frustrations out on Pocha, Pocha was taking her frustrations out on the world, out on Matias. It took a little while, actually. It took a little while for her to start saying, okay, I'm not gonna use you as my punching bag anymore. But not as a literal punching bag. But, you know, to get that frustration out, she was throwing. It's like. I'm thinking, throwing a little bit, like. No, like, drunk over her head. Throwing things down on top of him. Holy cow. It's like, I can't even get back to the foe where she's throwing some stuff at me. Like, okay, Portia.
- [25:17]
Kat
Of course, it's not, like, funny funny, but it was. He was laughing. I mean, it's one of those. She's such a good girl.
- [25:27]
Nadia Mari
Until she's not.
- [25:28]
Scott
No. And then we go and feed her, and she's like, perfect princess again. It's like, what are you doing? You have to be nice to Mateus. He's your veterinarian. Maybe it's just that it's a veterinarian blood.
- [25:42]
Kat
Yeah.
- [25:43]
Nadia Mari
That reminds me of what you said, that just because they come to sanctuary, not the listeners think she's at sanctuary. So why was she unhappy and frustrated? I mean, just because she comes to sanctuary doesn't mean the last. Whatever, how many years, decades. She was at the zoo then just forgot. She's still got, you know, she still has frustrations and things that she has to work through from. From that time. So, yes, unfortunately, poor Mateus. Yes, I did have the privilege of meeting him, and as you say, a very soft and gentle man. So he. He took the brunt of that.
- [26:14]
Kat
He did. And, you know, people always say, well, they'll know that you have good intentions. And, yes, that's all well and good, and they do know, you know, they know you better than you know yourself half the time before you even walk up to them, but that doesn't mean that they're going to be open and loving to you. Like you just said, it dismisses what they went through for the five decades before that. You know, they don't heal overnight. And although some places don't like to talk about all of the issues that do exist with them in sanctuary, it doesn't fix everything. And it still is captivity. You know, we have fences. They can't just go where they want and do what they want. And if they want to walk for six hours and go, they can't. You know, so there, yes, there are things from their past that they still have to deal with, but sanctuary is not perfect. You know, we have our limitations as well.
- [27:06]
Scott
So, yeah, sanctuary is not perfect. But you know what? It does offer that space to go through that healing process.
- [27:12]
Kat
Sure.
- [27:13]
Scott
And whatever that may be, and it's something that we've talked about forever, is honoring that process for them. And if Poachin needs to have somebody she vents towards for a little while, or if she needs Matthias to step away for a little while, so be it.
- [27:25]
Kat
I mean, you were it for lady.
- [27:28]
Scott
Yeah.
- [27:28]
Kat
You were definitely lady's punching bag when she first arrived. She was perfect princess with me. She never did anything wrong when I was with her. Scott was a different story, but.
- [27:41]
Scott
And part of that's our learning and part of where they're at and where they're at, and it's part of their comfort with each individual.
- [27:46]
Kat
Sure.
- [27:47]
Scott
You know, and we just. Our job is to honor that space, what it is needed, and sometimes laugh.
- [27:52]
Kat
About it, sometimes cry yourself to sleep over it.
- [27:56]
Scott
Sometimes personally internally frustrated of what have I done to upset this little lady? But, you know, it's part of what's so intriguing about what we do and you know, what it is that each elephant will need and adapting to the evolution that they go through as well. Because what they need now is not what they're going to need in six weeks, you know, or necessarily who they're going to need in six weeks, you know, maybe it will need that open up, you know, to a minute a pochamentes relationship later on, you know, looking at Maya and all her evolution, you know, Gita was it. Gita was everything to her. And then nobody was. And then all of a sudden it's Maya and Bambi and again, maybe living her best life now that she has Bambi and looking after Bambi and no. So it's just not part of that journey that we all go through through life. But add the element of extreme trauma and it becomes all the more complex.
- [28:49]
Nadia Mari
Okay, well, thanks for sharing that, all your insights. Very, very fascinating. Interesting episode again though, I will let you go for your busy afternoon and the little bird party in the background. Still very sweet. So, yes, thanks for your time.
- [29:05]
Kat
Oh, it's sweet. Until he's been doing it for like seven days straight and he just keeps doing it and his mother has left. Now I am getting ready to leave the house as well. He can just own the house.
- [29:17]
Scott
I came back yesterday and said, mom, Mom, Mom, Mom, Mom. Like, holy cow. She's like, this has been going on for hours now.
- [29:24]
Nadia Mari
Oh yeah, go out.
- [29:27]
Scott
And it is a wild bird. So everybody know this is a wild bird hanging out on the veranda because we live in the middle of the forest.
- [29:32]
Kat
So open space. We are not keeping it anywhere. It just chooses to sit there and beg on our porch.
- [29:38]
Nadia Mari
Yeah, well, maybe, maybe you can send a photo and I'll ask Bob to put it into. Into the video for us. So. Okay, I'll let you go and then we'll catch up again for our next recording, which is actually in fact the last recording then for this year. And we said last time, where has the year gone? And talking about where the year went or where the where the year has gone. Don't forget that you can support Global Sanctuary Fair elephants by Purch your Christmas gifts on their wonderful online store. I see there is still a sale on and not quite sure if whether it will still be on when this podcast comes out on the 17th of December, but still there. And yes, you can purchase T shirts and ornaments and become an Ellie guardian and support your work like that. Okay, then I'll let you go. Good night from Germany and have a lovely day.
- [30:28]
Scott
Thank you, Nadia. It's always a pleasure.
- [30:30]
Kat
Bye, Nadjia.
- [30:31]
Nadia Mari
Thank you. Bye. As we wrap up this week's episode, a reminder that if you'd like to stay up to date with current events at the sanctuary, you can do so by following Global Sanctuary for Elephants on their various social media channels. You'll find all the details in the show notes. Thank you so much. And until we meet up in two weeks time, take care, Sa.